The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Eighteen: Closing Arguments

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Summary Episode: The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Eighteen: Closing Arguments
Release Date: November 8, 2024
Hosts: Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee

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Introduction

In this pivotal episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain, a seasoned journalist, and Kevin Greenlee, an attorney, delve into the final stages of the Richard Allen trial concerning the harrowing Delphi murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. Episode Day Eighteen: Closing Arguments focuses on dissecting the compelling final statements from both the prosecution and defense, setting the stage for the jury's imminent verdict.

Content Warning

Before proceeding, the hosts issue a content warning: this episode contains discussions of the brutal murders of two young girls and sensitive topics surrounding mental health, including suicide.

Prosecution’s Closing Arguments

Timestamp [09:55]
The prosecution, led by attorney Nick McLean, presents a detailed and emotionally charged closing argument. McLean emphasizes the emotional and factual buildup of the case against Richard Allen, referring to him as "Bridge Guy" due to his presence on surveillance footage during the abduction.

• Key Points:
  • Timeline and Evidence: McLean meticulously outlines the timeline of February 13, 2017, highlighting crucial moments such as the girls' disappearance, the discovery of their bodies, and the subsequent investigation that tied Allen to the crime scene through forensic evidence.
  • Emotional Connection: He skillfully intertwines facts with emotional appeals, describing the fear evident in the victims' voices and the tear on Liberty German's cheek, painting a vivid picture of the crime's brutality.
  • Forensic Findings: Emphasis is placed on the bullet found at the crime scene, traced back to Allen's own firearm by forensic expert Melissa Oberg. McLean states, "the bullet at the crime scene had been cycled through Richard Allen's gun" ([14:59]).
  • Digital and Physical Evidence: The prosecution highlights the consistency of witness testimonies identifying Allen as Bridge Guy and the significance of phone data linking Allen to the crime.

Notable Quote:

"Bridge Guy stole the life away from Abby and Libby. [...] Liberty's tear and Abby's fearful face tell a story words alone cannot express." – Nick McLean [09:55]

Defense’s Closing Arguments

Timestamp [60:26]
The defense, represented by attorney Rosie Baldwin, delivers a closing argument that attempts to sow doubt about Allen's guilt by highlighting perceived inconsistencies and shortcomings in the prosecution's case.

• Key Points:
  • Broken Timeline: Baldwin argues that the prosecution's timeline is flawed, suggesting that there are gaps and uncertainties that undermine the case against Allen.
  • Bungled Ballistics: She questions the reliability of the ballistic evidence presented, mocking the prosecution’s reliance on the so-called "magic bullet."
  • False Confessions and Digital Forensics: The defense casts doubt on the authenticity of Allen's confessions obtained during his incarceration and challenges the interpretation of digital evidence, such as phone data.
  • Questioning Witness Credibility: Baldwin targets the credibility of witnesses like Sarah Carbaugh, arguing that discrepancies in their testimonies should lead the jury to discount their statements altogether.
  • Allegations of Police Misconduct: An attempt is made to shift focus towards alleged overreach and poor handling of the case by law enforcement, though Áine and Kevin critique the relevance of these points to the central crime.

Notable Quote:

"They want you to think that Richard Allen was an alcoholic... But you can't blame him for finding God in those circumstances." – Rosie Baldwin [96:02]

Hosts’ Analysis and Insights

Throughout the episode, Áine and Kevin provide critical analysis of both sides' arguments, often expressing skepticism towards the defense's attempts to create reasonable doubt.

• Questioning the Defense’s Strategy: Áine notes the defense's final arguments seemed disjointed and too focused on peripheral issues rather than the core facts of the case. She remarks, "It was just a laundry list of grievances with some very good points mixed in with a bunch of nonsense." ([107:48])

• Prosecution's Strengths: Kevin praises McLean’s logical and methodical presentation, stating, "The totality of the evidence is devastating," underscoring how multiple pieces of evidence collectively build a strong case against Allen ([93:47]).

• Defense’s Weaknesses: The hosts are particularly critical of the defense's emotional appeals and use of historical torture imagery, which they find irrelevant and over-the-top. Áine shares, "It sounded like something a character on Saturday Night Live would do." ([98:29])

Notable Host Quote:

Áine Kane: "We have to do analysis. We're not just going to ramble." ([108:31])

Key Evidence Discussed

1. Surveillance Footage:

   • Bridge Guy Identification: Multiple witnesses identified Allen as Bridge Guy, with consistent descriptions corroborating his presence at the crime scene.

2. Forensic Evidence:

   • Bullet Analysis: A bullet recovered from the scene was directly linked to Allen’s firearm, reinforcing the prosecution’s position.

3. Phone Data:

   • Missing Phone: The absence of Allen's phone from 2017 raises suspicions, although the defense downplays this as inconsequential.

4. Confessions:

   • Recorded Admissions: Allen's recorded confessions to his wife and mother, where he admits to the murders, serve as a critical piece of evidence.

5. Physical Evidence:

   • Blue Carhartt Jacket and Descriptions: Items found at Allen’s home that match descriptions from the crime scene, adding to the body of evidence.

Conclusion and Verdict Awaited

As closing arguments conclude, the jury moves into deliberation. Áine and Kevin express their anticipation and offer a brief overview of possible outcomes: conviction, acquittal, or a hung jury leading to a mistrial.

Final Remarks:

• Hosts’ Sentiments: Both hosts convey empathy for the victims' families and frustration with the lengths the defense went to undermine the prosecution’s case.

Notable Host Quote:

Kevin Greenlee: "The whole thing is awful." ([107:40])

Looking Forward

The episode wraps up with Áine and Kevin preparing listeners for the next steps in the trial, promising to return with more insights once a verdict is reached. They express gratitude towards their audience for their support during this emotionally charged case.

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Notable Exclusions: The summary omits advertisements, promotional segments, and non-content discussions to maintain focus on the trial’s substantive aspects.

Listeners: Whether you're a true crime aficionado or new to the Murder Sheet podcast, this episode offers an in-depth examination of the final legal battle in a case that has captivated national attention.

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For more in-depth analysis, interviews, and true crime stories, subscribe to the Murder Sheet on your preferred podcast platform.

Transcript

[Anya Kane]

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[Anya Kane]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls, as well as issues around mental health, including suicide.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Today was an especially momentous day in the trial of Richard Allen for the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams in Delphi, Indiana. Because it was the last day for the lawyers. Basically it was the day they gave their final arguments to the jurors and now is going to be up to the jurors to decide what happens next. And so we are going to tell you all about it today.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a Journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Delphi Murders. Richard Allen on trial day 18. Closing arguments. It. First of all, some housekeeping.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Some housekeeping.

[Anya Kane]

We're always doing housekeeping. So we want to thank our wonderful line sitters for today, Joe and Kay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Both of whom, correct me if I'm mistaken, but both of those fine, fine individuals, those high class, sophisticated individuals. K and Joe. Both of them are now members of the Two Timers Club.

[Anya Kane]

I think Kay's done more than twice. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is K in the Thrice Club?

[Anya Kane]

Thrice. She's done it many times and we very much appreciate her. And we also welcome Jo to the Two Timers Club. Absolutely. Why are you looking at Thrice?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I don't know what I'm saying. It's been a long month for all of us, so.

[Anya Kane]

But it was a long night for them. They braved, you know, the cold and all sorts of manners of things to. To do this for us. And we just want to really express our appreciation. Thank you to everyone who lines that for us. And thank you for everyone who just volunteered. I mean, it really means a lot, and we just want you to know we appreciate all of you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I think someone could potentially do a very interesting podcast. It's called Tales from the Line, because so many odd and peculiar things happen there.

[Anya Kane]

And nice things. There's a beautiful dog named Red there that was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I loved Red.

[Anya Kane]

We read, was beloved, and there was. There's just a lot of. There's bad stuff, good stuff, weird stuff, everything in between, and we. But we just want everyone again for. For everyone who did it, everyone who volunteered. A lot of very nice people offered us, like, lodging for free or discounted rates, things like that. Just so many people were so kind. And we just want to say thank you to all of you because it meant a lot. And.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we're so far behind on email. We're gonna try to catch up after all of this is over. We apologize for that, and we remain deeply grateful for all of you. And we love getting positive emails.

[Anya Kane]

What is. What a weird thing to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I mean, it's true.

[Anya Kane]

Kevin. Greenlee, I love getting positive emails.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We got an email this morning. The subject line was, I love Anya Kane. You were as happy as a clam.

[Anya Kane]

Well, it was very nice. Yeah, but. But, you know, I'm okay. Well, thank you to that person, and it's very nice. But. But anyways, we can, we can move along now into the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The day, unless you want to talk more about email.

[Anya Kane]

Let's talk more about why I'm great. No, I'm just kidding.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, as we said, today was closing arguments for the defense and prosecution in the Richard Allen case. Let's talk a little bit about process. Before the arguments began, Judge Gull read some instructions to the jury that specifically pertained to the details of this case. And after closing arguments ended, she read more instructions that were more general. One thing people often ask me about, these jury instructions, they're always read by the judge, and they always sound like, in a monotone. The judge always says them in a monotone. And people ask me, why do they do that? Are they just trying to make it extra, extra dull? And no, they're not. As I think we all know, a lot of meaning, whether intentional or otherwise, can be put into tone. And so, for instance, if Anya said to me, oh, you made a lovely meal last night. It was the best thing I've ever had. That's really sweet and wonderful. But if she said, oh, Kevin, you made a lovely meal last night, it was the best thing I ever had, it takes on a different meaning. Not that she would ever speak to me like that. Of course not.

[Anya Kane]

Not at all. I'm very sweet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the judges, in these instances, they want to make sure that they are reading the instructions devoid of all tone, so that the jurors aren't thinking, oh, the judge is emphasizing this, or the judge's voice seems to go up there. That judge must think that's extra. The judge must think this. This part isn't as important. So that's why they have it in this kind of monotone. It is, frankly kind of dull to listen to. But there is that reason for it.

[Anya Kane]

It makes sense. And I appreciate you explaining that because, yeah, it's like you don't. You don't want to, especially when you're dealing with people who are going to be deciding things and maybe you're not, you know, they're not going to be attorneys who are going to be on the jury. So you, you don't want to be setting anything up for failure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did you find anything about the specific instructions interesting to you as a. As a lay person?

[Anya Kane]

Not even a little bit. It was interesting. Some of the reporters were kind of pouring over them, and it just all sounded very boilerplate to me. We can talk about some of it. But I will say before we get into that. Do you mind if I note? Just because people are always asking who's in the gallery.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Kane]

So today was the second time we actually saw Britney Zaponta, who is Richard Allen's daughter there. So she was there with her aunt Jamie Jones, his half sister, Marvin Allen, his stepfather, Janice Allen, his mother, and of course, Kathy Allen, his wife. So the Allens were very much represented here today, including the daughter, Britney. So this is the second time we've seen her in court. The first time was when she testified. I just wanted to note that. And then, yeah, the jury instructions were pretty boring.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, I'm happy to skip over it.

[Anya Kane]

I mean, let's at least give a. An attempt here. Talked about the jury is the judge on the law and facts. They're going to be determining the facts. And.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, and then basically, here's what Richard Allen is charged with. You have to believe that he did these things and they, they kind of.

[Anya Kane]

Get into a definition. Maybe we'll talk about this a little bit more at the end. But a definition of what is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, what does that mean? We all heard the phrase, we all know the phrase, but what the. What does that actually mean when you're determining what is reasonable doubt versus all doubt? So we'll talk about that later, I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Kane]

So then we get to Nicholas McLean's final closing argument.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wasn't even. Wasn't his final closing argument.

[Anya Kane]

Well, no, his closing argument.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we get into that, I think, obviously, really the ultimate scorecard of who gives a good closing and a bad closing is really rendered by the jury, depending on how they vote. But with that said, one way in my mind to judge whether a closing argument is really good and strong or is not, is what it covers. I like it when a closing argument actually addresses in some detail the facts of the crime that is the subject of the trial. Because it seems to me that if, if attorneys choose not to highlight the actual facts of the crime that is the subject of the trial, it must be because they're making a decision, oh, if we talk about that, that's not good for us. And that makes me think, well, maybe their case is weak and it makes me less interested in what they have to say, frankly.

[Anya Kane]

How do you feel about random pictures of snakes? I'm foreshadowing here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya's foreshadowing about an unfortunate turn that was taken near the end of Rosie's closing statement. So with that said, let's talk. Nick McClelan got up about 9:17am this morning. And he began speaking. He focused squarely on February 13, 2017. He said that that was a day this community would never forget. That was a day Libby and Abby went for a walk and never returned. And he hearkened back to the early days of the trial where he said, we said in our opening statement that we would give you evidence to convict Richard Allen. And we have, yes.

[Anya Kane]

And he talked about, you know, his thesis in the mini opening onward has been the case is about the. A bullet bridge guy and the brutal murder of two girls. So this is a situation where he.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kept the focus on that topic. He talked about how on the morning of February 13, 2017, Becky Patty is at home with Liberty German and Abigail Williams, who had spent the night. The girls were playing with a new puppy, and they got the idea to go out to the trails. And the last thing Liberty German said to her grandmother was, grandma, it will be okay.

[Anya Kane]

And I was impressed. One thing to note with this is McLeland really does know how and, you know, gets in the emotional moments along with the facts. He's been consistently able to do that. It's not just dry facts, but it's also not just emotionalism and sort of like, like, because again, while that's certainly powerful, that's. That shouldn't be what carries the day. It should be the facts. And I feel like he's kind of. He's been able to kind of braid them together in a way that's been, I think, compelling.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So he talked about Kelsey driving Abby and Libby to the trails. He indicates that she dropped them off at about 1:48pm and we have a pretty good idea of the time for several reasons, one of which is that Libby was posting onto Snapchat something pictures of her and Abby in the. In the vehicle. And he actually showed one of those pictures on the big TV screen they had. I thought that was effective.

[Anya Kane]

I think this closing argument had a lot of effective use of images. There was essentially a slideshow to a company with it. Frankly, when I saw that they were doing stuff with that big TV that's had so many problems, I was a little bit like, oh, but in this case, it went relatively smoothly. And. And they were allowed to essentially illustrate some of the things he was talking about. So you're seeing this image of Libby kind of looking goofy. Abby's in the back seat, like, it's just like normal kids having a good time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But as we all know, things didn't stay normal for long. And he started talking about how.

[Anya Kane]

Also, I will say this, you said, we know how when they got out. Also, Liberty German unplugged her phone right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On the data at 1:48pm and things didn't seem normal. Things were not normal for long because at 3:30 you talked about how Liberty German's father, Derek, called his mother Becky Patty and indicated he could not find the girls. And at some point after 5pm on the night of February 13, the family contacted law enforcement to report that the girls had gone missing. One of the first members of law enforcement to take that call actually went under the Monon High Bridge and he went down this access road that we've heard so much about that leads to the property belonging to Brad Weber. This is a gentleman who testified very early in the case and this deputy interacted with Brad Weber. Brad Weber seemed fine and normal to him. He said, brad Weber, there's some girls missing. Do we have permission to search your property? And Weber consented readily, yes.

[Anya Kane]

And they talked about other law enforcement joined in. The search went on until 2:00am as McLean put it, quote, no one is looking for two dead bodies, end quote. He talked about how no one suspected malfeasance. Basically what everyone thought was either there's been some sort of very tragic accident or maybe more likely the girls are alive and lost and scared. You know, Those were the two competing theories. And what McClellan said about like in terms of thinking that this might be some horrific double murder is quote, that doesn't happen around here. Small communities, those types of things don't happen.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

I-Y-O.com the search, as Anya mentioned, ended around 2am it resumed the next day at about 7am and McLean reminded us that it was Pat Brown who found the bodies the next day around noon. And also in that time, some clothing belonging to Libby and Abby was discovered in the creek. And at this point, as Anya mentioned, that there was a very effective slideshow. And so there were images of the clothes in the creek, I imagine, taken soon after it was found.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely, yeah. And again, I felt like compelling use of images here. And what. What I feel like McLeland is doing at this point is like, it's just, you know, the timeline is important and taking you through the entire story is important. That's sort of what the state's case has been. And he's kind of linking it all together. So the jury is leaving with that in mind in a way.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So he talks about how a deputy in daylight walks right past where the bodies were and didn't see them because they were that well hidden.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, Giancola.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we've also heard other people describe that where they were, where they were located was in a section of land that I think was similar to a bull.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, bull. A little bit of a depression. So it wasn't like, you know, you could essentially be right near them and be missing them until you sort of step to the side and then maybe you're. You get at a better angle.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So at this point, McLean warns us that we're going to show you what. What they saw. And he showed on that monitor the. Some pictures, some images of the bodies of Abby and Libby. And again, these. These are horrible pictures to see.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, horrifying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He talks about how some of the crime scene technicians came in and they documented everything. We see a picture of the phone when it was discovered, and McLean mentions that it had leaves and water and dirt on it. He also shows the gallery, and more importantly, the jury, a picture of the bullet as it was seen when it was discovered. I think that was the first time I'd actually seen a picture of the bullet as it was at the crime scene. Had you seen that before?

[Anya Kane]

I had not, because I think we were some of the days we've been sitting in an angle that's not been conducive to that. But, yeah, that. We also reviewed again, the video that was on that phone, you said.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we took the phone and we took the video off and they played the video and the first thing they did was they showed the video, the original version of the video. And I think the more times they've seen it, more times it's been shown, I think it becomes easier and easier to see some of these details in it, at least for me. Is that your experience?

[Anya Kane]

That's been my experience. The first time I saw it, I was like, I don't know what that was. And it was hard to see. I don't even think I saw Bridge Guy the first time I saw it. And the more and more I see it, the more and more I hear. And I'm, like, noticing all the little details, and I can hear how scared they are. And that makes my heart break for them. I feel like it sounds like. And I've said this to other people. Like, it's almost. And again, I'm. I'm speculating here, but just from being a person in the world, like, I. There's been times where, like, if I'm around another woman or just another person, and there's kind of a threatening male in the area, frankly, like, I'm sure we. I'm sure many people, man and woman, have been in a situation like this. Just a threatening person is in the area, and you're not really sure what their deal is. You almost sometimes, like, kind of go into a mode of, like, oh, hey, how are you? So, what are we doing for lunch today? Like, you're almost kind of, like, trying to act like everything's normal just because, like, you're hoping whatever this is is going to blow over and not be a big deal. Like, you kind of go into that mode. And the way the girls are talking, you know, Abby's asking at one point, is he behind me? And then Libby's almost saying, like, oh, the trail ends here. And, like, you know, like. But it's kind of like, I think they say hi to him after he says, guys. It's like they're trying to, like, cling to some sort of normalcy, because it's like they're just hoping that they're misunderstanding almost like that. Is that what you've kind of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what I took from it. You mentioned that you could hear the fear in their voices. McLeland also made that point, and he also said you could also see the fear on Abby's face. Yes, and you definitely could. And it is heartbreaking to see that because in some manner, she understood the danger this man represented to her. And that's. That's awful to think about what she must have been Experiencing the.

[Anya Kane]

Sometimes instinctively you, you have a bad feeling about somebody and it feels like that was happening for both Abby and Libby here, where this was not sort of blitz attack, where they were not seeing it coming. This was something where it was a buildup of dread. And that just like, I guess like on some level, one of the things that's been so hard about this trial is that you feel like, like you always hoped that maybe whatever awful thing happened to them, it was over quickly. And like, that's not the case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's not the case. And I, I to digress a bit. I've always been interested in the Kennedy assassination. And sometimes when I watch this awful Z video of that assassination, I find myself hoping, you know, maybe this time it will end differently. Maybe they won't take that turn, maybe there'll be no bullets fired. But of course it always ends with President Kennedy's head being blown apart. And when I watch this video, which I've now seen, I forget how many times in court I find myself hoping that something is going to happen, that someone is going to come out and save them or there's going to be some great turn of events. But it's not. It's not. They are kidnapped and they are murdered. And McLean makes the point that this bridge guy, he used a gun to secure them. He said, we know that for several reasons, one of which is one of the girls makes a comment about that be a gun. And also, of course, there was a.40 caliber bullet found at the crime scene.

[Anya Kane]

You can hear a gun racking.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You can hear a gun racking. I want to ask you. We've heard people say that. It says, she says that be a gun. I'm not sure if that's what I think she says or if she says, abby, a gun.

[Anya Kane]

I don't know. I don't, I, I could see it either way. I feel like law enforcement, when they're talking about it, have said that be a gun. But I can also see where people might say, abby, a gun. Either way, a gun is definitely mentioned. I'd be curious if this is something where maybe law enforcement is like, looked into like, like Libby, if she used slang or like how, how her addiction would normally be. And maybe they kind of determine based on that or if they've just listened to it so many times that they've come to the, the idea that that's what she's saying as opposed to Abby. But I'm, I'm gonna say this like, you know, this is where a lot of people get Hung up. How could one man kidnap two girls? Multip kidnapping of multiple people happens. And it, it's certainly expedited by guns. You know, if someone is pointing a gun at you and your best friend and you're 14 and 13, I don't think this is some sort of surprising, hard to believe thing. I mean, we've. One of the cases we've done extensively is the Burger Chef murders. I mean, no one exactly knows what happened to those kids, but that was in the production of four young people who are all a bit older than Abby and Libby. And that was successfully pulled off. I mean, I think in that case there were multiple people involved, but at the same time, like, there's also more kidnap victims. And when you are controlling people with a gun, some people's reaction to that might be to run. Maybe you'd like to think that your reaction would be to run, but I ask you to, like, have some empathy and think about your 13, 14 year little girl in the woods with your best friend. Maybe your reaction is to try to comply because you think that that will be what saves you. That's. We have different modes of dealing with fear. You have fight, flight, fawn, freeze. So there's. To me, there's no, like, I feel like a lot of people don't seem to get that. And I don't understand it because it's like, have you ever been a kid, have you ever been, like, in a scary situation? Like, do you really. Do you really. Are you really that confident that your first move is to throw a haymaker or to just sprint away, leaving your best friend there? I don't understand. I think that's. That's just not realistic. What I'm saying is, like, I think it's. I think it's completely normal for a person to be able to gain control over multiple people using a gun.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree. McLean went on to talk about how law enforcement subsequently enhanced the video. And not for the first time, he praised Libby German for deciding to record. He said something, told her she needed to record, and then they played the enhanced version of the video, which just makes it even more striking because you can see he's a certain distance away from Abby on the bridge. The camera moves away, and when the camera comes back, he's so much closer and he's just getting closer and closer and just. It's awful to think about. And again, McLela mentions the fear in the voices of the girl and the fear particularly on Abby's face. So then he started talking about some of the Witnesses that he brought in. He talked about how Brienne Wilber got on the trails around 12:25, walked to the Monon High Bridge and then walked back to the freedom Bridge about 1:26pm she took a picture of a bench and then she sees a man who seems kind of creepy and a bit rude to them. And she's testified that that man was bridge guy.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. And really Voorhees was also mentioned here as having that kind of interaction too. Seeing the person that she is very confident is bridge guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You also talked about Betsy Blair.

[Anya Kane]

Betsy Blair, she came back from doing some loops, got to the MO on High Bridge, notice a man on the first platform. Her Fitbit places her there and about 2pm about 2pm he's on the first platform and quote, he seemed to be watching for someone, end quote. And then when she's heading on her way back, she passes Abby and Libby.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Walking towards the Monon High Bridge. Also talked about Sarah Carbaugh. Remind us what who she is and what she saw.

[Anya Kane]

Close to 4pm Sarah Carbaugh, a young woman driving on 300 North Drives Path which is when I saw pictures recently. I was shocked by how narrow it looked when in my mind's eye I suppose I was picturing a much wider road but it is very, very narrow. And off the side of the road she saw a man walking. He the top of his like most of his body was covered in mud and the toward the bottom of his pants was blood bloody. And she said it looked like he had quote slaughtered a pig. And he was kind of all hunched up not really acknowledging her. She assumed in her testimony that he had fallen down while hiking.

[Kevin Greenlee]

McLean made the point that all of these witnesses that he just referred to that we've just mentioned, all of them give slightly different descriptions of the person they saw, but all of them agree that the person they saw was bridge guy from the video.

[Anya Kane]

Does do the discrepancies in these witnesses bother you? I'm curious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Kane]

Why not?

[Kevin Greenlee]

For a number of reasons, one of which is eyewitnesses are notoriously unreliable. And another reason is if I see someone I'm looking out the window towards outside and if I see somebody 10ft or further from me who's trying to hide their face, I'm probably not going to be able to give you a good description of their face, but I would be able to give you a good description of what they're wearing and how they walk. And so I feel these witnesses had trouble seeing the face of this person, but they all Remember his clothes and how he walks and how he moves. And then they. They remember that and they take their memories and they say, oh, this person I'm seeing is also the person in this video. What about you? What do you think?

[Anya Kane]

That is exactly how I feel. It doesn't bother me at all. I think it would be problematic if they were in court saying, pointing at Rashad and saying, that's the man I saw. If they were all getting complete discrepancies, that would, that would, that would certainly bother me. But they're not. What they're saying is, we saw. We saw Bridge Guy. We saw whoever Bridge Guy was. And Richard Allen in this case did the rest for the state because he was consistently putting himself in all of those situations. He claims he passed a group of girls around the same time. He says he was on the first platform of the bridge looking at fish after checking his stock ticker, even though his phone never appears on the trails that day. And, well, he doesn't match the Sarah Carbaugh thing. But I guess these other two instances he's putting himself in the clothing of Bridge Guy in the places that Bridge Guy was. So he's the most, in some ways, the most important witness there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

McLean moved on to the fact that investigator Steve Mullen was able to go to the Hoosier Harvest store where they had a security camera that picked up some traffic. And by looking at this footage and looking at the timestamp on the traffic, that is able. That makes them able to pinpoint when certain people are arriving or leaving or what have you. And so that enables them to see exactly when Kelsey German was there, when Betsy Blair was there, when Sarah Carball was there. And I think this is the first time I recall seeing images from this video. Is it the first time you've seen them?

[Anya Kane]

Yes, if they've been shown before, we haven't seen them because maybe we're at a bad angle. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What, what did you think about the quality of the images?

[Anya Kane]

I think most of the video is like the parking lot and then some kind of grass and then the road is a little bit more distant. So it's not like when they showed the original ones. It was a bit hard for me to see the cars in the background, but then they zoomed in on some of them and I mean, it seemed one of those things where it's not going to give you a license plate, but it's certainly going to give you an approximation, like not an even approximation, a pretty clear image of the car. In my view.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Kane]

Like, I mean you're going to see maybe like not entirely what type of car it is, but certainly what the frame looks like. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it actually was a little bit better than I thought it was.

[Anya Kane]

Better than I thought it would be too. I thought it was going to be really blurry and ambiguous. It really wasn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I, I, I, yeah, so I, I was, I was surprised. It was much better than I expected.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And it looked like his car in my mind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Whose car?

[Anya Kane]

Alan's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We haven't even gotten that.

[Anya Kane]

Okay, but, okay, fine. But I, well, okay, I was, I was surprised by how clear it was, but it was, you know, I, it also the same thing. It's not, you're not gonna be like one on one identifying because that would require looking at a license plate in my view.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So then McLean started talking about how they did an extraction on Libby's phone. It reveals, as Anya mentioned, that they disconnected it from the car at 148. And he indicated that some more images were posted to Snapchat after they were dropped off. And so that enables them to kind of trace Abby and Libby as they are going from the Mears lot towards the Monon High Bridge. And of course he reminded us that Libby's phone shows that it was not moved after 2:32pm and then he went and he kind of put it all together. He says, so we know. At 12:25, Brienne arrives at Freedom Bridge. Starts walking towards the Monon high bridge. At 12:43 she arrives there. She takes pictures. She turns around 126, she takes the picture of the bench. Shortly afterwards she sees bridge guy. 146, Betsy Blair passes the Hoosier harvest store and she starts walking to the Monon High Bridge. Has her encounter there with Bridge Guy. 148, Kelsey German drops off Abby and Libby and the girls start to the Monon High Bridge. Pardon me. So at 2:00, Betsy Blair actually reaches the Monon High Bridge. Not before. And when she is there, she sees bridge guide. She goes back to the Mirror's lot. And on the way she encounters Abby and Libby on their way to the bridge. And of course the video of Abby and Libby's kidnapping begins at 2:13pm and at 2:32pm the phone stops moving. And at 3:56, Sarah Carbaugh sees the muddy and bloody man. And as McLeland is saying all of this, he's standing in front of the digital map and he's kind of making marks on It. So people can really follow along all of this much better than you probably can just listening to us.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. And again, that was a good use of visuals, in my opinion, in this case, because it probably sounds like we're throwing a lot at you, and I feel like we are. But when you're seeing it kind of all develop on this map, it's a little bit easier to follow, in my view. He talked about how Bridge Guy is on video kidnapping the girls, and after that they are dead. Therefore, he's, you know, that's felony kidnapping. I'm sorry, Felony murder via kidnapping. And quote, and he said, like, the. The goal became, quote, if we can determine who Bridge Guy is, we can determine who killed Libby and Abby, end quote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At this point, we do what the kids call a time jump, and we jump ahead to 2022. And this is when volunteer Kathy Shank finds a lead sheet from that was created or written by Dan Doolin. And the information in that lead sheet, it concerns a man, Richard Allen, who says he was on the trail from 1:30 to 3:30, says he saw girls. And she realizes how important this is, and she takes it to Tony Liggett. And Liggett also realizes how important it is because he knows that the girls that Richard Allen says he saw, they saw Bridge Guy.

[Anya Kane]

I mean, this is such an important moment in this whole investigation that I just don't want to overlook what. What Ms. Shank did. I mean, that cannot be overstated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We would not be here, we would not be having this trial if it were not for her.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, kudos for. To Tony Liggett for immediately recognizing this, the importance of it, and for taking action. He goes to Steve Mullen, they call in Dan Doolin, and they go in and they again review the Hoover Harvester video, and they see a car on it that matches the car that was registered to Richard Allen.

[Anya Kane]

Did we see Liggett's pictures of Allen's car? We did at cvs.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because then Tony Liggett then also, at some point, goes to CVS when Richard Allen is working there, and takes photos of Allen's car. And that is important for a number of reasons. One reason is he is able to, through his photographs, pinpoint a unique identifying feature from Allen's car.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. And those were the fact that the rims were such that they allowed light through. And in the who is your Harvester video, as they pointed out, you could very clearly see light coming through those rims, I guess is the word. And so, yeah, so that it fit. It Fit. And it matched in his original tip. Allan said, hey, guys, I'm there from 1:30 to 3:30.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the timestamp is Alan's car is going by at 127.

[Anya Kane]

So it's. Yeah, it's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And as you said before, it looks like his car.

[Anya Kane]

It looks like his car. It looks exactly like his car. Can you, can you identify it because you can't see the license plate. No, you can't because you can't see the license plate. But it looks exactly like his car.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It looks exactly like his car. And it does have that unique feature with the rims.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. And it's there when he said it. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So after all of this is done, on October 13, 2022, McLean reminds us that Richard Allen was interviewed by Steve Mullen and Tony Liggett. And during that interview, Richard Allen confirmed that he wore the same clothes as Bridge Guy on the day in question. He confirms he was on the day he was on the trail on the day in question. He confirms he was on the first platform of the bridge on the day in question. And he also confirms that he did not see anyone but the girls he ran into on the day in question. The one thing he changes is he now says he was actually there from 12:30 to 1:30. And McLeland, in his closing, also reminded us that Richard Allen became hostile as he was confronted with the evidence against him. And when shown the Bridge Guy picture, he made the odd comment, if that picture was taken by the girl's phone, it is not me.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Quote, as the interview goes on, he becomes more aggressive, more hostile. End quote. I'm just going to say this. I think I have a hard time Square. I thought Dr. Polly Westcott for was a good defense witness. She was organized. She had stuff to say. I think there were some oversights that I would have loved to know more about with her neuropsychology analysis, like, namely possibility of alcoholism and being involved. But I felt like generally. But one thing that I really had trouble squaring was what she. The picture she painted of Allan as this completely passive, submissive guy who relies on his wife to do everything for him, including pick him up when he inevitably fails at work with the guy on the video, especially the. The one with Steve Mullen and Tony Liggett, because that, that didn't really strike me as a match there. He, he got pretty frustrated and aggressive. He was, you know, he's been painted as this sort of internal sad sack, frankly, by the defense of, like, oh, I'm just, you Know nothing, you know, blah, blah, but no one likes me. He didn't seem that concerned about being liked by these investigators when he stormed out calling Steve Mullen an. So, I mean, like, I would have. I think that would have been something for the defense to square away a little bit of like, oh, well, he would act normal and that, but he was masking. But he really did have these problems. Like, that would have been something to square away because when they brought this one up again, I was just like, that does not fit with what we've been told this guy is like. And that's a problem, I think, for the defense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree. After this interview, as Nick McLean reminds us in his closing. Police searched Richard Allen's home. They find the car, which is we've indicated is this particular model with these particular rims that show light through it. They find knives. They find box cutters. They find a blue Carhartt jacket identical to the one that was worn by bridge guy. They find a hope box that has another bullet in it. They find a.40 caliber Sig Sauer gun. McLean said some people would call this almost a bridge guy starter kit, which I thought was an interesting turn of phrase. They also found a number of pictures of the Monon High Bridge, which clearly showed that it was a place that Richard Allen was familiar with and visited with his family.

[Anya Kane]

So one note about the kind of search, you know, like all this stuff from his house was when it came to his phones, interestingly enough, while he kept, you know, quite a few phones from his past, one that was missing was the one that he had in 2017 at the time of the murders. And they knew this because of Doolin's note about. I forget what it's called, but like the specific number of the phone. Not, not the phone number, but each device has a specific number that is unique to it. So that one is gone. They've never found that. Nobody knows where that is. And yeah, it's interesting. So there was some interesting information that we got about the Google searches that Richard Allen did. One was specified by McLeland on April 17, 2022, he was looking up the Delphi murder. Was that when he was looking up the Delphi murders as well?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

And then also then things like sound somewhat suicidal, like, quote, should I die now? Should I die? Like things like that again and again, I'm going to tell you this as somebody working in true crime. Well, first of all, I don't. It does not bother me at all that he was looking up the Delphi murders. I Imagine many people in Carroll county and beyond were doing that any given day.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I imagine that most people listening to this program, including you and me, have looked up that at some time.

[Anya Kane]

Second of all, should I die now? That's certainly concerning from a suicidal view. And I understand what McCleland is saying where it's like he's looking up the murders and then he's feeling so guilty about it. He's asking, should I die now? I get what he's doing there, but I just in general feel like my search history is probably so messed up. I'm, I'm sure I'm like on every watch list if, if there is such a thing, because I, I look up a lot of stuff about murders and it, it, you know, it, like all sorts of just weird stuff. So I feel like I don't find any of the stuff about Google searches all that compelling because I'm sure our listeners can relate. We wouldn't want our Google searches coming out. They'd probably be somewhat morbid and a bit weird, a bit off. You know, I remember even in college I'd be looking into like a weird period of history or some like, kind of morbid little thing. And it's. I just, to me that, I mean, I guess it goes toward the totality of everything else, but to me it's not super meaningful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'd argue that it goes to totality and it's another pebble on the scale.

[Anya Kane]

I. Yeah, but maybe while some other things are rocks, that is to me, a tiny pebble because I just. Any true crime fan would be, you know, would be under suspicion at that point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

McLean then talked about how Richard Allen's gun was sent to the Indiana State, Indiana State Police lab, where it was tested by Melissa oberg, who has 16 years of experience. And she found that the bullet at the crime scene had been cycled through Richard Allen's gun. And he indicated, of course, she had examined other guns and had not found this result with any of them. And he also reminded the jury that Oberg's results had been verified three times by her boss and she had never been wrong in her career. So at this point, they have Richard Allen on the trails and they have a bullet from his gun that ties him to the crime scene.

[Anya Kane]

Also, he made sure to point out that her, her boss was the former president of AFTI or aft, afte, or the association of Firearm and Tool Mark Examiners. This became a big deal during Dr. Eric Warren's testimony the other day where he's a board member of of AfD. So they were just basically being like, whatever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Richard Allen came in for another interview, as we know, on 1026, 22. And during that interview, he indicated he had never loaned out his gun or clothes or ammunition to anyone else. And so he therefore had no explanation for how a bullet from his gun could be. Could be found at this crime scene. And McLean said, well, the bullet came from his gun because he racked that gun to intimidate the girls because he wanted to use his power to force them to do what he wanted. And as McLean said that, there was real anger and passion in his voice.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, he. Definitely. And in addition to that, he talked about the video with. With Jerry Holman, specifically, a moment that caught our attention as well.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. This is from that interview that we're discussing.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. What was that moment he talked about when. When Alan was talking to his wife Kathy said, quote, you can you see how he tried to manipulate her? End quote. So with Kathy Allen kind of adopting almost the same tone and tenor that he had been using with Holman is. Is sort of, you know, repeating the same thing to her over and over and over and over again where he's saying, I know you. You know, that I couldn't do this. And, you know, like. Like this just. It was weird. I mean, honestly, I found it somewhat off putting myself. I think everyone, you know, you. Obviously, any marriage relies on trust. Right. But if there's some specific accusations being hurled and some concerns around that, I mean, I would certainly expect a heck of a lot more than that. No offense, Kevin, but if you hit me up with the. I know, you know, I know I couldn't, you know, that would actually be a huge red flag to me because it's like, why are you trying to tell me what I'm thinking instead of just telling me what the heck is going on right now? I'm also struck by the fact that I believe Kathy in that video said something to the effect of, you told me you weren't on the bridge. Why would she have that impression? And, like, I get it years later, you know, maybe. Maybe memories get changed or, you know, like, whatever. Like, I'm not saying that's the biggest deal in the world. I'm just saying that, like, if you told me you were specifically not doing something where then that came out that you had told other people otherwise, and then there's horrific, you know, accusations going around, I would certainly want a more detailed conversation. Maybe I'd want to have that outside of the police station. So it's not recorded. But I would certainly want something a little bit more robust than that. What do you think? Or would you just take me for it? For my. I know you know. I know you know I didn't do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely not.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll need sworn affidavits.

[Anya Kane]

Okay. Friggin lawyers. Do you. I mean, like, like, what is that? Like, I guess like my manipulator, like, like spidey sense went off when he was talking about that. Is that too hard on him? Is that. Could you imagine there being a good reason for someone behaving that way in that situation?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's hard to understand the dynamics of someone else's marriage. But it made me uncomfortable to watch.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it made me very uncomfortable. I feel like my takeaway of that video, the defense had sort of billed it as like Jerry Holman freaks out. And my takeaway from the video was like, yeah, there was a lot of yelling at the end, but I was kind of hung up on that a little bit because I didn't, I didn't expect it to be. There was something very.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, it was disturbing to watch that part.

[Anya Kane]

It was disturbing to watch that part. Like I just felt like, oh man. Like there's something very wrong with that whole interaction.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the conclusion of that interview, of course, Richard Allen was arrested shortly thereafter. He was moved to the Indiana Department of Corrections for his safety because Carroll County's sheriff, who was in to blasnby, did not feel that their facilities could keep Richard Allen safe. And it was important to keep Richard Allen safe, not only from others, but from himself. And so McClelland reminded the jury that Richard Allen was then moved to Westville where he started to confess. He reminded the jury that on April 2, 2023, he had a phone call with his mother, Janice, where Richard Allen indicated that he has found Jesus. On April 3, 2023, he had a phone call with his wife Kathy, where among other things, he said, I did it. You know, I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. And he played that recording?

[Anya Kane]

Yes, he did. They played a number of recordings this time around.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anything from that recording that you want to highlight other than I've said this.

[Anya Kane]

I've said this before, I can't get over for me personally, and this is just my own feeling, maybe eventually it gets published and you feel differently and that's okay. But when I hear him saying Ricky, he's. Because you have to like, this is a call from Ricky to me that is so similar to like the way Bridge guy sounds to me like that, like I'd heard. I'd be like, yeah, he has a similar voice. Like, I can see that. But when he says that, for some reason, that, for me was just like, wow, that almost. I. That almost, like, I just. I. I mean, did you. Did you hear that? Do you have a different view?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, I agree with you.

[Anya Kane]

Do you think that that sounded chillingly similar?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would say not just him saying Ricky, his voice on these calls is the voice of Bridge Guy.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I know. I mean, I agree. Well, yes, I agree, but I don't know. For some reason, that one always stood out to me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kathy Allen, after he tells her this, says, oh, they're just messing with your food or your medication. No, you didn't. You know you didn't. And she's crying. At one point, he says something about wanting to apologize to the families. And Cassie Allen, weeping, says, don't talk anymore.

[Anya Kane]

And she's like. He starts off strong in the sense, he's like, I did it. And then as she's crying and getting upset with him, he starts backing off and like, well, I think I did it. So I thought that was interesting in terms of the dynamic where he kind of starts off with like, here you go. And then it's like, well, you know, he kind of softens it a little bit as he goes on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

McLean then made the points that are important, that this. This confession was unprovoked, unpressured, and it was his own free will, and it was to his wife, Kathy. I did it. McLean reminded the jury that after this, Richard Allen continued to confess. He wrote a note to the warden indicating he wanted to confess and, quote, tell the families.

[Anya Kane]

Tell the family I am sorry. On April 5, 2023, he had a detailed confession to Dr. Monica Walla in which he said, I'm sorry, and, yeah, I killed them. I indicated that his. His intent was sexual, his motive was sexual. He wanted to rape them. Thought the girls were older, but thought they might be as young as 11. How he'd been a selfish coward all his life and that he killed them, quote, he took their lives, quote, in order to preserve his own, end quote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he was not suffering from any psychosis at this time. McLeland then began reading through lots and lots of other confessions and incriminating statements, many of which came from the door sheets, which were kept by the suicide companions. They include details like the fact that Allen said he killed the girls with a box cutter he stole from where he worked, which was cvs, and he subsequently left that box cutter in the CVS dumpster. And then on May 3, 2023, he had a longer confession to Dr. Walla. Can you tell us about that?

[Anya Kane]

In that confession to Dr. Walla, he talked about how he had some sort of breakfast with his family in the Mexico, Indiana area with his sister Jamie, mother Janice, and stepfather Marvin, I believe. And afterwards, instead of going to lunch as planned with his family, he bought a six pack of beer, drank three, and then drank the rest later, and then went to the bundled up, went to the trails where he laid in wait. He wanted to find a female to rape, and he ultimately followed the girls onto the bridge. He did something with his gun that he then believed led to the bullet falling out. At some point, he did not get to rape them because he was interrupted by a van. And so then he forced the girls across the creek, killed them, made sure they were dead, covered the bodies with tree branches, and then left the premises, avoiding trails in order to avoid detection, got into his car and went home, and then continued living his life afterwards.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On May 10, 2023, there was another call to Kathy Allen where he says, I need you to know that I did this. Also, there's a call to his mother at some point where he says, I'm just worried that you guys aren't going to love me because of the fact that I said that I did it. And his mother doesn't want to believe it. And he tells her, mom, I wouldn't sit here and tell you I didn't if I didn't do it.

[Anya Kane]

Tell you I did it. Right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I wouldn't sit here and tell you I did it if I did not do it. It struck me that both his mother and his wife consistently seemed to be in heavy denial about what Richard Allen was trying to tell them.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Also it seemed that they had been sort of. It strikes me as odd that both women would suddenly come up spontaneously with this idea that his medications were being messed with or his food was being messed with. You know, for one of them to maybe just kind of think of that on the spur of the moment, that makes sense. But it seems like they both were saying that. So I just would be curious what conversations were going on behind the scene. And frankly, who was telling them that? Because while certainly the defense has made much of Richard Allen being injected with Hal Dol, an antipsychotic, the defense has not presented any information that his food was being messed with or that he was being pumped with drugs in order to prompt this. They've not even really directly linked Hal dolls, what he was doing Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Kane]

So were the defense attorneys telling the Allens that this is what was causing this and that they, you know, therefore shouldn't take it that seriously? Like, where were they getting that? Or was that something that they discussed amongst themselves and decided that that must be the most likely thing? I don't know. It's odd and it's troubling.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It is troubling indeed. Nick McLean is now getting close to the end of his remarks and he mentions how Brian Harshman reviewed the notes and reports of the things that Richard Allen had said and were saying. And he notes the detail about Richard Allen being scared during the commission of the crime by seeing a van. He figures out by looking at a map where this, this van likely was on this one particular access road. And the only residence on that access road was Brad Weber. He looks into it. Brad Weber owned a van. And he learns that Brad Weber left work that day at 202 to make the 25 minute drive back to his home. And so he speaks with Brad Weber and confirms all of that. And so this detail about Brad Weber driving on this access road at exactly the time Richard Allen says he saw him, that this is a detail that only the killer would know.

[Anya Kane]

And I think one thing to distinguish here is like, I think in a previous episode, Kevin and I said we hadn't really heard about the van. And I know, I think some folks have reached out to us helpfully and said, oh, well, people were talking here screenshots about vans in regards to the Delphi case, and we appreciate them sending us that. And even the defense brought up some of that, like, did you know that there was a van that was trying to give candy to people, according to this Reddit post? So, like, that's all good data to have for me. What's more important is like, the fact that this van story aligns with what Brad Weber would have been doing that day. So, so it's not just like a van could be involved, like, or like a van gets mentioned. It's like Brad Webber's van would have been here at the same time Richard Allen says this is happening and then it, it fits with the timeline of the crime. Does that make sense?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Makes sense to me.

[Anya Kane]

So it's not just van equals guilt. It's, you know, what McClelland is saying is like Van plus the fact that it fits. It's like puzzle pieces fitting together.

[Kevin Greenlee]

McLean says, so now all the pieces are clear. He reviews the counts and then he shows again the pictures of Abby and Libby in the car on the way to the Monon High bridge. And he says, bridge guy stole the life away from Abby and Libby. And he says what happened is, in his view, bridge guy cut Liberty German's throat first. She struggled to stay alive. She cried because we know about the tear on her cheek. And then he cut Abby's throat and watched as Abby died slowly. For five years, said McLeland, he lived amongst us, and he didn't realize he had left behind the cartridge. And he asked the jury to enter in a guilty verdict on all counts. And that was the end of his first speech.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, absolutely. And then there was a break.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then there was a break. And then it was time for the defense. And their remarks were delivered by Brad. Rosie, I'll say at the outset, I thought there were some interesting points in his speech.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Ultimately, to be honest, it ended up at a point so ridiculous and so absurd, it almost seemed like something out of a Saturday Night Live skit.

[Anya Kane]

I agree. I'm going to say this. So I. I felt Baldwin's opening. You know, we've been told that he likes the opening statements, and I think he also had some good points in that, and I feel like not all of them have, frankly been really addressed at trial, which is a separate problem. But even when you don't consider that, like, it wasn't super stirring, I felt like he could have gone for the emotion more. You know, average suburban dad put through hell. Wrongfully conviction. Wrongful. Wrongfully accused. Like, we tug on the heartstrings a little bit. You know what I mean? Like. Like, why not? And. And instead, we kind of just got basically a grocery list of things that they had a problem with, and we got that from Rosie. I actually felt like he was doing a. Like, even though I felt it was pretty badly organized, I felt like at least parts of it were engaging, and I certainly was, like, interested. But, yeah, we went off a cliff. And so I. I feel like Baldwin's opener was stronger than this, even though I think I liked elements of this way better than Baldwin's opener. Does that make. I mean, the ending, guys, was just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We'll get to that. We'll get to that. So Rosie begins by talking about. I know we've been here almost a month. 17 days of testimony, 60 witnesses, two to 300 exhibits. There's an awful lot to talk about. He said he was going to try to narrow it down to four themes. Theme one was the broken timeline, or where he says it was a broken timeline. Theme two was Bungled ballistics. Theme three is false confessions. Theme four is digital forensics. But then he said, also, also, I guess there's kind of another theme, which is the theme of they don't want you to hear everything. And so we had to tell you things that they didn't want you to know. And the first instance he cited of this was he said that the prosecution refused to have height analysis done of the bridge guy. And I believe Holman testified that the reason they didn't do that was because they told it would. They were told that such an analysis would be very inaccurate, which also Rosie.

[Anya Kane]

Himself noted here by saying, well, yeah, it could be off by 2 to 4 inches. So there'd be a huge discrepancy. But, you know, they could have ruled some people out. Like, what, really tall or really short people?

[Kevin Greenlee]

He then mentioned that hours and hours of video interviews were lost.

[Anya Kane]

Wait, can I just pause for a sec? Can we. Can we talk about the hype? You know, this is the. This is their time. The defense, as any defense attorney will tell you, the defense gets one shot. The prosecution, in a way, has an advantage with closing arguments because they get a rebuttal at the end. They can leave the jury with their words ringing in their head. So Rosie and all defense attorneys really need to wow the jury because this is their last chance to talk to them. Do you start off with the height analysis thing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do not.

[Anya Kane]

No. I don't even mention that because that is just minutia. Like, tell. I mean. Yeah, anyways. Okay, go ahead. Sorry, I just wanted. I just wanted to say, like, that's not where I jump off on this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Things they don't want you to know. Another example of this was the story of Brad Heath, which he says may not be the biggest piece of evidence in the case, but maybe not something to bring up then, but it is worth knowing. And we told you Brad Heath was the gentleman who said that he saw a car parked, I think, not too far away from the CPS lot on the street, and it was there for a few hours. And it's interesting, he's conceding this wasn't a big piece of evidence, but we wanted you to hear about it.

[Anya Kane]

It's like, okay, like, he's doing this kind of like, you can't handle the truth bit. But it's also like. It's like all I could think of in those moments was like, yeah, but like, who cares? Like, he saw a car that day and it kind of fell apart as. As they put it on. And I Guess it's like, I feel like in this case there are some big hot button issues that the defense can really work with and do a good job around.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Height analysis. And Brad Heath don't seem to fit that description.

[Anya Kane]

And that's where we're starting. Why are we starting there?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then he talks about how the prosecution had a witness, Betsy Blair, and he said, well, the prosecution only asked the questions they wanted. We had to bring out other information in cross examination exam. And that's actually literally how the process is designed to work. Because obviously defense wouldn't be asking prosecution questions. The prosecution wouldn't be asking defense questions. So the part, the point of the adversarial system is that both people representing both interests are talking to the same witnesses to get all the information out before the jury. Then he brought up Sarah Caraw, and boy, do they not like Sarah Caraw. This is the muddy and bloody witness. And he said that. Well, I thought it was interesting. He said that Sarah Carber, of course, of course, saw a person who she said had mud and blood on him walking down the street shortly after the deaths of those two girls. And I was surprised he didn't name those two girls. Just saying those two girls sounded a bit dismissive to me.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. He said, what about Carbaugh, to your point? He said, quote, I've got to take a breath before I talk about her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he said, you know, just as a reminder to the jury, you may discount the testimony of a witness altogether. And he was plainly suggesting they should do that with the Sarah Carbaugh testimony, which they plainly don't like.

[Anya Kane]

I have a question. Why do you think they care so much about Sarah Carbaugh? Because, I mean, it's not like the sketches were in. I mean, like, her sketch looks a lot more like Richard Allen, in my view, than the younger guy sketch, which, again, like, they're sketches.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I'll jump ahead right now briefly and mention something which we can skip over later. Later on, he talks about Sarah Carbaugh's testimony, about how much blood this person had on him. And he said, well, if you believe that testimony, again, apparently he doesn't, then why wouldn't there be any blood in Richard Allen's car years later? So it's like that. That's a good argument.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, that is a good argument.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So why say don't believe Sarah Carbaugh when an aspect of her argument could be used to your advantage?

[Anya Kane]

Why not say, listen, Sarah Karbaugh came forward and saw this guy and it's not our Guy. And we know it's not our guy because, listen, guys, years later, even after you clean, you can still find blood in a car that would be good for them. But instead it's like, so she.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She could have been good for them.

[Anya Kane]

She's got. She got them so salty. It's like they just wanted to, like, fight her at the end. And it's like, you know, like, I get that she was a bit sassy on the stand to them, but I mean, I. I feel like ultimately. I feel like ultimately they. They seem at times like they're bridge guys. Lawyers. No, I mean, because they're like, oh, well, just because he saw this guy, he says bridge guy walking around covered in mud and blood doesn't mean anything. It's like, why. It's like, almost like sometimes it feels like they're conceding a lot with. With the. With the. With the ways they go. And I was. I'm so glad you mentioned that, because I was thinking, like, great argument. Focus on that. Focus on what they didn't find, instead of, like, trying to fight a witness who is not identifying your client. Unless you think your client is bridge guy. I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. But back to the theme of things they don't want you to know. The state did not bother to bring in Dave McCain. We had to do that. Didn't tell you about him because it doesn't fit their narrative. Dave McCain is an older gentleman who was at the Monon High Bridge shortly after the girls were abducted and murdered. And he didn't really. Since he came to the scene afterwards, he didn't really notice anything of relevance. And he also. Rosie mentioned Shelby Hicks and Cheyenne, who also were at the Monon High Bridge after the crime is said to have been committed. And I'm talking about the fact that the kidnapping occurred at 2:13 and both. All these people were there considerably after that.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, considerably. He also noted that he called out Steve Mullen for kind of saying. Testifying that Allen said he might have gone either way in terms of a route to the bridge that day. But he said Rick's version of the route wouldn't have taken him past the Hoosier Harvest store thing. I didn't find any of that particularly compelling because people can drive wherever they want. Like, it's not. It doesn't seem that deep to me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But, yeah, he says more stuff they didn't want you to see. He said the two interviews of the interrogation, it wasn't until Baldwin introduced them that you got to see them.

[Anya Kane]

I don't feel like those interrogations were as good for Allan as the defense seemed to think they are. I guess. I don't know. I mean, he's certainly very adamant that he didn't do it. I think that's good for Allan, saying, no, it wasn't me at all. There are weird moments, though, like the Kathy Allen exchange and frankly, him being kind of belligerent in the first one. Now you could say, hey, Anya, I'd be belligerent if someone was accusing me of something horrible and I didn't do it. And I agree with you, but I'm saying that doesn't fit what we've been told about Richard Allen by these defense experts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He talked about. He tried to suggest that Brad Webber's gun might. Or Brad Webber's gun could not be excluded. Is that what he said?

[Anya Kane]

Couldn't be excluded? And he kept on using the word ironically. Wrong, I think. Do you remember that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't.

[Anya Kane]

Let me. We might be getting to that. So. But yeah, that. That was in conjunction with Brad Webber. I will get to that when we get there. I'm not sure if that's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He showed a picture of Brad Webber's garage that was taken shortly after the murders. And there were sticks there. And there were also sticks on the bodies.

[Anya Kane]

There are also sticks in the forest. So probably sticks in the wood pile outside of our house. I mean, like, I thought it was kind of weird with Webber. I felt in the beginning they were really gunning for Webber. They were like, this guy, like, look at him. He's. He's the killer. And then. And then actually Baldwin, when he recalled Weber, went a lot easier on him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

So I was like, okay, they've kind of gone from kind of enemies to neutral and then back to enemies with Rosie here, where he's kind of making some of these statements.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He then said that Brad Webber told Officer Gotay that he. The he, Brad Weber did not go straight home that day. Rosie complained that Nick McLean did not play all the phone calls. Isn't it suspicious that he didn't play all. Isn't it suspicious that the FBI left the investigation midway through? That's the point that was not highlighted by the prosecution.

[Anya Kane]

Here's a. Here's a. Here's a. Here's a thought. Here's a thought. That point wasn't even highlighted by the friggin defense. Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because they made a big deal about it in the opening, didn't they?

[Anya Kane]

Baldwin made a big deal about. In the opening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And when you do almost nothing about.

[Anya Kane]

It in the trial Baldwin then got the chance to direct the question. Superintendent of the Indiana State Police, Doug Carter, who testified that it was his decision that the FBI leave the case. And he has this man up on the stand. He can ask him anything about this. He can. He can drag out every piece of drama about this and make the Indiana State Police look awful. And, oh, my gosh, they kicked out the feds, that they threw out the G Men. How could they? You know, the ghost of J. Edgar Hoover is weeping, and he did that was it. Whose decision was it to have them leave? Mine, thank you very much. That was it. Why would you make such a big deal of something and then go nowhere with it? I don't know. Maybe behind, like, in some sidebar. Maybe the prosecution tied their hands with this. I don't know. But, like, that was shocking to me because it just. It went nowhere. But then they're trying to, like. Like, they have, like, these two pieces of bread and they're trying to act like it's a sandwich.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Because it's like, yeah, we got the. You mentioned it as a big deal. And then at the beginning and the end, and then there's air between that. So I don't understand that because presumably there are instances where we could say isp, quote unquote, kicking out the FBI is a big mistake and they shouldn't have done that. Or you could say that made sense because it wasn't working out. Or you could say, if the FBI has been working it for a number of years, but they need to put resources elsewhere. People retire, people move. I mean, maybe they're not doing that much. And maybe it's like, well, we came into this because it was a, you know, child kidnapping murder, but we've kind of done all we can do for now. You have our number. If you need something, call us. Then that's also not a big deal. So I'm not saying I don't know what happened, but the reason we don't know what happened because the defense didn't ask those questions.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And should I note that they're not. He's not really talking about the events of February 13, 2017.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, we're doing. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And as I said at the beginning, when someone. When a lawyer in a trial and is closing is not focusing on the events that are the focus of said trial, there's usually a reason.

[Anya Kane]

Hey, what was Richard Allen doing that day? How did his family breakfast go where he abruptly left and decided to buy a six pack of beer? Are they saying that didn't happen? Do they have any evidence that that didn't happen, that he was actually just at home chilling? I mean, like, where was his phone that day? What happened to his phone from 2017?

[Kevin Greenlee]

He talked about the videos from Westville. Richard Allen was 13 months in an isolated cell. All they talk. All the prosecution wants to talk about is what he said. All they want you to do is look at words in a transcript. And then he starts talking about Melissa Oberg, who's the analyst who tied the bullet from the crime scene to Richard Allen's gun. He refers to that as the magic bullet and talks about the infamous photos. Because how would you describe those photos?

[Anya Kane]

I had a. I had trouble. I didn't really see them, but I. Like, what. What. Basically, my understanding is that the defense blew up the photographs that Oberg took with the microscope. And what we've heard from Oberg, and I guess to a certain extent from the defense's witness, Eric Warren, through his past interviews, is that you're not. It's not an appropriate thing to just judge some analysis from photographs alone, because what it is, essentially, is like you're taking a frame from a movie and you're not getting the full picture. You're taking a 2D image, and what the person under the microscope is actually seeing is 3D. And so it's. It's inappropriate to draw conclusions based on that alone. But the defense is saying, these don't look the same. Or this is, you know, like, basically drawn conclusions from photos alone, even though we were kind of told that that was not right what to do. Yeah, I thought, what do you make of them consistently calling this thing the magic bullet? As. As somebody who's been interested in a certain other crime case, they're just trying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To capitalize on a famous phrase and twist it to their own advantage.

[Anya Kane]

But it doesn't. It doesn't make any sense to me, because in the JFK assassination, the magic bullet refers to some people's incorrect belief that somehow the bullet was doing magical things like ricocheting and do, you know, making motions that did so in. In the sense of. Even if we disagree with that assertion, that phrase makes sense in the JFK assassination because the bolt would have to be magic in order to do what these people are saying it was doing. But in this situation, there's no. Like, it just seems like they're just. I don't know, like, they think it sounds cool. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Talked about the phone data and again, trying to make hay out of the recent finding where one of their Experts says that something her headphones were. The experts said the phone didn't move, but headphones were plugged in and taken out hours apart after the phone stopped moving. The prosecution indicates that that was just an error caused by the phone being wet or dirty. Or dirty.

[Anya Kane]

When. When dirt or moisture gets in headphone jacks. It sounds like then this thing can happen pretty readily.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He talked about the prosecution having desperation over the last few weeks. You talked about, oh, them trying to get information about the Brad Weber van. That shows desperation. The fact that the beginning of the trial, Andy Baldwin mentioned this hair found in Abby's hand and apparently that was only recently tested for DNA. That's an indication of desperation on his part. On the prosecution's part. He talks up, he talked about the Google searches that we referred to earlier. He said there's no proof that Richard Allen actually did those searches.

[Anya Kane]

See, what my move would be is that's not a big deal. People search weird stuff all the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, he did say that then too. He said, well, he followed up by saying there's no proof he did it. And by the way, someone in deli searching about the deli murders, who cares?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, he absolutely made a. That was exactly what he should have said on that. And he also know, like, he like looked up a movie like the Killing of the Sacred Deer. And you know, people look up movies. That's like, who cares? People might be into horror, people might be into different kinds of movies. People might have, you know, what, whatever going on in their personal lives that make them look up some weird stuff. And I, I don't, I shudder to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Think if people would see our Google search history.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, exactly. I'm sure we all would feel uncomfortable with that because we're probably looking up. Even if it's not like creepy weird, it's probably just kind of weird or off the wall. Like, why are you like, what? And I, I feel like I just, I don't really judge anything like that unless it's like when I look back at like the Keg and Klein case, he was looking up some really horrific, creepy, like, messed up sexualizing children stuff. That's not what I'm talking about. That's a red flag that should have been brought into that case. In this case, it just, it doesn't see, I'm not, you know, I, I just don't think it's that much of a bombshell here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You talked about Dr. Core who testified and according to Rosie suddenly decided that the murder weapon could be a box cutter. Rosie said, well, he made that determination and changed his mind. But he didn't file a supplemental report. So another clue is when an argument is not terribly convincing is when people engage not with the substance of it but rather with the process. So he's not really disputing the result. He's just saying well there should have been a supplemental report.

[Anya Kane]

I liked it when he said quote, he walked into his garage and tada, it might be a box cutter, end quote. But yeah, I, I agree.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Talked about Sarah Carbaugh again and said it would not be unreasonable to conclude that Sarah Carbaugh saw nothing, pay no.

[Anya Kane]

Attention to the woman in the car. I just. Why like why they really could have just like go with Carbaugh go with her sighting. He had blood all over his pants and they searched his car and nothing came of it. Are we saying that he like took his pants off before driving home? Is that realistic? Like they could have really done a lot with that. I felt and listen in my view, you know, I mean like I, I mentioned the, the murder of Jeff Gurman in Las Vegas. The reporter by Robert Tellis that was a situation where I believe they searched his car relatively shortly after the murders and they, I don't believe they found DNA in his car. They did find his DNA under the victim's fingernails. So there was DNA in the case but not where you'd think even though it was kind of a brutal crime. So I mean like I'm not of the, I'm not of the mindset that like everything has to you know, be like if you wrap yourself in a blanket maybe you kind of get, get off scot free. I don't know. But at the same time I think that would have been a great talking point for the defense and could have really done something for them. But it's like they wanted to fight Sarah Carbaugh so bad they didn't, didn't take that easy. Point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Kane]

Also I think like where like he started off with this kind of nice bullet point, like four bullet points of where we were going and I felt like this meandered a lot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It meandered a lot. He then returned to the topic of Dave McCain, an older gentleman who was at the moan on High Bridge that day. He was on the trails that day. He said that Dave McCain arrived at the trail sometime between 2 and 3 and he did not hear any sounds of people crying out because they were being murdered. I would stress between 2 and 3. Keep in mind the, according to the state's timeline and the phone not moving that would seem to suggest the crime was over by 2:32. So it's entirely possible by the time he was at the high bridge it was all over.

[Anya Kane]

Also, I think what Rosie said here was really being very generous. He talked about him being there between two and three, Shelby Hicks getting there around 2:30. It seemed to me like when they were actually cross examined it things started looking later and later.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, yes, that's very fair.

[Anya Kane]

So I don't, I don't take the 2pm or the 2:30 that seriously there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To be frank, he claimed that the state has ignored the theme of multiple people possibly being involved. But then in his next breath he said, oh, by the way, batoblazenby said he once believed there was more than one person involved. So the state had ignored it and considered it.

[Anya Kane]

He said that somebody could have accessed the bridge through Teresa Liebert's property. I think was that it or like that she saw a strange van that day that should have been investigated more, but she also saw a person that, she didn't seem to remember what he looked like at all. And that went nowhere. And it was a person at the mailbox hours beforehand. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said very little, there was no DNA. And then he started talking about Richard Allen. What do we know about Richard Allen's actions in February? Well, we know he picked up the phone and called police and told them he was there.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, but what did he do that day? What did he do the day before? What did he do the day after? Like, was he okay at that point? Was he just living his life? Was he having some sort of crisis? I mean, like, give us something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then he says, In 2022, Richard Allen cooperated with police, even knowing he was a suspect, he returned to the station to have another interview where he asserted his innocence. Even after Rosie says that Richard Allen's wife was leveraged. But Richard Allen still maintained his innocence.

[Anya Kane]

I mean, he cooperated, except he didn't let them search his house or his phone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Richard Allen kept working at CVS after the murders. He talked about again, the magic bullet and how Warren, their expert, had some qualms with the analysis. Of course, Warren did not actually analyze the bullet himself. He, as I believe Rosie, acknowledged that, didn't he?

[Anya Kane]

He did. He said, you know, he didn't, basically he didn't do it because he, he didn't need to do it. And then I think he was. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that was basically it. They talked about the false confessions or what he said were false confessions. He said that Richard Allen was. Was forced. Was t. Richard Allen was tossed into a secure cell and then treated like the rest of the prisoners.

[Anya Kane]

We used to used a. Anya esque pun at one point with a ballistics. Can I just say that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, yeah, do that.

[Anya Kane]

He said the science is under fire of regarding ballistics, but that's not really what they got into, I mean, with war. I mean, they mentioned in fairness. In fairness, actually, they did mention with Warren there's like a critical community that. That is sort of critical of ballistics. So they did get into that. But I think what. What he. They were saying with Warren was Oberg may have gotten it wrong and her report wasn't any good. So. Yeah, but you know, the pun. The pun still stands.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The alleged false confessions. He said Rich Allen was tossed into a secure cell in the tree like the rest, but the rest were convicted. And Richard Allen wasn't convicted. He talked about how Richard Allen was on suicide watch. He talked about the conditions in the cell. It was like a steel toilet, concrete floors. When Richard Allen goes to therapy, he was shackled and traveled with a leash. He said solitary confinement is a form of torture that will eventually make anyone break. And Richard Allen was in solitary for 15 months.

[Anya Kane]

I thought it was 13.

[Kevin Greenlee]

13 months. He said Trooper Harshman was a good cop, but he pointed out that Trooper Harshman wasn't too disturbed about Richard Allen's treatment because he says Trooper Harshman said that Richard Allen was right where he belonged.

[Anya Kane]

He talked about the Dr. Walla. He talked about the videos showing Alan struggling and who could see those videos and not say he was psychotic? Who could, quote, who could possibly watch that video and then, you know, say that he was oriented to a time and place. He said that in prison, the. The goal was to, quote, keep him alive. That was it. And not, not, not better his mental health, but just literally keep him alive as a safekeeper. He talked about delirium and false memories. He noted that, you know, he felt the. The I did it stuff was a false belief that Richard Allen had. He said that Libby's. Again, we're kind of jumping around, but that's how this went. He said that Liberty's phone was the iPhone. You know, quote, does that thing have a story to tell? He said that the three most important timestamps are the. I guess. Oh, this is what he said about the phone. Quote, the phone has no personality. It has no feeling, no emotions, no opinions, end quote. And he talks about the timestamps being important, namely 4:34, when I guess they said it Turned back on as well as 5:45pm and 10:32pm When. When the headphone jack thing was going on. Right, right. And then he attacked the idea that there was a 20 foot. This was something that McClellan mentioned that I don't know if we mentioned, but there was a shift in elevation on the. On Libby's phone, according to the health data, which McLean claimed was the girls being abducted forced down the hill. You know, they're kind of near that access road. So he's saying that that's what happened there. But Rosie contended the 20 foot shift in elevation didn't make sense because the bridge as a whole was 65ft and the numbers didn't add up. Although I imagine if. I don't know, I mean, I don't know without like kind of seeing that with a. I don't know how to analyze that. And then. Okay, this is where he starts using ironically. Okay, was this right? Am I just being ignorant myself or. He kept on talking about like the location on, you know, not ironically, the road, the access road led to Brad Weber's house. And I think he mentioned like there were sticks and stuff. I just, I don't know if he was using ironically correctly there. And it just kind of threw me off.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, he was talking about there. There were sticks in Brad Weber's garage. And then he jumped back to Dr. Kor, said Dr. Kor's testimony is hard to swallow again. Then he jumped over. There was no trace evidence.

[Anya Kane]

He said, quote, it seems like a retrofitting, quote. The state had seven years to figure out 545 and 1032. There's no explanation because the. The phone is right, end quote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You said Dr. Wallace behavior. He called it bizarre that she was infatuated with this case before she treated Richard Allen. He mentioned that in Richard Allen's confession to Dr. Waller. Richard Allen claimed that he lay in wait. And he said, what is this video bridge guy looked like he lay in wait because he was just following her on the bridge.

[Anya Kane]

I don't understand that argument.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is he conceding that Richard Allen is bridge guy?

[Anya Kane]

He was just power walking past them and didn't notice the thing, Even though there's some disembodied voice saying, guys down the hill. I guess he would have had to walk past that other guy too. The whole thing doesn't make any sense. Here's. Here's it. Here's it. We don't see the beginning of their walk down the bridge. So I don't know where he gets off saying, no one could have laid in wait. All we see is, is the end. I mean, if it showed the whole walk. And, you know, this guy's been like, like, I just, like, it's. It's not logical.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, things get worse. So he says there was. He claims there was no sound of a cycling gun in the video. He said, oh, they want you to think that Richard Allen was an alcoholic.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, this was kind of odd because I, I'm interested in this. And, and, yeah, they said he, you know, in with. To Dr. Martin, he said he drank beers socially. Guess what? This may blow everybody's mind, but sometimes people with drinking problems understate their problem. And if he was telling people in any context that he was an alcoholic twice and that Kathy helped him through both instances, then, you know, he might. He might have a problem. I'm not saying he does, but I don't know why they're suddenly getting all into the I. Maybe they feel like there's such a stigma with alcoholics that, like, people might view that against him, so they kind of want to clear that up. But, no, no, no. It's just a social drinker didn't have a problem.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You talked about how the witnesses said the bridge guy was walking with purpose, which suggests he had a plan. Perhaps he knew the girls were there. But Rosie stressed that there is no digital evidence linking Richard Allen to the girls.

[Anya Kane]

And weirdly enough, his phone from 2017 is missing. I'm not saying that I would. I would imagine that it would show on Libby's phone if there was some kind of link. So I'm not saying anything there. But when they keep stressing the lack of phone evidence, all I keep thinking of is, where the heck is that phone?

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said, here's a revelation for you. There's a blue Carhartt jacket in a. In. In every closet in Carol county or in a lot of closets in Carol County.

[Anya Kane]

I think to a certain extent that that is a fair statement. It is a very popular look, and it's not something that I would expect somebody to be, like, identified by. I think the problem for Allan is that he says that's what he was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wearing that day along with everything else. If a person were just to say, oh, I wore a blue Carhartt jacket that day, that would not be enough for an arrest warrant. But maybe with a bunch of other things, it's another pebble on the scale.

[Anya Kane]

Is now a good time to ask you what does totality mean and why is that important in this case?

[Kevin Greenlee]

What. What do you mean?

[Anya Kane]

Well, like the totality. For me, this is a case where there is no necessarily single, completely slam dunk piece of evidence that it's like, whoa. But to me, the totality of all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Of this is devastating.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. The we're, we're talking about, essentially what is the piling up of different facts to me is devastating. And it was, it was made more devastating, I think for me today when I heard it all at once, as opposed to kind of drip, drip, drip, drip, it felt like more like a landslide and I, I guess, yeah, I mean, totality of circumstances here, if someone's just wearing it, says they have a blue jacket and they probably wore it that day, who cares if someone drives a Ford Focus type vehicle? Who cares if somebody I know, I don't know, like, like to go to the trails with their family? None of that matters alone. That does not matter. But all of it together, saying that you walked the path of bridge Guy wearing the clothes of bridge Guy. You sound exactly like bridge Guy. Your lawyers seem to be very intent on defending bridge Guy. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

See, one of many things I love about you is you'll ask me a question and then answer it yourself so I can just sit back and relax.

[Anya Kane]

Well, you seem like your throat was getting a bit dry, so I figured I'd just step in and help you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I love it. I love taking it easy and not talking.

[Anya Kane]

You came to the right place then. Because I never shut up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, no, no. As far as I'm concerned, you don't talk enough.

[Anya Kane]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So Rosie talked about how the prosecution said that Richard Allen found God and that that is why Richard Allen came clean and started confessing. And then Rosie said, well, in a cell, in circumstances, what else would you expect to find? Can you blame Richard Allen for finding God? And I found that fascinating because he's responding to an argument that as far as I could tell, no one was making. I don't believe, I don't believe Nick McLean ever stood up and said, isn't it awful that this guy likes God?

[Anya Kane]

What is this, like the next God's Not Dead movie? I mean, yeah, I don't think anything, anyone was criticizing him for becoming a Christian. I, I don't remember anyone making that argument.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that was interesting. You talked about how Trooper Harshman indicated that he'd listened to hundreds of hours of Allen's phone calls and stuff, and he, that Cooper Harshman felt that the voice of Bridge Guy was the voice of Richard Allen. And Rosie said, well, you know, lots of people Tipped in voices that they thought were the voices of bridge guy. And then Rosie said, let's take a 10,000 foot view. He said, no one positively id'd Richard Allen as the man on the bridge.

[Anya Kane]

That's a fair point and one that I feel maybe should have been emphasized more.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And earlier he said, no one piece of digital data connected Richard Allen. No DNA connected Richard Allen. No speck of trace material connected Richard Allen.

[Anya Kane]

That was the laundry list that I felt should have been the centerpiece of his entire argument.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is when he made the comment we discussed earlier, where he said, well, if you believe Sarah Carball, there was so much blood on him that there should be DNA still in the car.

[Anya Kane]

But, you know, she pissed us off during a deposition, so let's just bash her instead of actually making this point more prominent. I mean, that's what it felt like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then he says, oh, the magic bullet is no more than a tragic bullet.

[Anya Kane]

That was the dumbest thing. I mean. No, no, no, it wasn't. But at that point, I did roll my eyes because that's just. Come on, what are we doing here? I mean, I can deal with the pun under fire. That's fine. I'm, I'm there with you, but I'm. No, not, not, not a tragic bullet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is just so. I, I think this is where things started to take.

[Anya Kane]

I can't believe they did this. I just, it was, this was the tragic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Whatever the hell he said. Let's say that you think these confessions are a smoking gun. And then on the screen, he shows a picture of a medieval torture rack. And then there's an illustration of it being used. And then there was an illustration of a thumb screw and then an illustration of the thumb screw being used. And he says, you know, as a society, we've evolved such things. We've evolved beyond such things. And, you know, but throwing someone into a cell by themselves, that's slow torture. Someone should have said something. And they start showing pictures of Richard Allen in the cell. And then I think at this point they show an image of a person who is completely covered by a huge snake, perhaps a python that is wrapped around him. And Rosie says that that is the power of the state. And he says, now it is not time to step back to these old ways of torture. No man or woman should be treated like this. And if you render a verdict of guilt, it would be endorsing this sort of thing. And of course, that's not true, because if you render a verdict of guilt in this case, all you would be doing is saying that you think Richard Allen is guilty of the crime of which he was charged. There was no verdict form on what you think about whether or not the rack or the thumbscrew should be brought back. I. I felt this ending was so over the top and absurd. It sounded like something a character on Saturday Night Live, an exaggerated defense attorney character, would do. I thought it just seemed dumb. It just seemed dumb, and it seemed embarrassing.

[Anya Kane]

I, like, face palmed. Like, I, like, I just couldn't. I. I mean, I, like. I was like. I just kind of went like, oh, jeez. Like, okay. The.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, God.

[Anya Kane]

And also the. The thumb screw picture was so ridiculous. It was like a bearded man screaming. Do you remember that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I did.

[Anya Kane]

That was up on the screen forever. It felt like. It felt like middle school PowerPoint essay. Something where somebody thinks they're making a big point with a capital P. And. And frankly, as somebody, I literally. Okay, one of my.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here we go.

[Anya Kane]

One of my interests in college, not so much anymore, so don't ask me about it. But I was very interested in the Jesuit mission to England during the Tudor era. Sort of, if you want to speak generally, you know, I'm talking about, like, Robert Southwell, Henry Garnet, the Gunpowder Plot, et cetera. So you can imagine that the rack was something that I would encounter a lot in reading about that. So I know a little bit about it. I mean, like, I know who Richard Topcliffe is. He was, like, the Queen's torturer in that. I mean, he had a rack, but he was. People often, you know, there was the rack, but then you could also like, hang someone up by their arms. Like, there were all these different things that they would do to people to get them to break. And, you know, certainly these kind of torture devices are horrific, right? But I feel like when you're breaking out the medieval torture devices in this context, and then you're hearing about how Richard Allen was, like, calling his. Like, the people who were being racked weren't getting, you know, tablets to call, you know, the Vatican and complain about their conditions or whatever. I mean, they were, you know, like, it's possible to put out such an extreme example that you almost make the actual hardships that your client underwent look very pale in comparison. So if I. If I have a dangerous kayaking accident where I tip over and my kayak sinks and I need to be rescued, and then I start going on about how it was just like the Titanic, you know, Like, I. Maybe people might be like, okay, well, people. People died during that you know, just, just because you can do an extreme and dramatic historical example does not make it an apt one, frankly, and does not make it something that you should do. Because again, all I could think of is, oh, my God. And then throwing in, oh, my God. Okay, so, so, yeah, so I'm, I'm, you know, that was my focus in college and I was interested in it. So I'm hung up on that. And then suddenly they hit me with a big picture of a snake. And I'm just like, what? And then they're like, the snake is the government. And like, what?

[Kevin Greenlee]

The snake is the power of the government. And if you vote guilty, you're saying, this is great, and you're endorsing the government. I guess smothering people makes no sense. It makes no sense.

[Anya Kane]

And that's not an argument of strength when you're defense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not an argument of strength. It's not an argument of logic. It's not an argument of intelligence. It's not an argument of confidence. Here's the thing. If you want to have a conversation about how we do or should treat prisoners who are difficult to keep safe because of the nature of the crimes of which they are charged, if you want to have a conversation about how we should treat prisoners who are behaving in extreme ways, which Richard Allen clearly was, we can have that conversation.

[Anya Kane]

It's a good conversation to have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And maybe we should put more resources in there. That's. Maybe this trial can start those conversations.

[Anya Kane]

I think that's great.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know. But that's not what this trial is about. This trial is ultimately about what happened on February 13, 2017. And this is a clumsy and perhaps offensive attempt to change the subject. And by trying to make it into, oh, you need to render a not guilty verdict, or otherwise you are endorsing insane government overreach just is dumb.

[Anya Kane]

Can you imagine being in the courtroom, the families of the victims who loved these girls, and you hear the closing argument of the person that has been accused of killing them is, vote innocent or big snake wins. Like, that is just the stupidest thing. And it's not a position of strength because what they're basically, what he basically said is, like, even if you're guilty, can't let the big snake win. Big snake is evil. It sounded like I, I think sovereign citizen came to mind. Like just anti government nonsense came to mind. I mean, we all know the government's absolutely capable of making horrible decisions and mistakes. And frankly, I myself am troubled by some of the Prison conditions discussed. But ultimately that doesn't really change the facts of what happened on February 13, 2017.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that's what this trial is about.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, I'm all for having a conversation about what, what, what changes could be made to prison, pretrial detention, what, how do we figure this out? How do we work this? Fine, great, let's, let's do that. But it's, it seems like Rosie basically wanted to ramble about everything other than what happened that day to those girls and where his client was at the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If I come home with a dent on my car and Anya says, oh, why do you have a dent on the car? And I want to start talking about dinner or other things or trying to change the subject, it's obviously there's a reason I don't want to talk about that.

[Anya Kane]

Something really bad happened and it's like I, like I just came away from this whole thing was like, wow, his client is bridge guy. I'm not even talking about Richard Allen. I'm just like, he's talking about this case like his client is definitely bridge guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's talk about Nick McLean's rebuttal.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, big snake strikes back. Geez.

[Kevin Greenlee]

McLean said, this has been along four weeks. We're now handing the case over to you. You're in the driver's seat. It's not, we're not here to tell you how to feel. You're in the driver's seat. And of course he's talking about the jury. He talked about how in the mini opening and the main opening statements, the defense said a lot of things about what the evidence would allegedly show. McLean says they haven't backed it up. And we have. There are witnesses on the trail who saw a man, all identified him is bridge guy.

[Anya Kane]

He said, quote, which is really just reaffirming what Richard Allen himself said, end quote. And he's there, he's on the bridge. And he said at 22:13pm you know, having witnesses come in who were there more in the 3pm hour is a completely irrelevant thing. That doesn't, that doesn't inform anyone's understanding of the case because it occurred after the abduction and very likely after the murders.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And about the crime scene, he said that they seem to indicate that since they didn't, maybe they didn't scream, it didn't happen. He said Richard Allen had a gun, it was pointed at the girls, Maybe they didn't scream, who knows? But Liberty German cried. He said, I don't understand how they call it a magic bullet. Melissa Oberg testified that this bullet was in Richard Allen's gun, a gun he never loaned to anyone. And she explained that the pictures were not the way to evaluate whether or not that was the case.

[Anya Kane]

I want to go back to the tear for a second. If you find, he said, quote, the bloody outline of a tear on her face. Scared, fearful. All because of Richard Allen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

So again, he's kind of combining the facts with the emotion of it, I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Melissa Oberg said the bullet was in Richard Allen's gun that he never loaned anyone. She explained that the pictures were not the way to evaluate that. He said the defense had an expert who could have tested the bullet, but he did not. The defense said, words matter, but why don't Richard Allen's words mattered? He offered a detailed confession to Dr. Wall Walla.

[Anya Kane]

Quote, he said a lot of words to a lot of different people. So Dr. Walla, his mom, his wife, the warden, Dr. Martin, almost anyone who would listen. He was trying to make statements to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

McLean said that in these confessions, Richard Allen gave a logical and organized US account of what happened, including details only the killer would know. He said Richard Allen is bridge guy, and Richard Allen killed Abby and Libby. He said the two victims in this case are Abby and Libby. But they are more than victims. He said they were also heroes. Liberty German made the video. Abby Williams died. Abby Williams died hiding the phone. And he said both of them worked to camouflage the bullet. And it is that evidence that was so crucial. He said that Becky Patty once said that Liberty German told her that someday she would grow up and help police solve crimes. And Nick McLean said that is exactly what she did. And she brought Abby Williams along to help her do that. It was a very emotional closing statement.

[Anya Kane]

I heard the. At least one of the victim's mothers crying at this point. And it was. It was powerful. It was really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Awful.

[Anya Kane]

Just the whole thing is awful. The fact that it's become a circus for these poor people, the whole thing is awful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The whole thing is awful.

[Anya Kane]

It makes me sick. And I thought he did a good job. I don't think Brad Rosie did a good job. If I were the Allen family, and I felt at this point that my husband or father or brother or whatever was innocent, I would be very disappointed in the performance of this defense team. I'm sorry. I'm just going to be honest, like, that's. This was not. This was not anything. It was just a laundry list. It was. It was a. It was a laundry list of grievances with some very good points mixed in with a bunch of nonsense. I don't know why they don't just extrapolate on the points that are logical and coherent.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We should wrap up here. Did you want to take just a quick moment to talk about reasonable doubt versus no doubt?

[Anya Kane]

So this was in the jury instructions. They talked about, you know, you do not have to. To convict someone. You do not have to get beyond every possible doubt. So what does that mean? So it means this. If Kevin says. If Kevin is charging me with stealing cereal, doing a heist, and someone who looks exactly like me is on the video, something that looks like my car is on the video, and maybe they find a strand of my hair at the crime scene, you know, and that all points to me doing it. And my argument is, well, one of my sisters is out to get me, and they did it, and they heisted my hair and left it at the scene. And it's all a big frame job. And then there's no evidence for that. I don't. That's. I've given a possibility that is technically.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we might have doubts about Anya's story, but are there reasonable doubts?

[Anya Kane]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's say I told Anya that last night Harrison Ford came over and I had a great conversation with him about Raiders of the Lost Ark. Anya might say, well, Kevin, I was here with you, and that didn't happen. I could say, well, Anya, it happened after you were asleep. I didn't want to wake you. She said, kevin, I. I looked online. Harrison Ford is in California filming a movie. I could say, anya, are you really so naive to think that Harrison Ford wants people to know exactly where he is? He's a celebrity. There are security concerns. So at this point, there are some.

[Anya Kane]

You could feasibly say that, yeah, maybe they planted a story, and maybe I just didn't hear anything, even though I'm a very light sleeper. And maybe it's all true, because I can't really prove that it's not true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you can't prove beyond all doubt that I did not have a conversation with Harrison Ford last night. But are those doubts reasonable?

[Anya Kane]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's basically what it means.

[Anya Kane]

Basically. Use your frigging common sense and don't be just making weird stuff up. So, obviously, pretty much like most of social media on this case, would you never want these people on a jury because it's in social media world. It's like whatever random thing I can throw together could be a feasible scenario. I'm going to cling to it until I die. Whereas in the real world, it's, that's not really what you want on a jury.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So now the jury is deliberating the case. Who knows how long it's going to take? But what I will tell you is this. We are not going to come and do a show and bother you tomorrow with two hours of blather unless there's actually something to talk about. So if there's no verdict tomorrow, I don't think we're going to do a show unless something crazy happens.

[Anya Kane]

I concur. I'll say the judge thanked both councils for, you know, thank council for your excellent final arguments. I thought that was a fair thing to say to one party, not the other, not the rack and snake. But I'm, Yeah, we're not going to, we're not going to do anything until this actually. What, you know, and who knows? I mean, there's three options at this point. He's acquitted, there is a hung jury resulting in a mistrial or he is convicted. Those are the three options. So we don't know. There's a lot of, you know, oh, if it's quick, then it means the conviction. If it's, I don't know, we don't know how it's going to go. We've all been watching these jurors trying to read their minds. No one can read their minds.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No one can read them.

[Anya Kane]

There are 12 people who are going to make decisions and so probably the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Next time we talk, you, you'll already know what the verdict is.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Or if there's even going to be a verdict or if it's going to hang. But I think that's kind of what.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thank you so much for listening.

[Anya Kane]

We have to do, we have to do analysis. So we're not just going to kind of ramble, as Kevin said. But anyways, yeah, thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I guess I was speaking in a charmingly self deprecating way.

[Anya Kane]

Well, I just, you know, I just what? It's been such a long process and I just, you know. Well, it's kind of, it's interesting. It's kind of, in a way, it's over. It's up to the jury now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

So we'll just wait with all of you and hopefully be able to talk about something at some point. I guess I presume that will happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

But we appreciate you kind of sticking with us. This has been a difficult and challenging reporting process, but we've met a lot of very kind people along and your.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Support means a great deal to us.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely. All right, well, is that all we have to say, Kevin. All right, thanks. Bye.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Kane]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at wwpatreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintgar.

[Anya Kane]

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings Handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy. Well, being like he does it all, this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space, just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy. Yes, he's been a really good friend to us. And so it's, it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I think, I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason. If you listen consistently to our show, he's been on our show a couple times. We've been on his show. He's a terrific guest. I, I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this. That really resonated. Like, I do quote him in, in conversation sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different, complicated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She quotes them to me all the time.

[Anya Kane]

I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so Right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think. And you like us, you, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can, can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's, it's compassionate, it's affirming. But I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you'll all really enjoy it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

And he's got a great community that he's building. So we're really excited to be a part of that. We're really, we're fans of the show. We love it and we would strongly encourage you all just check it out, download some episodes, listen. I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Podcasts, Wherever you listen to podcasts. Very easy to find.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely.