The Delphi Murders: First Person: Major Pat Cicero: Part One

Summary

Episode Summary: "The Delphi Murders: First Person: Major Pat Cicero: Part One"

Podcast Title: Murder Sheet
Hosts: Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee
Release Date: January 7, 2025

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Introduction to the Episode

In this compelling episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve deep into the chilling Delphi murders case by interviewing Major Pat Cicero, a seasoned forensic expert. This episode marks the first part of a two-episode series featuring Major Cicero, providing listeners with an insider's perspective on one of the most haunting true crime cases in recent memory.

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Major Pat Cicero’s Background and Career

Major Pat Cicero brings over two decades of extensive experience in law enforcement and forensic analysis to the table. Originally hailing from the Chicago area, Cicero's journey in law enforcement began after his honorable discharge from the U.S. Army in 1994. He pursued an associate's degree in law enforcement from Vincennes University before advancing his education at Indiana University in Bloomington, where he also met his wife, Jennifer, a fellow police officer.

Notable Quote:

"Port County has been wonderful. That's my, that's basically my background leading into my tenure with the Port County Sheriff's Office."
— Major Pat Cicero [06:21]

Cicero's dedication led him to the LaPorte County Sheriff's Office in 2000, where he swiftly transitioned from patrol duties to becoming a detective. His mentorship under Sergeant Larry Biggs and contributions to crime scene investigations have been pivotal in his career development. Cicero's commitment extends beyond his immediate duties, as he also serves as an adjunct instructor at the University of Tennessee's National Forensic Academy, sharing his expertise with the next generation of crime scene investigators.

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Bloodstain Pattern Analysis and Crime Scene Reconstruction

A significant portion of Major Cicero's work revolves around bloodstain pattern analysis (BPA) and crime scene reconstruction. His methodical approach has been instrumental in shedding light on the tragic events of the Delphi murders, where two young girls, Liberty German (14) and Abigail Williams (13), were brutally killed by Richard Allen on February 13, 2017.

Notable Quote:

"Bloodstained pattern analysis is, if not, is probably the most utilized discipline in the crime scene reconstruction realm."
— Major Pat Cicero [20:28]

BPA involves examining the bloodstains at a crime scene to determine the sequence of events, the type of weapon used, and the movements of both victim and perpetrator. Despite some controversies surrounding BPA since the 2009 National Academy of Sciences report, Cicero emphasizes the importance of objective, factual analysis. He notes that in the Delphi case, despite the defense presenting conflicting theories, Major Cicero's evidence stood strong due to its meticulous methodology.

Notable Quote:

"We do in a very objective, factual way... applying the how blood reacts or the physics of things when it could have happened in the sequence, it does provide you with the more objective, best explanation how things had occurred."
— Major Pat Cicero [20:28]

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Forensic Entomology and the Body Farm

Beyond BPA, Major Cicero is deeply involved in forensic entomology, the study of insects in relation to criminal investigations. His work at the University of Tennessee's Body Farm—a research facility dedicated to understanding decomposition—has been crucial in advancing this field.

Notable Quote:

"Forensic entomology is to lecture. We have one day of lecture and then there's two days of field work just in forensic entomology."
— Major Pat Cicero [25:28]

The Body Farm allows researchers to study human decomposition under various environmental conditions, aiding in more accurate estimations of time since death. Cicero highlights the collaborative nature of this work, assisting federal and local law enforcement agencies with case-specific research to better understand decomposition processes.

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Challenges and Misconceptions in Forensic Analysis

Major Cicero addresses several challenges faced in forensic analysis, particularly the misconceptions perpetuated by popular media. The "CSI effect," where jurors expect forensic evidence to be as definitive and instantaneous as portrayed on television, often complicates real-life investigations.

Notable Quote:

"There's that concern about the CSI effect... when you talk about crime scene reconstruction, if you think of a pie, blood stains are a good portion of that pie."
— Major Pat Cicero [22:00]

He emphasizes that real-life forensic work is painstaking and methodical, far removed from the dramatized versions seen on TV. Accurate BPA requires comprehensive data collection, rigorous testing, and an unwavering commitment to uncovering the truth, regardless of whether it supports the prosecution or the defense.

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Insights from the Delphi Murders Case

In discussing the Delphi case, Major Cicero underscores the critical role of BPA in establishing the sequence of events and validating the evidence against Richard Allen. His expertise helped counteract the defense's attempts to cast doubt on the evidence by demonstrating the reliability and accuracy of the bloodstain patterns found at the crime scene.

Notable Quote:

"It was all about putting it together as far as bloodstain pattern analysis and crime scene reconstruction."
— Major Pat Cicero [37:07]

Cicero also touches on specific instances where his analysis led to significant breakthroughs, such as determining the absence of back spatter on the perpetrator in certain cases, thereby reinforcing the prosecution's claims.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Major Pat Cicero's contributions to the Delphi murders case and the broader field of forensic science are invaluable. His dedication to meticulous analysis and education ensures that forensic methodologies continue to evolve and improve, providing clearer insights into complex criminal cases.

Notable Quote:

"The ultimate goal is to tell the truth, no matter if it helps prosecution or helps the defense or vice versa."
— Major Pat Cicero [44:03]

This episode offers a profound look into the intricate world of forensic analysis, highlighting the importance of expertise, objectivity, and relentless pursuit of truth in solving some of the most perplexing crimes.

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Key Takeaways:

• Expertise and Training: Major Cicero’s extensive background and continuous training underscore the importance of specialized knowledge in forensic investigations.
• Objective Analysis: Emphasizing a factual and unbiased approach ensures the integrity of forensic evidence.
• Education and Mentorship: Cicero’s role as an instructor helps foster the next generation of forensic experts.
• Misconceptions: Real-life forensic work is methodical and less glamorous than portrayed in media, requiring patience and precision.

This episode serves as an enlightening resource for true crime enthusiasts, offering a behind-the-scenes glimpse into the forensic processes that bring justice to light.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Pat Cicero was one of the most compelling witnesses in the Delphi murders case. A Major with Laporte County Sheriff's Office, he testified at both the three day hearings over the summer and at the trial itself this past fall. In today's episodes we will be hearing from him once again.

[Anya Cain]

Major Cicero's contribution to the Delphi case centered around bloodstained pattern analysis and crime scene reconstruction. In court, he spoke about the evidence at the brutal crime scene and what it indicated happened to 14 year old Liberty German and 13 year old Abigail Williams at the hands of Richard Allen on February 13, 2017. Delivered in a calm, professional and respectful manner, Major Cicero's testimony brought many in the courtroom to tears.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The Major has extensive crime scene investigation experience. The State of Indiana certified him as a crime scene Investigator back in 2004. He is a forensic expert with bloodstain pattern analysis. Now he even trains new crime scene investigators in crime scene management and investigative approaches. He is an adjunct instructor at the University of Tennessee's National Forensic Academy. In the Delphi case, he received the work done by Indiana State Police crime scene investigators, all the photographs and reports documenting the scene, and then even conducted some experiments to look at the bloodstain patterns present there.

[Anya Cain]

Now we would be remiss not to give some context. Bloodstein pattern analysis has come under scrutiny since the 2009 report from the National Academy of Sciences sent shockwaves throughout the forensics world. In some cases, critics have pointed out that bloodstained pattern analysts have come to entirely different conclusions in cases adding to the controversy. That being said, in the Delphi case there was no such battle of the experts. In that regard, the defense did not do much by way of countering Major Cicero. They certainly put out a lot of conjecture about the crime scene in a way that contradicted his findings. But they called no forensics experts to back up their often astounding assertions.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For his part, Major Cicero noted that the 2009 report and the controversies around forensics have pushed professionals in the field to improve. He stressed to us the importance of being open minded and methodical in one's approach to crime scene reconstruction.

