The Delphi Murders: Kathy Allen's Interview with Police and More

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet

Episode: The Delphi Murders: Kathy Allen's Interview with Police and More
Date: November 12, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (A) & Kevin Greenlee (B)
Main Topic: Newly released exhibits in the Richard Allen (Delphi Murders) case, including Kathy Allen’s interview with police

---

Overview

This episode explores critical documents newly released as part of Richard Allen's appeal in the Delphi murders case. The hosts, Áine and Kevin, delve deep into the trial exhibits, focusing primarily on the police interview with Kathy Allen, Richard Allen’s wife. They analyze the defense’s discredited “Odinism” theory, discuss legal missteps and investigative weaknesses, and provide a contextual reading and commentary on Kathy’s lengthy interview.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Context and Recent Developments

• The released exhibits are connected to Richard Allen's pending appeal and relate to the pre-trial “Frank's Memorandum” filed by his defense, which posited that the Delphi killings were part of a white supremacist ritual ("Odinism theory").
• The hosts clarify that most of the material in these filings has been debunked or discredited.

Quote:

“My reaction was it's shocking how weak this theory was.”
— Kevin, 08:57

2. Discredited Odinism Theory

• Defense attorneys accused several local men of ritualistic murder without evidence; alibis and timelines exonerate those accused.
• The investigation was fueled by internet speculation and tips from unreliable sources, including a YouTuber who previously made threats against the memorial park.
• "Expert" affidavits, such as one from Todd Klick, are shown to be based on hearsay, misinformation, and a misunderstanding of police procedures.
• The defense attempted to find visual and mythological connections between Norse paganism and the crime scene, all deemed spurious by the hosts.

Quote:

“This is the caliber of the investigation they were doing. They were getting tips from YouTubers in other countries who are best known for making violent threats.”
— Kevin, 09:25

Memorable Moment:
The hosts compare the defense’s efforts to the “Keystone Cops,” emphasizing the lack of professionalism.

3. Transition to Kathy Allen’s Interview

• The episode shifts into an almost line-by-line reading and analysis of Kathy Allen’s police interview, with commentary interspersed.

---

Kathy Allen’s Police Interview: Key Takeaways

Structure

Áine reads Kathy’s words; Kevin reads the police/investigators’ questions. Periodic breaks for analysis.

a. Richard Allen’s Routine & Day of the Murders

• Kathy confirms that it was normal for Richard to walk the trails alone on his days off (he typically parked at the old CPS building, the same location where a car of interest was spotted on the day of the murders).
  • Timestamps: 35:00–40:50

Quote:

“It was either that or you had to park down the road, which you weren't supposed to do.”
— Kathy Allen, read by Áine, 41:30

b. Richard’s Alibi and Behavior

• Kathy provides ambiguous and sometimes contradictory recollections about her and her husband's routine, vehicle use, and activities that day.
• She admits Richard told her he encountered "three weird girls" on the trails – the same girls whose testimony became crucial at trial.
  • Timestamps: 45:27–46:26

Quote:

"He did say he went for a walk out there and that he ran into these three girls that were weird."
— Kathy Allen, 45:27

• When questioned about why Richard described the girls as "weird," Kathy has no details, and Áine and Kevin note the defensiveness and suspect psychological projection.

c. Response to the Girls' Disappearance

• Kathy wanted to join the search for the missing girls, but Richard warned her against it, saying, "That's too many people out there. Just let them do their job… If they find stuff, you know, laying around, they could blame you and all that shit."
  • Timestamps: 48:46–49:26

Quote:

"If they find stuff… they could blame you and all that shit."
— Richard (recounted by Kathy), 48:46

• Hosts point out this is the sort of excuse a guilty party might make.

d. Guns, Cartridges, and Trail Habits

• On guns: Kathy admits Allen had guns, likely including a 9mm, and generally kept a round in the chamber. This matches the ballistics finding of an unspent cartridge at the crime scene matching Allen's gun.
  • Timestamps: 55:59–59:44

Quote:

"I think there's one in the chamber at all times."
— Kathy Allen, 97:11

• When asked, Kathy denies Allen typically brought a gun to the trails or generally shot recreationally in the area, undermining the possibility of innocent explanation for the cartridge.

e. Mental Health, Isolation, and Substance Abuse

• Kathy confirms Allen's long-term depression, unstable employment, lack of close friends, and frequent drinking – noting that alcohol worsened his “mouthy” (emotionally abusive) behavior and may have triggered an incident where he put a gun in his mouth, for which he was committed for six months.
  • Timestamps: 103:18–104:57

Quote:

"He did try to kill himself..."
— Kathy Allen, 103:20

• She repeatedly downplays or laughs off these disturbing events.

f. Marital Dynamics and Denial

• Kathy and Richard seem emotionally distant but intertwined by habit and history. She insists they have a “good” relationship, but admits to a lack of friends and social isolation.
• When shown the “Bridge Guy” photo, Kathy insists it’s not her husband, reasoning "because he would never do anything like that," rather than citing physical or visual differences.
  • Timestamps: 91:33–95:52

Quote:

"Because he would never do anything like that."
— Kathy Allen, 91:37

• The hosts repeatedly note Kathy appears performatively supportive, reflexively defensive, and possibly in deep denial or self-delusion about Richard’s actions.

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On the evidence provided by Kathy Allen:

  “In this interview, it very much feels to me like she is putting the noose around his neck and tying it, even though she doesn't seem to be aware of the significance of some of these admissions.”
  — Kevin, 43:32

• On Kathy’s attitude about Allen’s possible involvement:

  “Her level of defensiveness and giggling and bizarre behavior and bizarre statements, frankly, throughout this interview makes me think that we're asking the wrong question… I think on some level she knew.”
  — Áine, 120:54

• On Richard Allen’s conduct:

  “The picture she paints of her husband is the picture of the man who killed those girls.”
  — Kevin, 120:17

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Opening/context around Odinism theory: 03:38–16:36
• Breakdown of defense’s investigative failures: 08:29–13:45
• Explanation of Odin myth and visual evidence: 16:39–24:11
• Reading and commentary on Kathy Allen’s police interview: 29:03–120:01
  • Richard’s routine/car/parking/behavior: 35:00–43:32
  • Allen’s statements about the three girls: 45:27–47:28
  • Kathy’s account of the post-disappearance search refusal: 48:46–49:26
  • Discussion of firearms, cartridges, and “bridge guy” clothing: 55:59–95:52
  • Richard’s mental health, drinking, and suicide attempt: 103:18–104:57
• Discussion/analysis of Kathy's credibility and insight into dynamics: especially dense from 120:01–127:12

---

Analysis and Final Thoughts

• Hosts’ conclusion:
  Kathy Allen’s statement provides indirect but deeply incriminating evidence against Richard Allen. With no known friends, a history of mental illness, and erratic and violent behavior exacerbated by alcohol, Allen fits the profile of the killer. The hosts suggest Kathy’s mixture of defensiveness, selective memory, and oddly flat affect reflect either willful denial or complicity via inaction.
• On Kathy Allen as a figure:
  Where the hosts previously saw her as a second victim, this interview moved their opinion toward seeing her as someone who at least subconsciously knew more than she admitted—her behavior signaling denial or possible unwillingness to confront the truth.
• Case impact:
  The cumulative, "particulate" nature of the evidence—routine, parking location, admission of presence, matching clothing, failed alibis, and psychological profile—solidifies the case against Richard Allen.

---

Notable Segment Timestamps (by topic)

• Odinism Theory Debunked: 05:41–18:36
• Key Admissions in Kathy Allen Interview: 45:27, 97:11, 103:20, 91:37
• The hosts' shift in perception of Kathy Allen: 120:54–124:52

---

Tone and Language

The hosts maintain a journalistically skeptical, at times sardonic tone. Áine’s responses often show deep frustration with the handling of both the defense’s evidentiary blind alleys and with Kathy’s apparent denial. Kevin injects legal and factual clarity, sometimes with dark humor ("putting the noose around his neck"). Both voices blend compassion for the true victims and a critical eye towards the Allen family dynamic.

---

In sum:
This episode is a methodical and emotionally charged breakdown of the latest Delphi case documents. The highlight is the real-time, gritty, and revealing sifting through Kathy Allen’s account, exposing layers of denial, dysfunction, and ultimately, the banality of evil that enabled one of the most haunting child murder cases in recent memory.

Transcript

[A]

It's full fledged fall out there. It's sweater season and I'm thrilled about it because that means we went on a new Quint's shopping spree.

[B]

We love our sponsor Quints. It's our go to for quality pieces. They offer $50 Mongolian cashmere sweaters for everyday style, Italian wool coats with designer cuts, fashionable denim, silk tops and skirts.

[A]

To upgrade your closet. The the perfect ingredients for a wardrobe that's affordable, easy to maintain and always in style. Just recently I got Kevin two lovely looking new quince sweaters. One is a black Australian merino wool cable crew neck sweater. The other is a true navy Mongolian cashmere crew neck sweater. I think he looks rather handsome in them and I think he's adorable.

[B]

Plus they're super comfortable and easy to wear. I'm not one for expanding my style all that often, but but Quince makes it so easy by offering prices 50% less than other brands. They cut out the middleman and make it easy for you to spruce up your style this holiday season. Check them out now.

[A]

Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince, perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.com msheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C e.com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinns.com msheet we love cornbread Hemp's CBD Gummies We've had a busy year in terms of writing and promoting our crime nonfiction book and continuing to produce the podcast. At the same time. Cornbread Hemp Gummies have helped us with sleep, stress, aches and more.

[B]

Cornbread Hemp CBD Gummies help us manage eggs everything. We've been enjoying their berry CBD gummies which taste so good and their sleep CBD gummies as well as their CBD lotion. What we love about Cornbread Hemp is that these products work with your body, not against it. We've been really impressed by the results.

[A]

As a tense and pretty anxious person, Cornbread Hemp CBD Gummies help me feel less stress. These gummies are made with full spectrum CBD for maximum potency plus their flour only extraction means you're not eating sticks, stems or leaves. It's all organic, vegan and gluten free and I love it.

[B]

Cornbread Hemp is all about quality products. They're looking to help improve your life through the highest quality CBD plus they're based in our neighboring state of Kentucky which has a hemp tradition going back 250 years. Cornbread products are all third party lab tested and are USDA organic. So what you're getting is safe and pure cbd. And as a reminder, CBD is non intoxicating right now.

[A]

Murder Sheet listeners can save 30% on their first order. Just head to cornbreadhemp.com msheet and use code MSHEET at checkout. That's cornbreadhemp.commsheet and use code msheet did you know that parents rank financial literacy as the number one most difficult life skill to teach? Meet Greenlight, the debit card and money app for families. With Greenlight, you can send money to kids quickly, set up chores automate allowance and keep an eye on your kids spending with real time notifications. Kids learn to earn, save and spend wisely and parents can rest easy knowing their kids are learning about money. With guardrails in place. Try Greenlight Risk free [e-mail] Wondery hi.

[B]

I'm Kevin and on this episode of the Murder Sheet, Ani and I are going to be discussing some exhibits that were just made public in Richard Allen's case, including an interview with a convicted murderer's wife in which she makes some startling admissions.

[A]

Content Warning this episode of the Murder Sheet includes discussion of murder, including the murder of two children. So as Kevin indicated in our little mini opening, we are going to be talking about the exhibits that were recently released in the Delphi murders case. These exhibits are all associated with the pending appeal of convicted murderer Richard Allen, who of course is the man who brutally murdered 14 year old Libby German and 13 year old Abby Williams on February 13, 2017. We have covered this case recently really extensively. We have written a book on the case called Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders and the Dark side of the American Heartland. And that's a book that actually it's kind of gratifying because you know, you write a book and you dig into all of this and then when exhibits come out, you see it and you can actually see some of the things that you were reporting on. So the book is available for sale wherever and if you're interested in this case, we would recommend it because we feel it really gets into the heart of this investigation and a lot of behind the scenes details that were never publicly put out there before.

[B]

And before we get into the meat of the episode, I just want to add some context to what Anya said These exhibits are indeed being made public as part of Richard Allen's appeal. But these were exhibits that were originally filed by his trial counsel during the pre trial process. And they were actually filed as exhibits in their so called Frank's Memorandum. This was a lengthy document in which they posited a bizarre theory unsupported by evidence, namely that the two girls had been killed as part of a ritual conducted by white supremacists.

[A]

Yes. And they actually specifically named several individuals accusing them of the murder of two children. And when those claims were heavily scrutinized by us, by others, by the court, a lot of what they said completely fell apart. That's a trend in this case. Typically in cases that we've covered, usually you can take what attorneys say to the bank to a, to a degree, you know, both sides are going to be trying to mold things to suit their case. But in this case we were really surprised a lot of the times because it would just be like, there's nothing here.

[B]

With all that said, should we get to it?

[A]

Let's do it. My name is Anya Cain, I'm a journalist.

[B]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[A]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[A]

The Delphi Murders, Kathy Allen's interview with police and more.

[B]

It. So I think the most interesting thing in these documents by far is the interview included with Kathy Allen. Before we get to that, I think there's a few other things we wanted to touch upon. As we mentioned, these exhibits were prepared by the trial council, Andrew Baldwin and Brad Rosie to be filed with their document positing their so called Odinism theory. And most of what's included in there is stuff that's been subsequently discredited. Some of it is self discrediting, frankly, because they name as one of their main killers a man named Brad Holder. I want to make perfectly clear Mr. Holder had nothing to do with this murder. And they mentioned in some of these documents, included in these filings, in these exhibits that Mr. Holder had a great alibi. He was working until 2:45 on a day when the girls were kidnapped around 2:13. No way he could have done these crimes.

[A]

And not in Delphi, mind you, not.

[B]

In the city, in another community. So they had that information, it was included in these exhibits and that did not stop them from smearing his name. And so reading the many hundreds of pages in this new release of exhibits that dealt with the Odinism theory in particular. My reaction was it's shocking how weak this theory was.

[A]

Absolutely. I mean, as you said, it's self denying. This is a situation where, as you mentioned, there's this, there's this guy, you know, Holder, they have him going to the gym immediately after work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And they have that confirmed. They say. The Federal Bureau of Investigation looked into that. They have him being picked up on camera, you know, like his car at work. So like there's not, there's no question here. I mean like it just.

[B]

There's no question. There's a little bit of a, a peek into the kitchen, so to speak. There's an affidavit from one of the defense key investig, a gentleman named Matt Hoffman, where he reports that he got a hot tip that Holder was the killer from a YouTuber named Joe Lewis, who's based out of Australia. And of course Mr. Lewis is the gentleman who at one point threatened to blow up the Abbey and Libby Park. So this is the caliber of the investigation they were doing. They were Getting tips from YouTubers in other countries who are best known for making violent threats.

[A]

The dream team they had at one point, they're like little legal intern Max Baker making comments about how, you know, guards weren't, you know, overly, I guess, accommodating to Allen's, quote, grieving wife. His grieving wife. There are people who actually experienced grief in this case, and I think those may be the families of the two little girls that this guy murdered. So like, pardon me if I'm not really that sympathetic to that line of argument.

[B]

I think Max, in his portion of these files included an image of Richard Allen with eyes black and some blood on his forehead. And I think the implication is, oh.

[A]

Golly, he's being abused in prison.

[B]

Yeah, he's really being treated badly in prison. But of course, if you look at the actual facts, Richard Allen was a man who was like pounding his head against the wall. So I feel pretty confident in saying that the injuries you saw in that photograph were injuries that Mr. Allen chose to inflict on himself. I think you had a few things you wanted to say about this Odinism stuff before we got.

[A]

Yeah, I'll just say for me, looking at any of the depositions between like, Hoffman, Baker, any of these people. I have absolutely no, no faith in any of them. I have no faith in any, the credibility of any of these people. I feel like everyone in my view who is working on the defense team for Richard Allen is, is suspect in my view. And that's my personal opinion. I. I don't trust anything these people have to say. So. So that's something. One thing that stood out to me was we get an affidavit from Todd Klick. I forget if this had been out before. We were definitely. We definitely reported on, I think, the broad outlines of most of this. It's not really new, but it's just shocking to read this man's affidavit. As a reminder, Todd Click was the assistant police chief in Rushville, Indiana, in Rush County, a place very far away from Delphi, who sort of inserted himself into the case through his interactions with two Federal Bureau of Investigation terrorism task force team members, Greg Ferency and Kevin Murphy. Greg Ferency was an officer based out of, I believe, Terre Haute, and Murphy was an Indiana State Police trooper. And so they all really ran with this Odinism theory. And together they formed the Odinism theory, kind of mostly as it was presented by the defense like that. The defense basically cribbed most of what they had from what these guys did with some subtle differences. But when I read Todd Klick's thing, first of all, it became very clear to us in our reporting, and this is in the book that KLI was basing most of his opinions in this case, his very strong opinions that the Odinists were involved in from. Not necessarily exclusively from information he was getting himself, but from information that Ferency and Murphy were passing on to him. So, like secondhand, which is less than ideal. And we all. We often hear from kind of some of the conspiracy theorists in this case, that there was this blinders on mentality where they just wanted Richard Allen and they were just going to get him, and it's the Keystone Cops. And if you want to look at Keystone Cops, if you want to look at a blinder's mentality, I would suggest reading Todd Klick's affidavit, the amount of information that he just gets purely wrong. I mean, he talks about the behavioral analysis unit of the FBI being involved in this case. It wasn't.

[B]

It wasn't.

[A]

It just wasn't. They didn't. They didn't do anything. So, again, like, he doesn't know that because he's just getting information from other people secondhand. It's a game of telephone. And I'm not even blaming him for not knowing everything, but maybe don't put an affidavit down unless you're absolutely sure what you're talking about, which he obviously wasn't.

[B]

One thing that struck me about his affidavit, of course, this is a very complicated case. This murder case involved officers from different jurisdictions, like the Carroll County Sheriff's Department, Indiana State Police, and so on. And so they created what was called unified command, where people from each agency were working together to run and be in charge of the investigation. And Mr. Klick says in his affidavit he found it very, very frustrating that before they took. Before he and his colleagues took any investigative steps on this case, they had to give the approval of unified command. That's not only. That's how police work is done. That's how any work is done. There's always a chain of command, and you have to trust the people above you who have more information, may be aware of more things than you are.

[A]

Let me. Let me just actually give you. Because I don't think Kevin's exaggerating. I'm gonna. I'm gonna read the quote here. Quote. I also recall being frustrated that we as police officers were not allowed to take any material investigative actions without first reaching up the chain of command and getting the permission of the unified command, end quote. Are you kidding me? That's like me complaining that my work as a journalist has to be edited by an editor and go up the chain of command to be approved. If it's a sensitive story, of course, anyone complaining about that is suspect. Oh, I don't want people to check my work and make sure I'm not messing stuff up. I mean, like. Like, the. The aversion to oversight is really telling there. And. And just. Just, again, like, this is this. This is how. This is how things like wrongful convictions actually happen. This is how. This is how things like wrongful convictions happen. You have people who get very emotionally invested in one theory and basically read everything into that theory and react with outright hostility to anyone who basically throws cold water on their, you know, little machinations. So Todd Klick, as we've reported on before, is still facing official misconduct, forgery, and the falsification of child abuse or neglect. Information of records case in Ripley county, where he was previously working for Child Protective Services and now stands accused of forging records in order to, you know, I basically. I seemingly lighten his workload, so very disturbing charges out of that situation. His trial is currently scheduled for January 20th. Keeps getting moved back. So other things that, you know, kind of. I just like most of this stuff, again, we've already talked about, so I don't want to be repetitive. I don't. I want to, like, respect our time as well as Our audience's time. I'll kind of go through a couple things that just stuck out to me as like, oh, okay, this is a different way of thinking about it or whatever.

[B]

And then we'll go to the new stuff.

[A]

You know, we see more images of Odin hanging upside down in a tree. So let's talk about Odin. Odin is a God. He's a deity in Norse pagan mythology. And according to legend, he gouged out an eye and hung himself upside down in the world tree in order to gain secret knowledge of like language and runes. That's my understanding of this myth, of this legend. You know, it's some people's religious beliefs, right? So that's, that's what that is. So he's not. No one hung him upside down. He did that to himself. It's not, it's violent in that he took out one of his own eyes, but it's all self inflicted. It's not like anyone did something to him, you know, and people often say, well, you know, because, I mean, there was photo leaks in this. Oh, you know, Abby Williams, one of the victims, she's in the same pose. She's not hanging upside down on a tree. I don't know what people are talking about. It's like, no, the bodies look like they're just lying on the ground. It's just stupid. Brad Holder did a painting of Odin in 2018. He's a Norse pagan. That's his religion. It sort of reminds me when people say, oh, it looks like, you know, it's duplicating the crime scene. It reminds me of if you had a body where the arms were kind of outstretched and then someone was a Christian and painted Christ on the cross. You could be, you could say the same exact stuff. Whereas, oh, you know, like that, that looks similar. It, it doesn't really like, it's, it's kind of a different thing. But okay, they cite this professor of, you know, expertise in Norse, Daniel Bray, about sacrificial ideology and old Norse religion. They have his paper in here. Then that raised a really big question for me. If Daniel Bray's research on ancient Norse culture. Ancient Norse, not, not how Norse is interpreted today in modern society, but ancient Norse culture and the old Norse religion. If that was so interesting and important, why not call Bray to the stand in order to talk about this and talk about how. Why Odinism is a good theory because of his expertise in Norse.

[B]

We are busy, busy, busy. Between producing multiple episodes of the murder sheet each week and doing talks and signings for our new book. We strive to make time for chores and house cleaning every single day. Gotta maintain those habits, but sometimes it just adds to our sense of being overwhelmed.

[A]

That's why our terrific new sponsor, Homaglo is such a game changer. This top rated home service platform will meet you where you are to help you get your space clean and tidy. You can book cleaners on your schedule. You'll be checking tasks off your list and boosting your own peace of mind. With Homaglo, you can opt for a quick clean or book something well in advance. If you're looking for even more affordable options, you can go for their Forever Clean membership. You'll save $30 an hour on all future cleanings.

[B]

The process is so simple. You go on their website. You pick a date, time and duration of service. Then you match with a cleaner. All of their cleaners go through a certification process so you know you're getting the best.

[A]

We're all working hard. Whether you've got a job you're passionate about, mysteries you need to solve, kids that need care and support, or side hustles that need tending. But you also need to take care of yourself. Opt for Homaglo. Whether you need long term cleaning support or just a touch up here and there, it's going to save you time and give you peace of mind and a clean house you'll be so happy with. Take home cleaning off your plate this fall by using homaglo. Head to homaglow.com murdersheet get your first three hours of cleaning for only $19. That's h o m e a g l o w.com murdersheet studying true crime tells us that sometimes the worst can happen. There's a real danger out there and you never know when it can strike within your own home.

[B]

The big problem with traditional home security systems is that they react after an intruder is already breaking in or inside after your safety in space has already been violated. That's why we trust SimpliSafe to protect our home. And you can too. Murder Sheet listeners are going to get a great deal during Simplisafe's biggest sale of the year, getting 60% off when you go to SimpliSafe.com msheet our SimpliSafe.

[A]

Home security system is proactive. If our system detects potential criminals outside our residence, live agents are on it. They will confront potential criminals before they even break in to let them know someone's watching. Monitoring agents take care of everything for you. Confronting the intruders with news that Police are on the way, flashing spotlights and sounding loud sirens.

[B]

We've used SimpliSafe for years. As true crime podcasters, we know all too well how important and life saving a home security system can be. We want to feel protected all the time because we know all the scary stories and we trust Simplisafe to prevent those kinds of things from happening to us.

[A]

Don't miss out on SimpliSafe's biggest sale of the year. 60% off. Right now, our listeners can save 60% off on the SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe. Why not call if you can't get Bray? He's busy. Why not call someone else with a similar expertise? Why did we only get Dr. Don Perlmutter, who her primary claim to fame was going on Court TV and immediately saying this must be a pagan ritual because, you know, that's her expertise based on knowing nothing? Like, that's who we got. Like, instead of anyone with any sort of credibility.

[B]

It's a ridiculously weak theory. What else would you want to hit on it?

[A]

I want to hit on the picture of. So there's a bizarre picture that Brad Holder posted on his Facebook. This is. This became a big point of contention for the defense. It depicts two people, two white people lying on the ground. One of them up front is definitely a woman. The other one, I can't really tell. And they're being kind of covered by like a small tree, almost like a tree fell on them. And this has always been cited as like, oh, it's so similar to the, to the crime scene because branches were on the girls. And just the more I look at this, it's like it looks like they got hit by a small tree. It looks like a joke picture where, like, people are like, oh, look, we got flattened by a tree. But they weren't really. They just put themselves under the tree. It's just like so much of this case and so much of this is just the defense loudly asserting something wrong and clearly, observably wrong. And then everyone just going along with it because that's what they said. You know, it doesn't matter what the actual facts are. And this is the way the media has frankly covered this case. Right? Well, they said it so, you know.

[B]

Therefore, must be true.

[A]

Must be true. So it's just stupid. I mean, I have a picture of myself pretending to like, karate chop a Tree that fell down in our yard. That doesn't, you know, I mean, like, if someone gets, like, you know, in a fight, that doesn't mean I was involved in that. Not that I'm trying to get ahead of anything, but. So let's see, then there's just stuff from, like, Ryan Boucher and Julie Melvin, who are two people, I guess, who had way too much. Julie Melvin's in our book. You know, she. She's an Internet crank, and, you know, she's tipping in Brad Holder. Ryan Braucher is. Is tipping in Brad Holder because he spent six years researching. Who cares what some Internet person thinks? Like, Internet sleuths have so little information, and they just get obsessed with these, like, one rabbit hole and won't come out of it. And so, like, what's scary is the fact that the defense is, like, citing them of, like, hey, these random people on the Internet think we're right. Who cares?

[B]

And again, the fact is Brad Holder has a very, very solid alibi. He was not involved in these crimes. The alibi is included in these exhibits.

[A]

I do also want to talk about. There are a couple of interviews with. With troopers, including one trooper who's anonymous, right? Too top secret to even be in here. And there's just here, here's a quote, quote, and this is from this. This trooper that the defense is interviewing, quote, it would have been several months after that. That was pre Covid. So we were down at the offices quite a bit, and I heard that there was possibly a Viking symbol or Viking rune left on a tree. Some research on those regarding an earlier event that we had gathered some intelligence on. So I had some working knowledge of those. So I reached out. Roland, I happen to know, was on the task force that was investigating. So I reached out to him and asked him about that. That was my first involvement, end quote. So what the. Roland refers to Roland Purdy, who was a officer with state police who worked on this case. And listen, it seems pretty clear that throughout Indiana state police, there was this sort of like, oh, there's a rune on the tree or there's a symbol, a Viking symbol. And that's great. That's fine. It's fine that they thought that, and it's good that they looked into that. But what's more important than doing some kind of, like, let's look at the clouds and see a bunny rabbit interpretation of what the symbol is, is how the symbol got there. Because how the symbol got there will tell you if it even is a symbol, right? If. If blood hits the Wall. Let's take a different situation. If blood hits the wall and it just turns out it was from, you know, you know, just the, the knife being jerked around wildly then, then you know, it's. It, it's not actually a symbol or if versus someone painting something in blood on a wall at a crime scene, one is just an accidental incidental thing where that's just where the blood's going and the other one is a killer or a victim specifically writing something out. Right. And so in this case, it matters how more so than what it is. You have to look at the how before you can look at the what. And what seems like pretty evident from the get go is that crime scene technicians, crime scene investigators who worked on this case felt like it was a transfer stain specifically from the victim's hand because her hands were covered. Libby's hands were covered in blood as she was trying to staunch the bleeding. And she steadied herself on the tree momentarily. It's a heartbreaking image. And there's basically the pa. The idea that this was painted on or done purposely in some respect isn't supported by the way it looks. First of all, Pat Cicero, Major Pat Cicero, who was another crime scene investigator who testified in this case, noted that if it had been painted on, there would have been dripping everywhere and you would have been going back and forth between the blood source, Libby's body and the tree in a way that would first of all leave trails of drippings and is very difficult to do and is very time consuming and it would have taken a lot of long time. And that it doesn't show up that well when you're trying to paint it. But the actual just being her handprint from her bloody hands as she's trying to staunch the bleeding and support herself, makes perfect sense. And it fits her hand, fits her hand shape. So this guy's, this trooper who's unnamed is obviously just operating from bad information. And again, like citing him as some kind of expert because he heard a rumor is not strength from the part of the defense. And he says, quote, it appears to have, it appears to have been done accurately to either make an F or that fehoo rune. It doesn't appear particularly random, like someone's wiped something off, end quote. Again, that's just his interpretation. He's not a crime scene expert. And frankly, if the defense really felt this, that it was intentional, they had every opportunity in the world, absolutely. To call their own blood crime scene expert, bring them in and have them go back against Cicero's testimony. And say, no, we know it was painted on, and here's why we know here. Let's interpret this crime scene differently. They didn't do that. The reason they didn't do that is because no one was willing to lie for them.

