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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
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Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [01:23]
Anya Cain
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- [02:00]
Kevin Greenlee
On February 14, 2017, crime scene investigators were confronted with an appalling crime scene in the woods at Delphi, Indiana. 14 year old Liberty German and 13 year old Abigail Williams lay in a shallow depression. A killer named Richard Allen had held them at gunpoint, forced them across a creek and then slit their throats.
- [02:21]
Anya Cain
Liberty and Abigail are no longer around to tell us what Allen did to them, but crime scene analysis can help answer some of the questions we have. The Delphi Prosecution Team Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McClelland, Stacey Deener and James Luttrell effectively wielded forensics within the pre trial phase of this case and during the trial itself. One key witness that bolstered those efforts was Major Pat Cicero of the La Porte County Sheriff's Office.
- [02:49]
Kevin Greenlee
Major Cicero testified at both the three day hearings over the summer and at the trial this past fall. The state of Indiana certified him as a crime scene Investigator back in 2004. He is a forensic expert with blood stain pattern analysis and he has decades of experience. Now he even trains new crime scene investigators in crime scene management and investigative approaches. And he's an adjunct instructor at the University of Tennessee's National Forensic Academy.
- [03:17]
Anya Cain
Major Cicero was brought into this case to look into the blood at the crime scene. After familiarizing himself with the scene and even conducting some experiments with his own blood, he testified about this brutal crime. He spoke about how these girls died, their pre mortem movements, or lack thereof, and the efforts that Allen took to conceal their bodies.
- [03:38]
Kevin Greenlee
One important note. Unlike the vast, vast, vast majority of trial experts, Pat Cicero takes no payment for his work at trials. Not even in instances like in the Delphi case where his testimony got bumped back and he was required to spend an extra day there. He just sees it all as part of his public service.
- [03:57]
Anya Cain
Today we will hear about how Major Cicero came to work on the Delphi case, his findings on what happened to the girls, and his assessment of the theory of the crime laid out in the defense's first Franks memorandum.
- [04:08]
Kevin Greenlee
Now that the gag order is lifted, Major Cicero and others are free to speak about their experiences working this case. This will be the second of two episodes featuring our interview with the Major. They will be released on the same day, so go back and listen to part one if you have not done so already. These episodes are part of our first person interview series. We seek to interview as many of the individuals with firsthand experience in the Delphi case as possible in the coming weeks and months. If you had a direct role in the case and are open to speaking with us, please send us an emailurdersheetmail.com this is all part of our ongoing effort to report on the Delphine murders. For many years we have not gotten the chance to hear directly from some of the principal figures in the case. That all changes now.
- [04:53]
Anya Cain
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [04:56]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [04:58]
Anya Cain
And this is the murder Sheet.
- [05:00]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases where the murder sheet.
- [05:08]
Anya Cain
And this is the Delphi first person. Major Pat Cicero, Part two, I guess. Had you previously been following the deli.
- [06:00]
Major Pat Cicero
Case just in the news prior to me getting contacted? No, I I mean I knew about the case through the media. You know, we were in our jurisdiction. Obviously we're about two hours away drive time from Carroll county and we were all aware of young girls that were killed. But just like any news cycle, things moved on. Obviously it was the news and Carol County, Delphi for the community, which absolutely could be too, too young, beautiful girls. But after that, you know, we hit what we had, what, five years, seven years, whatever. So no, I didn't know anything about the case other than, you know what? I knew that there were certain state officers that, that worked it that I was aware of.
- [06:49]
Anya Cain
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- [07:05]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [07:22]
Anya Cain
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- [07:47]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [08:04]
Anya Cain
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Kevin Greenlee
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- [09:29]
Anya Cain
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Anya Cain
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- [10:33]
Kevin Greenlee
How did you come to work on the case?
- [10:35]
Major Pat Cicero
I received I believe it was an email or call from sergeant Jason Page who I've worked with several times. The training with him asking to give a prosecutor's call and I spoke with Mr. Jim Luttrell. That's how it all started and they wanted me to work on the bloodstained part of it.
- [10:56]
Kevin Greenlee
You mentioned Jim Luttrell. What kind of guy was he to work with on this?
