The Delphi Murders: Motion to Correct Errors

Summary

Episode Summary: Murder Sheet - The Delphi Murders: Motion to Correct Errors

Release Date: January 22, 2025

In this episode of the Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into recent developments in the high-profile Delphi murders case, focusing on the defense team's latest legal maneuver—a motion to correct errors filed by Richard Allen's legal representatives. This detailed analysis provides listeners with an in-depth understanding of the case's complexities, the defense's strategies, and the hosts' critical perspectives on the proceedings.

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1. Introduction to the Motion to Correct Errors

The episode opens with Áine Cain notifying listeners about new developments in the Delphi case—specifically, the defense team's filing of a motion to correct errors. This legal move typically signifies that the defense seeks to address and rectify perceived mistakes made during the trial, potentially impacting the trial's outcome upon appellate review.

Notable Quote:

Kevin Greenlee [01:54]: "A motion to correct errors is a request from trial attorneys asking the judge to fix perceived errors in the trial."

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2. Skepticism Toward the Defense Team

Both hosts express strong skepticism regarding the defense team's credibility, emphasizing a history of misleading filings and questionable strategies. They caution listeners to view the latest motion with a wary eye, given the defense's propensity to omit key facts and rely heavily on non-traditional platforms like YouTube.

Notable Quotes:

Kevin Greenlee [03:35]: "If you have followed this case for any length of time, you have been taught by Richard Allen's defense team to view anything they say with extreme skepticism."

Áine Cain [04:17]: "We're past boy who cried wolf at this point... We're coming into this with some skepticism."

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3. Critique of Defense Team's Preparedness and Strategy

Áine and Kevin critique the defense team's handling of the case, highlighting perceived inadequacies in preparation and understanding of the legal intricacies. They argue that the defense's approach undermines the seriousness of the case and detracts from a factual, evidence-based defense strategy.

Notable Quotes:

Kevin Greenlee [04:45]: "I was stunned by the lack of preparation by this defense team."

Áine Cain [06:26]: "I don't feel like they ever really got to know the case in the level of depth that they needed to."

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4. Analysis of Specific Claims in the Motion

a. Attorney Representation Concerns

The hosts dissect the defense's claim that Richard Allen had previous legal representation from an attorney named Mr. Gibson. They highlight inconsistencies, such as the absence of official filings confirming Mr. Gibson's role and Richard Allen's own statements requesting new representation.

Notable Quotes:

Kevin Greenlee [11:12]: "Mr. Gibson was contacted by Kathy Allen and paid $5,000... But Mr. Gibson is not present."

Áine Cain [14:44]: "They twist it into something incredibly self-serving."

b. Ron Logan and Odinism Allegations

Áine provides background on Ron Logan, an individual previously scrutinized in the case, and criticizes the defense's shifting allegations from Odinism to Logan's involvement. They argue that these claims lack credible evidence and detract from the core issues of the case.

Notable Quotes:

Áine Cain [32:07]: "Ron Logan was far from a perfect man, but it is not fair to him or to his family to accuse him of murder because there is no evidence connecting him to these crimes."

Kevin Greenlee [34:19]: "The girls were not killed by Odinis. They were killed by Richard Allen."

c. Phone Data and Headphone Jack Theory

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the defense's claim regarding anomalies in the victims' phone data, specifically the headphone jack's behavior. Áine and Kevin debunk the defense's expert testimony, asserting that environmental factors like moisture likely caused the observed issues, rather than any deliberate tampering by the perpetrator.

Notable Quotes:

Kevin Greenlee [40:37]: "Why would we imagine that the killer would return in the middle of the night and somehow access the phone... That's ludicrous."

Áine Cain [44:29]: "This type of evidence is dumb, no matter who's using it."

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5. Evaluation of Defense Team's Public Strategies

The hosts scrutinize the defense team's use of social media and online platforms to disseminate their arguments and engage with conspiracy theorists. They argue that such strategies undermine the professionalism expected in legal defenses and instead cater to an uncritical online audience.

Notable Quotes:

Áine Cain [08:17]: "Why are they acting as camp counselors for the stupidest people on the Internet?"

Kevin Greenlee [47:20]: "These people flattered them so hard that now they're just desperate to keep that serotonin and good vibes going with all the little compliments about how they're the second coming of Clarence Darrow."

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6. Conclusion and Forward Look

Áine and Kevin conclude the episode by lamenting the defense team's departure from traditional legal strategies in favor of sensationalism. They anticipate that the motion to correct errors will not significantly alter the case's outcome and remain confident in Richard Allen's conviction based on the evidence presented during the trial.

Notable Quotes:

Kevin Greenlee [46:59]: "They played it remarkably poorly, but it was a vigorous defense. I don't think there's an ineffective counsel claim."

Áine Cain [47:52]: "It's appalling. It's embarrassing. I feel secondhand embarrassment when I read some of this stuff."

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Key Takeaways

• Defense Team's Credibility: The Murder Sheet hosts maintain a highly critical stance toward Richard Allen's defense team, citing a lack of preparation and reliance on unprofessional tactics.

• Motion to Correct Errors: The defense's recent legal filing is dissected, revealing significant skepticism about its validity and implications.

• Shift in Defense Strategies: The episode highlights the defense team's inconsistent allegations, moving from claims about Odinism to implicating Ron Logan without substantial evidence.

• Reliability of Evidence: Áine and Kevin argue against the defense's interpretations of technical evidence, stressing environmental factors over intentional tampering.

• Professionalism in Legal Defense: The hosts emphasize the importance of maintaining professionalism and factual integrity in legal defenses, criticizing the defense team's online strategies as detrimental to the case's credibility.

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This comprehensive analysis offers listeners a nuanced perspective on the ongoing legal battles in the Delphi murders case, underscoring the complexities and challenges inherent in high-profile criminal prosecutions.

Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

Episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls so today is January 21, 2025, and a number of things just came out in the Delphi case around the motion to correct errors from Richard Allen's team.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, basically a motion to correct errors is a request from usually trial attorneys. They're asking the judge who presided at the trial to fix perceived errors in the trial. The next step would be appellate attorneys would ask an appellate court to review these perceived errors and rule on them so they file their motion to correct errors. So it's basically a list of things that they think were unfair or inaccurate. And they also supplied some alleged evidence of this. And we will get to all of this in just a moment.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain, I'm a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Anya Cain]

I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

The Delphi Murders Motion to Correct Errors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well Anya, I'd like to start by making what might be an obvious point, which is that if you have followed this case for any length of time. You have been taught by Richard Allen's defense team to view anything they say or file with extreme skepticism. They have a propensity for making filings that are at best misleading or leave out key facts. And so because of that, because of our training in this, because of the training we've all had in this, I think in our discussion of this filing they did earlier today, it is very important that we be skeptical and view it with a wary eye.

[Anya Cain]

I think that context, context is actually super important in this case. I think in other cases, with other attorney teams, I, I might feel differently about some of these things. But we are, we are well past boy who cried wolf at this point. And I, I'm just, you know, I don't feel we do any. We're not, we're not reporting on this responsibly if we're just nor, you know, treating it like some sort of neutral thing, because it's frankly not. There have been so many things that they have claimed that have turned out to be utter balderdash. And. Yeah, so, I mean, we're coming into this with some skepticism, but we're gonna talk about this, take it, you know, with as much seriousness as we feel it deserves.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think before we get into the meat of this, I want to mention something that occurred to me over and over again as I read this, which is most, if not all of this alleged new evidence was stuff that was in the hands of the defense attorneys during the tr. So the fact that they had what they perceive to be relevant information, which they did not introduce during the trial, seems to me to be an indictment of their efforts on this case.

[Anya Cain]

It raises, I mean, I guess it raises to mind two possibilities for me. And again, this is not the appellate team, as Kevin mentioned up top. This is the trial team. So this is Andrew Baldwin, Bradley, Rosie, Jennifer, O.J. i mean, you even see familiar names like their investigator Matt Hoffman in here. So this is a situation where they're doing this. And what I wonder is, okay, so you have two possibilities. Either for some reason they sat on all of this, which doesn't make any sense, when you could have brought it out at trial if it was. If it's what they say that it is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, also, if you knowingly sit on something, you can't really file about it later.

[Anya Cain]

Well, well, that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's a non starter.

[Anya Cain]

So that does. Okay, well, that. Then throwing that out. So they just didn't know their own discovery well enough that this came as A surprise later on. How does that even happen?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Which, again, is, in my view, an indictment of their efforts on this case. Another indictment.

[Anya Cain]

I don't feel like they ever knew the case. I'm just gonna say this. I don't feel like they ever really got to know the case in the level of depth that they needed to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, you and I sat through every day of this trial, and as I think we probably mentioned on the podcast on a pretty regular basis, I was stunned by the lack of preparation by this defense team.

[Anya Cain]

You ever watch this? If everyone who's ever been to school, you've probably seen someone, you know, go through a presentation in front of the class, and you can tell they didn't do the reading. They don't know what they're. They didn't read the book, but they're doing their book report, and they're trying. And they're, you know, throwing up their hands and trying to sound like an orator, but it doesn't mean that you read the book. And that's always the vibe I've gotten from them as these hearings have gone on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And another thing, before we get into the meat of it, is we see more stuff here in this filing that confirms the close ties between this Defense Team and YouTubers. Not only close ties behind the scene, but in terms of efforts to court YouTubers. They actually posted some of the video exhibits or evidence in this case on YouTube. And to me, that just completely gives the game away. They are not filing this for Judge Gold to review her alleged perceived errors. They are filing it as a way to rally their Crank audience on YouTube. Serious attorneys who file documents like this do not post links to their evidence on YouTube. That's not for the benefit of Judge Gold. That's not for the benefit of the other attorneys in this case. That's for the benefit of their crank audience.

[Anya Cain]

It's like, why are they acting as camp counselors for the stupidest people on the Internet? I don't understand it. Just make your argument in court and put everything you got into it and see if you can prevail.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if I sound annoyed, I apologize, but I am. I am annoyed. I think this case deserves a lot more dignity and respect than it was afforded by these attorneys.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I mean, I was. It's always dismay. I guess it's. I feel dismayed when I see YouTube links in a legal filing. In this case, they seemingly had Michael Osbrook, a former law school professor turned sort of online defense acolyte who was part of the due process gang that we reported on. He's. He's got this on his little YouTube channel, along with like a list of songs that he likes, including the cast of Glee's performance of Don't Stop Believing at the X Factor semifinals. I mean, it doesn't look professional. It doesn't look good. I don't know why this case seems to like, suck people in who have some iota of credibility and then just they squander it instead of trying to bring some credibility to the case. It's like I. I feel like this case is like. Like one of those cursed things that drives people totally insane, I guess, because they'd be start behaving like lunatics online whenever they get close to it. And I mean, case in point. And then the other bizarre thing is that they actually pass this on, seemingly to an Internet sleuth who posted it on X or Twitter or what have you. And weeks ago, weeks ago, they. This woman, Nicole Miller, whatever the heck she calls herself these days, she posted a portion of it asking for input from her followers. Why the heck do they care about what.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is not something serious legal professionals do. And I will say that the appellate attorneys in this case, Mr. Lehman and Ms. Uliana, are real attorneys. They are serious attorneys. They are ethical attorneys. They are professionals. I don't think they are going to be posting excerpts from their filings on Twitter in advance. Advance to solicit opinions from strangers.

[Anya Cain]

Given our luck with the profile episodes. I'm not even going to say anything positive about any attorneys until I see them perform. But at the very least, I would hope that appellate attorneys would focus on the law and whether or not Allen's rights were violated at any point, rather than this crowdsourcing nonsense, which seems to be about making very lonely people feel part of a community. And that's lovely, but like, join a club, go bird watching. I mean, this is just silly. I don't like to see silly stuff in a case. I don't know. I think the whole thing's ridiculous. But let's move along and talk to about some of the big points that are raised within these documents.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think the first significant point that is raised is the claim that Richard Allen had an attorney prior to the appointment of Mr. Rosie and Mr. Baldwin. And what was that attorney's name?

[Anya Cain]

I believe it was Gibson.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So Mr. Gibson, they say, was contacted by Kathy Allen. He was paid $5,000. He then goes, he communicates with prosecutor Nicholas McLeland. He communicates, I believe, within Sheriff Tbesonby. They arrange for him to visit with Mr. Allen in jail. And Mr. Gibson emerges from that visit with the knowledge that he passes on to Kathy Allen that Richard Allen is about to be charged with murder the next day. And then the next day there is a hearing where he's charged with murder. And this gentleman, Mr. Gibson, is not present. And Mr. Gibson is also not part of the business around the moving of Mr. Allen to a different facility.

[Anya Cain]

So what are they trying to do here?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's focus on this. Let's focus on this. What are the problems with this? It's an interesting claim, but there are several problems with this. First of all, go back in the my case file, and you will see that in early November of 2022, shortly after his arrest, Richard Allen writes a letter to the judge. And in this letter to the judge, he refers to his first hearing in the case. And he says, I'll just read it. Exactly what he says. He says, in my initial hearing, I ask to find representation for myself. So if Mr. Allen believed himself to be represented by an attorney at his initial hearing, why is he then asking the judge to let him find an attorney? Because according to Mr. Allen, he doesn't have one. So that's interesting. Also, I don't know anything about Mr. Gibson. I'm going to assume he's a competent professional attorney. If he has a client who he has been told is going to be charged with murder the next day, I imagine that Mr. Gibson would be there. So what do I think happened? I'm speculating.

[Anya Cain]

This is speculation. We don't know what happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I am speculating that during that meeting with Mr. Allen and during the subsequent meetings or previous meetings that Mr. Gibson had with law enforcement, it was discussed the charges, and Mr. Gibson and Mr. Allen decided that it would not be ideal for Mr. Gibson to represent him for whatever reason. And so maybe Mr. Gibson was just hired for a consultation. Maybe he was just hired for an initial conference. I also find one other thing interesting about all of this. There's the old cliche, where's the dog that didn't bark? Where's the dog that didn't bark? In this. Anya, I will tell you. They have an affidavit that they filed from Kathy Allen saying, oh, I paid the $5,000 for this man to be my husband's attorney. The dog that didn't bark is. There is nothing in here from Richard Allen. There's no affidavit in here from Richard Allen saying this man was my attorney.

[Anya Cain]

Nope. Nope, there was not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That makes me very. Again, I'm sorry, I Find this annoying, but that makes me very skeptical.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, you mean they're. They're trying to conjure up an image of something without actually, you know, while talking around inconvenient facts? When have they ever done this before? I mean, it's just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know if this man was Mr. Allen's attorney. Mr. Allen could have signed an affidavit saying, this was my understanding, if this man was Mr. Allen's attorney, Mr. Allen would not be telling the judge, oh, don't worry, I'm going to find an attorney, because he already would have had one.

[Anya Cain]

You know what I just kept thinking when I was reading this? So Brett Gibson, who's the attorney, he, you know, Rosie has signs an affidavit himself saying, well, I emailed him and this is what he told me, but he's not signing an affidavit himself. The thing that, like in bright letters, neon letters, in my mind flashing, turco, Turco, Turco, Turco. You know, every time it seems like these defense attorneys are responsible for conveying a third party person's experience, they. They twist it into something incredibly self serving. And then later on facts come out and you're like, oh, okay, well, that's not really what you said it was, but, you know, thanks for playing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, I would be very interested in hearing from the attorney or from Mr. Allen saying that they believe themselves to be in a relationship where Mr. Gibson would represent him in this matter.

[Anya Cain]

I don't. Yeah. As you said, in what attorney would blow off their. Okay, but also, let's just forget. Forget all this. It's okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why do you need an affidavit from Kathy Allen if you just ask your client.

[Anya Cain]

Well, okay. Here's the other thing, though, that were kind of the obvious thing. When you become someone's attorney and you're representing them on a case, you file into the case. Correct. And that's something that would appear on, you know, the. My case docket that we all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It'd be in the court file.

[Anya Cain]

It'd be in the court file. And also, can you. Is that a very onerous process? No, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As you may or may not remember, at one point in this case, there were a number of documents that were improperly being KE by the public. And so I, I'm an attorney. I filed an appearance into the case so I could file a motion for those documents to be released. It was very easy to do. It's just basically you say, hey, I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney here. I am Folks, that's basically all you do.

[Anya Cain]

Do a little razzmatazz, a little dance. No, I mean, it was easy for you to do, so there was no. You didn't have to, like, get permission. You didn't have to do anything crazy. You didn't have to jump through hoops. You just did it in our office just because we were like, let's get the documents.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. So, I mean, the idea that an attorney who's at all a competent professional would first of all blow off a client's murder hearing in a murder case, their first hearing, and then also just forget to file into the case, that doesn't make any sense. That's not how this works. So what they're trying to do here is my, you know, basically indicate that Allen's constitutional rights were violated and that therefore every bit of evidence that came from him being incarcerated with west at Westville should be, you know, thrown. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Their argument is this attorney, Mr. Gibson, who, for all we know, did not actually represent Mr. Allen, that this attorney should have been present for the safekeeping motion or hearing, and he could have possibly kept Richard Allen from being transferred to Westville. And then they have supposition upon supposition upon hypotheses that the only reason Richard Allen ever confessed was because he was so unhappy at Westville. And they include in there some very unrealistic and inaccurate descriptions of his living conditions at Westville. He was not in solitary confinement at Westville. He was in a cell by himself. But he had contact with therapists. He had a tablet which allowed him communication with the outside world.

[Anya Cain]

Well, except when he was having a hissy fit and breaking it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, but this tablet allowed him to talk to his family. He was kept there because people who are plausibly accused of committing a double homicide against children are not very popular in prison. And so he was kept there to keep him alive.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Carroll county is a tiny county. Carroll county is not a county with a jail that can facilitate anybody with any sort of needs that rose to that level. And also, Carroll county is a jail that has staffing issues. So putting him in Carroll county jail would have been a safety risk to him. And there's. There's no way around that. I mean, I guess to me, this. This. This segment is. Is weak from them. And it. It feels like when you can. I. When I can see sunlight streaming through, you know, the holes in. In the. In the paper that they've kind of drawn up like. And. And it's like, well, what about that? Why is he Saying himself in the letter he wrote that he didn't have an attorney at the time. I mean, that's. You know, it's. But it's. It's not about. And in my. And this is what's frustrating about this legal team. Lawyers are typically arguing before a judge. They're picking arguments that are based on fact or the law because they want to impress the judge and win. These people seem to only care about winning online. And the thing is, most people online, I mean, I. I think at this point, public sentiment has taken a turn against a lot of this. I don't. I don't think it's successful. But, you know, they. They like to invigorate their base, which is basically just conspiracy theorists at this point. And I don't know. I just. I guess. I don't. If. If any of them want to start a YouTube channel, I guess that would be a huge benefit. But other than that, I don't really see what. What this is doing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's move on to the second part of this document where they. They purport to have a video which they put on YouTube which shows. Well, let me backtrack a little bit. So Richard Allen, one of his most detailed confessions, I guess his most detailed confection of the murders of Abby and Libby included a detail that he allegedly just planned to sexually assault them. But then he is startled by the appearance of a van driving nearby, a white van, and that this somehow scared him and prompted him to murder both girls. And how could you know that there was a white van passing by that vicinity if you weren't there? So that's something only would know on.

[Anya Cain]

The prosecution was able to bring in the driver of the van and show that he would have been on the road at approximately that time at that date. So.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so now the defense is presenting a video which shows, yeah, here's a white van, or what looks like a white van turning on that road around the time of the killings. So, first of all, I guess now we all agree that there was a white van on the road around the time of the killings.

[Anya Cain]

That's new, because at trial, what the defense was arguing was that perhaps Brad Weber, the driver, would have been in his Subaru car that day or that he would have been running around going to service his various ATMs around the state.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let's not gloss over that. The defense is now contending that, yes, there was a white van on that road around the time of the killings. And again, my question would be, if we all agree that White van was there. How could Richard Allen have known it was there if he was also not there in the process of killing the girls? So there's that. The next point is they say, well, this van, we have this video footage, and we believe when we look at the timestamps, that it was actually driving down that road about 10 or 12 minutes later than what the prosecution theorized. And talk us about the timestamps.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, well, so they, they are pretty upfront with this. In fairness. They note that the timestamps are all wrong in, in this. So it's a situation where they're characterizing it as essentially, the security camera is 12 hours behind. This is from an affidavit from Matt Hoffman and investigator for the defense team. So he's saying that instead of 12:00am it's really 12:00pm and the reason we can tell that is because, you know things like it's. It's light out, right. So you can, you can tell it's daytime versus nighttime. So they're saying that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So if we all agree that the timestamps are wrong, then what basis are you using to determine that your own guess of what the time actually is is accurate?

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And let me note, they're saying that the, whatever the vehicle, this kind of blurry thing enters the frame around 2:44pm and 33 seconds. Right. But again, if you're saying the timestamps are wrong, I guess, how do you know it's just 12 hours, 12 hours sharp, that this is off by.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe it's off by 11 hours and 50 minutes. Maybe it's off by 12 hours and 10 minutes. What basis are you using to conclude that it is exactly 12 hours? If you have any experience with security cameras with timestamps, you will know that sometimes when there's a storm or when there's some kind of an outage, that. That messes up the system. So there's really no way to determine, oh, it's magically 12 hours. Exactly different. So there's that.

[Anya Cain]

So if this is off by even, I don't know, approximately 20 minutes, then what. It's essential. What is. What this essentially shows is something that confirms the state's case completely. And if we already can't verify the timestamps, I mean, again, they're, they're honest about that. They're saying the timestamps are wrong, but then they're just sort of glossing over. It's 12 hours. You know, it's not 2:00am It's 2:00pm okay, fine. But if it's Already wrong. And we all have had that experience where we've kind of had timestamps get messed up, you know, based on. Based on some outside factor or storage issues or a glitch. Then how confident are we that this is even that accurate?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's, for the sake of argument, let's assume for a moment that their guess is correct. Let's assume that this video does show the van, and it shows it exactly 12 hours past the date or past the time indicated. So that would put the van arriving there about, I think you said, 243.

[Anya Cain]

244. Turning onto the road on 244.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At 244. So keep in mind that the prosecution wasn't trying to prove a lot of extraneous details about the exact choreography of the murders. What they were saying is bridge guy, Richard Allen kidnapped the girls, he forced them down a hill, he made them cross the river. The phone that belonged to Libby stopped moving at 2:32. And then at some point, Richard Allen was startled by the white van and killed the girls. Can you imagine a situation where he has kidnapped the girls, made them go down the hill, had them cross the river or creek, and he has them standing in one position terrorizing them, perhaps making them strip or what have you, and that this terrorizing the girls or assaulting the girls is occurring with them not moving from that location. So you could have the phone not moving. He is assaulting the girls, he's making them strip. Then he sees the van at 12:44 and everything fits. So that. That's just off the top of my head. What do you think?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think I see what you're saying. The state's case is not necessarily so bound up in specific minor details that it would be necessarily devastating. I think that's fair to point out. But generally I'm kind of. I'm just looking at this and I'm saying I need more to even kind of get to the point where I'm like, yeah, that's definitely the right time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I'm just saying, even if you think that is the right time, it doesn't lead you to a conclusion of Richard Allen not being guilty. And in fact, the defense attorneys conceding that there was a white van on that road around the time of the killings. That, to me is a huge omission on their part, because how could their client have known that if he was not there killing the girls?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, and again, it's. It's one of those things where it's not like they're showing the van go in at twilight or you know, like in the, like sometime where it would totally throw everything off. It's. We're close enough here that if there's a couple of different, I don't know, glitches or issues with the exact time and that that hasn't been updated by the owners in some time, we're in that frame where I guess it's close enough where I'm like, okay. I'm surprised that they're even putting this out there based on that because it seems to. I feel like it almost bolsters things for the prosecution. Yeah. In a way. And I will say that they do note well, Weber's phone pings in his parents address on that road at 2:50pm that day. But again I. Well, first of all, I've already read some of their filings on phone pings so I guess that makes me skeptical. I don't feel like there's a, you know, wealth of understanding on this team and around technology and listen, I, I mean I don't boast that myself so I'm not. But I mean, I think if it's pertinent to your case, you should learn. But I would say that, I mean for that I'm like, I don't know, is there a. If there's something that, I mean, that certainly shows he's in there at 250. Right. But I don't necessarily think that that means that he wasn't in there earlier.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You know, so I don't know. Anyways, anything else we wanted to say about that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think let's move on to Ron Logan, Part three of this.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, Jesus Christ. Okay, so Ron Logan of course was the elderly man who owned the property on which the girls were found. To give you a sense, he owned many, many acres of land around Deer Creek. So it's a huge property and they were found on the opposite side of the creek to where he lived. He came up as a person that police looked at pretty early on. He. There was a search warrant at his house in March 2017, which we reported on. He got a probation violation as a result of the investigation into him and was actually jailed and incarcerated for a time. So I mean, I think it's fair to say police went at him pretty hard and there were some things where he. He lied to his cousin about going to an aquarium. He. No, he lied. He had his cousin lie for him about going to an aquarium store that day. But when you look at some of the context of that, you know, he was. At that time, he was. He was basically facing probation violations because he was not supposed to have been driving. So when people are coming up to him and asking, where were you this afternoon? You know, if you look at it very skeptically, you could say, oh, he's hiding. He's fixing an alibi for himself. But if you also look at it with more of the understanding of where he's coming from, I think it also just looks like a guy who's like, oh, no, they're gonna find out I was driving when I wasn't supposed to. I mean, it could kind of go either way. So what you have to do in that situation is you. You maybe look into him, but you have to go over the evidences, and they did not find any evidence against him in the murders. You know, that, like, that's kind of the basic, you know. But one thing you have to understand about Logan is that there are people who, years ago, people who, you know, are not professionals, and then maybe even some people who are allegedly professionals who have made it their personality, made it their life's mission to essentially believe strongly that Ron Logan is the real killer. What they get out of this I don't really understand. But, you know, they believe that this man who was jailed for a probation violation, it was somehow also simultaneously a kingpin who managed to arrange everything in Carroll county so that he got away with murder, even though he felt the police ruined his life because of the probation violation. So, I don't know. The arithmetic's not working there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And let me be clear. Ron Logan was far from a perfect man, but it is not fair to him or to his family to accuse him of murder because there is no evidence connecting him to these crimes. And he certainly did not kill Abby and Libby because Richard Allen did.

[Anya Cain]

So it's like, you know. But again, he's been this kind of figure for a lot of these. I'd say, the kind of original group of conspiracy theorists around it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So how was he brought up in this document?

[Anya Cain]

Well, the defense busts out an old favorite, which is a prison house snitch situation. Now, that's one of those kind of classic tropes in true crime, where usually, I mean, when you read about cases or, like, wrongful convictions, you often kind of run into the prosecution doing this, where it's like, oh, man, my cellmate was muttering in his sleep, and he said he killed his wife. And whenever the prosecution of the state does that, and it's. And it's just that it's Just someone's word. That always makes me highly skeptical. It's one thing when you wire up the cellmate and they get a pretty clear confession of like, yes, I want to hire you to kill witnesses. I mean, that's, that's fair. But when it's just like, hi, can I make a deal with you? This guy who is my cellmate was saying this, this and this, I don't find that credible. I don't also don't find it credible when the defense attorneys are doing this in this case and this is not the first time they've done this. What they're saying now is this guy RICKY Dale Davis Jr. Is, you know, got a confession from Ron Logan while they were incarcerated together that he murdered the girls with a box cutter. So the thing people are hung up on now is, oh, box cutter. How do you know it was a box cutter? Now, I mean, to me, again, this kind of goes back to the van thing. Is the defense now conceding that the girls were killed with a box cutter? Because they didn't. They were not happy at trial when Dr. Roland Core, the pathologist, came out and said, well, actually it might have been a box cutter. They were like, you didn't tell us that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if we all agree he was k. The girls were killed by a box cutter and that it is devastating for someone to have this information, then how did Richard Allen know that the girls were killed by a box cutter when he said he used a box cutter to kill them?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I don't, I don't. I. So again, seems to be, seems to be possibly conceding something which is bizarre. The other thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can I ask one more question?

[Anya Cain]

Hit me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are they. If we're now pointing the finger at Ron Logan yet again, are we conceding that the Odinism theory was a complete disaster? Are we now walking away from Odinism and say, no, it wasn't the Odinist, it was Ron Logan all along?

[Anya Cain]

I guess so. I mean, I note that the attorneys, the defense attorneys in this case have done their round. They've done their media rounds with friendly outlets and, and mainstream press and they. I don't recall ever. I mean, you can put a lot in a court filing and that's privileged and that's protected. But when you step out into the town square and start saying things about people and accusing these alleged Odinists of being murderers of two children, you are open to a defamation suit?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. So in case you were wondering why in their interviews, they have not been publicly naming the people they accused of Murder, it's because they are afraid of getting sued.

[Anya Cain]

So, I mean, because if you weren't afraid of getting sued, I mean, if you felt like, I mean, frankly, if you felt like you would win out into some sort of discovery process, I mean, why not just be loud about it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

But now this is about, oh, it's not the odinus. It's. It's Ron Logan.

[Anya Cain]

I guess Ron Logan from the grave bamboozled them into selecting the odinus because he's just that powerful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so Ricky Davis apparently says, oh, Ron Logan told me this elaborate story involving burn pits and such. Ron Logan's house and property was extensively searched as part of this investigation in March of 2017. And I would assume if anything was found during those searches, which would support these, these interesting allegations, then we would have heard about it long ago. Yeah, and Mr. Davis himself is not a terribly trustworthy individual.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, let's, let's take a look at who this guy is. So Ricky Davis has a extensive list of charges against him dating back decades. He's currently at the New Castle Correctional Facility. And he's going to be there. What, I mean, online on the Indiana Department of Corrections website, his earliest possible release date is listed as 2020 39. Most recently, he was sentenced for possession of methamphetamine in 2010. 2007, forgery, counterfeiting and application fraud. 2002, theft, receiving stolen property. 2010, conspiracy forgery, counterfeiting, application fraud. 2002, conspiracy forgery, counterfeiting, application fraud. 2002, theft, Receiving stolen property. 2002, attempted controlled substance registration. 2002, burglary. 2002, theft, Receiving Stolen property. Another one for that. 2002, auto theft and receiving stolen auto parts. 2014, dealing in methamphetamine. Okay, so not only are we seeing a lot of drug activity, we are also seeing a lot of what I would call, I don't know, crimes that would make me concerned about someone's credibility. Forgery, forgery, stealing. All of these things involve dishonesty, lying. No, I'm a person where I believe that people can be rehabilitated and can go from doing bad things and, and become an honest person and doing good things. That's something I fundamentally believe about a lot of people. Not everybody. But I'm not saying that everybody who's ever had a methamphetamine habit or has done bad things like stealing from others or forging stuff. I'm not saying that everyone in that group cannot be rehabilitated. But do I put a lot of weight in the word of Ricky Davis barring any corroborating evidence? No, not at all. And no one should. And frankly, if Ricky Davis had come in and said, you know, come into the trial and the prosecution trotted him out and he said, you know, I was in a cell. I was in the same cell block with Richard Allen and I heard him yelling out a confession, I would have said, I think we should disregard this because I don't. I don't like this type of evidence. I don't think it's good evidence. I don't think it's. I don't think it's credible, no matter who's using it. Barring some kind of recording, barring some kind of, like, proof, something. I don't think you can hang your hat on this. What do you think, Kevin? Am I being too hard on jailhouse snitches?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, I. It's difficult for me to take this. This stuff seriously, other than, again, this seems to be, at the very least, inching away from Odinism. I feel that the detour that the defense took into Odinism was unfortunate for many, many. It wasted a lot of time for all of us, and it accomplished absolutely nothing. Because, again, one thing we can say with certainty is that the girls were not killed by Odinis. They were killed by Richard Allen.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, beyond that, I mean, just the whole, like. I mean, we have allegations of prosecutorial malfeasance. We have a soft YouTube launch, and now we have complaining about Ron Logan and, like, jailhouse snitches. I mean, this feels like some sort of, like, I don't know, this feels like. It feels like we're back in, like, 2018 or something. It feels like we're on Reddit in, like, in, like, when this started. And it's just. It's more about just bouncing a bunch of stuff around and seeing what sticks rather than actually getting with the facts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And it's frustrating because, you know, I don't know, you just want to think better of attorneys, I guess. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They concluded with a section about the phone.

[Anya Cain]

You sound like you really want to talk about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. Okay, well, set me up, and I'll tell you what. I feel like. I have a strong feeling about this phone stuff.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So they found some sort of data which. This came out in the trials. There was some sort of data that discovered. Which indicated that headphones were plugged into her and then taken out of Libby's phone in the middle of the night. And the. The state Suggested through an expert, Chris Cecil, that this sort of thing could happen if there was water or dirt in the headphone port. And again, the phone was outside and the girls had been across a body of water. Their bodies were in a anywhere with lots of dirt. So that would seem to be a plausible explanation for why that happened. I've certainly had issues with my phone where it says a headphone is either plugged in or not plugged in when it's not. And the alternative is ludicrous. Why would we imagine that the killer would return in the middle of the night and somehow access the phone, which was located under the body of Abigail Williams, and then plug in the headphones and then unplug them all without moving the phone in any discernible fashion? That is ludicrous. That is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard. And I sat through this entire trial.

[Anya Cain]

Let me just say, sometimes when I get annoyed, I'm taking notes. I'm actually just reading my notes right now. And at this point, I just started writing. Theory is stupid. Only stupid people believe this. This is dumb. Some curse words doesn't make any sense. So that's how I feel about it in a nutshell. I'll just. I'll just add to what your point is here. And I've had the same issues with a headphone jack. I mean, I've, you know, had my phone near a pool and like, maybe some moisture, maybe like, something happens and then it's a big pain in the butt. It's really not that surprising having their trotting their expert out to say, well, it's bad that the state police Googled stuff. I mean, okay, but maybe, maybe they should have googled stuff too, because then they could have talked around that more or, like, figured it out. Like, I don't know. I mean, I. So when it comes to. Geez, when it comes to this, I think you said it well. But let's just. Let's just talk about their scenario according to them, you know, and of course, now. Of course, now they're on the YouTube tour. You know, you got Faraday bags, you got all sorts of things. But what they're saying is that the girls were abducted from the area around the bridge and then brought back around 4am Somehow walked from wherever that vehicle is to where they were killed, which is down a huge, steep hill that was difficult for, like, police officers to get down without any. And let me just be clear. One thing we've learned is that the search never stopped. Searchers were out there all night. The official search stopped. The official search stopped because there's liability and safety issues. But from what we've been hearing, people were still going around very late at night. People were looking. So, so these girls, these kidnapping victims are walked down this steep area without the phone registering that, that there was movement. There's somehow walked down there in the dead of night. It's pitch black out. It's. It's after 4am there's people are out searching. People are out searching and they're returned to the scene where they were around where they were kidnapped from. And then the phone is, for some.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Reason, the killer says, wait a minute, I want to listen to a little bit of a song or something.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He plugs his headphones in, listens to whatever he wants to listen to, unplugs his headphones, puts the phone on the ground, and then kills the girls.

[Anya Cain]

Kills the girls so that Abby goes over the phone. Does that make any sense to anybody? Like, if are people actually sitting down and thinking that? Because like, I would love to know what the heck they are smoking. I mean, like, like what, what, what on earth. So we're going to believe that because that's more realistic than some dirt or moisture getting in your headphone jack and messing stuff up. Like they like that. Like that's happened to everyone with a phone ever. Like, I, I guess I just. I don't know. There's something insulting about some of this. It's like they think the public is this dumb and the public's not dumb. The audience is not dumb. People who follow this are not dumb. They can see through this. And I just, I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of people who follow this, first of all, I, I don't think the mainstream press did a great job covering the trial.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But also a lot of people who follow this had a lot of very legitimate questions and concerns. Certainly we did. If you listen to the interview we did recently with Nicholas McLelan, we talked with him about how this case began. We had a lot of serious questions and concerns, and sometimes we were hard on the prosecution. So there's nothing wrong with having serious questions or concerns. When the government exercises its power to bring someone to trial, that's a very serious thing. We should examine that closely. This Delphi investigative team, they have been everything they've been. Everything they've done has been poured over with a fine tooth comb. And yeah, they did a good investigation. They found a guilty man and they convicted him properly.

[Anya Cain]

I, I feel like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And no fantasies about phones or lawyers who allegedly represented Him. Even though the lawyer and the client don't offer any statements indicating that such representation occurred, none of, none of this changes the facts.

[Anya Cain]

I feel like the error in this case was these defense attorneys opting to come back on, because I feel like they just did a bad job, and I feel like perhaps other attorneys would have done a better job.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They had a bad hand and they played it remarkably poorly, but it was a vigorous defense. I don't think there's an ineffective counsel claim. And in fairness, I think particularly Mr. Scremin, who was one of the attorneys appointed to this case during that brief time when Baldwin and Rosie were removed, I think he would have done a much better job.

[Anya Cain]

He would have a good reputation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He would have taken his bad hand, and he would have played it very well. I still think it would have ended.

[Anya Cain]

In a conviction, maybe a conviction with more dignity than whatever the heck this is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

But I mean, fewer YouTube clicks for people. So, I mean, I guess that if this, I mean, like, if you told me that this was more about, like, you know, giving, giving a tip of the hat to YouTubers, like, I would, I mean, I wouldn't believe that because why would you do that? But, like, frankly, where, like, that's what it looks like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I don't believe if Mr. Scraman was on this case, he'd be filing motions with links to exhibits appearing on YouTube.

[Anya Cain]

What will true crime swine69 say about this one? I want to make sure I give him a little shout out. Maybe I'll let him read my filing beforehand to give his, you know, air died thoughts. It's, it's, it's appalling. It's embarrassing. I, I'm, I feel secondhand embarrassment when I read some of this stuff.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When Nick McLeland, the prosecutor of Carroll county, when he files his response to this, I don't expect that it will be on TikTok. I, I think it would be in a proper legal filing done in a professional way.

[Anya Cain]

I, I guess it's just, I, I, I, I tend to prefer professionalism from people, obviously, rather than, like, like, whatever this is. But it's just, it's not even like they're, it's not even like they're posing for the mainstream press. At least there's some dignity in that. It's, they're, they're, they're posing for, like, their little fans. It's like these people flattered them so hard that now they're just, like, desperate to keep that the serotonin and good vibes Going with all the little compliments about how they're all. The second coming a Clarence Darrow. And I think when you're. When you're leaning in that much, you're. You're subject to kind of getting lost and. And not perhaps doing your best. Maybe surrounding yourself by yes men and women is not the path to, I think, doing a really good job in anything. And I just. I don't know. I think it's really bizarre to see. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, we're wrapping up, but I think at some point it might be interesting to have a conversation about. There's some sort of phenomenon here about all the people with good reputations who entered this case and then ended up destroying themselves or their reputations in some fashion.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I have, like. It's like it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's like a. I have a mental list. I'm sure you do.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I do. It's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm sure everybody listen.

[Anya Cain]

A horror movie. It's like, it's curse. Like, everyone, like, comes in being, like, really respectable, and they come out just, like, screaming about like, the Odinists are in the trees. Watch out. You know, it's like, guys, like, you know, it's possible to just do a job and do it as well as you can and, like, not do all of this. And actually, sometimes I think all of this distracted them. I think their eye went off the. The prize, so to speak. And I think. I think they. They were thinking, like, almost like. Like writers, like, what. What's the most interesting story rather than what is the best way to defend our client? And again, I don't think it rises to ineffective counsel. But this. This kind of speaks to that. You know, I. I just. I'll be curious to see the actual appeal. I mean, that's obviously. I mean, this kind of restarts the clock on that. So they're, you know, that's going to be coming down the pike, I'm sure. But, you know, I don't know. I guess on some level it's been. It's been disappointing to observe this defense in action because, I mean, based on what we were told and based on what we understood, we sort of believe them to have very good reputations and they would come in and perform competently and do a good job for their client. And we had every expectation of seeing that, and we were happy about that because that's what you want. That's how the system's supposed to work. I mean, what you want is two sides that are good at their jobs doing lawyering and being honest and just kind of going, going at it and eventually the, the jury decides a verdict and that's, that's it. But I guess that was too much to ask for in this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are we done?

[Anya Cain]

I think we're done. Thanks for listening, everybody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs, really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make it they're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not, you're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great, they feel great. But yeah, I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean that's a little bit of a. You're, you're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a, a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we wrap up this episode, can we take just a moment to say a few more words about our great new sponsor, Acorns?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Thanks so much to Acorns. Remember, when you sponsors, you're supporting us and our sponsors make it possible for us to do this job. So we really appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsors.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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