[B]

So it's an empty theory, not really worthy of consideration. Was there anything else you wanted to talk about before we get to Kathy Allen?

[A]

It sounds like this guy who I'm talking about right now, his primary understanding of runes comes from literal Google searches. So again, like, when people start citing this appeal to authority of, like, well, this trooper disagrees with everyone. It's like, I don't care because he doesn't have the facts. And they're grasping at straws by calling people like this who are only tangentially aware of what's even going on. It's like, if you brought me in to be an expert on, like, I don't know, the Fatimid Caliphate, I might know a couple of things because I took one class on it in college. But you're going to get a lot wrong from me.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And most of what I would know would be through hastily Googling something before arriving. So let's go to. Let's go to Kathy Allen's interview.

[B]

Let's go to Kathy Allen's interview. We're going to read most of it.

[A]

Yeah, I think so.

[B]

We're going to leave some stuff out for different reasons. And I think periodically one of both of us will just say.

[A]

Raise our hand and say, I want to say something.

[B]

Yes. When we get to things we think are important. But she's such an important figure in this case, and this is one of the first times we've heard from her directly outside of an artificial situation such as a documentary.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It appears from context clues that this interview took place relatively early on. And it seems to have taken place at her place of employment, which was some sort of vet service.

[A]

Vet service. And I will say, our understanding is that when Richard Allen was initially being interviewed by now police, Delphi Police Chief Steve Mullen and now Carroll County Sheriff Tony Leggett, that they also sent out other investigators to speak with other members of his family, including Kathy Allen. So I. I believe, and I could be wrong because there's no context in the document, I believe that this may be possibly that interview, or at least something that, as you said, occurred early on. I do want to make one thing clear. Kathy Allen attended pretty much most days at trial. She was very supportive of her husband. She's been his supporter since she appeared on you know, in media outlets recently, saying that she thought he was innocent and really downplaying any sort of negative traits he might have and talking about how he's the perfect husband and father. So that's the context of this. And now she may have changed her mind since. I don't know. But that. This is that, like, that's where she is now.

[B]

Yeah. And the page which would specify where. When and where this interview took place has been left out. And I'm guessing one reason for that may be because it specified the place where she worked.

[A]

Yeah. Which, you know, Exactly. I don't believe she. People ask us often, is she still in Delphi? I don't think she is. So.

[B]

So I'm going to read the questions.

[A]

From the investigator, investigators.

[B]

I think there were two.

[A]

Two. Okay. I don't know.

[B]

And then Anya is going to read the. The answers from Kath. It kind of picks up midstream. And from context, it sounds like they are asking her about the day the girls went missing, which was February 13, 2017.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm going to begin to read from this document. Are you ready, Anya?

[A]

Yes. Okay. Okay.

[B]

You remember that day at all? What were you doing? What was going on that day?

[A]

I think I was working that day. I mean, what day of the week was it?

[B]

Monday.

[A]

Yeah, I would have been working, and.

[B]

Then Valentine's Day would have been on Tuesday.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

If that. I. I don't know if you do anything special on Valentine's Day or not.

[A]

No, no.

[B]

Sometimes people do special and my schedules things.

[A]

So, yeah, I have to look back, but I'm pretty sure I was probably working okay. On Tuesday as well. I had Tuesdays off at one point, and then I had Wednesdays off, back and forth. So it could be. I. I'm sure I was probably working that Tuesday.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

If not, I would have been off.

[B]

Yeah. That had been a Monday, but. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Oh, the Monday. Yeah. Yeah, I would have been working on that day.

[B]

Okay. You got a daughter?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You just. Is that the only child you got?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Was she still in school back then? 2017.

[A]

She would have been in college.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Actually, I think she would have been married at that point because she graduated from Delphi in 13.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

13. Yeah. She would have probably been in Napanee at that point because she and her husband have been married about six years. Five or six years.

[B]

What's her name?

[A]

Brittany Allen.

[B]

All right. So she would have been out of school. She wouldn't have been around here.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

At that point in time?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because she went to college for like, she went to Ball State and four year degree. She.

[B]

She.

[A]

No. Two.

[B]

Two year. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And then she ended up getting a job right after that within probably six months and started living up in Napanee.

[B]

Okay, so she'd probably be in Napanee at that point.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

She graduated in 2013.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's just been you and your husband at home?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And our cats.

[B]

A lot of cats.

[A]

Well, we had three.

[B]

Three.

[A]

But now we have two now.

[B]

Yeah, that's plenty. Sometimes one is plenty.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So the two of you just lived at home at that point in time?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Was he working then?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay, where did he work then?

[A]

Cvs. He did work at Walmart too. I think he's had been at CVS about five or six years, so it might have been right on the cusp of him starting there.

[B]

And you said Walgreens.

[A]

Walmart.

[B]

Walmart, yeah. Okay.

[A]

It was in Lafayette.

[B]

The one on 26.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. And would you know whether he worked that day or not?

[A]

Oh, God, I can't remember. What? Yesterday.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I seriously am having a lot of brain fog with COVID so.

[B]

Okay, so you've had Covid then.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like three times.

[B]

Oh, it's not fun.

[A]

No.

[B]

The information that we have. And this actually came from him.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Was that he was on the trail that day.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Does he normally go to the trails?

[A]

Oh, we. We used to go quite a bit.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, yeah, we walked the trails a lot.

[B]

Would he go by himself or occasionally.

[A]

If he had the day off?

[B]

Okay, you might make some comments. Stepping aside from the reading.

[A]

Stepping aside from the reading. Okay. So we're establishing that him going to the trails is a common thing for him to do, especially on his days off, which we know he had a day off on Monday, February 13, and.

[B]

She did not have the day off, so she was not with him.

[A]

And no one else would have been in the household to be with him and seeing him or anything.

[B]

Not unusual for him to go to the trails by himself on his day off, which this was.

[A]

Yeah. Anyways, let's go back.

[B]

Okay. Back to it. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, I've done in on my day off before now. I haven't done it since they started doing construction and stuff. Actually, we don't walk the trails for. No, I. We walked the other trails and then the Monon one we walked, but it's probably been a year or two.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, we don't walk that one too much.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Interesting that they Stop walking it. Like, you know, at some point after the murders. Like, then there's been a behavior change. Odd.

[B]

Anyway, let's get back to it. So that wouldn't be unusual for him to go out and do the trails and.

[A]

No, because I do it too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. Until that happened. I mean, I. I don't care or anything, but I'm. I'm a little more cautious if I go by myself.

[B]

Right, but which part of the trails did you guys go to most of the time?

[A]

Well, we'd walk the main trail, and then there was one that would come off of that trail.

[B]

Okay. So I. The.

[A]

And there used to be, like, the.

[B]

Main one out there or the Monon Bridge one. Okay.

[A]

We'd walk that one, and then we would walk, you know, the turnaround, you'd have to turn around.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Because the tracks were getting really bad. At some point, I just quit going that way. And then there was a place that you could go down to the river. Like, canoers would go.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And we'd go down there quite a bit.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because it was prettier down there.

[B]

So would walk clear to the bridge. A lot of times we'd walk to the bridge.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then usually turn around because it's too hard to walk over it. But we did. Would you guys walk over it years ago, though?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, way before. Well, they still have the thing up there. I don't know if they have it shut off completely or not now, but I haven't been down there for years.

[B]

Yeah. Let's step out of this for a second. She's saying he regularly walks to the bridge up till some undefined date of years ago. They would even cross the bridge.

[A]

He's very familiar with the bridge.

[B]

In other words, walk down to the river. It seems like this is an area he has a lot of familiarity with, and he's very comfortable, again, going there by himself on days off. And the day of the murder was, of course, one of his days off.

[A]

It's interesting that she says that. Oh, she's more cautious if she goes by herself because she doesn't carry or anything. So aware of the murders, aware of the possible danger in that area. And she also notes that. I thought this was kind of a slightly weirdly defensive way to say things. The investigator says, so that wouldn't be unusual for him to go out and do the trails. And she says, no, because I do it too. You know, when, like, someone says something where they're almost, like, trying to minimize someone else's behavior by Being like, oh yeah, I do that all the time too. And it's just like, yeah, but like the girls weren't abducted by a woman.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So like it matters a little bit less about what you're doing, Kathy, and more about like what the man in your life is doing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it just, it oddly defensive there. Just a slight moment. But yeah, we can go back to it now.

[B]

Let's go back to it. Okay. When did you start, you guys start going out to the trails and walking the trails?

[A]

Oh my gosh, we've been here for 14 years.

[B]

Okay. Delphi area.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Okay. Where'd you come from before that?

[A]

Well, he lived for like a year in Greenwood because he was transferred from Walmart. And then before that we lived in Mexico, Indiana. And we lived there since 91 until like 2006 maybe. I think it was 2006 we moved here.

[B]

Okay. He worked for Walmart when you were living in Mexico too?

[A]

Or he worked for Mr. Steve's, which has now been sold, but it was a rent to own company.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And that was in Lafayette. He did like supervisor through district, like supervisor.

[B]

And he went to Walmart from there?

[A]

Yes, I believe that Walmart was his next one. There were a few little odd ones. Like there was a factory, he tried Chrysler for a while and then he tried another one and I can't remember the name of the other factory, but he didn't stay.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he ended up in Walmart.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then he worked at Walmart for all the way up until cvs.

[B]

So about how long did he work for Walmart?

[A]

Oh, gosh, I can't recall. I'm sorry, I don't know what year he started.

[B]

Okay. Okay. And the information that we've got from him was that he parked the old Farm Bureau building, but that's what was given to us. But that would be the old CPS building.

[A]

Farm building.

[B]

It'd be the CPS building.

[A]

Was that the one that was off the trail that was abandoned? Uh huh, yeah.

[B]

Is that where you guys usually parked or.

[A]

Oh yeah, had to, I mean.

[B]

Okay, let's step out of this for a minute. Why is that so crucial, Anya?

[A]

Because that's where a mysterious car that was noted by different people on the day of the murders was parked.

[B]

So on the day of the murders, a car was parked where Richard Allen liked to park when he visited the trails. And we know he liked to visit the trails when he had days off. At least it was something he would do when he had days off. And we know he's very familiar with the trails, especially around the bridge, which is where the kidnapping and murders occurred.

[A]

It's pretty stunning. I mean, she's giving away the whole game here. I have a lot of thoughts about this. I also will note she really doesn't seem to remember a lot about her husband's career. It's interesting. Also, we used to live right near Greenwood, so that's kind of freaky. Like, ugh. Yeah, I don't. Yeah, she doesn't remember a lot. Some people have bad memories.

[B]

In fairness to her, it seems like he had a lot of jobs.

[A]

Yeah, he couldn't keep anything down because he's a human, you know, disaster. So let's.

[B]

Let's go back to it. Do you want to pick up from. It was either that or you had to park down the road.

[A]

Sure. Quote, it was either that or you had to park down the road, which you weren't supposed to do.

[B]

Right. Do they still have the parking lot?

[A]

Yeah, but you had to, like, go down into a ditch to get to it.

[B]

But. Okay.

[A]

People would park there all the time.

[B]

So he would normally park out there.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's where we park.

[B]

All right. Well, you know what he would have been driving during that time.

[A]

We had our gray car.

[B]

I know we're talking, like, five years ago, but I don't recall.

[A]

Hun. I'm sorry. We had our gray car, and then we had a black car. A black car we still have, but it could have been mine because I don't remember what I would have driven that day to work.

[B]

What was the black car?

[A]

It's a Ford.

[B]

Ford. Ford.

[A]

Ford Focus Focus.

[B]

And the gray car was.

[A]

That was a Ford 500.

[B]

Which one did he normally drive back then?

[A]

Normally the black car.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mm. But like I said, I don't. I can't recall that day if I drove mine or his to work.

[B]

Okay, so he would normally. That's where you guys parked, was the old.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

CPS building.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Yeah.

[A]

Let's step out of this for a minute. So, I mean, like, yeah. What she's saying is totally devastating to.

[B]

Her husband because the defense tried to make it sound like, oh, no, he wouldn't have been driving that Focus because that was his wife's car.

[A]

It's like, oops. Well, his wife says different. So here's another. Here's another thing I want to point out here. This case, and I think one of the reasons she's so blase here, a lot of these details seem very small. They don't seem like something that would hang somebody. They. They just seem like minor details, minor incidental minutiae. And that incidental minutiae is exactly what, like, builds the anvil that fell atop Richard Allen at this trial. Like, all of those tiny little particles, almost particulate information, build up into something bigger. So by providing some of these key details and making some of these statements, even if, you know, Even if it's like, they're just able to use. I mean, it's just. It's so damning.

[B]

Yes. I don't mean to speak in bad taste, but in this interview, it very much feels to me like she is putting the noose around his neck and tying it, even though she doesn't seem to be aware of the significance of some of these admissions. Perhaps she is. I don't know.

[A]

I have. I have a thought on that that I want to share at the end of all this.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So. Okay. So where were we?

[B]

I think at the top of page 162. Yeah. Let's get back to it.

[A]

Yeah. Because we had. I mean, you're not supposed to park at the gates because they always acted like you weren't supposed to block it, so.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm sure we probably parked there a couple times, but I'm like, I don't feel comfortable parking there.

[B]

Yeah, a lot of people did.

[A]

Yeah. Because I think it's private property there.

[B]

And I knew they built the big lot there, up where the other bridge.

[A]

But that was years down. I don't think we ever used that one.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't think we ever used that one.

[B]

All right, so then when you parked there, how would you normally get to the trails?

[A]

Oh, gosh. That was before they built the bridge, the Freedom Bridge. Because there was.

[B]

Is that what you're talking about?

[A]

Yeah. Because I think the trail.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Came down right there where that's built now.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You didn't cross the bridge, so I guess we took that. There's like, a little gravel walkway.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That goes from that building we parked at. And then you can just go down the trail, I think.

[B]

All right. And that would be.

[A]

And up a little hill, maybe east.

[B]

Of what's now the Freedom Bridge.

[A]

Don't ask me east or west.

[B]

So it would be away from town?

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. East would be away from town. West would be towards town.

[A]

It's east. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Did he ever talk to you about being out there that day?

[A]

No.

[B]

The day the girls went missing?

[A]

No.

[B]

Never said a word about it.

[A]

Well, actually, no. He said he went for a walk.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He did Say he went for a walk out there and that he ran into these three girls that were weird.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so he was like, I'm just gonna go home because one of them had long black hair, or at least that's what he told me. I don't know.

[B]

Let's step out of this for a minute.

[A]

I'm trying to keep from screaming here.

[B]

So why don't you take this one?

[A]

No, no, no, you take it. I'm literally. I can't.

[B]

One of the key points is that there were these three girls on the trails that day who saw Bridge Guy. And they described a person meeting Richard Allen's descriptions. And so it became very crucial in trial that Richard Allen also saw them. And so it appears that this incident where he saw those three girls was so important to him that he shared it with Kathie well before the arrest, because she's aware of it and she's sharing it with police.

[A]

I also just want to say something. They ask her once, oh, I don't know. I don't think he was out there. I mean, this is. This is like the biggest incident that's ever happened in this city. And your husband comes home that day, or, you know, is home that day when you arrive from work and is saying, I was there. And your initial thought is, let me deny that. And then. And then it's, oh, no, I do remember him. And then what's so telling for me, quote, he ran into these three girls that were weird. End quote. No, Kathy, it was your sexually deviant pervert husband who was acting weird toward them and glaring at them because he was annoyed that other people were out there witnessing him hunting for someone to rape. That was what was weird. Everyone else was just trying to walk the trails. It's like. It's like he's blaming them, and it's almost like he's setting her up. Oh, those girls were weird. They were looking at me weird. I got a weird vibe from them. So they say something that they saw me. They're just weird. They're trying to frame me. It's like he. He preconditioned her. I mean, or.

[B]

Or.

[A]

Or whatever. Like, they're the weird ones. Like, I did. That just strikes me as so telling somehow. Like. And frankly, if. Like, I feel like a lot of couples, if the husband or.

[B]

Or.

[A]

Or the wife or whoever. Whatever partner comes home is like, oh, yeah, they were weird. How did they, like, yell at you? What?

[B]

Well, let's. Let's. This comes up in the next section of this interview. So while we get right back to it.

[A]

Let's do it. Were. We keep losing my weight. Oh, okay.

[B]

I want to pick it up with. What did he say was weird about them?

[A]

I don't know. That's all he told me.

[B]

Do you know what he was wearing that day?

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Anything unusual when he got home or did you get home later in the day or.

[A]

I got home later in the day.

[B]

Okay, about what time would you have gotten home?

[A]

Probably six. Because at that time we were open until five o'. Clock. So six, six thirty, if I remember correctly. He was sleeping when I got home. He was on the couch.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he was.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

So that night, I remember on the news it came up that the girls were missing and I wanted to go out and look for them.

[B]

Okay, what was his opinion on that point?

[A]

Well, of course I can't go out and look for them because that's too many people out there. But he said, just let them do their job. So.

[B]

Okay, so he wasn't.

[A]

He goes, we don't need to be out there with all these people. There's too much going on. You know, if you're out there, then, you know, anything could happen. If they find stuff, you know, laying around, they could blame you and all that shit.

[B]

So let's step out of this for a minute because this is something we reported, that she wanted to help in the search that day and he wouldn't let her. That certainly is worth noting. It seems very odd. I think it's interesting that he says the reason why I don't want you to participate in the search is maybe we'd end up getting blamed.

[A]

That's a very bizarre reason.

[B]

Yeah, that's. That feels to me like something a guilty person would say.

[A]

That is something a guilty person would say. That doesn't make any damn sense, you know, how are you? Listen, people found the girls the next day. They weren't. They weren't. They were cleared. They weren't, you know, their lives weren't upended. Other than just the normal level of upending. Being involved in this case gets you. I thought it was weird again, like him saying the girls were weird. To go back to that. Oh, no reason. He doesn't tell me. Like, I would have been like, wait, why are they weird? Kevin, what's going on? Like, these people don't. Like, they just live in their own little bubbles. It's just bizarre. But, yeah, him saying, we don't need to be out there with all these people. Why, like, do you think you're better than other people in Delphi or helping to find two lost kids. And again, if you. I keep. I keep putting my own experience being a married person in it, but if you were saying such weird stuff to me in this context, I would be asking for more information to understand why you were saying those things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it just seems like these people are not in the habit of doing that. I think in most situations, a lot of people with a healthy marriage and normal lines of communication. If I suddenly start saying Kevin making excuses for not doing something that you think is really weird, that would be a conversation we would have.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Why do you feel that way? What do you mean? That we don't want to be blamed? We wouldn't be blamed. What? Like, what do you think would happen? And let me just point something out. So at this point, when. Whenever you ask anybody, there was a possibility the girls could be dead, There was the possibility that they could have fallen off the bridge. Most people thought that they might be deceased from an accident or that they might have been injured and lost somewhere. Why was he immediately thinking someone's gonna be blamed for that? It's because he knew they were murdered. Because he did it.

[B]

He did it.

[A]

And he's sleeping off his little, you know, like, high that he got from it. When she comes home.

[B]

Should we get back to it?

[A]

And honestly, I think he was probably excited that it came up on the news and that he could manipulate his wife into, you know, not participating. Let's go.

[B]

Let's get back to it. Okay. Laundry. Do you do the laundry? Does he do the laundry? Does.

[A]

We both do.

[B]

Okay. Had he done laundry that day?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

I know we're talking a long time ago.

[A]

I don't remember. I'm sorry.

[B]

I mean, five years ago. I can't tell you a whole lot either.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But. Okay, so he admitted to being the Freedom Bridge that day.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

He admitted to seeing three females. Said one was taller and had brown or long black hair.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Then he said he walked from the Freedom Bridge to the high bridge.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Is that a normal.

[A]

Oh, yeah. We both did that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Said he didn't see anybody else.

[A]

Mm.

[B]

Does he do stocks a lot?

[A]

Yes. Oh, not a lot. No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He used to.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It got overwhelming. So it's pretty much just 401.

[B]

How did.

[A]

But he did do a lot of that.

[B]

How did. How did he do the stocks?

[A]

He would just do them at home, mostly on his day off. Oh, so he could actually be there and, like, watch and trade.

[B]

The computer thing where He.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Traded himself and.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yes. That got overwhelming. So he quit doing that. Can't stand to lose more money and, you know, keep losing and gaining and.

[B]

Okay, but he usually did that at home, though.

[A]

Oh, yeah, he did that at home.

[B]

Okay. Did he do it on his phone any or.

[A]

I can't tell you that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't think so.

[B]

All right, let's.

[A]

Let's pause here for a minute. So Richard Allen's story to Department of Natural Resources Officer Dan Doolin was that on the day of the murders, he was looking at the stock ticker on his phone. His phone does not come up in the tower data at the. You know, for. For that area. So that's one thing. But then his wife is also here saying that, no, that was something he would do on his computer on his days off at home, and that she's not aware and does not believe that he was doing that on his phone. Although she can't be 100. Sure.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we'll get back to this.

[B]

Let's get back to it.

[A]

I know he did it on the computer at home, but he may have done it on his phone. I don't know.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I. I never look at his phone. I trust him enough not to have to do that.

[B]

He talked about any other people or vehicles being out there that day?

[A]

Oh, my gosh, no. I don't recall. No. I don't know.

[B]

Okay. Do you know what kind of phones you had back then?

[A]

I think I've always had a Samsung.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He may have had a razr. I know he's had a RAZR before. Trying to think of the other one. Gosh, I can't think.

[B]

Do you know the service?

[A]

You'll have to name off some.

[B]

Who the service provider was with.

[A]

Well, we bounced around a little bit. I think our main one was Verizon at that time.

[B]

Okay. I know cell phone signals are terrible over here.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Mine's pretty good, though. On ting, we have ting.

[B]

Never heard of that.

[A]

Check into it. It's really nice.

[B]

Is that a small one, then?

[A]

You save a lot of money. It's through. They work off of other networks. Let's just pause here for a minute. This is so bizarre. Like, are these people being paid by ting? Because I remember in the Richard Allen first interview with Liggett and Mullen that he's going to. It feels like they, like, spent half of the time talking about how great TING is. Okay. I just wanted to point that out. It's weird. It's weird. Why is this keep coming up? Let's go back.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But they charge you by how many minutes you use in data and it's like a set price.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And so if you don't use it too terribly much, you can get it for less than $40 a month.

[B]

Ting.

[A]

For both. Ting. Ting.

[B]

Ting.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

You heard of that one?

[A]

Never heard of that. Now, now I guess there's a.

[B]

We're out of it for a second here.

[A]

The reason we're laughing is because suddenly instead of just answer and question, there's a question mark person talking and some him he's saying. Never heard of that one. And then I guess that's Kathy Allen. Yeah. You want you just be both investigators. Okay.

[B]

Okay, I apologize.

[A]

Ting. Murderer's favorite cell phone.

[B]

Let's go back back to it.

[A]

So. Okay, yeah, look it up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe that's why it's so cheap.

[B]

Yeah, it could be. That's. That's a new one on me.

[A]

It's. It's really good and great service. So check it out.

[B]

Okay. All right. Does your husband have guns or knives or weapons?

[A]

Well, we both have some knives.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We. We do have a couple guns. Now, I'm not a shooter, but he bought me one and I can't even tell you what the one he bought is. He bought me. And then I have my own revolver. Okay, so we have two guns, two handguns and then my revolver, which I guess counts as three.

[B]

Okay. Do you know what those two handguns are?

[A]

I can't remember.

[B]

You know if they're like a 9 millimeter. 380, 45, 40.

[A]

Like I said.

[B]

22.

[A]

I don't shoot it, so I can't remember. There's too many numbers. I haven't shot it in years.

[B]

There's semi auto because you said you had a revolver. Oh, which are semi autos.

[A]

It's a pearl handled revolver.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't. It's a long time ago.

[B]

Your revolver.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

My dad gave it to me.

[B]

What about the other two handguns?

[A]

Oh, I can't tell you what they are. I can't.

[B]

They're not revolvers though.

[A]

No. They have clips.

[B]

Yeah. So they'd be semi automatic.

[A]

Sorry, sorry.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, they don't have. No, I don't think.

[B]

No, bigger, smaller?

[A]

I can't tell you. I'm sorry, I'm not good with handgun name.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like the numbers.

[B]

And you say it could be a.

[A]

9, it could be the 35i or whatever you said 380. See, I. No, I don't think it's a.380.

[B]

380. 22, I don't think.32. 9 millimeter.

[A]

It's not a.22. It could be a 9.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I can't tell you for sure.

[B]

Nines, 40s, 45s. What am I missing?

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

Three hundred and fifty seven. But those are mostly revolvers. But they make them semi automatic. They do make some semi automatic.

[A]

I don't know. I'm sorry.

[B]

38 I guess. 38. There's some revolvers or semi automatic in 38. How, how big are the bullets for the guns?

[A]

I guess that long.

[B]

Are they thick or are they.

[A]

No, they're not thicker.

[B]

They're not thicker? No. Okay.

[A]

No, they're. They're thicker or thinner.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

There's probably a nine in it.

[B]

Nine's a popular model.

[A]

Yeah, I know. He tried to go one smaller for me.

[B]

That's a 9 millimeter.

[A]

It's probably, well thicker than that or. I don't know if they're thicker than that. I thought they were smaller than that. Maybe I'm thinking of my.22 because my pistol is.22.

[B]

22S are real small.

[A]

Excuse me. That's what I'm used to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's what I have in the revolver. But.

[B]

So you've got.

[A]

I. I seriously don't even shoot my gun. So he got it for me and I'm like, I need to take lessons because I don't even know how to shoot it really.

[B]

Does he shoot a lot or.

[A]

We haven't shot in years.

[B]

Okay. Did he carry a gun with him a lot?

[A]

No. I mean we would carry it sometimes if we were out fishing.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Because we did fish. We'd go to Carrollton and fish. But we didn't carry it on the trails.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We never carry handguns on the trails.

[B]

Okay. Could he have.

[A]

Or I suppose anybody could, but I couldn't tell you what he did that day.

[B]

Let's step out of it for a minute here. What's crucial here, of course, is that there was an unspent cartridge recovered at the crime scene which was later ballistically linked to one of Richard Allen's guns. And so they're basically saying. They're basically trying to give Richard Allen an out. Or they. If she had said, oh yes, he carries the gun with him on the trails every single time he goes to the trails.

[A]

And when you practice shooting in the.

[B]

Woods randomly, that would have created a situation. Well, maybe the unspent cartridge was left there on another occasion. But she's Saying, no, we don't shoot anymore. We haven't done it in years. And he doesn't carry it when he goes out on the trails.

[A]

Yeah. If Richard Allen had been able to pull out his phone and be like, hey, look, here's where I'm showing some people how I, you know, unload my handgun the day before the murders, then there would have been a good reason for his cartridge to be there because he just forgot about it doing something innocuous. And he would not be where he is now because there would have been explanation. It just, you could just see all these exits that she's able to take that she just, you know, completely blows past and is just screaming down the highway, you know, it's just fascinating.

[B]

Well, let's get back to it. You mentioned Chrysler, did he actually work for Chrysler?

[A]

He did, but it wasn't for very long.

[B]

Do you. Was he at the plant there or.

[A]

Yeah, okay, he was at the plant and then he started having like an allergic reactions to some of the chemicals and stuff.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So he had to quit working there.

[B]

Do you remember when that was? How long?

[A]

I don't. My memory is not good. You guys, like before a lot of.

[B]

Stuff before 2017, after 2017, it would.

[A]

Have been a while. It would have been while we were still in Mexico.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm pretty sure it was still before we moved to Greenwood.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, it was because my, his father was very disappointed in him for quitting.

[B]

And you know what division he worked or no. Was it a section?

[A]

I don't remember.

[B]

Daily job was there.

[A]

I can't remember. I'm sorry.

[B]

Okay, no problem.

[A]

I just want to step out for a second. So his dad's disappointed him for quitting a good factory job. Interesting.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think he's seen widely as the sad sack, kind of pathetic. Nothing of the family who can't, you know, do anything. You know, he's. He had all these opportunities, I know within retail to move up and have good jobs, managerial jobs, leadership jobs, which, which can be a good opportunity within a, you know, a larger retail conglomerate like Walmart or cvs. Like that's an opportunity to get more money, maybe have some more, you know, opportunities for growth. And he just couldn't, he couldn't fulfill any of them. And so it sounds like his father, at least in one instance, in an unrelated thing with Chrysler, was disappointed in him. And. Yeah, it's just interesting.

[B]

Let's get back to it.

[A]

Let's do it.

[B]

You mentioned he had a razor. Do you back then? Did he? Did he have a smartphone at all or.

[A]

We've always had a phone. I mean, we went from the big ones to, like, flips and.

[B]

Ah.

[A]

I know he had a razor. He had at least two of those.

[B]

The razors were the flip back still, right?

[A]

Oh, is that still a flip?

[B]

That was a flip. Okay, the razor.

[A]

So we had two of those, but he ran over one of them.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

With the lawnmower.

[B]

That's a good way to do it.

[A]

Not really. Yeah, it was expensive, so we had a razor. I don't know. He might have had a Motorola at some point because I remember the M being on our phones. So that might have been another one.

[B]

Let's stop there.

[A]

What happened? He ran over his phone with a lawnmower.

[B]

We know the phone that he was using at the time of the murders is missing. This certainly creates an interesting question. Did he choose to deliberately destroy that phone in a pretty extravagant fashion because he was worried about what might be on it?

[A]

Do we know that the rate one of the razors was one of the phones, though, that he would have had in 2017 or the phone that he would have had? I don't know.

[B]

I don't know if we do, but.

[A]

I mean, even if it wasn't, he had a history of doing that. How does that happen? How on. How in God's name does that happen?

[B]

Yeah, we're not sure if that's the phone in question, but if he's destroying a phone with a lawnmower, I mean.

[A]

It raises some bizarre images and certainly possibilities. Again, I don't. I don't. If it was a razor would. Do people really still have flip phones in 2017? I don't really think so, but, like, he knew how to get rid of a phone.

[B]

I guess you knew how to get rid of the phone in, like, a.

[A]

Stupid and dangerous way. This guy is just like such a. Like everything. Whatever. We can get into this at the end.

[B]

Okay. So she has just said that she remembers an M being on their phones. And so while we pick it up from there. Okay.

[A]

I love how she's so proud about not looking at his phone. It's like, yeah, maybe you should have been.

[B]

Anyways, let's get back to it. I know you said you didn't look at his phone.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did you? Did you? We talked about him trading.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did he ever have any apps on his phone? Like, did you ever see him checking stocks on whatever it was he might have?

[A]

I wouldn't even know how to look that up on his phone. Seriously.

[B]

He might have did he ever mention to you I'm looking at like when you guys are sitting on the couch watching tv, did he ever like. Yeah, I'm just checking my stocks on the phone as well as on the computer?

[A]

Um, no, because we just kind of do our own thing on our phones.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We don't really pay attention to each other. Okay. Understatement of the year. That's me coming out of the interview for a minute. Let's go back in.

[B]

Let's get back to it. Okay, that's fine. It's fair enough.

[A]

Ask what you are looking.

[B]

You do social media?

[A]

No. Or at least he tells me he has never been on social media.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he can't stand that I'm on it.

[B]

So you're on it.

[A]

I'm on TikTok too much and Facebook. Yeah.

[B]

Pretty addicting.

[A]

I am. TikTok is really bad. Yeah. I need to cool that down. Two hours a day is too much.

[B]

Let's step out for a second. She's spending two hours a day on TikTok. Is that an unusually high amount?

[A]

I don't know. Sound off social media addicts in the comments.

[B]

I'm not on TikTok, so I don't know.

[A]

I know doom scrolling and social media addiction or social media people get on to it and it's not a good thing, I think for anyone's emotional health. But I think that's probably not uncommon for people to do that. It's. Again, it's not a good thing. It's not necessarily the biggest red flag. I think a lot of people, I mean our phones and the apps on our phones, in fairness to Kathy Allen, are designed to be as addicting as possible and to give you that dopamine hit that you might not be getting in your life. And so it ends up. We end up just kind of stuck in some of these doom scrolling situations. It does seem interesting that he's trying to. I can understand a spouse being just concerned about like someone's inordinate level of social media consumption, but the fact that they. He was kind of seemingly upset with her about that is interesting.

[B]

Right, let's get back to it. You're on Facebook.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. When you were at work and he would go the trails and go walking, would he ever go with anybody? Is there other people?

[A]

You know, I mean, he'd go with family.

[B]

Family, yeah. Do you know who he'd go with or.

[A]

He would go with me and Brittany when she was still home. And sometimes if my brother David and John were up. But John's passed away since then.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then my mother in law would go along if she was here.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, we kind of made it a family event most times.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, you guys want to go for a walk?

[B]

And David and John are. David and John.

[A]

John's passed away.

[B]

What's their last name?

[A]

David Walker.

[B]

Walker. Okay. John Walker.

[A]

John. Mm.

[B]

When did John pass away?

[A]

2016.

[B]

Okay. They live around here or.

[A]

Peru.

[B]

Peru. And mother in law was.

[A]

Mother in law is Janice Allen.

[B]

Where'd she live?

[A]

She lives in Mexico. Indiana.

[B]

Mexico?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. How about the name Jerry Klein? Does that ring any bells to you or Toni Klein?

[A]

I just seen the name in the news recently.

[B]

Okay, you don't know him?

[A]

No.

[B]

Not familiar with him at all.

[A]

Never heard of him. And the funny thing is, I think he. Is he from Peru?

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Because I grew up in Peru, but he's probably a lot younger than I am, so I don't know.

[B]

Everybody, let's step out for a minute. There's been a lot of speculation that Richard Allen had some connection to the Kleins. Kagan. Klein, of course. And then Kagan's father is Tony Klein, sometimes known as Jerry Klein. So Kathy Allen is at least making the claim that she. She doesn't know those people even though.

[A]

They'Re around the same age. She's. I don't think she's right. I think they're around the same age or at least like they. I don't. We've heard from people that they thought they knew both the Kleins and the Allens. So we know we never were able to get some sort of substantive link going there. I think it's interesting, you know, she kind of goes over her family. Yeah. It's kind of like. It sounds like they were at these trails a lot. He was very familiar with this trail system.

[B]

Right.

[A]

All right.

[B]

Should we pick up when they're asking about her sister?

[A]

Yeah, go ahead.

[B]

Joyce Brunel.

[A]

She's my sister.

[B]

She's your sister?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't talk to her really.

[B]

So you're not close or. When was the last time you talked with her?

[A]

I texted her maybe a month ago.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't talk to her though.

[B]

What? Just never got along as sisters or.

[A]

I don't know. We're just opposites.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Complete opposites.

[B]

Does she hang out with a bad crowd or.

[A]

No, she's not a bad person.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But she just. I. She's very needy and she likes to use people and I just don't do that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Problem.

[B]

Okay. How about the name Jennifer Walton?

[A]

I went to school with her.

[B]

Okay. You communicate with her?

[A]

No.

[B]

Talk to her?

[A]

No.

[B]

Facebook or anything?

[A]

No.

[B]

Follow her?

[A]

We friended each other a long time ago, but then I just, like, unfriended, so.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I just. I don't know. It's hard to connect with people you haven't been around forever. You can't just pick. Really pick up where you left off. So I don't see a lot of people from school anymore, so.

[B]

Okay. How about Peru or Mexico? You see much?

[A]

Nope, just my family.

[B]

Okay. No friends still back on there or.

[A]

Well, I had Kim and she passed away, so.

[B]

Okay. Kim.

[A]

Kim Hall. Hall, yeah.

[B]

Okay. So she was from Peru.

[A]

Yeah, she was from Peru.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I was closest to her. I mean, there have been a few work friends that I see once a year, but nobody I hang out with quite often.

[B]

So you've never run across Jerry Klein on Facebook?

[A]

No.

[B]

Or any social media activities or. Okay. Kegan Klein?

[A]

I don't know that name.

[B]

Okay, but you know the name. You recognize the name Jerry on the news, though?

[A]

In the news, yeah.

[B]

Okay. Would your husband have known any of these people?

[A]

He has never talked about them, so I wouldn't think so.

[B]

Jerry Klein or Joyce Brunell? I mean, he knows her. Yeah, obviously, since that's your sister.

[A]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Does he communicate with her much or.

[A]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Not at all.

[B]

Jennifer Walton?

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Doesn't know her or he wouldn't know her. Never talked about her?

[A]

Nope.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

No.

[B]

So he's originally from Mexico.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And you're originally from Peru?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Did you both go to Peru High School?

[A]

We went to two different schools.

[B]

Two different schools?

[A]

Yeah. He went to North Miami.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And I went to Peru.

[B]

All right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I wasn't sure where. Mexico.

[A]

That's okay.

[B]

School at?

[A]

Yeah. It's not too far. His school was in Denver, Indiana. So that's probably five minutes from Mexico.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then Mexico, Indiana is probably about seven or eight minutes from Peru.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I was thinking North Miami was the school is actually south of Peru a little bit, or is it north?

[A]

I'm not good with direction.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I can tell you how to get there.

[B]

Okay. Because I think it was somewhere out by the Air Force base.

[A]

No, you're going in the wrong direction.

[B]

Okay. I'm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's north of there.

[A]

You've got to go north.

[B]

Sorry, it's.

[A]

Yeah, you've got to go north. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. I couldn't remember exactly where that was.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. And Mexico is right off 31 okay. And then if you go up a little further, you've got a sign that goes to Denver.

[B]

Okay, so it's.

[A]

They're both off 31.

[B]

Because I was thinking Mexico was north of Peru.

[A]

Tiny bit north from.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Or whatever direction you want to call that. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Okay. Never got over there much, so.

[A]

It's a nice little town, Mexico.

[B]

Yeah. I've never been to the town itself, so.

[A]

Well, there's not much there, but it was a nice, quiet town.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're not getting those much anymore, age wise.

[B]

I mean, both of you are about the same age then, or.

[A]

Yeah, I'm nine months older.

[B]

Okay, so within the same year or so.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You're talking about my husband and I. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's not. He's not my sister.

[B]

I was gonna say that's pretty close.

[A]

No?

[B]

Nine months between you and your sister?

[A]

No, I don't think so.

[B]

Yeah, that'd be pretty quick. All right. So you don't remember the phones you had back then? You.

[A]

I can't, sir. I'm sorry.

[B]

And you don't remember him talking about being out there that day or anything going on out there that day or.

[A]

Yeah, all he mentioned was those girls. He said they were just kind of odd. Okay, So I don't remember him saying anything else.

[B]

Okay. And you don't remember anything odd with him that day?

[A]

No.

[B]

Anything different or acting different or communicating with anybody else he doesn't normally communicate with before or after?

[A]

I think. Did he go to his mom's that day? Is that his day off?

[B]

I don't know. He says he was out there between 1:30 and 3:30. Okay, so would he have gone to his mom's and been back by then?

[A]

He might have gone to his mom's in the morning.

[B]

Okay. Is that normal or.

[A]

Oh, yeah. We go see his parents whenever we want.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Sometimes I go by myself.

[B]

I. I don't know if he just split up and end up.

[A]

Oh, no.

[B]

Head over there that way or.

[A]

No, I'm trying to remember the times because he's been in deep depressions for years, but I can't tell you why he would have went there. You said, I want to step out for a second. I just want to. It's interesting, you know, she doesn't get along with her sister and not. Not a lot of friends from school. You know, if you're. If you're like. I don't want to, like, read too much into some of this, but some of this, like, she just strikes me as a Somewhat isolated person.

[B]

And it sounds like one of her big social activities, outside of being ignored by her husband, is visiting her husband's mother. That she'd even go visit her husband's mother by herself.

[A]

Yeah, she doesn't get along with her sister.

[B]

Her.

[A]

One of her brothers is dead. The other one's, you know, at least at this time, still living, but, you know, has fallen out with. With, you know, not fallen out, but she's just drifted away from all these school friends. It just. She just strikes me as very isolated. And. Yeah, that point about them kind of ignoring each other on the couch, looking at their own phones, I don't really get an impression of closeness between them. On the other one. On one hand, they seem very entangled in a lot of those, you know, interview, you know, when. In those recorded phone calls where it's sort of this mutual manipulation. But it just. I don't know, it's like they just have these, like, siloed off lives and that she's kind of isolated from anyone else on her little island with this guy. It's kind of sad. All right, if he did go, we're back. We're going back in. So if he did go.

[B]

Deep depressions.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Does he take medication for that?

[A]

He does.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He's been on too many to even tell you where to begin with that.

[B]

And you say for years. How.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

How long?

[A]

Well, he's had anxiety since childhood, really. But his depression, he's had that for probably 20, 25 years. Me as well.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Only mine's more situational.

[B]

I think everybody goes through some depression, people. Yeah.

[A]

It's very depressing.

[B]

Yeah. It takes a while to work through that.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

You know, get over it and, you know it's going to happen at some point, but you just never.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So anything else you can think. You were talking about the day when you wanted to go out to help with the search party. Was that normal of him to say, no, let's not do it, or is it.

[A]

Well, yeah, because it wasn't reasonable. I mean, it was. Wasn't reasonable to have a bunch of people out there.

[B]

Was that his norm, though, where, like, if you. It was like anything else, would he.

[A]

Be like, oh, no, he wouldn't want to go.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It wouldn't matter. He'd be like, no, you're just gonna hinder things.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So you need to stay out of it. I mean, I think everybody probably was thinking that that day.

[B]

Let me step out for a moment to say, that's not what everybody was thinking because the vast majority of people in deli were there to help out with the search. Yeah.

[A]

And also, this is different from what she said earlier before. He wasn't saying, kathy, you're going to trip and bungle things and ruin evidence and do this or that. He was saying, they're going to blame us. Yeah, that's a weird, like, there's no innocent reason for that response. That's a bizarre response at this point where nobody thinks there's been a murder.

[B]

And also the comment you made earlier when talking, you said that she seems to try to defend him by saying what he's doing. I, I do, too. And I, I saw that again, this, this last segment where he has deep depression, where I have depression, too.

[A]

It's like, it's like, you know, like when you hear someone talk, like, and you can tell they're in a toxic relationship because it's like, oh, yeah. And they're describing, like, emotional abuse, and it's like, but he doesn't hit me or anything. Or, you know, I, I'm like that, too. I complain a lot, too. It's just like this reflect. She's not just a confident person who's confident about her relationship, who's confident about her husband, doesn't need to reflexively, instinctively start to defend him before anyone even says anything. She knows what he is, to a certain extent, at least, yes.

[B]

All right, let's get back to it. On his meds, has he been continuous with them? Does there. Was there any time period where he didn't take them for a while and went back to them, or.

[A]

He's always been on religious about taking what he's told to. But I'm telling you things. Some of the things do not work well for him.

[B]

Okay, so you're saying some meds, like, weren't doing their job, he had to switch to a different one or they.

[A]

Weren'T doing their job or.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He didn't have the right doctor to be switching his meds around.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I mean, we struggled for quite a few years with that with the doctors.

[B]

Was he ever misdiagnosed with anything and was actually something else or.

[A]

Well, they, they diagnosed him with major depressive disorder. He's seen, like two or three psychiatrists, but I think he's bipolar.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And it's just. Nobody's diagnosing anything. Right. But right now he's doing great on his Prozac.

[B]

Okay, let's step outside of this for a moment. I think there's a point you wanted to make.

[A]

We made the editorial decision to remove this, although these are public records and everyone's going to see it anyway. But I do want to note that Kathy references one of Richard Allen's direct relatives also being diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

[B]

Okay. Should we get back to it?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. So back around that time, was he on the. Oh, was the medicine good or.

[A]

No, I mean he's been struggling for quite a few years getting the right medicines.

[B]

I mean but five years ago, back 2017, was everything, the medicine working at that point in time?

[A]

My years have all ran together. I. That might have been the downward spiral at that time or he could. I, I don't remember what he was on at that time.

[B]

Did things change after that?

[A]

Did things change after that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

Got better, get worse, have to change medications.

[A]

Well, he's always a stressed out person regardless, so it's hard for me to say if anything got worse. I mean it's not been good for quite a few years.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Until like the LA this last year when he finally got something that worked. But I mean he's been struggling for years. I can't tell you exactly when it would have started and got worse, but I know that after I lost my brother it was really bad. I think, I think things started maybe after that. That and that was 2016, so. But I can't tell you what all meds he was on, they didn't so many switching. I.

[B]

It was horrible activity wise for your husband other than obviously the trails and like going walking, fishing. Is there anything else that he was into? No, we're any kind of sports or things like a lodge or.

[A]

No, we're kind of homebodies. I mean it was hard to get him interested in any hobbies. So the fishing was pretty much it. And we play pool. We do that occasionally. We played a lot at JCS when it was still here.

[B]

What's a link?

[A]

League league, Pool league. Huh.

[B]

Oh, a pool league.

[A]

And then they shut Jaycee's down, so we just kind of haven't really been much.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

But that's because it was nice and local.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Or going and playing pool and going out to eat and I'm fine with that mess.

[B]

Yeah. When he worked for Walmart, was it exclusively Lafayette or did he ever go to any other locations?

[A]

Well, he didn't start with Lafayette with Walmart. He was in Plymouth at one point. Then he went to Illinois and worked for two years.

[B]

Illinois, the state?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And he would go back and forth between home and us.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

I think that was maybe I. And then he ended up back at Walmart on the west side, I think. And there's probably two. I don't know which one he worked at. And then they transferred him to Commerce. So he's worked at several different Walmarts.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But he kept going up in status so they would switch him from one to another.

[B]

And what did he do there?

[A]

Well, he started off at supervisor and then got moved up to. What do you call it? Not assistant manager. I can't remember which one. And then he got manager at Illinois. And then that was just too much stress, so he had to quit that after two years and come home.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because it almost killed. It about killed him.

[B]

What's he doing?

[A]

CVS now he's a supervisor.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. One of probably three or four.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

But he hasn't worked at any other cvs. Is just this one. It wasn't like Walmart. And he won't go back to that rat race.

[B]

So is it. Is it more low key now?

[A]

Yeah, well. Well, as low key as you can get in retail.

[B]

Yeah. But I would think it's better than Walmart.

[A]

But yeah. Walmart's horrible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Too many people.

[B]

Has he always carried one phone or does he have multiple phones at all?

[A]

I have never seen him carry more than one phone.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And work doesn't provide him with one, so.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

He pretty much has to answer questions on his personal phone.

[B]

Did any of his jobs provide him with a phone like Walmart or when.

[A]

He worked at Mr. Steve's, he had the great big clunky phone.

[B]

And what's. What's the clinky phone?

[A]

The one that looks like a brick.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You don't remember those.

[B]

I know. Yeah, they're horrible. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. He had one of those for work. And then I don't even know that we had cell phones for ourselves yet then. For ourselves.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And then at some point we got our own phones, but I don't recall anyone giving him a phone other than them.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I don't think he had a work phone after that.

[B]

Do you know his email address?

[A]

Well, we use the same one.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

[e-mail] and I have my own too. But he may have his own individual. I have no idea.

[B]

Huh. Yeah.

[A]

So she doesn't know if her husband has his own email. I certainly know your email, Kevin. That's a weird thing.

[B]

That is a weird thing.

[A]

Couple of other things. So her brother dies in 2016 and he immediately starts spiraling to the point where she Vaguely describes it all as horrible and talks about a downward spiral.

[B]

And of course the murders were in early 2017.

[A]

People are always asking what's a stressor. I don't know if he was close with his brother in law or it prompted a change in behavior in Kathy Allen who was his safety person or whatever, but that seems pretty highly significant.

[B]

I agree.

[A]

All right, let's go on.

[B]

Let's get back to it. Uh huh.

[A]

I know he's got, you know, other stuff on his phone, but do you.

[B]

Know if he has like Yahoo or a Gmail address?

[A]

Oh, I don't.

[B]

You ever see him on Google when he's on the computer?

[A]

I don't watch him. He could be right. I don't know. I have my only email too.

[B]

Okay, what's yours?

[A]

Mine's redacted and he would not be able to tell you what mine is, so.

[B]

But both of you use the other one.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, that's kind of our combo one.

[B]

Do you remember who his doctors were?

[A]

Oh my gosh. He said some that retired and that.

[B]

Moved away just in the last say eight years or so.

[A]

Eight years.

[B]

Does he change that many in eight years?

[A]

Oh man. I would have a list at home. I don't have it with me.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm sorry. And he's got a new practitioner so I can't even tell you her name. It's like every time he gets somebody they leave or retire.

[B]

Seems to be normal anymore.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know driving back in 2017, I.

[A]

Would have had my gray car.

[B]

You would have been driving the.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Ford 500.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And we sometimes switched off with them depending on what we were doing. But that was my major car. That was mine.

[B]

What do you have now?

[A]

I have a Chrysler Pacifica van, 2022.

[B]

You like it?

[A]

I do, yeah. It's pretty smooth.

[B]

I van. I went to three.

[A]

I'm telling you what though, you can haul a lot of stuff in a van and I'm always antiquing and going to flower shops and stuff so.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, we loved it. Has this got the plugin to it or.

[A]

It does now. I don't like all the technology though. Yeah, it's just like, there's just, there's way too much and then you have to turn off the fuel saver if you don't want to use it because it will die at the light.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

Yeah. And if you don't turn that off, I'm like they should have made that option so that you could actually turn it off completely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But other Than that. I do love it. It's nice. It's easier to get into.

[B]

What. What's he driving?

[A]

He's driving the Focus.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, we still have that. Yeah, it's more economical, but I like my van.

[B]

So who are his close friends?

[A]

Close? He doesn't have any close friends.

[B]

Any friends that he. People he does chat with or communicate with on a regular basis?

[A]

I'm telling you, he's a hermit.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, he hates going out in public and he's afraid of big crowds. And, I mean, we have people we play pool with when we're there, but we don't hang out with anybody or he doesn't. I'm the social one, so, yeah, I have more friends than he probably ever would. Pause here for a second. Okay, so people are always asking, like, why is no one coming forward about Richard Allen? Because no one knows him. No one knows him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

This is his own wife saying he has no friends. The only people you can get accurate information from him are people he worked with, who we've talked to, and his family who won't talk to anyone who's not giving them a really, really sympathetic interview, who have not talked to us. So, yeah, he's. He's completely isolated to the point where it's somewhat unusual. I think describing someone as a hermit is pretty extreme. It's one thing to say I have, like one or two close friends that know me pretty well, but it's another thing to be like, no one knows him. He hates going out in public. He hates everybody.

[B]

Should we get back to it?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

When he would go out to the trails or go fishing, what would he normally wear?

[A]

Probably blue jeans. He doesn't wear sweatpants. And depending on the weather, a T shirt, tennis shoes.

[B]

On colder days, how would he dress? Would he. A hoodie or.

[A]

No, he didn't wear hoodies out. Huh. I mean, he's got some thicker jackets, so I assume probably a Carhartt.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Did he ever cover his mouth on, like, at all?

[A]

No. No.

[B]

No. Scarves?

[A]

Nope. No. A scarf? Are you kidding me? He barely wears a. Wears a ball cap.

[B]

Yeah. You wanna step out of the transcript for a minute?

[A]

So, Carhartt.

[B]

Why is that significant?

[A]

Because that. That's what the bridge guy would appear to be wearing, and that's what Richard Allen confirmed he was wearing when he was on the trails that day, which matches what bridge guy was wearing, and blue jeans as well. But beyond that, she's saying, oh, he wouldn't do all this stuff with scarves and Hats and all that thing. Well, I mean, I think someone would if they were doing something maybe a bit outside of their normal routine. Like going to rape and kill some people.

[B]

Yeah, that's a fair point.

[A]

Which is seemingly what Richard Allen was fully intending to do that day.

[B]

So should we get back to it?

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

If it's real cold out, he doesn't wear the face thing?

[A]

No, no, he would just freeze.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah, he's not going to wear anything on his face. Not unless you're riding a motorcycle, which we don't ride those anymore. We did that 25 years ago, back.

[B]

In 2017, that February 13 day. Did he ever text you on the day of that day while you were at work?

[A]

Oh my gosh, I don't remember.

[B]

Is that normal?

[A]

He texts me every day.

[B]

He does?

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Even when you're at work?

[A]

Even when I'm at work.

[B]

Do you remember that day? I know it was a long time ago, but do you remember that day? Like, him not texting you?

[A]

No, he texts me every day if I'm not with him. Okay, yeah, I'm sure he texted me, but I couldn't tell you for sure. I mean, we text each other when we're not together, right? So I would have been at work. He texts you, I love you a lot.

[B]

So you said he was sleeping when.

[A]

You got home that day, if I recall correctly. Yeah.

[B]

Was that normal for him?

[A]

Well, yeah, he sleeps a lot.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I just remember him sleeping. And then I saw the news come on and I said, those girls fell off that bridge.

[B]

You said that or he said that?

[A]

I did.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I knew they had to have.

[B]

When did you find out what actually happened?

[A]

Oh, gosh. When it came out on the news, I'm like, that was a horrible day here.

[B]

What was your thoughts or.

[A]

I felt awful for them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I have a daughter.

[B]

Did you talk to him about it or.

[A]

Oh, he knew how I felt. We both felt that way.

[B]

He say anything about it? Mm, mm.

[A]

No, other than he was out there. I mean, he was straight up with me about that. Then he told me what he encountered. Like, you didn't see those two girls anywhere? He says no, just that group of three. I thought for sure they tried to cross that damn bridge and I knew that that was not possible. I don't know how anybody can walk on that bridge.

[B]

You won't see me do it.

[A]

No, no. It's terrifying.

[B]

There have been several guys that walked across that bridge, so.

[A]

Oh, it's so scary. Like you want to jump 23ft across. Nope, there's nothing to hold you on there. And when we first started walking that it wasn't like that. And then it just got like every year things started falling apart.

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

And it's like, I'm not walking that anymore.

[B]

You said you guys walk or have walked across there, right?

[A]

Oh, it's been years ago. Oh yeah, we all did. We all tried it.

[B]

All right. When's the last time he walked across it? You remember?

[A]

Oh, heavens, I don't know. It was bad even then. So I can't see anybody wanting to walk across it. I mean, if you did, you were crazy.

[B]

Have you seen that picture?

[A]

Oh, God, a million times.

[B]

Let's jump out of here for a second. From context, I believe they're probably showing her the picture of bridge guy.

[A]

She's nervously laughing a lot, I think. I mean, we can't know the nature of these laughs, but there's a lot of laughter going on at this point.

[B]

It is not a very funny situation.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

So she's looking at a picture of bridge guy. Let's get back to it. Is that your husband?

[A]

No.

[B]

Could it be your husband?

[A]

No.

[B]

Why not?

[A]

Because he would never do anything like that.

[B]

Well, we're not talking about whether he would do it or not. We're just. That picture, would that be your husband?

[A]

That could be any male.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Anywhere, anytime.

[B]

I mean, those clothes or whatever, could that be your husband? Size wise, I mean.

[A]

Well, size wise, yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, sure, but what does he have in his head? That's what I've always been trying to figure out.

[B]

Okay, but facial. What you can see with the face there and stuff. That.

[A]

No, that nose looks huge. There's no way.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Nope.

[B]

So that couldn't be your husband.

[A]

No. Because what's the brown.

[B]

That could be an anomaly. That could be an anomaly with the picture.

[A]

Well, I have no idea because we've.

[B]

Got brown and purple back here.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So that could just be an anomaly with the picture. Sure it could be. I mean, it could be a lot of things, but. But not, you know, just taking the fact away from what actually happened out there. If you just saw that picture, would that, could that be your husband?

[A]

I'm sure there's a lot of people that say it could be somebody.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, that's not fair to say. He's short.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He's bad.

[B]

Yeah. I've never seen him, so.

[A]

Yeah, that would be. Wouldn't be a very fair thing to say though, because that's when you get all kinds of people Accusing you?

[B]

Yeah. Does your husband have any clothing that looks like that back in 2017?

[A]

Oh, he had jeans. I'm sure he has a coat. He's got blue coats.

[B]

He had blue coats?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does he have any black coats?

[A]

No.

[B]

Like, he's saying with the pictures. Like, to give you an example, I was looking for somebody one time in a car, and on the camera, it looked like it was white, but because of the lighting, it was actually red. So you can't always take on face value what you see there. What you see there has to be what it actually is.

[A]

I mean, I'm still trying to figure out if this is a hat or if this is hair, but he doesn't have anything like that. He didn't. Doesn't even have a brown hoodie.

[B]

Okay. What kind of. How long was his hair back then? Do you remember your husband's.

[A]

How long? Yeah, he's always had short hair.

[B]

Short hair.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[B]

Okay. Short like mine or he shaved it. Okay.

[A]

Since military.

[B]

All right.

[A]

I mean, he let it grow a little bit for our daughter's wedding.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

Yeah, but he's always had.

[B]

What branch?

[A]

Shaved hair.

[B]

What branch was he in?

[A]

National Guard.

[B]

National Guard. Army, yeah. Okay. When was that?

[A]

Oh, gosh, 91. Let's see. He started out in high school.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So probably eight years.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

89 is when he probably would have been enlisted in that a little before me. Yeah, just a little.

[B]

You say both of you have knives.

[A]

I just want to stop here for a second.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

What do you make of her reaction to the bridge guy photo, which, when you look at it, looks very similar.

[B]

To Richard Allen and wearing clothes which she just said he was. He was likely wearing that day, except for, I guess, for the hat and.

[A]

And was a person out there when he would have been out there.

[B]

I think it's interesting. She says it's absolutely not him, but when asked to explain why her argument is because he couldn't have done this, she's not basing. She's not looking at the picture in isolation and saying, this is him. This is not him. She's looking at the picture, saying, this is a picture of a killer. I don't want my husband to be a killer. Therefore the picture is not him.

[A]

Her reaction is incredibly suspicious to me.

[B]

Elaborate.

[A]

She's laughing. It's just. She's talking in circles. It can't be him. It can't be him. It can't be him. It's just very defensive. And this whole thing of, like, well, he doesn't wear Hats. First of all, you can't really tell what the guy has on his head. We don't really know. But second of all, like, it's possible for someone who normally doesn't wear hats to wear a hat or wear something concealing their face when they plan to do a crime. You know, most bank robbers don't walk around wearing ski masks in their daily lives. So it just seems she's very quick to just be very defensive.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And just not. Not. Not really, like, logical or reasonable. All right, let's go in.

[B]

Let's get back to it. You say both of you have knives. What kind of knives do you have with your.

[A]

Oh, gosh, just pocket knives.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Small folding.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Do they have serrated edges on them, or are they just a smooth edge or.

[A]

Mine doesn't have serrated edges. I don't know what he has on his.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I never open it because I can never get them closed. But it's just, like, a little pocket knife.

[B]

Okay. Small, Big.

[A]

He's a couple of small ones. He doesn't have any big ones.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That I know of.

[B]

Like, pocket. Like this or.

[A]

No, no, I've not seen one that size.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

His is a lot smaller.

[B]

Mine's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A little smaller than that, but not.

[A]

Oh, no, it's nothing like that. I haven't seen one that big.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He's got a little tiny one that you have to, like, unfold and has scissors in it.

[B]

Okay. Kind of a Swiss army knife type.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Do you have any knives that are missing since 2017 at all?

[A]

No.

[B]

And the firearms that he has?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Does he usually carry them? Like, some people won't keep around in a chamber, and some people do. Do you know how he loads them?

[A]

I think there's one in the chamber at all times. Yeah.

[B]

Chamber. Okay.

[A]

Yeah. It's on safety.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

And that's why I'm afraid to use mine, because I'm like, I don't feel comfortable, but he always wants me to have it.

[B]

So let's stop there for a second. She's conceding that he keeps around in his gun, which makes it easier for us to understand how an unspent cartridge from his gun could have ended up at the crime scene at which he murdered the girls.

[A]

If he. If he keeps racking it and something's in the chamber, then it can.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Eject. So, yeah. If it was a situation where like. No, he never has anything in the chamber. What are you talking about? That's crazy. Then, you know, that would be A point in his favor, but, you know, not a lot of points in his favor in this interview. I guess the big one is he doesn't normally wear hats. As far as his wife, who seems to be living a completely separate life from him despite being incredibly enmeshed, is concerned.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They seem like such strangers to each other when you read this, or at least that's what she's portraying. But they also seem to be, like, very much intertwined. It's odd.

[B]

It's odd.

[A]

You don't really get a sense of emotional closeness.

[B]

No, but there's something performative because he's always sending her texts that he loves her. This doesn't really seem to be much of a connection.

[A]

Seems like she's very into performative stuff, which I think is why she really liked Allen's defense team and believed that they could get him an acquittal.

[B]

Right. I think we're ready when we get back to it for you to start with. That's why you're afraid to use yours. Let's get. Let's get back to it.

[A]

Where am I? Okay. I. Can you scroll over it? Oh, I see. And that's why I'm afraid to use mine, because I don't feel comfortable. But he always wants me to have it.

[B]

Do you know where the safety is, the mechanism on it?

[A]

On the. On mine? It's like a red dot, right? Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But like I said, I don't even handle it. It's in my drawer and it stays there.

[B]

Have you seen the other one like your husband has?

[A]

I don't know what it looks like. I know it's black.

[B]

Black.

[A]

It has the magazine like mine.

[B]

Okay. But you. You don't know what brand?

[A]

No, I don't.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I'm sorry.

[B]

When he carries it, how does he normally carry it?

[A]

On the outside.

[B]

Okay. Holster.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Mm. I do know that. I don't even think I have a holster for mine.

[B]

How do you carry yours?

[A]

I don't. If I do, I stick it in my purse. But then it's like, okay, now what do I do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, because one time we had some creepy people sitting out here in the parking lot, and I'm like, if I'm going to go out in the dark, I know how to flip the safety off so I can at least do that. But I haven't carried it in my purse for years. I only did it like twice. Yeah.

[B]

Was he right or left handed?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Right hand?

[A]

Right.

[B]

Does he carry it right side? Does he carry it cross?

[A]

Does he I don't know. I don't even. I would assume he'd do right, but I don't really pay much attention to that.

[B]

Has your husband ever had any kind of, like, violent outbursts or temper problems, anger problems, medications.

[A]

He did struggle with that.

[B]

What would he do? Like, what would happen?

[A]

It was mainly if he was drinking. Well, he'd just get mouthy. I mean, he wouldn't hurt me.

[B]

I want to stop here for a second because there's a number of things come to mind when his medication is not working. He has violent outbursts or temper problems. And she acknowledges his temper often. His medication often doesn't work. She's also saying here, guess what? When he does have these violent outbursts, it's triggered when he drinks alcohol. And by his own admission, on the morning of the murders or the afternoon of the murders, just prior to the murders, he consumed several cans of beer. So everything she's telling us fits into the picture we already have. And it just lends more and more credence and more and more weight to the fact that her husband viciously murdered these two girls.

[A]

I like how she wants to emphasize he wouldn't hurt her. Yeah, that's not really what he's accused of doing in this situation. He's kind of accused of murdering two strangers. So, you know, just the giggling, the something really wrong here. This. This whole interview just really, like, it sits really wrong.

[B]

Let's get back to it. You just said that he. He gets mouthy. I'm going to pick up right underneath that.

[A]

Also, another word for mouthy is emotionally abusive.

[B]

Yes. Back to it. Yeah.

[A]

He'd never try to hurt me.

[B]

Ever throw anything or punch anything?

[A]

No, never threw anything.

[B]

Break anything.

[A]

If he did punch anything, it would be outside in the garage.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But I never seen anything broken open, like holes in the walls or anything, so.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

And if that was the case, I didn't even know he did it. But he'd come in with knuckles sometimes.

[B]

Huh?

[A]

Let's just stop there for a second. I'm sorry. So. So he's been punching stuff in the garage to let out his anger.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

So she's saying he never physically abused her. But if someone's going and punching a bunch of stuff in the garage out of anger, you know, that's. I mean, that's a pretty. That's a pretty big red flag, in my opinion. I mean, what. What do you think?

[B]

Yeah, especially if it's something that happens regularly.

[A]

I mean, like, am I crazy or is that. I mean, I don't know, that's a. If there's a situation where someone is. Is, you know, punching stuff in an effort to intimidate or control others, it's. It's. It's. It's possibly an unsafe situation. It's not a healthy coping mechanism. And also it's self harm because if you're just punching walls, I would imagine if his knuckles are coming in injured, then he's hurting himself. So she bl. She. She kind of. I didn't even know about it. Well, Kathy, it seems like there's a lot of stuff like you don't know about. Like a lot of things.

[B]

Should we get back to it?

[A]

Let's do that.

[B]

Has he ever had any run ins with the law or any run ins? Yeah.

[A]

No.

[B]

No issues? No.

[A]

No. He did try to kill himself.

[B]

When was that?

[A]

That's been probably three years ago.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Actually acted like he would. I don't know that he ever would, but he had the gun in his mouth. So I called 911 on him and got him committed for like six months to Sycamore. And of course, this was all in the period of trying to get him his medicine changed and done. And that was probably three years ago. Two or three years ago.

[B]

Anything lead up to that? I mean, did he argue with you before he decided to do that?

[A]

And that was drinking.

[B]

Okay. He was drinking at the time?

[A]

He was drinking? Yes.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No conversations with anybody else? No. When they.

[A]

Just me and him that day.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yep. He tends to get too sassy when he's drinking. A lot of people do.

[B]

It can change people.

[A]

It's bad. Okay, let's just.

[B]

Okay, let's step out.

[A]

Jesus Christ. I mean. Okay.

[B]

And he was drinking on the. Right before the murders?

[A]

Yeah. He got a little sassy that day, I guess. I mean, like the. The amount of like euphemisms and downplaying of this behavior is it just classic enabling? Classic enabler. And he's drinking and. And I didn't realize this. You know, you would think something where someone sticks a gun in their mouth and is like threatening to blow their head off in front of their family, you would think that would have been precipitated by like some kind of conflict.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Turns out today he's just drinking and he just does it. So now we know that, like, it was just. I mean, and she's like just acting like this is. Getting your husband committed for six months to Sycamore after he threatens suicide in front of you is just a normal thing.

[B]

That's a pretty big Deal.

[A]

Big D. I don't know anybody where that's happened. This is not, and I'm not saying this, listen, people need help. And if they're suicidal, I'm not trying to stigmatize that. It's good to get them help. It's good to get them committed and get the help they need. But in this case. But it's a big deal in your life and should be treated as such. And she's just acting like it's an average Tuesday or like a little quarrel they had before work. I mean, it's insane. Like, her level of denial here is just off the charts. Let's. Let's keep going sassy when he's drinking. Sassy. Sassy and mouthy and all of that. Or he starts fantasizing about how bad his life is, Kathy. And how he wants to rape somebody in order to maintain some power for himself.

[B]

Let's get back to it. I'm surprised they let him drink while he was taking the meds.

[A]

They don't let you drink.

[B]

He's not supposed to be drinking then, right? No, no, I was going to say. I was going to say no. Normally they don't.

[A]

But no, he wasn't supposed to be. No. They tell you that.

[B]

Yeah. But after that day, did he ever change his. Like he normally would dress?

[A]

No. Nope.

[B]

Still dressed the same.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Do you still have. Do you know if he still has those jackets, like the Carhartts and stuff of the house there?

[A]

Oh, gosh. Well, I know he has the blue Carhartt. Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

He's got a blue one, but I don't remember. I think that was the one we got at Great Lakes when we went to Mackinac, like a couple years ago.

[B]

He got Mackinac. What. What's that?

[A]

Mackinac island up north.

[B]

Oh. Oh, yeah. Okay, I gotcha.

[A]

Yeah, he's got one a couple years ago from that. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. I think let's. Let's step outside of this for a moment. I think we'll go ahead and read this next part. But I think they're referring to some sounds in the background, which I'm guessing are some animals who are unhappy with.

[A]

I've had to listen to this stuff. No, I mean about being in the vet. I do want to say I'd be curious. He talks about. She talks about getting this Mac and this Mackinac Island Carhartt. I'd be curious if that was before 2017, because I've always wondered if after murdering the girls, he surreptitiously Replaced his blue Carhartt. And God knows it sounds like you could do just about anything in Kathy Allen's household without her having any freaking clue about it.

[B]

So, yeah, she tries to say it was just a couple of years ago, which would have been after 2017, but that could also be an attempt by her to cover.

[A]

Well, what I'm saying is that if he had a Carhartt in 2017, he might have gotten rid of that and then replaced it. Yeah, I hear you afterwards, but again, I think. I think you could probably set her house on fire and she would be unaware of it like that. Like, this woman does not know what's going on in her life.

[B]

Right. So again, we're going to read this next part, and our speculation is that this is referring to some noises being made by some unhappy pets at the vet who are receiving some kind of care that the animals don't understand and don't appreciate.

[A]

Well, I want to be sedated after reading this thing, so let's go get back to it.

[B]

Okay. Somebody doesn't sound happy.

[A]

Well, when they're in surgery and they're waking up, they're coming out of sedation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they're sad. They don't feel good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For a. Wait. Go ahead.

[B]

For a while, I was thinking it was some little kid I know somewhere. No, I was thinking there was some kid making the noise, and I'm like, no, no, that's a dog.

[A]

It's all the doggies. They're upset. That does sound pitiful, doesn't it?

[B]

Yeah. I thought it was a kid for a while yesterday.

[A]

It sounded like a bird.

[B]

Okay. I'm just stepping out for a moment from the transcript because there's actually, at this point, several pages missing that say, quote, excluded from public access, per rules on access to court records.

[A]

I would be so curious what they're talking about here.

[B]

All right, when we get back to it, which we will in a second, Kathy will be answering your question. So let's get back to it.

[A]

Yeah, my. Well, my dad was having the heart failure and my brother was killed on a motorcycle.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I lost my friend Kim last year.

[B]

He didn't. He didn't have anything else, though, that really.

[A]

Not him. No.

[B]

Affected him and.

[A]

No. But I think affected him.

[B]

Yeah. Well, if you're close, it would.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But nothing. Nothing is past that would have affected his depression or anything that.

[A]

I mean, just life in general for him.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I mean, just every day, getting up every day, that's a struggle in itself. I can't speak for him, how he feels, but I can see it.

[B]

I mean, yeah, he doesn't talk about it then. He just.

[A]

He tries to more because he didn't used to. And you, like, you hold on that. And it's going to get worse. And he's just depressed all the time. I mean, it's. He's not like he used to be. He's better now, but.

[B]

So he's kind of a constant.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

It's not. It's not.

[A]

It's not. It's. It's not.

[B]

Where something situational like mine. We'll set it off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Things set me off pretty quick.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

When it comes to, you know, the kind. That kind of thing. But I can get through the day. You know, he just has trouble even getting through days for years. Pause for a second. Okay, so this is something. So it sounds like Kathy Allen was going through a number of personal tragedies at some point. Certainly her brother in 2016.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, and other personal tragedies. If Richard Allen, being the emotional vampire that he is, is someone who just gets his life force from his wife, Kathy, and has just sort of relied on her to, you know, clean up his messes emotionally for years. And she's distracted, understandably, because she is grieving. A brother, possibly other people she loved, but certainly a brother in 2016. And that throws off little Ricky's balance and he's not getting the attention that he so desperately needs to live. That seems like a pretty good trigger for what happened in early 2017. I'm just saying.

[B]

Let's get back to it. So he told you that he was on the trail that day, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Okay. Do you remember when he told you that?

