Podcast Host / Announcer (3:18)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

Anya Cain (3:20)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

Podcast Host / Announcer (3:22)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

Kevin Greenlee (3:28)

We're the Murder Sheet.

Anya Cain (3:30)

And this is the Delphi murders. Nine years gone. Sa. Okay, so I guess with this case, I guess what we wanted to do is take a moment to, as I mentioned, sort of recenter things. Recenter the conversation to what we feel matters. And what we feel matters most at this point, now that there has been a trial, a conviction, somebody has been held accountable for this heinous crime is recenter it on the girls, I mean, they're what matters. They're what we should take away from this. They're what we should remember about this. Their lives, the lives of Abby and Libby mattered. So I think that's what we wanted to sort of talk about more today.

Kevin Greenlee (4:59)

Yeah, I've. I've been struck recently. I've seen a number of content creators, including a number of content creators who have not covered the case previously, like, jumping into it and trying to ask questions that have already been answered at the trial and try to insinuate that there was something not up. And no, we know what happened. All of the questions have been answered, or the vast majority of the questions have been answered. We know who is responsible for the end of these girls lives. So let's talk about the girls and maybe not spend so much time relitigating and trying to defend or argue on behalf of the man who killed them.

Anya Cain (5:52)

Yeah, I think it's really creepy when people decide to be fans of a child murderer. That's just me. I wouldn't want those people around my kids. But I think more importantly, you know, one thing that I'm always struck with is some, you know, it's kind of like grifters are gonna grift, so they're gonna come in and try to do their own thing on. And they just. I'm just asking questions. Why won't anyone answer my questions? And they're inevitably questions that were answered at trial. And it's like your lack of Paying attention, your lack of critical thinking skills does not mean that no one's answering the questions. Maybe you're just not comprehending the answers because maybe they're not the answers you want.

Kevin Greenlee (6:28)

That applies to the content creators. There's a number of people out there who not even never even heard of the case. And they. And they may stumble on something and they see on YouTube, it may get confused. Yeah, and I understand that.

Anya Cain (6:46)

I don't blame those people at all.

Kevin Greenlee (6:48)

I don't blame people in the audience for having questions. I blame content creators for seeing nothing but dollar signs in the deaths of these two precious children and trying to gin up numbers by again, asking questions that have been answered.

Anya Cain (7:06)

Exactly. So let's talk about Abby and Libby. So Abby and Libby, we mentioned they were best friends. They're very close. They're both in eighth grade together at Delphi Middle Middle School. And Libby in particular was very involved in a lot of sports. Abby did some sports with her, and they had different personalities, but they kind of complimented each other in a way. I think Libby was the really outgoing one. She was the one who was kind of like, you know, she's going to say something if she saw something that she didn't like, you know, she was going to stand up for her friends, she was gonna stand up for herself. She was a kid with, you know, those kind of values, that protective instinct where she wasn't just going to, you know. And I think that's really impressive for a middle schooler, honestly, because, like, I, I feel like middle school's that time where everyone's kind of awkward and you don't really wanna speak up necessarily, and you're nervous and you don't wanna. Peer pressure's a real thing at that age. And Libby was kind of one of those people who was just like, no, I'm not doing that. Absolutely not. And I think she seems like a really cool kid, you know, athletic, really good at math and science in particular. Very smart. I remember us talking with her grandma Becky, and Becky talking about how, like, she had to get Libby almost like to learn how to study because she was advancing so quickly. And especially math, where it was like, okay, now it's getting a little harder for you. You know, previously, like, you'd been like, you know, doing math in circles around everyone else, but now it's, you're doing it at a higher level, so you've got to take the time to study it and immerse yourself and figure it out. And so she was very smart. Very, very smart, interested in possibly a career in the sciences. Famously kind of looked. Was kind of enthralled a bit by some of the cultural depictions of crime scene investigations and the scientists who help police solve crimes, the forensic scientists. So she was always kind of interested in that angle, interested in being a physician. Although as again we. We learned from her family, she was pretty scared of needles. So they were kind of like, if you do medicine, you're gonna have to, you know, be used to that sort of thing. And she's kind of like, I don't know about that. So I relate to that. I'm scared of needles too. Um, but, you know, she was a, she was a great kid. Um, and just very funny. Like you can like stuff like where like she's filming herself like on little videos and st come out. She said a sense of humor. And then Abby was the quieter one. She was a little bit more shy, she was more reserved. But when you got to know her, she was a lot less reserved and a lot less shy. So she was just someone who was a little bit more quiet. I relate to that. I was like that at that age and still had a really glowing personality. Just a very helpful person. Her grandma at the sentencing hearing talked about how like her favorite phrase was, how can I help? So she was about helping others. She had a tremendous faith in God and she was someone who just was. She was a little girl. I mean, she was a little girl herself, but she loved babies. You know, her family thinks like, she would have been an amazing mother and just a very sweet, sweet, innocent kid who did have a bit of a side. Like she loved roller coasters. So, you know, she liked to do her own thing. But I feel like when I hearing about their relationship, I always felt like, you know, Libby might be the more outgoing one, Abby might be the more reserved one. But they kind of were able to bring out a different side in each other. And just talking with people in the community, like, you know, teachers and stuff, there was a sense of like, you call for Abby and Libby comes running too, or vice versa. So like they were kind of, you know, and they were in this close knit group of friends. We've heard from some of their friends and you know, it was like this group and it was a tight group and you know, they were, they were kids who cared about each other and were there for each other and just, you know, your typical. I mean, like the one thing about Delphi, I think it's important to understand, like any community, this place has issues, right? Like many rural spots in America in Indiana, you know, there's problems with meth. I mean, there's problems with methamphetamines, drugs. There can be issues, but it's not like a high crime area where, like, strangers are doing wild stuff to each other. And it's, you know, it's generally considered a safe place to raise kids. And it's nice because it's got that small town feel, it's got that rural feel. It's still kind of, in many ways, a farming community where people sort of drop things to help each other. So, you know, for. For any issues it may have, it's also a good place to raise kids. And that's what was happening for Abby and Libby. They were being raised in this community. Libby's family had kind of strong ties to that area. I think Abby's family was a bit more new to that area, but they were both kind of doing well and learning and growing and, you know, having that friendship that can be so meaningful for kids at that age. And it's a tremendous loss that they're not here anymore. It's a tremendous loss. We always talk about the families, and that's certainly, I think, where the focus should be. But I also want to take a moment to talk about their friends. Think about the kids in their class, the kids who were in that friend group, and how traumatic this loss would be. Not only the horrific thing that happened to them, but just then afterwards, they're not there anymore. They're just gone. And seeing that kind of loss and experiencing that kind of grief at that age, I imagine is something that will stay with them. I mean, that's. I can't even imagine that.

Kevin Greenlee (12:54)

Delphi, as you were saying, is a wonderful place with wonderful people. And I think there are people all over the world who have come to feel a connection to Abby and Libby and who care about those girls and what they met and what was lost when they died. But with that said, I think the people who care the most might be the people in Delphi who knew these girls. And they remember the girls in a variety of important ways, one of which is there is a park in their memories, the Abbey and Libby park in Delphi. Can you talk about that?

Anya Cain (13:39)

Yeah, we've been there, so it's very nice. It's a park that has different ball fields. It's a park that has a nice playground. And I think what it represents for the community is a place to memorialize Abby and Libby and their legacy. But I think it's also a place to have where you Know, kids can play safely there, whether they're playing, you know, organized games or just kind of being kids running around the playground, running around the jungle gym. I think it's a really valuable space because it allows for that reflection, but it also kind of represents. Abby and Libby should have been safe that day. They should have been safe. What they were doing was not anything out of, out of bounds or, you know, I mean, like, it's a little risky to go up on that bridge, but not in the way that you think a predator is going to approach you. And I think what the park represents is a really, a truly safe place for kids to play outdoors, which they didn't get that day, unfortunately.

Kevin Greenlee (14:37)

Yeah, it's a way to remember them. And it's a way also, I think it's important not to think of these girls just for how they died, but to remember how they lived.

Anya Cain (14:51)

Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (14:52)

And the activities at the park are the sort of things they would have really enjoyed in life. And I think it's important to remember how they lived rather than how they died.

Anya Cain (15:02)

Yeah, they're athletic, you know, active kids. And I think, you know, this kind of represents, cements their legacy for everybody there. And, you know, I think that's a really positive way to remember them. We donated a portion of our book advance to the Abbey and Libby Memorial park because we felt that it's an important mission. It's a very, very important mission. And I think we would encourage others, if you're looking for a worthy charitable cause to donate to. That is something that is an option. We'll include a link to that in our show notes if you are so inclined. Obviously, you know, times are tough right now. We understand that. But if that's something where you, you want to do something, we felt that it was important for us to do so as people who have covered this for years and who have grown to kind of feel like we, we want to contribute to that mission and that.

Kevin Greenlee (15:53)

And I, I, I think it's also important to note, as I did a moment ago, Delphi is a wonderful place, filled with great people. I, I, I understand those of us who are interested in this crime. If you're in the area, maybe you think, well, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go look at the bridge that I've seen pictures of so much. I understand that. I encourage you, if you do that, also take an opportunity to stop in the city of Delphi itself and go and patronize some local businesses. Don't be asking questions about the case. Just go in there. Enjoy some good food at a good restaurant. Anya, do you remember those moments right before we started the murder sheet?

Anya Cain (16:40)

Yep. I had some pretty severe doubts.

Kevin Greenlee (16:42)

I remember. I remember a lot of you saying, what if no one listens? That would be embarrassing.

Anya Cain (16:47)

Also, later on there was a lot of I can't quit my real job and become a podcaster.

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Anya Cain (19:55)

Go to the biscuit shop. It's the best, guys. And we're not exaggerating. People are like, how good are the biscuits? The best biscuits I've ever had. They're not paying us. We're. They're not a sponsor. We just. I love that business. They're so nice in there and they know how to make a mean biscuit. Also, the waffles are very good, but that's the, the biscuit. The Buttermilk Biscuit Company. I cannot emphasize. If you go to Delphi and you don't go there, I don't know what you're doing. I also like the sandwich stop. We've been there a lot. Lots of different good businesses.

Kevin Greenlee (20:24)

Incredible French fries there. Yeah, yeah. There's lots of great businesses. Just the Rock Shop.

Anya Cain (20:29)

Love them.

Kevin Greenlee (20:30)

Put some money into the local economy. If you, if you go there.

Anya Cain (20:34)

Yeah. No, I mean, I, I think that is important.

Kevin Greenlee (20:36)

Like the Delphi Depot. I think they have Mr. Pibb.

Anya Cain (20:39)

The Delphi depot has Mr. Pibb. This is true. And Kevin loves it. And they're just. People there are just so nice. I mean, that's the thing that's always struck me is that people are very kind. And I think what we try to do when we go in is be respectful and not be doing. You don't want to kind of come across as the true crime tourist. Right. Not that any of you would. But we just try to be respectful. But we also do try to kind of go and, you know, different, different places. I remember we've had, you know, I, I will. I would do One, some businesses that we do have a soft spot in my heart. I love Bill's Rock Shop. Do you remember we went there? I do. And we got some cool rocks. They're super nice. The Buttermilk Biscuit Company, obviously. And then you mentioned the depot, Delphi Depot's.

Kevin Greenlee (21:30)

Great sandwich shop, great French fries.

Anya Cain (21:32)

Absolutely. And Jacobs redesigned as a really nice store. Love those people in there. And honestly, I gotta shout out. I'm not gonna lie. I've got to shout out the Delphi Food mart and Phillips 66 gas station and the Shell gas station. Those people kept us alive during the trial because they were, like, the only businesses open 24 hours. So people could go in there. And they're super nice. So the flower shop. The flower shop I mentioned, because if you want to go out to the graves of the girls, you can go and get a nice bouquet there. And I just think it's important to, you know, people really live there. It's not just a place where a really bad thing happened. Oh, the Delphi Library also. We used to record there all the time. But I would just say that, like, you know, it's a real place. People really experience this there. And I just think I never really saw this with our listeners, but I would see in other corners of the Internet, people almost kind of, like, starting to talk about Delphi. Like, it was this, like, kind of evil place with a dark cloud hanging over it, and people just walking the streets there, cackling and rubbing their hands like they're all part of some conspiracy. And I just want to say, like, that's obviously stupid, but it's. It's. It's actually quite a nice place. And the people there are very nice. And I think, for me, I just think we need to get away from true crime that seeks to almost make us feel better by saying, well, the people there are bad or the people involved are bad, and so it's okay that this bad thing happened to them. I feel like that is kind of a coping mechanism that some people take of, like, you know what? Like, not to get all weird. But I did. I remember I took a whole course in college on the book of Job, and I loved it. It's one of my favorite books of the Bible. It's really fascinating to me from a number of angles. But, you know, the story of Job is, you know, his whole family is killed and, you know, his life is wrecked, and it just loses everything. And there's, you know, Job's friends come to talk him, you know, give him a pep Talk doesn't really go very well. And they're kind of like, well, what did you do to tick God off, man? Like, you must have done something. And he's like, I didn't do anything. And to me, that is kind of the impulse I see from corners of true crime. It's like, we can't. We don't need to feel bad for you. If we feel bad for you, then we feel vulnerable, because then we know that something horrible could happen to us, even though we did nothing to deserve it. But I think people kind of reserve that because they don't want to feel that vulnerability. They want to feel like, oh, I'm not going to make the mistake you guys did by being bad. So you know that, like, they want to distance themselves. And I think true crime at its best is something that instead of trying to distance yourself, you try to embrace people who are suffering. You try to embrace that, and you try to take a hard look at it, and you try to say, this could happen to anybody. And that makes us closer. That brings humanity together, that we all could suffer. Not, you know, not pushing people out because they're suffering, and you don't want to catch the contagion of suffering. Am I making any sense, or am I just totally rambling at this point?

Kevin Greenlee (24:40)

No, you're making sense.

Anya Cain (24:41)

Okay. I never know. But. Yeah. So that's. That's Delphi. Delphi is a place, you know, we. It took us. I mean, we've been reporting on it for years. It took us a while to kind of get a lot of sources in Delphi, I feel, because they were understandably cautious because they'd been through so much, not just with the horrible case, but with, like, people coming in and being quite disrespectful. And so understandably, I think they were skeptical of us, and I think they should have been. And I think we kind of tried to build up trust over time, and ultimately we got there. But, you know, once people opened up to us, it's just a very friendly community. People are very nice. You know, they're. They're a bit more. I always compare them to the folks in Peru in Miami County. The folks in Peru are a lot more outgoing. I think the Delphi people, naturally, not just because of the murders, just naturally are a little bit more reserved for some reason. That's just the kind of culture, but still very sweet and just unobtrusive, normal people who are just, you know, trying to navigate something horrible. And I would just encourage people to have empathy for any town for any city, for any neighborhood, for anywhere that goes through something like this, you know, it. It. There's collective trauma to go around. And I think being cognizant of that is really important. Being cognizant of what the young people who are Libby and Abby's peers went through is really important. What they went through is, you know, traumatic as well. And then when we talk about this whole community, I mean, like, these are people who not only, you know, this is kind of not just a hypothetical for them. Many of them knew Abby and Libby or at least knew their families. So it was. It was eye opening to get to kind of know some of the people in that community and kind of learn through them what this meant to everybody. And, you know, that won't ever leave me. That's kind of influenced the way I think about some of these cases going forward.

Kevin Greenlee (26:44)

Yeah, I. I think also it's worth making the obvious point that try as we can, there is no way we can change what happened nine years ago. Those girls deserve to be here. There. There's no way we can fix that. There's no way we can undo what happened. But. But maybe one thing we can do is figure out maybe some things that happened in this case or around this case that weren't so good and that maybe we can do better next time. Whether you're in law enforcement or the media or social media. I see as we record, one of the big cases in the country is the purported kidnapping of the mother of today's show, Anchorage, Savannah Guthrie.

Anya Cain (27:39)

Nancy Guthrie. Right.

Kevin Greenlee (27:41)

And I see a lot of social media comments and people on the scene doing their own little investigations. And it just feels to me that I'm seeing the same sort of mistakes that people made in this case. People jumping to conclusions, people interfering with investigations. Hues and cries over, oh, this is the person who did it. And maybe they're not. They didn't do it. There was a person of interest detained the other day in that case, and on the Internet, people falsely identified who that person was at least once or twice. And people who were not detained had their names smeared and splashed all over the Internet. And I think it's time for us to have a conversation. What went wrong here in Delphi? What can we do to make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again to innocent people?

Anya Cain (28:40)

I think that's an important thing. I think the best thing we can do is essentially learn from the true crime side of things. And I think one thing that's important to remember is just, you know, I think there's a powerlessness about being an observer in a case like this and watching things happen. But, you know, we are powerless over this. And the likelihood is that none of us are gonna just, like, sleuth something out in a way that's actually meaningful. The biggest thing any of that will probably do is just put dirt on somebody's name. And do we really want to do that? You know, if we have actionable information in a case, obviously, then that could make a big difference. But in that case, we should just be going directly to law enforcement and not posting about it. I think think before posting, thinking about, what does this add? Does this add anything? Am I kind of smearing somebody or smearing a group of people or whatever, you know, too early, you know, and then the thing is, like, you know, you could. You could have a. You could have your own personal theory or smile. I think maybe this. But, you know, I think what's important is, like, you could be right or you could be wrong. And if you're wrong, how would. How would you feel if somebody was doing that in. In a case you were involved in to you? And I think that's what I try to remember is that, you know, there's no prize for posting something and then turning out to be right. And in fact, there's quite a risk in posting something and turning out to be wrong, and then you've kind of hurt somebody. And it doesn't necessarily always feel that way because that person's very removed from our lives, and it's just like on the Internet. But what's on the Internet is real, and our conduct on the Internet is real and really affects people. And talking to family members in the Delphi case, you know, they went through hell. They went through unimaginable hell for years because they were trying to advocate for their children who had been murdered. And they were put through every kind of like, oh, well, they said this and da, da, da. And oh, oh, she was blinking in this video. And it's like we're basically taking people who've been through the worst imaginable nightmare and then throwing them in an arena like gladiators for our own entertainment and picking them apart. And I just think that's really barbaric. And I think we should not be doing that as a true crime community. I think giving people grace and not having that rush to pick apart everything they said. And, like, listen, if someone then turns out to be a bad actor or whatever, I mean, that's up to police to determine. And that's up to prosecutors to determine, and that's up then to defense attorneys to defend that person and a jury.

Kevin Greenlee (31:34)

To make a decision.

Anya Cain (31:34)

And a jury to make a decision. We don't need to be adding it to the court of public opinion, all of that stuff, you know, And I think when we see creators who are basically making a buck off of doing that, that's something to be highly skeptical about. It doesn't mean. I'm not saying that you cannot, oh, you can't question family members in a case like this. No, I mean, you could think anything you want. I'm just asking, like before, there are clear indications from, you know, people who are actually doing the investigating. Does it really make sense to be kind of picking people apart or saying, oh, they did this or that? I mean, I, I just don't. I don't see especially, I guess, in the early days of an investigation, I just don't really see the benefit of that. I don't know, I just think it leads to a lot of kind of nastiness and just doesn't really add a lot because it doesn't ultimately impact people. What happens in the investigation. I understand with Delphi there was kind of this, you know, years long gap between the murders happening and between a resolution really getting started. And so I understand that, you know, people are going to speculate, and I think that's fine. I think speculation is fine. I don't, I don't have a problem with speculation. I just think speculation should be tethered to some kind of compassion, empathy, and a sense that, hey, what I'm saying right now, I could be totally wrong. And I think if we kind of, you know, dial it back like that a little bit, we can have these conversations and, you know, talk about a case in an interesting way while also remembering that we're talking about real human beings and that, you know, we don't necessarily have to like, go full force on accusing people or saying horrible things about people who, again, if we're wrong, we're just adding to their suffering. So that's what I try to remember. That's what I take away from Delphi. I take away these two beautiful kids who deserved more, deserve to be able to have happy lives. I mean, gosh, they would be out of. I mean, they'd be like in their 20s. They'd be like living life. They could be parents by now. They could be having, you know, having jobs, doing cool stuff. I mean, it just, it's absolutely gutting when you, when you meet the families, when you look at the families when you have those conversations and to kind of know what they missed and what they haven't gotten to do. I mean in the process of writing our book, Shadow of the the Delphi Murders and the Dark side of the American Heartland, we, it just felt like we knew stuff going into it, but just like getting that level of depth was really sobering and upsetting on some level because you just, it, it drives it home, the human tragedy here. But yeah, I think, I think what we can do with a tragedy like this is just try to, you know, not let the true crime, you know, machine take over. I think that's very hard. I mean there's a lot of unfortunately, the incentives being what they are. I think it's going to be difficult to convince a lot of creators to take that approach. But I do think that the audience has voting power and the voting power is literally just ignore people who are not being kind or ethical or good about this stuff. I mean people, you know, the worst thing you can do is not criticize someone. The worst thing you can do is actually just not pay attention to them at all and maybe encourage like minded people to do the same. That is the worst thing you can do to these people. And I encourage in some cases that to be done, you know, and it's not about disagreeing about the outcome of a case. It's not about any of that. It's about conduct and it's about behavior. As what conduct are you engaging in, what behavior are you encouraging from your audience? And if I see that and it's not, it's not to my liking, I just say no, like absolutely not. We don't need to go through this again. Delphi, I think, changed me as a person. I mean I know that sounds crazy, but like I really feel like going through this case is totally coming out the other side. Like I feel like a different per. I mean, what do you think?

Kevin Greenlee (35:46)

It's changed me too. It certainly made me more cynical about a lot of people and their willingness to do immoral or amoral things in order to get attention or a dollar.

Anya Cain (36:04)

Yeah, it seems obvious that we live in a world where especially in the kind of, you know, I think people are treating this like it's the entertainment business. You, you can imagine a lot of people being amoral and just kind of in it for themselves and that. But seeing that up close in such a kind of egregious way like for years and then up close and personal during a month long trial did change the way I Think about a lot of people and changed my level of trust in. And I think I'm a lot more inherently suspicious these days. It's weird though, in a way. It also made me, like, trust more in our audience because I feel like all I heard from our audience, from at least like the majority of our audience for that time was just the most compassionate, thoughtful, like, well thought out, I guess, sentiments possible. And so it just made me grateful for what we have and the community we've tried to build and have built with you. All that made me extremely grateful. But it definitely made me kind of feel like, okay, we're on an island in true crime surrounded by sea monsters. We need to be cognizant of that because, yeah, it's. It's not good out there. But maybe through our audience, maybe through audiences with like minded creators who feel the same way and who have integrity, maybe we could try to evangelize the good word of making a better true crime for the next family that goes through something. What, like what the families of Abby and Libby went through.

Kevin Greenlee (37:47)

Amen.

Anya Cain (37:48)

Yeah. And I just would encourage all of you again, if you're able to. The Memorial Park Fund is a great way to give back to the Delphi community. It's a great way to give back to the children of Delphi. And it's a great way to cement and honor Abby and Libby's legacies. And I think that's important. And if you want to know more about the book or want to know more about the story about what happened, our book is Shadow of the Bridge. It's on audiobook and it's also, you could get the physical book and an E book, so you have options. But if you know someone who's like spouting off misinformation about Delphi, it also might be a good read for them. Most people who do that are not bad people. They just have been basically getting stuff from reading headlines or kind of skimming the news or looking at different comment discussions. We've heard from so many people who said, yeah, that was me. And then I read your book and now I'm like, I know what happened. And so I think, you know, we have to be understanding of people. Oftentimes when people do that, it's just they don't have all the facts. They don't. It's not, it's not malicious. It's more of just not having all the pieces to put the puzzle together. And I think we can be, you know, patient with those people and sort of understand where they're coming from. Anyways, thank you all for listening and.

Kevin Greenlee (39:05)

Thank you so much.

Anya Cain (39:05)

We just want to say our, you know, utter condolences to the families of Abby and Libby and to the community of Delphi.

Podcast Host / Announcer (39:13)

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

Anya Cain (39:33)

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Podcast Host / Announcer (39:57)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.

Anya Cain (40:08)

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.