- [11:00]
Major Pat Cicero
Fantastic. Very well prepared. He has a lot of Knowledge about forensics and being a prosecutor just. He was very well prepared. I, I felt very prepared when, when I testified in this matter.
- [11:17]
Kevin Greenlee
So obviously you're coming into this case years after the crime took place. What kind of materials did you have to help you evaluate and analyze what happened?
- [11:29]
Major Pat Cicero
I was specific about what I wanted which consisted of evidence related documents such as lab reports, the autopsy report, photographs. Of course you need that. Diagrams. Diagrams are very helpful for. But I didn't want to have anything that was as far as interviews, things of that nature because I'm trying to base this off of a factual objective analysis as opposed to all the other extraneous information that is not going to really affect what happened at the crime scene.
- [12:09]
Anya Cain
At trial. I know that three Indiana State Police CSIS spoke you mentioned Sergeant Jason Page testified as well as Dwayne Datsman and Brian Olai. Can you speak about the work that they did that was sort of then passed on to you to sort of analyze and sort of what you made of that?
- [12:31]
Major Pat Cicero
Sure. Primary. The primary investigative work that I observed that they completed were phonographs and they were excellent. The officers again they're. They're Indiana state troopers who have an excellent quality assurance program that they know what they're doing at a crime scene. Scales were present. The photographs were clear. It makes it a lot easier for me to do my job. Yeah. There was. I compliment all of them. Dotsman. Oh Langland page compliment Lt. Cody. He was a sergeant at the time for the scan. Another compliment for retired sergeant Dean Marks. He was also there. There was an FBI agent. I, I observed his photograph so I don't think it was anything to do with blood stain if I remember correctly. But FBI agent Kramer he. I seen. I observed his photos as well. So collectively it was a very well documented case. And but major kudos to sergeant Page. He. His diagrams or subsequent diagrams with tire Sergeant Marks were fantastic. And sergeant Page again I've. He'll probably be upset with me for saying these things because he does listen. He is top notch. And the Indiana State Police with all their CSIS and I've trained with all of these gentlemen at these venues with bloodstained pattern analysis as well. They're just top notch in the Indiana State Police I could say sets the standard in the state of Indiana when it comes to crime scene investigations. So. But their work was excellent. It made it easy for me to do my job and I want to make sure that the. Your, your audience understands it's so important that we. Again, I'll talk about the piece of a pie of CSI is one aspect of it. And all these disciplines that follow, lab people, the, you know, when there's a fire and ballistics people, we have our bloodstain pattern, of course, but there's, you know, when you have all these part of the forensics and it comes together, it really provides knowledge and insight as to what occurred. It's, this is the part of the CSI effect that, you know, I can address. It seems like all those people in Hollywood have everything and they just do it all. That's not the case. Everybody has to, you know, stay in their lane and do their job. And I, I firmly believe that the United States police officers could have done this, let's say parent analysis as well. They chose somebody else from outside myself to, to help with this case. And it was truly an honor.
- [15:28]
Kevin Greenlee
I believe you also actually went out and visited the crime scene where the bodies were discovered.
- [15:34]
Major Pat Cicero
Yes.
- [15:34]
Kevin Greenlee
What were you looking for there?
- [15:37]
Major Pat Cicero
I was looking for the, what's called spatial relationships primarily between where the, where the tree was with the, what I refer to as an upside down L and the area between that tree and the larger tree to which Ms. Derman was located. And that was what I primarily wanted to see. But I also wanted to see some other things I was asked to at least consider in my testimony was visualization from across the creek and just some other factors to look at in, in, in evaluating this crime scene because again I, I testified more. Yeah, I testified more to other, other factors other than just blood state pattern analysis. I believe both the hearing and the actual testimony. So that helped me out as well to see what the foliage was like and even the topography of the ground was, it was interesting to see. I think the, in my personal opinion, I think the hearing the was the most important of my testimonies for the court to decide whether or not they're going to. Defense is going to be utilizing a theory of their own. So that was the benefit of it. And it's always, it's important for a blissing pattern person or person who's providing opinion to do as much as they can do, you know, to be as informed as possible and against the idea is to seek the truth, to provide information to the court and jury.
- [17:25]
Anya Cain
So in addition to bloodstain pattern analysis in this case, what other sort of things were you able to sort of put together for the court as you're doing this testimony? As far as crime scene analysis goes.
