The Delphi Murders: First Person: Lieutenant Jerry Holeman: Part Two

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet - "The Delphi Murders: First Person: Lieutenant Jerry Holman: Part Two"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Murder Sheet
• Hosts: Anya Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)
• Description: The Murder Sheet is a weekly true crime podcast that offers journalistic coverage of both high-profile and obscure cases. Hosted by journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee, the podcast delves into true crime stories with in-depth analysis, legal insights, and interviews with experts and authors. Notable cases discussed include the Delphi murders and the Burger Chef murders.
• Episode: The Delphi Murders: First Person: Lieutenant Jerry Holman: Part Two
• Release Date: December 21, 2024

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1. Introduction to Lieutenant Jerry Holman

Timestamps: [01:46] - [03:31]

The episode begins with a content warning from Anya Cain, indicating a discussion of the brutal murder of two girls. Kevin Greenlee introduces Lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police, one of the lead investigators in the Delphi murders case. Lt. Holman joined the investigation on February 14, 2017, working alongside a team known as Unified Command, which included detectives from the ISP, Carroll County Sheriff's Office, Carroll County Prosecutor's Office, and several volunteers. This team was instrumental in solving the murders of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams.

---

2. Defense's Odinism Theory and Investigation's Response

Timestamps: [04:15] - [07:57]

Kevin Greenlee opens the discussion by addressing the defense's Odinism theory, which suggested that the murders were ritualistic acts tied to Odinism—a modern pagan religion. Lt. Holman firmly refutes this theory, emphasizing the extensive efforts his team made to investigate and dismiss this angle.

“I think that's ridiculous. I think that we worked extremely hard on that and other tips and leads... we spent years tracking down information and ruling out that theory.” ([05:40])

Holman clarifies that Odinism is often misunderstood and is not inherently a cult or gang, but rather a legitimate religion. He highlights that many individuals associated with the supposed Odinist cult had alibis or were not present in Delphi or Carroll County during the time of the murders.

“It's not a cult, not a gang, it's an actual religion... the evidence and facts don't lie, and we could never establish probable cause on any of those people.” ([07:30])

---

3. Defense's Attack on Law Enforcement's Credibility

Timestamps: [07:57] - [10:43]

Anya Cain raises a critical issue regarding the defense attorneys' attempts to undermine the credibility of law enforcement. Lt. Holman acknowledges that while defending against such attacks is part of the job, the defense in this case went beyond typical challenges.

“The personal attacks on us were just over the top... They were making up... the defense just did a lot of pounding the table, a lot of smoke screens.” ([08:15])

Holman describes how the defense filed motions portraying the police and prosecution as corrupt and withholding evidence without any substantiated proof. He asserts that these attacks were unprofessional and more aggressive than usual, leading to increased tension and public scrutiny.

---

4. Lt. Holman's Experience During the Trial

Timestamps: [18:32] - [28:28]

The conversation delves into Lt. Holman's personal experiences throughout the trial. He recounts sitting close to Richard Allen, the accused, in the courtroom and sharing minimal interactions with him.

“I gave him water... he was eating sticky notes and just staring into space... his demeanor was off.” ([18:54])

Holman reflects on the emotional toll of the trial, describing it as "nerve-wracking" yet expressing confidence in the evidence presented. He emphasizes his commitment to truth and justice, stating:

“Testifying is, you know, the truth is easy. You don't have to, you know, you just go up there and tell the truth.” ([18:54])

---

5. The Prosecution Team's Efforts

Timestamps: [21:33] - [31:51]

Lt. Holman praises the prosecution team, particularly Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland, Stacy Der, and James Lutrell. He lauds their preparation, dedication, and legal acumen.

“Nick is probably the most organized and prepared prosecutor I've worked with... Jim Lutcher was the best prosecutor.” ([21:41], [27:45])

Holman highlights their hard work, including long hours and meticulous study of the case, which contributed significantly to securing a guilty verdict.

---

6. Verdict and Its Impact

Timestamps: [24:18] - [28:28]

Upon learning of the verdict, Lt. Holman expresses relief and satisfaction, confident that justice was served.

“We were going to get a guilty verdict... all the hard work and efforts that we put into this paid off for Abby and Libby.” ([24:34])

He appreciates the jury's thorough deliberation, understanding the complexity of the case, and is proud of the collaborative efforts that led to the conviction on all four counts.

---

7. Investigation Mistakes and Challenges

Timestamps: [28:28] - [39:08]

Lt. Holman acknowledges that no investigation is flawless, admitting that technical errors occurred during the Delphi case. These included mishandled audio and videotape recordings, which were unintentional and subsequently corrected by re-interviewing witnesses.

“The biggest mistake and the most detrimental mistake to the investigation would be quit. Give up.” ([28:41])

He emphasizes that despite these setbacks, the team's perseverance ensured the completion and success of the investigation.