[Anya Cain]

Another important note, unlike many, many trial experts, Major Cicero takes no payment for his work at trials. This is just a part of his public service. Today we will hear about Major Cicero's career, his work at the University of Tennessee's so called Body Farm and some memorable cases he has worked on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now that the gag order is lifted, Major Cicero and others are free to speak about their experiences with the deli case. This will be the first of two episodes featuring our interview with the Major. They will be released on the same day, so check out the second part as well. These episodes are part of our first person interview series. We will seek to interview as many of the individuals with firsthand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to talking with us, please send us an [e-mail] this is part of our ongoing efforts to report on the Delphi murders. For many years we have not gotten chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Anya Cain]

I'm an attorney and this is the murder sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the murder sheet and this is The Delphi murders. First Person Major Pat Cicero Part 1 To start out with, could you tell us a bit about your background, maybe even your life a little bit before you joined law enforcement?

[Major Pat Cicero]

Sure. I'm originally from the Chicago Chicagoland area. I was born and raised there all throughout my adolescence and into high school. I believe it was 86 or 87 that my parents decided from Cook County, Illinois to Lake County, Indiana and I finished my high schooling in Crown Point. Soon after finishing high school I enlisted in the United States Army. I was there for three years, was honorably discharged in 1994 I believe. Immediately after I came home I went straight to Vincennes University where I obtained my associate's degree in law enforcement and I highly commend Vincennes University. It was a great, great experience at Vincennes and I think they now are four year college. Back then it was just a two year college. Soon after I finished in Sen University I enrolled at Indiana University in Bloomington. Primary reason I went there was they have the law enforcement program at Indiana University in Bloomington where a person who's employed with the agency at the Indiana University Police Department can attend the law enforcement Academy for Indiana. So not only are you obtaining your degree four year degree, you can also get your academy done which is beneficial for any potential employers. While I was at Nanny University I met my wife. Her name is Jennifer. She's wonderful. And we were married in 1998 and we both graduated from IU and we moved north to South Bend where Jennifer, who was also a police officer at Indiana University, she became a dispatcher for the South Bend Police Department and I was eventually hired by the Amtrak Police department in Chicago. So I was a railroad officer in the Chicago district for a couple years. The problem with working in Chicago is I was living in South Bend and commuting every day. So that was difficult during that approximately two year time that I was at Amtrak in Chicago. My wife and I had moved to La Porte, Indiana so I could be a little bit closer to work. And my wife would commute from laporte to South Bend and I was from laporte to Chicago. That was interesting working in Chicago as an officer, even in the railroad part of it. And I had enough of working in Chicago as an officer because it's not what I envisioned. Sometimes very difficult.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What made it difficult?

[Major Pat Cicero]

The individuals you had to police were difficult and it was, it was one of those types of jobs where, you know, it's a non traditional law enforcement, just like Indiana University was non traditional college. But the, the way you had to police was a little bit tougher. The professionalism, complexities of university policing, it doesn't apply with the railroad police in Chicago. And I said, you know, I want to do traditional policing. And I was eventually hired with the Laporte County Sheriff's Office and that was in year 2000 and I had been there ever since. But along the way, and most importantly, my wife and I developed a life in La Porte County, Indiana. And we have three wonderful, wonderful children. The three of them are just fantastic. One's 22 working for the railroad and one's in college at Indian University, Indianapolis. And one is going, she's still a junior. She'll be senior next year in the local high school here. So Port county has been wonderful. That's my, that's basically my background leading into my tenure with the Port County Sheriff's Office.

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[Major Pat Cicero]

Sure. When I was hired here at the LaPorte County Sheriff's Office in 2000, you know, I began as a patrol officer like it's normal. But after I think it was about a year and 10 months, I was promoted to a detective because I had an investigative background with the Amtrak railroad. I was actually in their detective bureau. And the sheriff at the time, Jim Arnold, allowed me to become a detective after a short period of time with this with the patrol division. And I'm one to give reference, respect to the people before me. And I want to mention when I got into the detective bureau I, I was teamed up with some gentlemen that I still work with today. But my mentor with crime scene investigation was Sergeant Larry Biggs who's no longer with us. And he was mentored by Wayne Kempker again who's no longer with us. And laporte county has a, has a, has a pretty good history of crime scene investigators who did a really, really good job. And Larry Biggs was one of them. And I can say that Larry Biggs was probably one of the reasons why I was really passionate about crime scene investigations early on as a detective. But everything starts out with a mentorship on the job, training, but then training. I had been very fortunate under all my sheriffs, Sheriff Arnold Molin, our Sheriff Boyd and now current sheriff he to be allowed to go to various trainings throughout my career. And it started out with just a basic crime scene investigators course within the state of Illinois and another crime scene investigators course in Indiana. We have a CSI course for the investigators in the state of Indiana, a statewide course which is four weeks long and I attended there. In those courses you, you were introduced to the multitude of disciplines in crime scene investigation because they are multiple week long courses. And that's where I also met my mentor, retired Sergeant Dean Marks in. He's my mentor in bloodstained pattern analysis and he has mentored many people in. Throughout the state of Indiana. Dean Marks, he'd probably be embarrassed me singing his praises. Dean Marks has guided me, mentored me and he's with the state and I'm with county. But again throughout my, I have over 20 years in detective bureau. I've been allowed to go to so many trainings traveled at taxpayers expense, which I appreciate the taxpayers as well, to attend training in bloodstained pattern analysis and crime scene reconstruction and other other facets of crime scene investigations. My most noteworthy attendance in some type of training was at the National Forensic Academy. I attended the Academy in 2006. And that's a 10 week long intensive live in academy down in the University of Tennessee. So when I was in Knoxville at the time, during that 10 weeks is kind of difficult on the family, but we got it done and that led to a very wonderful future for me attending the academy because I also have to recognize another mentor if I will, if that's okay. Dr. Neal Haskell, who is a forensic entomologist. He was also the charge of the St. Joseph's College forensic program prior to St. Joseph's closing down in Rensselaer, Indiana. And forensic entomology has been my passion times since death. Forensic taphonomy, it's been something that I've been studying, researching, collaborating with other scientists. And I've been blessed to continue to work at the University of Tennessee and continue with forensic entomology for the crime scene investigator. And I want to make sure there's a clear distinction here. I am not a forensic entomologist. I do not have a PhD in forensic entomology. My role is as roles for the crime scene investigator is the collection procedures and the investigative approach to forensic entomological evidence. And so that has been so wonderful for my career as far as my ability to return to Tennessee. And I've been doing this for 18 years now. So I've been going, I'm going to be going on my 19th year at the University of Tennessee teaching crime scene investigators throughout the entire country who come to Tennessee to receive the 10 weeks of training. And I teach during the anthropology week where forensic entomology is variety to the students. But even during that time with forensic entomology, I continued with my training and working cases as a investigator for the Port County Sheriff's Office primarily in blessed empire analysis and crime scene reconstruction. And after two decades, prior to even two decades just working for other agencies, receiving their information, their cases, asking for assistance. It's been throughout the state of Indiana, Illinois, one case in Illinois and a case in New Mexico that I worked as well. To this day I still receive calls, you know, from students at the University of Tennessee, you know, about entomology, helping them either do the collection or directing them to the forensic entomologist to send their samples to. So it's, it's been very rewarding. Praise my wife for her love and support patients. Me, she sometimes may not realize how much I appreciate her, but I do. It's been a very fulfilling career but at the same time at what cost? Because of all the things that I've help other agencies with. Of course on my agency as well.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's an amazing resume. I. I want to. You've had an astounding career. You've done a lot of good, and so I certainly appreciate that. I wanted to ask a very broad layperson's question. You talk about blood stain pattern analysis. What can analyzing bloodstains tell us about a crime scene?

[Major Pat Cicero]

Well, a thorough investigation of blood evidence could provide one with information as to what actually occurred, what type of weapon was used, the movement of the victim and or suspect, the proximity of a suspect to the victim, sequencing what happened at the scene. Sometimes we can determine the minimum number of bludgeonings, if you will. You may be able to tell the weapon. We may be able to determine if the blood was in the airway. There's just a tremendous amount of information that we can. We can provide with a good analysis of the bloodstain or all the bloodstain patterns. And that's important to note is it's bloodstain pattern interpretation. So we don't just analyze single stains or just a few stains to provide a picture as to what occurred. Bloodstained pattern analysis is, if not, is probably the most utilized discipline in the crime scene reconstruction realm, if you will. You know, when we talk about crime scene reconstruction, if you think of a pie, blood stains are a good portion of that pie. But we also have shooting reconstruction. We have, again, the realm of reconstruction. We're talking about sequencing, chronology, superposition, lateral continuity, all these terms that we have to focus upon when determining as to what happened, when it happened, the chronology or the sequence when things happened, and all in the context of a crime scene. So knowing how blood reacts to energy or force provides us with a basis in conjunction with context to the crime scene as to what occurred. Because in the realm of possibilities, especially in a court of law, it seems to be infinite when you have opposing sides saying, well, couldn't this happen, Couldn't this happen? And crime scene reconstruction. We must at least address the possibility of things, whether they're apparently unreasonable or reasonable. But we do in a very objective, factual way. And as opposed to worrying about in inferences will always happen. Conjecture could have, will happen. But when you compare that to the objectivity and factual basis and applying the how blood reacts or the physics of things when it could have happened in the sequence, it does provide you with the more objective, best explanation how things had occurred.

[Anya Cain]

I'm curious. You mentioned the CAM case and things like that. Are there limits to what we can learn from a crime scene? Or, I guess, common possible pitfalls when it comes to bloodstain pattern analysis that experts really have to try to avoid or anything like that.

[Major Pat Cicero]

Yes, there's limits. Again, at some point, there are always going to be. Well, I'm not gonna say always, but it's very common that there are mechanisms that create blood patterns that can mimic other blood patterns. Okay. A good example would be referred to blood stains that are less than a millimeter pairing. You know, what could have created that? Well, in many instances or the majority of the time, it is something with high energy will create those very small spatters or individual stains. But again, we have to look at the pattern and the context of the scene to determine if a gunshot was involved, for example. However, if I took a toothbrush and had blood on it and used my thumb to go through the toothbrush, it would also create stains that are very, very small. So we have to be careful in saying what it. It is, what it exactly is, without addressing context. There have been several studies done, you know, where they talk about error and, you know, people getting things wrong and yes, absolutely, there are times when people do get things wrong, but if they're not using the proper methodology, applying the discipline, there is no error in the methodology. Okay. There's errors in people taking measurements to trying to determine the angle of impacts. There's error in sequencing. If you're just looking at photographs, there could be error in just identifying what a pattern is, again without having any context. So as an analyst, you have to address those.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You mentioned Tennessee. Is that where the famous body farm is?

[Major Pat Cicero]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are you involved with that?

[Major Pat Cicero]

Yes. Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can you talk about what you do there?

[Major Pat Cicero]

Sure. Again, primarily it's with forensic entomology. So there are actually two facilities now in Tennessee. The original facility, which was developed by Dr. Bill Bass, I believe that was the late 70s, early 80s when he developed that is in Knoxville. Believe it's now. It used to be just an acre. Now it's, I believe it's 2 to 3 acres. And again, it's been there since the 80s. And that's where I originally started working at the research facility at the University of Tennessee. They have the Law Enforcement Innovation center where the forensic National Forensic Academies is associated with. They purchased and rehabbed a building to make that the new National Forensic Academy. And that's in Oak Ridge, Tennessee. And the university also basically made another facility for just the Law Enforcement Innovation Center. It's on the side of a mountain away from Oak Ridge. It's very remote up a mountain. And so now I instruct there with the students. So my. My role Again is forensic entomology is to lecture. We have one day of lecture and then there's two days of field work just in forensic entomology. But the week of anthropology consists of instruction from forensic anthropologists who are all PhDs in anthropology related matters such as burial detection, the actual exhumation of a body, or the removal of a body from a burial site. So they're taught all these things. They're taught about bones. So there's a lot of information about the skeletal system and how that could be useful for an investigation and, and how an anthro forensic anthropologist is utilized in forensics. So it's, it's been a wonderful, you know, sub career, if you will, again going on 19 years of teaching there.

[Anya Cain]

I was wondering, so when they talk about the body farm and like, is this. I know this is probably something that a lot of people focus on, but like it, there's, there's actually like a land with bodies on it that are like, like studied. Is that, is that correct?

[Major Pat Cicero]

Yes. So the bodies are obtained through donation as people donate their bodies to science. And the body farm is pretty well known in the forensic community. And there are several body farms, if you will, throughout the nation. Now, Texas, I believe, Carolinas, there's. I believe there's one up in the, even northern states now. But it all came originally the, the one was in Tennessee and people. There's one in Texas that's pretty popular now as well. And it's important to have that when we're talking about decomposition, forensic taphonomy, the changes of the body through the decompositional process. And it's important because I think time, since death still has work where we still need to work on Timeston's death. But the different climates provide different information with forensic tifonomy. So yes, there's, there's been times where there's been over 100 bodies either buried in the ground or above the ground. The federal law enforcement, law enforcement has asked several different times, you know, can you guys help us with a case that we're working on? We had these conditions. Can you replicate these conditions? And the research facility has, you know, obliged the request.

[Anya Cain]

One quick point of clarification. So forensic entomology is a study of insects at a crime scene.

[Major Pat Cicero]

My apologies.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, you're fine. I just want to make sure.

[Major Pat Cicero]

Yes, entomology is the study and the process of the. How insects react to death, how they will behave. And it's all about the, you know, what are the first insects to arrive to a body and the successive Patterns of insects and how it helps with time since death and location as to where death may have occurred.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. And I wonder if we can unpack the time since death question a little bit, because you mentioned that there's still work to be done. I think a lot of people like myself, you know, you watch TV shows, people are, you know, okay, this person would have been dead for seven hours, you know, kind of very definitive. Can you tell us about why that's really become more of a fiction and why it is more in flux today?

[Major Pat Cicero]

Sometimes you may see in Hollywood or TV shows they died at such and such, you know, the exact time, which would help, you know, confirm or refute any kind of alibis if, you know, they do have a suspect. Thompson's death is really a discipline that is dependent upon the actual conditions of a crime scene. When we talk about studying, you know, can we actually put the exact conditions in place at the time in which a person, through testing compared to the time in which a person actually died? Sometimes we do have information. Temperatures is one of the biggest considerations. Do we have the actual temperature, humidity? Do we have the, you know, the amount of airflow, you know, at the time of death? All these factors come into play when it comes to time since death. And it's not just with entomology. It's the actual process of autology and putrification that affects time since death and how the body reacts. Other factors such as a person's bmi, a person's physical activity prior to their actual death, person's metabolic changes, you know, in. In themselves, we can give a range, but of course, we're always striving to determine exact time since death. And there's so many techniques out there. I mean, we. We know about the algar mortars, liver mortis, rigor mortis, the chemical changes in gut, bacteria, enzymes, those are studied. We use vitreous humor fluid from the eyes to potentially determine time since death. There's factors that can be addressed there, but there are a lot of techniques. It's very accurate. But to say at pinpoint time. I don't believe we're there yet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, you talk about people getting that idea through Hollywood. That just makes me wonder, are there other misconceptions that people get about your work or how you do it from Hollywood or television?

[Major Pat Cicero]

I believe so. You know, when I first became involved with crime scene investigations, it was just prior to the CSI craze. Matter of fact, as I mentioned before, we're recording, I used to teach the CSI effect, and there's an actual definition out there that the courts have utilized. And it's something to the effect of the unrealistic expectations that you as jurors are going to put on these crime scene investigators in real life because of Hollywood. It's something to that effect. And I believe that's a very common question these days in court of law, talking about, you know, prosecutors concerned about the CSI effect. Are you guys going to consider this like csi, where you're expecting all this types of evidence? You know, so there is that concern. But yeah, you know, I, my wife, God bless her, she, she was a fan at some time. A lot of friends were fans, family members. And one of the things that, you know, I, I lectured about is have you, have any of you ever seen anybody in the, in the Hollywood shows and whether it's New York or Las Vegas, do about, I don't know, 78 hours of paperwork and, you know, the answer is always no, because that's not sexy. But everybody's dressed to designer clothing. They all look good, they're all in shape. Not like me. They're doing the actual high risk warrants. It's all about the show itself. Now, interestingly, there were, there were some things that were presented on the show that were actual factual. That is, and you know, it's some of the more sexy things, such as the ultimate light sources and the chemicals and things of that nature. Yes, that, that is, that is utilized. But they had to do something like that because they do receive guidance from actual crime scene investigators. But the, they, they put their twist on it, such as, I saw an episode, I believe it was an episode where they're pouring things into a wound. It was, I believe it was a knife wound and it came cast out of the knife wound. It was very strange. Certain chemical techniques that, you know, there's daylight that it's glowing. You know, it doesn't make sense, but it's what is provided in Hollywood. Yes.

[Anya Cain]

It's treated, I think, a little bit more like magic than science.

[Major Pat Cicero]

Yes. But it's to, you know, get more viewership. That's all.

[Anya Cain]

No one wants to see people, I mean, I think like they do have considerations. No one wants to see the paperwork. But I think anyone who ever has worked a job that's been portrayed in Hollywood will probably tell you this. A lot inaccurate. So CSI shouldn't be looked at as if those shows are some sort of documentary.

[Major Pat Cicero]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I imagine this is a bad question because there's no such thing as a typical case. But could you tell us in A typical case like when you would be called in and what your process would be and what you'd be looking for.

[Major Pat Cicero]

You know, at this point in my career it, it's going to be something serious. You know, it used to be that we responded to burglaries and things of that nature. And, and there's a far more property crimes that could utilize CSI work than you know, we're all accustomed to homicide or death related investigations. But it goes back to process of application of the crime scene investigators role. We have methodologies that have to be done at all times such as our protocols in Indiana. We have a defined seven step protocol and, and one of those steps is to ensure that there's, there's safety, you know, and are we legally there? We can't just, even in a murder scene, we can't just go in without a warrant. You know, we need permission from the courts. But you know there's, there's always the same, we don't touch anything until we document it. We, we don't collect anything. Everything needs to be measured. When we do this process over and over again, it becomes second nature. All scenes need to be investigated the same way. Some scenes don't need as much effort because they're simple. So it all really is dependent upon the scene and the actual crime itself. Does that make sense?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That makes sense.

[Anya Cain]

It does. You know, one thing with the case we're going to talk more about later, that's a situation where you weren't one of the initial crime scene investigators on the case, I guess. Do you need to be there from the beginning to analyze something or is it possible to kind of put it together based on all the things that are initially sort of collected and documented?

[Major Pat Cicero]

Right. It in many, well actually most of my investigations at this point with, with bloodstained power analysis and crime scene reconstruction are things I get after the fact. And we, we, we call that remote casework basically. So it's imperative as an instructor and people going through crime scene investigations to understand the proper procedures or protocols of evidence documentation collection. You know, because your collection of data measurements, photographs, photographs are the most important thing need to be accurate for others to view what your work was. And that's part of the instruction that I do with. I'm instructed besides the forensic etymology and I'm instructing bloodstained paraanalysis and a very large portion of that is teaching these investigators how to document blood stain patterns in a scene. So again my, most of my work is done remotely and this was the same same for Delphi Is I relied upon the. In this case, it was the Indiana State Police CSIS who did a fantastic job doing their job in order for. For me to do my job with the bloodstained patterns and the reconstruction.

[Anya Cain]

Before we really jump into Delphi, I just wanted to ask you. It sounds like you've worked so many different cases over the years, so many different, you know, types of cases. I'm wondering, you know, looking back, do any standout in particular as being particularly memorable or something that really comes to mind when you're thinking about the work.

[Major Pat Cicero]

That you do as far as bloodstained pattern analysis is concerned? There have been several. I remember a case I worked in for Porter county that was initially began as a case where the gentleman had. The husband, I believe is they were married, had shot his. His wife. And the Port County Sheriff's Office, I believe for the. The main agency involved. I was not involved with that initially. And it went to. Went to trial. It came up hung jury. And the defense attorney at the time, he, he made a good case. One of the areas that he made a pretty good case was the fact that the shooter in this case was proven to be the husband, didn't have any blood spatter on him because if he shot her, he should have blood spatter on him. That form of would be deemed as what's called back spatter. So I received a call from the Porter County Sheriff's office and the prosecutor and worked with them directly. And I believe with that particular case, I don't think forensic testing was needed because it was considered a back spatter case, which I had done testing in previous cases. And we know that back spatter is a result of, especially with gunshot wounds to the head, as a result of several different factors or what we theorized, several different factors. But we do know that usually with back spatter there's not as much as was referred to as forward spatter, where bullet exits the cranium area. But the back spatter doesn't travel as far. It's usually fairly small. So there has to be a distance determination with this. But in the end, what we were able to prove was this decedent. She had very thick hair and hair is considered an intermediate target, meaning that it would, it would basically prevent back spatter from occurring. Well, I was able to show that and sure enough, the jury found the person guilty. I think there's other factors, you know, played into that, not just the back spatter, but that just came in my mind. I remember cases were doing forensic testing with back spatter. The case I just remembered it was determining whether a person would have spatter upon them if they was a suicide versus homicide. This is very common actually. Context of this particular case would indicate that the person who was found guilty had, was, was guilty for other reasons, but in my role was to determine if the gun was in the decedent's hand at the time as it was being alleged by the defense. And, and this is where the responsibility of the blessed state paralysis incorporates reconstructive models of doing testing. We, we have a scientific approach is we identify the problem, we come up with hypotheses, we look at the data from the scene and what we can create as far as testing is concerned, what are our expectations? Of course, again, I said testing already and then eventually what are our conclusions? And in this particular case, the question was the gun in her hand at the time as being alleged by the defense. And we did, you know, a series of testing with my own blood and shot the gun and what, what would we expect? We wouldn't expect to see blood within the palm of her hand because it's wrapped around the firearm. This is common sense, but you have to test it to show that it's validity. Court well, when you looked at her hand, there were blood spatters within the palm of her hand. There's blood spatter where we expect to see on her. There are some other factors involved. But when we're talking about bloodstream paranalysis, this is the testing that we would do to complete this to, to provide some type of answer for the court.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's interesting because when you, you see a witness come in and offer testimony with conclusions, maybe you're not fully aware of all the hard work and testing that went into the formulation of those conclusions. Again, I'm sure this is difficult to answer, but how many hours of testing do you have to put in to reach some of these conclusions?

[Major Pat Cicero]

It all really depends on what the actual test is. That in itself was a day, at least a day of physical testing because you have to replicate and science demands it replicated over and over again. And so it was making sure we have enough blood. For me, that was one thing and all the testing procedures, the right location and, but other testing could, could be a lot longer depending upon what you're trying to copy. Especially with bludgeoning. That's just the testing part. You, there's also, you know, putting it together and typing it up, you know, that could be a couple days as well.

[Anya Cain]

So I remember this from the Delphi trial as well. But do you frequently use your own blood to test. Is that just like the most convenient way of doing it?

[Major Pat Cicero]

I think to avoid the scrutiny of animal blood, which we use for training, I think that the best thing to do is use human blood. We, we could potentially use expired blood. We've used that in the Red Red Cross or one of the other organizations. Hospitals may have expired blood that was donated. We use that for training as well. But you know, I think it is a far better use of, for the testing to use blood that's fresh, still worn. So there's a, when we plan our testing out, especially with Delphi case, I utilized my own blood and it was still warm at the time to address any kind of arguments or criticisms of how the testing procedures went. So I take that in consideration and, and ultimately, and again, another person who I really, really respect and has attended numerous trainings who is an expert in this area of reconstruction and blood state paralysis is Tom Bethel. And ultimately the goal is to tell the truth, no matter if it helps prosecution or helps the defense or vice versa. With hurting either one, it is to tell the truth. And the most accurate way to would be get more blood from the decedent. Well, that's not going to happen. So to use fresh blood at temperature I think would be the most advantageous way to tell the truth.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks very much to Major Cicero for taking the time to speak with us. We so appreciate it. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few More words about our great new sponsor, Acorns.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Little bit before we go about Quints? A great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of Compliments. When you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great, they feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my cl.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

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