The Delphi Murders: First Person: Updates and Conclusions: Part One

Summary

Podcast Summary: MurderSheet – "The Delphi Murders: First Person: Updates and Conclusions: Part One"

Release Date: February 24, 2025

Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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Overview

In this episode of MurderSheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve deeply into the ongoing developments surrounding the Delphi murders case. Titled "The Delphi Murders: First Person: Updates and Conclusions: Part One," the episode serves as a culmination of their extensive First Person interview series, where they engaged with various individuals connected to the case. This part one of the concluding discussion touches upon Judge Francis Gull’s recent court order, the emergence of Ricky Davis and Kagan Klein’s conflicting claims, and the broader implications for media access and public perception.

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1. Reflections on the First Person Series

Timestamp: [03:17 – 04:24]

The episode opens with Áine and Kevin reflecting on their extensive First Person interview series. They acknowledge the series' completion, noting that while there might be occasional future interviews, the bulk of their in-depth discussions on the Delphi case have concluded. Áine mentions their ongoing work on the book Shadow of the Bridge, highlighting the intense focus required for such comprehensive reporting.

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2. Judge Francis Gull’s Order and Media Access

Timestamp: [05:50 – 20:43]

Discussion Points:

• Judge Gull’s reaction to media requests for court exhibits.
• The tone of Judge Gull’s order and its implications.
• The challenges of media access in a high-profile case.

Áine initiates the discussion by addressing Judge Gull's recent order concerning media access to court exhibits. She describes the judge's response as "snarky" and "petulant," expressing frustration over repeated media requests for materials like the video captured by Liberty German. Áine praises Judge Gull for her adherence to legal protocols during the trial but criticizes her handling of media and public access, suggesting it has inadvertently fueled conspiracy theories.

Kevin echoes these sentiments, remarking on the unfortunate tone of the judge's order and how it might be misinterpreted by those not deeply familiar with the case. He emphasizes that Judge Gull maintained fairness in the courtroom, ensuring both the prosecution and defense were treated justly. Kevin posits that transparent media coverage, possibly through courtroom recordings, could have enhanced public understanding and mitigated the spread of misinformation.

Notable Quote: Áine Cain at [07:00]: “...her handling of some of this stuff has actually just increased and given fuel to the fire of conspiracy theories. And that's not helpful.”

Kevin Greenlee at [10:04]: “If there was a camera in the courtroom... most people would have a much higher opinion of Judge Gold than they do today.”

The hosts discuss the logistical challenges faced by the court in providing media access, acknowledging the immense workload of the trial court, which handles over 25 murder cases alongside numerous felony trials. They critique the lack of a clear, established process for media requests, leading to confusion and frustration on both sides.

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3. NBC Universal and Twist Media’s Motions to Intervene

Timestamp: [12:39 – 20:43]

Discussion Points:

• NBC Universal Media LLC and Twist Media LLC filing motions to intervene.
• The court's response to these motions.
• Implications for media access and transparency.

Áine explains that NBC Universal Media LLC and Twist Media LLC filed separate motions to intervene in the case on February 3rd and 7th, respectively. These motions aimed to compel access to public trial exhibits. The hosts dissect Judge Gull's court order, which criticized these organizations for making overly broad requests without specificity. The judge emphasized the necessity for "particularized specific requests" to facilitate the court’s ability to manage the vast array of exhibits efficiently.

Notable Quote: Judge Gull at [14:23]: “...just because you claim to be NBC or ABC or PBS or CBS does not make you NBC or ABC or PBS or C.”

Áine and Kevin discuss how the court’s stringent requirements might disadvantage non-traditional media outlets, like podcasters and YouTubers, compared to established media corporations. They highlight the difficulty in navigating the court’s protocols, which were not clearly communicated beforehand, leading to inefficiencies and increased tensions.

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4. Interactions with Cindy Hebert and the Media Pool

Timestamp: [21:01 – 24:08]

Discussion Points:

• Appreciation for Cindy Hebert’s role in organizing the media pool.
• The subsequent removal of MurderSheet from the media pool.
• The resulting tensions between traditional media and independent creators.

Áine and Kevin express their gratitude towards Cindy Hebert, a producer from WTHR, who initially welcomed them into the media pool. However, Cindy later advised their removal, a decision that coincided with Judge Gull’s stricter media access policies. This exclusion heightened tensions, particularly between traditional media personnel and independent content creators, who felt marginalized and unfairly treated by the court’s allocation of public seating and access.

Notable Quote: Kevin Greenlee at [21:06]: “One thing that Cindy did that I loved was she invited us into the media pool.”

Áine adds that Cindy's professionalism and dedication were commendable, emphasizing the unfairness of their removal and the broader implications it has for inclusive media coverage.

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5. The Rise of Ricky Davis and Kagan Klein’s Claims

Timestamp: [30:02 – 54:25]

Discussion Points:

• Ricky Davis’s allegations against Kagan Klein.
• Kagan Klein’s responses and credibility issues.
• The nature of Ricky Davis’s claims and their inconsistencies.

The conversation shifts focus to Ricky Davis, a prisoner who claims to have received incriminating information about the Delphi murders from fellow inmate Ron Logan and attorney Kagan Klein. Davis alleges that Klein provided details that were not previously disclosed, suggesting corruption and cover-ups within the prosecution team.

Áine and Kevin meticulously examine these claims, highlighting significant inconsistencies and credibility issues. They note that Davis failed a lie detector test and that the information he provides does not align with established facts of the case. Kagan Klein, on the other hand, vehemently denies having any substantial information about the murders, further undermining Davis's allegations.

Notable Quotes:

Áine Cain at [32:06]: “Including the mainstream press. The most recent episode we did devoted to that, we were very blunt and said, it's not worth your time.”

Kevin Greenlee at [35:21]: “Kagan Klein does indeed have serious, serious, serious credibility issues.”

Áine Cain at [37:59]: “What we’re trying to do is kind of pick out what we think is relevant to our listeners and not necessarily just air attacks on people...”

The hosts delve into their communications with both Davis and Klein, showcasing the fragmented and contradictory nature of the claims. They emphasize that despite attempting to engage with Davis, his defensive and incoherent responses only further discredit his assertions. The episode underscores the challenges of discerning truth within a tangled web of conflicting testimonies and highlights the importance of evidence-based reporting.

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6. Analyzing Ricky Davis’s Threats and Further Communications

Timestamp: [56:26 – 59:44]

Discussion Points:

• Ricky Davis’s aggressive and threatening communications.
• The implications of his behavior for the case’s integrity.
• MurderSheet’s stance on engaging with Davis’s proclamations.

In their ongoing examination, Áine and Kevin reveal a particularly troubling communication from Ricky Davis, where he issues threats against the hosts for their reporting efforts. This exchange not only casts Davis in a hostile light but also raises concerns about the safety and professionalism of sources within high-stakes legal cases.

Notable Quotes:

Kevin Greenlee at [56:34]: “You clowns are in a butt business for the wrong reason. Keep playing with my name and you will regret it.”

Áine Cain at [57:52]: “I’m very terrified. No, I’m not. I’m being sarcastic. This is.”

The hosts express their apprehension but maintain their commitment to unbiased reporting, dismissing Davis’s threats as tactics to intimidate and discredit journalistic endeavors. They reaffirm their dedication to presenting factual, corroborated information, distancing themselves from Davis’s unfounded and hostile narratives.

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7. Concluding Remarks and Future Directions

Timestamp: [59:24 – End]

Discussion Points:

• Acknowledgment of the incomplete discussion on First Person.
• Plans to address concluding thoughts in part two.
• Reiteration of their commitment to thorough and honest reporting.

As the episode nears its end, Áine and Kevin humorously acknowledge their extensive focus on updates, leaving concluding reflections for part two. They apologize for any perceived digressions and reaffirm their dedication to delivering comprehensive true crime journalism.

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Final Thoughts

In "The Delphi Murders: First Person: Updates and Conclusions: Part One," MurderSheet offers a nuanced and critical examination of the Delphi case's latest developments. Through thorough analysis and candid discussions, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee illuminate the complexities of media access, judicial conduct, and the tumultuous rise of contested narratives like those presented by Ricky Davis. This episode underscores the podcast’s commitment to in-depth, evidence-based true crime reporting, providing listeners with a clear, insightful perspective on one of the most challenging cases in recent history.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls. It also contains profanity. So let's get into it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's get into it. We've been doing a series that we've called First Person. We've been talking to a variety of people connected to the deli case. In some ways, I think we've likely reached the end of that series. It's always very possible that we'll get a few more here and there, but certainly at the rate we've been doing it, that's now concluded. So before we moved on from that, we thought it'd be worthwhile to sit down and talk about some of our reflections on that series. And also, as long as we're talking, Delphi Judge Goal issued a rather interesting order not too long ago. And then there's some more stuff in the continuing saga of Ricky Davis and Kagan Klein that we thought was worth discussing.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, the Ballad of Ricky Davis. So, shall we get into it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's do it.

[Anya Cain]

So this conversation turned out to be a lot longer than either of us anticipated. So we're going to divide it into two parts. This is going to be part one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Part two will be released on the same day, so you could listen to them both on the same day. I think we're releasing these on Monday, but count is the Tuesday episode. One of them does.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is The Delphi First Person Updates and Conclusions, Part one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should we start with the order that Judge Go recently issued?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we'll talk about this. And I think one reason we wanted to sort of highlight this is because it can kind of, a lot of people ask us, you know, when are we all going to see the exhibits, things like that, the exhibits from court. When are we going to see the video that Liberty shot on her phone, you know, and this, I don't know. The answer is we don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But before we get into the nitty and gritty of what she had to say, should we make a few general comments about the overall tone of judge goals, words and what we think of that?

[Anya Cain]

Sure. So what this is, is she, she's, she's kind of responding to a request from the media to get exhibits and this, this filing she responded with is, is maybe a bit snarky, maybe. I would, I would describe it as a bit petulant, a bit kind of like, how dare you ask me this? And, and how I feel about this is that, you know, I'm going to say this, I've said it again and again and again, but I, I feel that Judge Francis Gull, when it came to the law on this case, for the most part, perhaps with one notable exception, pretty much adhered to. What would I would expect from a judge. I thought she actually did quite a good job commanding the courtroom during trial and being fair to both sides. The one weakness I see with Judge Gull in this case, and I think it's a pretty important weakness because obviously it concerns what we do, but I don't think she's been good on media and public access issues. And I think that's, there's a, it's not just us saying, well, we want this stuff, so we're annoyed. It's saying that the public deserves to have more answers. And I feel that her handling of some of this stuff has actually just increased and given fuel to the fire of conspiracy theories. And that's not helpful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And I think the tone of this particular, I think it's an unfortunate tone. I think it is a tone that you could understand if a person is not doing a deep dive into the case and just knows the big points about the case. If that person looks at this, reads it and thinks this judge is pretty mean, pretty unreasonable. Maybe this judge was also unreasonable in how she treated the defense. I don't think that's the case. But this is not an order that really covers her in glory, in my opinion. I also Think it's worth noting that in life sometimes, I'm sure we've all had people that we've all known, people who seem to be really kind to everyone but us. And we've had a bad experience with one person. And I think in those instances, that affects our personal judgment of that person. And I think a lot of reporters have had bad experiences with Judge Gull. And I think understandably or not, I think that has colored some of their coverage. And I think reporters who look at things like this and see how badly they and their peers are being treated by the judge, I think that has to color how they cover the trial and its aftermath. And I think that's very unfortunate because as Anya mentioned, the ironic thing is Judge Gull actually has a good story to tell. She handled the legal aspects of the case in an above the board manner. She protected Richard Allen's rights. She deserves credit for that. And I think if there was a camera in the courtroom, if there was an audio recording of the courtroom, most people would have a much higher opinion of Judge Gold than they do today.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's like self sabotage. And again, I understand part of it. We've talked about it endlessly. We don't need to get, get into it again. But in, we'll, we'll talk about what, what's happening here. So, and I'll give you a sense, we, you know, listen, we've been writing the book on this case. We've been writing Shadow of the Bridge, which is gonna be out in August. We've been really going hard on that. We, we've not had a lot of time to do a lot else. And that's why we've been doing so many first person interviews, because it's like we're working on this. We can't just be pivoting to other cases right now that would not be in the best interest of us, those cases or our audience. Because, you know, it's better to focus, I think, in a situation like this. But we've, we did reach out on January 6th asking for exhibits, you know, just seeing what's the situation, what's going to be the process. We received a brief response from court staff indicating that sort of, at some point in the future, media may be permitted to view the exhibits that are not sealed and confidential and that it would probably be after the filing of the transcript with the Indiana Court of Appeals, because the exhibits are needed to put together that transcript.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And to be clear, I believe that email came from court reporter Jody Williams and it was very Professional.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, very prompt and professional. Listen, it's a little bit vague, but at the same time it does set expectations. And also my view of it was, you know, Kevin and I were, after repeated attempts, not considered media by this court. So it sort of seemed to be telling us, you know, like, whatever, whatever's gonna happen, we're not gonna have a part in it because we're not media.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

As far as this judge is concerned. Although I will say the Indiana Supreme Court disagrees. But yeah, so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you're not bitter.

[Anya Cain]

But I'm not. I'm not bitter at all. I'm not bitter at all. But, you know, so. Okay, so. But anyways, we appreciate that response, that clarity. Or maybe if it's not clear, at least it's sort of indicating, well, perhaps after the appeal, again, like, we just don't have a lot of time to like fight about this stuff right now. But other media filed into the case saying we like the exhibit. So that was good to see. We're looking at that and saying, okay, maybe things will get released this way. Potentially. We like to automate things here at the Murder Sheet, we get all kinds of alerts about our episodes. We schedule emails in advance. We set reminders for ourselves to do interviews, lest we accidentally ghost a detective or a defense attorney. Automation makes life easier because it's one less thing to have to think about. That's why we love Acorns. This is an automatic investment service that's built to help everyone invest no matter how much money you have.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Let me say this, it's certainly always good to hear more about the people filing into cases or the organizations filing into cases. But to me personally to some extent, doesn't matter what Twist LLC is, doesn't matter who they are. The fact is they are asking for the same rights and the same privileges that are granted to media organizations anywhere into members of the public. So I think that's all that matters.

[Anya Cain]

In the filing, Judge Gull says that NBCU on behalf of Dateline NBC emailed them January 8th requesting public records in the order she writes. This court in the court reporter received thousands of emails regarding this case. This court has no way of verifying the true identity of people who have represented themselves to be media or anyone else by email. Just because you claim to be NBC or ABC or PBS or CBS does not make you NBC or ABC or PBS or C. End quote. So, okay, getting a little snarky here. I don't really know what the media is supposed to do other than just try to reach out and like it's not like there's been some sort of designated process by which everyone's supposed to do this where they're not. I could understand that annoyance if it's like, guys, I told you to do this, but I don't really know what they're supposed to do. So then she expressed some annoyance that NBC was asking her court to prioritize their request, I guess over everyone else. And you know, yeah, I don't. She said, quote, this court refuses to allow the media or the public to dictate its schedule or work responsibilities by making such priority requests. No authority has been advanced by NBC or Twist Media LLC that authorizes such demand, end quote. Yeah, I mean they wouldn't have any authority to make a priority request, but I think they're just, they're just Doing their jobs.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if I understand it correctly, if I recall correctly, it's been a couple of weeks since I read the NBC request. I think they were, if I recall they were basically saying there's a ton of exhibits. We can't expect you to go through all of the exhibits and give us everything. So we would like to prioritize just a couple of items. So I think when they were saying priority request, they were saying just get us this handful of items or either.

[Anya Cain]

Way, I mean they're on deadline. So I mean I like, I think it's important to have an understanding of, of how the media does operate. I think you don't have to like it or agree with it, but I guess getting mad about journalists or producers trying to get something by a deadline, it's just sort of like that's what they're expected to do. You like, it's not personal, I guess, you know, so they talked about. And then this is where the court got into something that I think is important to highlight. The exhibits are needed for the production transcript. If one is requested by the parties. Those exhibits are exist now in two bankers boxes. They took weeks to organize and could exceed 15 volumes at the end of the day. And it will take weeks to prepare confidential and non confidential volumes of these exhibits. So it's not as simple as like, oh, I'll share my Google Drive with you and you can see all the exhibits. It's a, it's going to be a complicated process. There's confidential stuff that should not be out there. There's, there's non confidential stuff that can be out there. But at the same time this is going on, a transcript may be being prepared for appeal and that ultimately is more important to Richard Allen and therefore takes priority in, in this situation, takes priority over even public access. I would agree with that. I think a person's appeal is more important than this stuff. So it's not as simple as somebody clicking a button, flipping a switch. I think that's important to remember. I think, I think that's a fair point. But again I think some of the good points here are maybe lost somewhat by the, by the tone. And then also what the judge notes is that the requests from the media have been overly broad, not specific enough and they're not going to guess what people really want. So what NBC wanted was recorded police interviews with Allen. She wants to know which one. Exactly. And then another one was any and all recorded prison phone calls between Allen, his wife and mother. Audio. And the court noted that they're not in possession of all those because not all of those were entered into evidence. They want to know which calls are being requested. And the media also requested the 43 second phone video recorded by Liberty. There's a couple of versions of that. There's the stabilized version, there's the original version. So she's asking. That's not specific enough. She's saying which one?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And in terms of Indiana recorded police interviews with Richard Allen. Okay, well, we know there were, for all intents and purposes, there were two. There was his conversation with Liggett and Steve Mullen, and then there was Richard Allen's conversation with Jerry Holman. The complicating factor is that I believe both of those were edited. Certainly the interview with Jerry Holman was edited.

[Anya Cain]

I think they both were to remove stuff about polygraph.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is NBC asking for the edited version, the unedited version? So I understand what she's saying here.

[Anya Cain]

She's thinking about it like a, a lawyer and a judge. They're thinking about it like journalists. When I read it, I was like, I could, I could see myself making requests like that because I, you know, I would think that's pretty specific, but in the, in the, from the court's perspective, it's not. And I also understand that. I think one thing, I think, you know, there was always going to be this act, you know, interest in seeing these publicly. I think it maybe have been a good thing for there to be some kind of expectation setting or process by which that would happen that could have been communicated at a, you know, an earlier date so that there wouldn't need to be so many emails and there could be like, at this time, this is what will happen and this is how you get what you want. I mean, is that. Would that have been totally not a thing they would do?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It would have been nice.

[Anya Cain]

But anyways, so they also talk about. She also talks about how there, this is where things kind of get a little wild, actually. I like this part. She shouts out Cindy Hebert with wthr wonderful producer there, thanking her for organizing the, the media pool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So one thing that Cindy did that I loved was she invited us into the media pool.

[Anya Cain]

I love Cindy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this, this person who Judge Goel says did a great job, was then told by Judge Goal to kick us out.

[Anya Cain]

Cindy was amazing. Cindy, my hero throughout this thing. Even though we obviously did not end.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Up in the media pool, that was not Cindy's fault. No, Cindy was very professional. She was great.

[Anya Cain]

She was great.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And she was nothing but kind words to say.

[Anya Cain]

About, she is a true professional and she really did amazing job. I mean, she was in a position where like, I mean, the pressure was enormous. She had all these people to deal with and she just was a consummate professional. And so I think we appreciated her just from looking on that, looking from behind the pane of glass separating us from the media. But I think the people in the media, I'm sure, appreciated her work too. So it was nice to see her get a shout out. I like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Very nice person.

[Anya Cain]

Very. Yeah, she just, she's great. So she talks about how, by she, I mean gull. She talks about how she gave front row access to the media, gave remaining public seating to the media, quote, much to the displeasure of the podcasters, YouTubers and true crime enthusiasts, end quote. You didn't know what she was talking about there. But see, I remember, I, I actually remember there were a lot of complaints about that. See, what you have to understand, everybody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She did not give them the remaining public seat. She gave them access.

[Anya Cain]

She said they basically, if you want to get in line, you feel free, you can get in with the rest of the public if you didn't get a press pass that day. That's what she's talking about. Some people were indeed upset by that. What you have to understand, people, is at this trial, you know, we're in the public seating, we're in the line, and people in the traditional media who didn't get a press pass that day, along with people on more of the public side, on more of the podcast, YouTube side, are all coming to us to complain about the other party. We're trying to be like Switzerland, like, haha, can we get along? And everyone's the, the traditional media people were very upset that basically like these kind of what they regarded as rubberneckers are coming to watch this thing and you know, don't know how to act in some cases and are taking up space from them. They view their job as more important than people basically watching it for entertainment from the other side. They're saying, well, these people think they're better than us and they're kind of like trying to crowd us out. And like we, you know, they already got a seat up there, they had their chance. So why, why are our seats being taken? So, you know, we really tried to stay out of that particular fight. That may surprise some of you because I feel like given the amount of blood feuds we're in, but I, we. It was one of those things. I just think tensions were high there and it was People, you know, people were on edge. So I think that's just what happened. And I think that's what that's referring to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And apropos of nothing, I'll mention this. There was all of this tension and stress and turmoil about the seats. And once my line number this, this, this, this, that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And the fact is, if I would say if there were just like maybe 10 more seats available, everything would have been fine.

[Anya Cain]

That's so true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If there were, there was just, there was just a. There was just not quite enough seats.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's, that's exactly right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so there was a number of things that could have been done to alleviate that situation and completely release all of this pressure. Yeah, but I digress.

[Anya Cain]

So this is, this is what she's talking about. She also talked about how at the end of each day of trial, all credential media were invited. They could go into the well of the courtroom, they could review all the exhibits in person. And she even says Dateline NBC producer Marianne O'Donnell was present. We talked to Marianne, very nice lady. She had access. I don't know why she emphasizes this because obviously Ms. O'Donnell and the rest of the NBC Dateline people would. It's not just enough for Marianne to go view these with her eyes. They want to play them on tv, presumably, like, that's why they're asking for them. So, like, I, like, like, you know, I don't. There seems to be like a discrepancy between like what they want and what she's understanding them to be asking for. Although she may just be, I don't know, being kind of legalistic. I don't know, it's, it's just, it is what it is. But she talks about this. I think, I think this is an important point. Quote, this court is one of the busiest trial courts in the state of Indiana with over 25 murder cases set for jury trial, as well as hundreds of other major felony cases pending jury trial, attempted murder, rape, child molesting, robbery, burglary, arson, corrupt, business influence, etc. End quote. Obviously, here is a bit like, miss me with your penny. Anti media requests. I, I got, I got some serious stuff to deal with. And you know, to a certain extent I get the frustration. It's like you guys are all banging on my door for this stuff. I think that's why it might have been good to kind of set expectations, have a bit of a process going into things. So there could be this kind of like understanding with the media here's. When you can expect to get stuff, if at all. Or here's what, like, here's the process. Don't bother me until March or whatever, whenever the appeal is going to be. Whatever. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But do you think, just a hypothetical question. Let's say Judge Goal served you with some kind of a summons that you did not respond to in a prompt way. And do you think if you wrote Judge Goal a letter saying, you know, judge, you're right, I do have to take care of this. But you know what, Judge, I'm so busy. Do you think Judge Gould would have looked upon your explanation with favor?

[Anya Cain]

I think I'd still be in jail as we speak. You know, the media is annoying. We're annoying when we've been doing journalism.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nah, we're charming and delightful.

[Anya Cain]

No, it's true. But that's the job. That's the job to be annoying because you want to get stuff to the public. You can't really get around that. So, you know, being annoyed by the media, it's fine if you are. People are entitled to their feelings, but at the same time, I think there has to at least be an understanding of where they're coming from in order to kind of, you know, be able to kind of get through all this. So. What. What? Surprisingly, dispo. This was wild. She accused Twist Media LLC of plagiarizing NBC's filing, saying, this is basically the same thing. And also, I don't consider Twist Media to be media media. Welcome to the club.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't understand why she doesn't consider the media. And I thought it was. I was surprised that she accused them of plagiarizing. If you were filing a request for the same sort of materials under the same sort of laws, I would expect there to be a lot of similarity in your argument.

[Anya Cain]

Surprisingly, given the tone, she actually does not deny NBC's request. She says, quote, if the media public would submit particularized specific requests for an actual exhibit introduced in the jury trial in this matter, the court will make the exhibit available at a date to be determined and end quote. And then what they're. What she's saying is that when they get those specific requests for an actual exhibit, the court and court reporter will set aside times and dates on its extremely busy calendar to accommodate such particularized requests. The media public cannot expect the court and court reporter to guess at what they're asking for in this cause, end quote. So I don't. I don't know what this means. Does this mean that basically people can Come watch the videos at times or they will be released via like an email or something. I, I don't, I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know. I wish it was a little bit clearer.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sure it'll be something that's not going to make anyone happy. But you know, that is what it is. Again, where you don't like we've been trying this whole like, as you know, we've gotten a lot of documents released one way or another. We have fought this fight people, we have been in the trenches. But they're like, I don't feel like we can do anything at this point, you and I, I don't mean like the audience, I mean like Kevin and I, because again we're, we were, we were not allowed in the media pool. We were not considered media by this judge. It seems like a lot of this is going through traditional press. So I, I hope something comes out, but I, I don't know what to expect and we don't, we don't have any information. So when people are often asking us, I just, I'm like, your guess is as good as mine. But yeah, I think filings like this by the judge kind of do feeding to conspiracy theories. I think some of the information is good and probably people to realize that, you know, there's, there's a way to do this and, and whatnot. And some of the frustration I can understand but I, I just think generally public access was not great. I think if everyone, I think in a different world with a different judge or maybe a judge goal who favored public access, we could have some of these things that people are saying would have been put to rest by now. But that's just my take. Shall we move on to the. Ricky. Oh, do you, do you want to say anything else?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just wanted to repeat what I said before. If the judge had actually allowed cameras in the courtroom or recordings in the courtroom, if she had made access to the actual trial proceedings were open to the public, I think people would have a higher opinion of her because her actual performance in the courtroom itself was praiseworthy. And I think people would have seen that. And not only would they have a higher opinion of her, but I think they would have a better understanding of the case and a lot of the crazy conspiracy theories would no longer be out there.

[Anya Cain]

And you know what? Throw in cameras at that three day hearing and nobody would be doing this lost cause nonsense about how Odinism would have saved Richard Allen and the jury would have wept tears of joy as they acquitted him because that theory was so good, you know, no, people who said that did not see what we saw or they're actively lying. They saw it and they act like that's the case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, let's talk about this Ricky Davis stuff again. So as a quick reminder. Yeah, the defense originally put all their chips on Odinism and law, so now they're apparently putting their chips on Ricky Davis after the trial is over and are about to lose. So Ricky Davis is a person who is in prison and he says he was in prison with Ron Logan and Ron Logan told him all about how Ron Logan committed the murders. Problem is that the details that he says he got from Ron Logan don't match the actual facts. And on top of that, Ricky Davis massively failed a lie detector test.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, but there's more. Ricky Davis also claims that Kagan Klein also made incriminating statements to him about the very same case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's been getting a lot of play in some quarters recently.

[Anya Cain]

Including the mainstream press.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Including the mainstream press. The most recent episode we did devoted to that, we were very blunt and said, it's not worth your time. I mean, this is, this is worthless. There's nothing to it.

[Anya Cain]

I keep sighing, I'm contagious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But with that said, you have to do your due diligence. And so since this story came out, we reached out to both Kagan Klein and Ricky Davis, got several messages back from each man. I'd like to begin by highlighting what Kagan Klein told us. I'm not going to read all of the messages we got from these people, but I want to read some of them.

[Anya Cain]

Can you explain why you're not doing that? Because I think that would be helpful for people to understand.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why don't you explain that?

[Anya Cain]

Well, I think, I mean, we're not going to put anything in here that we are not 100%. You know, I think like there's basically just wholesale putting out their statements from people where their credibility issues is irresponsible and not helpful. So I think what we're trying to do is kind of pick out what we think is relevant to our listeners and not necessarily just air attacks on people or claims about what people are doing when we don't have evidence of that and we don't have multiple people corroborating it. So. And that's the, that's the, that's the, that's the case for, with Klein. It's actually what he's saying Ricky Davis is doing because we don't have additional reporting to back that Up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, there's a couple of things that Kagan Klein says about Ricky Davis that.

[Anya Cain]

We'Re not including, which, if true, would hurt his credibility. But if not true, then we'd just be airing something that's false against somebody. And then for Davis, again, you know, it's. It's. It's his kind of playing into this whole conspiracy theory that the defense is so adhered to, I don't feel comfortable just putting out there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay. So as Anya mentioned, Ricky Davis claims that Kagan Klein talked to him about the murders. So we said to Kagan, hey, Ricky Davis, have you talked to him? And Kagan Klein said, that dude is an idiot. I've only talked to him maybe two times. He's one of those guys in prison that tries to write all different prosecutors and get time cuts on people's case. It's laughable. We then wrote him back and asked the obvious question. You said you talked to him. What did you talk to him about? And Kagan said, I talked to him about my lawsuit against ISP due to me getting stabbed. Okay. What that's about is Kagan Klein has told us and that he. He claims that he got stabbed in prison, and I think he wants to have some kind of a lawsuit as a result of that. So he's saying that's why he talked to Ricky Davis. I don't know for a fact if he got stabbed not or not, but I can tell you that he claimed he got stabbed to us months, if not a year ago.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Another obvious question to Kagan Klein was key. Part of the story Ricky Davis is telling is that you knew Ron Logan and Ricky Davis even alleged that Kagan Klein would be, as Anya memorably put it, the pedophile pet guy.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because Kegan Klein, according to Ricky Davis, would help Ron Logan access child sexual abuse materials on his phone. And so Kagan. So we asked Kagan, do you know what. Did you know Ron Logan, quote, No, I did not know Ron Logan or anything about that case. If I did, I wouldn't be in prison for 43 years over a few pictures, unquote. What do you make of that?

[Anya Cain]

Well, this is something I do go back. I mean, I. Obviously, we've covered Kagan Klein's story extensively on the show, and I think it's fair to say mildly, he has credibility issues of his own. That's. Yeah, I would say he has a lot of credibility issues. I think it's interesting that he's minimizing the cache of child sexual abuse materials he had Here, and that's certainly not ideal and concerning, but I would say that on the count of him saying, if I didn't, I wouldn't be in prison for 43 years. Kagan Klein is somebody who I always do feel is looking out for Kagan Klein. And I think had he had any information to give about Richard Allen, Ron Logan or anyone else. And we know that he tried to, you know, he tried to basically say his father committed the crimes, his father, Tony Klein. But what he, the story he told police didn't add up based on the evidence. And his phone shows him in Peru, Indiana that day. We know he was in contact with Liberty German via his Anthony Shots account. He was catfishing her. But the, the Kagan that we've interacted with and the Kagan that we've kind of, you know, reported on for a while, why, if he had, if he had some kind of connection to Allen, I don't understand why he did not divulge that. I think he would have played that card because again, he got pretty much the worst outcome possible for himself with his CCM conviction. He got over four decades in prison. That's a, that's a pretty steep penalty. And I, I guess I just, I, I don't understand why he wouldn't have deployed some kind of negotiations early on had, had he been able to. I think it's because he didn't know. I think, I think he was. I think his communication with Liberty was very likely a coincidence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I want to really underscore and point arrows to some of the stuff you just said. Kagan Klein does indeed have serious, serious, serious credibility issues. With that said, based on what I know about Keagan Klein, he is a person who always acts relentlessly in his own self interest. In the past, whenever he has made statements indicating he may have had some connection to the crime, it was because he got something out of it. He was leading investigators on for a while. I think he thought he might get a shorter prison sentence or something of that nature. He was sending messages to women on the outside indicating he had information about the case. And he was doing that because he was getting sexual messages back in return. I don't understand why he would make incriminating statements to Ricky Davis because I don't know what Ricky Davis could have given him in return.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Cain]

And again, if you're wondering why haven't you asked Ron Logan for comment, he has passed away. He died of COVID So it's you. So basically, Kagan is the only one we can go to about, hey, what was your interaction with Davis?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, also, it could go to Ricky Davis.

[Anya Cain]

Right. And that's what we did.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We did do that. We got several messages here from Ricky Davis. We'll read the last one in full when we get to it.

[Anya Cain]

We went. Reached out at first, I believe on February 6th of this year.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think so.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. We just kind of an initial reach out. We gave him our names. We said we run a true crime podcast. We're covering Delphi. We heard about some of your interactions with Ron Logan. Can you just tell us about your experience?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll go so far as say, in all of our communications with him, we never told him, we believe you. We don't believe you. It was all just very basic, simple questions. And in one of them, you know, Kegan Klein said, oh, you know, he writes to prosecutors. Like, we'd write it. We'd ask him about that. So that's one thing to stress. The other thing to stress is, I want to phrase this delicately. Ricky Davis's writing style is challenging. He has. Seems to have some difficulties articulating.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, sometimes he's borderline incoherent in my mind, and I think you saw that with some. The letter we read from him previously. But he's hard to understand. I feel bad for any prisoners forced to use him in any way as some, you know, doing any filings or whatever the heck he's doing because his communication style is not clear.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. I don't know. That's an educational thing or something else.

[Anya Cain]

It could be anything. I'm not, I'm not criticizing the guy for it because, I mean, you know, if he, if it was a lack of educational opportunities or, or other things, then it's just a note to let you know that, like, some of this was kind of hard to understand what he's saying exactly. Or you kind of felt like he was like, you know, it's just a note about the. The writing, I guess, to kind of let. Let you know about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I see here he sent us a message just asking us more questions about us. And we told him we always try to be fair and accurate. We just want to get your perspective. And then he wrote us an email that seems very similar to what he wrote Max Lewis. Is that fair to say?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, very similar. It hits of the same points that he. He wrote to Fox59's Max Lewis where.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He says he seems to implicitly acknowledge that he failed the lie detector, but he tries to talk his way out of it saying, oh, they told me to write down the story I got from Ron Logan, but only condense it to two paragraphs. So then when I was asked if I was giving them the complete information, obviously I wasn't because it would take more than two paragraphs to contain it all.

[Anya Cain]

Jesus.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they asked me, you know, if it's true. Well, how do I know it's true? Because I'm only reporting what I was asked.

[Anya Cain]

Well, this guy seems pretty adamant that it's true because, I mean, he's inserting himself into this case to this degree. So I mean there's a lot of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, I think anyone who really understands how polygraph tests are administered. If I was to ask Anya a question on the polygraph, it would be about something that she herself would have knowledge of. I'm not going to ask Anya on the polygraph, did Kevin only eat one package of Pez last night? Because she doesn't know. Maybe I told her that. So there's no point in polygraphers asking people whether or not information that they did not personally experience is true.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, this just seems like excuse making to me. And also you can ask them if.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They believe it's true.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Do you believe it's true or are you telling the truth about what they related to you? But yeah, it doesn't add up. And it just seems like a lot of like, you know, oh, this is why I lost the game. It's because the other guy cheated and da, da, da. It's just like it's excuse making. It's very defensive. And you know, then there's something interesting. He talks about how he offered and think I, this was in the Lewis letter too. He offered to wear a wire for investigators so he could spy on Logan and they could hear his confession themselves. And he, he guaranteed investigators he could.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have it within 30 to 45 minutes.

[Anya Cain]

Was so very, very convenient, on demand. And he's even risking his own safety from talking to, I guess a you know what, like 70 year old man. So you know, what, what a hero profiles encourage right here. I would say for this one thing I think it's important to remember is if you have somebody who, you know, lies in their polygraph and fails the polygraph and also more importantly, conveys details to investigators that don't at all match up the crime. Match up with the crime, rather I should say, then why on earth would they want to wire you up and use you? I mean the, the responsible thing to do, the thing that I believe happened here and the thing that does not seem to be happening with Andrew Baldwin on the defense side for whatever reason is that the thing to do would be to walk away. This guy's lied. It's very clear he lied. He made all these statements about the, the case that don't fit what we see at the crime scene. Why are they going to wire him up and, and use him at all? He's, he's not a truth teller. And also there's, there's certain people where if they have, I believe, like certain convictions on their record, they're not going to be able to be used in capacities like this. You shouldn't be using someone who's a forger in a situation like this. I think, you know, I mean, like, I, there's no reason to use him undercover. It's just that, I mean, he seems very offended that he was not utilized in any way. Like he doesn't understand that. But it's because he's not trustworthy and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It'S because the story he says he will get is obviously a false story. I don't believe he would have gotten it. I believe if in some alternate universe where investigators were much poorer stewards of time and resources and in this alternate universe wired him up, I think he would have gone and talked around Logan and gotten nothing and then he would have come up with some excuse about. It just is how he comes up with excuses for why he failed the polygraph test.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but you know, it's just, it's just this kind of bluster and bluff that honestly makes me beyond the fact that he is an inmate and is a convict and has all this criminal history. I, I do believe that you can't necessarily write someone off based on all of that all the time. There can be people who are trying to do the right thing in a circumstance and just because they have a history with drugs, just because they have a history of crime, that doesn't necessarily mean they're trying to do harm. But I would think that somebody who wasn't inserting themselves into the situation based on lies and based on wanting attention or based on wanting to feel important or whatever the heck he's doing here. I, I would think that someone like that would be a little bit more open minded and a little bit more coming into this like, hey, this is what he told me. This is what I'm conveying to you. If you need me, I'll be over here. But I'm just passing it on to you. Ricky Davis does not have access to discovery. Ricky Davis doesn't know anything about this case when he's coming forward with this. So why is he so adamant that it's so important and correct? Wouldn't the normal thing to be to just comes forward and say, hey, I got this if it's worth anything. If not, whatever. Like you would be a little bit less committed to suddenly trying to be the hero in this case? I mean, am I, am I?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, yeah, I'm with you.

[Anya Cain]

Like this, this, this sort of entitlement and this sort of excuse making and trying to talk around every single angle doesn't add up to a guy who is just casually, hey, I'm just trying to help out if it's helpful, whatever. It doesn't. This story stinks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The story stinks.

[Anya Cain]

So let's move along.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also keep in mind that he's acknowledged that there was a point where he thought that Richard Allen was guilty.

[Anya Cain]

I can't wait for that to, I can't wait for the Ricky Allen saga of actually being pro Alan guilt to come out and everyone to lose, lose their minds. Because I, I just, that to me is funny. It's like he's, he's, he's like a YouTuber. He's like trying to see what he has an audience for. Hey, you guys like Richard Allen's guilty. Oh, no. Oh, Ron Logan, Kagan Kagan Klein. Ron Logan and Kagan Klein. I mean like, it's like seeing someone try to like, you know, find a, an army ofcranks on YouTube and just saying whatever until he hits on something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So again, I'm reading bits and pieces here. On February 16, we said, hey, what was Ron Logan like? What was Kegan Klein like? Ricky Davis wrote back to us on the 17th of February. There is so much to this, but when the appeal is released, you will see in a couple of days people have been lied to. And I know people will feel caught up about me being some prisoner. But when the appeal is released, I will speak more onto it. But people must know they've been lied to about the case for some time. And I intend to give evidence. So it won't be speculations, only factual basis. And I wanted to highlight that because it reminded me in the filings in the case, Baldwin said something very similar. He said that when he first went and talked to Ricky Davis in prison close to a year ago, Ricky Davis made similar comments about, oh, I can't tell you what I want to tell you, but it's all out there in these other sources. So it feels to me to be a classic con man's. Trick to tell you, well, the real evidence is just around the corner. Just hang out with me and support me now, and you'll get the real stuff somewhere down the line. And as I'm talking aloud and thinking aloud, it occurs to me that perhaps the defense in this case has been guilty of that as well, because they frequently say, oh, the real evidence of Odinism is just around the corner.

[Anya Cain]

It's just around the corner. Stick with us, and we're gonna get there. And then you get there, and it's nothing. And, oh, no. Well, the evil police and judge and prosecutor actually hit it around the next corner. Let's keep going. And then you're. You know, it's just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is the same sort of BS That Ricky Davis gave Baldwin over a year ago. If he really did have solid evidence and information, then you would think he would have put that in his very first alleged letter to the prosecutor.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And. And. And, you know, if he had information, you would think that he would be, at this point, oh, well, I mean, like. Like, let's remember this guy is alleging that Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland is. Is corrupt and hiding evidence and whatnot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Cain]

So why not? Why not state candidly to everyone, okay, here's what it is. He hid it from you. But now I'm gonna tell you, this is the point. Like, because they don't have anything, this is just nonsense. This is just smoke and mirrors. These are liars. So moving on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So he asked for our address. We gave him our business address, and he was saying, oh, you know, I'll be able to give you more information when the appeal comes out. Sure. So we wrote, quote, this is us, the appeal, explaining that you had written all these letters to the prosecutor came out. Is that the appeal you were talking about? We'd love to hear more from you instead of the lawyers, though.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, and also, to be clear, none of this is the appeal. I believe he's using the appeal interchangeably with Baldwin's recent filings, which are not the appeal. The appeal is going to be done by appellate attorneys. I think he just is confused by the terminology. But we didn't want to further confuse matters by saying, actually, it's not. That would have just been pointless.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In the same message we wrote, is it true you help other people write prosecutors computers to get time off? That's something we heard. So he wrote back on February 19, quote, I worked with inmates assisting with modifications, but it is general knowledge, really, as all inmates try to do at least one while incarcerated, mostly I do them for those who can't read well or things like that.

[Anya Cain]

Right. So again, I feel bad for anyone who's using this guy because his writing is just not great.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He also wrote. As far this is. Again, Mr. Davis, as far as talking out about the other things. Pardon me? As far as talking about. About. Let me try this again. As far as talking out about the other. There are things Andy Baldwin will reveal himself. Once that is done, we can talk, end quote. I think that was interesting because it is and pretty much explicit confirmation that Andy Baldwin has some kind of strategy that Ricky Davis is aware of and is a knowing and willing participant in.

[Anya Cain]

He doesn't want to do anything to disrupt Baldwin's strategy here. You know, I'll talk to you after he reveals himself. Yeah, interesting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But he, he's. Yeah, he seems to be very much a part of that strategy, for whatever it's worth.

[Anya Cain]

So I don't feel like it's fair to call Ricky Davis some third party who's just coming into this at this point saying, hey, guys, this is what happened. I mean, he's obviously working closely with the defense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There was something in this message that you highlighted that you wanted to read.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. So this is how he closes this letter. Well, first he notes he doesn't have anything personally against McClelland. He doesn't dislike him, but, you know, blah, blah, blah, He's a liar, he's corrupt. It's just ridiculous. Quote, look, I just want the right people held responsible. It isn't about people feeling closure, parentheses, selfish. It is those girls getting full justice. Anything less is a maki for their tragedy and justice. It isn't fair to them, period. I think that was supposed to be period, end quote. So I think it's interesting here. I, I don't know why a guy incarcerated who again, does not have the case filed, did not attend trial, basically by his own claim, heard things from Ron Logan that again, didn't add up, which I'm not convinced he even ever heard. And then from Kagan Klein, again, I'm not convinced Kagan Klein told him anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll go further. I don't believe Ron Logan confessed to the crime to this man. I don't believe Kegan Klein confessed to the crime to this man.

[Anya Cain]

I don't believe this man.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I believe Richard Allen is the person who did this crime.

[Anya Cain]

But beyond that, so this guy. But like, even if you were in prison and someone was saying something to you, I think you might be like, okay, well, they told me this, and if this matches the crime scene, maybe that's helpful to investigators, but you don't know that because you're not an investigator. You're not in the investigation. So this guy's suddenly incredibly certain that what he has to say is relevant to the point where he's saying that people are just clinging to closure about the conviction and it's not about the girls getting just like this high minded nonsense. I don't believe this man cares about justice at all. I don't believe he cares about anything else other than himself because that's what his actions have demonstrated to me. I mean this is, it's just bizarre. But again, why would this guy know why? Why like a normal person in this situation would not be this certain. They would just be saying, well, you know, if I told, if I told people that I committed a crime or somebody, if I, if somebody confessed to me and they said, okay, I shot them and I go to police and I don't know what the cause of death was. I have no way of knowing if what I'm saying is helpful or not. Because if they weren't shot, then it's out the window, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So I'm not going to be confident either way. I'm just going to bring that information and say, do with this what you will. But this guy, you know, he's the main character now as far as he's concerned.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay. So before we got an opportunity to respond to that, he sent us another email. Now previously we have been reading excerpts from his emails. We have been basically doing him a kindness because we have been picking the parts of these emails that are the most coherent and clear. Again, he's not a clear writer in this one. I'm just going to read the whole thing word for word so you can get the flavor of what he actually writes like. And I think there was a content warning at the top of the episode. There is some profanity in this.

[Anya Cain]

We got this on February 21st.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Quote, this is Ricky Davis to us.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, not us. To Ricky Davis.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is right after. This was soon after the other message. We had not written any messages in between. You clowns are in a butt business for the wrong reason. Keep playing with my name and you will regret it. I'm not that one. And fall back on that mess. You don't even know me at all. I'm not sure if you understand what you are getting into. You are playing when it comes to the sake of justice for those girls, dumb asses. And four more you're treading on Deep shit. Talking about someone you don't know better go do more homework. Dig deeper before you piss me the fuck off. What is wrong with stupid ass people? Actually, he said stupid ass people because he misspelled it. So how ironic that he misspelled the word stupid. So, first of all, he's clearly, that's some kind of a threat. So the star witness for the current iteration of the defense certainly is a charming gentleman.

[Anya Cain]

I'm very terrified. No, I'm not. I'm being sarcastic. This is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, stop being stupid.

[Anya Cain]

Stop it. Stop it. Stupid. I would say that it is a threat. I'm. We're not afraid of stuff like this. People like this are just ridiculous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And shortly after this, we got a notification that he had blocked us, which.

[Anya Cain]

Is interesting because he's, you know, he's the. He's the big man here threatening us, but then he's so scared of us emailing him back in a probably, you know, just a courteous manner of, like, what's the issue that he blocks us so he can't hear from us again? So obviously, you know, very position of strength there. I just want to know. I'd be very curious. I. What I think happened here is that he's probably in contact with a number of different people, and he mentioned talking to us to somebody, and they said, oh, my God, shut it down now. They don't want people like this talking to us and going on the record because they're afraid that we're going to be able to pull out lies that they told later. And unfortunately for Ricky Davis and for, you know, whoever is, you know, pulling his strings here, I think he already messed up probably a couple times, and I think that's going to be borne out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But, yeah, these. We've only got a portion of these emails. There's more gold to be mined there.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think there's. I. So I think it's too late. I think. I personally believe that Ricky Davis is going to be born out as a liar publicly. And I think this is ridiculous, but I think this is a. Again, like, we don't believe him, and we've certainly been critical, but, I mean, I think reacting to threatened people that don't believe your hard to believe story, again, doesn't really have the ring of truth or confidence that I think you'd want to go for.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, Mrs. Greenlee, do you realize we're like an hour into our big first person series wrap up, haven't even said a word about first person.

[Anya Cain]

We've done all the updates and none of the conclusions. And frankly it's embarrassing. But I guess we are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we need to move on.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we're just bloviating podcasters, so apologies to everyone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That can seem daunting.

[Anya Cain]

It. It is daunting. I. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this, where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically. Saving and investing that money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a, it's, it's a great fit for people who are starting out but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.commsheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] before we go, we.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Anya Cain]

Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and fall asleep pretty easily. And they're just, they've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them and they really make the show possible. I'm going to say this like you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us and it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're going to get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I a hemp.com and use code msheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T and after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where'd you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints? A great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talk compliments. I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft. And makeup they're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful. So. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices. Com.

[Anya Cain]

There you go. So you can go to quince.commsheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.commsheet that's Q, U I N, C E.commsH E E T.