---

8. Media, Social Media, and Rumors

Timestamps: [31:51] - [36:17]

Addressing the rampant rumors and misinformation spread online, Lt. Holman expresses frustration over how false narratives can impede investigations.

“Rumors are rumor... they were clogging up our Orion tip system and just making following up on leads that we know aren't true.” ([39:08])

He underscores the challenges of maintaining investigation integrity amidst unregulated social media discourse and the importance of public cooperation in trusting official channels.

---

9. Misconceptions About the Case

Timestamps: [36:17] - [38:55]

Holman highlights two primary misconceptions: the belief that the murders were ritualistic Odinist killings and that the investigation was poorly conducted. He firmly refutes both, providing evidence of the thoroughness and dedication of his team.

“There's no evidence indicating that... It was not a ritualistic killing.” ([36:17])

He reiterates the extensive efforts made by the team, including collecting over 600 male DNA profiles and continuously re-examining leads to ensure accuracy and completeness.

---

10. Relationship with Investigating Team and Victims’ Families

Timestamps: [43:43] - [47:08]

Lt. Holman speaks passionately about the bonds formed with his colleagues and the families of the victims. He describes the collaborative spirit and mutual support that sustained the team through the lengthy investigation.

“When you go through that with others, you develop those lifelong friendships... we had to rely on other people.” ([44:12])

Regarding the families of Abby and Libby, he expresses deep respect and admiration for their resilience and cooperation.

“They're both great families... they've been through the toughest situation anybody could ever go through.” ([45:14])

---

11. Memories and Meaning of Victims

Timestamps: [47:08] - [48:35]

Though Lt. Holman did not personally know the victims, he reflects on their bravery and the impact of their actions during the tragedy.

“Libby wanted to help police someday... she had the awareness to turn on her video and her phone and videotape this.” ([47:13])

He honors their memory by acknowledging their courage and the loss their families have endured.

---

12. Closing Thoughts

Timestamps: [48:47] - [53:31]

In his closing remarks, Lt. Holman underscores the importance of teamwork, dedication, and integrity in criminal investigations. He remains hopeful that justice for Abby and Libby will provide some closure for their families, even as he continues to reflect on the emotional and professional challenges faced during the case.

---

Notable Quotes:

1. Defense's Theory Rejection:

   “It's not a cult, not a gang, it's an actual religion... the evidence and facts don't lie, and we could never establish probable cause on any of those people.” ([07:30])

2. On Personal Attacks:

   “The personal attacks on us were just over the top... They were making up... the defense just did a lot of pounding the table, a lot of smoke screens.” ([08:15])

3. Confidence in Testifying:

   “Testifying is, you know, the truth is easy. You don't have to, you know, you just go up there and tell the truth.” ([18:54])

4. Prosecution Team Praise:

   “Nick is probably the most organized and prepared prosecutor I've worked with... Jim Lutcher was the best prosecutor.” ([21:41], [27:45])

5. Verdict Satisfaction:

   “We were going to get a guilty verdict... all the hard work and efforts that we put into this paid off for Abby and Libby.” ([24:34])

6. On Investigation Mistakes:

   “The biggest mistake and the most detrimental mistake to the investigation would be quit. Give up.” ([28:41])

7. Impact of Rumors:

   “Rumors are rumor... they were clogging up our Orion tip system and just making following up on leads that we know aren't true.” ([39:08])

8. Misconceptions Clarified:

   “There's no evidence indicating that... It was not a ritualistic killing.” ([36:17])

9. Team Bonds:

   “When you go through that with others, you develop those lifelong friendships... we had to rely on other people.” ([44:12])

10. Honoring the Victims:

    “Libby wanted to help police someday... she had the awareness to turn on her video and her phone and videotape this.” ([47:13])

---

Conclusion:

This episode of Murder Sheet provides an in-depth look into the Delphi murders case through the eyes of Lieutenant Jerry Holman. His candid reflections shed light on the complexities of criminal investigations, the challenges posed by defense strategies, and the profound impact such cases have on law enforcement professionals and the affected communities. The detailed account underscores the relentless pursuit of justice and the human elements intertwined with high-stakes criminal cases.

Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In this episode we will again hear from lieutenant Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police. He was one of the lead investigators in the Delphi murders case, having first started on the investigation on February 14, 2017. After that, Lieutenant Holman worked on the case for years with other ISP detectives as well as investigators from the Carroll County Sheriff's Office, the Carroll County Prosecutor's Office and several volunteers. This core team became known as Unified Command. The members of Unified Command were tasked with solving the brutal murders of 14 year old Liberty German and 13 year old Abigail Williams.

[Anya Cain]

After volunteer Kathy Schenck discovered a tip sheet on Richard Allen, Lt. Holman and the others ran down that lead, along with Carroll county prosecutor Nicholas McLeland, investigator Stephen Mullen, Sheriff Tony Liggett and many others. They put together a case against Allen that resulted in a conviction in November.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now that the gag order is lifted, Lieutenant Holman is free to speak out about the case. Some background Lt. Holman graduated from the 61st Indiana State Police Recruit Academy and has worked for the state police since 2001. He was promoted to become a detective in 2009. This past year, he was promoted to lieutenant. In this interview, he will discuss popular misconceptions, the defense's Odinism theory, his own experience at trial, and what the Delphi case means to him. This will be the second of two episodes with the lieutenant. Go back and listen to the first one if you haven't yet.

[Anya Cain]

This marks the beginning of our first person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with firsthand experience in this case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to speaking with us, please email [e-mail] this is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For years, we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Delphi Murders. First Person Lieutenant Jerry Holman, Part two. I want to jump to sort of on the. On the defense side of things, the Odinism theory that sort of came out and became a sort of a main discussion point for the defense side for quite a long time. But it's interesting, we understand from some of the court hearings that you yourself actually, you know, participated in some of those, you know, kind of looking into some of those people that came up around that early on. What do you make of the narrative that that theory was sort of unfairly suppressed or, or dismissed or not worked hard enough?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Well, I think that's ridiculous. I think that we worked extremely hard on that and other tips and leads. I guess the defense saw that as an angle to plant seeds of doubt in the media and maybe was going to try to use that the jury. But I think they ignored. They knew how hard we worked on it. We gave them in discovery multiple reports and audio and videotape statements of those people that they were wrongfully accusing. I think they just ignored how much time, effort and resources that we put into those accusations. I mean, we spent years. Well, first, we spent several months trying to figure out if it was a ritualistic killing. And, and it was just not. We were told that could be, but more than likely it wasn't. If it was, you would have no doubt if it was a. If somebody was doing a ritualistic killing or Odinist, whatever, which. I think they're confused on the Odinism religion. They're. They're. It's not a cult, not a gang, it's an actual religion. I think they were confused about that. But, you know, we. We spent years tracking down information and, and ruling out that theory. And. And it just wasn't a possibility that those people that they thought were in this cult, some of them have never even been to Delphi or Carroll County. And the ones that did were. We had alibis. I mean, we looked into them very, very thoroughly. So I think. I think for people to say, oh, you didn't. You didn't look into that, and that's absolutely false. We spent numerous, numerous hours and a number of different people looking into it. Just the Odin, this part. And then once we got the tip on the people, they thought. I mean, it just. Again, we had multiple detectives go down there and interview multiple people. And some people just, you know, aren't honest with you, and they. And they. They. They get caught up and their own lies, and they want it to be that person so bad that, you know, they'll say anything and do anything to make it. But the evidence and facts don't lie, and we could never establish probable cause on any of those people.

[Anya Cain]

You've been in law enforcement for decades, so it's not unusual for defense attorneys to try to attack the credibility of law enforcement officers. Was there anything about what these defense attorneys did that felt different than what the norm is?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

First of all, can you rephrase the decade. That really makes me sound old. Could you just say I've been in law enforcement for a few. I mean, okay, right. Decades. Geez, Kevin. Right. Yeah. Am I used to defense attorneys tacking our credibility? I mean, yes, I'm. We're used to the public and the defense attorney scrutinizing our work. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback. I mean, yes, there were mistakes made. We wish we could have done things a little bit better, a little differently, but we were able to correct a lot of those. But, you know, the personal attacks on us were just over the top. I mean, it was obvious that they wanted to attack our character publicly. I mean, after the first hearing, they went downstairs and started trying to put things in the media. And it was just obvious that they were going to try this in the media and that's why the gag order was issued. But they found the loophole, in my opinion. They, they filed several different motions, the 136 page, whatever they call it, but it all had the same message. Each motion would have the same message to whoever would listen that police are corrupt. They're all police are corrupt, and all police are liars. And including me, myself and Tony Leggett and The prosecutor, Nick McClelland's corrupt and withholding evidence. And none of that was true. And they have no evidence to indicate that. That. And I know because it's, it's, it's not true. It's just, it's lies. And the old saying, I, I like to, I love this saying that, you know, if the law is on your side, argue the law. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. And when neither on your side, pound the table. And it just felt like the law and the facts were on our side. And the defense just did a lot of pounding the table, a lot of smoke screens, a lot of, you know, things to divert the public and anyone that would listen from the facts. They never wanted to talk about the facts against Richard Allen. They want to talk about all the other bs. I would say that, that they were making up. And yeah, I mean, it happens. But I think these were a little bit more unprofessional and a little underhanded than what we were used to in our area. I guess I've never had defense attorneys go this far to challenge my character publicly.

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[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

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[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

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[Anya Cain]

How does it feel when defense attorneys, or these defense trains in particular, challenge not just your character but the character of people you work with?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Well, I think it's ridiculous because I know the people and I'm not saying that there aren't bad apples in law enforcement. All I'm saying is if they knew, if they knew Steve Mullen, Tony Leggett, myself, Nick McClelland, we are passionate about our jobs. We are very passionate about serving the communities that we live in. We were very passionate about justice and we wouldn't do anything to jeopardize that. And the people they were attacking, it was just hilarious to me because they're all great people and there's no one that would do anything for any of those people that would jeopardize their careers. I would not jeopardize my career for Tony Liggett to be elected to sheriff and neither would Steve Mullen or Nick McClelland or Kathy Shanks or anybody involved in this investigation. That's just ridiculous. It's quite appalling actually. But yeah, that's how that makes me feel. I mean, it's just like there's no way these people are really good. Law enforcement officers are really good people and they're not going to jeopardize their career for, for each other for any sort of benefit out of this. It was, that was just ridiculous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What do you make of the alleged breaches of the gag order from this defense team over the course of the pre trial and I guess trial.

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Well, you know, I think it speaks for itself. The gag order is violated by one side. In my opinion that side was a defense. I think the prosecutor and law enforcement, we didn't want information out, not because we were hiding things, but we wanted to protect the integrity of the investigation. I mean that's our job. We don't want the facts out. And I know people get angry with us and want us to be more transparent and I believe in transparency. But there's certain facts that, you know, only the killer would know and we didn't want that out. So it was obvious the defense wanted all that out to try to plant seeds of doubt and they wanted to try to make it look like we were trying to cover things up because we wanted the gag order and we didn't want to talk about it. But they were doing nothing more than just promoting a false narrative and at one point leaked crime scene photos, which you guys are aware of. I mean, and those photos are still out there, which is just disgusting. And I ask and email people all the time, don't put those out there. Say what you want about me, say what you want to say about the investigation, but nobody wants to see those brutal photos, those disgusting photos all over the Internet. And I believe it was done intentional. And I think that those people that are putting them out there, if that was their loved ones, they wouldn't want those photos all over the Internet. So have some compassion, have some truth. And, and don't put those out there that you know, I wish, I wish I could arrest every single person for putting those on the Internet, but my hands are tied there. And I mean it's just disgusting. But like I said earlier too in their motions, the defense was, you know, violating the gag order. But they found a loophole. They're putting all these false narratives out. And even during the trial was obvious to me that they were telling the media how they thought the trial was going. I had friends texting me and calling me like oh, here's going bad and this and that. No, it's because the defense was somehow relaying information and some media outlets were, seemed to be one sided and only reporting what they, what the defense wanted you to hear. Not all. And there's many outlets that were down the middle and non biased. And even podcasters and content creators and YouTubers were non biased. And there's probably some more bias towards the prosecution. I get that. But for the Main street media, they, they need to stay down the middle, you know, and I wish everybody would. Would make. Make our lives a lot, lot easier because, because of this, then you get, you guys see it all the time. But, you know, we get death threats, indirect death threats, you know, hate emails. Anybody that, that was supporting the prosecution at the time, whether they were family members, the prosecutor himself, law enforcement, podcasters, if you weren't on their side, they were going to harass you. And they still do. And it. And again, you can harass me all you want, but stop harassing the family. Stop harassing community members. You know, say what you want about law enforcement, we're big boys. I got broad shoulders and thick skin. But my message would on this would be stop harassing the family. Stop harassing the community. The people in the community don't deserve this. So that's kind of my take on the whole gag order and just the media relations itself.

[Anya Cain]

You brought up the trial. I'd love to hear about your experience at the trial. And one thing that caught me by surprise, even before the trial itself opened was the fact that you were actually sitting pretty close to Richard Allen. What was that like? Did you have any interactions with him during the trial?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

It was. Yeah, I was unusually close to him for just the way the courtroom was set up and the end of the table I was on and the end of the table he was on. I mean, had very little interaction with him. I mean, he did asked me how I was doing first day and I said, good, you. And obviously the circumstances of his living conditions weren't. Weren't the best. And he made a couple comments about that. I gave him a water. At one point, he dropped his glasses. I picked his glasses up. I mean, he's a human being. Am I angry and upset about the acts that he committed? Yes, but he's a human being. You know, I think he should pay for what he did, but, you know, he's still a human being. And, you know, I observed him at one point, he was eating sticky notes and just staring into space and just acting like I figured he would act. You know, he's. He has issues. I believe anybody that kills two girls has. Has some issues. And he's going through that and trying to deal with that and. But you had to write something down on a sticky note and eat it. Just his demeanor was Off. But yeah, I think the whole trial is nerve wracking. But I was confident in our case, I was confident that we had enough evidence to prove that Richard Allen was guilty of this. And testifying is, you know, the truth is easy. You don't have to, you know, you just go up there and tell the truth. I mean, yes, we make mistakes, but I, I don't lie under oath. I would never lie under oath. I'm not perfect. And, you know, I may be a lot of things, but I'm not corrupt and I'm not a liar. So I think the defense saw that immediately and was probably going to try to attack me a little bit more, I think. But I think that my demeanor and my ability to tell the truth maybe stopped him from doing that. I don't know. But yeah, you're obviously anxious too. I mean, especially when deliberation comes. I mean, you spend a lot of time working the investigation, but you also spend a lot of time preparing and testifying and all to get the truth. And so it does. Your anxiety kicks up a notch and, and the reason we're doing it is for justice for Abby and Libby and hopefully, hopefully for the family to get a little bit of closure. I mean, so, yeah, that was pretty much my experience through the trial. A lot of sleepless nights.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How did you feel that the prosecution team, namely Nicholas McLelan, Stacy Der, and James Lutrell did, in your view?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Yeah, I thought, I thought they did great. I thought they were definitely very well prepared. I, I think Nick is probably the most organized and prepared prosecutor I've worked with. And being a state trooper, you get to work with a lot of different prosecutors. I've worked with a lot of good ones. But Nick, really, you could tell in several different ways that he was putting a lot of time and effort into it. One way was he's a little bit grouchy, so he wasn't getting a lot of sleep. He'll hate me for saying that, but him and I have a great relationship and. But, you know, I mean, obviously he wasn't sleeping. He was staying up late, working hard. And, you know, I just think he's probably one of the hardest workers I've ever worked with, period. But as a prosecutor, he knows the law. I mean, they were, you know, I don't know, trial rules and regulations, but they obviously studied and were prepared and were winning the objections and doing the right things for the right reasons. And you could just see that, yeah, Nick, Nick really put his heart, soul into this investigation and it showed Jim, I mean, Jim, he's so calm and cool and collective and to the point and very intelligent, knows the law. My captain, Jeremy Kelly's father, I don't know his father, but he was a, he's a retired trooper and he was a crime scene investigator and. Or detective over there in the Peru area and work with Jim. And Jeremy was telling me that his dad said Jim Lutcher was the best prosecutor he's ever worked with, period. So he come with a good reputation and it was a pleasure working with, with Jim. He, like I said, just so calm. He bring, you know, brings everybody down and, and is able to kind of keep everything together. And Stacy, you know, I worked with Stacy and Nick before. Stacy was a prosecutor up in Plascot County. I worked with her early on when we filed some meth lab charges on people manufacturing meth up there. Also worked with her as the. When she was a deputy prosecuting attorney in White County. So I knew that she was very organized and thorough and, and she, she was able, she has the demeanor to work well with everybody. I think she was even able to work as well as possible with the defense attorneys. Better than. Better than maybe some others. And she just has that ability to work well with everybody. And you know, all three of them are just awesome. Great job by all three of them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I'm curious, you know, you, you went through all these years of the investigation and then, you know, trial lasted a little under a month, I guess. What was it like to I guess first of all hear that a verdict had come down and then to hear what the verdict was?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Yeah, I think we're all excited. Again I say this now, but I really had no doubt that we were going to get a guilty verdict. There was some people concerned that there might be a hung jury. But as I was kind of watching the jury, I just felt like they were very in tuned and taking good notes and asking questions and I just felt like the facts were there that they were going to find him guilty. So it wasn't a surprise to me. I wasn't worried. I was very anxious. Obviously when most trials that I've been involved with, hour and a half, maybe three or four hours, jury will deliberate and come back. So this is the first one that was multiple days, but I appreciated that because there was so much information that the prosecution and the defense put out there. So I wanted them to make the right decision. I didn't want them to make a hasty decision. I didn't want them to rush anything. So I appreciated that they Took time out of their families lives and their lives and, and dedicated themselves to this, this duty that's very important. So I, I was, I wasn't as worried about it as some people. Again, I was anxious and you know, maybe a little bit on edge and took a lot of walks around the courthouse square there and. But I was confident that, that we were going to get a guilty verdict. And when Nick text me and said, hey, we got a verdict, I was excited because I knew it was going to be guilty. And I was like, okay, it's not going to be a hung jury. Great, we don't have to do this again. And so I was, I was pretty excited about it. Went up, talked to Nick and he was still kind of nervous and I was like, we got. This is, this is, you know, they took such a long time because they wanted to be thorough and make the right decision and they're going to. So when, when they came in, you know, everybody's always like, well, if they don't look at the suspect that's going to be guilty and if they, they look at the family or the suspect, you know, I don't know if any of that's true or not, but I bought into it. And I was watching the jury and seeing how they were acting and it seemed to me like they were focused on the judge and maybe in their body language, they were turned focused on the judge. And when that first one come out guilty, I mean, it was just like a ton of bricks off your chest. And that all the hard work and efforts that we put into this paid off for, for Abby and Libby because that, that's, that's what it was about. It wasn't about any of us. It wasn't, it was about them getting justice for those two. Can't get their lives back, unfortunately. But, you know, and for their families, some, hopefully they get a little bit of closure from this. But, you know, I don't know if I was in her shoes. I don't know. So this helps or, or not. But, but we got the right guy. And you know, then, then to get the verdict on both counts or all four counts just shows that the work that, that the investigators did paid off. The works that the prosecution did and all the expert witnesses, it just all came together and just felt, you know, it took a while to sink in. I think it maybe even took a couple days to sink in. But I'm just glad they got it right. I'm glad that we work together as a team, as investigators and the lab. And you Know, all the experts, just all the time and effort, I can't imagine. You know, I've testified for hours before, but some of those expert witnesses were there all day long and that's just amazing. So I was proud, very proud of the team and everybody involved.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can you tell us about, you know, looking back, every investigation has mistakes. Anything involving humans obviously does. But what do you regard as the biggest mistake that occurred in this case?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Yeah, I mean, like you said, there's no such thing as a perfect investigation. Although we try. Things just go wrong. Things go wrong in life. And, um, some of it we. You can't control. You know, like I said a minute ago, I'm very proud of the work of everybody involved. I'm extremely hard and. And they poured their hearts and soul into this investigation for seven years and 10 months. So mistakes, technical errors, you know, whatever you want to call them, maybe a little bit of both. What I can say here and every day before, after and during this is none of the mistakes were made intentional. Nobody wanted to misfile a tip. No one wanted the tip to be overlooked. I think that's probably one of the major things that we're going to get criticized over. But it was just, it was just a mistake and we were able to overcome it. Took us too long. Absolutely. I wish we would have had that day one. But we didn't quit. I think the biggest mistake and the most detrimental mistake to the investigation would be quit. Give up. And there was never any talk or indication that anybody was going to give up on this investigation. The technical errors. I mean, no one deleted any audio videotapes. Nobody. The deli incident, you know, people were unfamiliar with the recording system. There's a little key outside the door. You swipe the key, a green light comes on and you're recording. When you're done, you're supposed to flip it back, a red light comes on, it stops recording. Well, if you're not familiar with that and maybe somebody turned that on for you and you get done, you leave. And what happened was it just continuously recorded over the interviews? There was no way to get them back. We tried, we tried to correct those mistakes. We went back to try to identify people that were interviewed during that time frame. If we couldn't find a report where the. They memorialized the interviews, then we would go back and re interview the person and memorialize that either with an audio videotape statement or a report. You know, same thing with some of the technical difficult. I mean, you saw it in the trial. It wasn't on purpose. It was just sometimes, I mean, we would break play the video, the jury come back in. It wouldn't work. You can't explain that. It's just technology is great when it works. But there was nothing in this investigation that was done for any foul reasons. Nothing intentional. Like I said earlier, I've worked with these people, and the last person that's going to do something intentional like that is Steve Mullen. The most honest guy in the world, if anybody knew him like I do, and I've known him for years, worked with him on the road. Most honest guy you'd ever work with. But yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, we were able to overcome all those obstacles and barriers and mistakes and, and take the evidence and facts that don't lie and prove to a jury of Mr. Allen's peers that he was responsible for the murders of Abby and Libby. End of the story.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So one thing that's characterized the Delphi murders case is sort of what at times is to be blunt, a rather like insane online following. Not to say that everyone who's interested in the case online is behaving poorly, but there's certainly a small and vocal minority that is. And you know, given that and given all of the issues that have arisen from that, I'm curious for you, looking back, is there anything that you feel the authorities, speaking as a whole, could have done differently to help mitigate some of that or ensure that it wouldn't get as crazy online or. What are your thoughts on that?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

