The Delphi Murders: First Person: Doug Carter Part One

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet Episode: The Delphi Murders: First Person: Doug Carter Part One
Release Date: January 28, 2025

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee engage in an in-depth conversation with Doug Carter, the recently retired Indiana State Police Superintendent. Carter provides a first-hand account of his 40-year law enforcement career, with a particular focus on his pivotal role in the high-profile Delphi Murders case. This episode offers listeners a nuanced exploration of the complexities involved in managing a massive criminal investigation, leadership challenges, and the emotional toll such cases can have on those involved.

Doug Carter's Background

Doug Carter begins by sharing his roots in law enforcement, tracing his passion back to his upbringing in LaPorte, Indiana. Growing up in a family dedicated to public service, with his father serving as a state trooper, Carter was influenced early on to follow a similar path.

“I grew up in a state police family. My dad was a state trooper... I decided I was either going to be a lawyer or a trooper like my dad and I chose that path.” (05:14)

Carter's career trajectory saw him spending over 18 years as a state trooper in Hamilton County before transitioning into the role of sheriff—a position he held for two consecutive terms. His appointment as Superintendent of the Indiana State Police in 2012 by then-Governor Mike Pence marked a significant milestone in his career.

Handling the Delphi Murders

The crux of the episode centers around Carter's involvement in the Delphi Murders investigation, a case that has captivated national attention. Carter recounts the initial moments of receiving the distressing news and the swift mobilization that followed.

“I was in my office that morning when I was briefed on the search... I remember standing on the hill, talking to Tobe, overlooking the bodies.” (11:02)

As the investigation unfolded, Carter had to navigate the logistical complexities of coordinating multiple agencies and managing resources under immense public scrutiny. He emphasizes the emotional burden of dealing with such a tragic case.

“You deal with death, dying and destruction every day of your life. And there was something different about this.” (11:42)

Leadership Insights

Carter delves into his leadership philosophy, highlighting the principles of servant leadership and the importance of empathy within a law enforcement context.

“Just don't ever ask anybody to do what you haven't done and care deeply about other people.” (07:35)

He shares an anecdote about Lieutenant Jerry Holman, illustrating his commitment to the well-being of his team.

“Holman was spending untold hours working on the case... Carter insisted that Holman take a break and see the concert.” (05:55)

This approach not only fosters a supportive work environment but also underscores Carter's dedication to maintaining morale during prolonged investigations.

Public Perception and Media Interaction

Being the public face of the Delphi investigation brought its own set of challenges. Carter discusses the intense public and media scrutiny, particularly surrounding the "New Direction" press conference and the release of composite sketches.

“Our message is working. We want people to continue to think about this.” (25:35)

He reflects on the mixed reactions to the sketches, acknowledging both the support and criticism they received. Carter candidly addresses how his words were analyzed and sometimes misinterpreted by the public.

“I hate that. I can't help it because I never said anything I didn't mean.” (25:56)

Managing Inter-Agency Collaboration

One of the significant hurdles Carter faced was coordinating efforts among various law enforcement agencies without falling into territorial disputes. He emphasizes the importance of unified command and collaborative strategies.

“We did it together with a unified command, a structure that allowed us to consolidate some of our resources.” (16:22)

Carter credits the FBI and other agencies for their invaluable support, particularly in managing information flow and utilizing systems like Orion to streamline data handling.

Emotional Toll and Personal Reflections

Carter does not shy away from discussing the emotional impact of the Delphi case, both on himself and his team. He contrasts his resilience with his father's experience, who became cynical over his career.

“Don't become cynical like me. Use those words that you just used to me on.” (09:30)

This personal testimony underscores the mental and emotional challenges faced by law enforcement officers in the wake of traumatic cases.

Relationship with Victims' Families

Throughout the investigation, maintaining a strong rapport with the victims' families was paramount. Carter speaks highly of the families of Abby and Libby, acknowledging their strength and unwavering support.

“They were still so kind to us. I'll never forget that.” (21:16)

He describes a mutual respect and a shared sense of purpose in seeking justice for the victims, which provided inspiration and motivation during the prolonged investigation.

Navigating Public Speculation and Conspiracy Theories

Carter addresses the proliferation of conspiracy theories and public speculation surrounding the case, particularly fueled by social media and media narratives.

“There was a lot of criticism of me from the defense for handling that press conference the way I did.” (27:01)

He emphasizes the importance of sticking to factual reporting and resisting the urge to be derailed by unfounded theories, focusing instead on methodical investigation and maintaining public trust.

Conclusion and Continuing Efforts

As the episode wraps up, Carter reflects on the ongoing nature of the investigation and his unwavering belief in a positive outcome.

“I believe that good always prevails and that it would be solved.” (22:19)

He expresses gratitude towards his team and the community of Delphi, reinforcing his commitment to seeking justice for Abby and Libby.

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Notable Quotes:

• Doug Carter (05:14): “I grew up in a state police family. My dad was a state trooper... I decided I was either going to be a lawyer or a trooper like my dad and I chose that path.”

• Doug Carter (07:35): “Just don't ever ask anybody to do what you haven't done and care deeply about other people.”

• Doug Carter (11:02): “I was in my office that morning when I was briefed on the search... I remember standing on the hill, talking to Tobe, overlooking the bodies.”

• Doug Carter (25:56): “I hate that. I can't help it because I never said anything I didn't mean.”

• Doug Carter (22:19): “I believe that good always prevails and that it would be solved.”

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This episode of Murder Sheet offers a profound look into the intricacies of managing a large-scale criminal investigation, the burdens of leadership in law enforcement, and the enduring human spirit in the face of tragedy. Doug Carter's candid reflections provide valuable insights for true crime enthusiasts and those interested in the inner workings of criminal investigations.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Doug Carter]

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[Anya Cain]

Sorry, do we legally have to say that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, this is just how I talk.

[Doug Carter]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Doug Carter]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Of two children for many people now, retired Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter became the face of the Delphi investigation. Some of those following the case would even carefully scrutinize every syllable he uttered, hoping to find hidden meanings about what was really going on in the case. But the public side of the job was only a small part of Superintendent Carter's responsibilities. He also needed to manage the logistics of the investigation to ensure the people working on the case had a place to stay and food to eat.

[Anya Cain]

Doug Carter retired earlier this month. He was kind enough to take the time last week to talk with us about the Delphi case, which remains one of the most significant cases in his 40 year law enforcement career.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I should note that early on in this conversation I referenced an anecdote we heard from Lieutenant Jerry Holman, who of course played a key role in the investigation. Basically, Holman was spending untold hours working on the case. He had tickets for a concert he planned to attend with his wife, but he decided to skip that event so he could use those hours to instead work more on the case. Carter heard about this and insisted that Holman take the break and see the concert. He also arranged for Holman to have a nice dinner first. Lt. Holman told us that this taught him something about leadership and not only taking care of yourself, but also caring for the people who serve under you. Now that the Gag order is lifted. Carter and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case. This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with him. They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well. These episodes are part of our first person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking to us, email [e-mail] this is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The Delphi First Person. Doug Carter Part one.

[Anya Cain]

It's I guess to get started. Can you tell us a little bit about your background? Where did, where do you come from?

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, well, I grew up in laporte, Indiana. I grew up in a, in a state police family. My dad was a state trooper out of the Dunes park post. Dad's no longer there and I decided I was either going to be a lawyer or a trooper like my dad and I chose that path. So I started with the state police in July of 1984 and spent almost 18 and a half years as a state trooper in this county in Hamilton. Was convinced to try and to run for share, which I never intended to do. I did and I won and served two consecutive terms in Hamilton County. And then Mike Pence changed my Life Forever in 2012 when he appointed me the superintendent of State Police.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have to ask, you say your dad was a state trooper. Did he give you any advice when you went into this field yourself?

[Doug Carter]

He did. He gave me a lot of advice. I got to see him obviously growing up all those formative years and seeing how he cared deeply about other people and cared deeply about the citizens that he was sworn to protect and those that lived by us. And so I really had instilled that sense of service very early on in my lifetime. And he got to experience a little bit of my time as a superintendent before he passed away. So that was pretty cool.

[Anya Cain]

What made you decide law enforcement over the law?

[Doug Carter]

Not really sure. Looking back, I'm not really sure. I guess I just saw I lived with a guy that I so admired and I wanted to do all I could do to be like him. My uncle was a lawyer, so that was the other reason. That was the other career path, possibly. But yeah, I'm glad I chose this path, I guess.

[Anya Cain]

One thing you mentioned, being sheriff of Hamilton county, how is that different from being superintendent? What are the kind of different considerations? County sheriff versus running?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, my gosh.

[Anya Cain]

I bet they're pretty different.

[Doug Carter]

They're very different. Yeah, they're very, very different. Obviously, being the elected sheriff, you're elected by the people. It was very difficult to get away in that role, especially in Hamilton county from 2003 to 2010. It was a very, very fast moving ship. A lot happening here. Exponential growth. One of the top five largest, fastest growing counties in the country. So that created its whole set of local challenges. But the scope of the state police is just enormous. And especially because we provide law enforcement services all over Indiana and either the urban, the rural, or a suburban type setting. And in those urban areas or those rural areas, we have to have a footprint. And it's very difficult to do. But it was also amazing to me what happened and continues to happen over the course of any given day in the state. It just rips your guts out. Yeah. So there's a lot of differences, similarities. Numbers are relative. Supervision of people and solving complex problems remain the same.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You were the sheriff. You were the leader of the sheriff's department here in Hamilton County. You're the leader of the Indiana state police for 12 years. You must have thought a lot. What makes a good leader?

[Doug Carter]

Just don't ever ask anybody to do what you haven't done and care deeply about other people. And I think those are the two tenets to core leadership values. And as long as you never lose sight of, everybody can be replaced. And servant leadership was very important to Mike Pence when he interviewed me. And the servant leadership issue came up. And I'll never forget that conversation. It was a really good one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What is servant leadership?

[Doug Carter]

It's not about you. It's about everything you do for other people, especially when no one's looking. So you've just got to care deeply about other people. And I think people see it. I think it's not something you can pretend to do. Either you are or you aren't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jerry Holman, who we'll be talking about a little bit later, you told us that you taught him something about leadership. And I wonder if you remember this anecdote involves A concert. Eric Church concert. You remember that? I can refresh your memory.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah. Help me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was working very hard on this, on the Delphi investigation. It was a concert.

[Doug Carter]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can you share that story?

[Doug Carter]

Yeah. About him going down there? Yeah, yeah. It was just an opportunity to, you know, again, to give somebody an opportunity for a break and find a little bit of sense of normalcy. This takes, like many other professions, an enormous toll on your family. And I saw Jerry going into a place that I was really worried about him, so he needed a break. And I was able to help facilitate that break with a concert down here in Indianapolis. So I'm glad he took me up on it. If he didn't, I was going to tell him to order him to order him to. He was going to go see her Cherry.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I feel like then he implemented that people for his direct reports. And so it's like it kind of. It went down the chain.

[Doug Carter]

I didn't teach Jerry anything. He already knew what that was all about. He's a pretty regimented guy, but he cares deeply about other people.

[Anya Cain]

I want to ask you, I mean, you mentioned the toll it takes on individuals in law enforcement and their families. How do you avoid. I mean, you've been doing this, this is your whole career, law enforcement. How do you avoid becoming cynical?

[Doug Carter]

Gosh dang it, you guys, you know it. I saw my dad become really cynical and hateful over the course of his career. And he, when he, he retired. And in those days, most police officer troopers retired at 20 years. They made absolutely no money. So they always would seem most of. Generally, if they didn't promote up through the ranks, they would retire at that 20 or 21, 22 year range and then go out and find something else to do. But my dad became pretty cynical. Then not long before he died, I had a meeting with him. Not meeting with him, but I shared some time with him, some private time. And he said, he called me Duggar. I can't believe I'm even saying that. But he did. He did. And don't become cynical like me. Use those words that you just used to me on. And I said, dad, I'm not. But I'm fighting it and I probably will fight it for the rest of my life.

[Anya Cain]

Just a conscious effort to.

[Doug Carter]

You got to. Oh, you have to. There's so much coming, not just in me, but coming in all of us, that sometimes it's very difficult to process that. Right. I think once you think you've got it figured out, you better watch out because I believe there's something else in charge of us, not ourselves.

[Anya Cain]

So I want to go into the Delphi case specifically. Where were you when you first heard about something happening in Delphi? Do you remember that?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, I do. Yeah. I was in my office in downtown Indianapolis. There was some brief information from the night before on Sunday, But I was in my office that morning when the. When I was briefed on the search. We weren't really involved very much at that time. Actually, we weren't involved. But as just continued to. Time continued to tick on, we became very involved. And I remember where I was standing when I got the phone call that two bodies had been found by the river. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And what was your immediate. Do you remember your immediate reaction and what that felt like?

[Doug Carter]

Well, you know, you deal with death, dying and destruction every day of your life. And there was something different about this. I think part of the thing that bothered me early on and came to be very true was I didn't know a lot about Carroll county, but I knew that main roads didn't pass through it, and it was a very rural place, but I had no idea what was about to happen. Generally, for the 12 years I was the superintendent, I would get bad news almost every day. Not always like this, of course, but bad news almost every day.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And how do you handle that?

[Doug Carter]

I don't have any idea, Kevin. I don't know. You know, you just muddle through it. You have to. If not me, then who? And if I have an opportunity in the course of my lifetime to have a positive effect on other people, I'm going to try it and do it, not have any regrets.

[Anya Cain]

How quickly did you get up to Carroll county after this happened?

[Doug Carter]

As fast as my Dodge Charger would get me there, which is pretty fast. I was. I was up there probably within an hour and a half, maybe an hour and 40 minutes.

[Anya Cain]

Were you able to go to or near the scene?

[Doug Carter]

I did.

[Anya Cain]

What was that like?

[Doug Carter]

Again, it was. It's a bit of a. It's a bit of a blur because there was so much information, you know, and you guys know this better than I do, but we. We can get information pretty quickly. And so there was a flurry of information that I was receiving, and I realized that my job was going to be to do the very best I could to control or at least try and mitigate the madness that was about to happen. And that madness being natural, not anybody doing anything wrong, but we were going to have to have a large footprint as a state police agency. I knew that, but I didn't know at that point how large. So my job is to support those that know more about this than I do, because I was never a detective in my entire career and my job was going to be to support them.

[Anya Cain]

So those early days, there's often been talk of all this. So many agencies coming in to help, so much resources, and the benefit of that, and then the downside of that is that it's a management nightmare. Can you tell us a bit about that and how you, as a leader are kind of.

[Doug Carter]

You just summarized it pretty darn well, actually.

[Anya Cain]

I answered, you're welcome.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Thank you very much. Now I've got some questions for you. No, no.

[Anya Cain]

The tables have turned.

[Doug Carter]

I didn't know it was about to happen. I did not know what was about to happen. We learned a lot over the course of those first five or six months, really, not just first five or six days, first five or six months. And I'm not critical of any. I'm not going to be critical of anyone that tried to do the right thing. Especially in those early days. This had gained momentum in ways I never dreamt that it would and as quicker than I ever thought it possible. So the only thing we could do was work this a day at a time, as methodically as we could. There was no group think. I think there's a lot of inference out there that maybe there was. There was not. And we were fussing with each other early on. I was fussing with people because I was told them to go home after 36 hours and they wouldn't go home. So there was a lot that happened early on that we learned a lot about. We learned about our limitations. That's where the FBI really came into this in a very, very positive way. That Orion system had the capability. They could fire that up pretty quickly and they could take in a lot of information in a short period of time. We had the ability to take it in, but then what'd we do with it? We didn't have the ability to collate it. We didn't have the ability to prioritize it or to share it. How are we going to share it? Because as time went on, we knew that no matter what happened, we were going to get to a point where we were going to start over or we were going to get to a point where there'd be an arrest and we'd start over. So the common theme was we're going to start over eventually. So how do we manage that now? And that Orion system was very, very, very helpful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Early on, I'm curious, you mentioned, as in your job, you got bad news every day. Unfortunately, a lot of terrible things happened in a state the size of Indiana every day. Were you keeping up to date on this particular investigation?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, gosh, yes, I was. Because, remember, it was also just right after the floor fire. But again, I had no idea at that time what that all meant.

[Anya Cain]

You mentioned working with other agencies, the FBI's contributions. Of course, this was a, you know, Carroll county case. The ISP is no stranger to working with other agencies in cooperating. But how do you ensure that that happens smoothly where it doesn't get into some sort of territorial fighting?

[Doug Carter]

You know, it will. You. You know, it's going to. You know, this. This was, quote, Carroll County's case, but I. I don't think they. That they'd ever had a homicide investigation before, at least with the current folks that were there. So I remember standing on the hill, talking to Tobe, overlooking the bodies, and I said, tobe, you don't have the capacity to do this. We're going to do it together. And that's exactly what we did. We did it together with a unified command, a structure that allowed us to consolidate some of our resources. Other than the impd, I don't think there's another agency out there that could have done this just because of the magnitude of it. We're not better than anybody. We're just different. We have more capacity just because of the size of our agency. But I also recognize that we're all type A personalities trying to solve problems, and that means we're going to fuss with each other. And if we didn't, we probably would have not done the right things.

[Anya Cain]

You'd get into that group, think?

[Doug Carter]

Absolutely. For sure. But there was such a flurry of activity. You guys remember where we initially were? In that co op building north and west of the courthouse. It was unbelievable. I had to send planners up from special operations to manage food. I mean, it was unbelievable. At that time, the state police didn't have the capacity to buy things like water, like food, like hotel rooms. And there was this complicated structure at that time. And I remember thinking, well, I'm breathing air. I'm fixing this. Because these guys, the last thing in the world they need to worry about is food and water and where they're going to sleep at night for three hours, then go back to work. So I called the governor direct, and it was Governor Holcomb at the time. And within eight hours, we had the complete capacity and ability to do anything that we needed to do now with accountability, of course, and I wanted that level of accountability to be there. But we could actually use a purchase card to buy food and to buy water. And then all of a sudden, all of these. These wonderful, wonderful families in Delphi started bringing the best food ever. We could have had a small army for a month and a half. So early on, those were the kinds of things that I was getting. I was worried about as I saw these guys and gals just working tirelessly.

[Anya Cain]

Do you have any memories from those early days of just things that struck you or just that stand out in your mind as something that you'll never forget?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, the different rooms in that co op building and the work that was being done in those rooms. What was on the walls? Whiteboards. Frustration, Confusion. And all of the human emotion that we're not supposed to have that we all have. Yeah, it was a flurry of activity, and I really was proud of what was created very, very early and very, very quickly, honestly.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm curious, you know, as you're being briefed on this, I mean, were there early thoughts on the kind of person that might have done this or what you were looking for?

[Doug Carter]

Not necessarily in my mind, because again, I. That's. This is outside of my purview. It's not something. Something I've never done before. There were obviously lots of thoughts and considerations, but I know this sounds cliche and I've said it a thousand times, but we. I don't remember anybody talking about necessarily moving forward because of what they think. That's when I really learned the difference between what I think and what I know. And they're very different. They're very, very different. I don't think initially, the first time I realized there was probably a local connection was when I walked across the High Bridge myself. And I spent a lot of time out there. As time went on. I remember specifically the first time I went across that bridge. I crawled back. It was horrible. It was frightening. And I'm not afraid of much, but it was really frightening. And when people think of the High Bridge, unless they've been out there, they really don't understand it. Right. But you're 70ft off the deck, and I don't think a train's been on those tracks since 1929, 1930. Ties were missing. They were dilapidated. It swayed. You could feel the movement of the bridge. So I think one of my first thoughts was in my own mind, this isn't going to be somebody that just happened to stop in here and Walked across that bridge. I just, I. I just can't imagine that being the case because it was. It was terrifying.

[Anya Cain]

When did you walk it? Like, how early on was that?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, within the. Within a day.

[Anya Cain]

Wow.

[Doug Carter]

Very early. I was there most of the night that first night, and then I was back pretty routinely for the first five or six weeks. Only in a support role.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I'm curious. You mentioned you didn't really know Delphi or Carroll county well, and then you talked about it's the sort of place where people are, like, giving you food. Can you talk a little bit about the Delphi you came to know over these last years?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, and just tremendously kind people. So kind. You couldn't walk down the street without somebody coming up to you and saying thank you. You know, for a community that will never be the same, that was rocked to the very core of their conscience. I heard so many times we never locked our house. We never locked our car. We left our keys in. We know everybody here, and if we don't know somebody, we know a family member of them. But even with all of that happening and even as a frustration began to be very ever present, they were still so kind to us. I'll never forget that. I will never, ever, ever forget that.

[Anya Cain]

I want to jump ahead to the New Direction press conference, but I mean, there's so much that we as members of the public do not know about. You know, all the effort and time spent on this case. You know, we kind of all see things when there's like a big press conference or something's released. But anything else you wanted to add about those kind of early years or anything like that?

[Doug Carter]

Well, yeah, I think. I think it's important that. That your audience, which is very broad, knows that this, as this gained momentum, it was very difficult to manage. And the notion that there's a, you know, that there was a cover up early on. I'm not sure why a person would think that, because I think today, especially in today's world, if you have the secret between two people, it's only good if one of them's dead. Right. So the notion of a cover up is just. It doesn't seem logical to me at all. But I also understand the frustration over time. I'm trying to understand the frustration over time because I felt it too. I never let on that I was concerned about this. This not being solved, but I was concerned over time. But really in my heart, I believe that good always prevails and that it would. That it would be solved. Did I Hope it was going to be while I was here. I was hoping that because I saw the enormous effort that human beings put forth to do that. I think the world grabbed a hold of this in large part because it's everywhere. USA. I've used that terminology before too. The innocence of two 13 and 14 year old girls. There's so much, there was so much to it not to take away from other homicides, other violent crimes, the flora fires, none of that. But there were circumstances and dynamics in play here that made it different. And it's probably the most complex homicide investigation in Indiana's history, certainly within the isp. And I can't think of anyone other locally that would be more complex because of the involvement and the notoriety of it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I feel like, and I'd be interested in your take on this, but I felt like one thing that really made this case become so high profile was the fact that Libby took a video of killer of this bridge guy lumbering towards them. And I felt like that incited the public in a way where people felt like, oh, we can solve this if we keep talking and keep staring at this image. It almost made people feel like they could help, which can be good, which can be very good, but can also be, be bad. Because there's limits to. I think sometimes, you know, if no one recognizes the person, there's limits to what? Some of the speculation.

[Doug Carter]

How can it be that no one recognized him? I'm haunted by that question. You're right. I can't ever think of a case, at least in my time. We had a video. We have a sound bite, we have movement, close. I've said those things very publicly before. And if you knew someone that was close to you, you would know that gait, you would know that walk, you would know that sound, whatever it might be. That is a question that I hope one day, if I make it to heaven, I get to find out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Along the similar lines, part of your job was doing things and thinking about things that are largely invisible to the general public. You talk about getting food and supplies to people, so you're very busy. Were you aware of the level of interest this was generating on social media?

[Doug Carter]

Yes, but I didn't really understand it. Yes, but I didn't understand it. I think that's the best answer I can give you. I don't have a social media presence by design, but it was gaining momentum very, very quickly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Were you aware that there were people who were studying every word you said?

[Doug Carter]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How'd that make you feel?

[Doug Carter]

Our message is Working. We want people to continue to think about this. I was very strategic in what I said. I tried to be because I wanted to continue to keep it in the forefront. You know, it wasn't intended for me to be the face of this. That was not the intent. But I think over time, it just organically kind of happened. And I guess because of the position that I held and there was just such a tension. There was such a tension. No one's ever asked me the question like that, Kevin. So I guess I don't know in what detail, but I do know there's a lot of people that hate me because of things that I've said or the things they've taken that I've said and twisted them. I hate that. I can't help it because I never said anything I didn't mean. So while I don't understand the depth and the magnitude of what they have done with my words, I. I'm certainly cognizant of the review.

[Anya Cain]

So I think a lot of that culminated with the New Direction press conference in 2019. What can you tell us about sort of. I mean, it wasn't like you guys just woke up one day and said, let's do this.

[Doug Carter]

There was a lot of debate about the sketch. And I know I've taken a lot of heat over the sketches, and that's okay.

[Anya Cain]

I think we gave you some heat over the sketch. I'm not gonna lie.

[Doug Carter]

That's okay. No, and that's. That's okay. But these guys and gals have been involved in this from the very beginning. Their intent is to not just keep this in the forefront, but it's also to keep people talking to us. And I've said all along that sketch is not a photograph. The first sketch was not a photograph. It's some type of a recollection of a human mind and what somebody saw. Second sketch, same thing. And there was a lot of debate about whether or not to do that. And I told them towards the end of that, no matter what we do here, we're going to be wrong. So let me do it. No matter what we do, I do not want you to get derailed. I don't want you to become focused on something other than Abby and Libby in this community. So that decision was made. And I've said all along, and I believed it, that if you put those two sketches together and the arrest is made, you take them apart and there's killer. There are similarities between the both sketches, that will be the killer, essentially. But there was. There were A lot of. There were a lot of consternation about that. And again, that's okay. And I'm not. I'm not going to be critical of the criticism of me. I'm not. I'm just not. But what happened over time is people kept talking about what they think and became what they knew. And then a narrative came out that really kind of threw us out of balance. Again, I'm not mad about that, because if those people, all of those people hate us, like us, hate me, like me, it doesn't matter. Kept us in the forefront of people's minds. And I think it really talked about the power of the human spirit and what people are actually capable of doing now. I hope we learned a lot from it, too, that, that maybe we ought to maybe get away from this instantaneous conspiracy theory because it's not been solved. But again, I'm not one to criticize people that I don't understand, and I'm not going to do that today.

[Anya Cain]

What was the narrative that kind of threw you guys off balance?

[Doug Carter]

Well, there were so many of them. Right. There were so many narratives out there with different people and, and who, what where, when and why, and the FBI and Ron Logan and all of those things that happened that there were just suddenly, then there was this divide in the message. And we own some of that, matter of fact, we own a lot of it. But what we did at the time is what we thought was right.

[Anya Cain]

You mentioned kind of, you know, you being the face of it allowed you to take some heat that maybe would have been going to investigators or if they'd been more of the face of it. You know, one thing I know from speaking with Lieutenant Holman is that new direction was also meant to. It was kind of a press conference, it seems like, for one, for the killer to see if there could be an effort to have him make a move, address him directly. Can you tell us about.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

What planning went into being? You know, having you do that a lot.

[Doug Carter]

A lot. I've got to be careful.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Doug Carter]

There was a lot of criticism of me from the defense for doing. Handling that press conference the way I did. And there was a thought that this had to be an FBI person that would have made that, that, that conclusion based on the study of the killer, that we would have made a comment that he could be in the room. And none of that's true. I mean, that. That all came organically and frankly, independently. I remember in the, in the kitchen in that room, Tony Liggett and I had a real significant Argument about this. Direct. The direct link. And I told him that I appreciated his advice, but that's not what I was. I. I wasn't going to not do that. And it all stemmed from my initial experience on the bridge by myself. And we'd. Now, we'd been at that. Let's see, it was two and a half years, I think that was in April So, of 19, something like that. So, yeah, we're two years and. Two years and a couple months out. We had to pick the scab off again. We just had to. And we had to really send a very strong message. I believe he was watching that day, and he might have been in the room. I don't know. It was only about a mile from us.

[Anya Cain]

Was. Yeah. So. So we. There's no way of knowing if Richard Allen was in the room.

[Doug Carter]

No, there's not.

[Anya Cain]

Were there, like, people taking down names of people who showed up?

[Kevin Greenlee]

There were.

[Doug Carter]

Okay, there were. But, you know, that's the best of intentions.

[Anya Cain]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One question I think a lot of our listeners would want us to ask you about that press conference is you made reference to the movie the Shack.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Was there any special meaning behind that?

[Doug Carter]

No. You know, when you said earlier, Kevin, about people taking my words, that's probably the most significant one. And I happened to. I watched that movie and I, I. The end. At the end of the, at the end of it, the. The peacefulness of that field because I was. I. I was. I had been haunted by how Abby and Libby must have felt at the end. One of them had to watch the other one die, and that's haunted me. But I also. I also believe there's a place in heaven. I, I do. I just. I really do believe that, you know, I. That main movie, as silly as it sounds, made me realize that there's a special place there for them, and that's where they are.

[Anya Cain]

It struck me, too, as kind of an appeal to the killer. If there's any sort of compassion left in whoever did this awful thing. Do the right thing.

[Doug Carter]

Sure.

[Anya Cain]

You know, get right with truth.

[Doug Carter]

Set you free.

[Anya Cain]

You know, and, and you kind of alluded to this, but I'm just curious. You know, our understanding is that some. Some folks from Pennsylvania were kind of helping with. With this process, with new direction. And, I mean, a lot of people were speculating, oh, this is all from FBI profilers or whatnot, but it really sounded like you also spoke from the heart. So how do you balance wanting to say specific things with kind of speaking from the heart and not going Just on a script.

[Doug Carter]

I'm not a script kind of guy. Yeah. I'm not generally don't prepare remarks. Kind of wing it. And that got me. It's got me in trouble. But again, I'm not. Not gonna apologize for that. I'm an emotional guy. I'm not gonna apologize for that. I don't know how a person sees what's going on around them with all of the things these people are dealing with. And remember, that wasn't the only crime that occurred from that day on. There are all these other things that were occurring too, not just with the Delphi murders, but around Indiana. And we had troopers traveling from southern Indiana, from the north and the south and the east and the west, and spending time there. And I got to see that I was so lucky. I got to see that level of commitment. And I've seen so much death in my lifetime that I've not gotten used to it. I'm not. And it's. It's hurtful. And so, yeah, that criticism of emotion, you know, fine, criticize me. I'm good with it. Right.

[Anya Cain]

And this was the other thing that came out. You mentioned this in your talk recently post conviction press conference. And then Tobe Lesnby, when we talked to him, he also alluded to it, and we were just curious. You mentioned then that there was an argument between you and then Sheriff Lesenby there. He kind of explained it as, you know, he wanted to be up there too, with you. And what kind of had been discussed in the planning was more of one person being out there. And is. Is that sort of how you would characterize it? What are your memories of that?

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, yeah. There's no question. I think we have to be very careful with messaging, though. And two people could say something very, very similar, but it could be taken in a very different way. And we weren't able to do that that time. We had to be as right as we could be. And yeah, I'm sure that was an issue. He's elected chair for the county, but it was way beyond him at that point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We talked a little bit about. Obviously, a lot of other bad stuff was going on at this time, and some of it was at least brought out because of the Delphi case. I'm thinking of the Kagan Klein lead in the work of Dave Vito.

[Doug Carter]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can you talk a little bit about some of that?

[Doug Carter]

No. I mean, we just continued. We worked every single thing that we could possibly work, and Keegan Klein ended up in prison where he belongs. So. No, I mean, There were several of those kinds of investigations that came out of this with good people trying to do the right thing, giving us information. But again, it made it more complicated, didn't it? Because the perception of that, what people think versus what they knew was very, very different. So that will all come out in time.

[Anya Cain]

What did you make of the work done by Detective Vito in that case?

[Doug Carter]

I love that guy. Dave Vito is just the very best of us. He's so kind and he's so smart and he's so committed, and you could just see it, you could just sense it in him that he is so very focused on doing the right thing. And there were so many examples, guys, about, we do this, we're going to be wrong to a lot of people, but we're still right. We believe we're doing the right thing, and we did it anyway.

[Anya Cain]

What were other examples of that?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, my gosh. Everything we said over time, no matter what, if we didn't say anything, we were wrong. If we did say something, we were wrong because we should have said it before. So I learned that do the right thing each time and just let the chips fall where they may. David Vito is a great detective. I'm. I'm going to look forward to watching his career. He's. He's got a very bright future ahead of him.

[Anya Cain]

And then I'm curious, you know, as all this is going on, you know, the investigation's still ongoing. People did not stop working it, even if it wasn't in the, you know, immediate public eye. But, you know, what was. What was law enforcement and I guess your specific relationship like with the victims families throughout this time, as it's unsolved, but you're having to assure them we're still working this.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, I mean, I think our relationship has been very good. They've been frustrated and upset, as they should have been with us, because there were things we knew we wouldn't tell them. But Mike and Becky and Anna and the rest of the family, if I called them right now, they'd be at my side, and I feel the same with them. It was actually, frankly, quite inspirational to see all the things that they did to try and find out who did this.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks very much to Doug Carter for taking the time to talk with us. We so appreciate it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the murder sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy. Like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make they're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a gamble for you. A bit of a risk. You got something a bit different?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Helps us out before we wrap up this episode. Can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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