- [17:35]
Major Pat Cicero
I was asked about the branches that were associated with the girls and I provided a, my Belief of as to why they were present. And it was my belief there, there could be other reasons, but it was my belief it was to conceal the. I don't know if I can't remember if it was brought out in court, but one of the questions, if Ms. German was moved and it was my belief, yes. And it was based upon the very large accumulation of blood we call a pooling that was on the ground. And I'm very confident, and I believe that was in my testimony that that was the most logical place where she basically succumbed to her fatal, her injuries, then she was subsequently moved. Now that was based upon blood stains that were observed on her right, the bottom, I'm sorry, the backside of her, her right leg and calf. And sometimes it was hard to see on the photographs on the, the Quartz tv. But when you really zoom into the leaves between where her, where she was located and the large pooling of blood, you could see blood that was like transferred on the leaves as well. But there was some question about drag marks, if I recall. I mean, it wasn't that long ago and there was multiple layers of leaves even when I visited the scene. So you have the leaf fall and we, I wasn't surprised that we didn't see drag marks like, you know, bare earth compared to the rest of the leaves because basically leaves were sticking to the bottom of her leg as she was moved there. So the question, investigatively speaking, and it's something we do in crime scene reconstruction, is why move her to begin with? It makes no sense. And the reason why is contrasting colors between a body which is unclothed and the surrounding environment which would be the leaves, she would stuck out very much. So if the theory and valid theory is was they crossed one side of the bank across the river to the other side, how visible was it on the other side of the river? And it's very visible, especially with that time of year. And so the large part of her body was hidden behind this tree. Now the lower extremities of the body was an issue to which it was addressed with the large branch that was picked up and moved alongside of her, her legs. That was the reason. And if you looked at Ms. Williams, most of the branches were on her left side. So that was my belief when I saw that. But I believe the defense indicated in there that they were indicating those were similar. So that was what I was trying to address. The other, the other area which I thought was interesting was addressing predation and entomology. And I wasn't really expecting those questions, but There's a reason why there wouldn't have been etymology or predation. Just dealing with temperature and. But the entomology. But predation. Well, again, comparative to what I observed in Tennessee, we don't always have predation. It could be weeks before we see predation, and we've got bodies lying everywhere. The other areas that I was asked to address was if one person could have done this. And it's my belief one person could have done this. But could two people have done it? Yes, as well, I think I answered. I think that was asked of me as well. So those were the areas that was beyond just bloodstream paranal. So which was part of the reconstructive process.
- [21:46]
Anya Cain
I'm curious, you also were able to sort of recreate the blood stain on the tree, is that right? With there was. The defense characterized it as a symbol, whereas I think you were able to show that it was much more likely a transfer stain. Is that right?
- [22:07]
Major Pat Cicero
Yes, but that was the reason why we did testing was prim primarily for that tree. And it was interesting. We had an idea as to what the defense's hypothesis was at the time. They provided a manuscript of the crime scene. And I utilized that to say, okay, I see what the defense is doing. This is in the realm of possibilities. We should test. And whether the test is beneficial to the defense or the prosecution did not matter to me. So we tested it to be to seek the truth and again utilized my blood. I had a test subject who was of the same height. We tried to make this as accurate as possible. As Ms. German, some of the facts that we knew at the time was that the blood did belong to Ms. German. So the investigative question was what caused this parent transfer on the tree? Whether it was painted on deliberately into a shape, or is this possible that it was a just a mere transfer stain? And what could have created that? Well, based upon its height, its shape, its size, we theorized potentially a hand could have done that. And just like painting, painting is a transfer, but it would be a deliberate transfer into a certain shape. So what we. We set up the standards of testing. We. We did a bunch of replications. And what we found was that, you know, different portions of the hands, there were several areas that did not replicate that. But when we finally test subject instructed this person to basically hand facing the tree with the pinky finger or the blade side of the hand in an upward position, it was part of the palm, very edge of the palm that created that like the horizontal portion of an upside down L. And that was Replicated several times. Not the same volume, not the exact same shape, but the very similar, same shape and size. And there was, in that particular vertical portion of the L, if you will, there was an accumulation of blood, which is referred to as a flow pattern. So we know that there was volume to this. Could have been a single action, a double action. But what the testing showed was that other mechanisms could have created this besides painting. What was most surprising, and I didn't expect this at the time, was as we attempted to paint, like the festivals theorizing, we noticed that it would take many, many applications to create the volume and to create the entire upside down aisle, we'd have to go back to the blood source. And the only blood source of volume is not the small accumulation near the tree, but would have probably been Mitzvah's German. Is it possible that the salon went back and forth and back and forth to create this? I can't say no. However, it's highly unlikely when we can just take one voluminous amount of blood on a hand, portion of the hand and do it just one time. It's just not likely. And the other investigative question, at least we put to ourselves was what? Why would anybody go back and forth when the tree that she's behind or next to, why not just put it right there? You know, it's a subjective question, but you know, we, we put it all together. But the basis of crime scene reconstruction is again to address all potential possibilities. But what is the best explanation as to what occurred? And that's what we tried to accomplish. The crimes of extraction we had. We understand that there's multiple possibilities and it's up to the jury to decide what do we think happened. So there is some inferences, conjecture that's applied here, but what is reasonable, what is unreasonable? And it just didn't seem likely that the person went back and forth. Possible. But with miss German's blood there, an accumulation of blood, and the notion that she would put her hands probably onto the blood and left multiple. Keep in mind there was multiple transfer stains on this tree. Same tree. The best explanation was is probably transfer stain for Ms. Truman.
- [26:54]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm curious. We talked a little bit about the sticks. We talk about the transfer on the tree. Was this an unusual crime scene or do you see things of a nature like that in other crime scenes?
- [27:08]
Major Pat Cicero
Yeah, this was, it was not unusual. This is very similar to many crime scenes I investigated, crime scenes that all CSI has investigated very similar, where there's transfer stains and you know, blood spatter pooling. Especially with these types of injuries and flow patterns. So these are, it's a very common thing to see these types of patterns within the scene.
- [27:36]
Anya Cain
One thing that was talked about a lot at trial and ever since, I think is, is the lack of detection of offender DNA at the scene. As someone who has, you know, looked into many, many crime scenes over time, is that so unusual or is that perhaps a bit more commonplace than people might expect?
- [27:57]
Major Pat Cicero
It's not unusual not to find evidence of such as DNA. DNA is invisible. It's not, hey, I'm here. You know, I know that based upon what I know now, there was a lot of emphasis upon why there wouldn't have been touch DNA or epithelial DNA. Well, keep in mind, we don't know what the suspect was wearing. Did he have gloves on at the time in which all this transpired? So the epithelial may be heavily reduced. The lab, lab people still have to try to find, you know, enough of the skin cells at the scene. Don't get me wrong, there's. There's a lot of advances in epithelial or touch DNA. DNA's the detection and basically creating a DNA profile. It's very sensitive and can, can be done. But I, I'm not surprised in an outdoor scene that they didn't find the DNA standards.
- [29:01]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, you mentioned it was obviously an outdoor scene. Are there unique challenges when a crime occurs outdoors?
- [29:07]
Major Pat Cicero
Sure, yes. You still have to deal with conditions specific to this particular case. Very difficult to get equipment up and down that ravine. I walked that ravine and tried to climb back up that ravine. It was very difficult. Now imagine trying to get evidence, equipment themselves. Of course, the decedents up and down that, that hill. It's very difficult. That time of year was, especially at night, was cold. So the investigators have to deal with that. As I said, I believe they did an excellent job. Especially some of the aerial photographs that utilized a ladder they had to bring in in order to get a really good topographical downward photograph over the top of them. So, yeah, very difficult.
- [29:56]
Anya Cain
You know, we talked about some aspects of the crime scene. You know, Libby, Ms. German is unclothed and seems to have moved around a bit. Based on the blood stains. Ms. Williams is clothed, seemingly when she's killed, and not so much movement, not so much blood everywhere. Based on all that you were able to analyze on the blood stain patterns, can you, as best you can, piece together sort of what you believe the movements of all this to be? From what we can know, obviously there's aspects of this we can Never know.
- [30:27]
Major Pat Cicero
Yeah, that's. It's interesting. I was asked about that as well. There's. There's so many pieces of the puzzle that we don't know. You know, sometimes I compare crime scene investigations to like a 500 piece puzzle and. But I, we don't get the opportunity to look at the box. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. I, I always, I cheat and use the box. There's time. Many times I don't have the box and many of the pieces aren't there. It's not put together. And that's what the public wants. And I understand. When, when I'm doing the, when we, I'm sorry, when we are doing the reconstruction, we have to take factual data and do the best we can to put it in context to what occurred. And there are some things that are, we can infer that are logical inferences. You know what I compare it to in Kevin, you being an attorney, sometimes in the closing arguments we try to explain, we can infer certain things. For example, a fresh snowfall and we see tracks in the snow, but we didn't see the animal. So how can you say animals there because you didn't see it? Well, we can inferred because the tracks are there. Same thing with rain. Must be raining outside. And there's three people with umbrellas and they're wet. Well, I didn't see it rain, but they came in with umbrellas. So we can do these in inferences that they're based upon logic. Okay. The objective data is we know that this gentleman. Gentleman was like the suspect Mr. Allen had met these girls. We. There's auto recording of it down the hill. You know, we knew that the most logical location that would have been across that river would have been very shallow at the time. I. Looking at the photographs from there, there's, There has to be some inferences as to what occurs. We know there's a gun in place. That's data. Right. Because we have a cartridge. Unspin cartridge. We know that the girls were at some point undressed. Now was the one question I was asked was were they both completely undressed? And I can't answer that one. Yes, the other one, at least the bottom portion of her was undressed. The, the two brassieres, the shirt could have been on her at the time. I can't say as to who may have been inflicted with injury first, but there's evidence to show as to where the girls were located when they undressed based upon the items that were located underneath Ms. Williams, such as the Phone and a, I believe a shoe or sock or something like that. So, you know, inferences can be made that they undressed there and the clothes were moved later. You know, why Miss, Ms. Williams is wearing Ms. German's clothing, I don't know. But, you know, we can make it. We can make a conclusion that she's wearing the clothes, at least the top part of her clothing at the time in which injury was afflicted to her. There's no blood anywhere else on the scene except for Ms. German's at other locations. Miss, Ms. Williams blood is, is right there where she's located. So the inferences can be made that this is where she, she passed at what time. When the sequence in which Ms. German is at a different location where the blood stains are observed to her final location, it's an obvious indication that, you know, something occurred from where they addressed to where Mrs. Sherman's, you know, blood bloodshed occurred. So all these factors are, you know, brought together and analyzed. And we do. What's. What I did was called as an event analysis that, you know, shows step one, step two, step three. And it's, it's a very. It's actually common sense when you actually break it down and put it together for the jury of the court. But again, there's so many things that we don't know. We can go. You know, you utilize the information from the, the forensic pathologist as to how long it would take somebody to pass the. The main question was, well, who. Who passed first? I. I don't know. You know, there's so much information. We just don't know about that. Only Mr. Allen, who's been convicted would. Could provide that information.
- [35:08]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I think, I mean, obviously this is highly subjective, but I think one thing that was most disturbing for me, hearing your testimony and other testimonies at the trial was just like. It doesn't feel like whatever horror they sustained was brief because there's obviously the abduction component. And then what happened in that sort of, I don't know, kind of shallow indentation where they were murdered. It just seems like it was more drawn out than I guess maybe I had anticipated in my own mind. You know, just without knowing that much beforehand. You know, I'm. I'm curious. You know, obviously with. With this case, it's a very high profile case. It's high profile trial. How do you prepare for a trial and make sure you're ready to go and sort of deal with the stress of all of that?
- [35:56]
Major Pat Cicero
I'm not the most experienced bloodstained Person I look at, again, the Tom Bevels, the Ross Gardeners, the Paul and Suttons, the real big experts in this field. Humbly, I've been doing this long enough, seen enough crime scene photos that it's. It's just something that's got to get done. You know, I don't really think about it. You know, my. My sincere condolences to this family. And, you know, it was. It was a really horrific crime scene in what occurred for the girls, but it's just something that, you know, you. I don't really think about it. I guess that put it to the side. I. I've, again, humbly, I've testified enough that I had had my mistakes and errors, and through trial and error, you just got to get it done. It. You put the emotion to the side. And I. I cannot. I'll be lying to you if I don't have some degree of apathy or callousness to the, you know, seeing these things, especially in my time at the research facility and seeing death. I. I just consider this a privilege to try to provide some answers as to what occurred. So I think of it like that, and I can't say enough. My family's had to deal with maybe my idiosyncrasies and my lack of talking about things. You know, just being here, just so you know, is not in my comfortable spot, but I'm honored to be a part of it and to work with the Indiana State Police. And almost like a testament to my career as to what Dean Marks and all the officers that I've worked with and the trainers I've received is that we're going to continue on to try and provide answers to what we do.
- [37:59]
Kevin Greenlee
Did it take you a while to get to the point where you said you have a little bit of apathy to it all? Because certainly I remember when you were testifying both times, there was a lot of people in that courtroom crying, including one of us here. Did it take time to get to that stage?
- [38:18]
Major Pat Cicero
I would say yes. I'm, you know, I'm not dead inside. But, yeah, I. I think. I think if you. If you spoke with numerous crime scene investigators, I think we all have the very similar mindset that the job has to get done. And again, I am not the most experienced and seen it all done and all kind of guy. There's still things that may surprise me, but the. The aspect of getting through it is just. I'm not numb. I want to provide whatever best resources I can provide for the case, which will hopefully help the family and give some answers. And it's ultimately seeking the truth and doing what we can for the victims here. These aren't just words. It's something we have to live by. I'm definitely not a martyr. I just don't want people feeling sorry for me. This is the path I chose. There's so many of us on this same path that people don't know about. They just expect it. Citizens expected. And we should. They're taxpayers. And we're going to do this for.
- [39:23]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, it just. It just seems extraordinarily difficult work. And as you say, it is necessary to bring justice to the. To the families and those left behind and so certainly appreciated.
- [39:35]
Anya Cain
Yeah. I think one thing I was struck with by your testimony in particular. I mean, just there were so many horrible details like the. The possible tear on Libby's face and things like that. And just the way you talked about all of it was just so respectful of these girls, calling them Ms. Williams, Ms. Sherman. Things like that was just really moving and made me sad and angry given how little respect they were treated by Mr. Allen. So that was. Yeah, it was. It really stuck out with me as far as testimony at the trial went. So we thank you for your work and thank you for speaking with us. We really appreciate it.
- [40:13]
Major Pat Cicero
Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you.
- [40:15]
Kevin Greenlee
Can you tell us, Anya alluded to the tear. Can you tell us about that?
- [40:20]
Major Pat Cicero
Yeah, it was, you know, something that we work with in training is talking about dilution, dilution of blood. You know, and there's a certain appearance to it. It's lighter in color. In this case, standing from, I believe is the right eye down towards the ear. There was no injury to the right ear or that. That side of her face. It was a diluted blood stain. And, you know, of course, we made sure that we got. All of our opinions are peer reviewed. And so, you know, it was accurate. That one stain that we observed around the eye appeared diluted. What would cause that? Well, you have to, again, go into the realm of crime scene reconstruction. What are the potential possibilities? Rain. Random drop of moisture from, you know, humidity on a branch. I don't know. I don't know if it was a tear, but I have seen this before. You know, we've got dilution associated with blood on the face. And so it. Absent of rain, absent any kind of moisture. This would be what would be consistent. The tear. And it's based upon my own experiences and. And the observance of delution. You know, I. I want to. It's easy to look at this case and say this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. And it, I think it's important to understand it's not like these girls are happy when this is all happening. You were talking about a 14 and I believe 13 year old girls. A gentleman, let's say gentleman again, sorry, appears by all evidence that he had a firearm with him. And we know that Ms. German had injuries that she succumbed to and when those injuries happened and if they're all injuries happen at the same time or at intervals, we don't know. But it's not like she's having a good time. And this is something that, you know, we would probably expect her to be yelling, crying, screaming at a 14 year old girl and as a gentleman is inflicting injury. This was more likely terrifying for both girls, obviously. So the observance of what appears to be a diluted blood stain flow pattern from the one eye to the ear would be very probably common. So that's what we observed in that. And that said, that's just being factual and objective to what the evidence shows, not to add emotion to it. But that's, that's what we had.
- [43:09]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. But it definitely, you know, it paints a picture of what happened to them. That's just horrifying.
- [43:15]
Kevin Greenlee
I, I was very struck simply by what a respectful, eloquent witness you were. And so I'm just. Another silly question. How do you do that? How are you able to go there and convey these very emotional and sometimes very complicated concepts to a jury to, in a way that they can grasp it so well?
- [43:40]
Major Pat Cicero
I think it's through the repetitive nature of what I've done over the years. You know, it's some of the training we receive being factual, not providing anything more than just answer the questions, but do it in a way that is professional and, and it's the jury that I'm talking to, the court can hear me, but it's the jury that I'm talking to. And I try to make it simple. I could use big words all the time and that's not, that's not the, the goal is to impress them with me is to try to provide the, the, the most accurate and simple explanation and the best explanation as to what occurred and just to be attentive to how I'm doing it or how any person who's testifying is doing it. It is nerve wracking being up there. Truthfully, I didn't even see the. I'm so focused on Mr. Luttrell's questions and of course the defense questions and talking to the jury that I didn't even, I don't even remember seeing Mr. Allen. I was so focused on doing my job and being accurate and you know, thinking about this is what I documented, this is how I'm going to testify to it. And not to say anything different than I did that I already spoke about, whether it be at the, my report or the, or the trial or the hearing prior to the trial. So it's just a matter of getting used to it. And so many young detectives and the crime scene investigators that I work with, they're just, you know, very nervous and I understand. I was that way too. But in time, you know, you learn this is just one part of the process and you're actually getting the opportunity to explain it to, you know, layman, if you will, the jurors and the court sometimes. And it's like at this point in my career, I consider more of an opportunity rather than something to be concerned about because at the end of the day, you're just telling the truth. And even though I actually want to commend the defense, I know they, they tried their best. Obviously I didn't agree with some of their assertions, but as far as, you know, they are officers at the court and they need to be respected as such. That's why, you know, I take it, make it a point to shake their hands and thank them because they know what they're, they're trying to accomplish something because that's what the system tells us, that's what the system needs to be. But at the same time, you know, I don't think there was any kind of tricks or anything like that. They did their job and then, but again, I respectfully disagree with what they were trying to say.
- [46:19]
Kevin Greenlee
Is it nerve wracking sometime to face cross examination from defense attorneys?
- [46:24]
Major Pat Cicero
Sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. It. But I, you know, I do believe if we sought the truth and we try to, you know, do the best we can, defense can say whatever they want to say. As far as, like, we did a, a lot of times it's what we didn't do or we did a shady job. I believe the, that's right. I remember something about the cartridge casing being photographed. And I know criticisms can be made at any point of investigators duties, but, and I understand what they're trying to say, the, the fungibility of the, the cartridge is that they didn't really, there wasn't, you know, an inference that they didn't do their job. Right. Hence the evidence must be thrown out. At least that's what I took it at. I said they didn't do anything wrong. They documented it by taking photographs. Sure. Ideally taking scale photographs would be great right then there. But that's not the time to do it. That's just a photograph that it's there and then pick it up and then let another expert like a lab person examine for fingerprints or whatever evidence. Because more we handle it, the more that you could, you know, hurt other evidence. So that's the defense's role. And, and, and that has to be understood by an investigator.
- [47:47]
Anya Cain
Looking back, is there anything that stands out to you that you think you'll sort of take away from this case.
- [47:52]
Major Pat Cicero
Or this trial to answer that question? Is we in? I find it astounding when I reviewed the crime scene narrative from the defense and the, the subjectivity and inferences and conclusions they made compared to the what the prosecution in my role is where I have to, I cannot do that. I can't create something that's not there or make up a story because it fits their narrative. Everything has to be factual and based upon, you know, what is. Even though I identify multiple possibilities, it has to be a reasonable possibility, you know, to make an assertion like for example, that the suspects dressed the person afterwards to fit their narrative that there's multiple people involved. What's based on what? You know based on what. Because you didn't take the time to analyze the evidence like I did. So that, that stands out to me. I, I've, I've told. When I was in charge of our detective Bureau, but to this day, during my teachings the Friends Academy, when I'm teaching bloodstained para analysis, I keep telling the investigators, if you question if you should do something, do it. Because I assure you, the attorneys, the defense attorney especially is going to question why you didn't do something. That's where they get you. And so, and of course everything within reason here. But you know, if you think that you should. I don't think I'm going to diagram something, for example, just to throw something out there. Yeah, diagram it. Because that should be something that's part of your job. For example, don't let, don't let that be an argument later on, you know, so that, that stood out to having a manuscript because you don't see that maybe because of high profile case that was provided. So that stood out and it actually assisted in my role as to answering questions. Hence the reason why we did some forensic testing.
