The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Thirteen: Intern, Exterminator, Photographer, Sheriff

Summary

The Murder Sheet: The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen on Trial: Day Thirteen

Release Date: November 2, 2024

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Introduction

In this episode of The Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into Day Thirteen of the trial against Richard Allen for the brutal murders of two young girls in Delphi. This trial has been a focal point in true crime circles, drawing significant attention due to its complex legal maneuvers and the intense scrutiny of both prosecution and defense strategies.

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Overview of Day Thirteen

Day Thirteen marked a pivotal moment in the trial as it was the first full day of the defense presenting its case. Áine Cain and Brad Rosie (Kevin Greenlee) provide a comprehensive analysis of the day's proceedings, highlighting the defense's attempts to challenge the prosecution's strong case against Richard Allen.

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Witness Testimonies

1. Christopher Goatee ([08:22])

Christopher Goatee, a police officer from the Hammond Police Department assigned to the GRIT (Gang Response Investigation Task Force), testified about his involvement in the case of the Delphi murders. Goatee discussed his collaboration with FBI Special Agent Adam Pole in conducting canvas interviews—essentially gathering data by interviewing residents in the area.

Notable Quote:

“He was answering questions. He was doing the minimum. But he clearly was not happy about this.” — Áine Cain ([06:10])

The defense attempted to undermine Goatee's credibility by pointing out discrepancies in statements, particularly concerning interactions with Brad Weber. However, their efforts seemed unprepared, failing to elicit significant doubt about the prosecution's case.

2. Max Baker ([44:30])

Max Baker, a recent IU graduate and legal assistant, presented a compilation of Richard Allen's behaviors from his time at Westville. He showcased footage from camcorders and security cameras, although legal restrictions limited the presentation of certain videos.

Notable Quote:

"Some of these videos are condensed or they're sped up at this point." — Brad Rosie ([47:05])

The defense faced challenges verifying the authenticity and relevance of the footage, leading to delays and failed attempts to present key evidence.

3. Brad Heath ([51:34])

Brad Heath, a retired exterminator, provided an alibi for the timeframe surrounding the murders. He recalled seeing a dark blue vehicle parked suspiciously near the Monon High Bridge between 8:45 AM and 4:00 PM on February 13, 2017.

Notable Quote:

“I saw a car parked... It looked out of place.” — Brad Heath ([51:32])

However, Heath's testimony did not align with the prosecution's timeline, as the vehicle was present after the estimated time of the murders, rendering his alibi ineffective in casting doubt on Allen's involvement.

4. Daryl Sterett ([67:00])

Daryl Sterett, a former volunteer fire chief, discussed the initial response efforts to the missing girls. He detailed the organized search operations conducted by the fire department in collaboration with local law enforcement.

Notable Quote:

“We feared that something had happened to the girls. They’d been swept downstream.” — Daryl Sterett ([68:55])

Sterett emphasized the challenges faced during the search, including environmental factors and coordination difficulties, which inadvertently supported the prosecution's argument about the time-sensitive nature of the investigation.

5. David McCain ([57:14])

David McCain, affiliated with Millennial Highbridge community projects, recounted his activities on the day of the murders. He stated that he was on the trail taking photographs between 2:00 PM and 4:00 PM when he noticed a parked vehicle. However, his recollections were vague, leaving inconsistencies in his alibi.

Notable Quote:

“I didn't remember names of the people who interviewed me.” — David McCain ([60:05])

McCain's testimony mirrored that of Brad Heath, further weakening the defense's position by providing additional accounts that did not directly challenge Allen's presence at the crime scene.

6. Tob Lesnby ([90:36])

Tob Lesnby, the former Sheriff of Carroll County and now Chief Deputy, primarily addressed administrative aspects of the investigation. His testimony touched upon procedural details, including the accidental overwriting of crucial interview recordings.

Notable Quote:

“It matters essentially what the evidence is.” — Tob Lesnby ([86:56])

Lesnby's admission of lost interviews raised concerns about the thoroughness of the investigation but did not provide substantial evidence to exonerate Allen.

7. Steve Mullen ([77:20])

Steve Mullen, a former Delphi Police Chief, faced intense cross-examination questioning by the defense regarding the integrity of the investigation. The defense highlighted procedural lapses, such as unrecorded phone calls and lost evidence, to suggest possible mishandling by law enforcement.

Notable Quote:

“I thought I did.” — Steve Mullen ([81:38])

Mullen acknowledged earlier misconceptions about the number of individuals involved, which the defense leveraged to cast doubt on the prosecution's narrative.

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Analysis and Insights

Áine Cain and Brad Rosie critically assess the defense's performance on Day Thirteen, expressing skepticism about their preparedness and strategy. They note that the defense's reliance on witness testimonies that do not directly challenge the prosecution's case appears unorganized and ineffective.

Key Points:

• Defense Preparedness: The hosts highlight apparent shortcomings in the defense's approach, suggesting that the witnesses presented did not robustly counter the prosecution's arguments.

• Prosecution's Strength: The prosecution's case remains strong, with substantial evidence and credible testimonies pointing towards Richard Allen's culpability.

• Judge's Rulings: Judge Go's decisions to limit certain testimonies and evidence presentations indicate a tightening of the trial's focus, potentially disadvantaging the defense's attempts to introduce alternative theories.

Notable Quote:

“It feels like they are not as prepared as they should have been for this trial.” — Brad Rosie ([40:59])

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Notable Moments

• Unusual Courtroom Behavior: An incident where Richard Allen was seen pointing at the hosts during a break raised questions about his behavior and potential intimidation tactics.

  Notable Quote:

  “He might have been pointing at us.” — Brad Rosie ([42:54])

• Trail Camera Obsession: Both hosts and jurors fixated on trail camera footage, debating its relevance and the clarity it provides regarding the movements of suspects and witnesses.

  Notable Quote:

  “What's the reason for that question?” — Brad Rosie ([52:37])

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Conclusion

Day Thirteen of Richard Allen's trial showcased the prosecution's robust case and the defense's struggle to present a coherent counter-narrative. Áine Cain and Brad Rosie convey a sense of disappointment with the defense's effectiveness, emphasizing the difficulty in establishing reasonable doubt against the strong evidence presented by the prosecution.

As the trial progresses, the hosts anticipate further analysis of upcoming testimonies and evidence, maintaining a critical perspective on the unfolding legal battle.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “Why get all your holiday decorations delivered through Instacart? Because maybe you only bought two wreaths but have 12 windows.” — Anya Cain ([00:00])

• “If they turn it around with some really great expert witnesses, we could be seeing like, okay, here's where they're going.” — Anya Cain ([06:14])

• “You have to be on. You have to be at their best doing just incredible work and blowing us all away.” — Brad Rosie ([06:49])

• “Most people who disagree have not been sitting in this courtroom.” — Brad Rosie ([07:31])

• “It was a very interesting case because sometimes people in psychosis will actually be telling the truth about what happened.” — Dr. Deanna Dwanger ([34:57])

• “This was a bad day for the defense. It doesn't get better from here, folks.” — Brad Rosie ([66:13])

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Final Thoughts:

Hosts Áine Cain and Brad Rosie provide a thorough examination of Day Thirteen, shedding light on the intricate dynamics of the trial. Their insightful commentary underscores the challenges faced by the defense in countering a well-substantiated prosecution case, leaving listeners poised for the continuing developments in this high-profile trial.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls as well as issues around mental health so today is November 1, 2024. We are still here in the Delphi trial covering it every day and today was another day. It was kind of the first full day of the defense put putting on its case and so we're here to report back to you about what we saw. My name is Anya Cain, I'm a.

[Brad Rosie]

Journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee, I'm an.

[Anya Cain]

Attorney and this is the murder sheet.

[Brad Rosie]

We're a true crime Podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the murder sheet, and this is the Delphi Murders. Richard Allen on trial day 13. Intern, exterminator, photographer, Sheriff. That title sounded like a cool John Le Carre novel in my head, but when I said it out loud, it just sounded so kind of confusing. So I definitely take the blame for that. One thing we want to give thanks for is our wonderful line sitters last night, folks. You lifesavers, you line sitters, you're saving our lives and you're making this possible for us to do this without sounding quite as out of our minds as we would otherwise. I think it's. It's. It's still not perfect, but we. We just want to thank you. Thank you to Jennifer Lynn and to Michelle Jensen. You guys are awesome. We really appreciate you and we want to welcome Michelle into the coveted two timers wing of the. The old lifesavers department. Kevin's rolling out. He's. He's building this whole thing up into a quite a thing.

[Brad Rosie]

Yes, I am.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. As you are want to do. But yeah, we really appreciate you guys and just everyone who sent nice notes and offered help and just like, just know that means a lot to us. And you know, we. We are choosing to do this because we want to get you information about what's happening here. There's a lot of noise, and hopefully this can help shine a light on some of the stuff that's going on. But ultimately we just, you know, we just appreciate how. How lovely everyone's been and so thank you.

[Brad Rosie]

And I want to say that one of the security personnel was very kind to me today, said some very nice things, so thank you to him.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, well, that's. That was very nice. Yeah. And. And just, you know, just. It's nice. I feel like we've gotten to know people who've been coming a lot and then got to meet new people who kind of come for one day. And that's always just been very nice. So just like everyone we've had a conversation with, you know, just like, we appreciate you. Like, I think people.

[Brad Rosie]

Not quite everyone, but most people.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, most people. Most people. Whoa, now everyone's like, what's the T? No, but I mean, seriously, I think it's been a nice collegial environment for the most part, with some exceptions.

[Brad Rosie]

If anybody wants to know the tea, maybe late at night at some future CR prime con, they can buy me a Mr. Pib.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God.

[Brad Rosie]

Cry it out.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin gets wasted on a Mr. P somehow just fills all his secrets. Well, listen, let's get, let's get to the business.

[Brad Rosie]

Let's get to the business. So today was the first full day for the defense. Of course, they started their case yesterday with a couple of witnesses who, frankly, didn't seem terribly relevant.

[Anya Cain]

They were, they stumbled at the starting block. They.

[Brad Rosie]

So, so let's see how they did on their first full day.

[Anya Cain]

I used to be a competitive swimmer, and I just thought of somebody like some, you know, if you accidentally dive off the block before the buzzer goes, then you get disqualified. And it just, it was not an auspicious start. But today I was kind of like, listen, if they turn it around with some really great expert witnesses, we could be seeing kind of like, okay, here's where they're going, could be getting like, the kind of the thrust behind what they're going to say. And I've always said this, that I, I believe that this defense team has the, of potentially doing, doing some really good work on this. And so we'll discuss about whether we saw that today.

[Brad Rosie]

And let me say something else. If they want their client to be acquitted, they have to do more than just turn it around and do a good job. They have to, like, do the trial equivalent of bowling a 300 game. They have to be on. They have to be at their best doing just incredible work and blowing us all away. Well, I mean, because the case against Richard Allen, frankly, is very strong. The prosecution put him at the bottom of a deep hole. And yeah, I concur.

[Anya Cain]

A lot of people don't agree with us on that, and that's okay. People can have different perspectives.

[Brad Rosie]

I think most of the people who disagree have not been sitting in this courtroom. And I, I, I, I, I'm concerned that some of the sources of information for what's happening in the courtroom are not what you or I would consider to be accurate or reliable.

[Anya Cain]

That's completely fair. And I also just, you know, it's, it's, it's really stunning to see some of the discrepancies. But I will say this. You know, I, I agree with you. This is a strong case against Richard Allen. The state built a strong foundation and then built on and built on and built on it. It's going to take some work to knock down some of those blocks. But, you know, having a bunch of witnesses who don't really have anything to do with anything is not the way forward. And so, of course, that's what we got today. So let's.

[Brad Rosie]

Spoilers.

[Anya Cain]

Spoiler Alert.

[Brad Rosie]

So the first witness was a man named Christopher Goatee.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, Goatee.

[Brad Rosie]

I think you pronounce it Goatee.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Brad Rosie]

Before we get into what he testified about, I think we need to give you a quick reminder that some of the most crucial evidence in this case involves a confession that Richard Allen gave to his therapist, Dr. Monica Walla. And the most important part of that confession is he indicates that he had the two girls who he intended to rape near a road. Sometimes they refer to it as an access road. Sometimes they refer to it as a long driveway, has it in the general vicinity of that road, preparing to rape.

[Anya Cain]

The girls beneath the bridge.

[Brad Rosie]

Beneath the bridge. When he is startled by a van going by. And then he is scared, he crosses the creek with them and he commits murder. And so the prosecution was able to produce someone who lived at the end of that road, a man named Brad Weber, who indeed seems to have been going home at that time from work. They established that he got off work at 202 and it was about a 25 minute drive. So that would put him at that access road where Richard Allen says he saw him. At about the time Richard Allen says he saw him. There has been some sort of indications that Mr. Weber has given a number of statements to law enforcement and at least one of them seems to have been given to the FBI. FBI. And there have been suggestions that perhaps that that statement doesn't fit with his other statements, including what he said in court. But keep in mind, we have not seen this statement.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, when I think about it, there could be a. I mean, like, here's the thing. If it comes out that all of his statements were. No, I was actually. He had an ATM side business. If I was servicing ATMs that day, I couldn't have gotten home at that time. Then I think the state has a problem on their hands. If it comes out that in one of multiple statements he mentions ATMs, like sometimes I would do that when going home, but it's not specific. Then I don't think the state has a problem on their hands. It just depends. We're going to have to find out with everyone else. But I'm just, you know, it could be a big deal, could be not a big deal. And I'm kind of not willing to really get into it because we just don't know what was said at this point. Does that. Is that where you kind of stand or where are you on that?

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, that's where I stand.

[Anya Cain]

So that's where Christopher Goatee comes in?

[Brad Rosie]

Yes, he is A police. He works with the Hammond Police Department.

[Anya Cain]

Hamden.

[Brad Rosie]

I thought it said Hammond.

[Anya Cain]

No, you're right. It's Hammond. I'm sorry.

[Brad Rosie]

You're very, very hard to hear in this.

[Anya Cain]

You're so right. Because he's talking about Hammond is near Chicago, and there was. Yeah, okay. Yep.

[Brad Rosie]

And he also, at one point, he refers to Maryville, which of course is close to Hammond. It's very difficult to hear in this courtroom. And if you've been listening to previous episodes, you know, there have been many occasions where either I have Mish something or Anya has.

[Anya Cain]

I should have figured that out from context clues, though. So I appreciate you correcting me because I wrote down very confidently Camden here. But you're absolutely right.

[Brad Rosie]

This gentleman works. He's. He works with Ham police Department, but he is assigned to a task force with the FBI, I believe it's called GRIT for Gang Response Investigation. And as part of this, he worked with FBI Special Agent, I believe, Adam Pole.

[Anya Cain]

Adam Pol. Yep.

[Brad Rosie]

And they were, in 2017, assigned to this case, the case of the murders of Liberty German and Abigail Williams. And their assignment was basically to go around and do canvas interviews.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Brad Rosie]

What are those?

[Anya Cain]

Canvas interviews are when you're essentially going around to people in the area and asking if anyone saw anything. And is that. Am I even right about that?

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, basically you're just going around doing basic interviews. Essentially, you're gathering data.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Brad Rosie]

Information. And so the other law enforcement people have it. It's a very valuable thing. Not necessarily the most glamorous thing, but it's very, very important.

[Anya Cain]

I thought so. I believe it was Jennifer OJ Doing the direct examination ot and he mentioned his training. He also went into how he was trained in the Reed School technique of interviewing suspects and talking to somebody. I just thought that was interesting because that was something Holman mentioned. Jerry Holman, a lieutenant with the Indiana State Police and the lead investigator on this case, mentioned. And I know the defense was. Was. Was not super happy with what some of the things he was saying about interviewing, but they didn't question Goatee on that at all.

[Brad Rosie]

And this may be a good point. Before we get into what happened with goti, this might be a good point to mention. He did not seem the least bit happy to be there.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Brad Rosie]

And he was not really being what you would call helpful to the defense.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Brad Rosie]

Like Jennifer, Roger was asking him.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, he was answering.

[Brad Rosie]

He was answering questions. He was doing the minimum. But he clearly was not happy about this.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think a lot of these witnesses were frankly, yeah.

[Brad Rosie]

So at one point, for instance, we just mentioned that he. He conducted some canvas interviews, and Jennifer O.J. said, oh, did you do anything besides conduct interviews? And he just kind of looked at her and said, like, what?

[Anya Cain]

That was. That was a funny moment. And then she didn't. She says, well, I'm asking the questions. Yeah, yeah.

[Brad Rosie]

This is when he says, well, one of the people I spoke to, of course, is Brad Weber. And we asked him about his whereabouts on February 13, and he said that after he got off work that day, he went straight home.

[Anya Cain]

Now, this is interesting because around this time, Nicholas McClelland, the Carroll county prosecutor, objected. Hearsay. Oh, I'm sorry, Go ahead.

[Brad Rosie]

You're jumping ahead.

[Anya Cain]

Jumping.

[Brad Rosie]

So he spoke with Brad Weber, and Brad Weber told him that he went home. And Jennifer O.J. said, Straight home. And he said, I don't recall. And then she said, well, I have this FBI report. And maybe if you look at that, maybe that would refresh your recollection. And that is when Nick McLean, the prosecutor, objected and said, there's a lack of foundation here because that report was not written by you, but he was allowed to look at it. And he said, oh, it says, I spoke with Weber on February 19th. And she said, does this refresh your recollection as to whether or not he went straight home looking at this report? And he said, no, it doesn't refresh my recollection. And that was about the end of it.

[Anya Cain]

And, you know, I mean, because it's like he didn't write the report. I imagine they were doing plenty of interviews, so I can understand why someone who's like, rushing around all day talking to different people would not remember the minutia of one random interview he did.

[Brad Rosie]

So first witness of the day, and the defense did not get what they wanted from that witness.

[Anya Cain]

And also, McLean didn't ask any questions. Whenever you have the opposing counsel, just basically after a witness comes out, not even bother with cross examination, that's a. That's a signal that it's basically like, why raise anything that didn't do. It's like kind of. So. So that was it for Goatee. No jury questions either. I think jury questions. When the jury doesn't answer questions, I think it's either like. I mean, I don't want to be mind reading the jury, but my opinion is that it's either they're saying, okay, we completely understood that. No, or they're saying like, well, okay, thanks for letting us know. I think that you can kind of read something into the silence there. But you know, it's just my thought.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Brad Rosie]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Brad Rosie]

Learn [e-mail] tell us about the next witness. Especially because I'm not sure I got her name.

[Anya Cain]

I think it was.

[Brad Rosie]

This witness is presented by Brad Rosie, the lead counsel for Richard Allen.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, and I, and I apologize to this woman for I'm presuming I'm going to say her name wrong, but I had in my notes. Oh no, I think I got it. Dr. Deanna Dwanger and she was a woman with a doctorate in clinical psychology. She is the director for Mental Health with Indiana Department of Correction.

[Brad Rosie]

I had behavioral health.

[Anya Cain]

You're right, it's, you're correct, it's behavioral health director for behavioral health with IDOC. She got her doctorate in 2023. And here's the difference between her and Dr. Monica Wallace. So before she's higher up in the hierarchy than Walla, but Dr. Walla works for a vendor called Centurion that contracts with idoc. So she's on the ground, boots on the ground, doing stuff with, with the, with the inmates. Whereas Dr. Dwanger works directly for IDOC and she's in more of a supervisor position where she is overseeing the contract with Centurion and therefore all of the mental health professionals working there. And so that's kind of where she is basically. So she noted that Dr. Walla's direct supervisor was one Dr. Karras, a clinical supervisor. So she's not like necessarily Wall is not directly reporting to her, but she's just someone above them on, I guess, on the hierarchy in terms of running this. And she had nothing to do with Allen being transferred ultimately from Westville to Wabash Valley. Has never met Richard Allen. Played no role in him moving around. But. But she did kind of play a role in general overseeing things. And Dr. Walla at some point would be bouncing ideas off of her on how to help improve Richard Allen's mental health. So she definitely had a role, but not necessarily a direct one. She was not directly observ. She noted that today is the first time she ever saw him. Right.

[Brad Rosie]

She talked about how people who have mental health issues can find a solitary confinement, or she called it restrictive housing to be damaging. And I think at some point the state might want to consider clearly explaining why Richard Allen was in solitary confinement. I concur because I'm not sure if the jury really gets that. And there have certainly been hints, and we've alluded to it on the show, how people who hurt kids generally are the least popular people in prisons. And he was accused of killing two kids.

[Anya Cain]

And that goes for jails too, by the way.

[Brad Rosie]

Jails too. And we know that there were people, other inmates yelling at him to kill himself or harm himself. And so it would seem like quite likely the reason why they put him in solitary confinement was not because they wanted to be mean, but because they wanted to keep him alive and they felt they needed to take extreme measures to do so. And in fact, the whole reason that Carroll county transferred him from the Carroll county jail to the custody of Indiana Department of Corrections is because they didn't think they could protect him from the other inmates in their jail. Yeah, this is one of the most notorious crimes in Indiana history. And so I would imagine that the person who stands charged with committing it would have a pretty big target on his back.

[Anya Cain]

He would get shived. Let's just be blunt. That's. That's what happens to people who are accused of that or convicted of that. But. And. And unfortunately, it wouldn't matter either way. Keeping him in Carroll county, you'd have a lot of people who are very acutely aware of the case who could possibly harming him. Keeping him in prison. Again, same thing. General population would have, in my opinion, from talking with correctional officers and former inmates and variety of people both on the show and behind the scenes, would have been very dangerous for Richard Allen. It's very unfortunate. But more so than that is the mental health he was Constantly going back and forth on suicide watch. That also complicated things and made things, frankly, more restrictive for him than perhaps otherwise. So it's, it's a bad situation. I, I don't, I mean, I don't have any solutions. I can, I can understand why the defense is, is complaining about it to a certain extent, because it's like, yeah, it sounds awful, but at the same time, I mean, I don't, I don't know what would have been the appropriate thing. It seems like the people, their objective.

[Brad Rosie]

Was to keep him safe and alive. And they did do that, you know.

[Anya Cain]

And yeah, I think basically what she testified to is goal number one, keep the person alive. Goal number two, try to make it as mentally healthy as possible. But that's firmly second place because you cannot work on the mental health of a dead person who's been killed by another inmate. So when it comes to Dr. Walla, this came up early on. She talked about how in early 2022. Do I have that right? Not early 2022, it must be early 2023.

[Brad Rosie]

She said early 2022 and then must have been. And then she said, no, I mean, yeah, it was corrected.

[Anya Cain]

She went. In early 2023, Dr. Walla went to Dr. Dwanger and was advocating for Mr. Allen to have a visit with his wife. She felt that that would be really important. Around this time, she also disclosed that she was a, you know, Walla was very much a True Crime fan. Quote, I knew at that point she had interest, end quote. She even recommended podcasts to Dr. Dwinger and let her know. And so this is where something came up, where Rosie asked her, well, did she tell you that she visited the crime scene? Right. They've made a big deal about Walla visiting crime scene. Dwenger replied, quote, I think she did that prior to knowing she would ever treat someone, someone, you know, connected to this. So, so that was interesting. I think, I think the idea of a, of a, of a mental health professional, like treating someone in a high profile case and then kind of going around to all the, like, big locales and like, kind of exploring it, that might give some people pause, understandably, could feel like, well, maybe you should have more professional distance. But if Dr. Dwenger is clearing up and saying that Dr. Walla visited the Monon High Bridge, like many people interested in the case do, well, before she ever knew she would ever meet Richard Allen, that is a much less big of a deal, in my opinion. Is that fair to. I mean, what do you think?

[Brad Rosie]

That's very Fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

Certainly much less big of a deal. She's not a. She's a psychologist. She's not a psychic. She can't know, hey, I'm gonna meet somebody who's accused of this. And it sounds like she did disclose it to her supervisors. Again, like her looking up Kagan Klein's information in the system seems certainly quite problematic. And people, to say the least. People have mentioned that. And I'm. I'm. I'm not disputing that. I'm just saying some of the other things that the defense has thrown at her, sort of to make her seem like some obsessed True Crime fan, seem a bit unfair when we're getting more details, which is kind of surprising given the fact that this person is the defense's witness. You know, like, they're kind of inviting her up to maybe, like, debunk some of this stuff. I don't even know why at this point. Stacy Diener, who was handling cross examination, called a sidebar, and she wanted to emphasize that the Monon High Bridge was referring to that as the crime scene is not entirely accurate. All the girls were abducted from one end of the Monon High Bridge. They were murdered at a kind of shallow depression on the banks of Deer Creek. So, you know, it's a bit more complicated than. You can't just. That's not the crime scene. It's part of a large swath of area that, you know, that encompasses the crime scene. So Rosie had a layoff of that. We're also introduced to other characters that have come up in the past. Dr. Martin was a psychiatrist at Westville, and he was responsible for dealing with some of this and prescribing medications. As psych psychiatrists prescribe medication, psychologists do more of the therapy style. I'm really boiling it down here, but that's kind of. A psychiatrist is a medical doctor, is an MD So that's kind of the difference.

[Brad Rosie]

Rosie tried to bring up the fact that there have been some lawsuits filed against the Indiana Department of Corrections, and Stacy Deener objected and shut that down, because I believe that that was covered in emotion and eliminate, was it not?

[Anya Cain]

It was. This defense team keeps on, I would say, like, leaping headfirst over the line in a variety of situations, whether it's motions, eliminate, or other things that have been sort of discussed and already adjudicated. And that's just something that they do.

[Brad Rosie]

But you want to talk a bit about Stacy Diener's cross examination?

[Anya Cain]

Let me just look and make sure there's nothing they talked about the different codes of mental health, you know, and Alan was a D, meaning he needed an individual therapist. E would have meant he would be sent to the mental health ward. She said that she didn't think that safe, quote, we have safekeepers regularly. She didn't seem to think it was as rare as the defense was acting like and indicated that the. She's aware of nine safekeepers, although, you know, they're obviously Richard Allen is in fairness, occupying a pretty unique position. And in quote, they come to us because the jail can't manage them, end quote. It's again, seemed like a lot of the. With she wasn't like opinionated or kind of fighting back against the defense. It just seemed like a lot of the stuff she was saying was ultimately better for the prosecution.

[Brad Rosie]

Right, and we see more of that in the juror questions.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we, we definitely will. She did say that she had concern about the cameras. She even recommended cameras be removed.

[Brad Rosie]

You mean what cameras are you referring.

[Anya Cain]

To the cameras in his cell.

[Brad Rosie]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Which don't record audio but just video. She felt like someone who was dealing with depression might feel like really watched by that. But that wasn't done. That's a safety measure to, you know, basically be able to watch him and make sure he doesn't start doing anything to himself. So it's not surprising to me. And yeah, cross, real quick. Yeah, let's, let's do cross.

[Brad Rosie]

Cross. Stacy Diener. She establishes that when Richard Allen arrived at Westville, he was not seriously mentally ill. In April of 2023, Monica Walla actually contacted this witness to advocate for Richard Allen receiving a face to face visit with his wife. Dr. Walla also told her that she suspected Richard Allen was faking his symptoms. She also talked about how even if he was faking his s. His symptoms, he was suffering consequences from that that ultimately made it difficult to find much of a difference between. It almost no longer mattered if it was fake or real, for instance, because if you're not eating and not sleeping as part of faking something, at some point, the effects of not eating and not sleeping even as part of your ruse are going to harm you.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, he was deteriorating no matter what. And yeah, quote, whether he had chosen not to sleep or chosen not, not to, not to eat, those behaviors would affect his mental health. So essentially, as Dr. Wallace said in her testimony, it didn't matter if he was feigning, they needed to intervene. And that meant Hal Doll and she. This is a medication that they were using. She actually went into it. She has herself, has experience at One of the mental health facilities from the state at Newcastle and talked about quote, haldol is used very frequently with people who have psychosis. And she went in helpful detail to like Hal Dol is like something that is meant to target symptoms. She gave the example of if somebody's not who has psychosis is not showering because they have a pro a persecutorial belief that the prison guards are going to put poison in the shower head and kill them. Hal doll can basically calm them down and maybe get them to take the shower so that their basic needs are being met a bit more. And then it can also occasionally help with sleep although that kind of is dependent on the person. Rosie redirects then and he tried to bring up the lawsuit again and it didn't.

[Brad Rosie]

It got my notes sidebar. I just wrote Diener defangs defense with lots of well timed objections.

[Anya Cain]

I love that alliteration. Hey, you're good.

[Brad Rosie]

Before we get to the jury questions I want to mention something else that for me with a lot of these witnesses it's a case of the dog that doesn't bark. Because if I was a member of this jury and I was looking for reasonable doubt, what I would want to see in witnesses is I would want to see them discuss reasons why Richard Allen was not the killer. I would want to see reasons why Richard Allen was not the man on the bridge. And they are studiously avoiding that topic altogether. Instead they're talking about, oh, somebody was at the bridge an hour later. They didn't see anything. Oh, someone was in the neighborhood five hours earlier. They saw a fella. So they're not really addressing the heart of the matter, which is to me is was he that man on the bridge?

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Brad Rosie]

And for me that's the dog that doesn't bark. By which I mean the fact that they are not addressing that makes me think maybe they can't.

[Anya Cain]

Where was he that day? If he wasn't, I mean like if they're saying he showed up at the bridge at the wrong time and left early, where was he the rest of the day was someone did some how where. I mean is his mom going to testify about what he was doing that morning when he came to visit her? Was he in a good mood? Did he seem fine? I mean, or was something going on?

[Brad Rosie]

Let's talk about if I was, if I was on this jury, I would want them to talk about Richard Allen. February 13, 2017 this is all matching pre trial.

[Anya Cain]

Pre trial it was. Who's Richard Allen? Let's Talk about Odinism. Who's Richard Allen? Let's talk about Kagan Klein. They don't want to talk about.

[Brad Rosie]

And I suggest respectfully, there must be a reason for that.

[Anya Cain]

There obviously is.

[Brad Rosie]

And I want to say this now because we're going to get into jury questions.

[Anya Cain]

And can I just say Diener, Diener really did very well today with this, with the jury questions.

[Brad Rosie]

Yes. And ultimately, after these jury questions, people were going around saying, oh, my God, that was a great witness for the prosecution. Tell us about the jury questions, Anya.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I just really want to commend Stacy Diener. She really has a, I like her style. She has a very like kind of calm, calm kind of way of asking questions, posing questions. But in this, she was like, I was like, oh, man, she's on a roll here. So. Well, question number one. Does the Indiana Department of Correction ever place safekeepers in general population? Dr. Dwenger said with, I can't really read my handwriting here. Do you remember what she said? What prevent. Oh, yeah, yes, they do. They, I, I, I had written it in like a corner that that's my bad. It's not even just I have bad handwriting. Like my writing is in places I'm not expecting. And then Deener said, what prevented that with Richard Allen? And you know, that that was sort of his behavior.

[Brad Rosie]

Next question. Could it be that Richard Allen was faking sis. Could it be that Richard Allen was faking symptoms so he wouldn't be moved to general population because he feared harm? And the answer was, yes, I've seen that sort of thing.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And then also, yeah, I think they asked her if she'd ever actually like, kind of treated him yourself, that maybe that was in there.

[Brad Rosie]

She never visited Westville.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Brad Rosie]

She would now hit us with this question. The, the next question, I, I believe is when faking mental health issues, could a person slip truths in.

[Anya Cain]

And this is Dr. Dwenger's eyes almost lit up. She's like, that's a really interesting question. Like, I've never gotten that question before. And I was like, oh, here we go. And at first, like, the way the question was phrased was honestly a little bit confusing because it was like, wait, if a person is faking, can they slip in truths? Huh?

[Brad Rosie]

But, but got to a very interesting place.

[Anya Cain]

Diener used it to her advantage. And basically what she was after mulling it over a bit, Dwenger kind of came out with like, yeah. And she basically said that sometimes a psychotic person, it's complicated because somebody, somebody, sometimes somebody in psychosis will actually be telling the truth about what happened. And then other times they won't. It's, it's, it's just, it's just ramblings. And Deener asked as a follow up, if a person makes statements, what would you look for in terms of determining whether the statements are because of reality and they're speaking the truth or because of some sort of mental health issues? And I was like, oh, man. Game on, Game on. Meanwhile, keep in mind, right before this, Rosie had passed on the question. Like, passed on questions. He was like, no questions. And then she comes in. I'm like, oh, man. So she talks. Dwanger talked about how people who are psychotic will, like, detach from reality. And she said it's often helpful to listen to your body language when you're trying to assess whether or not someone is faking or feigning or being truthful about being psychotic. Questions like, you know, she kind of used an analogy of if somebody says, oh, I went to the grocery store and then I bought some cans of, I bought some boxes of cereal and then I put them in, in the cart and then I took them out and I, I went home. You know, that's very, that's a linear story. You know, I'm kind of just going through chronologically and telling you logically what happened. But if I'm suddenly. Her example was like, if you have someone who's saying, yes, I went to the grocery store and then I saw someone who looked like my mom. And then, you know, my mom was like, it's almost like it's disorganized thoughts. You're looking at the organization, the logic. And she also noted a lot of psychotic episodes boil down to several different themes. She named five themes. There could be more, but these were ones that were very common. So the first is persecutory themes. This is as if, like the, the FBI has put microphones in my house to spy on me and they're coming to get me and then they're going to do something bad to me. Everyone's out to get me, that kind of thing. Two is hypersexuality, which is when someone's like, I am just such a God's gift to humanity. Everyone wants to make love to me, and, you know, that's why I have to have a million babies. Three is religiosity, which isn't just being very into religion. It's like literally like, hi, I'm Joan of Arc reincarnated here to free France. You're welcome, everybody. Let's do it. Four, jealousy that's self evident, you know, with, with a partner or whatnot. And five is command. That's when it's like the TV told me to go steal cereal, right? You know, the, the guy on the TV is God. And he's telling me, he's giving me the directions and that's why I'm doing this. So when she said, when someone is in a psychotic state, you know, this loose association kind of sudden changes. And oftentimes it goes back to some of those themes as part, you know, like I, you know, I killed them and I'm also Joan of Arc, and that's why I killed them. And then I went and did this and da, da, da. And yeah, I mean, it was one of those things where I could almost like you could see it sort of chipping away because just the other day we had heard all these confessions from Richard Allen and none of them sounded anything like that.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, they all sounded very organized. And by Dr. This witnesses standards, they didn't sound like psychosis.

[Anya Cain]

They were cogent, they were logical. He wasn't flitting off into other topics. He'd say, I did it. And they'd be like, no, you didn't. He's like, kind of, you need to hear me. Yes, I did. And they weren't detailed, but they were certainly not what we're being told would be something that would be indicative of a psychotic episode. And then they talked about, you know, delusions. Delusions, quote, delusions are things you think are not real. Delusions are things you think that are not reality based. Rosie cut in at some point and said he wanted to ask some questions here. He already passed on it. And then Diener's like going nuts with this whole thing. And so then he has to kind of come back in and said, basically, what about delirium? So delirium Dwanger defined as psychosis when you get caused by a medical issue. She used the example of sometimes an older person gets some sort of medical issue and they get to the hospital and they're totally psychotic because of this medical issue. It's not an underlying mental health thing necessarily, but it's like. And. And then Dwenger noted that Richard Allen was assessed medically to ensure that he would. Was not dealing with delirium and therefore psychosis due to a medical issue. Rosie seemed like not to be aware of that really, which was kind of surprising because, like, there's a lot of questions that are being asked that I don't think the defense knows the answer. To which is kind of not a great thing, or at least they don't seem to know the answer to. Because they're setting up like layups for the prosecution.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, we'll get more into this. It feels to me that the defense was not prepared for this trial.

[Anya Cain]

But he basically, they. Dwanger said that they. They assessed him medically. They had a whole team devoted to like, dealing with his care and they found that he was not dealing with delirium. He did not have some medical issue that was leading him to say these things or be psychotic. Anyways, then more. Some. Some lesser, less dramatic questions. You know, the typical process of Safekeeper, they kind of went over and sort of what's the primary obligation of safekeepers and of the. Of Indiana Department of Correction dealing with safekeepers. And what Dwenger said was, keep them safe. That's number one. Keep them safe, keep them alive, keep them away from harm. And that. That certainly fits the solitary confinement, as harsh as that is. I will say, interestingly enough, at one point she mentioned that with solitary confinement. It's not clear. She said it's not clear. Based on the research. Sometimes some research indicates that it's strongly, strongly detrimental to anyone's mental health and it's just really bad. But there's been also some. That kind of doesn't necessarily always find for everyone a difference between that kind of incarceration versus being more in gen pop. Did you catch that when she talked about studies? Yeah, but it's kind of maybe. Maybe needs more research. I think it sounds like, you know, something that could maybe affect different people differently. But I also think it does sound very. Something that would really wear on you mentally. So, I mean, I can. I can understand why it would affect people very negatively, mental health wise.

[Brad Rosie]

Ready to move on to the next witness?

[Anya Cain]

Well, there was a break, right.

[Brad Rosie]

There was a break and then there was.

[Anya Cain]

Do you want to talk about what happened during the break?

[Brad Rosie]

What happened during the break?

[Anya Cain]

The pointing.

[Brad Rosie]

Oh, this was the pointing. Was this the pointing?

[Anya Cain]

This was the pointing.

[Brad Rosie]

So there was. I. I completely for. It's been a long day, ladies and gentlemen. So this is just. This is an odd incident. Take of it what you will. So there was a break. Anya and I were in towards the back of the courtroom standing, and we were talking to a couple of very nice ladies. And Anya is. She often does. She carries on the bulk of the conversation. She carries that burden while I just kind of relax. And I noticed something Anya doesn't notice, which is that Richard Allen is staring intently at us. And so my reaction to that is I just stare right back at him. I maintain eye contact with him until he turns away, and then I pay attention to the conversation. And then something makes me look, and Richard Allen is standing next to Andrew Baldwin. And Richard Allen appears to be pointing straight at Anya and myself. And I called it to your attention.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I didn't notice at all. As usual, oblivious. It was. It was odd, but I don't know what to make of that. Maybe he was just like, who are these people?

[Brad Rosie]

But maybe he wasn't even pointing out.

[Anya Cain]

He might have been pointing at. Who knows? I think he was pointing at us. But it's. There's. There's always a possibility that he was pointing at someone else. But the courtroom was not super full at that point.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, it's an odd incident.

[Anya Cain]

A little bit odd. Yeah. No, actually, it was. It was odd.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah. A little bit odd. So what would be a lot odd?

[Anya Cain]

No, I didn't. I was like, okay. I mean, he stared. He stared at us. And then we know. I mean, I feel like everyone who's been at court a lot has a, oh, yeah, he was staring at me story at this point, but I've never seen him point at anyone before.

[Brad Rosie]

It was the first pointee, so that's fun.

[Anya Cain]

Next up for the defense.

[Brad Rosie]

This witness ended up taking quite a bit of time, but I think I can breeze through it pretty quickly because there's not a lot of substance.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Brad Rosie]

So this next witness is a young man named Max Baker. He just graduated from IU with a bachelor's, and he works as a legal assistant for none other than Brad Rosie. And he kind of said that he is their equivalent of Brian Harshman, by which they mean that he's the guy that's listening to all of Richard Allen's phone calls and watching all of Richard Allen's videos and stuff. And that is interesting to me. I'll say this quickly because they acted like it was such a huge violation for Brian Harshman to be doing this, and they have a guy doing it, too, but let's just let that go.

[Anya Cain]

Can I just say, though, I mean, he's an intern for this legal team. How cool would it be to be, like, just out of college and working on such a huge trial? Like, Right. I mean, like, wow, what an experience. I mean, I just. I was just thinking about it from that perspective, too. Like, that must be pretty interesting. And, like, you're kind of coming right out of the gate with. With some.

[Brad Rosie]

He's been working for Rosie For a couple years.

[Anya Cain]

I know. And I'm just like, I mean, yeah, that's. I mean, I think that's kind of neat. But anyway, let's go.

[Brad Rosie]

So he is their tape guy. And so he prepared some sort of tape compilation of, I guess, Richard Allen's greatest hits from Westville that the defense wanted to show. And this was going to be partially taken from camcorder footage, which would be when Richard Allen was being moved from his cell to another location, like a shower or whatever, or to wreck. They would tape him with a camcorder, and it would also include some security cam footage from inside his cell. The camcorder footage has audio, and the security cam foot footage from inside the cell does not. At this point, there is. Oh, he mentions that. Oh, by the way, some of these videos are condensed or they're sped up at this point. There's lots of objections and sidebars and there's legal arguments that we are not privy to. But the end result of those legal arguments appears to be that the camcorder footage. Well, it appears to be that the cell. The incel footage is not going to be shown, but the camcorder footage is only without audio.

[Anya Cain]

That's my understanding. That's what I have in my notes. Apologies if we have these confused, but I'm pretty sure camcorder, when he's being recorded and being moved to, like, the showers or whatnot, is in sans audio and in cell is out.

[Brad Rosie]

And there was a further restriction. The judge says only footage taken from April, May, June of 2023 can be shown to the jury.

[Anya Cain]

Which is. Which is when he was at his worst.

[Brad Rosie]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Mentally seem seemingly the most symptomatic time for Richard Allen. The most. The time where he's really acting out. I just want to also note that Kathy Allen, as well as Richard Allen's sister, who were there today, they left.

[Brad Rosie]

Prior to this witness.

[Anya Cain]

They left prior to this witness.

[Brad Rosie]

So let me say what happens next. So only footage from April, May, June and July can be shown. And so prosecutor Nick McLean says, Let me ask some preliminary questions. And basically he asked, how do we know that these videos you're going to be showing has actually come from those months? And Max said, well, you know, they were in folders that seemed to have those months listed on them. And so at that point, Judge Go had the jury leave. And she says, said, I'm paraphrasing here. She. She indicated, I only said videos from certain days can be shown. And now you say you have no idea what the dates are. Other than the fact that they might be in a random folder, that's not good enough. The defense's defense says, well, we'll look at file names and maybe we can figure something out. And the judge said, well, don't do it now. Do it later, because we've. We really need to use our time wisely and work on that later. I want to get us back to having witnesses. And so that was the end of that witness.

[Anya Cain]

I imagine we'll probably see more from Mr. Baker to, like, soon. I'm like, I imagine they'll be able to put something together with those clips and whatnot. But, yeah, it was, you know, I mean, can you. Can you, like. I guess, like, people at home, lay people might be like, well, that. You know, that seems persnickety. And, like, why would they. Why would they make them redo that? Is there, like, can you explain, like, legally, why, like, stuff like that is important to, like, narrow down and be certain when it's from.

[Brad Rosie]

If you're showing something that if you're saying, oh, in April this was happening and this video proves it, then it's important that that video actually be from April.

[Anya Cain]

Right. There's no, like, oopsies in court. It's not like, something where it's like, oh, well, you know, actually that turned out to be from November. Like, you. You have to kind of lock it down. And what the defense was saying is like, well, we didn't get the videos in an organized fashion, so we couldn't do that. But, like, I think it's just one of those things that I think you'd expect it to be kind of locked down, I guess.

[Brad Rosie]

So let's move on to the next witness. This is Brad Heath. And I want to highlight the beginning of this, because the beginning of this contained a moment where I think Brad Rosie got the best response, not only from the jury, but from the whole courtroom that I've seen him get in this trial so far.

[Anya Cain]

It was good.

[Brad Rosie]

So he starts. Brad Heath is the witness. And Brad Rosie starts asking him some questions about what he does for a living, what he used to do for a living. And he's interrupted because a juror is having a really bad coughing attack. And it just keeps going on and on to the extent that Judge Go is concerned. And she interrupts testimony. Rosie offers the juror an unopened bottle of water. And then he also says, well, you know, we also have about 20 cops in here who do know the Heimlich. And he says that everybody cracks up. He looks very Very pleased.

[Anya Cain]

That was a good one. You know, he, He. He did well there. It was very charming. He was taking care of the jurors, and I thought that was a good win for him, for sure. Absolutely. I know we've said he kind of seemed to kind of a rocky start with them in Wadir, but I think that was a. A moment that was a bit humanizing and humorous.

[Brad Rosie]

So we've been critical of him. So I wanted to highlight.

[Anya Cain]

No shout out. That was good comedic timing. And, and you know, that, that was. That was. Got to give a hat tip. You know what I mean? Also, so many Brads in this case.

[Brad Rosie]

There were so many Brads in this case.

[Anya Cain]

So Brad Heath.

[Brad Rosie]

Brad Heath is retired. He worked with reliable exterminators, and his job involved driving a regular route from Delphi to logansport.

[Anya Cain]

And he's 70 years old now.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah. And this route took him in the general vicinity of the Monon high bridge on February 13, 2017. There was a building there they had to check some stuff out in. And he's driving through and he happened to see parked on the street at a building not far from the Monon High Bridge, not far from the CPS building either. I believe on the street he sees a vehicle parked at 8:45. He also sees it parked there still in the afternoon. It's a Park about 2ft off the road. It is an older vehicle. It is dark blue. To him, for some reason, it looked out of place. He. He wouldn't expect to see someone park their car like that in the morning and have it still be there in the afternoon. He said later he watched the Harrison Ford film the Fugitive.

[Anya Cain]

Great film.

[Brad Rosie]

And the car that Tommy Lee Jones was driving was a good match for this car he saw.

[Anya Cain]

Did he say Bobby Lee Jones by accident, or did I mishear that?

[Brad Rosie]

I think you misheard that.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. I mean, I know I knew it was Tommy Lee Jones, but I thought at first, I mean, he said Bobby. But anyway, sorry. Sorry to Mr. Heath. I'm sure it was just me mishearing him. And if you're wondering, well, what's the relevance of this?

[Brad Rosie]

What is the relevance of this?

[Anya Cain]

I don't know.

[Brad Rosie]

Was Stacy Diener, in her cross examination, she said, well, for clarity, this car you saw was not actually parked at the CPS lot, was it? And. And he says, that's correct. So basically, he saw a car parked.

[Anya Cain]

On the street, just like how Teresa Libert saw a man near a mailbox. Wow.

[Brad Rosie]

And it was parked there for an extended period of time, starting early in the morning, at least as early as 8:45. I often see cars on the street.

[Anya Cain]

I, I don't know.

[Brad Rosie]

I, I know sometimes I've had my car parked on the street for an extended time if I have like a flat tire or something. Yeah, but, but there's no, there's no connection between this and the murder.

[Anya Cain]

And it's, and to be clear, when we're, when we're criticizing a witness like this, it's not, we're not criticizing Mr. Heath. Obviously he had data, he brought it to the law enforcement as, as is proper given a situation like this. And he's been helpful and he's, he's telling the truth to the jury. And that's. None of the witnesses are at fault here. The who's at fault when you have witnesses who are not adding anything are the attorneys who are calling them. Because it's like, what does this add? And I'm going to tell you, he made it very clear when, when Diener asked him, did you see cars in the CPS parking lot? He said, quote, there could have been, but I wasn't paying attention. Quote, I can't say there was. I can't say there wasn't. I didn't see anything because I just wasn't paying attention, end quote. So he's, he's saying that like, I brought this car. That was the thing that stood out to me. Here you go. But the other information that could be relevant, I don't have.

[Brad Rosie]

I think his testimony would have made an incredible Reddit post in 2019.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, well, you could say that about maybe most of the witnesses today. And here's the problem again, it's not about Mr. Heath. He's, he did the right thing and, and he's, he's being asked and subpoenaed into this. And so these witnesses are just, they tried to help and whatnot. But like, it doesn't matter that he saw a blue car. It just doesn't matter. And especially doesn't matter since, you know, it wasn't in the relevant place. I don't know, what are they? I mean, like, like what does it even. And what, like they're just, I think it's just to try to confuse the jury at this point, something like this, because I don't know what else it adds. It certainly doesn't really seem to add anything. And they didn't really connect it to whatever their theory is supposed to be. Yeah, like there's a car and a person in the morning that day. Wow. Like a car And a person in Delphi really, like, I'm just.

[Brad Rosie]

At least it. At this point, it feels like these witnesses are weak and it feels like they're making the defense, this case look weak. And if this is the best they can do, maybe they would have been better off just resting their case, not presenting anything.

[Anya Cain]

Actually, when we were talking to Susan Hendrick the other day, she's the author of down the Hill, which is a great book on the deli murder. She even kind of threw that out there. Like, what. What if they just rested? Like, almost like did the state really prove it? And I, you know, that could have been a powerful statement. I think a powerful statement could have been calling a few expert witnesses to kind of deal with some things like around mental health and maybe the bullet and then resting just like, boom, boom, boom, done. Like, that could have been powerful. And this adds nothing. And. And it seems like the prosecution is just kind of very like again and again, just sort of like kind of just swatting this down like an effortless, like. Dean, you're just like, did you see any. So this wasn't parked at cps, right? No. Okay. No further questions. No jury questions on this one either.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah. Next witness is presented by Andrew Baldwin. This is David McCain, very familiar with Millennial Highbridge. He says he works with community projects. He was a project manager for development of the trail. He lives just north Delphi. He is 79 years old. Is that correct? Wow. Very healthy looking man for that age.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And he. I just want to say, like, I mean, with him and with all these witnesses, my heart goes out to them that they've kind of like been dragged into this, like Heath and him and others. But he was, you know, like, it was, it was adorable. Like he was like talking about like, he just likes to go out and like photograph things and like is into conservation. And I was like, just like, that's a really, that's a really cool thing. So like just good for him, you know what I mean? Like, I felt like some of the stuff he was talking about was like, he's into the history of the area. And I'm like, I can definitely relate to that. So I just, I feel bad that all these people were just kind of going about their day, doing their jobs or having. Enjoying a nice time and they got like sucked into this just awful meer situation. Just, you know, you think about the.

[Brad Rosie]

Original crime of the trial, both. So on February 13, 2017, Mr. McCain was on the trail. And the one on Highbridge that day, he's not sure when exactly he got to the trails. He estimated it was between 2 and 4pm he would usually park at the Mirror's entrance. He thinks he's probably got there between two and three when he parked. He doesn't remember seeing any other cars there. He walked towards the Monon High Bridge. He took some pictures. He went on the Monon High Bridge. He talked about when you were on the first platform, you are actually over the water and you can see in the water and sometimes you can see rocks. And of course, Baldwin at that point asked, can you see fish? And the witness said, I don't know about that. What's the reason for that question?

[Anya Cain]

Anya Allen's story, or one of his stories is that he was on the first platform of the bridge watching fish below. And you know, I. This is where I was kind of like, okay, if Baldwin had deposed him and like got him to say, yeah, you can see fish. I look at fish all the time, then that would be a nice little zinger to be like, yeah, see, you can see fish. It's not crazy, but it's like, I don't like. It's almost like seeing choreography that kind of like doesn't quite work out because it's like, I don't know. I don't know. I've never seen fish. It's like, okay, that's less than ideal.

[Brad Rosie]

He said he wouldn't have been there if it wasn't such a nice day. He took pictures with a digital camera. Walk estimates he was on the bridge for less than 30 minutes. Walking from the bridge back towards his vehicle, he saw a couple, a man and a woman approaching the the Monon High Bridge. He vaguely recalls they might have seen some other people in the distance. He left before 4pm when he got to his car at the Mir's lot, he was surprised by the number of people and vehicles there. At some point he. A man asks him or calls out to him, did you see two girls that have gone missing?

[Anya Cain]

He consistently, in response to questions, in response to Baldwin's questions, would say things like, quote, I'm not sure. That was seven years ago now. Yeah, end quote. He, he was honest about saying, I don't really remember some of these things and that some of his recollection is vague. Also, I want to point out. Let's link this back to yesterday's episode which included Cheyenne Mill. Another witness who described seeing a man with a camera. With a camera.

[Brad Rosie]

It's David McCain.

[Anya Cain]

Sound familiar?

[Brad Rosie]

He. Once he finds out what happened, he does let law enforcement Know, they come and interview him. They took. They take the SIM card with his photos. A couple of years later, they come to him and say, it looks like there's a passing car in the back of one of these pictures. Do you recognize it? And he says, no. So, again, this is very similar to the Cheyenne testimony in which we have a witness who was there after the crime was committed and noticed nothing relevant to the crime itself.

[Anya Cain]

Can I also just say there was almost a moment where I'm like, this could turn it around for Baldwin. Here we go. When Baldwin asked him, which way did you leave down 300 north. Because if he's leaving around 4, there's the possibility that he could. If he goes a certain way, he could run into muddy, bloody man that Sarah Carbaugh saw. Was that what you were thinking at one point? Like, wow, he could. He could be there. And this is how he responded. Quote, I don't know exactly what I did that day, end quote. I could have gone either way. I didn't see any pedestrians. But I can't even tell you, even when I'm looking at the map, which way I drew drove that day. He. Yeah, he. He even was confused about the mention of the CPS building. And again, like, some people might call it different things, but it's just. It's just a matter of this. This really did nothing for the defense. And it frankly made them look desperate, in my opinion. I mean. I mean, like, I don't know.

[Brad Rosie]

I. Gosh, I thought there was an interesting moment in the Cross. The Cross is by James Luttrell. L. And this gentleman asked the witness, you know, you did an interview with the FBI. They took notes. Can I show you those notes to refresh your recollections? And I found it very, very interesting that the defense did not want the witness to see the notes. And Andy Baldwin says, well, we don't know if the FBI or officer who took these notes actually provided accurate details about what was said.

[Anya Cain]

How ironic.

[Brad Rosie]

And that is crucial because earlier they're arguing that the FB agent took accurate notes and details of the Weber interview. So they're all over the place.

[Anya Cain]

Also, the FBI is like the saviors of this case who were booted out by the evil consortium of the ISP and the Carol county people and all this stuff. So it's like, you know, is the FBI the golden standard here or isn't it? I felt bad that he. McCain said the FBI took his SD card years ago and said they were going to give it back, and then they never Did. So I think they should give that back. That's just an idle thought, but, you know, I thought Latrell Luttrell was very, very respectful and polite as he has been to all these.

[Brad Rosie]

He always is.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Brad Rosie]

And I, I note that after this gentleman, Ms. McCain reviewed the, the notes from the FBI, some small details of the story changed a bit. He indicated that he now believes he left at 4 and arrived about 3pm Him. And again, as he was about to leave, he heard a man shouting in his direction. He described it as a large man in an orange jacket who was portly, yelling, have you ever. Have you seen two girls? He feels that he arrived probably maybe even as late as 3:15pm or maybe it could have been as early as 2:30. He said, I wasn't paying any attention to the time.

[Anya Cain]

And so if he's getting there three, 3:15, he's too late to see anything by the state's theory, which is that essentially the phone of Liberty German's phone stops moving at 2:32pm permanently. And then we can presume that the girls are killed, at the very least very shortly after that. And the phone ends up underneath Abby's body. And, you know, I mean, that's it. Now, the defense has contended that the phone stopped moving because it was in a vehicle. So you can imagine that at 2:32, if it stops moving, then it's in a vehicle. So by their own convoluted theory, it's also gone. So, like, why are we having all this stuff from people who were there at 3pm when that means nothing?

[Brad Rosie]

Yes, they're there after the crime has been committed, whether you believe that crime is murder or kidnapping. And they, they don't notice anything that is relevant to the solution of the crime.

[Anya Cain]

It does nothing.

[Brad Rosie]

And they're lovely people, I'm sure.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, it's not their fault. It's nothing against. It's not, it's not their fault. They, again, these people all said, hey, hey, here's what happened, here's what I saw. And that's good data for law enforcement to have because they're saying, I saw nothing, essentially. Also, the man who kind of was calling for the girls is obviously Derek German, in case you were wondering. That's pretty clear. But you know, Baldwin's direct was pretty basic. Well, could you have been longer than an hour, shorter than an hour? He said he doesn't. He, he thought maybe it was longer than an hour, but he wasn't sure and then didn't remember names of the people who interviewed him? Was that it?

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, basically.

[Anya Cain]

And then again, tellingly, Lel, no follow up questions, no jury questions.

[Brad Rosie]

After the redirect.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, yeah. You know, but it was just like, again, like they're dragging all these people into it. They add nothing. They don't have any relevant information for either theory. Do you think the goal is to just confuse the jury?

[Brad Rosie]

I don't know what the goal is. As I've indicated, the stuff about not knowing that, the times of the videos, some of this other stuff, it just feels to me like they are not as prepared as they should have been for this trial. It looks like, I mean, I don't mean to be unkind, but it looks like they went on Reddit in 2019 and just grabbed some posts and said, let's make a case out of it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, these would be like the hottest posts on Delphi Reddit a few years ago.

[Brad Rosie]

2019.

[Anya Cain]

2019. People would be salivating. Wow. You know, we really heard from David McCain and it's like, yeah, but, you know, this is the real world and it has to be relevant to the trial. It's just, it was a, it was a bad day for the defense. I mean, like, it doesn't get better from here, folks.

[Brad Rosie]

Next witness is Daryl Sterett. And I want to admit my bias. I like this guy. He is a volunteer fire chief or former volunteer fire chief. And as you probably don't know, but I don't think I mentioned it, my father is a volunteer fireman and my grandfather actually founded the volunteer fire department in my hometown.

[Anya Cain]

Very cool.

[Brad Rosie]

And also a week or so at the trial in the afternoon, you weren't there. I had a lovely conversation with a charming woman who is also a volunteer fireman. So I like volunteer firemen. That's what I'm saying here.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, we love them and we, we appreciate what they're doing. And, and so he was, you know, he kind of explained his background. Born and raised in Deli and he.

[Brad Rosie]

Was 36 years with the fire department, rising to fire chief. He served in that capacity from 2009 up to 2020 or 2021. And he was the fire chief in 2017. And this, this examination of the fire chief wandered all over the place and really looked directionless. Yeah, for a big chunk of it. So on February 13, 2017, Chief Starrett is reviewing bids for a new fire station starting at 9am I figured that might take him to three or four. He's back at the station in the evening for training. They have some sort of CPR Training for the firemen so the firemen can learn how to perform CPR in emergency situations. They learn that there's two girls missing and that the fire department is. Wanted to go and help with that. So they go to the sheriff's department, and they. They. They start organizing some kind of a.

[Anya Cain]

Search Joint incident command. Yeah, and then he believes that Tobe Lesnie, the then sheriff, and Steve Mullen, the Delphi police chief at the time, sort of the ones in charge, and, you know, they're just eager to help them. They believe at this point that, you know, he. He's not sure what, like, they're getting tips from dispatch, and there's possibilities where they're, like, sending out firefighters to look at, like, like, okay, maybe one of Libby and Abby's friends might know where they are. They mentioned there was, like, a basketball game in town that night. Like, could they be there? No one's immediately jumping to abduction, murder.

[Brad Rosie]

And I mean, the level of unnecessary detail. There's. There's a report or a piece of paper that has a list of the people who were at the fire station that night. And Baldwin says, well, how would. How would people get notified of an emergency if they were fired? And. And they said, well, probably over a dispatch, perhaps, but this time that wasn't necessary because they were there for the training exercise. Well, when you went out there to search, where did you park? I mean, this just went on and on. He said that he thought the girls. The fire chief said at this time in the evening, he thought the girls might be hunkered down somewhere cold and scared and waiting for help.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Which also is. That is important to note because it determined the type of search they were doing. So when you're looking for, like. I know. I mean, I. I vaguely remember from lifeguarding, if we were, like, looking in the water for, like, a body, you're trained to kind of almost like. Like link up and. And kind of almost form a grid and be walking together to see if anyone basically, like, steps on something and in the water. And so. But here they're looking for two living girls who maybe one of them trips and breaks an ankle, and then the other one won't leave them. And they're, like. They're huddled up, and it's really cold, and so they're. They're kind of running around yelling, you know, and it may be a little bit more organized than that, but it's like they're yelling their names. Hey. You know, like, they're expecting someone to be, like, calling back Potentially there were.

[Brad Rosie]

Some civilians helping out and then there were some lights used. Baldwin spent a lot of time freaking floodlights. He said, oh, were there floodlights? You know, like, they, like floodlights like there are at the Hollywood movie premieres. It just went. It was endless. He said people were looking in the water.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I mean, like, like. But there was a lot of, like, Baldwin kept on trying to tee him up for things and like, that were seemingly in a deposition he did. And then he'd be like, he wouldn't really quite remember it or we wouldn't remember the thing. Baldwin wanted to remember him. So then there was a lot of, like, checking things. Things. And it was a lot of like, assigned reading. Whereas I turned to this page and, you know, like. And it was just like, oh, God, this is endless. And the lights were one of those things. And, and what he was saying is, like, it almost was like, Baldwin would be like, oh, were people looking in the water with the, with their, with their, their lights? And he'd be like, well, in my group I can speak to what was going on. And he went out with like, I think like maybe five or six other firefighters. But like, he couldn't speak to everyone doing the search. He's just with one group. And he said occasionally they'd be doing that and then at other times not.

[Brad Rosie]

And Baldwin said, oh, did you guys see any clothes in the water? And of course they didn't. And so I, I think that is one of the points. I think, I think, I think that that is one of the points Baldwin wanted to make because their theory is the girls were still alive at this time.

[Anya Cain]

I guess my.

[Brad Rosie]

And so if, if they weren't alive and clothes were in the creek, wouldn't they have noticed that with their flashlights? I think that's what he was trying to say.

[Anya Cain]

What's your thought about that argument? Given that it was very dark out? I mean, at this time we're talking, it's after 9pm Right?

[Brad Rosie]

It's very dark. It's after 9pm they were there until, I think 2:30am I don't know what time they were looking into the water. It's dark under there, even with lights. If the clothing, if the clothing was then where it was found, it was tangled up on like, rocks and stuff, I think underneath the bridge. And even in daytime it was difficult for the searchers to find. So I don't really think it means anything.

[Anya Cain]

I don't know if it was directly under the bridge, but I, I completely agree with you. It, it's not a good point.

[Brad Rosie]

And I, I think he also wanted. He, he was trying to get the fire chief to say that he searched the area where the bodies were later found and did not see the bodies, which would support his theory. Street. But the fire chief made it pretty clear that he did not search the area where the bodies were found that night. Yes. And that the priority was to. They feared that something had happened to the girls. They'd been swept downstream. So that's where they were looking. And they were not looking in the area where they were ultimately found to have been horribly murdered. So this, how long do you think this direct examination went on? It felt like a very long time.

[Anya Cain]

A year. I mean, he talked about how like, he and the other people in his kind of group were very far apart. Like one, one guy might be 10ft ahead of him walking through brush, you know, and it, it just like, even if they were, like, for all these searchers, imagine this. You're. You're in this situation. You. Your, your flashlight or your lantern is lighting a little bit ahead of you, and you can see things to a certain extent, but you're in brush, it's very cold out, there's a bunch of other people running around. They're calling for the girls. You know, this is not exactly, given how dark it is, conducive to finding the bodies or finding clues like the clothing. It. And I can see people missing that even if they get close or even if they're kind of in the right area. I mean, we heard from previous testimony from searchers that people were, you know, deputies were coming up to the bodies and missing them because they were in a shallow depression and that's in daylight. And they were having to be told, hey, look over there. And then they see them. So it's like, like whatever point they're trying to make when, like, I just don't think that's common sense.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Like saying, like, if you have like, evidence documenting that the, the firefighters were in the shallow depression at 7am when it's light out, and then they went somewhere else and they came back and the bodies were there. Bingo. You've got a really good point to make here. But like, I don't think we were over there. It was very dark, and we were all searching for either possible accidental fall drowning situation victims or kids who got lost or hurt and are alive. It just doesn't appeal to my. It doesn't appeal to, like, rationality or anything.

[Brad Rosie]

And again, doesn't really address the central issue of whether or Not Richard Allen was the man on the bridge. I have in my notes, Nick McLean had no question questions.

[Anya Cain]

Again, that's like kind of a diss, right? I mean, like, you. Like if, like a cross examination is like an opportunity to clean something up, you know, it's like the, okay, let me clean this up and kind of get my points in for the jury. When you're basically not doing that, you're saying what you've put out there isn't even worth responding to. And no one buys it.

[Brad Rosie]

Juror questions. As Anya mentioned, at many points during this long, direct examination, he would ask the question, and he would not get the answer he expected. And so he would say to Chief, former Chief Sterett, I'm going to show you a page of the deposition to reflect, to refresh your recollection. And so a juror said, well, how long ago was this deposition given and was the chief given a copy? And the deposition was given just three to four weeks ago, and the chief got a copy about two weeks later. And the other question was, did you search the area southeast of the cemetery? And the answer was no.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I. This was. And again, I don't. I don't blame the witnesses. I think they're. They're trying their best here, but I think, like, they just keep on getting asked these repetitive questions in order to get them to a very specific response. And it's not being done very artfully at this point.

[Brad Rosie]

No.

[Anya Cain]

Now. Now, where were we?

[Brad Rosie]

Steve Mullen.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, Steve Mullen's back call.

[Brad Rosie]

Prosecution investigator, former Deli Police chief Steve Mullen to the stand. And Andrew Baldwin immediately signals where he's going to go by saying, how important is it to preserve evidence? Mullen says, very important. And this is because he wants to bring up the fact that some interviews that were conducted early on within the Delphi Police Department of people who may be involved in the case, those interviews were accidentally recorded over.

[Anya Cain]

Now, I feel like part of this was to bring up Brad Holder. That was one of the interviews that was taped over that was a really big deal to the defense because he was part of the gang they alleged of alleged Odinists, who they claim were the real perpetrators of this. And I felt like they kind of have tried to, like, bring that back in by.

[Brad Rosie]

They tried to sneak it in, kind.

[Anya Cain]

Of trick people into opening the door of like. Yeah, I'm.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, it was a funny moment because Andrew Baldwin, early on in this said to Mullen, what evidence, if any, is missing in this case? And Nick McLean says, Do you mean the Evidence? Do you mean the case of the evidence against Richard Allen and the charges against him? Them and Baldwin says, I mean the whole case of Abby and Libby and McLean said was only relevant if it pertains to the case against Richard Allen. And that is McLean saying the Odinism stuff doesn't pertain to the case against Richard Allen. So it's not relevant to be discussed here at all.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, there was quickly a sidebar as, as one can imagine. Maybe we'll talk about it in a minute. But I do want to address some of the very strange behavior we saw in this from Baldwin.

[Brad Rosie]

Go ahead and do it now.

[Anya Cain]

Well, you know what? Why not? Okay. This cross examination started well for Baldwin in my opinion because he was kind.

[Brad Rosie]

Of not a cross examination.

[Anya Cain]

I'm not blah, blah, blah, blah. No directs examination. This direct examination started well for Baldwin in my mind because he was really hitting Mullen hard about like you made these mistakes and like anytime you're able to make law enforcement look bad in front of the jury, jury, that's good for the defense. Right. Regardless of like how important it is to the case against Richard Allen. If you're saying you lost interviews, the jury might be like, well, okay, that doesn't sound good. So like that's all great for, for Baldwin, but as things gone on, it's like he was taking a longer time to ask questions. There were a lot of pauses. There was one time where he's just digging around in notes.

[Brad Rosie]

He kept looking up at the clock.

[Anya Cain]

It was like, like if you told me he was trying to drag things out because they were like about to run out of witnesses for that day because they had been thrown off by the fact that Max Baker's video wasn't coming in for the time being. I would not be surprised, but I'd also be confused because I'd be like, well, why not just say let's be done early today or something. Like I didn't get it. It was really weird. And also a lot of the stuff he went over with Mullen went from that kind of hard hitting stuff to like, like being really redundant to things that had already been discussed and like gone over and like what he was doing wasn't adding anything. Is that your perception?

[Brad Rosie]

That's my perception.

[Anya Cain]

Like I just. And actually I was surprised that McLean didn't object more here. Like he, he got pretty quiet and then Baldwin's kind of going through this. Well, you know, like literally just we'll go over some of the examples, but it was just thing after thing of just you know, they went over again, they went over the interviews, and I thought that was a good start for Baldwin. The missing interviews, where they taped over the interviews and then they got some of them back, but they didn't come back with audio. So not good. That makes the county authorities look like they are not on the ball. And given all the technical issues we've had at trial, it might be sort of an uncomfortable reminder for the jury. Yeah. So that they went over that. And then he was criticizing Mullen for, like, drafting reports at the time, documenting the fact that they lost these things, but not dating. But not dating them. And he's, you know, Mullen says, I'm sorry I didn't add the date.

[Brad Rosie]

And then. So Mullen says that he called Brad Webber in August of 2024 to arrange for Brad Webber to come to the police station for a conversation. That conversation would be about whether or not Brad Webber was driving the van on February 13, as we discussed earlier. And Baldwin was very upset and indignant because Steve Mullen, the interview they had with Brad Weber when he came to the police station, that was fully recorded, but Steve Mullen did not record it when he called Brad Weber to ask him to come to the police station. And so Baldwin tried to suggest that in that unrecorded call, Steve Mullen, for all we know, might have been telling Brad Weber exactly what to say. So it should have been recorded. Why didn't you record it? There's a recorder on your phone. Why didn't you use that? And Mullen said, well, I can't use the recorder on my phone because I was using my phone to actually call Brad Weber. And Baldwin was like, well, you have a CVS in town. They sell tape recorders. You should have tape recorded the call.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, like, do they normally tape a tape. Tape a call? Like, calls that are just, hey, come into the station now. I thought it was somewhat interesting that he was basically accusing of being corrupt and framing Richard Allen here. And I was a little bit surprised that McClelland did not object to that.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, me too.

[Anya Cain]

Because I don't know, I mean, it didn't really seem reasonable to me. I mean, I. I think we've been pretty upfront that we've felt like there were issues with this investigation. And I don't think it's a good look that they lost all those interviews. But, like, there's another thing of, like, saying, like, you planted things in Brad Weber's head to do that. It's. It just felt a little bit. I don't know, I mean, that's just my opinion. Obviously, they've. They're going to be aggressive, but, I mean, I just. I was again, a little bit surprised. McClelland did not step in there.

[Brad Rosie]

He asked Mullen if there was a list of law enforcement personnel who were walking in the area where the bullet was found, clearly trying to implicitly suggest that it was actually a police officer's bullet.

[Anya Cain]

And there's always been a lot of things where, like, this is a sprawling investigation, and people like Steve Mullen, Jerry Holman, Tony Liggett, they have all functioned in different roles, doing different things at different times. And so sometimes you'll have a situation where, like, maybe it's something Holman focused on and not Mullen. And then if they ask Mullen about it, then, you know, then it's a chance for Baldwin to make him look like a doofus who doesn't know what's going on. Like, you don't know that. Like, you seriously, you never measured the bridge, like, stuff like that. When it's like, well, that was someone else doing it. So that. That's a big theme in a lot of these. Let's see. Baldwin acknowledged it's a quote, quote, pretty big deal. You're making a big deal about this white van, kind of acknowledging that that is an important part of the state's case. They talked about, oh, whether or not this is a big thing, like whether or not one person could have killed Libyan. Abby Mullen said that since the arrest of Richard Allen, that is what he believes. You know, when asked if in the past, he says, quote, it doesn't matter what I think. It matters essentially what the evidence is.

[Brad Rosie]

Baldwin wanted to know, when did law enforcement find out that Dr. Mal. Dr. When did law enforcement find out that Dr. Waller listened to podcasts Mullen didn't know was there name or alert for Abby and Libby. Mullen doesn't remember. Is that. Is that kind of like jumping around?

[Anya Cain]

It's jumping around, but it's also like, who the. Who cares? At one point, and if they had any wider point to some of those things, it was lost. One point that Mullen got in a good counter punch when he said, you know, they're talking about the bridge and how important is it that Betsy Blair saw Richard Allen on the bridge? And he indicated it's not that important because, quote, Mr. Allen says himself that he was out on the bridge. And then Baldwin's like, like, outraged and like, where are you getting that? Where, you know, like. And he's like, he puts himself there at 1:30. We see something that looks exactly like his car on the Hoosier Harvester video at 1:27. And then Baldwin's countering, like, well, they. He also said he was there from noon to 1:30, and you don't care about that. And then he's like, well, from his original report, he said the later time. And then Baldwin saying, look, were you standing next to Dan Doolan? So it just. It was very heated, but in a way that didn't seem like, super effective.

[Brad Rosie]

Baldwin wanted to know how many tips linked Richard Allen to the crime. Mullen said, just one. You know, the one that Richard Allen turned in himself. Baldwin wanted to know approximately how many searchers were there on February 13th. Mullen didn't know. Baldwin wanted Noah. Who would know the most about the data on Liberty German's phone?

[Anya Cain]

You're like, what kind of question is that?

[Brad Rosie]

They've, like, called a tech guy, Christopher Cecil. And Baldwin said, well, did. Did any tipsters claim to recognize Bridge guy's voice? And Mullen said, yes.

[Anya Cain]

I just felt like at some point, like, Baldwin was gonna be like, play me out, Rosie. And, like, didn't, like, like, kind of, like, dance out of those things. It was. He was, like, stalling for time. Like, you expected almost someone to, like, burst through the door, suddenly be like, I'm the real witness. And like, they're like, oh, thank goodness you got here. We had a delay for a while. Like, I mean, it was. It was like he was vamping.

[Brad Rosie]

And then in the end, I think his final question was, well, so before Richard Allen was arrested and put into solitary, did he ever confess? And Mullen said, no.

[Anya Cain]

Like, I just. But, like, okay, you're a lawyer. Why would you do this? Why would you do any of this? It really didn't feel like he. Even when he was up there, it didn't feel like Baldwin even cared about. But, like, beyond some of the answers that we got to, it felt like a lot of it was just like he was just throwing out stuff. Like, why would you do that?

[Brad Rosie]

I don't have an answer.

[Anya Cain]

Did it look like he was stalling for time for you?

[Brad Rosie]

It looked like. I think I was the one that first pointed out how often he was looking at the clock.

[Anya Cain]

You did? And then other people started noticing it, too, and I started noticing it. And then I noticed how we would pause and ask questions in a slower manner. I mean, it was like. It was like, what are we doing? What are we doing wasting the court's time?

[Brad Rosie]

That's what it Felt like cross examination for prosecutor Nick McLean established that the phone call that Stephen Mullen made to Brad Weber was a very basic call, just asking him to come down to the station and did not tell him the subject or tell him what he had to say. And that interview was recorded.

[Anya Cain]

I thought it was bizarre. Well, was that maybe it was a redirect where he mentioned the texts?

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, redirect. And apparently at some point Brad Weber's gun was collected by law enforcement. It was tested and returned to him. Him.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And that. Yeah.

[Brad Rosie]

Andrew Baldwin said, did you ask Brad Weber if he ever gave inconsistent statements about driving home? This is during the redirect. And Mullen said that Brad Weber said he remembered exactly what happened the day that day. Because he has subsequently reviewed his text messages from that day that are on his phone.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Brad Rosie]

And Baldwin also tried to suggest that the lab report on Bradley Webber's gun did not specifically exclude it from being connected to the bullet. But then On Recross, prosecutor McLean says that the gun technician said that the bullet at the scene had been cycled through Richard Allen's gun. And they did not come to that conclusion about Brad Weber's done and then didn't.

[Anya Cain]

At one point Baldwin asked something about like, like almost, isn't it odd that Brad Webber would look at those texts of his day if he didn't know what was going on? But meanwhile, like a lot of people who come up on the stand that the defense has called have talked about, like oh well, I remember this because of phone call. I remember this because I looked back and I saw what time the phone call. So again, when, when, when it works for them, it's fine. But when someone else does it, especially someone and you know Odinism's out folks, so obviously you gotta pin it all on Brad Weber. Like that's the, that's the goal now. So now everything he does is incredibly suspicious. Even though it wouldn't be if it was anyone else. Right, right.

[Brad Rosie]

Should we move on to Toe Blasnby, the next witness?

[Anya Cain]

Yes, let's do it.

[Brad Rosie]

Tob Lesnby, he was only on the stand. I think about maybe two.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, can I just actually say there a lot of questions because I want the trail cam. We gotta mention the trail.

[Brad Rosie]

Talk about the trail cam.

[Anya Cain]

Mullen at some point brings up a trail cam, they gotta look at the trail cram. The jury was obsessed with the friggin trail cam. And they went over where the trail cam was facing. It was facing sort of west, slightly south towards deli. You could not see the crime scene with the bodies from there, it was actually kind of in the different direction. They saw someone on the trail cam on maybe the 13th and also maybe the 14th and, and firemen looking for the girls. Everyone wanted to know about the trail cam. There was, you know, what can you see in the trail cam? You can kind of see the ground, the trees, the sky. Could you see the bodies? No. Could, you know, basically, do you think that the girls. How do you think the phone got under? What wasn't there something about like, do you think they died around 232 essentially, because his.

[Brad Rosie]

And he said, yeah, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And then at one point Mullen kind of, I think, goofed up because he misunderstood a question he. Like they were asking, like, do you think that somebody who's driving and sees a parked car would really give that much of a good identification as a trained investigator? And I think he thought they were asking like, if he would do a good job. So he was like, yes, but I think what they're asking is, would like a civilian do a good job? And then they, someone else asked a similar question where he was like, like, well, some people would be really good at identifying a car and then others not so much. The questions here seemed devastating to Baldwin. Yeah, these were questions that were not following whatever logic he was putting down or attempt, like whatever he was doing. These, these guys wanted to know about more concrete things. I would be worried if I heard those questions and I was on the defense. And they were also looking for outs of like, well, can't people, can't eyewitnesses get stuff wrong sometimes? Like, those questions must have made McLean pretty happy and the defense team pretty sad.

[Brad Rosie]

Final witness of the day, former sheriff to Lesny, now the chief deputy of Carroll County. He acknowledged that he did not play a huge role in the investigation. He said his role as sheriff had him primarily doing administrative stuff.

[Anya Cain]

And that may be a surprise to some folks who followed the case for a long time because Lesny has always been in the media and has been kind of a public, public face of the case at times. But one must remember he is the sheriff of the county. He needs to project that. I think, I mean, I think a lot of sheriffs in that position would want to like show, hey, we care about this and we're talking about it. I'm going to talk to the media about it. But that does not mean he is doing day to day work. And in fact he cannot because it is largely an administrative role. He's, he's running the sheriff's office. People like Tony Liggett, who was a detective who is working on the case. They are going to be a lot more hands on and be more knowledgeable as a result. So not surprising there.

[Brad Rosie]

So with that said, Baldwin asked him, how many people do you think are involved in the murders until blood. And he said, well, after the arrest, ever since I thought there was just one person involved. And then Baldwin had him refresh his recollection by looking at a deposition Lesnie gave in August of 2020, in August of 23, in which Lesenby said that he thought that there were at least two people involved. And of course, this was about 10 months after Richard Allen's arrest. So he now acknowledges that. Yes, at that time, apparently he did think there were two people involved. And then the next question was, are there other people who thought that more than one person was involved? And he had to check. Check the deposition again.

[Anya Cain]

And McLan did foundational questions too.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah. And he acknowledged that at least at some point Tony Liggett, now the sheriff thought that there was more than one.

[Anya Cain]

Person or that he thought. Tony Liggett thought.

[Brad Rosie]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And. And McLan got him to say did.

[Brad Rosie]

Do you know, cross examination.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, well, no, even foundational, like do you know the thoughts of other officers on this? And it was kind of like, well, early on in 2017, I thought I did.

[Brad Rosie]

And on a cross examination he got, he made the point that Tobe Lesenby was not involved in the investigation and didn't know all the details. This information about to blasnby I think came out originally to the public back of the Franks memorandum of over a year ago now. And I've never really. He understood what the big deal is because when people are investigating, it's good to keep your mind open to all possibilities and go where the evidence leads you. And I think it would be a very poor investigator indeed who would set his mind on one possibility and then just discard everything that doesn't fit it.

[Anya Cain]

Well, that's what the defense does. So.

[Brad Rosie]

So I. I would think that the idea of a person thinking something and then getting evidence and then say, well, no. Now I. I think this. So I don't understand what the big deal is.

[Anya Cain]

I. It. There is no big deal. It's just about like picking out things and spinning them at this point. And it's.

[Brad Rosie]

What's that Mark Bowden book that.

[Anya Cain]

The Last Stone.

[Brad Rosie]

The Last Stone. That is an account of murder of two girls. Murder of two girls and three or four police officers who work together. And Ultimately get a conviction in the case. Case. And what is striking is at the end of the book, it's revealed that each of those investigators have slightly different versions of what they think happened, that they disagree. You know, investigators are human beings. They have different perspectives on what happened. And ultimately what matters is what you can prove in court.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. What fits the charges and that, like, this trial isn't going to prove any. Like, it's not going to like, fix everything and make every. Everyone's answers go away for every single topic. And frankly, there's a lot of minutia in the case that doesn't matter. It might be interesting to learn about, but it doesn't matter, legally speaking. But dragging out to blasmby here, it just was like, it was like, he's allowed to have his opinion. And also he was, you know, he was like, he was working as an administrator. Like if I had been working on an article at Insider back my old job, you know, and like, if you ask my editor, like, oh, what did you think about Anya's findings? And like, they might not know everything about it or they might remember when I started it and I had one, you know, thesis or conclusion and then maybe that evolved into something else later that they wouldn't write. It just felt like, you know, this is. This was a waste of time today. This was a complete waste of time.

[Brad Rosie]

One juror question, how many murders have you personally investigated? And lesbian acknowledged that he has not personally investigated any murders.

[Anya Cain]

So, you know, okay. And it's like, I mean, it was. Why, like, why, like, just put on your bullet expert and I'm sure they have some sort of crime scene person. Just put on that and rest. If you don't have anything, don't be putting on jurors that are not jurors, witnesses that are frankly just not adding anything to your theory of the case. Case at all. Not taking away from the state's case either.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah. The Lesny again is another witness who doesn't go to the issue of whether or not it was Richard Allen on that bridge.

[Anya Cain]

No, they seem to desperately want to, like, do you know the dangling shiny keys every time Richard Allen comes up. Oh, don't look over. Don't look over it. Don't look over the guy staring at everyone. Like, just focus on all this other stuff that has nothing to do with anything and doesn't even bolster our theory of the crime. It's just, it's been, it's been disillusioning to watch this because again, like we expected. Well, for, for a while ago, we expected a very good defense. And, and even, even as we've gotten closer and closer and we've seen some of the behaviors on the side of the defense, we were sort of like, well, I mean, they must be ready to go to trial because they didn't continue it. And like, here we go. And they must have kind of gotten something other than Odinism to put together. And it's just like, here we are. And we're like, you know, top 10 Reddit posts on deli from 2019. You know, who got the most upvotes. And. And here we go. And it's like, where are they getting their strategy from? What is happening?

[Brad Rosie]

So that was the last witness of the day, and the jury was dismissed, but Judge Go had a couple more things to handle the defense. So all the way back at the beginning of the episode, we talked about this witness, Goatee, who worked on a report with Special Agent Pole of the FBI. They hoped to get Gautier to Goatee. Goatee to talk about it today, and that didn't work out well for them. So now they want to get bring in Special Agent Pole, but he's working on election security in Texas and also has some health issues which prevent him from traveling.

[Anya Cain]

He's actually the supervisory special agent.

[Brad Rosie]

That's rank up. So they wanted him to testify via Zoom. And they said, you know, we had this. We just got this discovery in August. And so blah, blah, blah. And Go says, oh, so you got the disc, you got this evidence about Weber in August. And when did you issue the subpoena to poll? And it turns out they didn't issue the subpoena for poll until early October. And I think that went a long way towards Go's decision to deny.

[Anya Cain]

You could sort of hear their hope sink when she asked that question.

[Brad Rosie]

And then the other big issue is they have, since the trial began, they have filed twice to bring Odinism back.

[Anya Cain]

Well, they. Jesse James, remember that? That was first.

[Brad Rosie]

Well, that was first.

[Anya Cain]

Just. They. They've been talking about bringing in people who are incarcerated to testify. And Brad, Rosie at this point indicates that the one they're most concerned about is an inmate named Jesse James. And they. They don't know when they want him, but they might want him. And don't. Basically, he said, don't worry about any of the other incarcerated people for now. But, like, we'll let you know. Was that kind of what you got from it? But one thing with Paul is the defense will be able to confront Weber when they call him because they've subpoenaed him.

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So it's not like they can't go over possible discrepancies with him, but they like basically g is like confront him about it. Like you didn't even like they didn't like impeach him properly when McLean brought him out. Like it was like, go after him yourselves. Don't worry. Like you can use the statement to do that but you don't need to call Poland. Basically. Is that kind of.

[Brad Rosie]

And then Odinism. They, they filed twice since the trial began to bring Odinism back and Judge Gogan said there has to be a nexus and there is none. So that was denied. It's. I think they, they've acted like their whole strategy was Odinism and that after Odinism was removed from their grasp from Judge Goal, I believe they still had hopes that she would change her mind and bring it back. I don't know. But it doesn't look they came up with anything as an alternative, which is why we've gotten some of the witnesses we've gotten. In my opinion.

[Anya Cain]

How on earth would you ever think that Odinism would. It seems like they, they tried to accuse Holman and I, I think McLeland himself of opening the door on Odinism by mentioning like, you know, things like undoing in terms of putting the sticks on and like, oh, the sticks. And could more than one person have done this? Like Jerry Holman mentioned. I think that typically when you have a group of people who do a crime and one of them gets in trouble, they might, might squeal on the others and they're like, that's what Elvis Fields did. And it's like that's like a, I mean that's delusional. If they thought that that was going to just come back in. I mean after the three day hearing, I would think there would be a team who would be. Let's reassess, let's look at what is going to be the most promising defense to present for a jury. And I mean at that point it should have been clear that Odinism wasn't it.

[Brad Rosie]

And then there was another long sidebar. And when they came back, Judge Go indicated that tomorrow it looks like there's going to be one witness and possibly a video. So that's where things stand.

[Anya Cain]

Sort of sounds like they're going to bring back Max Baker and maybe we're going to watch some of the videos. So I don't know. I mean, I don't want to maybe that or maybe something else entirely. Who knows? But it was a disappointing day. I don't, I don't feel like a lot of this added anything. And I mean, I can't imagine more and more weeks of this because it's just they've had a while to kind of right the ship here and why they would bring in this parade of witnesses that are not adding anything and are not even really, like, not even really causing confusion in a very effective way. Because I think most people are just looking at it and like that we've talked to. I was like, wait, what? Like that person was there at 3 then who cares?

[Brad Rosie]

Yeah, it's all, it's all a mystery to me.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Well, there you go. All right.

[Brad Rosie]

Well, listen, I had to do it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Brad Rosie]

So have a good day or a good night. And we'll probably be doing another one of these tomorrow. Tell you what about whatever happens that.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks, everyone. Bye bye.

[Brad Rosie]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at wwpatreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Brad Rosie]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintgar.

[Anya Cain]

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful silver linings handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy. Well, being like he does it all, this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space. Just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[Brad Rosie]

On a personal level, Jason is frankly a great guy.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Brad Rosie]

He's been a really good friend to us. And so it's, it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think, I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show. He's been on our show a couple times. We've been on his show. He's a terrific guest. I, I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this. That really resonated. Like, I do quote him in, in, in conversation sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different, different complicated.

[Brad Rosie]

She quotes them to me all the time.

[Anya Cain]

I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think. And you like us, you, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think, think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can, can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[Brad Rosie]

It's, it's compassionate, it's affirming. But I, I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you'll all really enjoy it. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And he's got a great community that he's building. So we're really excited to be a part of that. We're really, we're fans of the show. We love it. And we would strongly encourage you all just check it out, download some episodes. Listen, I think you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Brad Rosie]

Wherever you listen to podcasts. Very easy to find.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.