[A]

I think the news came on. And then he's like, well, I was out there. And I was like, you were? Because I was like, well, that's just great. Anybody that's walked out there is probably going to get talked to.

[B]

Did he ever say that law enforcement talked to him after that?

[A]

He did, yeah.

[B]

Okay. Did they. Did he go to them or did they come to him?

[A]

I actually think they met him at Save A Lot.

[B]

Save A Lot.

[A]

That's what he told me, is that they met him.

[B]

And the.

[A]

Because I said, you've got to go say something.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you were out there, you've got to go tell them that you were out there. So he said he met them at the Save A Lot and took his phone and looked at it, and that's the last he ever said about it.

[B]

So did he say who met him out there?

[A]

No, I don't recall that.

[B]

Save the Lot is out here in Delphi.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you guys have any dogs?

[A]

Not here.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

We did when we lived in Mexico.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

But we lost too many, so we kind of got away from that. Pause. So these people had a history of dogs mysteriously disappearing? Just weird.

[B]

It could just be. It's very sad when you lose a pet. Maybe it just dogs dying of natural causes. I don't. I don't know.

[A]

It's not clear if they are physically losing them or if they're losing them as if they're dying. But I do want to say one thing that's kind of weird. The level of entitlement with just like, ugh, law enforcement is going to talk to us. You know, like. Like, on the one hand, it kind of goes against what she was initially. She's saying, you need to go talk to the police. You need to do the civically responsible thing and tell them that you were there and what. You know, that makes sense. I think a lot of people would encourage their spouses to do that if they hear about something on the news like this, Especially something that initially did not appear to be foul play.

[B]

Yes, sir.

[A]

But then what she's saying to police now is just like, ugh. My reaction is, oh, no. Like, we're gonna have to be talked to by police because of this. It just. It's just odd. She's talking out of both sides of her mouth on that subject, at least.

[B]

Let's get back to it. But you've got cats.

[A]

Yeah, we do have.

[B]

Any other animals?

[A]

Nope. The birds outside, I guess.

[B]

Did he ever mention to you that day anything that was strange to him that he saw? Cars, people? Anything?

[A]

The people that I mentioned earlier?

[B]

The girls.

[A]

The girls, huh?

[B]

Anybody besides the girls?

[A]

No. Because I asked him, I said, was any. Was there anybody else out there? And he's like, just those girls. I'm like, okay, what were they doing?

[B]

Huh?

[A]

I don't know if it was passing, but he just made it sound like it was not, you know, it wasn't like him to bring up something like that, you know? Well, I saw these weird girls out there. I'm like, okay. Weird as in how? I didn't get any more detail than that.

[B]

He didn't elaborate on that, though?

[A]

No.

[B]

He didn't know who the girls were?

[A]

No.

[B]

And he wouldn't have gone out there to meet anybody or not.

[A]

Shouldn't have. Not unless it would have been somebody new.

[B]

Yeah. I was going to say but he's very friends or no, nobody. He would know that he was supposed to go meet.

[A]

No, no, he wasn't like that. He wouldn't just go meet somebody like that, you know?

[B]

Uh huh.

[A]

He would tell me if he was going to meet somebody because we kind of keep track of each other in that way because we're always afraid something was about going to happen to somebody. Tell him, I'm going to Lafayette just so he knows I'll be in Lafayette. You just never know anymore.

[B]

Did you guys have any marital issues back in 2017? No. You were good then.

[A]

We have a good relationship.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But it's been hard, you know, to help. Trying to help him get through things with his own mind. But there are some things you can't help, so. And I'm there. I'm very supportive.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Going to make me start crying again. Stop.

[B]

I was going to say he's getting louder. Let's stop there. This again seems to be a reference to some animal.

[A]

She says, why did you cut me open? I believe that is the reference to the animal. Although in this context it's certainly a disturbing thing to say.

[B]

But let's get back to it. I was going to say he's getting louder. I know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's not happy.

[A]

Why did you cut me open?

[B]

Yeah, back. But did he have any people he would talk to when he was at Chrysler or continue talking to afterwards?

[A]

I don't know that he had anybody to talk to at Chrysler. I don't know.

[B]

Okay. I truthfully don't where he parked that day. Did he mention any other vehicles being there?

[A]

No.

[B]

Did you ever ask him?

[A]

No. No. Because I wouldn't really think to.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, I don't care if he's.

[B]

Parked there when you guys go to the trails or when he would go to the trail. Were there certain days of the week he would go?

[A]

No, just whenever.

[B]

Random.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Depends on the weather. I mean, if it's too hot, you're not going to go on the trails, but. Yeah, no, just depending on. And if he had time to work in half an hour. Half an hour walk. We just usually go up and down once, so it was a good half an hour. We went to the Sunset Point a lot too. I like that one better. It's prettier. Not as pretty now, but I like that one better.

[B]

Did you guys ever travel to like different parks or whatever?

[A]

No.

[B]

To go to different trails?

[A]

No.

[B]

Different sites?

[A]

I'd like him to, but he doesn't want to leave the house.

[B]

So Sunset Points the one out on old 25, right?

[A]

Well, it's Pizza Hut.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know where Pizza Hut is? Yeah.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah. Old 25. I guess there's an entrance there.

[B]

I was thinking there was one.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Off that park they built out there.

[A]

There's a swinging bridge that connects it to that, right? Yeah. I don't know what that one's called. That one might be trailhead or it's. It's one of those.

[B]

Other than that one time where you caught him trying to harm himself, was there any other times like that? No, no, just that one time. Single time?

[A]

Yeah. Because I think that's when I called and had someone show up. And you learned real quick that. I'm serious.

[B]

What was like. You remember what time frame that was? What month it was?

[A]

What month?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, God. No.

[B]

Was it. Was it winter? Summer?

[A]

It might have been a little chilly because I know. I remember him throwing the gun on the couch and running out the door, and I'm like, too late. They're coming.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sorry. You shouldn't have done it. Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what?

[A]

Oh, my God. Can I just say, you don't remember when your husband tried to kill himself in front of you and it's all big giggle fest about that and then.

[B]

Ended up being committed for six months?

[A]

Little Ricky went a little crazy. Oh, you're gonna have some consequences. This is a bizarre relationship that these people have.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's chilling. It's chilling to hear her talk about her relationship with her husband and, like, oh, she's so supportive, you know? I mean, like, just. That's not support.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's burying your head in your. The sand.

[B]

Let's get back to it. Do you know what? Like, what?

[A]

He was. He had been drinking.

[B]

Drinking.

[A]

He had way too much. And he. He's one of. He's not a happy person when he gets drunk.

[B]

Was there anything else going on like that? I don't think that time or that time frame.

[A]

I don't recall.

[B]

I get it. Drinking, but usually a trigger or some type that.

[A]

I don't recall.

[B]

You do that?

[A]

I don't recall.

[B]

Did he say anything to you ever, why he did that?

[A]

No, other than he was just being stupid.

[B]

I hope he's friendly. When we open that door.

[A]

Open this door.

[B]

Let me just step out again. This is probably a reference to an animal making noises, I'm guessing.

[A]

I'm trying to only laugh when it says chuckle on her part, but the fact that she's, like, laughing about him being, like, seeing someone almost kill Themselves that you love in front of you. It just, the reaction to this is very blase and bizarre to me. And also it's weird that she then just repetitively keeps saying, I don't recall when asked about any triggering incidents around there that I find so suspicious.

[B]

I would think if you had a gun in your mouth and ended up being institutionalized for six months and I had to call police to save your.

[A]

Life, exactly how that day went.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And what you may have said or what I may have said leading up to that incident, because that's a pretty traumatic situation.

[B]

Let's finish this up. I can't think of anything else right now. We appreciate you talking to us.

[A]

Okay, sure. Yeah.

[B]

No problem giving us this information. We just need to follow up.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And find out, like I say, going back through some of the stuff that he admitted being out there, and we're just trying to understand, you know, find out what all, you know, if you remember anything he talked about, anything he said.

[A]

I wish I could remember if there was any more detail, I really do, but I just, I can't. It's hard for me to think of yesterday.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to go ahead and conclude this interview. It's approximately 11:31am and that's it.

[A]

Yep. Okay. What do you think about this? It's not really any, like, new bombshell bombshell information, but it's interesting to me. What do you. What are your takeaways from this conversation?

[B]

Basically, what we said during the course of it, I, I think the, the image, the picture she paints of her husband is the picture of the man who killed those girls.

[A]

Oh, 100%.

[B]

And there's been a lot of the Richard Allen fans have tried to argue that all this alleged bad stuff, all these alleged terrible things that fit in with this picture, it just came from the police or came from whoever. No, in this case, it's coming from his wife, who presumably knows him better than anyone.

[A]

Yeah. People often ask us, how could Kathy Allen not know that her husband was bridge guy? And having read this, I have some thoughts on this. My traditional stock answer has always been, well, we don't know, and we've never talked to her, and we don't know exactly what she knew and when she knew it. And, you know, it's possible that denial is a hell of a thing. Her level of defensiveness and giggling and bizarre behavior and bizarre statements, frankly, throughout this interview makes me think that we're asking the wrong question. You know, it's not, you know, it's basically like how could she not have known? It's basically like this is someone who is either delusional, completely self deluded, as in, she knows that he did it, but she just can't bring herself to accept that or touch that. So she has to be in some level of denial or did not want to disrupt her own life or is uncommonly stupid. So there's two options. It's, it's stupid or self denying. There's no innocent. The only innocence is through stupidity. It's through like, just, like, just childlike naivete, which, frankly, I have no reason to think that this is a stupid woman or a childlike woman, or a woman who could be easily manipulated. If people bring that to my attention, then fine, we'll look at that. But I, I think, I think on some level she knew. I think the person doing this interview on some level knew. Maybe that was, maybe that was submerged within her, her own psyche. Maybe that was something that she was not admitting to herself. Listen, I get that I'm. I mean, like, addicts can tell themselves that they're fine, right? And that everything's fine and that they don't have a problem, that they can get control of their drinking any minute. But I, I think on some level she knew. She's so defensive. It's not in a way that's like, oh, wait, you think he could be involved? That's crazy. It just didn't like, oh, no, that's not him. I know that's not him because I know he can't be a killer. It's like, no, ma', am, we're asking you, like, this is a guy who's wearing the same clothing that your guy would have been wearing and is in the same location and then is also admitting to you that the fact that he was like, smearing those girls. I feel like, you know, he was worried that they would pick him out of some lineup and he wanted to make it out like they had a grudge against him. Like he's, he was, he was. Richard Allen was trying to get ahead of all of this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And this woman knew that. And so I, I find her just a very perplexing figure. And I don't know, maybe eventually she can move away from this and just kind of disavow him. That would be the healthiest.

[B]

I think it would be better for her to move on with her life. It sounds like a lot of her time and energy has been spent managing him, trying to take care of him, trying to deal with his bizarre behavior, trying to help him through his mental health crises, and she didn't do a good job and doing all this, well aware that his medication, it's very bad for him when he drinks, but knowing that he still drinks anyway, like, he's not her responsibility.

[A]

He's an adult. But, like, if we want to look at it from, like, she thinks. I mean, she clearly thought she was doing a great job with this. She thought she was like, yeah, I'm managing him. I'm. I'm supportive to him. Yeah, you did a crap job. He killed two people.

[B]

But this has been a big part of her life as an adult.

[A]

It's her identity as a caretaker.

[B]

So she deserves to move on and have a relationship with someone who is a mature adult, an adult who doesn't need this level of care and who's not violent or suicidal or what have you.

[A]

Personally, with. With this revelation, though, I'm gonna say this for the first time. Like, I've gone from looking after reading this and after knowing what we know, from just reporting on this, I've gone from looking at her as an additional victim to something else.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, that for us was the biggest revelation in these documents and the one that we think matters. And I guess now we'll just be waiting for the appeal to come out.

[B]

She. She deserves to be with someone who's not a violent, abusive monster.

[A]

Well, she says he didn't abuse her.

[B]

But he was mouthy, he was sassy.

[A]

He was just a little sassy when he drank, when he. Which wasn't supposed to be doing. And, you know, she just needed to casually commit him for six months. What wife hasn'? I mean, it's. It's just, again, stupid or nos on some level.

[B]

And I tend to imagine what it would be like to see your spouse with a gun in their mouth.

[A]

No, I can't. And then I can't imagine acting like it's just like, oh, we got into a little argument afterwards.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The way she describes it, you think he was like, kathy, I don't feel supported. Oh, no, I support you. How dare you. Like, you think it was just a normal couple conversation or, or. Or just like a. Oh, no, he got a fender bender or something. Or he got a little too much drink. Much to drink. And then he got sad and said, oh, I don't really like my life. No, he's literally threatening to kill himself, which is highly manipulative behavior and highly disturbing behavior. Not something you quickly forget. But she seems to forget just about everything. I guess it's just the COVID Brain fog. Right. Like I, again, I, I, I've consistently said on this show that I've always felt that she was an additional victim in the situation. And I look at things a lot differently now because the level of defensiveness, what she's saying, what she, what she's conveniently forgetting, all make me highly suspicious. And again, the question we get is how could she not have known? And maybe the question isn't that, Maybe the question is why did she say nothing? Why did she never follow up? You know what, when we're talking about this isn't offend, this isn't like a, this isn't a shoplifting charge. This isn't a, like small incident where he did some traffic damage and then left the scene. This is murder. He killed two girls because he was sexually motivated. Because he's a pervert. Okay. And you know, she said nothing and it sounds like she knew enough to piece things together.

[B]

So is that it?

[A]

Yep. Thanks for listening.

[B]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[A]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[A]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.

[B]

That's why we trust our long term sponsor, Simplisafe. Simplisafe is a home security system that's both innovative and proactive. They're not just about sounding the alarm when someone breaks through your front door. They seek to prevent the break in from even happening. We've used them for years. The reason is the peace of mind they give us every day right now. Murder Sheet listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system just go to simplisafe.com msheet SimpliSafe deploys so many.

[A]

Technologies and techniques to keep you safe. I'm talking about AI powered cameras. Not to mention they're always looking out for you. Professional monitoring agents are on hand to intervene in real time. They'll switch on the two way audio to confront possible prowlers and start blaring sirens and spotlights to get rid of them.

[B]

Simplisafe is great for renters and homeowners alike. You can customize your approach to home security. They've got lots of different options, but one constant is that you don't need to sign a long term contract. Between that and your 60 day money back guarantee, it's a cinch. Try out SimpliSafe today.

[A]

Right now my listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe.