The Delphi Murders: First Person: Updates and Conclusions: Part Two

Summary

The Delphi Murders: First Person: Updates and Conclusions: Part Two

In the second installment of their in-depth series on the Delphi Murders, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee of The Murder Sheet delve deeper into their investigative journey, reflecting on their experiences, challenges, and the multifaceted nature of the case. Released on February 24, 2025, this episode offers listeners a comprehensive overview of the progress and setbacks encountered during their coverage of one of true crime's most harrowing cases.

---

Reflections on the "First Person" Series

The episode begins with Áine Cain expressing gratitude and awe for the opportunity to engage directly with individuals connected to the Delphi case. She describes the experience as "surreal" and an honor, highlighting the trust placed in them by their interviewees. Cain emphasizes their journalistic approach, aiming to let guests share their experiences without imposing their own narratives.

Áine Cain [04:35]: "It was really surreal. It was an honor... I was just happy that a lot of people trusted us to have those conversations."

Kevin Greenlee echoes this sentiment, noting the meaningful connections formed through the series and the mutual respect developed with those involved.

---

Evaluating Coverage: Strengths and Mistakes

As the hosts assess their reporting journey, Cain candidly acknowledges areas where The Murder Sheet could have improved. She reflects on their initial neutrality and the challenges of maintaining it amidst evolving case dynamics.

Áine Cain [08:06]: "I can see mistakes we made covering the case. I can see where I feel like we've improved with some of our critical reasoning on the case."

Greenlee concurs, pointing out moments where the defense's arguments became "anti-factual," compelling them to address inconsistencies without overtly stating their stance on Richard Allen's guilt or innocence.

Kevin Greenlee [09:13]: "Another thing that was odd... the defense made the decision to, I'll say it, to lie about us in court."

Cain further explores the complexities of reporting on high-profile cases, emphasizing the importance of humility and the recognition that "things are always so much more complicated than you will ever know."

---

Challenges Within the Investigation

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the investigative hurdles faced during the Delphi case. The hosts dissect the infamous "misfiled tip," attributing it to "too many people involved early on" which led to the critical tip getting lost amidst the chaos.

Áine Cain [22:01]: "But I also want to say that I don't believe that the too many cooks in the kitchen... it's a systemic issue. It's not like anyone was lazy or bad here. It's just a mistake."

Greenlee reinforces this point, summarizing it as "too many cooks in the kitchen," highlighting organizational inefficiencies that hampered the investigation's progress.

Kevin Greenlee [24:12]: "I think one of too many cooks in the kitchen that you just so cleverly articulated."

---

Online Harassment and Media Misrepresentation

The hosts address the troubling trend of online harassment directed at law enforcement and defense attorneys involved in the case. They express frustration over individuals who see themselves as "real investigators" without any relevant expertise, engaging in baseless accusations and conspiracy theories.

Áine Cain [25:34]: "I think cases like Delphi take over and it's like everyone's like, well, this stuff is so crazy and all this stuff's happening here."

Greenlee suggests a constructive alternative for those genuinely concerned about the criminal justice system:

Kevin Greenlee [26:32]: "Instead of harassing people you don't know in other states, look to cases maybe in your own area that are not getting a lot of attention and try to do some honest boots on the ground reporting."

---

Critique of the Defense Team: Ricky Davis and Kagan Klein

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to scrutinizing the defense team's competence. The hosts discuss Ricky Davis and Kagan Klein, expressing disappointment in their performance and decision-making throughout the trial. They lament missed opportunities for meaningful dialogue, particularly highlighting Davis's unfulfilled offer to discuss the case's intricacies on the podcast.

Kevin Greenlee [31:30]: "Andy Baldwin told me more than once that he was very interested... but for whatever reason, he chose not to follow through on that."

Cain reflects on their initial high regard for the defense attorneys, which diminished as the trial progressed and their tactics became increasingly questionable.

Áine Cain [33:23]: "I regret those episodes. It was done with good intentions... It just didn't work out."

The hosts criticize the defense's reliance on "nonsensical conspiracy theories" and extravagant courtroom arguments that failed to resonate with the broader audience, ultimately weakening their case.

---

Honoring the Victims: Abigail and Liberty

Towards the end of the episode, Cain shifts focus to honor the victims, Abigail and Liberty. She underscores their bravery and the significant role they played in aiding the investigation, despite their tragic demise.

Áine Cain [48:34]: "They were able to take video of him and in Abigail's case, conceal the device... they were able to show the world what Richard Allen is and what he really is."

Cain poignantly reflects on the girls' potential and the immense loss their families and communities have suffered.

Áine Cain [48:34]: "They deserve to be remembered as heroes. They wouldn't get to have families of their own... but they were able to help solve this crime."

Greenlee reinforces this tribute, emphasizing the lasting impact Abigail and Liberty had on the case and the community.

---

Closing Thoughts and Lessons Learned

In concluding the episode, Cain and Greenlee share valuable lessons gleaned from their coverage of the Delphi Murders. They stress the importance of thorough, unbiased reporting and the need to recognize the human element behind every case. The hosts advocate for respectful discourse and the avoidance of sensationalism, aiming to honor the victims and support the true heroes behind the investigation.

Áine Cain [45:51]: "We have a bias toward wanting everyone to be competent professionals... that’s our bias."

Their reflections serve as a testament to the complexities of true crime journalism and the ethical responsibilities it entails.

---

Conclusion

"The Delphi Murders: First Person: Updates and Conclusions: Part Two" offers a deep dive into the intricacies of covering a high-profile case. Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide listeners with an honest assessment of their journalistic endeavors, the challenges inherent in such intense investigations, and the profound respect they hold for the victims and those who tirelessly worked to bring justice. This episode stands as a compelling narrative on the pursuit of truth amidst adversity, emphasizing the importance of integrity and empathy in true crime reporting.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

The murder sheet keeps us super busy and so sometimes between writing and podcasting and trying to sell these T shirts, we don't do a great job of taking care of ourselves. That's probably something a lot of people can relate to. We're all busy people with jobs and families and obligations. It can be hard putting yourself and your own health first.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Our brand new sponsor Prolon can Help Prolon's Fasting Mimicking Diet is a plant based nutrition program that is backed by science. It takes all the fuss out of fasting. Instead of giving up food, you undergo a five day program where you enjoy snacks, soups and beverages. Designed to make your body's cells believe they are fasting.

[Anya Cain]

It's designed to give a serious boost to your metabolic and cardiovascular health. Plus it's a no brainer. Your food comes in prepackaged and labeled so you know what to eat and when. They found that three consecutive Prolon cycles can reduce your biological age score by 2.5 years and cut your waist circumference down by 1.5 inches. Plus it gets you down to a healthier blood sugar level.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Fast with food. Take charge of your health.

[Anya Cain]

Try Prolon to help you kickstart a health plan that truly works. Prolon is offering murder sheet listeners 15% off site wide plus a $40 bonus gift. When you subscribe to their 5 day nutrition program, just visit prolonlife.commsheet that's P R O L O N l I f e.commsheet to claim your 15% discount and your bonus gift. Prolon Life MSHEET Add some luxury into your life without breaking the bank. Check out our wonderful sponsor Quince.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is a brand that's unlocking luxury products for all of us ordinary people. All the things that sound pricey and out of reach, like washable silk shirts and dresses, 14 karat gold jewelry, European linens, Italian leather handbags, sweaters of Mongolian cashmere and organic cotton. That's what Quince offers, but at an unbeatable price.

[Anya Cain]

All quince items are 50 to 80% less costly than those of their competitors. It's an amazing deal. They cut down the middleman and pass the savings on to you. And remember, by supporting our sponsors, you're supporting our show.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We recently gifted ourselves some pieces from Quint's. I got their suede bomber jacket. This one is very stylish and it keeps me really warm, which is helpful because it's been a cold winter. I also like the way I look in it, which is big for me.

[Anya Cain]

Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U-I-N-C-E.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet Bombas makes the most comfortable socks, underwear and T shirts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Bombas are so absurdly comfortable you may throw out all your other clothes.

[Anya Cain]

Sorry, do we legally have to say that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, this is just how I talk. And I really love my Bombas.

[Anya Cain]

They do feel that good. And they do good too. One item purchased equals one item donated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To feel good and do good, go to bombas.com wondry and use code wondry for 20% off your first purchase. That's B O M B-A-S.com wondry and use code Wondry at checkout.

[Anya Cain]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls. It also contains profanity. So let's get into it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's get into it. We've been doing a series that we've called First Person. We've been talking to a variety of people connected to the deli case. In some ways, I think we've likely reached the end of that series. It's always very possible that we'll get a few more here and there, but certainly at the rate we've been doing it, that's now concluded. So before we moved on from that, we thought it'd be worthwhile to sit down and talk about some of our reflections on that series. And also, as long as we're talking, Delphi Judge Goal issued a rather interesting order not too long ago. And then there's some more stuff in the continuing saga of Ricky Davis and Kagan Klein that we thought was worth discussing.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, the Ballad of Ricky Davis. So shall we get into it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's do it. This is actually part two of a conversation that turned out longer than we thought. We released part one earlier today. You can go back and listen to that and then pick up here with part two.

[Anya Cain]

And just remember, this is going to be in lieu of our Tuesday episode. We believe we're going to release this on Monday. Thanks so much for listening. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is The Delphi Murders. First Person Updates and Conclusions, Part 2. So let's talk about first person. So first person was a really surreal experience doing this series in a way, because I felt like the dog that caught the car where we've been observing, discussing, criticizing, just talking about all of these people for years without really getting any interaction. You see them in court, and that's pretty much it. And then suddenly we're talking to them and getting to answer. Getting them to answer questions that we've had for a while. So it was really surreal. It was an honor. And it was. I was. I was. I was just happy that a lot of people trusted us to have those conversations. So, I mean, it was. It was just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That meant a lot to me.

[Anya Cain]

It meant a lot to me, too. I would say that our approach to these interviews tends to be. I mean, if you listen to the show just for Delphi, you probably don't hear a ton of interviews except with just sort of experts. But if you listen to the show as a whole, you probably realize that our interview style tends to be just to kind of let people talk and share their experiences. We have a lighter touch than some, and that's just our personalities that we feel. Compliments. You know, what we want to do with interviews kind of. I don't want you to be hearing us just yammering about what we think is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We want to hear what the guest thinks. Whether. No matter what that guest thinks. Yeah. An example I. I can. I can pull off the top of my head is one of the attorneys actually, who's been involved with the Delphi case, Michael Osbrook. We once had him on the show to talk about the Delphi case. And we didn't argue with him. We let him talk and share his perspective. And that's just what we do. We want to hear from people.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And so at this point, we feel like, again, as Kevin said at the top, this is probably the end of the regularly scheduled first person interviews. We may very well get more people to talk to us eventually. That could be soon. That could be a long time from now. I just don't know. But as far as I'm concerned with a lot of people, you have to let people do things on their own time. And, you know, it is what it is. So we're really eager to get started working on some new cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're gonna be taking baby steps towards other cases.

[Anya Cain]

I'd really like to do that soon because I'm. I'm just eager to kind of get. Start tackling something new. But we wanted to have A few closing words on sort of what we feel we've learned and gotten from just first person series, but also just sort of the culmination of some of the Delphi reporting. And I will say I feel like looking back, like I can see mistakes we made covering the case. I can see where I feel like we've improved with some of our critical reasoning on the case. I think for a long time, you know, like we, I mean, I think everyone can kind of see the trajectory. We, we tried to remain very, very neutral in the beginning. At a certain point, there was a point where I think the defense's theorizing just became so anti factual that we felt we had to at least point out things that were becoming inconsistent throughout that prior to the end of trial and the conviction of Richard Allen, we did not discuss whether or not we thought he was factually innocent or guilty.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Another thing that was odd throughout this experience is back at the contempt hearing now, close to a year ago, oddly enough, the defense made the decision to, I'll say it, to lie about us in court. And I don't know why they would choose to demonstrate in such a dramatic way to people with the platform that they are liars, but that is a choice they made.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I don't think when I look at the totality of this defense team, I don't think that they necessarily plan things out more than a few steps in advance. I don't feel like there's a lot of strategic thinking. I think that's the sort of thing that is just an impulsive move that you throw off the cuff in court and expect, you know, and you don't really have any expectations on the future. But I think, I think that actually underscores some of the reason why I think they struggled with this case. We like to automate things here at the Murder Sheet. We get all kinds of alerts about our episodes. We schedule emails in advance. We set reminders for ourselves to do interviews lest we accidentally ghost a detective or a defense attorney. Automation makes life easier because it's one less thing to have to think about. That's why we love Acorns. This is an automatic investment service that's built to help everyone invest no matter how much money you have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've heard us speak about our sponsor, Acorns before. Today's episode is sponsored by them. Acorns is a financial wellness app that makes it easy to start saving and investing for your future. You don't need to be an expert. Acorns will recommend a diversified portfolio that matches you and your money goals. You don't need to be rich. Acorns lets you get started with the spare money you've got right now. Even if all you've got is spare change.

[Anya Cain]

I just wish we had had an app like Acorns back when we were just starting out. It would have saved us so much money related time and stress because it's really a no brainer. All it takes is $5 or even just your spare change. Sign up now and join the over 13 million all time customers who have already saved and invested over $22 billion with Acorns. Head to acorns.com msheet or download the Acorns app to get started. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns tier one compensation provided investing involves risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] and yeah, I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I've, I've alluded to it. I confronted Baldwin about it at the time. Yeah, it was a bizarre move. It was, it was an odd move. Yeah, I'll leave it at that.

[Anya Cain]

But you know, it just. Well, we'll talk more about the defense in a minute. But I, I, I think, I think when, when we, yeah, when we're seeing this kind of all play out together, I, I think that I feel like the big lesson for me and I, I always said this, but I think experiencing it firsthand is different than just saying it. Things are what, no matter what crime we're talking about, things are always so much more complicated than you will ever know. And like we all contain multitudes. There are so many nuances and just strange things and coincidences and mistakes and errors and whatnot. And you can't make assumptions. Like it's, it's just, it's important. Like, I will go back to the beginning of our show. The first episode Kevin and I ever put together was about a case that we just thought was a legal kind of little quirky, weird case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I remember this wasn't the first episode aired, but it was the first one we made.

[Anya Cain]

So it was a man named James Redline. He and his partner in the 50s robbed a Reading, Pennsylvania establishment that was part brothel and part restaurant. Odd little combo there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it was a case, I'll say, that is used often in law school classes because it illustrates felony murder in the limits of felony murder.

[Anya Cain]

What happened was they took hostages and then they were leaving. They were not leaving with hostages. Hostages, I believe. I think they were just leaving and the police had them surrounded. Redline's partner fired at the police, did not hit any, and did not hit anyone, but the police fired back, killing Redline's partner. Redline was arrested and charged with and convicted and convicted of a felony murder. Right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Because somebody died during the commission of a felony. It was his partner who died because he was shot by a police officer. And ultimately the courts came down on, well, something. A shooting and a death is not a crime if it was a lawful act. And a police officer shooting at a dangerous criminal is a lawful act. So therefore, Mr. Redline could not be held guilty of felony murder.

[Anya Cain]

So the reason I bring that up is because, yeah, it is a little quirky, weird legal scenario, but every case is its own universe with its own just insane arc and just stuff you would never know. And what happened was we ended up connecting with James Redline's son, who told us about. After his father's release, he became a pillar of a. Of a community. He became a volunteer fireman. He. He be. I mean, he was like this father figure to other people. He was a wonderful father to him. He didn't even know about his criminal backstory until he was a bit older. His son became a homicide detective himself. It was just this moving story about a man who did wrong and did something very bad and did bad things before that, but who ultimately was able to marry a wonderful woman, raise a family, become a trusted member of a community again. And it was beautiful. It was the most. It was one of the most, like, precious, beautiful stories I felt like I ever heard. And it just. It told me, you can't just necessarily assume something is just one thing when it could mean. It could be something completely different when you really look inside of it. It's not just this weird legal case study for law students. It's a. It's a story of a man who learned to become a good person and, I don't know, repaid his debt to society in a way. And I just. I don't know. I think that sticks with me as I'm doing this. And Delphi. Delphi could be like that at times, because you would. You would. We would all be looking at it from the outside. I always said we're like. We're like people peering in one window of a house. But we're not in the house. We can't see all the rooms. We can't see what's upstairs. We can't see what's behind the staircase. We can't see this or that. We're Just doing our best from the outside, and I just think it's important. And I. I forget this sometimes. I have to remind myself. I think you forget it. You. We all have to remind ourselves. You have to come into these cases with a level of humility that I don't know everything. I can't possibly expect to know everything at all times, and I certainly can't necessarily. I can judge behaviors, I can judge actions, but I can't necessarily look much beyond that. And we have to be okay with that, but we also have to be saying, well, you know, let's. Let's hold back on necessarily drawing conclusions. There were times in this case where I feel like I drew conclusions, especially early on, and turned out to be somewhat wrong. And so, yeah, this is. This is. This is. I don't know. Sorry for going on a whole ramble there. I guess what. What I'm trying to say is things are always more complicated than you will ever know. I feel like this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's so much nuance. We started by reading something that Judge Gold wrote, and she had some good points to make in that thing.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we don't have to throw everything out just because we don't like the way somebody's handling one thing, you know, and that's why, again, like, when we were. Even when we were becoming increasingly disillusioned with some of the things the defense was doing, one thing we were very adamant on when covering this is that does not make Richard Allen a guilty man. That does not mean that he should be convicted. Just because we don't feel his defense, the performance, or the credibility is good here, that does not mean anything about him. He is his own situation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Separate issues.

[Anya Cain]

Separate issues completely. And I still separate those issues, because guilty people, innocent people, all people, if you're constitutionally innocent or whatnot, you deserve a good defense. And a lot of our criticisms about the defense, especially very early on, were more of towards an eye towards is there. Is their client getting what he's supposed to be getting from them? You know, so in terms of the first person, in terms of the people we're actually able to speak to, I feel like one theme that came out for me is like, we talked to a lot of just normal people who tried very, very hard in this case one way or another and did not give up. That, to me, was the kind of key strength of the people behind this, whether you're talking about the prosecutors or people on the police side of things. They were able to continue working this for years and put in a lot of effort. I think that Hollywood and television tell us that sort of good investigative work is some troubled genius coming in and kind of sleuthing everything out themselves and, you know, putting the. The clues together and whatnot. I. That's. That's total nonsense, in my opinion. I think solid investigative work, solid police work, is about a team working very hard and going by the book. And I think that was reflected in these interviews. And they did not give up. And I think that ultimately was what ensured that this case became. Was. Was eventually solved. I feel like these people cared a lot. I. I feel like in. In a good number of these interviews. I don't know if it was always audible on the show, but people were tearing up, they were getting emotional, they were getting choked up. Then that was making me get choked up. And it. I think people cared deeply about this case who worked on it. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And I. I think after watching these people in action, it was a treat to get to talk to a lot of them. I don't feel like. I don't feel like from the beginning the media was necessarily equipped to cover this case. And I think that continues to be a disservice, frankly. I just think a lot of people in the media care about it too, and they try. It's just. I think there's a lot of. There's been a lot of sloppy reporting on this, and I think that's not ideal. I'll just say that when people say that, I mean, in fairness to the people in the media, I think for me, in the beginning, I did not necessarily. I think we had questions about the pca, we had concerns about the pca. I feel like over time, as that's kind of un. Unrolled itself and certainly through trial, I feel like the case was a lot stronger from the beginning than we realized.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We didn't fully appreciate what the PCA meant.

[Anya Cain]

No, it was difficult to parse because it's fundamentally based around a timeline, I think, as opposed to, like a smoking gun or a DNA, you know, hit or something like that. I think people have an easier time grasping that conceptually than a timeline. But I think that the thing is about the media is the media does not cover most cases. If you go into most homicide cases, no one's in the gallery. You're not seeing anything on the news about it. But fundamentally, I think a lot of cases are more similar to this than, say, some, you know, crazy DNA bombshells.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And so people just kind of think, well, that means it's Weak. No, it, it really doesn't. When people say the, the police bungled this or investigators bungled it or you know, this or that, you know, this is the big mistake. Keystone Cops, stuff like that. I, I don't, I don't think that, I mean, I think there's a difference between mistakes happening that should, and we're going to talk about this because I'm going to talk about what I think was the fundamental error in this case by police. But I think there's a difference between bungling something and making a level of mistakes that's just like humans are involved in this enterprise. You know, I mean there's, there's a, I, I guess like, I, I, I don't see a bungling. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree.

[Anya Cain]

I do believe there was a key mistake that I do believe led to a frankly tragic delay in justice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We all know what that was.

[Anya Cain]

Well, it's not, it's obviously the misfile tip, but it's not just the fact that I believe that happened in a way because there were too many people involved early on. That key mistake happened within the first few days of the investigation. That tip got lost very quickly. And I do believe that people work to get the manpower issue and organized and under control very quickly. But it was too late because that happened so quickly. And had a similar thing happened to a tip on like Sasquatches or some other random person who had nothing to do with the case. This may have been solved very quickly, but it happened to the tip that mattered and I, that that led to this delay. And I believe that that was just because there were too many people involved early on. I think that can be a lesson for people involved in a high profile case. I, when, when something bad happens, people want to help. That's a really nice thing about human beings. You know, we're social animals. We want to help. Other investigators wanted to help and, and other people wanted to help. So it's a situation where you can understand that. But I also think it's fair to say that that is, that is perhaps the most fundamental issue. You know, tip management, case management, too many people, people reporting to different people that those early few days of kind of complete chaos were ultimately what buried this. I think it is fair to also note issues like technical errors, glitches, things not recording properly. I mean, I think that's probably more par for the course than people would imagine. I mean, I think that's kind of just the realities of working with technology for any business. I guess I'm not really as, like, I kind of. I take the mindset of, like, that kind of stuff happens. It's not good. It's not. It's not to be celebrated, and it certainly can be criticized fairly. It's just, I. I don't really know what people are supposed to do about that necessarily, so I don't know. Do you think there are any fundamental issues that you see in this investigation that kind of stand out for you?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think the one of too many cooks in the kitchen that you just so cleverly articulated.

[Anya Cain]

But I also want to say that I don't believe that the too many cooks in the kitchen or the technology issues are like, the fault of anyone within the sort of unified command circle or, you know, it's not like it's. Sometimes I think people really want to find a scapegoat where it's like, this is the bad guy. This is every. Like, we can blame all the problems on this person. And even someone like the dispatcher who may have gotten Allen's name wrong. It's like it. It's. It's a systemic issue. It's not like anyone was lazy or bad here. It's just a mistake.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That kind of morphs a bit into something else. That came. That struck me about these interviews is almost every single person we interviewed has been attacked online at one time or another just for doing their jobs. And so it's upsetting to sit across a desk or a table from these good men and women and get to have a sense of them as people and to understand how much they care about the case, how hard they worked on the case, and then just to reflect on all of the entirely undeserved harassment they have received for doing their jobs.

[Anya Cain]

I think it's funny that the people doing the harassment have essentially, like, see themselves as the real investigators, like, the true. They've deputized themselves as, like, the true arbiters of the case. And what's true and what's not, despite not being qualified and not having anything really to say and just kind of being a bunch of losers online, frankly. But, like, it. It. There's almost like a. Like a weird. I don't know, like, there's. This is a weird entitlement. Like, you know, like, no, we could do it better because then. Then if we did it, then I would figure out that it was my person of interest all along. And it's like, I don't know. I think people could be channeling some of their energies better into other pursuits who are. Who are Doing stuff like that, Like, I guess that's just kind of what it comes down to because a lot of it just seems more about self aggrandizement and entitlement than actual facts. And I, I think it's fair to criticize people who have worked on a case. I don't think it's fair to like harass people under any circumstances.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And I'd also, if you are genuinely concerned about issues in the criminal justice system, I think you'd be well advised. Instead of harassing people you don't know in other states, look to cases maybe in your own area that are not getting a lot of attention and try to do some honest boots on the ground reporting.

[Anya Cain]

No, I think the people, we should not be encouraging any of these people who lack critical thinking skills and any level of morality or ethics to do anything in any true crime case go away.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Fair enough.

[Anya Cain]

Volunteer at an animal shelter. Put your time into knitting anything else. You shouldn't be anywhere near any of this. I would agree with you in general though. I think cases like Delphi kind of take over and it's like everyone's like, well, this stuff is so crazy and all this stuff's happening here. And then you look at it, it's like, well, if you looked in your own backyard, there probably be similar issues or similar things happening, but you're just not paying attention to that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And maybe in your own background, the issues are actually egregious and not fictitious.

[Anya Cain]

Right. It's just, you know, it's, it's. Yeah, but I think the people who are doing actual harassment in cases like this do not belong in true crime. I think they should be shunned. And I think it, you know, fair enough if, if other true crime creators weren't, you know, like completely cowardly about stuff like this all the time, I think we could actually ostracize some of these people and they should be ostracized. It's, it's appalling. This is not what the, this is not what the, the true crime realm should be devolving into. But it is what is happening, unfortunately. But I think what you make, you make a good point. I don't think Delphi is this kind of a unique case necessarily. I think you have cases where a perpetrator wants to rape people and then ends up killing them. And I don't think that's super uncommon. I don't think it's a particularly twisty case when you get down to it. I think a lot of the stuff as it Played out in public was twisty. But I think as. As far as this, the basic facts of the case, it's. It's kind of just an. Just a tragic kind of disturbing occurrence that happens sometimes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I also want to mention we've gotten a lot of feedback. Oh, you talked to this person? Why didn't you talk to this person or that person? We basically reached out to probably everyone you imagine, and a lot of people didn't get back to us. A lot of people are people who, who we've talked to behind the scenes and just for one reason or another, don't feel comfortable going public. Some of them have gotten a little bit of the taste of online harassment just from their limited exposure in the case already and don't really want more of that. And I'm not going to second guess any of their decisions. And I certainly bear no ill will towards people. I don't bear ill will towards most people who haven't talked to us.

[Anya Cain]

No. Because it's like, I don't know, they don't owe us anything. I feel like I. I don't. It's what people want to do. We can't force people to talk to us. We're not going to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, as we've mentioned, some law enforcement people no longer have the option.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, it is what it is. It's. We. We reached out to people, and some people, I think, might actually get back to us at some point in the near distant future and stuff might happen and maybe not or whatever, but it's just we don't have any power to compel anyone to talk to us, nor would we want to do that if we could.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And some people are nervous to go and be interviewed by us.

[Anya Cain]

Exactly. It's not easy. And it's basically like, hey, want to step into the public arena and maybe get harassed? That's not exactly a great sell for a lot of people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I understand that because I'm often nervous talking to Anya.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I scare a lot of people, and that's okay. That's just how I am. I've always had that effect on people. I don't. I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let me talk specifically about some people who chose not to be featured. Members of the defense team, specifically. Andy Baldwin told me more than once that he was very interested, if not eager, to come on the show. He would say things like, oh, you know, you may have been critical of this or that, but if you really understood everything that was going on, you would understand exactly what I'm doing and why. And I can't wait to have the opportunity to explain all that to you on your podcast. And for whatever reason, he chose not to follow through on that. I can speculate on the reasons because I know on one program that he went on, he actually said something. I'm paraphrasing the healing one to go on media outlets that would baby him. And I think that's really telling.

[Anya Cain]

I think it's embarrassing to publicly admit that. But I think, listen, on the one hand, I mean, we're humans. It's no secret that we've been quite critical of the defense, especially as time has gone on. And I understand that feelings get hurt and criticism is not fun, and it's not fun to talk to people who criticize you. I get that. I feel like from our perspective, our criticism has at times been harsh, but it has always been sincere. And I think at some point, we've completely lost faith in the credibility of this defense team. But we are also willing to hear what they have to say. In addition to that, especially during the pre trial phase and even through trial, mostly during pre trial, though, because this is when it would matter. Our criticism was leveled with the mind of, this is not good work. Do better. This is not necessarily the best thing for your client. This is not something that's good. So it's not like we've been sitting here being like, oh, we just want to be mean to people. It's. It's genuinely like, I, I, that whatever you're trying to achieve here isn't working. And guess what? You know, for all of the media that got it completely wrong during trial, for all of what you heard about how, oh my gosh, the prosecution's case has gone. Falling apart, that's not what happened. And we were right, okay? The defense imploded. And so I'm just saying that, like, it's not like we've been sitting here being, you know, grouchy and saying, oh, they didn't do a good job, and then they totally won and got an acquittal or even got a pretty good mistrial with a, with a, you know, very evenly split jury. I think what we've been criticizing them for was borne out of what the results were of this case. So I don't feel like we've, I don't feel like we've been unreasonable. I feel, if anything, we really held back for a long time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I would say we've continued to hold back.

[Anya Cain]

Believe it or not, I think we have continued to hold back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I Think the things we could say.

[Anya Cain]

I think we've held back a lot. And so I, I think when I think what I see. And again, we don't know what's in their minds. And maybe if they talk to us, they would have something else to say that would make me say, oh, okay, well, I kind of understand that better now. But I think they built up a bizarre cult of personality around themselves and they isolated themselves with only the most obsequious of, of sycophants and built up some kind of bizarre hermit kingdom with their weird online fans. And it's like, you know, maybe hearing once in a while from people who think, well, I see what you're going for, but that's stupid. I think that could have only benefited this defense team.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think that could only have benefited the defense team. When Baldwin made the comment that I only want to go on media outlets that baby me, it certainly creates the impression that he is, for lack of a better word, uncomfortable with the idea of doing an interview with people who know a great deal about the case and who are prepared to challenge him. That's the impression it gives me. And that's not really a sign of strength or confidence in your argument. I'd also like to add that for us, the purpose of the first person interviews was basically there's all these people in the case who we haven't gotten a chance to hear from. Let's give them a chance to talk. So if, if Baldwin had decided to keep his promise to us and go on as part of the first person series, I think it would have been an interview in style and format very similar to the other ones we did. We wouldn't have been yelling at him or anything like that. We'd just be asking him to tell us his story.

[Anya Cain]

We might ask questions that would lead to some uncomfortable places. But I, I, it wouldn't be with the end of like, gotcha. It would be the end of like, let's try to all learn together and explain this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I really tried to remain open to the idea that when he told me, if you hear, if you knew what was going on, you would understand why I did this and this. And so I was interested in hearing that context. And I've yet to hear it. And I'm still mystified by a number of decisions they've made. I think they really could have benefited from listening to people who weren't thoroughly in the tank for them.

[Anya Cain]

Here's what I think they could have benefited from. Don't, don't, don't I guess, outsource your strategy to a bunch of people with emotional problems online. I think that's what could have benefited them in this case. And you know what? I think if they'd done that, they could have. I think the prosecution's case was strong enough that they were going to win, but I think they could have lost with some dignity. I think they could have lost without basically spreading around a bunch of nonsensical conspiracy theories playing around with like, you know, things that ultimately led to a significantly worse outcome for the families of these victims, where now they have to deal with this awful leak. And a bunch of emboldened conspiracy theories theorists accusing them of the murders. I think they could have gotten with, without accusing, you know, the alleged Odin is this cult of like smearing them as child killers. I think they could have avoided smearing law enforcement as like, I guess, enforcers of this cult. And part of the conspiracy. You can, you can slam law enforcement, criticize law enforcement, criticize the prosecution, do all that. You can do that without making it out to be a conspiracy theory.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think one of their fatal flaws was they, they would make really extravagant comments that they didn't fact check and then those would fall apart. And that's what I fully expect to happen with Ricky Davis. But to get back to what I was saying, I think they really needed to have people around them in the real world who were not thoroughly in the tank for them. And I keep coming back to that closing statement, the closing argument made by Brad Rosie, which concluded with a montage of medieval torture devices. And then the last image was a picture of a really big snake wrapping itself around somebody. And that is the sort of argument that maybe it sounds great to people who are thoroughly convinced of your side. That is not the sort of argument that is going to appeal to anybody in the middle. And it's not the sort of argument that is going to appeal to people who are kind of leaning against you. It is not an argument that persuades. It is a dumb argument. It's an argument that's going to be applauded by people who already believe you. And so I have to believe that if there was anybody on their side who was not a dyed in the wool conspiracy believer, that person would have told them, maybe this isn't the way to go, maybe try a more moderate closing argument. And so I tend to believe that their team around them in the real world did not perform that function for them. And that says something about them and their styles. And let's talk a Little bit about their team around them. They had an investigation investigative team. Why don't you tell us about their investigative.

[Anya Cain]

I believe when you look at their investigative team, it seemed to be assembled to us based on loyalty and enthusiasm rather than competence and experience. I mean when we found and reported on previously text from Matt Hoffman, one of their investigators who I guess technically was an office assistant but was also one of their investigators, like the man's texting with people about how the judge must be being blackmailed and that's the only reason why she could find fault with his beloved defense attorneys. I mean that what like that's, that's the level of quality we're getting here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I want to hasten to say Matt Hoffman used to be a fire chief in Carmel, Indiana. I have fireman in my family. My father's a volunteer fireman and I'm not going to go into personal details but I know after someone I'm related to passed away in the firefighting community, Matt Hoffman, then a fire chief was very, very kind to them. So I'm not saying he's a bad man. I'm saying I don't think he was really qualified to be an investigator in this role. No, I think he was probably chosen more for loyalty to Andy Baldwin than anything else. And I also look at people like Erica Morris who's also purportedly an investigator for their team and she's gone on national TV repeatedly and said many things that are flagrantly untrue. This woman is facing charges for harassment. She also is facing charges for animal cruelty. If you look it up on my case, you see these really disturbing pictures of the, of a cat in her care and there's just some awful detail. She was really.

[Anya Cain]

Where did they find these people? That's what I want to know. Where the heck did they like I, I. This is the biggest case of your career. This is an internationally known case. You would think that you would be looking for quality investigators to assist you. And I can tell you, you know, for as much as we're told about like, oh well, sometimes it's kind of the quirky, unexpected people who solve the mystery and the cozy mysteries. No, this is Life is not a novel, first of all. And second of all, the quality of the investigation they did into their premier theory of Odinism was garbage. And I know this because what we saw in the Franks memorandum was essentially all the information put together by with maybe a few add ons from Baldwin and Rosie. It was information put together by Todd Klick, Greg Ferency, And Kevin Murphy and I felt when we got to the three day hearing and it was time for them to really say, okay, here's everything we found after that. Basically what we got was the reheated leftovers of the ferency click and Murphy theory. We did not get a lot of additional stuff. So I don't know what they had been doing that whole time, but it was not, it was not effective. And frankly, that's not surprising when you're looking at the quality of the investigators here. I, I just, I, I, the whole thing baffles me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe you've been in a situation in your life where you weren't prepared for something. The equivalent of maybe you've had to do an oral book report on a book you didn't finish. And we know what that's like. You know how you're like stumbling through that and riffing wildly and just hoping something sounds good. That's what the defense was like. The defense was like a person giving an oral report on a book they haven't finished. We've all been in that situation. It's an awkward situation to be in, but I would think if that oral report I had to give was one of the most important things in my entire career and I had years to prepare for it, I would do a damn good job without oil report.

[Anya Cain]

And you know what they say, like, well, okay, well, yeah, but there were troubles and they got kicked off and whatever. Yeah, okay, fine, then continue it. You know, I mean, like they had that option, they did not take it. They thought it was fine to go ahead. I don't, I will never understand that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll never understand it. We did, we're going to mention this one thing. Anya mentioned earlier. There are things about our coverage that we regret. One thing is we did these profile episodes of Baldwin and Rosie. And when you listen to those episodes and you hear people describe Baldwin and Rosie, particularly Baldwin, they describe a very skilled attorney, a very wonderful attorney. I did not see that attorney in this court.

[Anya Cain]

I didn't even see like half of that attorney. I'm dismayed. I'm gonna tell you, I regret those episodes. I feel like, I mean, I don't know whether people were just overhyping them or it was a matter of normally they're quite good or even okay. But they just really fell short here, like well below what people would have expected. I don't know. At the end of the day, I can't know. I can't parse it. But we're never doing profile episodes again. For that reason that's never going to happen again because it's just that it just. It wasn't. It wasn't accurate. I mean, we tried. It wasn't like we were, like, looking out for people who would say nice things. It was just like, hey, you worked with them. Talk to us. And it just. It didn't work out. It's never going to happen again. So that's probably the coverage I regret the most.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I agree.

[Anya Cain]

It was done. It was done with good intentions. It was done just to kind of give you a sketch of like, hey, what are these people? Like, what have they done so far? I mean, we're interested in stuff like that, but in the future, it'll be like someone can come on and tell us themselves about their background or nothing. Because I just. The profile model did not work out in this situation, and therefore it's gonna be thrown out. Yeah, it's been frustrating because I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People sometimes say, they think, oh, you haven't been fair to the defense. Go back and listen to those episodes and you will see not only were we fair in the profile episodes, we leaned over backwards.

[Anya Cain]

We were very complimentary, and we had no reason for, at that point, to doubt that we were going to get anything less than what was described there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My fantasy, and in retrospect, considering everything that has happened, it was a very naive fantasy. My fantasy was that we would get a trial in the process where there would be extraordinary turns. Attorneys on all sides operating at the peak of their powers.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Men and women of honor trying to get to the truth as best as they can in our. In our wonderful but flawed system. And, you know, not at all what happened. But that's, you know, we have a bias toward wanting everyone to be competent professionals. That's our bias. It's it. And it's a bias. It's something where I think we were more inclined to. Hoped to believe that in the beginning of this. And it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you go back, the person we were concerned about at the beginning was Nick McClellan.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that was entirely unwarranted.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, we were like, well, he's. He's only done one murder trial. So we were looking at things from kind of a. A numbers experience sort of perspective.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you were dropped into that courtroom and didn't know which side was the experienced side, and if you didn't know which side had done hundreds of trials and hundreds of murder trials and was super experienced and were considered super lawyers and which side was considered to be the young Guy side who doesn't have the experience, you would think that the inexperienced side was the defense and that the experienced side was Nicholas McClelland.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he and his team performed like people who'd been doing it for decades.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, in fairness with prosecution side, Ms. Diener and Mr. Luttrell had. But, I mean. But certainly what you're saying, just in the general, like, who's. Yeah. I mean, it's. It was. It was surprising. And, you know, again, it's like, I just. All of this is to talk about competence, too. It doesn't really even have anything to do with the facts of the case or who's guilty or who's not guilty. It's just performance. And.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Nick McCleland really outlawyered them every step of the way. I would take the L and walk away. Take The L. Nick McClelland was in a stratosphere above these other lawyers in terms of competence and skill, and they were criticizing him behind the scenes, and he outclassed them every step of the way.

[Anya Cain]

I concur. It wasn't close. I wanted it, in a way, to be close because that, again, my bias. But, you know, it is what it is that we ultimately, we're bound to look at things as they really are, not as we want them to be. And that's what happened here, I think. Yeah. And it's disappointing that they won't speak to us, but frankly, after everything we've seen, and frankly, the lack of credibility that I've seen and the lack of being able to really rely on what they're saying to turn out to be accurate and true, I'm not surprised that we were told that they talked to us and then they didn't because we criticized them. That's not surprising to me. So it's unfortunate. I think I would like to at least kind of understand where they were coming from. It's possible that if they explained it, there would be certain areas where I. We'd say, okay, well, maybe we can kind of understand that. But I think there's a lot of things that I'll never understand about this, because there's really no good explanation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If they had something that would explain everything and make them come out smelling like a rose, you would think they would want to share it with people who were writing a book on the case.

[Anya Cain]

You would.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What else?

[Anya Cain]

I think for me, at the end of the day, when I. We talked. I mean, first person's all about these kind of people with the firsthand experiences we're talking to Them. We're getting their insights. And one thing that just felt like huge absence in that was the girls at the center of this story. Obviously, Abigail and Liberty. I think having talked with all these people who actually investigated the case and prosecuted the case and looked into this case for years, I think one of my big takeaways, I'm going to steal from prosecutor McClelland, which is what's something he closed with, I thought very effectively. I mean, the girls are the heroes of this story. We can't talk to them. They've been taken from us. But they are the heroes, and they would have gone on to do great things. And I believe that they're not here anymore because of a despicable man who put his own sexual fantasies and selfishness above the lives of his fellow human beings. You know, I don't. I think that is what happened. I think he. He. I think Richard Allen tormented these girls and put them through absolute hell before they died in a brutal, horrible fashion. I mean, I've seen those photos. I can't unsee what I saw. It's horrible. But I think at the end of the day, through their own bravery and through their commitment to being there for one another and through whatever instincts were telling them to do this, I think they were able to, in Liberty's case, take video of him and in Abigail's case, conceal the device on which that video existed. And they were able to show the world what Richard Allen is and what he really is. And I think they deserve to be remembered that way. They deserve to be remembered as heroes. They would have gone on, in my opinion, to do wonderful things. I think they were both smart, capable, and wonderful young people. They won't get to do that. They won't get to have families of their own. They won't get to grow up and have careers, fall in love, do everything everyone should have the right to do in their lives. They won't get to do that. But. And they won't even get to have privacy in their death. Because. Because. Not only. Because this case, unfortunately, had a defense team that, instead of protecting discovery materials, as they were supposed to, as they were ordered to by court, allowed for some of those materials to leak out onto the Internet. And because there are certain people within the true crime space with no respect for boundaries, no respect for other people's privacy, no respect for the privacy of murdered children who feel like their own sick, morbid curiosity is more important than anything else in the universe because of that, that stuff will continue to circulate forever. It's disgusting, but it's just true. They don't get that privacy and death. But I think we can honor them by at the very least acknowledging and remembering and celebrating them for what they did do in their short lives and what they brought to this world, what they brought to their community, what they brought to their families and what they were able to accomplish in their last moments. Despite, I'm sure, the immense fear and horror they must have felt, they were able to help solve this crime. And without, without that video, I think Richard Allen would still be puttering around in that cvs, you know, with a very dark secret and a very sick mind. So I think they deserve an incredible amount of credit. So I just wanted to call out that even though we weren't, obviously they're gone, but they, they, they deserve, they deserve all the, all the credit in the world, I guess. Was there anything else you wanted to say? Yeah, I don't think there is anything else to say. Well, thank you all very much for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we go, we just wanted to say another few words about Via. This is really a wonderful product. I think it's really helped both of us get a lot better rest.

[Anya Cain]

Via is pretty much, I guess you'd say, the only lifestyle hemp brand out there. So what does that mean? It means that they're all about crafting different products to elicit different moods. Kevin and I really like their non THC CBD products. Specifically Zen really helps me fall asleep some. Zen can really just Kind of help me get more into that state where I can relax and, and fall asleep pretty easily. And. And they're just. They've been such a wonderful support to us. They're a longtime sponsor. We really love working with them, and they really make the show possible. I'm gonna say this like, you may not realize this, but when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and. And it kind of makes us impossible for us to do the show. So if you or one of your loved ones is interested in trying some of this stuff, you're gonna get a great deal. It's very high, high quality, high value.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, if I wanted to get this discount you speak of, what do I do?

[Anya Cain]

Okay, if you're 21 and older, head to viahemp.com and use the code msheet to receive 15% off. And if you're new to Via, get a free gift of your choice. That's V I I a hemp.com and use code msheet at checkout. Spell the code M S H E E T. And after you purchase, they're going to ask you, hey, where'd you hear about us? Say the murder sheet. Because then it lets them know that our ads are effective and it really helps us out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can we talk a little bit before we go about Quints, a great new sponsor for us? I think in one of the ads that we've already done for them, we talked about the compliments I'm getting on my jacket. I know you're a very modest woman, but can we talk about the compliments you're getting on the quince products you wear?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do, like, European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very, like, you know, like, I I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's. Something's too scratchy, like, it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like, very delicate and soft. And make they're wearing them is lovely because they're super Comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who, like, wears the same thing all the time. So this was a bit of a. A gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you. Great products, incredible prices.

[Anya Cain]

Quincy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Com.

[Anya Cain]

There you go. So you can go to quince.com/m sheet and right now they're offering 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. So it's quince.com/m sheet, that's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com M.

[Kevin Greenlee]

S H E-E-T before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you support our sponsors, you're supporting us, and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Acorns is a terrific investing app. It's the perfect thing for somebody who wants to get started with their personal finance journey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That can seem daunting.

[Anya Cain]

It. It is daunting. I. I'm so not financially minded. For me, it's always really hard to get started with something like this where you're like, what am I doing? But Acorns sort of takes the guesswork out of that. It gets you started and it will essentially help you take control of your financial future. You can get set up pretty quickly and it allows you to start automatically. Saving and investing that money can help you, your kids, if you have a family, your retirement. And you don't need to be rich, you don't need to be an expert to do this. It's very simple. And you can start with only $5 or whatever change you have. It's not like you need to put in some massive payment. So it is a It's it's a great fit for people who are starting out, but they want to take the next step and improve themselves financially and make their money work for them more. So if you're Interested, head to acorns.commsheet or download the Acorns app to start saving and investing for your future today. Paid non client endorsement compensation provides incentive to positively promote Acorns Tier 1 compensation provided investing involved risk. Acorns Advisors LLC and SEC registered investment advisor. View important [e-mail] sheet.