I don't know. I think, I think the media and social media can be very helpful. Kind of like you can't stereotype type media and social media, like you can't stereotype police officers or anybody. I mean, there's, there's a lot of good out there. However, there are some that don't self regulate. I guess what they, what they say and can be hurtful to each other and to everybody involved. I think, you know, obviously I said this earlier, we want to be transparent. I believe in transparency. And I think that in this case, if we had information that we thought would be helpful to release to the public, we did, but the public's never going to know everything about the investigation. That just can't happen. I mean, I, I also believe that we have to maintain the integrity of the investigation for several reasons. We don't want crime scene photos leaked. We don't want information out there that only the killer would know. I mean, that helps us solve crimes. You know, cameras in the courtroom. I Don't know. That's, that's not my call. I think it might have helped the reporting, but, you know, I guess if you don't have complete control over something, you really can't put your opinion out there. I mean, I, I, I don't have control of cameras in the courtroom. I don't have control on regulating what social media says. To a certain extent, maybe, but I mean, you know, it's just, it's like being stuck between a rock and a hard place. You, you want to put information out that's going to help you, but you also have to stand firm on. We can't release certain investigative techniques that we're doing. We can't, we can't release names of people. It's just, it's just hard to maintain a good relationship with the media and social media, especially when you don't have complete control over those entities.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And can you explain why it can be important investigatively not to release specific pieces of information like, say, how the girls were killed that was not released for a very long time. What would be the thinking behind that?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

You fear false confessions. You feel, you fear that people are gonna say, yeah, I killed them, but, and that happened occasionally, but we were able to eliminate those early on because of the facts that they were saying and how they killed them we knew wasn't true. So I think cause of death and motive or a couple of things that you, you, you just, I don't feel comfortable releasing to the media. Like I said, we had a unified command and we worked together, and we were all satisfied with what we did release to the media when we released it because we thought it would help the case. None of the decisions we made were to make anybody's lives miserable and withhold information just because we could. And that, that's just not true. It's just, as an investigator, you have to do what's best for the case, and that's what we did.

[Anya Cain]

I'm curious, now that it's all over you, you say you do get texts from people and stuff sometimes. What are the biggest misconceptions that you think the public has about this case?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

I think we touched on it a little bit, but I think the most, most of the public thought we were on the right track. I think most of the public thought we were doing our jobs, and most of the people in our communities were supportive of us and trusted us. But because of some of the more local people on social media that we kind of talked about and some of the media outlets that were persuaded by the false narratives. Some thought this was a ritualistic killing. It just wasn't. It was not. There's no evidence indicating that, you know, blood spatter on a tree and sticks on people don't automatically make an. The average person think, oh, my gosh, this is a ritualistic killing by Odinists, which again, misconception of what Odinism is. Norse paganism is a religion. I knew nothing about this religion. And apparently it's popular with the military and police. I didn't know that. What I know now is they're not a cult. They don't believe in human sacrifice. That's the misconception, is they make it out to be something that's not. It wasn't Odinism. It was the religion that Brad Holder was practicing. And Patrick Westfall was not Odinism. It was Norse paganism. And I think that was one of the biggest misconceptions throughout this case. The other was that it was a botched investigation. It wasn't conducted thoroughly. That's just not true. I mean, I could show you hours and hours and lists of suspects or tips and leads. I mean, thousands of people. We collected over 600 male DNA profiles. I mean, we worked extremely hard on this case, and not just once, but we would come back and relook at things and we, we reached out. We, you know, our egos didn't get in the way, in my opinion. We reached out to other departments, we reached out to people for help and, and they all said, hey, you're. You're doing the right thing. Keep working. You know, So I just, I just think that those were probably the two biggest misconceptions, is it was that it was. There's no doubt it was not a ritualistic killing, but that was, that was probably the biggest. And then I'm telling you, we worked extremely hard on this. We worked our tails off for seven years and 10 months. And, and maybe, maybe there's better investigators out there, I don't know. But I don't think anybody would have worked near as hard as this group that we had working on it. That's my opinion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One thing about this case is that it was sort of plagued by rumors from very early on. Things would happen on social media, and then suddenly everyone's talking about how an arrest is imminent when it wasn't. Can you talk about that?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Yeah, I mean, rumors are rumors. You're going to have them in everyday life. And early on, I tried really hard to debunk the rumors. I don't know where they were coming from. Seemed to me like people close to the investigation might have been talking to some other people. And most of the rumors were third and fourth hand, so they've been stepped on and twisted and kind of like the telephone game. So there's a little bit of truth, but not really. But the reason we were that I was debunking the room is rumors early on was because we were getting tips about those rumors. I'm not going to go into all the rumors that that were being spread, but we knew that they were false. So it was just clogging up our Orion tip system and just making a, you know, following up on leads that we know aren't true because of the rumors that were being spread out there. So not a huge issue when we were able to, you know, deal with that issue. But there were, there were a lot of rumors being spread out there about this case. And it's unfortunate that that happens, but it happens.

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[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

It like to immerse yourself in a horrifying situation on a daily basis?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Yeah, I think about that a lot because I wouldn't wish this type of investigation on anyone. You know, going into it, I knew it was going to take a toll on us. I mean, honestly, I thought the first day we'd have somebody in custody by the end of the week. But after that, I knew that we were in for the long haul and it was going to take a toll on everybody. But however, you know, being in the marine Corps for eight years and a trooper now for 24 years, I said it earlier, I become compartmentalized or desensitized or calloused to traumatic events. So that part didn't affect me emotionally. You know, it was more the exhausting hours that we work, 10 to 12 hour shifts, working on weekends, getting called. I mean, just dedicated to this case. Everybody. Everybody, including myself. You know, it was tough. A lot of sleepless nights. You lay awake thinking about, did we do this right? Can we do it better? But, you know, that's what we do. We. We work our tails off. We follow the facts and the evidence, and until we can, you know, establish probable cause for the rest, and. And then after that, the real work starts, and that's preparing for trial. So that's another ex. Exhausting effort that we go through. But everybody involved knew that whatever toll it took on us, we were willing to make that sacrifice for Abby Libby and their families. And no one has suffered more than them, so that makes it a little bit easier.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've mentioned a number of people in this conversation who worked on the investigation or the prosecution, and many, I'm sure, we've not mentioned who, you know, not really been as public facing or just didn't come up in this talk. But I'm just curious, when you're looking at all these investigators and prosecutors and volunteers, what do they mean to you now that you've all been through this rather horrifying and unique situation together?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

