The Delphi Murders: First Person: Doug Carter Part Two

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet
Episode: The Delphi Murders: First Person: Doug Carter Part Two
Release Date: January 28, 2025

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Introduction

In the second installment of their two-part interview series, Murder Sheet hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee engage in a profound conversation with retired Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter. As the central figure in the extensive investigation of the tragic Delphi murders, Carter provides an in-depth first-person account of the case's progression, the challenges faced during the investigation, and the emotional toll it has taken on him personally and professionally.

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Background and the Arrest of Richard Allen

The discussion begins with Carter recounting a pivotal moment in the investigation—the impending arrest of Richard Allen. [06:09] Carter explains that while on vacation in Barcelona, Spain, he received a critical call from Nick McLean, indicating that an arrest was imminent. This revelation marked a significant turning point after years of relentless investigation.

Notable Quote:

"Nick said, within the next few days, we'll have an arrest."
— Doug Carter [06:09]

Carter reflects on his initial emotions, expecting "total relief" but grappling with the realization that the families of the victims would also have to begin the painful process of seeking justice anew. [06:47]

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Media Coverage and Its Impact

A substantial portion of the conversation delves into the media's role during the pretrial phase. Carter expresses frustration over the sensationalized and often one-sided media narratives that emerged, which he believes damaged public perception of the justice system. He emphasizes the importance of accountability, especially when breaches like the leak of crime scene photos occurred. [09:14]

Notable Quotes:

"I absolutely do [blame the media]."
— Doug Carter [15:14]

"It created a public narrative that was not in favor of the system, didn't it?"
— Doug Carter [18:11]

Carter criticizes the media for not providing balanced coverage and for contributing to harassment of law enforcement officers involved in the case. He underscores the detrimental effects of such coverage on both the investigation and the families of the victims. [16:49]

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Trial Testimony and Judicial Processes

Carter shares his experience testifying during the trial, noting the brevity of his appearance—lasting only four minutes. He expresses uncertainty about the defense's strategy and reflects on the separation of witness testimonies. [12:51]

Notable Quote:

"When Guy said that on the radio, I called him within an hour or so, and I said, thank you for what he said."
— Doug Carter [21:07]

He praises the jury's role in objectively assessing the case, free from external pressures and media influence, highlighting the fundamental principles of the justice system. Carter also lauds the prosecutorial team, particularly Nick McLeon, for their preparedness and dedication. [24:25]

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Emotional and Personal Reflections

Carter candidly discusses the emotional burden of the case, describing feelings of sadness and being "dead inside" due to the horrific nature of the crimes. He speaks about the lasting impact on his life, including the toll it took on his mental health and personal relationships. [42:35]

Notable Quote:

"You cannot unsee that. That's why I was so offended by the pictures. You can't unsee."
— Doug Carter [37:58]

Carter also touches upon the unresolved aspects of the case, such as the unsolved floor fire, expressing hope for future closure. He underscores the deep connections formed with fellow investigators and the families of the victims, describing them as inextricably linked for life. [39:56]

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Lessons Learned and Advice for Future Investigations

Reflecting on the investigative process, Carter offers valuable advice to other law enforcement agencies handling high-profile cases. He emphasizes the importance of strategic planning, unified command structures, and maintaining consistent communication to avoid reactive measures that may hinder the investigation. [30:08]

Notable Quote:

"Find a space where you can sit uninterrupted, unimpeded, nobody has access to you. And very early on start strategizing about what might happen."
— Doug Carter [30:10]

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Carter concludes by expressing pride in the investigative team and the prosecutorial efforts that led to a sense of closure in the courtroom. He reflects on the broader implications for law enforcement and the justice system, advocating for open conversations about racial dynamics and accountability within policing. [35:30]

Notable Quote:

"This was a trial in front of his peers, and the only people that mattered were them."
— Doug Carter [21:07]

The episode offers a comprehensive and heartfelt exploration of a complex true crime case, shedding light on the intricacies of law enforcement, the challenges of media interaction, and the personal sacrifices made by those dedicated to seeking justice.

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Key Takeaways:

• Impact of Media: Sensationalized media coverage can undermine public trust in the justice system and lead to harassment of law enforcement officers.

• Emotional Toll: High-profile cases inflict significant emotional and psychological stress on investigators and their families.

• Importance of Strategy: Proactive strategic planning and unified command are crucial in managing long-term investigations effectively.

• Role of the Jury: The impartiality and responsibility of the jury are fundamental to the fairness of the judicial process.

• Accountability and Transparency: Maintaining accountability within law enforcement and fostering transparent communication can strengthen community trust.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

1. "Nick said, within the next few days, we'll have an arrest."
   — Doug Carter [06:09]

2. "I absolutely do [blame the media]."
   — Doug Carter [15:14]

3. "You cannot unsee that. That's why I was so offended by the pictures. You can't unsee."
   — Doug Carter [37:58]

4. "Find a space where you can sit uninterrupted, unimpeded, nobody has access to you. And very early on start strategizing about what might happen."
   — Doug Carter [30:10]

5. "This was a trial in front of his peers, and the only people that mattered were them."
   — Doug Carter [21:07]

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Conclusion

Doug Carter's first-person account provides invaluable insights into the complexities of the Delphi murders investigation, highlighting both the procedural challenges and the profound human emotions involved. Murder Sheet effectively captures the essence of Carter's experiences, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of one of Indiana's most haunting true crime cases.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Doug Carter]

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[Anya Cain]

Sorry, do we legally have to say that?

[Doug Carter]

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[Anya Cain]

And they do good too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Doug Carter]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Now, retired Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter became the face of the years long investigation into the Delphi murders. This is the second of our two part conversation with him. If you've not listened to Part one, please go back and do so. Our conversation with Carter today will pick up with him learning about the forthcoming arrest of Richard Allen.

[Anya Cain]

Now that the gag order is lifted, Doug Carter and others are free to speak about their experiences with the Delphi case. These episodes are part of our first person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with first hand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking with us, email [e-mail] this is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now. My name is Anya Cain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Anya Cain]

I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

The Delphi Murders First Person Doug Carter Part two and then I guess jumping into the Richard Allen side of things. How did you learn. Where were you when you heard that Kathy Shank had uncovered this new promising lead?

[Doug Carter]

Barcelona, Spain.

[Anya Cain]

Where in Barcelona?

[Doug Carter]

I gotta ask. We were on. My wife and I went on. I hadn't taken any vacation time at all in 10 years. And we had this amazing opportunity with some friends to take a trip to Italy. So we did. We went away. Matter of fact, a little bit of a funny story. The governor's chief of staff, his name is Earl Goode. He is the kindest. He's like a father to me. He's just the most wonderful human being on the planet. And I remember going over to see Earl and say, earl, we have this opportunity. I've never been out of the country other than to Mexico. And we had this real amazing opportunity with some dear friends to take this trip. It's three weeks long. And he looked up at me, he said, well, Mr. Superintendent, we'll see when you get back. I'll never forget. It's so cool. He's just the coolest guy ever. And so we ended up going on this trip.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But anyway, I've got to interrupt for a second. You mentioned earlier it was important for people like Jerry Holman to take breaks.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why didn't you take a vacation in 10 years?

[Doug Carter]

Because I'm a workaholic, I guess. I guess my. My biggest fear is if I'm gone, something happens to a trooper I'm responsible for. And it happened three times while I was the superintendent. We lost three troopers in the line of duty. And I didn't. I did not want to be on the other side of the world when something happened. So that's why I never. I never did. I never really did. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So you're in Barcelona, so.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, we're coming back home.

[Anya Cain]

First of all, I just gotta ask. Did you see La Grotta Familia?

[Doug Carter]

That'll never be done.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I went there and I'm Catholic, so I was.

[Doug Carter]

So am I. It was so cool.

[Anya Cain]

I think I heard you were Catholic. I was like, yeah, it is so beautiful. That was one of the most meaningful, like, spiritual things I've ever felt.

[Doug Carter]

I didn't really understand old until I was in Italy and Dubrovnik, Croatia, and then those areas. And, you know, old here is a century and a half.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, right.

[Doug Carter]

Europe over there is 3,000, 2,000 years ago.

[Anya Cain]

You know, 1500s is crazy.

[Doug Carter]

Yes. And to be able to stand on the same stone in the little. Yeah, we had a wonderful, wonderful trip. The first week, I was a nervous wreck. Just an absolute nervous wreck. And we were on a relatively small ship in the Mediterranean, and we had a different port almost every day. And then the second week, I'm thinking, ooh, this is kind of nice. I got. I can feel my blood pressure going down. And the third week, I had no blood pressure. So, yeah, it was a really good trip, and my wife and I needed that, and we were there with some. Just lifelong, dear, dear friends. So, anyway, enough about me.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, sorry. Sorry. That's off the record. I just.

[Doug Carter]

No, it's good stuff. It's all good stuff. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's leave it at okay.

[Doug Carter]

It's good stuff. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Sorry. I derailed us. Okay.

[Doug Carter]

So I got a call from Nick McLean in Barcelona, Spain.

[Anya Cain]

And what. Tell us about that call.

[Doug Carter]

Well, he. He. He said, within the next few days, we'll have an arrest. Yeah. And. And I. I had. I'd. I'd been catching glimpses of. Of what was happening here during that period of time with Jerry and David, and. But that was the. That was really the. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Do you remember how you felt?

[Doug Carter]

Not like I thought I would. Not like I thought. It took me a while to process that because we'd all. Everybody had been through so much. It took me a while to process it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What did you expect to feel?

[Doug Carter]

Total relief. Total relief. But I also remembered them saying, all those years, for all those years, no matter what happens, if we get to the end, we don't have anybody start over. And at that time, we had, you know, what, 80 some thousand tips. And then the totality. That hit me. Oh, gosh, these guys, they got to start all over now. Yeah, it was. It was a bizarre feeling.

[Anya Cain]

Can you talk about that, starting over? Because I think people may not understand, you know, what it means to get someone. But that's just the beginning. You have to prepare for trial.

[Doug Carter]

Sure, yeah. Preparing for trial. I mean, it's. That. That's making the arrest is step one, but that's. It's not meaningful at all until a jury finds someone guilty. Right. And so that. That process, all that. That process began, and it was very difficult, but it. It began in earnest for sure.

[Anya Cain]

How do you, as superintendent, support not only your own team, the state police officers who worked on this case, but, I mean, just the entire unified command, like throughout that process is now we're entering a pretrial phase and going toward.

[Doug Carter]

Trial, spending time with them all. And at that point, it becomes Nick's case. Once it's presented to the state and the judge signed that probable cause affidavit and Richard Allen was arrested, it's no longer our case. Now there's an enormous amount of work yet to do, but it was really, really from that point forward, it was very much pivoting around Nick and he was very prepared.

[Anya Cain]

One thing we noticed is oftentimes, you know, you would come to some of the pre trial hearings, especially some of the ones where, you know, it might be a. A trooper had to go up on the stand or there'd be, you know, kind of controversy swirling in the press or whatever. Was that sort of an intentional show.

[Doug Carter]

Of support for 100%? Yeah. 100%, yeah. Again, the work didn't stop when he was arrested and that, that level of intentional presence was important to me.

[Anya Cain]

Tell us about that, what that meant for showing your support for your team.

[Doug Carter]

I don't know. You'd have to ask them. But I follow them anywhere. I would do anything for them, but I would also hold them accountable and I think they know that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that is very true. I remember I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but when the leak of the crime scene photos happened, we reached out to Jerry Holman pretty quickly and I admit that.

[Doug Carter]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. I'll keep saying that to you guys.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, thanks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We owed it to the girls.

[Anya Cain]

I'm just sorry we couldn't stop it from out there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But he said, I don't know if this came from the defense or if this came from a state trooper, but if it's one of our guys, we're going to hold them accountable. So it feels like you've always been interested in accountability.

[Doug Carter]

Oh, gosh. Oh my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it would have been one of our own, I. The outcome would have been very different than what it was with, with these two guys, you know, so, yeah, I mean, it would have been a very. I would have handled that very swiftly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I was struck at the time. His attitude was, we're going to get to the bottom of it no matter where it leads.

[Doug Carter]

Right, right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And at the same time we've mentioned this publicly, we also contacted people from the defense side and they didn't seem to have much of an interest in pursuing it. How did this leak affect the families?

[Doug Carter]

I can't even begin to be able to explain what that must have been like for them. I'm sure they're not considering saying I understand, because I don't. But how do you process seeing your daughter or your granddaughter or daughter murdered, Whether that be in the middle of the woods where they died, afraid, or on a table where an autopsy was being Completed. It's disgusting. It's completely, completely disgusting. Those pictures are important, that they were taken, that they were certainly shared with people that needed to see them. But I don't know how you ever get over that. I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

Some people have tried to downplay the leak. What do you. What do you make of that?

[Doug Carter]

I don't know how you possibly downplay it, but. Okay.

[Anya Cain]

I want to go into some of the. I think, what would be honestly characterized as attacks against law enforcement and individual law enforcement officers in. In this case, in the pretrial phase and during trial. How did it feel like to see that happen?

[Doug Carter]

I couldn't protect them. I couldn't protect them. We took. We took, and I. I think I made my feelings pretty clear the last press conference, but we took the gag order very seriously from Judge Gaul. I don't pretend to understand the decision she had to make, why she did, why she didn't. It's not for me to decide. That's why she's a judge, and I'm just a simple policeman. But. So when you get an order from the court, you abide by that order of the court. And that's exactly what we did. All the while, it didn't feel like everybody else had to. They could say, do what they want, write what they want, create a public narrative if they wanted, whatever that might be. And we just had to sit back and take it. And we're big people, but, boy, did I ever want to fire back at him.

[Anya Cain]

Tell us about that frustration, seeing that.

[Doug Carter]

Oh, it was brutal. It's brutal. It's like watching your family get beat up every single day, and there's nothing you can do about it. Son keeps getting off the bus with a bloody nose, and you can't do anything about it. So it's maybe not a fair analogy, but that's kind of how it felt. And I didn't understand the why of it. Again, not for me to decide.

[Anya Cain]

So, jumping forward to trial, what is testifying like for you?

[Doug Carter]

Well, it lasted four minutes.

[Anya Cain]

I know. What do you make of that?

[Doug Carter]

No idea. I spent. Probably spent 20 hours preparing, and I had no idea what that strategy was. That was up to Rossi and Baldwin. I'm not critical of them. I mean, if that's what they needed to do, but there was a separation of witnesses, so that was the only time I could be in that trial. So I came to a different. I came to a conclusion. Maybe that's why, but I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

How did you feel getting off? Like, off the stand after literally four minutes.

[Doug Carter]

Well, I looked at the judge like I remember looking over.

[Anya Cain]

I remember that.

[Doug Carter]

And I just kind of got the you're, you're done look.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, as you say, you weren't able to be at the trial, but certainly behind the scenes you must have seen the hard work that Nicholas McLelan, James Luttrell and Stacey Deener. Did you have any comments about them?

[Doug Carter]

You know, we were very careful not talk about it during the trial. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't get up until I testified. I didn't get updates again. I didn't want any, do want any, anything coming from the judge that we did what we shouldn't do. But as, as I watched the local news coverage, I finally shut it off. I couldn't take it because I felt like with a couple of the networks it was very one sided. They would lay, you know, they'd drop a keyword or a buzzword and then they would talk about that keyword or buzzword from the defense perspective, but never how the state responded to it. Do I think it was intentional? I hope not. But it probably was. I hope not. But it was sensationalism and I finally couldn't listen to it anymore. And I had so many people during that period of time say, geez, what about that? What about this? This is what I heard on the news last night. And my response would be, calm down, we only heard one side, not the other. And it's up to the jury, not you. So let's, let's just everybody take a breath. But it was very difficult.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I know certainly I've heard that some of the police officers, investigators received a lot of harassment from members of the public, some harassing emails and things of that nature. Do you believe the media bears any sort of responsibility for inspiring that sort of harassment by putting out misleading information?

[Doug Carter]

I do. I absolutely do. And you know, It's. In my 40 year career, I had wonderful relationships with the media. And even when it's hard for me, when you got to talk about what you don't want to talk about, you got to talk about maybe an embarrassing situation with a police officer that I had to deal with. They made a bad decision, they committed a crime, they committed a felony, they're going to prison, whatever that might be. So I was always very candid and very forthright with them and I thought we had that, I thought that was a two way street. But I learned that it wasn't. The media is solely responsible for keeping this in the public Eye. There's no question about that for this whole period of time. But I also think that they could have been very, very helpful, not for law enforcement, but for the community that's watching this sometime, not all the time, and to calm down some of the rhetoric, I think they could have reported on that better, more conclusively, with a little bit of depth and understanding, because they carry tremendous weight. Your message, your people that are out there around the country that listen to you guys, and you have tremendous influence over those that you listen to that listen to you. I think maybe, I hope we could do better next time. We did have a debrief with the media. We had quarterly meetings with the local media, and I was able to attend that. One of the last things I did with the media in November or December, no, it would have been after December 20th. I said what I'm saying to you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was really striking to me, being in that courtroom every day and witnessing things and then seeing it covered completely differently in the media.

[Doug Carter]

It's fascinating you say that. I've heard you've said. I heard you guys have said that before, and that's fascinating to me. And isn't it ironic? I don't know. What's the why of that?

[Anya Cain]

You know, I'll ask you. Because you, you're obvious, you're, you're savvy about the media. You've dealt with the media for years as superintendent. It's not like, why, why was the coverage. So what was your take on that?

[Doug Carter]

I thought it was completely unfair, and I don't think it had anything to do with the system of justice that we have. As a matter of fact, I think it was detrimental to it. And you could see who was interacting with who on breaks and at lunchtime outside the courtroom and the courthouse with members of the media. It wasn't the state.

[Anya Cain]

I guess one thing that came to my mind is I felt like a lot of people didn't seem to understand how criminal cases work, which surprised me. Yeah. And I felt like maybe that was part of it, but it really. We felt like we were losing our minds at one point because it was just like, we're seeing this play out. You know, it seems pretty concrete, and it's being reported on in a way that just doesn't resemble reality at all.

[Doug Carter]

It created a public narrative that was not in favor of the system, didn't it?

[Anya Cain]

Right.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, it did. It did. And I think it was very deliberate.

[Anya Cain]

I, I just, I guess it's like, I, I. You would have expected it to Be more down the middle. I guess I would have expected it to be a lot more down the middle. Not favoring law enforcement, not favoring the state, not favoring the defense.

[Doug Carter]

Just absolutely right.

[Anya Cain]

Here's what's going on. And it really seemed a lot more sensationalized than that. And I was. I was surprised. I mean, not everyone. Some people, I thought, did a good job, but. But generally it was shocking. I want to go back to what I feel like we all expected you to testify about a trial. What the defense had been building up in their opening statement, by the way, that.

[Doug Carter]

Just remember, I can only talk about what was talked about in trial.

[Anya Cain]

I understand, but you meant. This does go back to something you didn't know. The positive relationship with the FBI, this narrative that came out in trial, was that the Indiana State Police and the FBI had some massive falling out and you booted them out of the case. I mean, is there anything you can comment on that?

[Doug Carter]

There comes a certain point in time where you have to consolidate resources for the good, the bad, and the ugly, whatever it might be. It doesn't really make any difference if we were getting along, if we were fussing with each other, it really doesn't make any difference. But we had to consolidate resources and make sure that everything. That everything that was out there was in the same place. We took a lot of heat over discovery, and there was a concerted effort to bring all this under one roof. We have a requirement that we record interviews, audio and visual. The FBI doesn't. They don't have to do that. They operate under different rules. And there was no federal nexus. There was no homicide. Federal nexus to them. So they were hugely beneficial to us. But there comes a point in time where we have to bring it all to one roof, and that's what we did. And that's pretty much what I could say about it.

[Anya Cain]

It sounds like a logistical situation, more so than. Like some.

[Doug Carter]

More. More. More of that than anything else.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you mentioned you. You got the call about Abby and Libby. You were there as quickly as you can. You're involved in this ever since then. Years of work, years of caring about this case, caring about the families. What was it like to be in the courtroom when the verdict was delivered?

[Doug Carter]

There was a certain peace that came over me that I could never even describe to you. I can't. It was the culmination of a sixth of my life for the community, for the. For Richard Allen's family, for the defense, for the families, for all the people you guys have been involved in this from the very beginning as well. There was just a sense of closure that was so peaceful. And that's. I think, also you might want to ask me about this. I don't know if it's on your questions or not, but what Guy Reliford said to me, probably the most profound thing I've heard in regards to our system in my lifetime. Because everybody's got a perspective, right? We just talked about that. How you report that is subjective, but everybody's got a perspective. But the only perspective that mattered was that jury, because no one, not even the judge, saw what they saw or heard or felt. They were the ones that could see all. They could see the state. They could see the defense. They could see the witnesses come and go. They could see how they were breathing sitting on the stand. They could see eye contact. What were those clues? What were those indicators of truthfulness? And that's what our system allows, right? And when Guy said that on the radio, I called him within an hour or so, and I said, because Guy and I have had our differences, but he's a good guy. He's really smart, and he takes my phone calls. And I just called him to tell him thank you for what he said. I don't think he understood the profoundness of what that meant. And I hope that citizens and people that are paying attention to this understand that, too. This wasn't about Richard Allen on trial facing Jerry Holman or Doug Carter or Nick McClelan or Dave Vito or Ben Rector. The list could go on and on and on. This was a trial in front of his peers, and the only people that mattered were them. It really helped me when I. When he said that, and I thought about that, because we have a singular perspective, and that's sometimes unfair. They didn't have a singular perspective.

[Anya Cain]

So just 16 everyday people who sort of came together and they gave.

[Doug Carter]

Look how much of their life they gave up. Can you imagine having no contact with the outside world for what, 16, 17 days? No phone, no news, no nothing.

[Anya Cain]

And they're bombarded with these horrible, horrible images.

[Doug Carter]

Oh, my gosh. They can never unsee that. They'll never be able to unsee. So kudos to them. Kudos to them. When I was in the courtroom, both during my brief testimony and also at the end, the. The attentiveness was really pretty profound. So they took their responsibility pretty seriously. I was proud of them. And by the way, I would have been proud of him either way.

[Anya Cain]

I'm curious. What did you do after the verdict? Like, did you just Go home or like, what happened?

[Doug Carter]

No, I went back. I went back over to Nick's office, and it was not a celebratory. It wasn't celebratory at all. I spent some time with the family across the street with, with. With the detectives, with people that were in the courthouse. And it was just kind of a somber time. Nothing celebratory about it. This isn't. And I've never felt that. I've never felt celebratory about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You mentioned Nick. What was your relationship like with Nick McClellan?

[Doug Carter]

Nick was as prepared a prosecutor as I have ever seen in my career. And I've seen a lot of prepared prosecutors. Stacy and Jim, the synergy that the three of them had together, I could not be more proud of them. I just couldn't be more proud of them. And this is a young prosecutor that was a defense attorney, right. In a community where he grew up. And he never had a trial like this. Very few prosecutors in Indiana have. So he'll go down as the guy that did. He had that trial of a century. And I could not have been more proud of his preparedness. I'm not going to tell you. Initially, I was concerned, but, man, did he not. In my opinion, he knocked it out of the park because he was prepared at every single hearing. He was prepared. And I'll tell you, he was a taskmaster for us. And that's awesome. I love that. Again, if people could have seen it, then this notion of conspiracy theories would probably at least be diminished.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How is he a taskmaster?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, gosh, organized. He was organized. I remember being in the office one afternoon and I don't even remember what this was for. Pre trial planning, maybe. I don't remember. And there was a question about a statement, and I'm not even. I don't remember. It wasn't about me. It was about. He and Jerry were talking about this statement and there were boxes of information. He knew exactly what box to go to to find that statement, and he did. Within a minute and a half, he had. He had it in thousands of pages of documents, and he was able to pull that statement out. Jerry was wrong, by the way, which was kind of cool, too. So they kind of, you know, they fussed with each other a little bit about that, but he was very, very, very organized and he expected it from everybody. He made us better.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jerry, of course, is Jerry Hulman. You talked a little bit about him in your remarks after the sentencing. Can you tell us a little bit about Jerry Fullman and what he Means to you.

[Doug Carter]

Oh, my gosh. He's like a brother I never had. I didn't know Jerry Holman. I mean, he had. He had served up in the Lafayette area, so for four, three years or so as a superintendent, I knew of him, but I never had spent a whole lot of time with him. I prided myself on knowing every face on the ISP and a lot of the names. And Jerry was just one of those guys that stood out. He went to the FBI National Academy, and my father went there in 1979, and he did a lot of research on my dad while he was there and brought me back a coffee cup. And they were both marines, so he brought me back a coin. And I just thought to myself, there's something special about him. And my favorite movie or TV show ever is Gomer Powell, usmc. And he looked just like Sergeant Carter with that flat top. So there was always kind of a kindred spirit there with Jerry and I. But then I got to see what he did when no one was looking. I got to watch him from afar and see the level of commitment, because somebody had to pull all this together, and no one on the planet was capable of that other than Jerry Holman. I don't mean any disrespect to Tony or Kevin or Tobe or Steve Mullins. No one had the capability of doing that because he did not care what people thought. He can be gruff, he can be stubborn, but at the end of the day, what he's doing is making sure that he does everything within his power to keep us on the straight and narrow. And he upset people a lot. That means he did his job, and I'm proud of him for that. And he took all that. He took all of it on the chin. Jerry Holman is one of the finest human beings I've ever known.

[Anya Cain]

I wanted to ask you guys. I mean, have gotten, obviously, at times, a lot of flak over this case, and we talked about some of that.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Looking back, are there things that if you could go back in time, you could say, hey, guys, handle this differently, or.

[Doug Carter]

Oh, yes, of course. Of course. We were tasked with performing a surgery we had never done before, and it was painful. We would lighten that pain. Gosh, I don't know about you guys. You might live perfect lives.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, we do.

[Doug Carter]

But I look back at yesterday and think, dang it, I wish I'd have said that to my wife and not this. Or, you know, I wish I'd called my mom yesterday. But I didn't. So, I mean, yes, the answer is 100% yes. But the real task is did we do what we knew was wrong when we did it? People hate that. I say that, but what else do we have? Right? What else do we have? We never sat in a room and said we want to send out this message because we know it's going to be confusing, it's going to screw everything up, people are going to be pissed off at us, but we're going to let the chips fall where they may. We'd never said that we tried to anticipate a response based upon what we did because there was very little we had. People thought we had more than we had. So what we did have, we had to keep very close to the vest. Make sense?

[Anya Cain]

It does.

[Doug Carter]

So, yes, from a strategy perspective, we did the very best we could over a period of time. And, and, but yeah, there's lots of opportunity for. To learn.

[Anya Cain]

What would your advice be based on this experience to another agency dealing with another high profile case.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Learnings that you kind of gleaned.

[Doug Carter]

I've been asked that from around the country, actually. And I think the message, even though people hate this, too slow as fast, slow down, slow down. Find a space where you can sit uninterrupted, unimpeded, nobody has access to you. And very early on start strategizing about what might happen. We were in a very react, we reacted. That's all we knew to do. We reacted to things early on that maybe we shouldn't have. So to have that center, that brain place where the key players are there, Unified Command is explained. A lot of people up there did not understand Unified Command and never had to do it before. What does Unified Command mean? How do we process information? How do we share information? Who's going to be doing what? Who's holding this task group accountable for reporting structures and failure of equipment and recording devices and all of those things are so very important that we did the best we could at that time. But we learned so much about it. And I think by the time we really got our arms around it, it was a little bit too late. And this might get me in a little trouble, but that's okay. Everything's fine for the first three days. But after that, people get tired and they get frustrated and they're going to leave and go on. We knew we couldn't do that. So the excitement's the wrong word, the thrill is wrong word. But the adrenaline of the first couple days when something like this happens, it just really hits everybody at their soul. But then eventually, it's kind of like a funeral. Eventually, everybody that came has got to go back to their lives. And we knew we couldn't do that. We knew. We know how long this wake's going to last or how long this funeral is going to take, but we're not going anywhere. So, I mean, a long answer to that question, but it really is. It's a good question. And I hope people reach out. It doesn't matter. The color of your shirt. I had zero tolerance for that. Zero tolerance for, this is mine, this is ours. Stop it. You know, that's just. That's selfish. Stop it. This is about those two little girls, not about you or me or who's going to be on the camera. None of that mattered. None of that mattered. But there had to be a consistent message, and generally that comes from a single person.

[Anya Cain]

So what do you think is the biggest misconception out there about this case that's taken hold with the public?

[Doug Carter]

That there was some. That there was some planned conspiracy and we knew this all along. That's very hurtful.

[Anya Cain]

It's also patently ridiculous.

[Doug Carter]

It is. That we didn't do everything that we could possibly do, you know, that we didn't release information that could have been sensationalized to. To affect an outcome. Maybe that outcome is newsworthy, maybe it's not. I don't, you know, I don't know. I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

I'm curious. Just you, you, you were superintendent for so long, and I'm just. Is this something you've noticed? Has there been a shift from criticizing law enforcement for mistakes or focusing on that to more of the conspiracy side of things, of things are going wrong purposely? Is that increased?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Anya Cain]

Okay.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And, you know, we'll do a whole other podcast on this, but post May. May 20th of 2020. George Floyd. Law enforcement's forever changed. And we should be. We should be. I'm not afraid to talk about the color of my skin versus the color of others. And we have to have those conversations, those hard conversations. What we learn from that is don't run from your mistakes. We own law enforcement owns a lot of the divide with white and black and white and brown and the way we've treated people historically. What are we training for? And why do we understand cultures? What's the difference? The list go on and on and on. So I learned a lot through that period. And I'm okay with criticism. I really am. But now with all the appeals that are coming, once the guilty verdict was there and the sentencing occurred. Now all the appeals are all coming, and again, they're being reported from a singular side. We just need to prepare ourselves for that. I don't blame Richard Allen for doing what he's doing. I don't blame Rossi and Baldwin for doing what they're doing. That's kind of what they do, right? That's what they do to. To contribute to this world. So let's let it play out. Let the system decide what the future is, not a person, and we'll be okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before Anya gets back, to some of the more serious questions I have to ask, Anya had never watched Gomer Pyle until she met me. What about the show appeals to you? What about the show appeals to you?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, gosh. It's the comedy that. Just the humor and the interaction with Gomer and Sergeant Carter. He looked just like my dad, too. My dad had a flat top till the day he died. And how simple life was then, how simple it was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Also seems like there's a message there that Gomer approaches the world with decency and honor, and he ultimately changes the people around him.

[Doug Carter]

He did. He. He did. Absolutely. Who? He absolutely did. Absolutely. There's so many of those sitcoms in that period of time that accomplished that, too. And I guess I've kind of become the guy I used to complain about, but at the time, I didn't realize it, but it did have profound effect. And I've also learned we did a lot of work up in the city of Gary. We took over the Gary police department for 12 or 14 months. And you can't hate up close. You just can't. You just can't. So there. There have been some negative. Some naysayers out there that I have personally reached out to from around the country, have had some really nice conversations, disagreed with some, you know, then it turns again and, you know, the hate starts coming back out again. But I reached out to them personally because it's important to me what they were thinking and why they thought that way. Sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't in their. You know, I'm going to keep doing that because I'm a human being.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are people surprised when you.

[Doug Carter]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Very much so, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I can't imagine you. You criticize the superintendent, and the next thing you know, he's on the phone reaching out to you, wanting to hear you out.

[Doug Carter]

Well, not that I'm a superintendent. I'm just. I'm just a guy that cares deeply about. About what they care deeply about, too. And we can we can talk about it. Might have to agree to disagree, but we don't have to hate each other.

[Anya Cain]

Was that over the. That was over the Gary situation. Not Delphi, right?

[Doug Carter]

Those. Delphi.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, wow, that's wild. How has this case emotionally affected you?

[Doug Carter]

Dang you. You know, it's been the culmination of my entire career and there's just been so much sadness, so much sadness over time. But the good side of it is I got to see the best in people too. But you can't unsee what you see. You just can't. That's why I was so offended by the pictures. You can't unsee. And if it was truly an accident, then it was true. Then that's okay. But people on the Internet that have access to the Internet and click on those pictures can. Well, they will never be able to unsee. That's for me, you know, that's for me. To die broken, to see stuff like that. It's not for the common person to see those kinds of things, especially your own family. So it's, it's, it's had a very significant effect on my life.

[Anya Cain]

What about the other investigators who worked on the scene? I, I'm thinking of, you know, on, on Unified Command. My understanding it's, it's from state police. It's Jay Harper, Brian Harshman, Dave Vito, Jerry Holman. Am I missing anyone?

[Doug Carter]

No, we. There were almost. We had 240 people, 243 people that took time on this case or over this period of time. But those are the key ones.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, those were certainly the key. A lot pivoted around those individuals.

[Anya Cain]

And do you have a sense of the impact that this case has had on.

[Doug Carter]

Exact same. Exact same.

[Anya Cain]

What was it like to go from this storm and then retire immediately after.

[Doug Carter]

Dang you. I realized early on, even though I couldn't prepare for it completely, that in my role, I don't have a dimmer switch. I'm either on or I'm off. And January 13th at 4:30pm I was off. So that's got, I guess, a bit of a double edged sword. I'm sleeping better. I can actually turn my phone off at night. I don't worry about that. I still worry about the people. I still worry about them every single day. But it's very different now. And I guess I'm at a point in my life that I needed that release. So it was time. I served for two governors and it.

[Anya Cain]

Was time and, you know, we kind of touched upon this, I think. But you know, what do the investigators and the prosecutors mean to you who worked on this case having gone through all this?

[Doug Carter]

I'll never forget them. I'll never forget them. Even though my professional life is over, my public life is over, I will never, ever, ever forget the people that have impacted this case. I just won't. I just won't.

[Anya Cain]

What do the families of Libby and Abby mean to you?

[Doug Carter]

We're inextricably connected for the rest of our days. We don't talk all the time, but when we do talk, it's like we just were together yesterday. Often in many, many occasions, they showed the patience of Job. But there was also times I'm thinking to myself, dang it, stop it. So we had that kind of a relationship, you know, kind of like a brother and sister and because we could talk to each other and Mike could get mad at me and that was okay. And then we'd sit down and he'd say, I love you, brother, and give each other a hug. And off I'd go. So they're very, very special to me. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And then what do the memories of Libby and Abby themselves mean to you?

[Doug Carter]

I see him every minute. Yeah, I see him every. Every single minute.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything we haven't asked you about that?

[Doug Carter]

No. I thought you're going to be hard questions.

[Anya Cain]

Hey, when you're saying dang you, I assume that's a hard question.

[Doug Carter]

No, that's true. Touche. Touche. You got me on you. That you. You got me? Yeah. No, you know, I don't think so. I. One of my regrets is the floor fire still unsolved. And I believe, I really truly believe again, it's my own gut feeling that the person that set that fire that night did not intend to kill those four little girls. There was a consequence of their actions. I can't imagine what Galen is continuing to deal with in her life. That's a bit of unfinished business for me. And I really, I hope that one day that we can wrap that up and bring some closure in. Closure for her. I spent a lot of time across the street from that burned out house since that happened. And I would get off the beaten path when I'd go places. If I'm going to go north, I'm not going to get on the interstate. I'm going to get on a county road until it didn't go any further. Then I'll just figure out which way. And oftentimes I would find myself in Flora and I'd sit across the street and look at that house and kind of wonder. The. Wonder why. And now that house is gone. And it was. It's just kind of weird. It's just very, very strange. It's very weird. And again, I think of Galen all the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How do you deal with the emotional load of all of these people connected to these terrible events that you. That means so much to you?

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, well, when I. When I took office, I had blonde hair now. And I used to tell my wife it must be the lice, but it's not. It's all gray now. And. And I. I've. You know, part of me is dead inside, but that's just. Just kind of part of the responsibility.

[Anya Cain]

Are you okay, like, now?

[Doug Carter]

Oh, no, no, no, I'm not okay. I will be okay, but no, I'm like other people that have done that have done this kind of work for a long time. You're. You're damaged just the way it is, because what we deal with is not normal, and it's certainly not natural. But I've also learned it's okay to not be okay. And there's help out there, and I hope people will reach out and get it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What's the process like to get back to being okay?

[Doug Carter]

I think time probably. It was probably time for me to step away from it. I think time will help. Getting some professional help is helping. Redeveloping a relationship with my family. My wife, I think she'd be the first to say that. You know, I've always. I've been number two and God bless my wife, because she's always allowed that. And she's never, never really said, hey, I don't want you to do this anymore. Because she knows how important it was and how much it mattered, but it's going to take some time for that to happen. I enjoy being by myself. I enjoy quiet time now, like, I didn't think I would, but I've got a great workshop at home, and so I spend a lot of time out there. But I'll find something else to do sometime in the next couple months. Yeah, I'm not a retired kind of guy. I don't think she likes me that much anyway.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I can tell you, a number of state troopers have said, your wife, I think, makes some great food and brings it into people, and they always look forward to it.

[Doug Carter]

Yeah, yeah. She can walk shoulder to shoulder with any sailor in the world, but she'll do anything for anybody. So, yeah, she and then my daughter both. I love them dearly.

[Anya Cain]

Is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to talk about or mention?

[Doug Carter]

No, I don't think so. I don't. I mean, you guys really. You guys knocked it out of the park.

[Anya Cain]

Thank you so much and thank you for doing this. And thank you, thank you for your service within the State police in all this case.

[Doug Carter]

Been my pleasure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks very much to Doug Carter for taking the time to talk to us. We so appreciate all the care he took in doing this very important work. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com/murder sheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@Kevin TG.com if you're looking to talk.

[Anya Cain]

With other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I, I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quint products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You just made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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