- [50:20]
Kevin Greenlee
It's ironic that a defense memorandum ended up helping you with your testimony which ultimately Helped secure the conviction of Mr. Allen. Just make my own comment.
- [50:33]
Major Pat Cicero
It did. I mean, it focused our attention as to, you know, things to look at. But again, I will not criticize or talk poorly of the defense attorneys. I think they did what they had to do to try to exonerate Mr. Allen. That's part of what the system requires.
- [50:53]
Kevin Greenlee
I'm curious. How often do you do the kind of work you did on Delphi in other cases?
- [50:59]
Major Pat Cicero
In many instances, you know, doing the testing and visiting the scene wanted a lot of times with the visiting scene is not. We're not able to do that. But the testing is not always required. And we're talking about bloodstained pattern analysis. Again, it is a discipline that is required, that knows that blood is a fluid and adheres to our physical loss. And under similar circumstances, conditions and force, it will behave the same time and time again. So I call this a comparative science in a sense. Whereas with fingerprint identification, you get exact matches, we compare scenes and blood in the scenes to incidents that may have occurred. But we have to utilize the context of the scene to make determinations.
- [51:51]
Anya Cain
Is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or think it's important to stress?
- [51:56]
Major Pat Cicero
I just, again, want to. One, thank you guys. It was a sincere honor to be a part of this. I can't say enough about my mentors and people I work with. Dr. Neil Haskell, Sergeant Marks, retired Sergeant Marks, Jason Page, all the investigators associated with this. I thought they did an excellent job. It's just one of those things. I'm proud to be a part of this whole process as I'm coming to near the end of my career, which I'm still in the midst of doing things. I have trials still coming up. I'm hoping that the next generation has the same opportunities that I've had and will continue on with the Crime Reconstruction and Bliss State Paranoid and all the other forensic disciplines. Yeah. So thank you for allowing me to provide some insight.
- [52:52]
Kevin Greenlee
Thank you so much. It's been.
- [52:53]
Anya Cain
Yeah, absolutely.
- [52:54]
Kevin Greenlee
He's been fascinated.
- [52:55]
Anya Cain
Thank you. Thanks very much to Major Cicero for taking the time to talk to us. We so appreciate the care he takes in doing this important work.
- [53:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [53:26]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [53:49]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [54:01]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.
- [54:23]
Kevin Greenlee
Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?
- [54:30]
Anya Cain
Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.
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Kevin Greenlee
We love our sponsors.
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Anya Cain
Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.
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Kevin Greenlee
That can seem daunting.
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Anya Cain
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- [56:00]
Kevin Greenlee
Just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.
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Anya Cain
Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically. Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just. They've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high quality. High quality, high value.
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Kevin Greenlee
Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?
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Anya Cain
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- [57:27]
Kevin Greenlee
Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?
- [57:46]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of look luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.
- [58:11]
Kevin Greenlee
You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.
- [58:14]
Anya Cain
I think I have, yeah.
- [58:15]
Kevin Greenlee
And deservedly so.
- [58:17]
Anya Cain
Also like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I, I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a, a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.
- [58:52]
Kevin Greenlee
I do wash my clothes.
- [58:54]
Anya Cain
I know you wash your clothes, but I mean you're filthy.
- [58:58]
Kevin Greenlee
You just made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.
- [59:01]
Anya Cain
But you don't really.
- [59:02]
Kevin Greenlee
I launder them.
- [59:03]
Anya Cain
You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.
- [59:09]
Kevin Greenlee
Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Com.
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Anya Cain
There you go. So you can go to quince.com msheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.commsheet that's q u I n c e.comm s h E E T.