I often use the phrase trauma bonding wrong, but when you go through tough times with people that make, you know, make you tough, it's like being in the military. When you go through a challenging and stressful situation, you just become closer. When you go through that with others, you develop those lifelong friendships, you know, build on mutual trust and support and reliance on one another during those times of stress and adversity. I mean, we had a lot of stress and adversity through this case. We had to Rely on other people. And I think that those shared experience of hardship, they forged those strong bonds. You know, in this case, I'll always have special place in my heart for those guys. The prosecutors, the investigators, everybody involved mean a lot to me, and they mean a lot to the community. And that's what we do. We. We try to do things right for the right reason at the right time, and that does cause you to. To have a certain bond with. With people.

[Anya Cain]

What do the families of Abby and Libby mean to you?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

You know, as an investigator, you try to keep the emotions out of it. You know, you try to do your job. But personally, I think very highly of both families in this case. You know, talk about tough people. I mean, they've been through the toughest situation anybody could ever go through, losing their daughters, granddaughter, sister, cousin, whatever they meant to certain people in that family. And, and they just dealt with it the best they could, you know, and I. I've told him multiple times, you know, I can't put myself in your shoes. I can't imagine what you're going through. However, if I was in their shoes, I, I would think that my reactions would be very similar, especially Mike, Patty. I mean, he was wanting to be involved. He wanted to be his special deputy, and, you know, we couldn't let that happen.

[Anya Cain]

And.

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

But that, that's exactly how I would be if. If that was my granddaughter. And, you know, it would have been very easy for them to distrust us, become aggravated with the investigation. And they probably were at times. We were aggravated at times. But the way they stood with us throughout the ups and downs for the last seven years and ten months was phenomenal. I mean, when I hugged Anna at the end, I just thanked her for trusting us and believing in us, because she'd always say, I believe you guys are going to do this. I believe in you guys. And, and that means a lot. So, you know, like I said, they're both great families. They did not deserve this. No one does, I don't think. And unfortunately, we were brought together with those families by a brutal. By. By the brutal acts of Mr. Allen. I mean, and I always. I've learned a ton from them. And, and I'm definitely tough people, very tough. And again, they'll hold a special place in my heart as well.

[Anya Cain]

What do Libby and Abby and their memories mean to you?

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Well, as you know, I didn't know them before, but I. What I know now, I truly believe they were going to accomplish great things in life. And I'm upset that they got that taken away from them. But they'll always be true heroes to me in this case. Like prosecutor McLeland said in his closing arguments, you know, Libby wanted to help police someday. Well, she did. She by having the awareness to turn on her video and her phone and videotape this. I mean, she was only 14 years old. I mean most 14 year olds would not react like that. It was just amazing to me. And then Abby, for hiding the phone, whether she did it intentionally or not, Mr. Allen couldn't find it and destroy any of that evidence, which helped out tremendously. And then both of them staying together, I mean, I think, I don't know if I was in that situation, I may have took off running. But they stayed together because of their true friendship and dedication to each other. And to me, they're just two of the absolute most brave heroes in my opinion and definitely learned a lot from them. I'll always hold a special place in my heart for them and I hope someday I'm able to give them a hug when I finally meet him in heaven.

[Anya Cain]

Is there anything we haven't asked you about that you'd like to talk about? I'd like people to know about this case or your work on it.

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

I don't think so. I think we covered a majority of it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, thank you so much, Lieutenant Holman, for taking the time to talk with us today. We really appreciate it.

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

Thank you. I appreciate what you guys are doing for us too. Thank you.

[Anya Cain]

We'd like to thank the lieutenant for taking the time to speak with us today. We appreciate it and we appreciate his efforts on this case. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Anya Cain]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this murder sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason B.L. blair's wonderful silver Linings handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy, well, being like he does it all, this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space. Just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[Anya Cain]

On a personal level, Jason is, frankly a great guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

He's been a really good friend to us. And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show. He's been on our show a couple times. We've been on his show. Show. He's a terrific guest. I. I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this. That really resonated. Like, I do quote him in, in. In conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different, complicated.

[Lieutenant Jerry Holman]

She quotes them to me all the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think. And you like us, you, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough. And we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can. Can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[Anya Cain]

It's compassionate, it's affirming, but I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And he's got a great community that he's building, so we're really excited to be a part of that. We're fans of the show. We love it and we would strongly encourage you all just check it out, download some episodes, listen. I think you'll, you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to.

[Anya Cain]

Podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts. Very easy to find.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely.