The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Fourteen: The Superintendent and the Camcorder Tapes

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Fourteen: The Superintendent and the Camcorder Tapes

Release Date: November 2, 2024
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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Overview

In Day Fourteen of the Richard Allen trial for the brutal Delphi murders, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the contentious decision by Judge Francis Gull to restrict the viewing of camcorder tapes featuring Allen in prison. This episode explores the implications of this ruling on public perception, the integrity of the trial, and the broader issues of transparency within the criminal justice system.

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Key Discussions

1. Introduction to the Day’s Proceedings (00:00 – 05:19)

• Content Warning: Hosts begin by alerting listeners to the sensitive nature of the episode, discussing the brutal murders and themes of mental health and suicide.

• Episode Format: Áine and Kevin announce a shorter episode focused on summarizing the day's events and the trial's progress.

2. Housekeeping and Acknowledgments (05:02 – 06:19)

• Gratitude: The hosts express thanks to Ali Dylan for providing essential support during court sessions, highlighting the challenges of attending proceedings in harsh weather conditions.

• Personal Notes: Light-hearted exchanges about their note-taking habits underscore the meticulous nature of their reporting.

3. Controversy Over Camcorder Tapes (06:19 – 25:31)

• Defense's Attempt to Introduce Prison Videos: The defense sought to introduce camcorder footage of Richard Allen in prison to provide context for his mental state. These videos were to be shown silently to the jury but withheld from the gallery.

  • Kevin’s Critique: Kevin criticizes the judge's decision, arguing it creates a double standard by protecting the defendant's dignity while displaying graphic images of the victims to the public. He states, “If the jurors’ decisions might be based on something that's being withheld from the public, I find that to be an outrageous situation” (09:10).

  • Public Outrage: The hosts report significant backlash from the public and gallery attendees, who feel the judge is unfairly favoring Allen by withholding potentially exculpatory evidence.

• Judge Gull’s Rationale: The decision was purportedly made out of respect for Allen’s dignity, but Kevin and Áine question the consistency and fairness of this approach, especially in light of previous rulings allowing graphic evidence of the victims.

• Potential Impact on Jury: The hosts express concern that the jury’s perception of Allen could be unduly influenced by the restricted videos, potentially swaying the verdict without public scrutiny.

4. Superintendent Doug Carter’s Testimony (25:31 – 43:17)

• Anticipated Witness: The defense called Superintendent Doug Carter, a prominent figure in the investigation, seemingly to shed light on inter-agency dynamics, particularly between the Indiana State Police (ISP) and the FBI.

  • Kevin’s Analysis: He underscores the irrelevance of inter-agency disputes to Allen’s guilt, stating, “Whatever happened between these two agencies is ultimately irrelevant unless you can establish that the FBI would have done something that the Indian State Police did not do” (35:40).

  • Áine’s Observations: She points out the defense’s strategy seems aimed at sowing doubt without directly addressing the core evidence, remarking, “We've heard a bunch of irrelevant stuff” (25:27).

• Brief Testimony: Superintendent Carter's testimony was succinct, lasting approximately ten minutes without providing substantial new information, leading the hosts to view it as a strategic misstep by the defense.

5. Jury Behavior and Courtroom Dynamics (19:24 – 30:25)

• Observations on Jurors: Áine and Kevin discuss their limited visibility into the jury's reactions, noting signs of discomfort and confusion among jurors as they process the restricted videos.

  • Áine’s Insights: She recounts attempts to gauge juror emotions, receiving mixed feedback from observers about jurors appearing bored or upset but ultimately finding it difficult to draw definitive conclusions.

• Defense Attorneys’ Conduct: The hosts critique the defense team’s approach, suggesting a lack of preparedness and relevance in their witness selections and questioning strategies.

6. Speculation on Defense Strategy and Future Proceedings (43:02 – 51:10)

• Defense Team's Challenges: Áine and Kevin express skepticism about the defense’s effectiveness, noting missed opportunities to present meaningful evidence and questioning the strategic value of their witness testimonies.

• Potential Future Evidence: The hosts anticipate the introduction of additional videos, including possible cell footage, which may further complicate the trial dynamics.

• Prosecutorial Confidence: Confidence in the prosecution’s preparedness is evident, with both hosts suggesting that the defense has yet to present compelling arguments to undermine the state’s case against Allen.

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Notable Quotes

• Kevin Greenlee on Public Access and Fairness:
  “If the jurors’ decisions might be based on something that's being withheld from the public, I find that to be an outrageous situation.” [09:10]

• Áine Kane on Defense Strategy:
  “All we've heard is a bunch of irrelevant stuff.” [25:27]

• Kevin Greenlee on Judge Gull’s Record:
  “Judge Gold does not have the best track record on public access issues.” [14:35]

• Áine Kane on Witness Relevance:
  “Everybody so far they've called has been, you know, the fire chief searching around in the darkness, not going seemingly anywhere near the crime scene. And even if somehow they had, it's very dark out...” [35:42]

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Concluding Thoughts

Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide a critical examination of the ongoing trial, highlighting concerns over judicial decisions that may impact the fairness and transparency of the proceedings. Their analysis suggests that the defense’s strategies have thus far failed to cast significant doubt on the prosecution’s case, maintaining the narrative that Richard Allen's guilt remains substantiated. The episode underscores the importance of open access to evidence in ensuring justice and maintaining public trust in the legal system.

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Additional Resources

• Support the Murder Sheet:
  Join their Patreon or Buy Me a Coffee to support their investigative efforts.

• Connect with the Hosts:
  Join the Murder Sheet Facebook Discussion Group to engage with other listeners and discuss cases.

• Listen to Jason Blair’s Silver Linings Handbook:
  Recommended by Áine and Kevin for its compassionate and empathetic storytelling, available on all major podcast platforms.

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This summary was crafted to provide an insightful overview of the Murder Sheet podcast episode, capturing the essence of the hosts' discussions and the critical issues surrounding Richard Allen's trial.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Wi fi that reaches the attic.

[Anya Kane]

I finally have a home office.

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[Anya Kane]

Content Warning Today's episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls as well as issues around mental health and suicide.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we have some good news for you all. You're going to get hear a lot less from us today. Going to be a much shorter episode than usual as we recap the day's events and the trial of Richard Allen for the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams in Delphi. And there's A reason for why it's going to be shorter. And we will tell you that reason and tell you everything else that happened today in just a moment.

[Anya Kane]

My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Delphi murders. Richard Allen on trial day 14, the Superintendent and the camcorder tapes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should we start with some housekeeping?

[Anya Kane]

Sure. Let's start out by thanking the wonderful Ali Dylan for being a murder sheet lifesaver, line saver. Thank you so much. It was so nice to meet you and just, like, seriously, like, saving our lives here. Shout out to Ally for braving the cold.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was very cold.

[Anya Kane]

It was very cold out and she was awesome. And I'm sorry for info dumping about the Lincoln assassination.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Never ask Anya about the Lincoln assassination.

[Anya Kane]

I don't even think she did. I think I just brought it up. So it. Like, it's not her fault. It's just been a time. But it was really nice talking to you. And again, thank you so much.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I want to stress what Anya said. The people who wait for us in the line, actually, they're more than just lifesavers. They've become show savers. Because the fact of the matter is, people actually start lining up for the next day session before the previous day session ends. So in other words, while we're sitting in the courthouse listening to Judge Goal and the attorneys wrap up for the day, people are already getting in line and there's such a limited number of seats that it would be difficult, if not impossible, for us to. We'd have to, like, leave court, rush to get in line, and then stay in line. And there. There wouldn't be any show and there probably wouldn't be any Kevin and Anya because we wouldn't be eating or sleeping.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it's. It's, you know, it's. It's so appreciated in all of you and everyone who's volunteered and just thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, it means you all mean the world to us.

[Anya Kane]

It means the world to us. Absolutely. And we just really appreciate you guys and appreciate it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're just a couple of idiots just sitting here talking into microphones. And so it means so much.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, exactly. So today it's going to be a shorter episode, as Kevin alluded to. Let me give you a sense. I'm typically filling up a notebook. I have these kind of small reporter notebooks that you kind of flip around. And that's my preferred notebook. And normally I'm maybe I have a couple of extra pages left over. Today I only wrote down 12 pages. So six pages, double sided, 12 pages of notes, that's all I got.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have a much larger notebook than Anya. I guess it's a clash. The cliche of the guy wants the big car, I want the big notebook.

[Anya Kane]

You're a lawyer. It's a legal pad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a legal pad. I usually fill up anywhere between 30 to 40 pages. Today I filled up three. And a lot of that is doodling.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, a lot of mine is doodling. And not even good doodles like I did the other day of that Frankenstein guy. These are just, this is just like weird shapes. I mean, not a lot happened today. And we're not going to waste your time, we value your time. So let's just get into why nothing happened today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you may remember that yesterday there was some discussion that the defense wanted to introduce certain videos taken of Richard Allen while he was in prison. And it was determined that the videos that would allow be allowed to be admitted, at least at this stage, would be camcorder videos with the audio stripped out of, I believe, Richard Allen being escorted to and from his cell on different occasions.

[Anya Kane]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so that was what was going to be shown today. Court was delayed a bit. And the reason for that is the attorneys, at least lead attorney Brad Rosie, Judge Goal and prosecutor Nick McLean were having some sort of discussion. And the end result of that discussion was that it was decided that because these videos contained explicit scenes that out of respect for the dignity of Richard Allen, the people sitting in the gallery would not be permitted to see the videos that they would be, these silent videos would be displayed on a screen in such a way that the jury could see them, but the people in the gallery could not. And let's talk about that for a minute. I can tell you we talked to some people over the break in the middle of the session, and a lot of people in the gallery were outraged by this decision. And one reason was just a week or so ago in this trial were displayed, frankly, horrific images of the bodies of Abby Williams and Liberty German, including graphic and highly disturbing photos of their wounds. And those were displayed on the screen for the gallery to see and all members of the public to see. And so people were expressing anger, feeling that perhaps there was a double standard and not understanding why. Exactly. It was decided that the man who, to say the very least, has been plausibly accused and charged with the murder of these two girls is being afforded more dignity and more protection of that dignity than these two girls. And I'd also like to say something else. This is also a public access issue, because these are exhibits in a public murder trial. And if the defense maintains that what's seen in these videos is so bad that it somehow explains that Richard Allen made false confessions, I guess that's the upshot, right, Anya?

[Anya Kane]

The upshot is that and juror sympathy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. So it is plausible that if this jury ends up choosing to acquit Richard Allen of these crimes he's been charged with, it is plausible that that decision would at least partially be based upon the videos that they saw, videos which are not being shared with the public. And the public has the right to that information because the public should have the ability to determine and evaluate and weigh this evidence themselves. And if. If the jurors decisions might be based on something that's being withheld from the public, I. I find that to be an outrageous situation. What do you think about all this, Anya?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Concur with all of that. And I also want to note something that I found rather bizarre about Gull's. Judge Francis Gull's ruling here that I don't really understand. Is that. So these videos ranged in length from I think maybe like under a minute to up to maybe like over 50 minutes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think one was 52 minutes.

[Anya Kane]

Right. And so we didn't watch all of them. Straight through some of them. We did some of the shorter ones.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And to be clear, when Anya says watch, we did not watch them.

[Anya Kane]

We didn't watch them. We watched the jury watch them. But one thing that Brad Rosie, who was doing the direct here and sort of directing this whole thing was doing was saying, judge, can I advance a minute? Judge, can I advance two minutes? There were many times where he'd skip ahead. So the jury's not even seeing all of the video. They're seeing portions of the video. And I understand, like, if there's sort of quote, unquote, dead time, maybe it's like, okay, nothing's happening here. Let's go to this relevant portion. But without the public being able to see what's going on, it's sort of troubling because I don't think that what the jury saw will be replicated to the public ever, because we don't. We don't. We won't have Brad Rosie there saying, okay, I remember I skipped ahead here, boom. And I skipped ahead two minutes here, boom. Boom.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we don't know what parts the jury saw and what parts were skipped over. And we don't know if it was just innocent skipping or if there was a reason why Mr. Rosie may have chosen those particular moments to skip over.

[Anya Kane]

This could have been a lot of cherry picking here, frankly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And let me bring up. Let's all play a mental game. The other day in court, a number of recordings of telephone calls were played, and these were telephone calls between Richard Allen and his wife and his mother. And in these calls, he made incriminating statements. Imagine how we would all feel if the prosecution was fast forwarding through parts of those calls and only playing parts of the calls instead of giving the entire context of those calls. I think a lot of people would be very concerned. Imagine how we would feel if it was said, well, these calls are too sensitive. Let's not let the public hear them. Let's just let the jury hear them. That, again, would be. It's entirely possible the jury may decide to convict based on those calls. So it is appropriate that the public get a chance to hear those calls. And if those calls have been shielded from the public or if parts of it had been fast forward and skipped over, I think a lot of people would be outraged, and in my mind, justifiably so. So I do not understand this decision. I think Judge Gold does not have the best track record on public access issues.

[Anya Kane]

Well, I just don't even understand it because it completely conflicts with what she said the other day about the phone calls. It was like if McLeland had wanted to. If Nick McClellan, the Carroll county prosecutor, had wanted to play, like, a portion of the phone call, but cut out the part where Richard Allen said, I feel like I'm losing my mind, that would have been deeply unfair because perhaps for some people, the I'm losing my mind portion. My. Well, maybe he's having an episode or something. So I don't understand this. It was bizarre, and I actually kind of. I'm shocked that the defense wanted it to go this way. To be perfectly blunt, given the amount of showboating that has gone on in the pretrial phase and not really during trial, actually, it's kind of been a lot more muted, and we'll talk about that. But I would have thought that they would want to essentially, you know, continue to pile up upon the martyrdom of Richard Allen. And this would be an easy way of doing that by showing the public videos of how bad a time he's experiencing. Because I'm sure whatever they show is horrific. You know, today the videos would have been a. Filmed on a camcorder held by prison guards following him as he left his cell.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm not. Let's not even say they're horrific because we didn't see them.

[Anya Kane]

We didn't see them. But, like, I mean, I guess for most people. Not. I think for most people, like, if you were suddenly thrust into a prison situation, it would be a totally different world that you wouldn't be able to imagine.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

And that's normal for people who work in a prison, but it's, like, scary for a normal person who's never been in a prison. Right. And so that's what I'm saying. It'd be like, whoa, he's all chained up when he's walking the shower. That's. I. That doesn't happen to me at home. You know, like, it's one of those things, and I'm just like. I don't know, like, it. It just seemed baffling. I don't know why she made that call. And I also don't know why the defense made that call, because, again, they seem to be more playing to the media, playing to social media. So it kind of confused me that why they wouldn't want that out there, especially since they're the ones putting in front of the jury. I know there's been. My understanding has been a lot of, like now. So let's get. Like, there were 15 videos in total before.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let me say something else. I said that I feel that this is a public access issue. And I said that I believe Judge Gold made the wrong call here, and that I believe Judge Gold's record on public access is horrible. And I'll probably say a lot more about that in later episodes after the trial is over. But it is a horrible track record, and she deserves a lot of criticism for that.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

With that said, despite my strong feelings towards Judge Goal on that point, I want to say that some of the criticism she has gotten throughout her tenure on this case has been unfair. And one of the things that she gets criticized for a lot is that she is supposedly supposed to be a prosecution judge, a judge who will do whatever the prosecutor asks her to do. And that's not the case. And it certainly wasn't the case today because prosecutor Nick McLeland strenuously objected to the playing of these videos. And he. He made it clear over and over again. He had a continuing objection to each of the videos, and Judge G allowed them to be played, at least to the jury. Regardless. So she is certainly not someone who always does what the prosecution wants. And I mean we go back through the entire case and find many, many other times when she has sided with the defense over the prosecution. I just thought it was worth noting that now, since I feel some of the criticism she gets is warranted, I feel that particular criticism of her is unfair.

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[Anya Kane]

I think she's on the legal side of things. Has been pretty even handed. One thing that people maybe, you know, I mean like I hear people oh well, she mostly rules against the defense. The defense often asks for some pretty out there stuff. So that's not exactly surprising. You know, I mean if you're in a, if you're in a football game and one side is trying to like, you know, do like handstands or like change the rules, then you imagine the refs are going to call against them a little bit more. Right. I mean as opposed to the team that's mostly following the rules and whatever. So I'm like that's not really that surprising. But even that with that said, she absolutely. And she's often, you know, over overruled. Prosecution objections. Sustained. Defense objections. I mean when you're actually there in court, it's you're not sitting there being like wow, she's always against them. You're like she's kind of just calling it like she sees it which is what a judge is supposed to do. Just because she comes from a prosecution background doesn't mean she's incapable of being a judge. That's ridiculous. Just as if it's ridiculous to say if someone comes from a defense attorney background they shouldn't be a judge because they'd be pro defense. It's like, yeah, everyone's influenced by their perspectives and their experiences, but that's kind of life. And if you're a judge, you know, you're supposed to, I don't know, set that aside. Some of the criticism about her has been just frankly bizarre because it's like there is stuff to criticize. We could talk about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There is a lot of stuff to criticize this judge for. And I have very strong feelings.

[Anya Kane]

But, but, but like, but when, when you're just throwing in like the kitchen sink, it's just kind of makes it all meaningless because you're like, that's not like people are saying, oh, she's giving McLean signals to object. And it's like, that's not even close to what's going on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's ludicrous and people are just lying. Another thing we would talk about after this is over, maybe in a wrap up show is it, is, it is shocking. It's, it's shocking to the conscience, frankly, that we sit in this courtroom every day, we see exactly what's going on and then we get glimpses of how other people with agendas are covering it. And they're, they're lying. I mean, they're lying.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But tell us about these videos.

[Anya Kane]

They're. Okay. Well, there's not much to tell. Kevin and I were sitting in the corner and not, I don't know if anyone in front of us could see them, but like we were in, at the end of a row. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think anyone in. If those, if they were visible to anyone, they should have been visible to.

[Anya Kane]

Us, I would think. And we didn't see anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We didn't see anything.

[Anya Kane]

And so we saw the back of this TV that Max Baker, Rosie's intern, and Rosie set up in front of the, you know, like jury. And so we, we were essentially just trying to watch the jury because that's all there is. There were 15 videos in total. I mentioned some of them were under a minute. Some of them were 52 minutes. The longer ones Rosie sort of skipped through randomly. No audio.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe randomly.

[Anya Kane]

Well, skipped through maybe randomly or maybe not randomly or maybe, who knows? It just, it was weird. And I actually was not even in a really great place to see a lot of the jurors, to be honest. Now, I can. I can tell you the ones I saw. It's hard to read their expressions. It was hard to read their expressions here. And we can go back to the one I'm thinking of in the. With the notebook.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We do that in a minute.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, but. But in the meantime, during break, I did approach a couple of folks that I trust who, you know, kind of were in a better position to get a better view of the jury. And I just tried to poll people. What do you think? I asked them, did the. Did the jurors, to you look bored, upset and disturbed or just engaged, like they're taking it all in? A number of people said it was impossible for them to read. Quite a few said they thought they looked bored, or at least some of them did. And then a few also said they thought some of them looked upset and they would give reasons. Like, this guy kept touching his face. I saw this woman wipe her eye at one point. And so basically, the answer is, no one knows what's going on. We can't read these people's minds. But I tried.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And I saw. I tried to look at the jury as best I could from my vantage point. Sometimes some people would seem bored, and then later they'd seem more engaged. Some people would seem upset and then seem bored. It's hard to know. And, of course, it's entirely possible to fear. Feel that. Oh, what's happening with. To Richard Allen in this video is unfortunate, but still conclude that he's guilty and deserves to be incarcerated. That. That's another point I want to make. I. I think it's important. When we look at the witnesses these. These defense lawyers are putting up, really, the question is. The question we should be focused on is the prosecution has produced evidence which they say proves that Richard Allen committed these murders on February 13th. So when I'm looking at these defense witnesses, I'm asking myself, does anything from these defense witnesses affect or pertain to our understanding of February 13, 2017, and whether or not Richard Allen was involved in this? And if so, maybe it could raise a reasonable doubt. And if not, why are we wasting our time? For instance, the first witness for the defense was this woman, Cheyenne, who was at the Monon High Bridge, which is where the kidnapping occurred. She was there, like an hour later, and she saw nothing really relevant. And so you could believe that everything that Cheyenne said as presented by the defense, is complete gospel truth, and it doesn't have any impact whatsoever on the question of Richard Allen's guilt or innocence. So I would hope that at some point they would actually start presenting witnesses that actually are relevant to the central question of this trial.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And these videos. You know, he could be treated horribly in prison, he could be treated like a king in prison. But ultimately that does not tell us anything about whether or not he was on that bridge with Abby and Libby on February 13, 2017.

[Anya Kane]

I will note one thing that's kind of struck me when the defense has been talking about his horrible conditions. A lot of what the talk is about situations that on some level he was inflicting upon himself with his behavior. And what I mean by that is, like, there's not. There's been two incidents, I believe. I think it's two. It might be one, but I think it's two where he got tased for not removing his hands from the cuff port, which is a big no in prison because they want you to put your hands away so you can't try anything. Right. And so getting tased is scary and I'm sure very painful. So that those are two instances where it's like, okay, yeah, there's, there's, there's that kind of moment where he's getting tased that, that could be something to single out for, like, look how badly he was treated. But we're not hearing a lot about him getting beaten or being subjected to threats from guards. We've heard that the other inmates were at times chanting for him to kill himself and that he was a baby killer. But when it comes to actually people doing something to him, we've not heard a lot about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Kane]

So I'd be curious. I'd love to see the videos because I'd love to know, is that true? Are we seeing kind of harsh treatment from guards or are we seeing guards who are essentially trying to take care of a man who is, for whatever reason, smearing himself in feces, banging his head against the wall lightly, but enough to cause swelling later on, and various things, you know, that we've all heard about. So I'm just, I'm just curious because it's very hard to assess any of this information without seeing that. If you might see. If you see people being really mean to him all the time, then you might say, well, I don't know. But as you said, ultimately it's sort of irrelevant. If Cheyenne had seen. If Cheyenne Mill had seen a man identical to Richard Allen's description strolling down the lane at 2:30, then that would be a pretty big deal. Because you could say, well, listen, maybe he didn't kill them. Because how could he be out there at 2:30 when Libby's phone stopped moving at 2:32pm That's a big deal. That totally throws the state's timeline off. We've not heard that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've not heard that.

[Anya Kane]

We've heard a bunch of irrelevant stuff.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think basically we've covered what we can cover about these videos. But let's do.

[Anya Kane]

Well, did you want to talk about the guy with the notebook?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what I was about to say.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's do this.

[Anya Kane]

A little one who noticed this more.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's a little bit of color. So the way it was structured was the screen was set up so only the jury could see it. And obviously the attorneys want to also be able to see it. And so some of them moved over so they would be either standing or sitting pretty close to the jury so they could see what the jury is being shown. And one of the attorneys who did this was Jennifer Auger. And she goes and she stands by the jury box pretty close to the juror who is sitting at the edge of the jury box, the first juror in the box. And he a couple of times looked a little uncomfortable. And then whenever he was taking notes or using his notebook, he was careful to hold his notebook and notes in such a way as to shield it from the view of Ms. O.J. and I'm not suggesting that Ms. O.J. was doing anything inappropriate. No, I'm. I'm just saying the juror was plainly uncomfortable.

[Anya Kane]

You did not want her seeing what she used. I saw that when you pointed it out to me, and I saw it and I saw him just like leaning away to kind of, you know, he may like. I don't like it when people are looking over my shoulder either. I don't think that's what she was doing. I think she was just trying to stand there. Essentially. One of the prosecutors was always sitting in the little seat sort of near the front of of the jury. At first it was McLean, then it was Stacy Deener. So she would go behind them and sort of stand. I will note that Ms. Oer at one point looked very upset to me, watching the video, has sort of her hand pressed against her mouth. Like, you know, it was horrifying. Baldwin, Andrew Baldwin, one of the other attorneys, went over there and he looked very emotional. This is a. This is an attorney who's often, if you've ever read his website, you know, there's a lot of emotion a Lot of. A lot of crying. And so I think that that was. That was something I noticed. But, yeah, the jurors themselves, hard to read. I feel like some of them at times, to me, looked upset when I was kind of. I would crane my neck a little bit and be like, is that person upset? And then I remember one guy who I could see very well. I was like, this guy looks like he's very disturbed by this. And at the end, he kind of sort of straightens up casually looks up at the clock. So I don't know. It's hard to read. You can't read any of this. And hard to know because we don't know even what they saw. I'd like to just say one more thing, I guess. I mean, like, we knew that there was going to be what we thought would be a huge witness today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Could we say one more thing about this? So we wanted to. We imagined that the videos would be shown today. And so we. There are two sides of the courtroom, one court. One side is more of the jury side, and then on the other side is where the prosecution sits and where the family sits. And we sat more on the jury side because we were hoping to be able to see these videos so we could describe them to you this afternoon. Of course, that didn't happen. But from where we were sitting, we didn't have the greatest view of, like Richard Allen, for instance, certainly not as good a view as we would have had on other occasions. But we talked to a number of people we know and trust on the other side of the gallery, and they saw something that we did not see. But I think there are reputable people. Incredible. So with. With the understanding and the disclaimer, we did not personally see this ourselves, but we talked to people who did on.

[Anya Kane]

The other side of the gallery.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Shall we share what this anecdote is?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Richard Allen may have eaten a sticky note.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. He appeared to write something to himself on. He write a note on a sticky note and then put it in his mouth, after which it was not seen again.

[Anya Kane]

So given his predication for eating discovery, that that was odd to hear. And again, we. We did run it down on the other side where people had a better view again on in the gallery side and just asked a few people. And yeah, there was some talk and people had seen that, so we didn't see it. But I guess it's possible that it was maybe in an optical illusion and he had the sticky note and he kind of, I don't know, like, swallowed and maybe people Saw the wrong thing. So I'm not saying it definitely happened, but a lot of people saw this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of people saw it, and so we wanted to pass it on.

[Anya Kane]

Also, didn't you lock eyes with Alan again after yesterday's bizarre pointing incident?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I locked eyes with him again and this time he. At the end of it, he. He nodded at me and then turned away. Okay, so not a very, you know what, a very big nod.

[Anya Kane]

Very big nod. Yeah, I've seen him do that to other people before. So, yeah, it's. It's interesting. So I, I know he was doing heart gestures at somebody who was sitting in the defense. You know, he, you know, kind of like, you know, when you put your hand together where you form a heart. So he's, he's got like, he didn't seem like in a bad place necessarily today. Like, he seemed like. He wasn't like, I wouldn't use any terms like out of control or being particularly creepy or like, like it wasn't necessarily like, malevolent. It was just like he seemed more like communicative today just through gestures with the gallery side of things. So make of that what you will. I suppose what you will. Now, do you want to go on to the. What. What maybe in 2019, Reddit would have been like the marquee witness, Please.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Kane]

So Superintendent Doug Carter is, in some ways, for many people, the. The face of this investigation of into the deli murders hadn't. Has been for years because he is a person who is very much a public communicator and gets out there and talks about what this case means to him and is emotional.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think one reason, frankly, that this case has gotten as much attention as it did is because Superintendent Carter is such an effective communicator. And if you watch some of these clips of him at press conferences and you hear the emotion in his voice, it is impossible not to care.

[Anya Kane]

I have felt like at times that people following this case were treating his words in press conferences like they were some sort of like, decoded language that they could decipher and figure it out. And I've always thought that that was a little bit too much, but I can understand why, because again, he's definitely speaks from the heart and he made it clear how much this case was important to him at some of these different press conferences. And so that gets people engaged. They want to know more. They want to see if this can be solved. And so again, Carter is the superintendent of the state police. He's not boots on the ground in terms of being the one investigating this case. But he, because of some of those public appearances, has very much sort of assumed that role of people associating him with the case. So we, it was reported, and we had heard that Doug Carter might be called today as a witness by the defense. And then we saw Doug Carter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was there, folks, in.

[Anya Kane]

In the, you know, in the well of the court. And we were like, oh, hey, it's Doug Carter. So here we go. And I remember thinking, okay, well, we. This has been very quiet day due to these endless videos that none of us can see. So at the very least, we're getting what should be an interesting witness. And what we had talked about beforehand, what we believed that Doug Carter was going to be there for, was, you know, potentially information about, like, where this investigation went. But one thing that we thought that might be a big deal for Carter, from the defense perspective, is Andrew Baldwin, in his opening, made a huge deal alluding to some nasty breakup between the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Indiana State Police, as and the Indiana State Police, I guess Carroll County Sheriff's Office Consortium, where it's like, ISP booted the FBI out, kicked him out of the case. And that's. That's something that, as Superintendent Carter could speak to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. So we imagine that that would be why he was being called.

[Anya Kane]

Because let me just say, when you set something up in your opening statement, one would think that you would want to sow the seed and let the tree grow.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Now, before we get into what Doug Carter said, let me go back to what I was saying a minute ago. The story of what may or may not have happened between the Indiana State Police and the FBI may be a very interesting story. It may be a story that maybe we'd consider putting on the book or covering in the podcast at some point if we get more details about it. But the question I have is, are administrative and investigative decisions made between the FBI and the Indiana State Police? Are they going to shine any light on what happened on February 13th on that bridge, and are they going to produce any reasonable doubt about what the state contends happened that day? In other words, if the. If the Indiana State Police superintendent said, the FBI, we don't need you, does that mean Richard Allen is innocent? Or is it just totally irrelevant to any question of his guilt or innocence? And I believe that whatever happened between these two agencies is ultimately irrelevant unless you can establish that the FBI would have done something that the Indian State Police did not do. And what they would have done would have somehow proved Richard Allen's innocence, which sounds really far fetched to me.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So to me, whatever happened between them might be interesting, might be good for a book or a podcast. Pretty irrelevant to the question of Richard Allen's guilt or innocence.

[Anya Kane]

I, I completely agree. It, it has no, I mean, like, like, let's go over everybody. Teresa Liebert seeing a man at a mailbox who she thinks she never saw before but cannot describe it all at 8:30 the day of the murders. Doesn't matter for Richard Allen. Brad Heath seeing a car that looked like it was from The Fugitive, the 1990s film, you know, on the day of the murder. Parked for a while and doesn't remember if there was cars parked in the CBS parking lot. Irrelevant for Richard Allen. David McCain being there. David McCain and Cheyenne Mill being there well past the time where the girls were likely already dead or abducted, if you believe the defense theory. Irrelevant. Everybody so far they've called has been, you know, the fire chief searching around in the darkness, not going seemingly anywhere near the crime scene. And even if somehow they had, it's very dark out, they have lanterns and they're all spread out because they're looking for two living children or possibly girls who've succumbed to the elements or possibly girls who fell into the water. Like, irrelevant. It's all irrelevant. And frankly, it makes me wonder like if somebody had seen Richard Allen that day and he was acting totally normal at like 3pm Maybe that's not an alibi, but it's relevant because you're like, would you get all the blood off you that quickly? Maybe that raises some doubt. Where are those people?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So with all that said, Doug Carter was actually on and off the stand in probably 10 minutes.

[Anya Kane]

Oh yeah, this was nothing. Okay. So he establishes that he was superintendent for 12 years. He's retiring soon, I believe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

And he talked about, they asked him what kind of how many agencies were involved. He said Indiana State Police, dozens of agencies, obviously. Carroll County Sheriff's Office as well as sheriff's offices of all the contiguous counties. And from the federal perspective, you had ATF, FBI, U.S. marshals.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Baldwin was like, oh, FBI, tell us more about that. They were involved for a while and then they weren't involved. When did they leave? And Carter, Superintendent Carter said, I think they left sometime in 2021. Baldwin was like, well, would this refresh your recollection? And he shows him some document. Carter looks at it and says, well, it looks like the FBI left in August of 2021. There was a brief sidebar after which, Baldwin gets Carter. He asked Carter a couple of questions, and Carter says, well, it was my decision for the FBI to leave the case, and when they left, I asked them to return all investigative documents they might have. And Baldwin had no further questions, and McLean had no questions, and the jurors had no questions.

[Anya Kane]

And I had many questions like, what the heck was that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I want to make a yes.

[Anya Kane]

Why did we do this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want to make a point, first of all, that when you ask if someone is. If an agency is leaving an investigation, it's not unusual to ask them to return all investigative documents because you want to keep them all secure.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. You don't just give the FBI all the documents for, like, a keepsake for fond memories. Also, what's the federal nexus here? Yeah, so, I mean, listen, the FBI has resources and can be a great tool, I'm sure, for, like, local law enforcement, because perhaps in some cases, they have investigative tools that are not readily accessible to the local outfits, although I'm sure ISP provides many of the same ones. And so if it's a situation where there's no federal nexus, the FBI has other concerns. I mean, they're taught. Let's just think about this for a minute. They're talking about people like Special Agent, now Supervisory Special Agent Adam Pol, who is now working Texas election security for this election, and prior to that was working on some sort of gang task force. So these people have other things to do. And if the leads are drying up and things aren't necessarily going anywhere, I don't think it's reasonable to expect the FBI to continue to pour all of those agents into this situation. Like, at some point, they're going to have to move on. I mean, am I. Am I crazy?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I don't know why the FBI left the case or why Dakar made that decision. That's a plausible scenario if we can find out why. Maybe it's an interesting story. Maybe if we find out something, we'd put it in our book or on the podcast. But the point, I just want to stress is it has no relevance whatsoever to the guilt or innocence of Richard Allen. And I don't know if there's. I don't believe there is anything that the FBI could do that the Indiana State Police could not have done because they have lots of resources.

[Anya Kane]

But also, it's just like. It's like. It just. I think it's just basically to, like, attack the investigation from, like, a really banal standpoint of, like, FBI good, ISP bad, because you Know, I watched a movie, and the FBI agents were good at their jobs, and it's like. Like, if Baldwin had established something, like, the FBI was doing this, this, and this, and then the FB and then the ISP came in and messed it up, and the FBI were doing it really professionally, and then the ISP and the Carroll County Sheriff's Office messed it up. Like, we could maybe go somewhere, because then you could say, well, maybe then they got the wrong guy. But they're not even like. But also, can I just ask you, Like, I'm like, what happened with Baldwin here? It seemed like we were all ready to go. Like, well, why did you kick them out? How could you? You know, like, you're right. From. From a. From an informational. Let's look at the case standpoint. This is all meaningless either way. But from, like, an. Andrew Baldwin is calling Doug Carter and wants to make a point for the jury. Why on earth did this end after, like, three questions?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's entirely possible that we would know the answer to that if we were privy to what was said at that sidebar.

[Anya Kane]

So McClellan basically shuts him down. Presumably, that's what happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know.

[Anya Kane]

I can't believe that Baldwin would call Doug Carter and be like, did you ask them to leave? Yes. And did you ask them to return the documents? Yes. All right. Thanks for coming in. I mean, that's what. Like, people were talking to me afterwards, and they're like, what did that add?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. A lot of people in the courtroom who don't have an active reason to be biased have been expressing bafflement and bewilderment to us about the performance of this defense team.

[Anya Kane]

This was a waste of the court's time. I mean, the vid, not the videos. I don't like. There's no way of us knowing that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We didn't see them.

[Anya Kane]

But the. Colin Carter. And doing this was a waste of the court's time. It was a waste of everybody's time, in my view.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we don't want to waste your time, dear listener. So are we wrapping? Is there anything more we wanted to say?

[Anya Kane]

I'm looking. We went. So there was a. There was a brief Carter respite, and then we went back to videos, which we already talked about, so we don't need to talk about again. And I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we're done.

[Anya Kane]

I think that's it. We'll be back, I guess, Monday and seeing what's going on. One Thinging to note, McLeland, there seemed to be more videos on the way.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Potentially, there's the, we saw the camcorder videos. We may potentially be seeing cell videos. It's not clear. Rosie was very vague on that the other day. He was also vague. He talked about, well, we're not sure we need to have these witnesses like Kagan Klein brought in after all. So they, they seem very clearly to me like they're doing their strategizing on the fly, which in some cases could be good because you're, you're responding to things in the moment. But it feels like this defense team, frankly, has been woefully underprepared for this.

[Anya Kane]

I've been, I. My expectations were not necessarily super high, but they've not been.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, they've not been met.

[Anya Kane]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of people, including Anya, famously, she kept on predicting that the trial would be delayed by request of the defense because they'd been preparing so hard, they've been working so hard on their Odinism defense. And after that went nowhere, people imagined they would want time to come up with a different theory. And they didn't choose to take that time. And so we thought, well, they must have something else and maybe not. Apparently the something else they had was, you know, please reconsider Odinism.

[Anya Kane]

She's. I'm going to just say, yeah, this isn't going well so far for them. They can probably bring out some expert witnesses, maybe that can do something. But I really do feel like this, prosecuting, this prosecution team is very, very prepared to do some cross examination. So I'm like, I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I saw what this team. I saw what Nick McLean did when he cross examined Don Perlmutter.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I've seen over the summer, we'll never forget that. And so if there's more like that, then I don't. Even the expert witnesses, they're not even bothering to really cross this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want the defense to present something about Richard Allen and, or February 13th. And by Richard Allen, I mean Richard Allen and his life on and before February 13, 2017. Yeah, because they've not rebutted anything about his activities on that day. And they, at least in my mind, have not given this jury any reason to doubt that he was on the bridge that day.

[Anya Kane]

I concur. I don't, I don't. I'm, I'm, I'm surprised by the performance so far. Not, not in a good way. And I will say this. McLeland is going to cross Max Baker once all these videos are done, or if we're already done, I guess next time and then who knows the videos. But that's coming too, so I'll be curious. Some people said it was kind of odd that Rosie didn't bother asking him to put any context or talk about. He didn't really. It was just more of like, tell me about this video. This video, this video. So it'll be interesting to see the cross and what ends up happening with that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is that it? Can we wrap? Let these people go and enjoy their weekend.

[Anya Kane]

Enjoy your weekend, everybody. Thanks for sticking with us and certainly tune in next week and we'll hopefully have more information for you and not just us watching other people watch stuff. So, because that's, you know, we don't want to. We don't want to waste.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's not fun for anybody.

[Anya Kane]

No, it's really not. And it just. Yeah, well, anyways, thanks very much and we appreciate y'all listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anyway, thanks so much for listening to the Murdersheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Kane]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at wwpatreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintgar.

[Anya Kane]

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful silver Linings handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy. Well, being like he does it all, this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space. Just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to, like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's been a really good friend to us. And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I think, I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show. He's been on our show a couple times. We've been on his show. He's a terrific guest. I, I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this. That really resonated. Like, I do quote him in, in, in conversation sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different, complicated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She quotes them to me all the time.

[Anya Kane]

I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think. And you like us, you, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can, can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's compassionate, it's affirming. But I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is, is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you all really enjoy it. Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

And he's got a great community that he's building, so we're really excited to be a part of that. We're really, we're fans of the show. We love it. And we would strongly encourage you all just check it out, download some episodes. Listen, I think you'll, you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wherever you listen to podcasts. Very easy to find.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely.