The Delphi Murders: Post-Trial Patreon Live from November 15, 2024

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Delphi Murders: Post-Trial Patreon Live from November 15, 2024"

Release Date: November 18, 2024

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1. Introduction to the Patreon Live Session

In this special bonus episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee engage directly with their Patreon supporters in a live post-trial discussion about the high-profile Delphi murders case. This session serves as a platform for deeper interaction and feedback from their dedicated community, reflecting on the trial's impact and exploring future directions for the podcast.

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2. Reflections on the Delphi Trial

Best and Worst Moments:

• Kevin Greenlee ([15:09]): "The best part was meeting a lot of very nice people involved or interested in the case. Delphi itself is a town filled with wonderful people."
• Áine Kane ([16:15]): "The worst part was seeing some of what happened to Abby and Libby. It was horrific and difficult to witness."

The hosts recount their experiences during the trial, highlighting the emotional toll of covering such a tragic case. They discuss the human interactions in Delphi, the overwhelming support from locals, and the heartbreaking moments witnessing the victims' suffering.

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3. Feedback and Future Directions for the Podcast

Enhancing Patreon Engagement:

• Kevin Greenlee ([03:05]): "Ad-free episodes, as well as early episodes when possible, and discounted shirts. And we also have a little book club that we call the Red Sheet."
• Áine Kane ([06:20]): "We've been getting conflicting advice. Some want daily episodes, others think that's a bad idea."

The hosts discuss the varying feedback from Patreon patrons regarding live chats and episode frequency. They contemplate incorporating more informal, chat-style episodes while maintaining the show's integrity and empathetic approach to true crime.

Potential Show Enhancements:

• Ideas include weekly discussion episodes, deeper dives into specific cases, and more interactive segments to replicate the engaging atmosphere patrons appreciated during the trial coverage.

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4. Critique of Media Coverage and Misinformation

Media’s Handling of the Trial:

• Kevin Greenlee ([18:58]): "Mainstream media picked up on aspects inaccurately, leading to misinformation."
• Áine Kane ([38:40]): "We have a sea of misinformation about the Delphi case and other true crimes."

The hosts express frustration with how mainstream media and certain true crime content creators handled the Delphi trial, emphasizing the prevalence of misinformation. They advocate for accurate, empathetic reporting and criticize narratives that undermine the truth of the cases they cover.

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5. Interactions with Patreon Patrons

During the live session, Áine and Kevin address numerous questions and comments from patrons, covering topics such as:

• Legal Aspects: Discussions about the defense's strategies, possible appeals, and the role of mental health in the case.
• Impact on Families: Insights into how the families of the victims and the accused are coping post-trial.
• Future Cases: Suggestions for covering other high-profile cases like the Idaho murders or historical crimes.

Notable Patron Questions and Host Responses:

• Kim ([57:41]): "Did they find anything about Richard Allen's behavior prior to the murders?"
  • Kevin Greenlee ([58:00]): "We have interviewed several people who knew him from his childhood and professional life, revealing a complex personality."
• Rosie ([89:03]): "How could the defense have better established reasonable doubt?"
  • Áine Kane ([89:04]): "The defense's strategy was poor and poorly executed, limiting their ability to sway the jury."

These interactions demonstrate the hosts' commitment to addressing their audience's concerns comprehensively and thoughtfully.

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6. Upcoming Book and Continued Case Coverage

Book Project:

• Kevin Greenlee ([103:52]): "Our book, 'Shadow of the Bridge,' is set to release in August, and we’re planning a book tour."

Áine and Kevin reveal their ongoing work on a book that delves deeper into the Delphi case, aiming to provide a thorough, well-researched narrative that complements their podcast coverage.

Expanding to New Cases:

• Jenna ([100:46]): "We hope you cover the Idaho 4 Brian Coburger case when it goes to trial."
  • Áine Kane ([100:46]): "We’re planning to cover more cases like Idaho, focusing on honesty and transparency in reporting."

The hosts express their intention to explore other significant cases, emphasizing their dedication to uncovering the truth and combating misinformation in the true crime genre.

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7. Community and Support Dynamics

Appreciation for Patrons:

• Throughout the session, Áine and Kevin continuously express gratitude towards their Patreon community, acknowledging their support and the meaningful discussions it facilitates.

Building a Respectful and Empathetic Community:

• Kevin Greenlee ([126:02]): "We want sanity restored to true crime. It's possible to ask thoughtful questions without slipping into extremist views."
• Áine Kane ([124:53]): "People are collective traumatized, aware that negative comments can lead to personal consequences."

The hosts emphasize the importance of maintaining a respectful, compassionate community that supports thoughtful discourse over sensationalism.

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8. Conclusion and Takeaways

The Patreon Live session serves as a cathartic space for Murder Sheet hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee to engage with their community post-trial. They reflect on the emotional and professional challenges of covering such a significant case, critique the wider media landscape's handling of true crime, and outline their plans to evolve the podcast's format. The conversation underscores their commitment to empathetic, accurate true crime reporting and the ongoing support from their dedicated Patreon members.

Key Takeaways:

• The Delphi trial was a profoundly impactful event for the hosts, both personally and professionally.
• There's a strong desire to adapt the podcast format to include more interactive and informal elements while preserving the show's integrity.
• Combating misinformation and advocating for truthful, compassionate true crime coverage remains a central focus.
• The upcoming book, "Shadow of the Bridge," promises an in-depth exploration of the Delphi case, with plans for a nationwide tour.

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For those interested in in-depth true crime analysis, legal insights, and compassionate storytelling, this episode of Murder Sheet offers a comprehensive look into the aftermath of a major trial and the hosts' plans to continue delivering quality content.

Transcript

[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls.

[Anya Kane]

So this episode is kind of a bonus episode, isn't it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know what that Means. But sure.

[Anya Kane]

So we have a Patreon and one of the things we do for our Patreon is we have live chats a couple of times a month. And what happens in those chats? People always say, what are these chats like? And basically it's Anya and I in front of a computer screen reading and responding to questions in real time from our beloved Patreons patrons. They're patrons, but they patronize us through the Patreon service.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Very patronizing. No, no, they're wonderful people. It's a very fun group and it's a fun way to connect. You also get a couple other perks, I should note. Ad free episodes, as well as early episodes when possible, and discounted shirts. And we also have a little book club that we call the Red Sheet. So it's, it's fun.

[Anya Kane]

And we're thinking about ripping off Brett and Alice and doing another feature. What's that feature?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we're going to rip off the prosecutors. Sorry, Brett and Alice. And we're going to. They do something that I think is pretty cool. They do live recordings so people can kind of come check, check it out and sort of see the, the process of how episodes get made. So we're going to do something like that where we're going to probably do live recordings and you can see us, I guess, presumably cursing and fumbling over.

[Anya Kane]

Words and at least one of us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Interesting. And you'll find out which one that is.

[Anya Kane]

So we hadn't been able to do one of the Patreon lives for a while because of the trial. So we did an extra one on a couple of days ago and we thought it would be fun to share it with all of you. We've actually gotten a lot of very nice messages from people saying we really loved hearing from you every day during the trial and we miss you. So we thought this would be a way to, for you, hear a little bit more from us. And you had some things to say about that, did you not?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You makes it sound really dramatic. Yeah, no, I. We've gotten so much feedback where people say they're, they're, they. They miss that kind of coverage and we'd love to replicate it in some ways. Obviously, you know, in terms of the deli trial, that's a pretty singular event in many respects and it would be hard to duplicate a high profile trial in Indiana where there's limited camera access and sort of we need to go in and tell you what's going on. But I think, in terms of what I think people might be responding to is that we were a lot less guarded than normal because we were completely sleep deprived and out of our minds. And so what we're going to try to do is just bring a little bit. We're going to, so to speak, like, loosen our ties and without. Without being silly or disrespectful. Just kind of maybe having more of that style going forward on the show in general for all episodes. We did chat episodes prior to trial, but we can bring a little bit more of that energy to them that I think people preferred. And I think one thing we'd be very curious about, about getting feedback from all of you is what, what might you want from the show going forward? You know, people who are sort of saying, we really like that. How could we replicate that in terms of what we do going forward? I was thinking one thing that we might be able to do that might be kind of fun is doing sort of a chat style recurring episode on a. On at least a weekly basis, maybe more if people like it, and having that be discussing big topics and cases that people care about and maybe doing a couple other segments in that. But that could be also a way of replicating it.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, we want to do that because the little.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Whoa.

[Anya Kane]

So we'll leave that in as part of the new loosening the tie policy here at the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What disaster.

[Anya Kane]

But we've been frankly getting a lot of conflicting advice. People say, oh, we would love it. We would love it dearly if you did an episode every single day. And then other people say, oh, the worst thing you could do is do an episode every day because you would wear yourselves out and we'd all get tired of you. And other people, people say, oh, I'd love it even if you just talked about going to the grocery store and other people saying, the last thing we want to hear is nonsense about Kevin at a grocery store. So we get lots of conflicting advice. But we're sure that you guys can help clarify and help us figure out what we should do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, literally, we're begging you for help because we don't. We don't know what to do. And we're very. We're. We're just kind of coming back into this and, you know, trying to. Trying to make the show something worthwhile. And so I, we really. It would mean a lot to us if you could send us an email to murdersheet gmail.com and just let us know, do you like any of the suggestions that we just made? What, what do you think would be Good. And tell us what you want. And we, we will. We're, we're committed to, you know, the style is for me, in some ways less important than the substance of the show, which is going to remain empathetic and compassionate and very much research and fact forward. So none of that is going to change. But if we can be kind of engaging with it in a way, with what we're doing in a way that people enjoy, then we want to do that and sort of emphasize that, and.

[Anya Kane]

We'D like to make some of these changes and give you what you enjoy about the program. I, I will say, I think this week we have some other deli topics we want to discuss. We are going to start talking about other cases, obviously, as we've done in the past. I think this week we'll probably be bringing back the cheat sheet. I think this week probably more a few deli episodes, maybe a few other cases. And I think, actually, I'll say we do have some episodes we recorded before the trial that we will be releasing at some point where we'll be stiff and awkward the way you remember us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The way we are in real life. I would also say that, you know, when it comes to Delphi, that's going to be. We're going to continuously cover that because first of all, there's just a sea of misinformation out there about the trial and what happened in the case in general. So we sort of see it as our, our obligation to continue to raise awareness and focus on the facts there. But we're also interested in kind of going more into other cases like the Idaho murders, things like that.

[Anya Kane]

So, yeah, one thing that occurs to me is there is a sea of information misinformation. There is a sea of misinformation about the Delphi case, but in True Crime right now, there's a number of other cases which are also plagued by a sea of misinformation. So certainly one thing we could do is to try to be a corrective to that in other cases, not just Delphi.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely. And yeah, I guess to conclude, if you like this kind of episode and you're interested, we have, we have Patreon memberships at a number of different levels, starting at $5 a month. And it's really supportive to us, but it also gets you a lot of fun perks and it's a really fun community. It's like, I love hanging out with, with our patrons and we, we just, we really enjoy it when we're not.

[Anya Kane]

In trial, we do these lives two A month.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Although, you know, maybe we'll see what people want going forward.

[Anya Kane]

But you're saying if people say guys don't do the lives at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Stop it. Just stop.

[Anya Kane]

There's every possibility people will listen to this live and it'd be the last episode of the British Feet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think they're gonna bail. Bail really fast.

[Anya Kane]

We talk about Delphi, we talk about other things.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What else did we talk about?

[Anya Kane]

I don't even.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is the problem. We, like, talk and then we, like, black it out. And then. I don't remember what I said, but hopefully nothing too bad. But they're kind of an opportunity for us to talk off the cuff and answer a lot of questions that you might have. So I think that can be help. You know, our rule and patron is like, you know, you can can ask us anything. We won't always answer it, but we mostly answer it.

[Anya Kane]

We mostly answer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would say 95% of the 99.

[Anya Kane]

Maybe 99% of the time we answer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

So with all that said, is it time for us to time travel back to a more innocent time of late last week and join Kevin and Anya? Is they prepare to chat with their Patreon supporters?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I guess it is. What an odd way of saying that. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[Anya Kane]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Kane]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the Delphi Murders Post trial patreon live from November 15, 2024 SA we're live as Kevin darts out of the frame. Hi, everybody.

[Anya Kane]

Hey, everybody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It feels like it's been five years since we saw them all. Thank you guys so much for coming. This. We're really excited about this because we missed doing our Patreon lives during coverage of the Delphi murders trial. I guess to start off with, we want to let you all know that we're probably going to be making this an episode unless things go completely off the rails or we humiliate ourselves or end up, which is, you know, I guess 50, 50 at this point. And we'll be putting it out as an episode to kind of give people a sense and maybe answer some questions. Number one, Kim asks, hey, where's the bookshelves? We're actually recording in a different room than usual, so no bookshelves for now. They. I should just say they all fell down. It was very dangerous. Sort of like our own personal Pompeii. But. But we're. We're all right, but we'll. We'll be restructuring some stuff, so. And Kelly wants to know, have we recovered on sleep? No, no. I mean. I mean, it turns out if you have a bad sleep schedule, it takes a while to recover from that because I was sort of like, why don't I feel normal now? And that's why. But we're. We're getting there, so thank you so much for asking. It's so nice to see so many people here. Like, thank you all for taking the time on a Friday night to come hang out. And. Hi, Andreas, welcome from Germany. And of course, Teresa, Sue, Pam, Christie, Jane, Stephanie, Hel, Maria, Rebecca, Lauren, Kayla, Kristen, Cherie, Kimberly, Sue, Kim, Clinton, another Christie, and then Heidi. Thank you guys so much. I mean, seriously, like, we're really honored to be spending this time with you. And if I lash off, your name. I'm sorry. I really tried to get everyone, but. Hello, Gina. I guess what we're going to do.

[Anya Kane]

Thank you, Sue. Sue says we both look lovely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sue decided to come on here and lie. No, I'm just kidding. Sue, thank you very much. Very sweet. And hi, Tracy. And just let us know what you guys want to talk about. If you've never done a Patreon live with us before or never witnessed one of these. Essentially, it's just two awkward people sort of rambling for like an hour or so. And you can ask us anything. We'll answer your questions about the Delphi murders case, trial coverage, lingering questions you may have. Or anything else.

[Anya Kane]

Anything else we've covered or anything you think we should cover.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And so just, you know, let us know what you'd like us to talk about. Otherwise, this is going to be pretty awkward for, like, an hour. Oh. Christy asks the best part of trial, the worst part of trial. That's a really good question. I. We probably have different answers, right?

[Anya Kane]

We probably do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you go first.

[Anya Kane]

Why don't. Why don't you go first?

[Kevin Greenlee]

All right, so for me, the best part, where we got to meet a lot of very nice people who really either are, you know, involved in some way or I guess, you know, kind of, like, interested in the case. And it was really nice, despite some of the kind of bad stuff happening, to have those moments of, like, human interaction where people were. I sound like a robot talking about this. I enjoyed the human interaction, like, but. But genuinely, I did. There was a lot of just lovely people. And also, Delphi itself is a town filled with wonderful Wonderful people. We got to meet a lot of.

[Anya Kane]

Them, and Delphi is a great place. And I was. So during the trial, we had to, like, go and get in line early in the morning, and then after the trial, we'd have to go and record immediately. So didn't really get a chance to spend time in the city of Delphi other than a court, until after the trial. And so that last week after the trial, the Dre was deliberating. We got to go to a lot of great businesses, meet a lot of terrific people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we went from not eating a lot to eating too much. And, yeah, that's probably my favorite, I'd say.

[Anya Kane]

Worst part, at one point, someone, like, ran us down in the street to give us cookies.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, my gosh, that was so nice. Those ladies, people were just trying to give us food constantly, and it was really sweet, but I. I was so. I was having a hard time managing my anxiety about everything, so I was having trouble eating, but I kept on getting all this wonderful free food, and it was like, oh, my gosh.

[Anya Kane]

That people running you down to give you snickerdoodles.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that was. That was really sweet. So we got to meet a lot of really cool people, people from Delphi, people who are coming to view the trial, talk to some really very cool journalists. Just a lot of people like that. For me, the worst part was definitely just seeing some of what happened to Abby and Libby was horrible. And, you know, you feel like you have to bear witness and not look away because you can't afford to, because it's like, we. The least we can do is talk about what happened to these girls and sort of how horrific and how serious and what they went through, because I feel like it's cowardly to do anything else. But at the same time, it was horrible. So that really affected me. And I imagine. I mean, if it affected me that much, I imagine for people who knew them, who were in the courtroom for their families, my heart goes out to them because it was. It was very. It was difficult to see.

[Anya Kane]

It was disturbing. We had been leaked some crime scene pictures a little over a year ago, and they were not as graphic as what was shown in court.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I had to leave that one of the sessions, or I guess I just didn't come back. And I just kind of got out of there because I just couldn't handle it. So I felt bad about that. But it was. Yeah, it was just.

[Anya Kane]

Gotta take care of yourself.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not really taking care of myself. It's just, like freaking out, which is not what I want to do, but.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, you weren't freaking out?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I kind of feel like I was, but, yeah. So there was some pretty bad sides to it as well. Hi, Wendell and Donna and Lauren and Rebecca. Aw, thank you, Jay.

[Anya Kane]

What does Jay say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jay says, you guys are my literal heroes. Stoked to be a new follower. They worked in federal law enforcement and was feeling insane for a while regarding the Richard Allen coverage. Jay, that means a lot. Thank you so much. Like, seriously, I mean, we've been. We. We sort of have at times when we were there at the trial, felt like we were losing our minds too, because I felt like some of the coverage was so incorrect.

[Anya Kane]

Felt like other people who were reporting on it were watching a different trial.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

And I didn't understand that. And I would be in line and talking to people and I'd say, oh, it's a pretty strong case the prosecution is making.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they'd be like, no, it's not.

[Anya Kane]

No, it's not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We'd be like, huh? And, like. And people can disagree strongly. And we're not, like, saying, no, we're the only ones who are right. You can't have a different opinion. But some of what was literally being described to the public was just not happening or, like, not accurate. And so we, at times, we would sit down with each other, Jay, and just be like. Like, are we totally, like, wrong, or are we just, like, losing it? Like, are we somehow, like, in some sort of, like, reality warped filter? Because it just. It was. It was the weirdest, weirdest thing.

[Anya Kane]

See, if someone is covering an event, if they cover it well, the people who are taking in that coverage should not be surprised by how that event ends. And I think a lot of people who were covering it, they left their audience surprised by what was happening and what the final verdict was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sort of like a sports game. This is the. This is a. Any sport, whatever your favorite sport is. Let's go with, like, you know, baseball. If one team's getting a bunch of home runs and then you're in the sixth inning and, you know, you can kind of like, you can say, well, the other team could, I guess, feasibly catch up. But this is. This is looking one way, but it's almost as if you're covering that baseball game and sort of saying, like. Kind of like glossing over the home runs but saying, oh, well, that other team, they look pretty handsome in their uniforms. And then suddenly, you know, we get to the end and it's like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe that team won. It's like they were the head the whole time.

[Anya Kane]

And one thing that was interesting was we would occasionally be in line next to other people who were covering the case on various forms of social media. And I remember one time in particular we got into a conversation with one of these people and we were talking about a cross examination that had happened the day before. And we all agreed Brad Rosie did not do a very good job of it and the defense really wasn't doing that good and this person was agreeing with us. And then we saw later that day, that person went on YouTube. It's like Brad Rosie's like Clarence Darrow. It's amazing to see. And so it feels like some people were making the conscious decision not to tell the truth about what they saw.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was genuinely upsetting because I felt like we were like, it was just. You're getting drowned out by all of this. And we were just like, oh, like I don't know. Anyways, thank you so much for your question. And let's see. Go on. Sometimes I have to refresh the questions because they get spliced together and I don't want to do the wrong thing. You picked the next one. Kevin. This is a PSA or public sock announcement.

[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Kane]

Christy refers to the podcast the Viper Pit. We mentioned them before. They did an episode about Delphi that I listened to. It was fun.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did you almost call them the Piper Vit?

[Anya Kane]

That's what I had to put up with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's see, I'll ask. Oh, we'll do Pam's question. Pam has a question which is why do you think the resource officer was not called to testify? I always wondering why he did not see Richard Allen as suspicious himself. So if that's referring to Department of Natural Resources in Officer Dan Doolin, he was called to testify.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, he was there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm looking for Kevin for assurance to make sure I didn't hallucinate that he did testify. He was a witness for the prosecution and they, they didn't really get into why he didn't sort of remind the investigators of sort of who he had invest who he talked to. Although this is conjecture, so please, like just this is where I was putting it together so I could be totally wrong. From the testimony, it almost sounded like he was running around and doing a bunch of interviews in the early days of the investigation. And it may have been one of those things where he genuinely just sort of went on to the next thing and it was not ever top of mind for him again until he was reminded of it, which is, you know, I think when you have like a kind of a ongoing situation like that, we'd all like to think, well I would definitely remember that, but seems like there were a lot of different agencies trying to help at first and it may have been a situation where it just there was so much going on that it never really and one thing it's important to note I it was always unclear to me like who made the mistake about Richard Allen's name sort of writing down Richard Allen Whiteman rather than Richard Allen. Of course he lived on Whiteman Drive at the time. So it was a clerical error. And it sounds like that error came from dispatch. It did not come from Doolin himself. And in fact he tried to correct it but somehow that error remained and it also had the tip shown as cleared, which was an error. So we got a little more clarity on what, what happened with that issue, which in some ways is the most significant error of the entire investigation. But I feel like I still have some questions, but I hope that answers yours as best as we can. Is that your sense or was I just writing weird fanfiction?

[Anya Kane]

No, that was my sense, too. We do still have a lot of questions about different things that happen. We're going to try to get answers for them for our book and for.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The show if we can.

[Anya Kane]

And if you guys have questions that you'd like to see answered, let us know and we will try to do what we can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we've gotten some emails and some Patreon messages already. And so that's something. Just keep them coming. Because if we can add clarity or if we already have clarity but want to, you know, need to present it in a more in a way that people can understand better, we would like to do that. Maria has a super thoughtful question. Do you have a sense of how the German Patti family and the Williams families are doing? Do you know if the families agreed that Richard Allen is the killer or if any sided more with the defense team?

[Anya Kane]

I don't feel comfortable speaking for the families, but I think it's pretty fair to say that virtually everyone in that courtroom was convinced that Richard Allen killed these girls.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I mean, there were a lot.

[Anya Kane]

Of YouTubers who probably that's why I say virtually everyone. And to be honest, I mentioned a moment ago somewhat of someone who's covered the case on YouTube saying one thing to us and then saying something else publicly. I suspect that the people, a lot of the people covering the case, YouTube, also believed that they were guilty. Another one of these people covering it on YouTube, I said to them, what do you expect to happen in this trial? Do you expect a conviction? And she said, yes, I'll say this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maria, and again, thank you for asking about the families because I imagine this was incredibly traumatic and horrible for them. Even if it did lead to an outcome that had a conviction, I would say that I think we'll probably be able to know more about how they're feeling once the gag order lifts after December 20th and they're able to kind of come forward and then maybe we will hear, you know, how they feel or, you know, were they convinced and whatnot. But for the time being, it's just, it's not something we necessarily know. Kristen asks, what do you make of Kathy Allen saying this is far from over denial? So Kathy Allen news outlets reported that as she left the courtroom, she made a statement saying something like, this is Far from over.

[Anya Kane]

I think a lot of it could be that she could be getting bad information from those close to her. There could be attorneys or others exaggerating the chances that an appeal would be successful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. One thing that we've heard from the wider. Would you say, like, Indiana legal community is that there's been a lot of bluster from this defense team for a long time, namely, like, we're going to get him acquitted, the case is going to fall apart, the charges are going to be dropped. And if she's in an environment where she's being bombarded with that messaging around an appeal, you can understand that perhaps she's in a situation where she doesn't. She's not convinced that her husband is guilty, and she may just feel that, like, I just need to, you know, do what these people are suggesting and stick, you know, and it's. It's. It's a very sad situation. I know that sort of. We've seen kind of people who are basically YouTube content creators sort of also insinuate their way into the Allen family circle in a very visible way in court. And I just. I hope. I really hope that at the end of the day, I mean, it's. It's a. It's a tragedy all around when you have families who. Who lose somebody, whether that's because they lost somebody because they were murdered or lost somebody because they committed a horrible crime. And it's just. It is a very genuinely sad situation to me. Tracy said, I can barely manage Costco. Anya, you get my respect for managing your anxiety in that setting. Managing is doing a lot of lifting in that, Tracy, but thank you very much.

[Anya Kane]

Anya has some issues with anxiety, but she really works hard, and it is something that causes me to have such respect and admiration for her. And if you saw her behind the scenes, you would all love her even more than you do now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, I was a complete wreck. No, I. That's very sweet, Kevin, and thank you, Tracy. I don't feel like I deserve that much credit. It just. In this case, honestly, sometimes when you're in a negative situation, you sort of don't really have time to be as anxious about things until it explodes in your face in a big way randomly later on. But I really appreciate that. It. You know, it's. You know, it's. We feel like in this case, we owed it to all of you and to the families of victims and to the girls and just everyone that we needed to tackle it as. With as much gusto as we could, because it. It Was like a situation where it had been playing on tv, you know, like, okay, well, everyone can see what's going on. That's fine. We can all draw our own conclusions and be informed. And it became clear early on that, like, that's it, there's going to be a lot of spin. And we kind of wanted to cut through that, I guess. Let's see. Teresa says, at one point, I thought Kevin was saying the worst part was that someone tried to run over them in the street. No, that did not happen.

[Anya Kane]

Are you sure?

[Kevin Greenlee]

If someone was trying to run over us, it was probably because we were jaywalking. So I think we probably brought that on ourselves.

[Anya Kane]

We got a parking ticket.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We did get a parking ticket.

[Anya Kane]

We deserved it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We deserved it. I'm not mad about it. It was my fault and I own up to that. And I'm not gonna, you know, I mean.

[Anya Kane]

Well, it was kind of my fault too, because Anya parked and she probably thought, well, she's parking illegally. Isn't this interesting? But I didn't say anything to you. I should have said, let's move the car.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Whoops. This is. I remember I got pulled over speeding up to Peru, Indiana for a Keg and Klein hearing. So my car mishaps continue. But I definitely deserve that.

[Anya Kane]

Definitely deserved it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Jenna said so. Happy to be here for so many years. I was worried there'd never be a post trial anything. And here we are. Jenna, I think we were all in that boat. We were all in that boat at some point in this case. So I completely.

[Anya Kane]

You didn't even expect the trial to happen in October, did you?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I was one of the kind of like, ah, they're gonna put it off, they're gonna continue it. Frankly, that might have been a not a bad idea. So for the defense, the defense team.

[Anya Kane]

Was woefully underprepared for this, in my judgment.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, absolutely. Kristen asks, how will idoc, Indiana Department of Correction, be able to keep Richard Allen safe going forward? Solitary forever. Is that allowed? I don't know. These are good questions. We'd have to kind of run that by people who are familiar with sort of the policies and procedures there.

[Anya Kane]

And we're trying to get some interviews with people like that to explain. Yeah, I'm concerned he poses a real issue because he often does have suicidal behavior. He behaved in extreme ways. And also people like him who are convicted of these crimes are not very.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Popular in prison, in gen pop. You know, someone who's a predator who goes after kids is, is the lowest of the low and is subject to severe injury or even death at the hands of other inmates. So I feel like a conversation about how do we handle someone in that situation where we can kind of ensure that they're safe without necessarily putting them in a situation where their mental health could suffer one way or another is an important one. And I would like to kind of keep having that and maybe bring some people in, because I think that's a worthy conversation in this case. Has certainly raised a lot of questions around that. Ed says. Love you guys. Oh, thanks, Ed. You did amazing. I can tell you once the coverage was over. I miss you guys.

[Anya Kane]

Thank you, Ed. And you have something to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have something to say, Ed. Well, I don't know. I don't want to sound all excited, I guess. I guess.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. People hate it when you sound excited.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People like, really downbeat. Anya, I guess we. We really enjoyed kind of communicating with you guys nightly as well as kind of fun and, you know, I mean, I say fun, and then I'm, like, crying. In half the episodes, you get to listen to a podcast or a lot.

[Anya Kane]

Of people saying they enjoyed it. We were a little bit less formal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

More ourselves.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We were more ourselves. The sleep deprivation stripped away a lot of layers of, you know, trying to seem, you know, fancy or whatever.

[Anya Kane]

And so do we normally try to seem fancy? Trying to seem like, I never recorded without my monocle.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Never do. But I would say that we are interested in, you know, maybe exploring some options about maybe not a nightly show, but maybe a weekly show where it is a longer and a little bit more informal where we can discuss topics. Now, I don't know if people just more have enjoyed it because it was sort of event reporting on a trial or if people enjoyed it more because our personalities were coming out. I don't know. Don't let us know. Let us know what you think. Don't you. Don't do it in the comments, because then it'll just, you know, get. But, like, you can email us, you can message us, let us know what you think, because we'd like to kind of keep that vibe going. Because I think it was. It was. It was night. It was nice for us, too. And it seems like a lot of people did enjoy that. And so I guess we're just kind of like, trying to see.

[Anya Kane]

You get a lot of messages from people who say they were disappointed when it stopped. Like, it just suddenly cut off. And, yeah, people say, I like to listen to you in the mornings when I was getting ready to go to Work.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I'm like, maybe we do something like live on Patreon or something and then like set it. Like we could figure something out. But I think also we'd want to know like what topics work. Is it just any topic or would it be preferable to have like trials? And is it something where, yeah, like what are people getting out of it? And then we can kind of see how we can incorporate that into our recording schedule because it was, it was nice to kind of be able to kind of almost talk to you guys a lot. So we enjoyed it too and we kind of miss it. So let us know and we can kind of figure, figure that out together on how to move forward. But, but yeah, let's see. Christy says, do you guys think we will ever really know about Richard Allen in his life? Maybe that's the goal.

[Anya Kane]

Lauren says we probably will at the sentencing hearing. I imagine we will get a lot more information about Richard Allen. The sentencing hearing. I feel we got some information about him at the, at the trial because I feel like the defense had some therapists and doctors who painted a pretty interesting picture of him. And it was not a flattering picture.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Kane]

A person who was so riddled with anxiety and self doubt that he would like be curled up into a ball very regularly and need his wife to come and make him feel better about himself.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that's not necessarily like that alone. If you're not hurting anybody, you're more hurting yourself. So I don't, you know, I get.

[Anya Kane]

That and it's the basis of our marriage.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm also anxious, depressed and completely dependent on my spouse. And I mean it's, it's one of those things. I think people can understand some of those issues for sure, but I think all of us can also see how maybe those issues could lead someone down a path of extreme resentment. You know, if they're, if they feel dependent on other people, that can. Gratitude is not always the kind of the way forward. Sometimes people become resentful. So it kind of was like someone feels that they have no power. They might seek to exert power over others and that could be very bad, obviously. Hi Ms. Ian, thanks for joining us. And oh, this is. Rebecca says the Richard Allen sympathizers would then criticize other people for being biased. That was bananas. Yeah, it's one of those things where I'm like, you know, at this point, you know, we've, we've told you our opinions on the case. So I mean, we're biased. We're, we're, you Know, we. I feel like it's one of those.

[Anya Kane]

Things where I'm like, I don't think we're.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think we're biased because, like, if you told me tomorrow, like, a whole trove of information about why we're wrong and like, this is. He was wrongfully convicted, then I would. I would be like, oh, gosh, okay. Sorry about that. You know, that would change my opinion. But these other folks who are doing this, it's like they decided early on that they wanted it. Him to be innocent and. And just no matter what, like, it felt like.

[Anya Kane]

And they're blaming other people with much less evidence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

Than there is against Richard.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it was just ridiculous. And I was like, you know, I'm biased towards the facts and the truth. If I see one side presenting that and then the other side just doing this, oh, look over here thing. Shiny keys. Like, I felt like they were. Like they brought. They were about, like, 10 minutes away from breaking out a laser pointer and, like, trying to, like, distract the jury, like they're a bunch of cats, you know?

[Anya Kane]

And I was skeptical of the case against Richard Allen in the beginning. When the probable cause affidavit was released, I wasn't impressed. I think you should be skeptical when you first get news of an arrest. You should ask a lot of questions. I wasn't sure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I wasn't sure. I think I became more like, maybe like, okay, well, maybe he did do this earlier than you did. But I think I went back and forth a few times, and that's why we never really talked about our opinion, because sometimes it would change sort of randomly, and it was sort of like, well, we just don't know, so we're just going to go forward.

[Anya Kane]

And ultimately, the question was rather. The question was not whether or not he did it. The question is whether or not the prosecution would be able to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. And I got to the stage of thinking he probably did it before I thought they would be able to prove it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that's. That's fair. And then Wendell asks, was the defense expert that talked about the phone an FBI analyst, or did I misunderstand that we missed that session?

[Anya Kane]

That was the one session.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That was the one session we both missed.

[Anya Kane]

That was the session where they had seating rules set up throughout the trial. And we, through those seating rules, we were good for the entire day. And at, like, 11:45, they changed the seating rules for the afternoon. So we got out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Kristin asked, have we found anyone who actually knows Richard Allen, personally or professionally. Literally, anyone who could speak about what type of person he is, et cetera. We actually interviewed a few. Some of them have episodes on the show. I think we talked to people who knew him as a child, and we also talked to people who knew him through his work at cbs. And mostly it was the sort of traditional. He was very quiet. Some people talked about how he had a, you know, a sense of humor, he could be quite funny. And then one coworker talked about how she felt that he was a bit of a control freak around her, and it caused issues between them and. But nothing to the point where you'd be concerned beyond that. Kelly. Oh, Kelly has a. Kelly wants the tea. Okay. I'm curious about how much of the inside information you received over the years ended up being true and confirmed in trial. All of it.

[Anya Kane]

We have really, really good sources. And so the information we had and that we reported on was all true. And keep in mind, you have to actually listen to the episodes in what we say, because sometimes people say, oh, murder sheet said this and we didn't say it. The biggest example I can think of is this red Jeep thing. We said Keg and Klein is a known liar. But for what it's worth, Keg and Klein, the known liar, is telling people that he was sitting in a red Jeep when someone else was committing the murders. And we were not saying that's what happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're saying that's what he told police.

[Anya Kane]

And he did tell police that, and that was confirmed in the hearing over the summer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Over the summer, there was the three day hearing. And I remember it was such a surreal moment because I, I'm not gonna lie, we've gotten so much flack over that report where people are like, well, these are the people who brought to you the red Jeep and the murder sheets. And then suddenly. Rosie, Brad, Rosie, defense counsel is crossing Dave Vito. No, I'm sorry. He brought. He. He calls Dave Vito, one of the detectives for the state police up. And then suddenly they're talking about the red Jeep. And I'm like. I feel like I was just like tripping because it was like this thing that had just been this whole, like, I don't know, it all came out and it was like, yes, he did tell police that. And it's all documented. We really, we really try to, when we're doing original reporting like that, we really try to be careful so that we're not putting anything out there that turns out it's like, you know, sand rather than cement. We want it to be what, very concrete.

[Anya Kane]

Like, what are you talking about?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm very tired. We want it to be like, really solid, I guess is what I'm saying. And so it's a couple, you know, I, I feel like looking back, I mean, there might be details here or there that we eventually need to go back and correct. I don't know. But I, I, there's not been anything where I've been like, oh my gosh. Because if there was, we would go back and also make a big deal of it on present day episodes saying, hey, remember when we said that we were wrong? Because part of journalism, it's, you want to be perfect, but if you can't be perfect, you have to be honest about your mistakes. And so if we are ever brought to our attention, like you guys said this and this was totally wrong, we are committed to going back and sort of eating as much crow as we need to and saying this was wrong. We goofed. Sorry. Here's what happened because I, that's how you, you make a mistake. I believe in maintaining trust by at least acknowledging that and noting it so people can go forward knowing the real truth.

[Anya Kane]

And we really did try to share as much of that inside information, for lack of a better word with you all. We tried to share as much of that as we could. You know, some issues, sometimes you have to protect your sources. And if I, for instance, if you tuned into a podcast and you heard someone say, oh, Kevin Greenlee talks in his sleep and hears the things he says and what an idiot, and the way he snores, you'd have to think, well, the only person who would know that would be Anya. And so situations like that where if you, if you reveal certain information, you might be giving away your sources, we had to hold stuff back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm gonna, I'm gonna meet some reporter in a parking garage to have a discussion about your sleeping habits. See, Jay said mainstream media picked up on that too. I read one that made it sound like for sure the headphone jack was physically manipulated per expert testimony, and then said, oh, well, the prosecution disagrees. Jay. This has been the nightmare of my life. Seeing that unfold in real time. It seemed like there was not a lot of skepticism at all from the mainstream media. From the mainstream media. And I am such as long term listeners know, I am such a media nerd. I love the media. I am like, from when I was small, I've like worshiped journalists and journalism. And it was disheartening at times to see some of that break Down a little bit because I felt like it would be like, well, an expert said it. It's like, I could come in and call myself an expert about whatever. That doesn't really.

[Anya Kane]

We're thinking of doing an episode. Episode next week on why did the media get this wrong? Yeah, I think because the coverage of the case was not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it's not everybody. Some journalists did a great job. Some journalists were actually sleeping in their cars outside to get in there every day. And, like, they deserve credit. And it's. We're not saying, oh, the media's. The media is. Is like.

[Anya Kane]

We're very nuanced.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's. It's very nuanced. It's not, like, malicious. It's more of just sloppiness, in my opinion.

[Anya Kane]

And we're also thinking about doing an episode next week. People said a lot of kind words about the episode we did, summarizing the evidence. We might do an episode like that about Odinism, because people seem to have a lot of questions about Odinism and what was claimed by the defense and why it wasn't allowed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if you guys have any suggestions on kind of big picture episodes like that, let us know, because I feel like it. You know, we could all get mad at, like, oh, people are spreading misinformation. But, like, maybe instead of, like, we could just get. We could just correct it or say, hey, here's. Here's how we think about this, and maybe start more of a conversation. Tracy has a great question. Do you think the defense greatly misled Richard Allen's family? Like, they anticipated a not guilty verdict?

[Anya Kane]

We can't know for sure, but I can certainly tell you that behind the scenes, even in other contexts, we were hearing constantly about how confident the defense was they were going to blow everybody away with a super case and get some slam bang. Thank you, ma'am. Acquittal, whatever that is, not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't say that. I regret that we're gonna release this to the general public. Kevin.

[Anya Kane]

We did. We did. We would do events and we would talk to people and then they would say, oh, I know you covered the Delphi case. You know, the defense team is so confident. People who.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it was really. It was.

[Anya Kane]

So I have to imagine there's a good chance that they shared those sentiments with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Family. And that. That concerns me because I. I think when I listen, when you hear a lawyer, an expert, someone who's tasked with this say something like that, it's meaningful. It makes. It makes. I mean, that would understandably make a lot of us say well, okay. And I. I just. I. I don't know why anyone would be saying that given the facts of this case. So it concerns us for sure. Clinton asks a great question. What price of what, what evidence, what piece of evidence or testimony was the gotcha moment for y'all? Or was it a series of witnesses or evidence? Excellent question. For me, it was the series. It was really like the totality of it, where it was just kind of a pile of rocks stacking up. And I kept on being like, well, that alone doesn't really go. That's not enough. And then, like, then there'd be another thing and another thing, and I just felt like I was getting buried under it all. And that's. That's what tipped it for me.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I would agree with that. It was like wrapping somebody or binding someone with, like, thread where the first. Oh, just the first layer of thread. Yeah. That's not a big deal. But eventually, as they get wrapped more and more in this. In this thread, they're just completely helpless.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I would. I would say that's. Yeah. Let's see. Ed says if everyone is watching the same thing, the reporting should all be similar based on the same facts. This has been crazy. They needed cameras and allow you guys more access. Agreed with both of those things, Ed. Thank you. I think especially the cameras, because then people at home could kind of make up their minds too. I think if. If people have been able to see this, there would not have been the same level of confusion. And as Kevin said, like, when you're reporting on an out on an event and everyone in your audience is shocked by the outcome, you. You goofed. I mean, like, even if you personally think, well, I don't know if it's enough for me if everyone is listening and saying, I can't believe they did, then somebody goofed, because it's not. It's not good. Let's see. Sharice says, my Christmas wishes. I do not want to hear any blow by blow by YouTubers every time the new defense of Richard Allen's paperwork just filed. Yeah, that's. That's been. That's definitely been part and parcel of this experience. Heidi asks, do you think that the attorneys on either side were listening to the coverage of the case after hours? And if so, did it affect how they presented their case?

[Anya Kane]

I can tell you, at the very least that the defense attorneys seem to have a great deal of interaction in the courthouse and around the courthouse with some of the law tubers covering the case. From a defense point of view, we.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Saw, we saw one of the defense attorneys hand one of the YouTubers a post it note right in front of us. I mean it wasn't, it wasn't subtle.

[Anya Kane]

We went out to get a sandwich once and in the corner of the restaurant the defense team was eating lunch with a YouTuber.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was not subtle and like, if that's what they want to do, okay. It seems to me like it was more about getting around the gag order than anything else because like you could have people run your talking points for you. But I worry that they kind of adopted a YouTube strategy that maybe didn't serve their client that well. And as for the prosecution, this ties into Kristen's question. Do you think Nick McLean was listening to your coverage, aka Bridge Guy Starter kid? So I, I, in, in my sort of fugue state, you know, sleepy mode, made a comment at some point, I guess that Alan had a bridge guy starter kit in his house and that actually McLean said that in his, in his, in his closing. But I, I have a feeling, and maybe I'm wrong, but I don't necessarily think that the prosecution team was tuning in to listen to Murder Sheet.

[Anya Kane]

They had a lot going on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They had a lot going on. My guess is that perhaps that just sort of after I said that that kind of was everywhere in the Delphi community. It's possible that they just.

[Anya Kane]

Aren't you proud of yourself?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know if you guys know this, but I'm a bit of an influencer. No, I, I think in all honesty, it was probably picked up through osmosis rather than actually tuning in. Because if I were, then the last thing, if I were them or the defense attorneys, the last thing I would want to do is listen to some sleep deprived jokers ranting about what I just experienced. Is that fair to say?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Or you not. But you should listen. Definitely download and subscribe. But I mean, like, I don't know, I don't, I don't feel like they were, I don't feel like any, any of the parties.

[Anya Kane]

I don't know. The thing is, I don't know. I do know in another occasions when we have covered court hearings, we have in detail, we have afterwards heard from some of the attorneys in those hearings who told us that listening to us describe what happened in such detail was cathartic for them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's true.

[Anya Kane]

So I don't know if that happened in this case, but it has happened in other cases. That's true because a lot of these attorneys don't even get mentioned that much. In press coverage.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. So I don't know. Maybe they did. Maybe it just kind of entered the osmosis of the case. Jenna says, this may be a dumb question, but if Richard Allen confesses to his defense team, is it illegal for them to say he's innocent? Can they only try to lessen the sentence at that point? Jenna, that is not a dumb question. That is probably a question that most non attorneys would immediately think of when they hear somebody's client is confessing 61 times. Can you answer it, Mr. Attorney, Kevin Attorney, or Kevin Greenlee, attorney at law?

[Anya Kane]

Why did that make you laugh?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know. I just think it's great.

[Anya Kane]

Attorneys aren't allowed to knowingly put on false information. So, for instance, if Anya says, Kevin, I stole 10 boxes of cereal, I can't put her on the stand and have her say otherwise, because then I'm putting. Knowingly putting perjury on the stand in front of the court. So it limits their options as to what they can present, assuming that they believe it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So here's an exception. Would be, is if I'm ranting and having some mental health episode, and I tell Kevin that he can order a competency hearing, because if he doesn't believe me, maybe there's a mental health thing going on.

[Anya Kane]

Or if Anya confesses to me, but she also says, I know they didn't read me my rights. I can then defend her. Say, oh, they didn't read Anya her rights, or they. The investigation was flawed. I can make other defenses. I just can't knowingly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You guys. Yeah, yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Why?

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you guys enjoy legal thrillers, courtroom dramas, there's a wonderful Jimmy Stewart film called Anatomy of a Murder. And in that, it has. He is a former prosecutor who turns defense attorney, and he gets a case. It's very. It's a very good film.

[Anya Kane]

And my understanding is that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Fine, go ahead.

[Anya Kane]

My understanding is that that movie may have been discussed in some point on a podcast called Mystery to Me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are. Are you done?

[Anya Kane]

I'm done.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are you happy now? So there's a scene in that where Jimmy Stewart is. He has his new client, and he's almost subtly discouraging him, like, I don't want to know. Almost like, what happened? Kind of like. Like, don't tell me anything because that will limit my ability to defend you. Yeah, so it. There's a scene like that where you can kind of get the sense of the gray area. Clinton says, I'm about to drive to Delphi for a biscuit.

[Anya Kane]

I swear, you should do that. You should do that. Ever since we've gotten back, I have crazily. All through the night, I'm not with my lantern. I'm not going around looking for an honest man. I'm going around looking for a good biscuit. I'm dragging Anya with me, trying to find good biscuits, biscuits that were anywhere near as good as those biscuits in Delphi. And I've not had any luck.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Biscuits were so.

[Anya Kane]

I miss those biscuits.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I missed the biscuits, too. That was. Yeah, that was a. That was.

[Anya Kane]

Go to Delphi and get those biscuits.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I'm not.

[Anya Kane]

They gave us mugs, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, they did give us.

[Anya Kane]

Show them one of the mugs.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They were super nice there, too. Like, you should go say hi to them. Let me see.

[Anya Kane]

They gave us mug.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They gave us a mug. They're super nice and so strong. Strong recommend. Emily says, tell us more about Richard Allen nodding at the end. Was he possibly telling Kathy he was guilty and I told you I was guilty? What do you think was happening in that moment? If that was at the verdict? We did not make it in that day. There was a lot of nodding going on with Richard Allen. There was pointing at us. There was. He nodded at Kevin at one point after the pointing incident. He was. He was nodding a lot. So I don't know if we can read too much into that without asking him, hey, how did you feel in that moment? He was. He was doing a lot. He was squirming in his seat at times. At other times, he was very stoic. So it. It's just really hard to say. Let's say. Oh. Anne asks, at what point were you both confident in Richard Allen's guilt? I would say the van certainly cemented it for me. That kind of was sort of a. I don't know. Certainly a pretty big moment for the prosecution.

[Anya Kane]

I would agree with that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But for me, it almost just cemented what I'd already been hearing the whole time. I guess that was sort of where I was. Maybe. Maybe that was like a. The Rubicon pointing overt turn. Kim asks Dr. John Mas, hidden True Crime, a clinical psychologist who's worked in the prison system for over 20 years. A very insightful analysis. The crime, the type of personality Richard Allen probably has. His wife Lauren was in Delphi for the trial. Yes, we met Lauren, so we have not.

[Anya Kane]

We've been very busy, so we have not. To be honest, we've not watched a second of Hidden True Crime. But we did talk a lot with Lauren and Delphi, and she was intelligent and insightful and Very important. Impressive. And she had someone there working with her. I don't know if we're allowed to say her name.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Grayson. I'm gonna say it's Grayson.

[Anya Kane]

She took amazing notes. And not only did she take amazing notes, they were, like, color coded.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They were. I told. I've made this joke in person to people. They were like the illuminated manuscript of notes. It was beautiful. Grayson. Lauren and Lauren's whole team were class acts. And I felt like they came into the trial with a really open mind and a dedication to come out and really just do a good job. And I feel like they succeeded, and they were absolutely a pleasure to speak to. And so I was really. I cannot wait to dive into some of hidden true crime, because, again, we haven't had the time.

[Anya Kane]

But I know I was very impressed with them. Had some very interesting conversations with them. And I think it's an interesting example, too, because they, as far as I know, they had not covered.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, they hadn't. They're super respectful about it.

[Anya Kane]

So they came in with an open mind and did an intelligent, commendable job.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I was really impressed. And so, yeah, I think a lot of our audience were listening to us and them. And I was like, heck, yeah. Because just what we saw in the courtroom was absolutely. They were doing it right.

[Anya Kane]

Like I said, when you're standing out line, when you're standing out line, when you're standing outside in line with people for hours, you get to know them. You get a good, good sense of them. And good people. Very good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Very, very nice people. Ah, let's see. Rosie says, hi, everyone. I'm late. That's okay, Rosie. Don't worry about it. And thank you so much for coming. Missy Ann asks, Kevin is nothing if not a purveyor of fan fiction.

[Anya Kane]

I've got some good ones. I probably shouldn't share them, but I've got some good ones.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Most of his fanfiction is serial theft, though. Thank you, someone seeing through the ruse. Finally. My favorite thing is people now email us, like, why do you guys talk about cereal so much? Ask this man.

[Anya Kane]

People in person were asking, anya, what is it with you and cereal?

[Kevin Greenlee]

What's with you and cereal? It's like, oh, my gosh. Ruined my life. My whole reputation is all about cereal now. Kim says, I was so happy to see they had no doubt of Rich Allen's guilt after seeing the evidence. Should I say the rest of this?

[Anya Kane]

Sure, sure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why not? Who cares? I think Bob Mata tried to gaslight them, but they didn't fall for it. They talked about the horrible treatment reporters like you have received. Yeah, I mean, it's been. It's been a mess, but. But, yeah, I just appreciate seeing people come into it and sort of taking it very seriously and doing a great job reporting on it. And it was a pleasure to see because, you know, that, that didn't. That was maybe the exception to the rule rather than what everyone was doing. Certainly.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I thought it was great. It's not like you have to have started covering the case on day one. And it's not like you can't do good work even if you're a YouTuber. Yes, they came on very late in the game. They did really fine work.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, you don't. It's like you don't need to have all of the context. You just have to come in with an open mind and hear everything. And that's what they did.

[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Clinton asks, do you think they will release Allen's two police interviews or will someone have to file a FOIA to get them?

[Anya Kane]

Someone may have to file a FOIA to get them. What I would hope is that when those interviews are released to the public, as they should be, I would hope that they are unedited because what was played. Why are you laughing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because it was so weird in the courtroom.

[Anya Kane]

There were things that were cut out and we can speculate about what some of those things were. I'm pretty sure they must have asked them about the clients, for instance, and that was cut out. And other things were cut out. It was one very jarring edit. This is what I mean.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can we recreate it? It's like we're talking here normally and then Suddenly we're screaming. It was like. It was just like the most jarring, like, okay, what's going on? And then suddenly, like, everyone's yelling.

[Anya Kane]

And I. I think I would also hope that the recordings of the confessions made over the phone should be released to the public, because it is the voice of Richard Allen on those phone calls that is, to me, most similar to the voice of Rich Guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I concur. Hearing Allan say again and again, Ricky in his, you know, you're calling, you know, a correctional institute. That. That was very similar, as were the calls, as was the interview with Steve Mullen and Tony Liggett.

[Anya Kane]

The interview. His voice in the interview with Steve Mul. Steve, his voice in the interview with Jerry Holman was a little bit different from his voice in the other.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree just a little bit. But, yeah, the one with Holman is where it goes from zero to 60 in terms of the energy in it. Although it's then kind of funny because then there was an, you know, kind of after he's arrested, then suddenly it kind of dies back down and it's. It's so. It just, I would think, would be super interesting for everyone to see all of that. Looks like some of these comments are getting squished together. So I'm going to go. I'm going back. Here we go. Let's see. Rebecca says it feels like no one close to Kathy Allen will be truthful and honest with her. I really hope that that's not the case, Rebecca, but it would be very unfortunate if that was what was happening. And I am heartened to see that she does have an attorney. And so I think there's definitely opportunities for her to kind of have her rights and her interests represented here. It's just. But if she's kind of hearing from a lot of people that there's still hope, then I think that would be. That might be influencing her as well. Ann says, after so many years, how do you feel post trial? I'll let you answer that first, Kevin.

[Anya Kane]

I don't know. I don't think it's really hit me yet. And people have told us that it was jarring to them. Oh, we get to hear you and Anya every night and then we don't hear you and it's all over. It was jarring for us because through the years leading up to the case and then certainly during the trial itself, we just lived and breathed this case, and then it's done, it's over. It's jarring. I don't think it's really Fully hid me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I had like a weird idea that like we'd leave Delphi on the day of the verdict and just be kind of like, wow, it's over. But I keep on worrying about the line and like how we're going to get in. I'm still there mentally and I still think about the images we saw a lot and I still, I feel like I'm not back yet. So I mean, I'm very pleased that the families have this phase of it over because I know this stress must be enormous to be going through this and so I'm very pleased for them and I think that the jury made the right call. I think justice was done for those girls. But it definitely feels weirder than I thought it would. Warren said, I think an epilogue written by Doug Carter, Indiana State Police Superintendent, needs to be in your book. What if he just wrote like these friggin people picture of him shaking his head.

[Anya Kane]

I've come to respect Doug Carter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we, we definitely criticized him and the Indiana State Police a lot when we started this and that.

[Anya Kane]

We criticize them for this case and we really criticize them for another case. Yeah, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I, I feel like he seems like a person who's really sincere, who cared about this case deeply and he was, he was showing up to, you know, court hearings, pre trial hearings and then at the trial. And I think, I think one thing that's wild about this is, you know, he's about to retire, so this is all coming to an end for him as he's leaving office. And I imagine that must on some level be gratifying to have the kind of case that he's most known for, that he is again, I think very sincerely and eloquently at times talked about how much it means to him and how much he cares about these families. To have that all wrap up like right before he's, he's gone is just, I mean that must be kind of wild.

[Anya Kane]

And sue speaks for everybody. Which heart sign? Anya.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, that's so nice.

[Anya Kane]

Everybody loves.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, thank you.

[Anya Kane]

That's really close to the town.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, why are you blushed? That's very sweet. Thank you, Sue. See, Missy Ann indicates she believes Kathy Allen has been deceived on so many levels, but it has to be hard to make yourself believe you married a murderer. I think when you look at people who are in this situation, you often see there's a struggle and you know, we, we, we, we certainly sympathize. It's a situation that's. If you love someone very Deeply. And then it turns out that they did something horrible. I think. I think reconciling that must be one of the hardest things. Jenna says your genuine love and support for each other has been so sweet to witness over the course of the trial and before. I. Thank you, Jenna. I feel like everyone was thinking, like, they're gon start losing it at each other, but I think it brought us closer together, honestly, like, because, like, we had to really rely on each other. And we made kind of a deal at the start of this. Like, whatever little annoyances, whatever little things, you know, we're doing to annoy each other during this, we just gotta let it go. And I think that's a good lesson for relationships in general. Sometimes the thing that the person's doing that's driving you nuts, like, in 15 minutes, it doesn't matter.

[Anya Kane]

And I remember the early days of the podcast. We tried really hard to keep personalities and tonal changes out of it. We tried to. Basically, we spoke in a monotone. I think we were Mr. Spock and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Now we're Dr. McCoy.

[Anya Kane]

But we would get comments sometimes like, oh, I'm shocked that they were married, because I guess, yeah, they have so little chemistry with one another. So I'm glad that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that was always embarrassing. Like, are these people married? They don't seem to be interested in each other at all. It's like we're just. We're just really awkward. Kim asks, is it easy to get trial transcripts in Indiana? I hope they will soon be out and people who've been snowed by false reporting will see other blades. No.

[Anya Kane]

Well, it depends on how you define easy. Anybody could go and order these transcripts, but it's, I think, like five or six dollars a page. It's really expensive, so it's ungodly amount of money. Now the odds are there is going to be some kind of an appeal. Whether it's a good appeal or not, it's not going to be a good appeal. But oftentimes when an appeal is done, the appeal will include a copy of the transcript.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

And that may be made available to the public free of charge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So there's hope. Clinton says, I think Jason Blair should do a forward for the book. His interview bearing witness was fantastic and so heartfelt.

[Anya Kane]

I think Jason should do a forward for every book.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Jason's amazing. Thank you so much, Clinton. That's a great suggestion. And he is, He's.

[Anya Kane]

And thank you. Yeah. We were interviewed by Jason for his podcast, and I don't remember what we.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Said, I. I feel like I sounded like a real cold fish. I was just like, yes, it has been difficult. And he was like, he was. He was so compassionate and just like, I don't know. He's a. He's a wonderful human being. Jay says my morning routine was listening to the Daily Summary episode. I won't lie, my shower has been less entertaining this week. Oh, my gosh. Thank you. And, yeah, I feel like we need to do something that's a little bit more fitting that. Filling that void. Missy Ann asked what was the best thing about Delphi?

[Anya Kane]

The best thing about Delphi is those people. The people in Delphi were so incredibly friendly and welcoming and kind and sweet, and they would offer you generosity and friendliness over and above the call of duty. You know, the family, the patties and the Germans, they would give food to people waiting in line, including people who.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Have been jerks to them for years.

[Anya Kane]

The security people in the court, I loved them. They take their job very, very seriously, and they made that very, very clear. But they also were friendly to you, and they weren't mean. They were very kind. They would always have a smile for the people coming in, and just everybody was so kind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's my answer, too. Delphi residents rock. Maria asks, what point did you feel like you knew for sure Richard Allen was the killer? I don't know if there was a singular moment, Maria, for me, but just as the trial went on and as the prosecution presented his case. But in the back of my mind, I sort of held out for some space for the defense to come in and knock some of that down. And when they didn't, it certainly solidified things for me. This is your question from Debbie. Okay, I'll read it. Debbie asks Kevin, do you see anything that happened in this case that the defense can really hang their hats on for an appeal?

[Anya Kane]

No. Next question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Great question.

[Anya Kane]

I really don't. And I don't mean to be glib about that. I think Judge Go, we have criticisms about Judge Goal, a number of things, but the way she handled the actual trial, the way she protected Richard Allen's rights, I think she did a fine job.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Agreed.

[Anya Kane]

And one thing to remember is there is. There is someone on Twitter who is. I'm saying, Michael Osborne. He. He is apparently handling the appeal for Richard Allen, and he's incredibly confident. He's, like, tweeting out pictures, I think, of wolves and stuff, because this is. They're gonna do the legal equivalent of being wolves.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What?

[Anya Kane]

I don't even know what that means, but he's very, very confident the appeal is going to be successful. But please remember a few months ago he was confident. He said there's a good chance that the case is so weak against Richard Allen, there's a fair chance they're going to dismiss it even before the trial. So when people are making dramatic predictions about the success of the appeal, just remember their track record.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's like the, it's like those cults in the 1800s where they're like, we're all going to get raptured on this specific Tuesday. Tuesday rolls around. No one's raptured. Okay, I messed up. It's actually three years from now. It's like, okay, at some point maybe.

[Anya Kane]

And Lightning, our dog, is walking around in preparation for this next question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, she's stomping around. Teresa and Rosie want to know how are, how is Lanny, our dog, doing? How excited has she been to have you home? Well, I think she's been pretty happy. We were a little worried about her at first because she wasn't eating as much and I felt so bad. But now she's, she's back to her normal eats and she's kind of standing there looking stoic now. But I think she's had. Oh, you're wagging your tail. She's wagging her tail. So she knows we're talking about her. Yes, I know, but, but she's, she's doing well. Thank you so much for asking. We really missed her a lot when we were doing this. Our executive producer. But she had a good time, I think, at the, at her little place where she went. Kelly asks, I genuinely believe the defense had not prepared a backup plan once Odinism was out. I think they had all their eggs in one wacky basket. In a wacky basket. It was indeed Kelly. And if that's the case, then yikes, because it was never coming back in. I think the three day hearing should have prompted a, some continuances and maybe some soul searching in this defense team. And it seems that it did not. And I, that that's, I don't understand that. Kristen asked, is there a hidden True Crime slash Ms. Collab episode in the works? Well, we certainly hope so at some point. Point. But, but we'll see. I don't want to. We're talking about, we're going to talk about it. No, I don't think I've even texted them.

[Anya Kane]

But I thought you said you texted them today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I, I did not. I don't know.

[Anya Kane]

You drafted the test.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think I Drafted a text. It's a lot. But, but we, we'd certainly like to do that. I think they, they really did a wonderful job and should be absolutely commended on that. Let's see.

[Anya Kane]

Kim.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kim said, I missed y'all this week. How do you feel about a daily podcast? That's one thing we were talking about, Kim. The thing is we don't want to sacrifice quality for quantity. We don't want to be like, hey guys, how about them cubs? You know, like, I think you guys would get really sick of us if we were doing something like that. And so I think we're kind of like, it may end up being a podcast where that comes out a lot of times a week because we have a lot of stuff from author interviews to kind of more scripted episodes to more legal analysis episodes. But we'd like to incorporate at least some of the kind of vibe of our trial episodes into that. Does that make sense? Let us know what you think or like if you have any suggestions about what you really liked about it so we can incorporate that into it.

[Anya Kane]

Would you like to hear an interview about the possible criminal ties of Zeppelin? If so, I might have some good news for you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh my gosh. Somehow all of our listeners have left the stream and are unsubscribing from the Patreon.

[Anya Kane]

See what you did, Zeppel Marks. They had killed us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He may have killed others. No, he didn't. Maybe in the vault of the mob. Sadie wants to note in terms of Richard Allen, let's be clear, he was not in solitary confinement. He was in a cell alone. Big difference. This was something that did come up in trial Sadie too, where they're talking about solitary confinement, which is like a punishment status versus being in a one man cell. The prosecution wanted to delineate that. The defense wanted to say, well, it's same difference. And so I kind of understand both sides, but it seems like certainly in this case I'm still here despite my dog abandoned me. He's scritching, Lanny. Cam says you guys are calming. Well, thank you, Pam. We try to be.

[Anya Kane]

People often tell us that they listen to us on the podcast when they're trying to go to sleep.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We are so boring. We will knock you out. Teresa says the. The very mysterious. We just want you to. And then it cuts off. Teresa, do not leave us hanging. You were about to suggest the like the thing we need to do.

[Anya Kane]

Do we need to contact the authorities? It's Teresa.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Teresa, drop it in the chat. Oh, man. Rosie said, I'm stunned that the trial went smoothly. I predicted a mistrial or jurors dropping out. Rosie, I'm not going to lie. I was with you once. We were on, like, day three of deliberation. Like, we're going to. It's going to be a mistrial. We did have a alternate juror drop out, apparently due to a family emergency. But other than that, it went shockingly smoothly. Sue said any topic. The withdrawals have been horrific. Oh, my God. I know. From. From us.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Geez. No, I. I don't. I don't feel at any top. You don't want to hear. I mean, like, sepo marks. No, nothing.

[Anya Kane]

If so, I might have some good news.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sue, you say that now and then on day six. You know, the 12 part Zeppo Marx thing. 12 part 12. Zeppo. What? Where was Zeppo when this happened? You're gonna be smashing that unsubscribe button. Kristen said, it did feel like you were talking right to us. As we so often said we were best friends. You just don't know it. Now you know it all. Thank you, Kristen. I feel like you guys are all my best friends, too. It's been really nice, and it's just. It. It does feel like we're like, it. It felt like talking directly to you more so than anything else. And I. I really enjoyed that.

[Anya Kane]

I did, too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Teresa said, oop. Tell us what you've been doing all week. Today was grocery day. Except, no, we're not gonna do a podcast about this unless I really do plan one of those heists, in which case you're all invited.

[Anya Kane]

See, the thing is, my secret dream is to do a grocery store podcast. It's a secret dream because I'm so bizarre. I love grocery stores. And whenever we go anywhere, I say, anya, look, it's a grocery store.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He would have been. I was a retail reporter. He would have been the best retail reporter. So I feel like you would. That was your. That was your vocation. Sue said, hopefully it was cathartic for you guys to talk to us after court each day. Yeah, that is what it was. It was cathartic. It was like, we're unloading all of this. Hopefully it didn't feel too like. But hopefully it was still informative. Although, like, honestly, some days I'm like, people would be like, oh, remember when Anya said this? And I'd be like, what? What did I say?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it's funny. People in our group, sometimes our Facebook group will have like, oh, here's a quote that Kevin or Anya said, and Often I don't remember it blacked out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kelly said, did Kevin get a shrimp? Not yet. That's on the agenda. Kimberly asks, what are your thoughts on mitigating and aggravating factors and what the sentence might look like? That's a good question.

[Anya Kane]

What are your thoughts?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, mitigating factors might be something like mental illness in a, in a meaningful way prompted this or it's hard to think of anything else.

[Anya Kane]

He cooperated with authorities briefly. He reported, he self reported aggravating. Obviously a horrific crime.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's a fragile egg.

[Anya Kane]

Horrific crime involving two children. Two childs, two young girls.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Aggravating. I mean, they experienced horror before they died and were. Libby was crying when she died and there's a lot aggravating. It's a good question. I'll be curious to see what ends up coming up. Rosie said, I was worried about an appeal potentially overturning the conviction until I listened to the prosecutors episode. The host explained why it's very unlikely.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it's not going to happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not going to happen. And also prosecutors are great. They've done some excellent coverage of this case. And I feel like they often have these helpful episodes where it's sort of taking issues like that where you're like wondering, hey, how would this happen? And they kind of break it all down for you. Pam asks, if your client confesses to you, is it legal to make up a cult killing of two children to defend your client after they confessed? Hypothetically, of course, yeah. What a wacky situation. Pam?

[Anya Kane]

Well, they, they claimed that if he confessed, it wasn't a real confession because he was pressured into doing it through the machinations of that self. Same culture.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What a mess. Teresa says, honestly, a cat jury would be awesome.

[Anya Kane]

See, I don't even remember where that's in reference. Did you say something like that earlier today?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I probably don't know.

[Anya Kane]

I know at one point behind the scenes you were like riffing on something about dogs and cats on trial.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, okay. At times we would see these neighborhood cats and they were, they were great and they were my therapy cats and I love them and I still miss them and they're beautiful and I, I think they would be good jurors. They seem very respectful. Kristen said, think of any of the jurors will talk. Here's my message to the jurors. Run. Run.

[Anya Kane]

I would love to hear from the jurors, but the problem is a lot of people have made public appeals for the jurors to come and talk. And I would be concerned that the jurors Might go to somewhat untrustworthy and, like, identifying information would get out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Some of those people are fine to talk to. Others are like that kind of fish with the light dangling, and it's gonna bite you and eat you if you come near the light.

[Anya Kane]

So if any. If anybody knows any jurors and they're unsure, don't look back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Run.

[Anya Kane]

The safest thing to do is just don't talk to any reporters.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lot's wife turned to a pillar of salt when she turned back. That's the idea here. Run.

[Anya Kane]

And the fact is, they don't owe us anything. No, they did their job. They did it well.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think some of the jurors might. I hypothetically, be, like, looking at the Internet coverage and be like, oh, my gosh, I need to defend myself and my decision. You don't need to. You don't need to do anything. Nobody has a right to.

[Anya Kane]

We'd love to talk to you, but I'm saying I wouldn't recommend it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, I'm taking us off the.

[Anya Kane]

No, I'd love to talk to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would, too, but, like.

[Anya Kane]

But I'm saying, if I was a friend of the jurors, I would advise them not to do that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I would say just.

[Anya Kane]

But if they want to talk, sure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you want to talk, talk to us. And. And we will keep you. We will keep you out of it. But I would really strongly recommend against talking to anybody.

[Anya Kane]

One of the jurors in particular was often looking into the gallery.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He'd be like this. I was like, oh, dude, I know you know how you feel right now, and I'm in the gallery. Oh, man. But I. I think some of the jurors might talk, and it. It might be a big mistake because they could just end up getting doxxed. And then the reason why I'm saying run is not just to be facetious. It's like, I think there are people out there that will actually try to attack these people for being on the jury and will try to wreck their lives over. Over what? You know, over a verdict that they disagree with. And I would hate to see people have that happen to them because it's just stupid. And they don't owe it. They don't owe us their time or, you know, risking, you know, their peace in their lives. Maria asked, will you be at sentencing? It's rare for a person to commit a heinous crime for the first time at age 50. So. Curious to see if we will learn of behaviors prior to 7, 2017. Great question. Maria. Yeah, I don't. I don't know about, like, when we'll be there. Yeah, we'll definitely be there. As far as the other stuff, maybe we will, maybe we won't. It's. It's definitely an unusual crime in many respects, for sure. Kelly asks, I was skeptical after the pca, too, but you were right in your evidence episode. It's the totality of the evidence. I don't care about What True Crime Swine89 says. First of all, Kelly, thank you for going with the respectful rebranding of our old enemy, True Crime Swine. And I would also just say, yes, it is the totality. It's not. If I was to hold up one, you know, rock representing one piece of evidence, you'd say, well, that's not enough to hold anyone down, but when you pile all the rocks on, then it certainly is. And so it just.

[Anya Kane]

It's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what it is. I think a lot of reporters had a hard time understanding that because they're like, where's the big, sexy piece of evidence that's going to. Below everyone's? And it's like, it's just not that kind of case, frankly. A lot of cases are not that kind of case. Sheree asks, do you think the pro ra youtubers are getting paid for the fence?

[Anya Kane]

No, I haven't seen the evidence of that, but they are getting access and they are getting perks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So they aren't even getting paid by YouTube. It's not. They are.

[Anya Kane]

They are getting perks, like a guaranteed seat in the courthouse every day or.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Access or feeling important or feeling like a junior deputy Woodchuck member scout of the team.

[Anya Kane]

They're getting paid by YouTube. It's not that much.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm just saying they're getting paid peanuts by YouTube. They're not motivated by money. They're motivated by wanting to belong and attention. And so, I mean, there might be some of them, the smarter ones, who are thinking long term and, like, if I, if I really have a high profile on this case, I could build a whole career off of it. That's certainly possible, but I, I don't think the defense needs to pay or bribe anyone. I think all the defense needs to do is say, hey, you know, like, want to feel like you're in the mix with us and, and people will do whatever they want. Is that fair to say? Tracy says, look over and the cat jury is licking itself or puking up hairball, staring at the ceiling. Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Were you talking about a cat jury?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Was I talking about A cat jury. Was I, like, just that out of it that I don't remember this? Like, Anya, you did a whole episode about it. Cat jury. We were all concerned. We sent you many emails asking if you were okay.

[Anya Kane]

Anya's talking about a cat jury. I'm interviewing the white noise music machine.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh. Because Fascinating. Thank you so much for coming on. What do I always say? Absolutely. Oh, my God. Cherie says, so great to see you both again. It's so great to see you. This is so fun. I love doing this. So it's really nice to be back. We missed it so much. So I'm like, yeah, we're so back. Let's see. Rosie said, I think the defense could have gotten a hungry or established reasonable doubt if they use a different strategy.

[Anya Kane]

I'm not sure they could have, but I would agree the strategy they used was bad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

To be blunt, it was a poor strategy that was also poorly executed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought it was intellectually dishonest, but, you know, I mean, it's their job to defend him no matter what. I agree with you, Rosie, that there would have been ways to get it where I might have been a little bit more like, I see what their point is. I don't know about reasonable doubt. I think their goal at this point was hung jury. And that that remains to be seen. I also think, frankly, maybe if they'd done a little bit. I didn't feel like the defense performance in Wa Deer was all that impressive, given that, like, Brad, Rosie opened it up by asking somebody if they had an intellectual disability. That sort of seemed like that wasn't.

[Anya Kane]

That wasn't his opening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He asked all of it. No, it wasn't his opening. But, like, that was their introduction to him on some level. And I think voir dire is where you can kind of really assemble a team who might be more open to your strategy and maybe then that hangs up the jury later on and I feel like they.

[Anya Kane]

So bad strategy poorly executed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it was not good. Kristen said. One thing this trial has made clear to me is that there's a severe lack of prosecution minded content creators, or rather creators who use logic and common sense and not just crazy stuff. I'll tell you this, Kristen, there's cases out there that, you know, I'm sure we'll cover at some point where I feel like the prosecution is more of in the role as the off the wall side. That's totally ridiculous.

[Anya Kane]

I mean, David Cam.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. David Kam would be the one that comes to, you know, where it's just kind of a big mess. And in those situations, we're certainly the.

[Anya Kane]

Key thing is not what side you're on as long as you are on the side of logic and common sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's the thing. We need the common sense people. And there are some in True Crime, but they're not nearly enough. And this is something we're going to talk about next week, but there's been a slew of frankly mediocre, poorly executed episodes of just random podcasts that ought to know better that have come out and been like, well, I mean, maybe it wasn't fair because Odinism didn't come in. And it's like, you don't know what Odinism is. We've been dealing with Odinism for, like two years or like, whatever. How long? It feels like two years, maybe a year. Are you running away?

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to scare you.

[Anya Kane]

I mean, scared everybody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's like. But seriously. But like, sometimes I just want to yell at people and be like, you don't know what it's like in here. We've been in the Odinism trenches. We tried to give it a chance and it was ridiculous. And so I don't know, what am I ranting about? I'm sorry.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I stopped.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We can move on.

[Anya Kane]

Rosie says no one talked about the veteran aspect because Richard Allen served in the military and so did a lot of the other key players, including prosecutors and police officers.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Huh.

[Anya Kane]

I don't think we really talked about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We didn't. But I know Alan was very involved. It sounds like in the reserves, right?

[Anya Kane]

I believe so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that was definitely a big part of his. His life. Pam asks, how did you come up with the name murder sheet?

[Anya Kane]

That's a great question because it's not readily apparent and it's not, let's be honest, it's not a great title.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Throwing me under the bus. My idea.

[Anya Kane]

We're among friends here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Throwing me under the bus. Where are you going?

[Anya Kane]

So we, we met. We met over our interest in the Burger Chef case. And that is a restaurant homicide that had some unusual features to it, including the fact that the victims were taken from the restaurant and then killed at another location. And so Anya got interested.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hyper fixated, one might say.

[Anya Kane]

She wondered, well, Kevin, we think these are unusual aspects, but are they really? And so she wanted to look into other restaurant homicides, and she found out that the FBI and other agencies had never really focused just on restaurant homicide.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nor should they, frankly, because it's not, like, statistically sound.

[Anya Kane]

So she Began creating a spreadsheet of every restaurant homicide she could find and included details about it. And at some point, I started helping you with the spreadsheet. And so the initial concept was that the murder sheet would only cover cases that appeared on that restaurant homicide spreadsheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And then we. I. We were like, talking about a name. All, like, the good names have gotten taken at this point. So we're like. I think I was just like, murder sheet. Because we're. It's a spreadsheet, and it kind of evoked like a newspaper for me, which.

[Anya Kane]

I kind of like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But, yeah, I think you've been very ambivalent about the name all the time. But now I love the name because then people call us the murder sheets, which is funny. Like, we're the two individual sheets. Yeah, that. That's our answer.

[Anya Kane]

And then we. We expanded beyond restaurants.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. People were like, why didn't you call it murder on the menu? And we're like, well, we don't want to do restaurants forever.

[Anya Kane]

And then it was funny. Somebody sent us a screenshot of the description we wrote for our first Delphi episode where we said, we're gonna take just a short break away from restaurant homicides.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're just gonna step away for a.

[Anya Kane]

Second for two or 300 episodes, never come back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're still in Delphi. We'll go. I mean, we'll do more restaurant homicides. It's just. I don't think this show needs to be focused on that anymore. Let's see. Tracy said, I thought some, on occasion, that maybe some of the pro defense people were planted there. I think the defense may have been behind some of the shenanigans. Pure speculation. Well, I can tell you, Tracy, the defense were definitely behind shenanigans. But whether they. Kelly mentions Tracy. I agree. I'm pretty sure some of that was confirmed in the brain trust. They were. They were shenanigans.

[Anya Kane]

That comment was from Kelly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, they were. There were shenanigans. But the question of, did they. Were they paid actors, paid provocateurs? We've not seen any evidence in that. And frankly, when you don't need to pay people to behave badly, like, I don't think we necessarily need to assume that they. Anyone got paid. Let's see. Oh, Christy said, it's so good to see you guys relax and you're playful selves. Oh, thank you. That's really sweet. Yeah. Again, if you have ideas on how we can incorporate that into the show, let us know. May not be able to be weekly Nightly, but it could be weekly, I think, or maybe even multiple times a week. Bubble thing.

[Anya Kane]

You're so ambitious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm ambitious. I'm changing everything. No, I.

[Anya Kane]

She's got power back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm nuts now. This has broken me. He's holding his head like this right now, just looking off into the space. That's where we are. That's where we are as people. Where are you going? You're, like, sliding away from me.

[Anya Kane]

So, yeah. Yesterday we recorded an episode of our other podcast, Mystery to Me, which we haven't released. It may never release, but we. Because of a different way of doing things, we had to listen to the introduction of that podcast. And Anya was so embarrassed by that introduction. She just sat and held her head.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You guys remember how bad the Murder Sheet intro used to be where, like, we went on for, like, five hours about, like, what it think that, but more cringe. Let's see. Stacy asks, was Kathy Allen out of town taking care of a sick parent on February 13th or at work? I've heard both. Honestly, we don't know.

[Anya Kane]

I think work.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My understanding was work, but I don't have that, like, doubly confirmed. Rosie said, for the trial, I'm really disappointed I couldn't go. I planned to go and scheduled around it, but it was obvious I was unlikely to get a seat. Rosie, I think you made the right call there, and I'm sorry you couldn't come either. It just. It was. It was awful. And there were so many people who like, showed up, like, who traveled, like, from across the country, who'd get, like, cut off at the last. It was awful.

[Anya Kane]

Christy mentions Susan Hendricks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Christy says, I listened to Susan Hendrix book and she was very complimentary about Murder Sheet. I haven't read or listened to anyone that hasn't been physically and emotionally invested in Delphi. Christy, Susan Hendricks is a very, very lovely person, and her book down the Hill is really compassionate and really good, and so we always recommend.

[Anya Kane]

She's wonderful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She's awesome. She saved our butts so many times at this trial. She was like, we need to get seats. Didn't she get, like, heated blankets at one point? So I feel like we're. We didn't get frostbite because of Susan Hendrix at this point.

[Anya Kane]

And if you've watched Susan Hendricks on television or read her book, you know, she's intelligent and articulate and professional and empathetic, but you may not know. She's just a fun person, a great person to talk to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, she's. I feel like she helped Us stay sane at this. So we're very, very grateful to her. Let's see. Where are we going?

[Anya Kane]

Susan Hendricks was the last one. Oh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lydia says, we missed you. We missed you guys so much. Debbie says, the Court TV coverage of the verdict was horrific. There was a lot of. There was a lot of stuff going on. That's all I'll say. Slam, bam.

[Anya Kane]

I really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. That was embarrassing. That was a low moment.

[Anya Kane]

I'm very tired.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That was a low moment for all of us, I think. Jay says in Kevin's defense, pun intended. I wouldn't be surprised. That's how they talk about.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, that's what I was trying to. To, to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, yeah. It was very simple.

[Anya Kane]

It was all very thoughtful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jay's giving you an out.

[Anya Kane]

It's not just me being an idiot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maria said, did judge go break the law about public access? Do you believe she will be sued? I don't know if this is true, but I heard one person filed something against her during trial. Did she break the law? Absolutely not. No. Did she really aggravate and annoy us? Yes, but she didn't break the law.

[Anya Kane]

It's not quite that simple, I don't think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay. One thing you have to understand is judges have a lot of leeway over what goes on in a courtroom. So if the judge is saying, I'm not going to really give reasonable accommodations to media, that is very frustrating and bad in my view and in your view, too. But it doesn't mean that they're breaking the law. Does that make sense?

[Anya Kane]

That makes sense. But I'm not sure if what she gave us all was meaningful public access. And I'm sure that's something that's going to be debated and argued about for a long time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But like in legal circles, public access means the public can come in the courtroom. Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

So she didn't break any.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She did not break any laws. It's. I don't think it was good. I'm not going to defend it, nor am I defending it. We really had problems.

[Anya Kane]

And yes, one of the law tubers did file something, some suit against Judge Gull that I would guess is not going to go anywhere.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that would be our feeling. And again, I wish things were different in Indiana, where there was more protection of meaningful public access. And just when you're looking at the landscape here, that's just not it. And as far as. Again, when you look at the rules, as far as I'm concerned, she'd be like, well, I let the public in all 24 of them. And 14 on some days. And that's kind of, I'm the judge. So there you go. And so it, it, it's, I don't, I think that's kind of where it is. Let's see.

[Anya Kane]

Rosie has a question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Great question from Rosie. I can't understand why the defense didn't call some of their other witnesses. Kaden Klein could have confused jurors. Why didn't Kathy Allen testify? I still can't believe he didn't tell her he was on the bridge for five years. Rosie, great questions. Let me. So Kagan, Klein was never going to talk to the jurors directly because that was disallowed by the motion in lemonade. And that was a situation where I think Kevin and I were like, that could go either way. Odinism, I thought was totally out. But Kagan, I was like, I could see letting that in and letting it out. I think it was kind of marginal. But the reason he didn't come in is because they did not call him for the offer of proof where they would have been able to at least establish that for appeals. Discord. It also makes me question some things because I thought if they had gone with Keg and Klein from the beginning, they would have been in a much stronger position and maybe they could have gotten more information that would have made it so that they did establish more of a nexus because they didn't really put a lot of effort into Kagan Klein at the three day hearing. So I'm surprised when you look back that they didn't just go with Klein from the start. I thought he would be like a built in boogeyman third party suspect who would have been somebody that a jury could have certainly looked at very seriously. Right. Kathy Allen going on the stand could have. The risk of putting someone on the stand is that they can be cross examined. And so that when you're dealing with somebody in this situation, that would be something you always need. You know, when Jennifer O.J. put Allen's daughter Britney Zaponta and Alan's sister Jamie Jones on the stand, she really kept her questions super limited of like, do you love your dad? Did he, did he molest you? Like kind of in order so that the prosecution couldn't cross examine them too much because you have to focus on what was done and direct. You can't just bring in random stuff. So with Kathy Allen that there might have been, you know, they don't want to open it up too much.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then I thought it was also really odd that Richard Allen apparently Did not tell Kathy that he had been on the bridge for five years. That would be something that would certainly raise my hackles. Stacy says lawyers really are salesmen. Sorry, Kevin.

[Anya Kane]

Salesman for truth and honesty and reason and logic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He always says, the lawyers, the princes among men.

[Anya Kane]

Clemence's Court TV was awful. It was Barbara McDonald and Bob Motta every day. These anchors are attorneys and journalists by trade, and they know better. So irresponsible. I think there was. I have a lot of concerns about a lot of the way this case was covered. And I feel that a number of members of the general public were, to be blunt, they were lied to. They were given false information about this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, like, we're fans of core tv. We like core TV a lot. But I think when someone like Bob Mota is given that much airtime and that's not really vetted, it can lead to all sorts of bad situations. Kelly asks, will there be a book tour? So our book, Shadow of the Bridge, is going to come out hopefully in August.

[Anya Kane]

I mean, hopefully it would definitely come out in August.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We gotta write it and, yeah, we'd like to do a book tour. We'll try to make that happen. We can come to your Barnes and Nobles and be super awkward, but it'll be really cool to meet a lot.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it's a strange position to be in and we don't know how anything works.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We never done this before. Chrissy asks you guys things after. Sorry. Do you guys think after the transcript of the trial comes out, we could maybe do a meet or greet or even a long live to go through the trial together?

[Anya Kane]

That would be a really long live because again, this is like 20 days long.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is that alive or like an ongoing hostage crisis? Christy, you can't leave. We're only on day three. People are trying to, like, break out the window. We. We can see. We could see. I. Part of us has always been, like, reluctant to do anything with transcripts because it's like we already went and covered it. But, I mean, I'm sure that whenever that is released, there'll be a ton of discussions. There might be time. Like, there might be. And we.

[Anya Kane]

One time before Nick McLean did this case, he did another murder case that had some interesting moments in it. And at one point we have the transcript, we're like, oh, wouldn't it be fun if we did a reading of this? And it just got really, really complicated. Yeah, that's why you never saw it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lydia said, are you enjoying the conspiracy theory about y'all running through the back door of the court on verdict.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. This shows you a lot about. This shows you a lot about some people's rigor for truth and honesty, justice. I. I've seen this. That people posted a clip. There was apparently some sort of camera focused on the courthouse on verdict day. And you can see Anya and I standing there. And then someone comes over and says something to us, and then we rush off. And so with no other information than that, people were saying, well, obviously someone came to sneak Anya and Kevin in through the back door. And as we've said many times, we did not go inside. So I. If you paid attention, you would know that that was untrue. And I can tell you what it was. It was not interesting, but I can tell you. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Somebody from one of the television stations wanted to interview us, and then they weren't available at that time. They said, oh, we want to interview you a little bit later. And we said, whatever. And we go off. And then they say, well, actually, we want to interview you right now, right after this commercial break in. So we rushed over to do that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're just trying to support journalists. Pay no attention to the big carpet that was being smuggled in through one of the. One of the back doors. I mean, like. Like, we. I mean, if we'd been in there, we would have talked about being in there.

[Anya Kane]

Well, we. Yeah, because that would have been good. The point of going to these hearings is to talk about what we see there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we're like, oh, no, we're standing outside then. Yeah. People are so wild. They just want to, like, believe. Like, oh, yeah, they, like, we Mission Impossible our way in there and we're, like, hanging from, like, a harness to spy on the. It just. People are so dumb. I love stuff like that, though, because it's always really funny. And they always seem to make Kevin and I have to be way cooler than we actually are because, like, we're always. It's always like, they're undercover police or they're like, like, sneaking in and breaking through the back window or, like, all this, like, ridiculous stuff. And it's like, what, have you met us? That would not work. We'd immediately, like, trip over the alarm and it would just be a whole, whole incident. Lauren asks, I have to know, do you still think the Kleins are involved? Also would love to know more about Diane Doolin. Why did he testify about helping look for evidence at the crime scene and mention seeing sticks the day before interviewing Richard Allen? Weird to include.

[Anya Kane]

Do you still think the claims are Robbed, I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean. No, I guess. I mean, from what we saw, it sounds like there was cell phone evidence putting both of the clients at home that day. The thing that always raises the eyebrow is the fact that Alan was in Peru that day in the Peru, Mexico area. So you're always kind of like. But I don't feel like that's enough to really draw any conclusions. So I'm going to say no for now. I mean, this is one of those things where, like, if people brought me information, I'd be open to it, but I'm.

[Anya Kane]

I don't feel like I'll say this. There is not enough evidence on Klein's potential involvement to warrant any charges being filed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's correct.

[Anya Kane]

That doesn't mean there is no such.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do the coincidences bother me? Yes. Do I feel like I'm like, oh, yeah, he must be involved? No, not at all. And I would, I would lean against it at this point. As for, I don't know, Dan Doolin, was he testifying about looking for evidence of the crime scene and mentioning seeing the sticks the day before interviewing Richard Allen?

[Anya Kane]

I don't know if I remember.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't recall that, to be honest, Lauren, we might just be blacking something out that did happen. So I'm not saying you're wrong. I just. I don't remember that aspect of it. So sorry. Teresa said it wasn't a thread. It was a giant snack. See, one thing that all of you patreons will. All you folks will appreciate, or at least people who were there prior to this, is that I once embarrassed myself because one of our wonderful patrons, I believe it was Tracy, commented about how she had once had to pepper spray a rottie because it was about to attack her. And I read it as a rattler. So I was like, wow, pepper spraying snakes. And I went on this whole extended, like, five hour lecture about pepper spraying snakes for some reason, and. And then it finally caught up with the comments and it was revealed that I missed that up. So whenever, when, when Brad Rosie posted up that big snake spreadsheet or a PowerPoint presentation, I was just immediately, like, fumbling for the pepper spread.

[Anya Kane]

Boy, was that a dumb closing argument.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That was perhaps one of the dumbest things I've seen in court. It was bad.

[Anya Kane]

And you see me in court.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, you're a very smart gentleman. Cherie said, disappointed in the state's ballistic expert. She could have worked harder and smarter, in my opinion. Oh, I'd be curious to know what your thoughts are on that. I. This Is one of those.

[Anya Kane]

I thought she was impressive.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought she did a really good job holding up on cross examination. She was very unflappable. But I'd be curious about your sort of thoughts on the. On the evidentiary part of that, because to me, that was something I struggled with. I felt like I could grasp DNA better than I can sort of the mechanics of ballistics. To be honest, that. That day, I was like, oh, my God, I'm writing words and I'm struggling here. Rosie says the new conspiracy theories are crazy. They claim there was jury tampering because jurors got to call their families. Oh, gosh. Yeah, Rosie. And the funny thing is that the people who were the conspiracy theorists were also trying to identify the jurors while this was all going on. So it's ironic that they're suddenly pearl clutching about. About jury tampering. It's like, oh, no, someone else tampered. Then we weren't able to. It's, like, ridiculous. Obviously, Jane says the YouTubers believe that. Believe he's innocent for clicks and giggles, whatever. But my concern is the rage they're feeling. I'm a worrier. Yeah. Jane, I'm not gonna lie. I think that at some point, if this continues, someone could get seriously hurt, like, some. You know, because if you're telling people, hey, all these people in Delphi and who are involved in the investigation are evil, and they did an evil thing. I mean, you're basically asking for one of your unhinged followers to take action because they. It's not bad to do something against evil people. Right? It's concerning to me, too. I also am a warrior, Teresa.

[Anya Kane]

Just like Andy Baldwin.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Huh?

[Anya Kane]

In the Voir Deer, he kept on referring to himself as a. Oh, yeah, he did.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He did. I remember that. Teresa said, do you think the prosecutors will talk to you for the book? Judge G. I'm not even asking about the defense.

[Anya Kane]

I think we're gonna ask everybody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're gonna ask everybody. I don't think Judge Cole's gonna talk to us, but I would love her to. I. We're certainly gonna ask her.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely no possibility.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But she's not gonna do it.

[Anya Kane]

We're gonna ask.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She'd be sooner to, like, probably throw us in jail at this point, but. But, you know, we're gonna ask everybody and hope they do, I think.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, we made up a list today of, like, what, 100 names?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we've. We've. We're. We've been very critical of the defense performance. But that being said, I Love to hear what challenges they had to face during this and sort of maybe contextualize some of that performance. So I feel like it would be great to get some of that. And I mean, we've heard from a lot of people that these are very good attorneys. And again, even if we've not been impressed with aspects of the defense, it would be great to just kind of know more because I think sometimes when you, when you're on the outside, it's easier to be like, what the heck is this? But if you're on the inside, it's like, maybe that's all we could do.

[Anya Kane]

And both members of the prosecution team and members of the defense team were friendly to us at different times.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

They say, hey, Kevin, hey on you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And like, so it's. It's nothing personal. It's. It's really. I. I would love to sit down with the defense, too, and just be like, hey, what. What was this? And just in. Because again, easy. On some level, we can be critical. We could be Monday morning quarterbacks. But if they. They might be able to tell us stuff of like, oh, here's what. And then it was like, okay, you were. Maybe they had a client from hell. I mean, it's. It's fair to say that about Richard Allen at this point. I think they had a client who really, really limited his options. And to a certain extent, I understand elements of where the defense was coming from because he. He kept on cutting off avenues that they could have gone down, I feel. And that must have been very challenging to work with.

[Anya Kane]

Lydia demands. Where were Richard Allenby house until Sensei still Cass. Yes, yes. Let me scroll through here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, wait. Ed said that the defense team should have definitely listened to you guys like the prosecution did during Murdoch. They might have put on a different case, still lost with better. I think a lot of our criticism could have been accepted as constructive criticism because it's better to listen to people who are saying, well, I hear you. But rather than people are saying, gee, gosh, you guys are the best defense daddies all the way. I think that. That you're not going to get anywhere with like, that doesn't add anything. Teresa said, I want a mystery to me revival. Sorry, Anya. Thanks a lot. Teresa. What do you.

[Anya Kane]

Recorded a new episode last night.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did you guys plan this? No, it's so. Oh, God, it's cringe. But I appreciate the interest. What are you looking at?

[Anya Kane]

Well, somebody said.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, the Frankenstein doodle.

[Anya Kane]

Somebody wants to see your Frankenstein doodle. So I'm looking through Just a couple of your. No folks here and I'm not seeing it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll post a picture of it. And the mediocre sharks, they're not very good, but you know, they're in there. And I did mention them by name, but they're not good. Don't expect too much. But that Frankenstein guy, I mean, he's Frankenstein sponsor. Not too bad. Clinton said he read the Moral Compass of the American Lawyer in college for legal ethics class. Good read. I gotta read that. That sounds interesting.

[Anya Kane]

Love Scott Trout. He writes very well about lawyers. And I wonder if Scott Trow has a new novel coming out and if so, I wonder if it will be discussed on a future episode of a podcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're pretty excited about it. And Lydia also notes that that was a Jimmy Stewart movie. She's never seen everyone watch Anatomy of a Murder. It's so good. Debbie says, come to Georgia. We have great biscuits. I bet. I love biscuits, so. Oh, thank you. Teresa also shouted out my mediocre sharks. That what was happening that day when I was doodling and being really unprofessional? I don't know, I don't remember. But it was something very boring. Leah asked, who is Brad Rosie holding hands and skipping out of the courtroom with Alan's sister? Defense attorneys touch their clients way too much for my.

[Anya Kane]

I think that was Alan's sister.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't, I don't know. Let's see. Heidi said, for her, the van was the clincher for sure. Maria asks, do you have any further research that you need to do for the book? Will you attempt to get an interview with Richard Allen or Kathy Allen? Will you interview the families and also the van? Was it for her too? Maria, we're going to try to talk to everybody and for me, basically no.

[Anya Kane]

One has been able to give an on the record interview for a couple years now because of this gag order. And we want to have on the record information from as many people as possible. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, basically, if you can think of them, we're going to try to talk to them. And if you have access to anybody and you know, like, they have your, you know, you have their ear, we'd love, you know, let them know that we're trying to make this as all encompassing as possible. See, Christy said, how could they never find Richard Allen's phone or at least phone info from the carrier? It's a good question, Christie. I don't really know how those technological investigations work in terms of what you can find if you can't if you don't have the phone. But it certainly seems unusual. And I know Clinton said that for him, the phone was definitely a big moment of not having the 2017 phone that. That being mysteriously missing from Richard Allen's house. Ms. Ian said, you should find time to watch hidden true crime. Dr. John is worth the time.

[Anya Kane]

We will. They're very impressive people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely. Him and Lauren, it seems like just come at these cases from a very. A place of respect. And I felt like they tackled it like students of the case. They were like. Like, that's how we try to be. We try to be students where we're not just like, we're not assuming, but we're just like, what's going on? And like, they were. They had that curiosity that I liked. Amanda said, who is the nicest YouTuber you met there?

[Anya Kane]

Lauren.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lauren. Because we met her there. Because we. There are a lot of nice YouTubers that we've kind of talked with in the past, but we knew them already and we'd already met them. So I would have to say Lauren. Absolutely. And her team was great. Just awesome people. I had to get out of the comments because they're all squinching. Lydia says, what do you think will be released to the public from the trial? Probably a good amount of the exhibits.

[Anya Kane]

And at some point, either through an appeal or through people just paying for it, I imagine the transcript will be released.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Stephanie says, thank you guys for such great coverage. Thank you, Stephanie. Hope you find cases to cover with prosecutors podcast. Oh, yeah, they're awesome. There's. They're just the coolest.

[Anya Kane]

And they are just as. They're just as wonderful behind the scenes as they are on the show.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Rebecca says Hidden True Crime. Definitely talked about trying to be swayed by Pop mono, one of their Patreon episodes. Yeah. Does not surprise me. Kristen said, will you two be filing about public access issues?

[Anya Kane]

Probably.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, what, like a lawsuit or.

[Anya Kane]

Well, I mean, we did back earlier in the case. We did file into the case because Judge Gold was not releasing as many papers and many. As many filings as she should. And so we actually filed into the case. I think some people forgotten this and said, hey, these other documents should be released. And so one day a little over a year ago, like a hundred and some documents were released because of that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So as far as, like, I mean, like, I don't. I don't know what we would do now, but if there are more public access issues that arise, like in the.

[Anya Kane]

We can always find something to complain about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm sure we can. We're very good at that. Cynthia says, been watching you for years, but your Delphi coverage made me join Patreon.

[Anya Kane]

Welcome.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, Cynthia, thank you so much. I hope this hasn't been too much of a horrific disappointment. Let's see. Pam said, how did the deli community react to Richard Allen's spouse? We don't. We don't know.

[Anya Kane]

Certainly in the court, everybody was very gracious to her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We didn't see any problems there. And, you know, I would hope, like, in a situation like this, it's like, I hope people would give a lot of grace. Kelly said, have you done anything nice for yourselves, to relax and unwind after trial yet, or do you plan to?

[Anya Kane]

Hopefully, at some point we'll do something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right now, we're just kind of processing.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, we have a. Yeah, it's. It's. It's odd. It's odd. It's odd.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I. I feel like. I feel like a different person some ways. I know that sounds crazy, but I just leave, like, a lot of. Like a lot of. A lot of nice experiences with people, but also a lot of faith lost in humanity. So it's. We'll try to do something. Jenna said, I went to a conference a few months ago and met someone who taught at Purdue and was familiar with Delphi. And at the time, there was a rumor that the Allens were split. I will say this for our reporting, that rumor certainly was going around. But we did get a statement from Kathy Allen, from her attorney, where we were able to clarify that she's. She's saying that they are not split, and she's standing by him. And certainly her conversations with reporters or her brief statement to reporters as she left indicates that as far as she's concerned, this isn't over. So that would almost indicate to me that she. That may have just been a rumor, but I don't know. I mean, but we just reported what we were given. Kelly said if Doug Carter wrote a forward, the innocenters would pick it apart for hidden messages. It'd be the Shack all over again. Oh, my God. The shack.

[Anya Kane]

Kristen loves us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, thank you. Thank you, Kristen. That's so sweet. Thanks.

[Anya Kane]

Is very happy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Love you guys, too. Like, seriously, thank you so much. Tracy said, Anya and Kevin keeping it together for the sake of the children. Please pass the microphone. Dear listeners, can you tell Kevin to pass the mixer? I don't even know that's the mixer. Well, that's our mixer. The road caster. You know. You know the parts. Yeah. We were very lucky Because I think we, I don't know, I think we relied on each other more during this experience rather than got mad at each other. Is that fair to say? Yeah, like, it was more of like, Kevin was my, like, life rap. He was very, very, very supportive and sweet. Even when I was having, like, a nervous breakdown. One of the days where I was just like, I don't want to see this. I don't want to see this stuff. But, you know, it was. Yeah, but he, he's a very supportive and loving.

[Anya Kane]

As are you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Aw, thanks. Let's see. I'm looking at your questions. Sadie says, I think you should use Sadie Johnson as an editor. So, Sadie, I don't, I don't know how it's going to work because we do have. It is a publisher, so we do have an editor. But we would at some point love to get some feedback from you and sort of look into it because we want this book to be as good as it can be and do right by the case, you know, if that makes sense. I want it to be really good. So we may be bothering you soon. Rebecca says. Do you think a lot of Delphi locals were afraid to speak honestly about whether they thought Richard was guilty? I don't know. It's a good question, Rebecca. I get the sense that not a lot of people knew him very well, so I don't know if people were scared. I think it's fair to say that people in Delphi have been, have been collectively traumatized by this case in the sense that people are aware, like, hey, if I go out and run my mouth in YouTube comments and it comes back to me, that could make my life miserable.

[Anya Kane]

And also, I think certainly online sometimes people have been reluctant to say they think Richard Allen is guilty because some of the pro Richard Allen people, some of the Richard Allen fan club people, are so enamored of him and so crankish that they threaten and attack anyone who says something that they perceive as being negative against Richard Allen. And so I think some people were afraid to speak up because of that, because they didn't want to be subjected to that sort of abuse.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think that's, that's, that's true to a certain extent for a lot of people, even people not from Delphi actually, because there's been a very vitriolic group here. Jenna says, I really hope you cover the Idaho 4 Brian Coburger case when it goes to trial. The way people are fawning over him, so eerily reminiscent about how people fond over Bundy. And I Fear the pro defense nonsense will be similar to this case, if not worse. We need more honesty and transparency in true crime reporting. Like y'all, Janet, first of all, thank you so much. And second of all, we would like to cover Idaho more. I think that's unfortunately, a case where we see the same exact thing happening as you do.

[Anya Kane]

And if other people have other cases that they think we should cover, please let us know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want there to be, like, sanity restored to true crime. Like, it doesn't need to be this way. And it's possible to ask thoughtful questions that may question the guilt of somebody or criticize the police or prosecution. It's possible to do that without slipping down the. Like, I'm going to have a poster of this guy in my room. Creepiness. And it just seems like we can have one without the other. It's really important that we do. Actually, it's important to me. Wendell says, did the trial ruin the song? Mama, don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys for anyone else. Wendell, what do you think? The awful. Like, I was when they said that, I was like. I was just sitting there, like, I'm losing my mind.

[Anya Kane]

Like, can you imagine hearing that and knowing that in a few hours, you're gonna have to go and sit in front of a microphone and repeat that to people?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm like, life isn't real at that point. I was. There were a couple of moments like that during trial. I'm like, what the heck am I seeing right now? Or hearing?

[Anya Kane]

Glenn says we could podcast about Indiana's football team. Oh, Lydia has an interesting idea. We can podcast about Zeppo Marx.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Vivo Zeppo Marx.

[Anya Kane]

It sounds like people want to hear about Zep.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Omar, this is gonna be our new signature case. Oh, my God. Kelly says Wendell, it's gonna be the new intro song from Murder Sheet. Get a. Give it. Get Kevin Tyler, Greenlee on it. On a. On a. On a tasteful kind of dark version of it.

[Anya Kane]

Rosie's concerned the bookcases are not behind us. We're in a different room today. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, we should have had it be like it all collapsed. No. Yeah. Rosie, where we moved downstairs for the time being, but we'll. The bookshelves will be back at some point for sure. Maria said, were there sticks on the girls Just an effort to conceal the bodies. Are you at liberty to discuss the staging without being disrespectful of the victims? When we do, I think we can discuss it because it was all at trial in the Sense that. You know, I personally think that it seemed to me like someone was starting to cover them with sticks and then may have given up. I mean, I. I think. Because there are not a lot of sticks on them, but, like, it. It's one of those things where I'm like, that doesn't really bother me because, like, it. It doesn't. It. They always just seem like sticks to me. They didn't seem, like, specifically arranged.

[Anya Kane]

And to me. And I. I think I may have said this a while ago when we saw the leap crime scene pictures, to me, there was nothing about those sticks that had any inherent meaning. In other words, that if you have the opinion today that the. The sticks were there in a pattern and you saw the picture, you think, oh, yeah, that was deliberate. But if you have the opinion. No, it was random. And you showed. You saw the picture, you say, yeah, the picture proves it. So I think the. The image of the sticks would just basically confirm whatever you already think. And I don't. I lost my cramp.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, and I think that's fair. I think that's absolutely fair. Missy Ann asked possible topics collab Lincoln's assassination with vintage villains. Oh, I love vintage. Yeah, they're great. Allison, we talked to her about. What did we talk about recently?

[Anya Kane]

John Dill.

[Kevin Greenlee]

John Dillinger. Oh, my word. That was really fun. She's super cool. And, yeah, Lincoln's assassination, what a time. One of my little interests, Tracy, says we need to meet and greet. Yeah, but you guys are everywhere. Can you all move to Indiana, please? We can all be wacky neighbors with each other.

[Anya Kane]

No, Maybe, like, everybody go to Hawaii for some reason. We talk a lot about Hawaii.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I wonder why Kevin keeps talking about that. Yeah, we'd love to do meet and greets. Maybe if we get our stuff together and do a book tour, we can kind of figure out where y'all are.

[Anya Kane]

And we did a live show in Kindleville. And then I think my hometown, Columbus, Indiana.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Somebody said, come here and do a live show.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that'd be cool. But I think we could figure something out. I think that would be really cool to meet some of you guys in person, and we dig it.

[Anya Kane]

Columbus has a place called Ye Olde Fish House.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How about Biscuits Across America podcast? That sounds delicious. Christina, did you meet Nancy Grace? If so, what was your impression? Miss you guys. And Anya, I didn't know you had such long, beautiful hair, Christina.

[Anya Kane]

Thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's all in a messy bun right now, but I really appreciate that. And yeah, we did meet Nancy Grace, she was. She was there to cover one of the mornings, and she was super nice. She didn't make a big deal about coming or anything. She was not like, oh, I'm Nancy Grace. Like, let me cut the line. She just. She seemed really nice and normal, and we had a nice kind of quick conversation with her, but very respectful. And she. She left after a little bit. I think she had a. I think she basically was, like, kind of stopping over on her way to something else. But. But, yeah, I. She was super nice.

[Anya Kane]

I would concur.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I had an embarrassing moment in front of her, actually. I don't. I. There was a spider that kept on, like. Like going down and then up.

[Anya Kane]

Anya doesn't like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't really care for spiders. I mean, they're. They're important, but I don't. I don't. I don't want to deal with them. I don't want them in my space.

[Anya Kane]

But you're willing to concede a spider is important?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm gonna. They're.

[Anya Kane]

They're.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They're God's creatures. And I tip my hat. Respectfully, from a distance, I've never seen.

[Anya Kane]

You tip your hat to us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Tip of the cap. Yes, milady.

[Anya Kane]

So there's a spider, and it scared you in front of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I think I must have looked insane because I was like, like, like. But, yeah, hopefully. Hopefully she didn't notice. Let's see. I'm going because we're squinching again. How about a crowd? Source funding for the transcripts. We can have people sponsor pages and have them all mailed to one address. Oh, my gosh. Maybe. I don't know.

[Anya Kane]

Rosie wants to see that episode about public access and the judge's team.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kevin's going to fight everyone in Allen county except the jurors and the alternates. I don't know. I think we. I think it would be probably worth doing something on the public access just to kind of. It might be good to, like, break out certain topics afterwards to kind of like, just kind of have a. Have a kind of a finding. Final conclusion there. Christina says, how far away do you live from Delphi? Where do you stay? How was your stay? Eat any good bacon? I had some good bacon at one point.

[Anya Kane]

I don't like bacon.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He doesn't eat pork. And how far away do we live from Delphi?

[Anya Kane]

Like, a bit, like, over an hour, maybe 90 minutes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

90 minutes. And we stayed in a couple of places.

[Anya Kane]

We stayed like, three or four different places, but including the hotel, we stayed in Fort Wayne.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, so we kind of were jumping around a bit, but. But it was good. It was a good stay. I mean, it was, it, it was, it was.

[Anya Kane]

We stayed in Lafayette. We also stayed in what looks like Monticello, but it's actually pronounced Monticello. Sello.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Missy Ann said, who tried to bully you in line on you.

[Anya Kane]

Can we say that person apologized to you later?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I will say. I want to say it's important to say the person did apologize a few. A few days later. And so I really appreciated that. So I don't want to make it a whole thing. I. One thing that was funny about this is that somehow because it's Delphi and because YouTubers are involved and because somehow this incident turned into like in line. Not like, not like before we talked about it. Somehow this turned into, I think after. No, I think after we talked about it. Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Anya mentioned it on the, on the podcast and then she's surprised that in the coming days she. Everybody's coming up to her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Who knifed Anya? It was like. Or like it was like Anya got in a karate fight with people. No, it was not.

[Anya Kane]

No one thought that people were acting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like Anya's fighting outside. And I'm like, no, I wasn't side. I was living my life.

[Anya Kane]

I think people understand that. Yeah, obviously Anya does fight and behave like that when I'm not around because I'm keeping things. I'm like Saddam Hussein in Iraq.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're like a little Lord Fauntleroy in the friggin court while I'm dealing with crises.

[Anya Kane]

When I'm God, you fall apart. You're fighting strangers in line.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But anyways, it, I don't, it's. We don't need to go into that because she did apologize and it's all cool. So it's. I'm not, I'm not. It was, it was just, I think when, when tensions are high, things happen and so that's all I'll say. Mal said, can't stay. Gotta get my girl to bed. We'll catch up later.

[Anya Kane]

We love Mallory.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Mallory, thank you. Thank you for swinging by.

[Anya Kane]

Let's see. Let's all go to Hawaii, says Teresa.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hawaii crossover murder sheet universe events.

[Anya Kane]

And we're getting caught up in the comments.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We actually are getting caught up. Let's see. Kelly says there is a Hawaiian themed tiki bar here in India that might be more affordable.

[Anya Kane]

There's a Hawaiian themed brunch place in Indianapolis.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There is, and it's really good.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, we're there today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's called A to Z. So I love them. Shout out. Kelly said Anya joined a gang. Yeah, that. Wouldn't that be, like a, like, not surprising, like, subplot in this podcast, somehow Anya learns a lesson about why you shouldn't join gangs.

[Anya Kane]

Anya joins the gang. It's more than she bargains.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Suddenly, we're like a horrible sitcom. For some reason, guys, I feel like, more, like, relaxed having done this, because I feel like at the beginning of this, I seemed really stiff, and now I'm just having a delightful time thinking about all this stuff. So I just want to say I really appreciate you guys. It's fun to hang out with you.

[Anya Kane]

Any is a badass, Sue.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I appreciate that, but I. I think. I think I could get my. I'm not. I'm not. Gene said, let's book a murder. She cruise to Hawaii. Yeah. Anya fought ninjas, Said Ed. Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you guys want to spread this around, I mean, it doesn't bother me. That's the kind of misinformation I like to say. Something where I'm, like, a cool fighter, far, far from reality.

[Anya Kane]

I'm not around. You just go crazy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm going nuts.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're the only stabilizing influence.

[Anya Kane]

I'm just relaxing upstairs in court, having refined conversations.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you know what? Maybe it's your fault for leaving me alone. Maybe you should have recognized that. Sir Kelly says that would be the after school special that I would tune into. Rosie Said. How about a murder sheet, Mr. Murder Mystery Cruise? Have you guys ever done, like, one of those murder mystery train rides? They can be wild. I've never done. I've actually never been on a cruise. I'm not gonna lie.

[Anya Kane]

You used to write about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I used. Well, I wrote about cruises during the pandemic when people were stuck on cruises. So I don't.

[Anya Kane]

She still worked for.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't feel like I have. I don't really. I feel like I have a proper understanding of the cruises. Anya's gang sounds like an after school program says chicken.

[Anya Kane]

Or it sounds like a Saturday morning show where obviously, talk to the kids.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hey, gang members. So ridiculous. See, it stinks because, like, I'm so. I'm so unhinged. On the podcast, everyone could totally see a subplot with me joining a gang, but if I said that about you, they would not think that I'm respectful. Kevin would never. He'd never do it.

[Anya Kane]

I'd never do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It'd be a gang of scholars going to the library or something.

[Anya Kane]

What are the cases that we followed?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Jenna Asked what other cases, she mentioned.

[Anya Kane]

The Suzanne Simpson case, which is a. Interesting case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're kind of coming up for air with Delphi now, although I'm sure there'll be a lot of coverage once the gag order ends. We've been covering Idaho, not to the same depth as Delphi, but I would love to get caught up with that and sort of go forward with that.

[Anya Kane]

Here's a potential preview of coming attractions. Today we get an email from someone saying, oh, I. I'm the lead detective on this case. A person just confessed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't give any too many details because we don't. Yeah, just cool your jets there, sir. But there, there might be some cool ones coming up.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, very cool person just confessed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What are you doing?

[Anya Kane]

It's interesting. It's an interesting case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Somebody said that we don't. I don't need to fight because I have a battleship. And that Anya Skang is the one with the battleship, says Teresa and Lydia. I'm just gonna say cruise. Cruise on the battleship on USS Kane. Is that what we're thinking?

[Anya Kane]

To Hawaii?

[Kevin Greenlee]

We have a battleship. As you know, my family is one of the most powerful families in New York.

[Anya Kane]

Should you explain that to people? Because they're not. And people may not know that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Context needed. So a bunch of nuts on the Internet. Once when we were doing our reporting on the so called due process gang, one of their big theories was that my family could afford to buy a battleship. Because I guess that's something the old moneyed people do now. I don't know.

[Anya Kane]

And they're so incredibly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because they're so incredibly wild and they're not. And, and my family is one of the most powerful families.

[Anya Kane]

And they're not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, I'm sure. I mean like, no offense, family love you guys. But I, I think we'd all agree here that that's not the case. So that is what that joke is about.

[Anya Kane]

They're just ordinary Joes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They're. They're great. I love my family, but we're not the most powerful family in New York. The regular just nice people. Oh, let's see. Oh my gosh. I could go undercover in an Odinous gang, said Wendell. No.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, we went to Kristen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We went to a mystery.

[Anya Kane]

Kristen mentions the Mystery train. And Anya mentioned that because we went.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was actually the same day. Remember when everyone was acting like there was an arrest in Delphi because some random YouTube. Sorry, Facebook page posted that there was. They're like, you know, 20 police cars spotted in the Delphi area. It turned out there Was a Purdue football game going on. So great job, everybody. But we. We spent that car ride to the train on the phone with all of the journalists in the Indianapolis area who were calling us and saying, was there just an arrest? My assignment editor emailed me, and we're like, no, we don't know like, what? No. And then it turned out the was not. So that's my mystery train story.

[Anya Kane]

Well, and then we went on a mystery train, had an awful time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It wasn't you. Don't be mean. Don't be mean to the mystery train. Gosh. Ann said, in case you were wondering, we will not tire more Delphi content as you both decompress and process. Thank you, Ann. Yeah, I figured there might be opportunities to interview people or get more context or do more reporting, so you can anticipate more of that, I imagine. Hopefully. Unless no one will talk to us, which I guess is always possible, but, you know, that would be something to think about. And Kayla notes, I would love to hear y'all cover Asia degree again. Yeah, that's a case where I would love to loop back in and see if there's been any further developments. I know it kind of seemed to be going there for a while, but sometimes, unfortunately, in cases, you can see that spurt of activity and then nothing happens. And that's always really frustrating. Sue says, yes, but not the cane. Mutiny. Great movie. Yeah. Who would dare Mutiny against me, though? Let's see. And Teresa. I love it when a plane comes together. Anya's gang cruises to Hawaii on Battleship Kane. It sounds like Mad Lips. Sounds like something out of one of Kevin's nightmares.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like he. I feel like you'd have a nightmare where I was unreasonably trying to get together a battleship cruise and be like, anya, we can't do this.

[Anya Kane]

And then a lot of nightmares about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You do have a. He has a lot of nightmares where he has nightmares, specifically about me having ridiculous schemes. That's the nature of our relationship, and I'm always offended by it, but it is pretty delightful.

[Anya Kane]

I can't find the Frankenstein.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll find the Frankenstein for you guys. We're gonna. You're gonna see Frankenstein. Frankenstein's monster and the sharks. We're gonna. We're gonna. I'll find them.

[Anya Kane]

Are we done? I think we're caught up. And I think we've been talking to the good people. We've been testing their patience now for a long time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That is a long time. But we. We really enjoyed this. Thank you all for coming and bearing with Us being ridiculous and where are you going?

[Anya Kane]

It looks like he won't talk.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay. He's like searching for something in the comments. I'm scared. But yeah, we had a really delightful time and just know that it really means a lot if, again, if you're new, this is kind of how our lives are. We just sort of respond to comments and answer questions and like that's kind of. But it's a fun time. I think it's a fun time.

[Anya Kane]

Wendell has a question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, Wendell has one question. Now that the trial is over, any plans on another read sheet? Oh, yeah. Heck yeah. We're gonna, we just have to figure out what we're gonna read. So stay tuned.

[Anya Kane]

Maybe something about zeppelin marks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Or, Or. Yeah, but we're gonna, we're gonna continue to do that for sure. And then Cynthia says, now that I know about any is gang, you two storming the back of the courthouse on verdict day. Makes sense. Yeah, it was actually us and a bunch of guys like with toothpicks in their mouth like flipping coins who, who bullied the, the deputies and letting us break in there. Now I'm imagining like an old timey gang. But yeah, if you're new, we really, it really, it really means a lot that you're here and we hope you enjoyed it and just, you know.

[Anya Kane]

Thank you, Donna.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, Donna, thank you so much.

[Anya Kane]

My first live love.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're really glad you enjoyed it and yeah, we just, we just really appreciate you being here and supporting us and it's been, it's been really fun. But this is like such a nice catharsis for us to talk to you finally after all of this time and studded jacket for any. Oh my gosh, I'm gonna start a girl gang. This is so exciting. See, this is what Patreon does. Like you come in, you don't think you're in a gang, then you're part of a gang and, and it's a, it's a whole thing.

[Anya Kane]

Definitely. We're in an exploitation movie from the 60s.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And I love that. I love that for me. But yeah. Take care of yourselves with Patreon. Again. If you're new, let us know if you have any issues or questions. Murdersheet, gmail.com. just feel free to message us about anything. You can also message us on Patreon. We'll probably see that first.

[Anya Kane]

And, and we're still catching on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We are catching up. If you sent us a message on Patreon recently, I'm so sorry, but we will get back to you. Hopefully next week, but. But yeah, thank you all so much.

[Anya Kane]

Thank you so much. Really do appreciate it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And you just have a great rest of your evening. I never know. I never know how to end it. But. But just this is how I am on phone calls too. It's like, love you, Bye. God bless. Take care. Kevin's gonna slide out, but yeah, thanks again and just have a great one.

[Anya Kane]

All right, thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Bye bye.

[Anya Kane]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at wwpatreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Anya Kane]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy, well, being like he does it all, this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space. Just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[Anya Kane]

On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

He's been a really good friend to us. And so it's, it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think, I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show. He's been on our show a couple times. We've been on his show. He's a terrific guest. I, I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason, Jason said this. That really resonated. Like, I do quote him in, in, in conversation sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different, complicated.

[Anya Kane]

She quotes him to me all the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think, and, and you like us, you, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can, can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[Anya Kane]

It's compassionate, it's affirming. But I, I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is, is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And he's got a great community that, that he's building, so we're really excited to be a part of that. We're really, we're fans of the show. We love it and we would strongly encourage you all just check it out, download some episodes, listen. I think you'll, you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings handbook wherever you listen to.

[Anya Kane]

Podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts. Very easy to find.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely.

[Anya Kane]

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