The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Twelve: The Phone Calls

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Summary Episode: The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Day Twelve: The Phone Calls
Release Date: November 1, 2024
Hosts: Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee
Podcast: Murder Sheet

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Introduction

In this gripping twelfth episode of the Murder Sheet podcast, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve deep into the intricacies of Day Twelve of Richard Allen's trial for the Delphi murders. The episode primarily focuses on the controversial phone calls made by Allen during his incarceration, shedding light on the prosecution's efforts to use these calls as pivotal evidence against him.

Housekeeping and Acknowledgments

Before diving into the trial's proceedings, Áine and Kevin extend their gratitude to Michelle Jensen, a valued member of the Murder Sheet community who recently assisted them. Kevin humorously remarks, “[04:33] Kevin Greenlee: I think we might hear her name being thanked again sooner rather than later,” highlighting the supportive network behind the podcast.

Overview of the Trial Proceedings

Kevin sets the stage by emphasizing the significance of the current days in the trial, stating, “[02:07] Kevin Greenlee: I will…”

Judge Gull notes procedural matters, allowing the prosecution to present crucial evidence. The central focus is on Richard Allen's numerous phone calls, which the prosecution believes contain incriminating statements.

Richard Allen’s Phone Calls: Content and Implications

The prosecution introduces Master Trooper Brian Harshman, who has meticulously monitored Allen’s phone communications. “[19:56] Anya Kane: Yeah, he called himself the phone guy,” Áine explains, highlighting Harshman’s role in tracking over 700 calls made by Allen.

First Phone Call (November 14, 2022):
In a somber conversation with his wife, Kathy, Allen's tone fluctuates between despair and calmness. Áine notes, “[24:31] Anya Kane: He sounded very upset, but suddenly took on a very flat, more calm, affecting demeanor.”

Second Phone Call (April 2, 2023):
Allen discusses his newfound interest in religion, mentioning, “[27:22] Kevin Greenlee: ...accepted the Lord Jesus as my savior,” signaling a shift in his demeanor.

Third Phone Call (April 3, 2023):
A pivotal moment arises when Allen confesses directly to his wife, stating, “[31:56] Kevin Greenlee: I want to apologize to you. I did it. You know, I did it.”

Subsequent Calls:
Áine and Kevin analyze the consistency and tone of Allen’s confessions, noting a lack of emotional distress that one might expect. Áine observes, “[14:34] Anya Kane: ...it really wasn't what I was expecting.”

Prosecution’s Argument and Harshman’s Testimony

Harshman presents detailed accounts of the phone calls, emphasizing Allen's calm and subdued demeanor despite the gravity of his statements. “[59:20] Anya Kane: Yeah. These conversations just sounded like normal conversations.”

He also introduces a significant detail from Dr. Walla’s report, wherein Allen recounts the events leading to the murders, including the crucial mention of a van—a detail only the perpetrator would know.

Defense’s Cross-Examination and Challenges

Defense attorney Rosie challenges the credibility of the van detail by introducing Brad Weber as a possible suspect. “[68:08] Anya Kane: Yes. And he sounds similar to Bridge Guy,” Áine points out the unsettling similarity between Allen’s voice in the calls and the "Bridge Guy" chatter heard earlier in the trial.

Rosie attempts to question Harshman on the prevalence of tips regarding the van, but Harshman remains steadfast, admitting, “[68:25] Kevin Greenlee: I don't know.”

Technical Difficulties and Defense's Strategy

A significant disruption occurs when the prosecution faces technical issues while presenting a critical phone call dated May 17, 2023. “[85:22] Kevin Greenlee: ...this video is 30 minutes long. It's not, not clear if the defense has seen it.”

The defense appears increasingly disorganized, with attorney Andrew Baldwin expressing uncertainty about reintroducing Odinism into their defense strategy, despite it being previously dismissed. Áine comments, “[113:00] Anya Kane: Odinism was thrown out over the summer.”

Introduction of Defense Witnesses

The defense calls their first witness, Cheyenne Mill, who provides an alibi that seemingly exonerates Allen. However, her testimony lacks impactful observations, leading Áine to critique, “[90:05] Anya Kane: ...it didn't feel like this witness really had much to add.”

A second defense witness, Teresa Lieberet, presents an unconvincing account, struggling to recall specific details, which further weakens the defense's position. Áine notes, “[105:55] Anya Kane: ...she couldn't do it. And that didn't really lend a lot of confidence in her as a witness.”

Prosecution's Rebuttal and Closing of the Case

The prosecution wraps up their case by highlighting the consistency and reliability of Allen’s confessions. Amid mounting pressure, the defense fails to present compelling evidence or witnesses, leaving the prosecution's stance seemingly unchallenged.

Conclusion and Shift to Defense’s Strategy

With the prosecution completing their case, the episode hints at a potential shift as the defense prepares to present their side. Áine and Kevin express skepticism about the defense's preparedness, “[113:00] Anya Kane: Odinism is not a good theory...”

The episode ends on a tense note, anticipating the defense's next moves and the ongoing battle for the jury's perception of Richard Allen's guilt or innocence.

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Notable Quotes

• Kevin Greenlee: “[04:12] Kevin Greenlee: She was really delightful. I enjoyed talking with her.”
• Anya Kane: “[14:11] Anya Kane: Not like ranting, not raving. Just like having almost a normal conversation.”
• Kevin Greenlee: “[56:36] Anya Kane: No, not at all. And in, in addition to that, ...”

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Key Takeaways

• Phone Calls as Evidence: The prosecution heavily relies on Richard Allen's phone calls as evidence, portraying them as calm confessions without signs of duress.
• Defense Challenges: The defense attempts to introduce doubt through witness testimonies that lack strong corroborative details and residual technical issues.
• Trial Dynamics: The episode highlights the strategic maneuvering within the courtroom, showcasing the tension between prosecution’s structured narrative and defense’s fragmented approach.
• Jury's Perception: With the prosecution's strong presentation and the defense's faltering start, the jury remains at a critical juncture in assessing Allen's culpability.

This episode offers an in-depth analysis of the unfolding trial, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the legal strategies, witness credibility, and the emotional undercurrents influencing the case's trajectory.

Transcript

[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Kane]

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[Anya Kane]

Content Warning Today's episode contains discussion about the murder of two girls as well as topics like rape and suicide.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want to say this was another day in the Richard Allen trial. Of course, yes. And I I'm going to say that unless the defense pulls some pretty good surprises out of their hats, unless they come up with something rip roaring that's really legally sound, I will, I will. Yesterday and today would prove to be the two most important and significant days in this trial, unless that happens. So we have a lot to talk about, but I think we have some business to take care of first.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Deli Murders. Richard Allen on trial day 12. The phone calls.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we have some housekeeping to take care of before we get to it.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely. I would like to send a sincere and just very grateful thanks to Michelle Jensen, a wonderful murder sheet lifesaver slash line sitter who helped us out last night. Thank you so much, Michelle. It was so nice to meet you and we just really appreciate you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She was really delightful. I enjoyed talking with her. And I noticed that when we were talking with her this morning before going into court, I think she, there was a special glint in her eye when she found out about the two Timers wing of the Murder Sheet Lifesavers. So I have a feeling we might hear her name being thanked again sooner rather than later. I, I, I.

[Anya Kane]

The whole thing sounds like you're starting a cult. I don't love that. But I guess, I guess I don't really have the energy to argue with you, so I guess here we go. So, yeah, I see a glint in your eye. You're like, I don't know what's going on, folks, but we're just going to move along.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I also wanted to quick mention something else. You know, in life, you, you always tend to notice the people who can do things you can't do. And, you know, certainly there have been a couple of occasions during our coverage of the trial where we've had to stand in line all night. Now, thanks to the Lifesavers, we don't have to do that. But I still look like I've stood in line all night. If you just run into me somewhere, I look like I've stood in line all night. There was one occasion when we did have some lifesavers, and I arrived looking, I thought, really refreshed. And a veteran Indianapolis journalist, a trained observer, said, kevin, you look like you've slept on a park bench.

[Anya Kane]

I think you look very cute.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I always look kind of rumpled. And so I've always been impressed. The security personnel inside the courtroom, these are the people who are protecting Richard Allen. They're protecting all of us in the courtroom. A very important, crucial job, and I imagine a very high pressure job. And despite this, they have immaculate haircuts and they're wearing great suits. They look like a million dollars all the time. I can never look that good. And then on top of that, today is Halloween. And for those of us who have been in this courtroom, we were working so hard, we kind of forget about the outside world and things like Halloween. And the security personnel, they did something really kind of nice and subtle that it took you a few minutes to notice. But for today, all of them were wearing orange shirts with their suits.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I really like that. Very festive.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So they're protecting us. They're giving us a reason to smile and they look great doing it.

[Anya Kane]

And then I think Bodhi, the bailiff had a bright orange tie on. So, like, I was kind of like, wow, everyone's doing a lot of orange today. And then I was like, oh, my gosh, holiday. So this kind of a nice, nice thing. And those fellows are all, you know, they're, they're, they're very nice. And I think them and the bailiffs and certainly the deputies that we kind of have to, you know, interact with as we go. And, you know, they're all doing their jobs and I think they can be seen a little intimidating. But I've enjoyed saying hi to them and they seem like very nice people. So shout out to them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They don't seem like very nice people. They are very nice.

[Anya Kane]

Well, I, Yeah, they are very nice people. I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm just, I'm just tired. But I think I. It just, it's something that, you know, I think a lot of people get like, oh, my gosh, they're going to yell at us. But, you know, they really only yell at people when they're not doing what they're supposed to be doing. And generally they're just kind of there to make sure that nobody's rushing up to the jury or, you know, they're trying to coordinate everyone. And I just appreciate them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, they're all great. And of course, also protecting Richard Allen. Of course.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, very important.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we had our little bit of housekeeping and Judge G. And the attorneys in the case, they had some housekeeping to take care of before they got down to business. So the day started with some of that. Prosecutor Nick McLean talked about an affidavit from Don Stevens that he wanted admitted into evidence. And it was not on the exhibit list. But the defense has had this affidavit. I'm not really sure whether it's Don Stevens affidavit concern?

[Anya Kane]

I have no idea. I was so confused. But, you know, I guess that's par for the course. And then there were a number of photos of Richard Allen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So apparently when they did the extraction of Richard Allen's phone, they extracted four pictures of Richard Allen, and there's no dates attached to them. But it's believed that these pictures, obviously, since they showed him, not in prison, that these pictures were taken prior to his arrest. So the prosecution indicated they'd want them to be admitted so the jury would see what Richard Allen looked like at the time he was arrested. And the defense had some concerns because we don't even know what day or in time these, these pictures were taken and we can't date them.

[Anya Kane]

Right. So they were, they were talking about. Basically, they said that Christopher Cecil of the Indiana State Police, of course, he's sort of their. I guess, their technology expert in general. He said that he could eventually get the dates, but not in time for our purposes here. So I. That was, that was something that was mentioned.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then we, we started to get into more of the substance of what the day would be. Prosecutor McLean discussed the fact that he would be playing some phone calls that Richard Allen made while he was incarcerated, both to his mother and to his wife. And the defense was upset because a couple of those phone calls that they would be playing today were made on the same day as an earlier phone call that Richard Allen made to his, I believe, his mother.

[Anya Kane]

Mother and of stepfather. So Janice and Marvin Allen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the defense argued that this earlier call needed to be played to give proper context, because apparently in this earlier call, Richard Allen said something to the effect of, oh, I don't know how much longer I can be lucid. And so they took this. Is Richard Allen basically predicting, oh, pretty soon I'm gonna. I'm gonna go crazy and start saying.

[Anya Kane]

Wild things, you know, like a psychotic person does. Not really. I'm being sarcastic here, obviously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, there's. It's difficult to imagine a situation where a person predicts, oh, I'm going to lose lucidity soon, so don't be paying attention to what I have to say.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so they argued, if you're going to play those other calls, you need to play this call, too, to have a complete record. And McLean said, well, when what needs to be complete is each individual call, we're not editing the calls. We're going to play each call starting from the time it is made and ending at the time the call ends. We don't necessarily have to play every single call. And he said, if you take this argument from the defense seriously, you'd have to literally play every single phone call Richard Allen ever made while he was incarcerated. And Gull seemed very receptive to that argument. She told defense attorney Rosie, your argument would be better if the prosecution were playing incomplete calls, but they're not. But she did compliment him a bit in a backhanded way because she referred to his argument as a novel argument.

[Anya Kane]

Isn't that basically lawyer or judge speak for that? Stupid but creative?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So it's kind of a backhanded compliment.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Like, good try. His argument seemed, like, totally just ridiculous to me personally. But, I mean, I can understand why they made it, because it sounds like that first call from that night was a lot more favorable to Richard Allen where he's, you know, saying, you know, he's not saying incriminating things at that point, but it's, It's. It just sort of. It's not like they're. It's not like McLeland is and his team are, like, splicing out comments from the calls and saying, like, like, I did it. And then it turns out he's saying, well, I don't think I did, but maybe I did it. Like, it just seemed ridiculous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I want to say, Anya, of course, this particular discussion took place outside the presence of the jury, so it didn't affect them. But I think it affected me a bit because when he was talking about Richard Allen was predicting he's going to lose lucidity before he makes these other calls. I was expecting, when we heard these other calls, that Richard Allen would sound ranty and kind of crazy and what have you.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is that what your expectation was?

[Anya Kane]

That is what my expectation was. And I was thinking. I was thinking about that with Rosie's comments in mind, like, wow, he's saying he's going to lose lucidity. Now, again, that doesn't really sound like something that a person actually dealing with psychosis would necessarily say, but I don't know, let's. Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say it is. So I would expect something where someone's all over the place and really disorganized in their thinking, perhaps, and very much, you know, like, maybe highly emotional, maybe kind of ranting maybe this or that or. Or maybe not even that. Maybe just like, kind of all over the place. Right. Like, you know, like you're jump. You're happy one minute sa. You know, I, I was expecting something A bit different than now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Without getting into the substance of these calls, which we'll get to in a few moments, what did we get in terms of his tone?

[Anya Kane]

I would say in. In one, he was crying. So that was. That was something we can discuss separately. In most of these, I would describe him as calm. Maybe a bit somber, a bit muted, but calm. And somebody who was almost just having a conversation. They were very. I was struck by how conversational they were. So it would be something like this, and we'll read more quotes and whatnot. But I, you know, Kevin, I committed a murder. Tell everyone I love them and thanks for sending the birthday card. You know, like, it was like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, exactly like that.

[Anya Kane]

Not like, you know, not like ranting, not raving. Not just kind of like, I want you to know I did this. I'm trying to tell you that you're not really listening, but, you know, oh, it was really great to hear from you, like, having almost a normal conversation just about something really abnormal. So it really wasn't what I was expecting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I'm on that page, too, and we'll talk about the substance in a second. But another thing I wanted to mention is yesterday we talked about the. Or whenever it was, we talked about the interviews he did with police, and we had a lot of disclaimers, disclaimers about voice analysis and all of this. But we said to us, especially in the interview he did with Carroll county investigators, he sounded like bridge guy.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In these calls, all of the previous disclaimers, obviously, still, let's go over them. But I mean, let's talk about the sound of his voice.

[Anya Kane]

The disclaimers being. It's just our opinion, and you don't have to agree. And we're. These are bad audio. In. In terms of what was on Liberty's phone is kind of. It's only a few words, and you can't determine from anything from that. But that being said.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, my God.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This was the voice of Bridge guy.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. I'm sorry, I can't unhear. I can unhear it. I can't unhear it. It's. It's. It's. It's. It's striking. It's. Yeah. I don't know what to say in these videos. In these tapes, I should say in these tapes, I was gobsmacked to the point where there's an opening in each one because it's on a recorded line from a prison where they talk about, like, you have a call from Ricky and that just him saying Ricky alone. I just, I got chills. Like it? Yeah, I'm. I was shocked by how similar it sounded to the recording of Bridge Guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Learn [e-mail] yeah, it was, it was. Yeah, it was shocking. It was shocking. It even more so than in the interviews we watched the other day.

[Anya Kane]

I think he sounded very, very similar to Bridge Guy in the Carroll county one. In the, in the ISP one. It seemed to be a better recording system and he didn't sound as similar to me. There were, there were glimpses of it, but it wasn't as similar. But on these calls he sounds very much like Bridge Guy. Like chillingly, disturbingly so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And I looked around and there were people in the audience who were gobsmacked.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was, it was. It was. Yeah. So want to get those two things out there.

[Anya Kane]

That's not evidence. It's not evidence. They're not going to be bringing in, you know, voice analystly. That's just not going to happen. But it's something that we are noting and we are allowed to say because we are observers here and it is our opinion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And that's not based on any scientific analysis because again, we are human beings with ears.

[Anya Kane]

That's all it's based on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And people who do voice analysis would say you need a lot more words than guys down the hill.

[Anya Kane]

It is just our subjective opinion, but it is based on. We both have listened to the guys down The Hill thing. Many, many, many, many times.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As have all of you, I'm sure.

[Anya Kane]

As have all of you, I'm sure. And I will tell you that in my opinion, this sounded exactly like Bridge Guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I would say that is also my opinion.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To make that clear, it's not just Anya, it's also me.

[Anya Kane]

Well, so shall we go through Master Trooper Brian Harshman's testimony?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So the person who was to be introducing this material is Master Trooper Brian Hartchman of the Indiana State Police. He was presented for the prosecution by prosecutor Nick McLeland. And he discussed how after Richard Allen was arrested, he began having lots of outside communications, as people in that situation do. You can have telephone calls, you can do video chats, sometimes you can send texts, and all of these are monitored. In fact, jumping ahead just a little bit, I can tell you that in every single recording we heard today of a phone call, there was a voice at the beginning of the call saying, this call is being monitored. So he. Richard Allen's been making a lot of calls. In fact, Harshman said that he's made, I think, about 700 calls. And Brian Harshman, it has fallen to him to be the phone guy.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, he called himself the phone guy. And he joined the Delphi investigation in April 2020. He said, quote, it became evident pretty quickly that there was a large volume of communications to his family and to others, end quote. And then also, quote, I sort of anointed myself as the person who would keep track of his communications, end quote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, in other words, he is listening to every call Richard Allen makes.

[Anya Kane]

He. He said that about, like, most of them were 30 minutes, about some were less than five, and some were between five and 30. But he said 30 minutes was kind of more of where these were around.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said he's listened to every single call, and at some point, he also went through and re. Listened to all of them. And there are some calls that he listened to multiple times. And all told, he says he has spent hundreds of hours on this endeavor. And he said in these calls, Richard Allen has made a number of confessions and incriminating statements.

[Anya Kane]

You want to go over these calls as they came up?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's go over the cause. The first call is this November 14, 2022, is that we have in your notes.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. To his wife, Kathy Allen. And this one for me, I'm struggling because I wrote it down. Some people heard one thing, other people heard others. This was difficult to follow in fairness, because Richard Allen and I believe Kathy Allen in this one, were crying Is that. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. They were both weeping. This isn't too long after the arrest. The arrest was what, October 26th. This is November 14th. So a little over two weeks later.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, and a half weeks. So the debate is about whether. So I guess we'll. Why don't we read what we have and then we'll talk about where the debate came in. Because I'm gonna. Frustratingly, my handwriting is very bad, and I cannot read the last word that I wrote. And that's kind of where it all comes down to. So do you want to go over the quote?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you want to just start with that quote? Then we're to cover the rest of the call.

[Anya Kane]

So, quote, if this becomes too much for you, call the detectives, and I'll tell them anything they want to either know or hear. So that one little word changes the context quite a bit, doesn't it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It does.

[Anya Kane]

So if you say. If they tell them they want to hear, then you could say bas. Well, he might falsely confess to something he didn't do. Because that's what they want to hear. If it's what they want to know, then maybe you have information that they want to know, and you're going to be giving that to them. To me, I'm just going to say my impression of that call was perhaps more ambivalent. I think it just sounded like some upset people talking. And I could see it being kind of in the category of things like you're depressed because this happened and you don't want your family to be dealing with this anymore, so you're almost like, well, maybe I'll just give up. And to me, the debate about the word there. Yeah, I think that's important to know, and I'd love to get that cleared up at some point, but it's one of those things where I'm not quite. You know, it was just kind of like if that. If that was alone, I'd be like, well, it's kind of ambiguous. I don't know. What did you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I. I had in my notes, tell them what I know. Okay, but.

[Anya Kane]

So you had. No, some people had here, but I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Think I. Yeah, I'm not. Yeah. So I. I don't know what to think. Different people heard different things. I'm not a thousand percent positive, so I wouldn't go to the wall on that. This is, as you've said, this is not one of the most more damaging phone calls.

[Anya Kane]

No, but it, you know, I mean, it kind of gets us started, and it also Gives us a baseline of how he sounds when he's really upset.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. I want to read some of the other things he said in this call. He was. He again, he's talking to his wife, Kathy. He says, I love you so much. I don't want you to worry about me. All I do is worry about you. Kathy says, you need to hang in there, okay? He's crying. He says, let everyone know how much I love them. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. He. I can't help you. I can't tell you things to make you feel better. I'm sorry, baby. I'm sorry, baby. Just one more thing. I up for you. I love you so much. I wish I could see you, baby. I'll see you in the next life. All right. Take care of the family. Is that what was in your notes?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. I also have something about. He's. They're talking about moving him. And it was like somebody. She said something about I. Again, this is hard to hear, but something about. Maybe she was really difficult to understand because she is also crying. Something about, they don't want you to move. And he's like, no. And he's. She says, they're afraid for you. And then I thought it was weird, this moment. He had, like. He had been crying. He sounded very upset, but he suddenly kind of took on a very flat, more calm, affecting, and just said, okay. So that was kind of. I mean, that was the only thing that stood out to me. But of course, you know, in your conversation, things are shifting. Whatever. I definitely felt, again, this one was more ambiguous. And it seemed like even. Even if he said something to the effect of, you know, something like, I'll tell them what they want to know. It just. It just was one of those ones. I was kind of like. It just. There was a lot of cross talk, a lot of back and forth, a lot of crying. It was just a little bit more ambiguous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The next conversation was on April 2, 2023. This is a conversation between Richard Allen and his mother, Janice. I had a little bit easier time understanding this one. And I tried to write as quickly as I could, which may not be fast enough. Do you want me to read my notes? You want to start with your notes, or how do you.

[Anya Kane]

We. We knew generally it was a talk about religion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Jump in if I miss anything. Richard Allen says to his mother, good morning. I've been trying to get a hold of. Kathy, of course, is his wife. I was curious to see if I could get through to you. Janice responds by making A comment about how the weather has been bad. There's been a lot of bad storms. I think she's suggesting maybe that has something to do with the phone issues. Richard Allen says, well, we had some hail here. If you talk to Kathy, tell her I'm okay. Are you going to church? Janice says, my friend and I started going.

[Anya Kane]

To this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My friend and I started going after I wrecked my van.

[Anya Kane]

She talks about to a church in Peru, Indiana.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, he's going to church that long? Yes. Going to a church in Peru. Richard Allen starts crying, says, that's good to hear. And Janice says, yeah, wouldn't make it through this without church and religion. And Richard Allen says, did Kathy tell you I accepted the Lord Jesus as my savior? When he does that, he quickly turns off the crying.

[Anya Kane]

And she says, oh, that's so wonderful. And she said, God's really been important to me. God's really important to me now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And when Richard Allen starts off his crying, he says, I will try to get hold of Kathy before I go to sleep. He says, I've got a family that's always going to love me no matter what. We're all going to be back together eventually, maybe when we're together in heaven.

[Anya Kane]

And you were just paraphrasing for this because I think some of my quotes are a little bit different, but I think you're kind of reading more of a paraphrase, just to clarify. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have them in quotation marks, but maybe I am just paraphrasing.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I think you're paraphrasing a little bit. I think, you know, there's like. He says, God's really important to me right now. I thought that was kind of an interesting thing. I think. How was his affect to you before he, you know, I guess to me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He talks about a Bible that Kathy sent him, and he indicates some sort of confusion about it because he says, the Bible she got me doesn't even say Holy Bible on the front. On the front. It just says the message. Dr. Frank gave her that Bible. I wanted her to thank Dr. Frank for saving my life by giving her the Bible. And he is crying. And Janice says something like she was trying to see if one of the lawyers could get you that to you. She says she loves him. And Richard Allen says, love you, too, Muff. And what did you want to talk about?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, to me. I wanted to. No, you. You nailed that at the end. That was completely. That was what I had exactly in my notes with the Dr. Frank element. There's a whole thing in Here, where when they're talking about the weather, you know, Janice is mentioning, like, tornadoes. It is the most casual thing. I feel like I've been part of those conversations where you're just kind of like, oh, yeah, we had hail. Oh, yeah, we had some tornadoes down here. Crazy storm, right? Yeah. I mean, it was so casual. Janice sounds so normal. And then Alan himself. It's like you. I feel like to a, to a certain degree, if you were listening in on this and you had no idea the context, you would just think it was the mother and son sort of catching up for a minute. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it was. It was bizarre.

[Anya Kane]

His, his. He goes through mood shifts on these calls, seemingly very quickly. And, you know, that's not. I mean, some people, that's just the way they are. But he'll be talking and then suddenly he'll be crying. It seemed to mean a lot to him about the religious angle coming up. And he was really struck by the fact that she was going to church and seemed really happy about it, like, they all need God. And that really resonated with him, seemingly. And this kind of fits in with the timeline of him becoming more interested in religion around March 21, 2023. And I feel like, yeah, you could definitely hear that in his voice that that's, that's hitting for him and that he's connecting with his wife seemingly, who's sending him a Bible, and his mother, who's going to church. Now, I remember he talked about, like, the. And I think in Dr. Walla's testimony, she said that he said his parents were not churchgoers as he grew up. And so it's like this is something the Allens are connecting over now, seemingly in this phone calls, the kind of turning to faith, turning to religion. And he, he seems to be kind of in the center of that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One thing they don't connect on is he seems to want to make incriminating statements to unburden himself, and they are not interested in hearing it. Let's talk about a call that exemplifies this. This is a call from April 3, 2023, a call from Richard Allen to his wife Kathy. This is the gist of it. Richard Allen says to his wife, I want to apologize to you. I did it. You know, I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. She says, you didn't. He says, yes, I did. I don't know why. She says, no, you didn't. You're not feeling well. They're, they're, they're. They've Messed up your meds? He says, maybe I did it. I think I did it. She says, no, you didn't. She said, is there a way to talk to dad? She says, there's something wrong. They're screwing with you there. I know you didn't. He says, I think I did. She says, no, you didn't. Why would you say that they're screwing with you? He says, I want to apologize to the families. And at this point, she's crying so much, it's hard to understand, at least for me. So that's all I got.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How does that compare with your.

[Anya Kane]

I had all of that, except I had. Is there a way to. I thought they said Brad instead of dad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, that makes more sense.

[Anya Kane]

Brad the lawyer. Brad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Rosie, Is there a way to talk to Brad?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, way to talk to Brad. And he. Then he goes on, I think I did. And, you know, it's. Again, I'm. We're not. I'm not really hearing what she's saying in response, but, like. Because I did it. That's what he's saying. And she. She. She starts telling him, just don't talk anymore. And I don't know whether she hung up at a certain point, but the call ends sort of abruptly. And. Yeah. So this is where we see the start of sort of him telling this to his family and getting their reactions to the information he is providing them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And as you said, this may be slightly paraphrased because these calls are happening, and we're just trying to write down as much of it as we can.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. If we don't get this perfect, we're really sorry. We're trying to just give you. But mostly they're. Hopefully, you know, you can keep that in mind. And. But hopefully they're mostly just important because you're getting the gist of it. We tried to write as exact notes as possible, but sometimes Kevin will have something different, sometimes I'll have something different. And it's a little bit hard to determine who's correct without seeing the transcript in front of us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. Which we don't have in this case, where I thought I heard the word dad and Anya heard Brad, she's almost certainly correct.

[Anya Kane]

And there's also a bunch of stuff where I have it, and Kevin's like, no, that's not what I heard. And I'm like, oh, wait, that makes more sense. So we're just, you know, we're trying to work it together. It's actually nice. Some of the folks in the audience will kind of pool together at times, and we'll all be like, okay, did you hear this? Was I totally off base? And that's kind of helpful, but, you know, can't do that for Nestle every single word. So the Next one was May 10, 2023. And this was another.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is a call to Kathy Allen from Richard Allen. She says, hello, are you there? It's good to hear your voice.

[Anya Kane]

She says she's supposed to be meeting Brad Rosie at a gas station.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Tip. Find something. And then Rich Allen replies, are you okay? She says, yeah, what's going on? He says, I think maybe I've lost my mind. She says, we've all lost our minds at this point. And Richard Allen says, so I can trust Baldwin and Rosie? She says, yes, they're your lawyers. She says, and then Richard Allen says, I need to tell you something. And Kathy Allen's like, are you sure you want to do that over the phone? And Richard Allen says, I need you to know I did this. And Kathy Allen says, what? No, there's no way. Richard Allen says, do you still love me? Kathy Allen says, I still love you, but you haven't done anything. Richard Allen says, I'm definitely going to lose my mind now. Kathy Allen says, I'm supposed to be meeting Brad. Richard Allen says, I'm just trying to be at peace with this. I had a dream. I need to let you go, and I have to let you know I did it. She says, you didn't. There's no way. There's no way. That's all I had.

[Anya Kane]

And I said, don't be talking about negative things. And then I kind of can't read my own handwriting. And then, yeah, but I. But I think about. I want to let you know I did this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And what do you think about the relationship between him?

[Anya Kane]

It's bizarre, frankly, between him and his wife. I mean, listen, we don't know inside their marriage. We don't know them as people. Even when you do know a couple, it can be hard to decipher inside of a marriage because there's a lot of unique nuances there. So, I mean, I'm not going to weigh in too much, but we're only getting a glimpse of the iceberg here. The iceberg is weird and the iceberg is strange. There's an odd dynamic at play here. I felt like when we saw the. The tape of the interview he did with Holman, you know, he was very outwardly sort of the dominant one in a way, because he's basically telling her what to think. I know, you know, I didn't do this. It felt like a very manipulative conversation, if I'm being totally honest. Like, it wasn't like a lot of, hey, do you have questions? I'll explain it to you. It was a lot of like, here's what you're going to do. You know, you know me, you know I wouldn't do this. It was just like, I don't know, it just, it struck me as odd. I think it struck a couple other people who saw it as odd. But, but, you know, it's an odd situation for a couple to be in. So I kind of get it on some level with this. There also seems to be, as we're going to talk about, I think, kind of different power plays and manipulativeness going on on both sides almost, I would say, because she's really trying to get him to shut up, and he's really trying to get her to accept what he's saying, which is that he did this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's important to him, or at least it seems important to him, that she understand that he did this terrible thing and that she still loves him.

[Anya Kane]

He wants to know, will you still love me even if I'm a child murderer? And what she keeps on basically saying is refusing to accept that premise. So it's like, but that makes him more agitated because he wants to know. No, no, no. Like, I think he wants more than just a professional of love. He wants, he wants unconditional love.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I, I, I think in my notes, when I say, like, he says, I did this, and she says, no, you didn't. She actually says it several times like, no, you didn't. No, you didn't. No, you didn't. And that's like the extent of the reply. And it's almost like a conversation. I don't mean this to be insulting, but it's almost like a conversation with a toddler. This is not a reasoned discussion. She's just saying, no, you didn't. No, you didn't. No, you didn't.

[Anya Kane]

And what I don't understand is, like, I get that she's trying to get him not to talk, but, like, hang up. You know what I mean? That would be a way to deal with it. And it seems like she may have in a few instances, but the damage had already been done at that point. But, yeah, it's not a reasoned conversation. It's like, it's kind of like plugging your ears and saying, like, I can't hear you almost. And, you know, but he, he's not. He. At the same time, he's not offering any specifics of the crimes here. These are, you know, he's just saying, I did it. I want you to, like. He's just trying to convince her almost so she could accept that. She's refusing to accept that. And in fact, she's also giving him sort of an out. And this, we'll go over this more even later, because it comes up again and again. But one thing that she and later Janice Allen pick up on is, no, the only reason you're even saying that is because they're messing with your meds, they're messing with your food. And I was just really curious, where did they get that from?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a good question.

[Anya Kane]

That's a good question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we speculate amongst yourselves.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I also want to give, to be completely fair to Kathy Allen, when she's saying, don't be saying these things, it's actually pretty decent advice because surely by this point, Baldwin and Rosie have let her know that all these phone calls are being recorded. And so she must know that anything he says that is of an incriminating nature is going to be heard by law enforcement and might end up being played in court someday, as, of course, it was today.

[Anya Kane]

I mean, she's trying to protect her husband. You know, she's basically trying to shut him down before he hurts himself with these statements. But he is insistent. And in a way, in a way, it almost felt like a reverse of the sort of the interview that we saw that Alan did with Jerry Holman. You know, Holman sort of using anger or kind of pushing, you know, pushing him, like, rhetorically as a tool in order to kind of elicit a reaction. As a detective, that's what he's trained to do. And in this, it's almost like Kathy Allen is. Is trying to almost convince him to stop talking and to accept the fact that he's being brainwashed or drugged or whatnot. You know, but she's. Instead of anger, she's. She's, she's kind of confronting him with her emotions, which is sadness, upset, grief to a certain extent. So. But she's definitely pushing him hard, frankly, to drop it, stop doing this, and just accept that he's an innocent man. He's very calm. He's has this, you know, normal flat affect where he's kind of like, you know, I gotta tell you this, like, it's serious, it's, it's solemn, but he's trying to push her in the opposite direction of, like, can you hear me out. I did this. Let's talk about it. Almost.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I feel. Not to make light of this, but I feel there's been more emotion in my voice. If I, When I tell you, oh, I forgot to take. Takes the frozen duck out for dinner and so he won't be able to eat it. He just seems very, very calm.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I. It's hard to. It's. And she's very emotional. I mean, which, which would, which is more understandable given the circumstances. It's. It's very odd. Their whole dynamic is, Is a bit strange because. I don't know, like, I feel like it's. It's interesting that she double down so much, but, you know, I mean, it's. It's like. It's like anything. If you, if you feel you know somebody and you feel like, you know that they're not capable of something, I think it can be very difficult to hear anything else, even when they are telling that to you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's do the next phone call from May 10, 2023. Again, this is Richard Allen and Kathy Allen. Richard Allen says, hey, it's me. I need to know if you still love me. She says, yes, dear. He says, and everyone else will as well, honey, because I may have to spend the rest of my life here. She's crying. Richard Allen says, I just got to know that everyone is still going to love me. She continues to cry. He says, I must have missed something there.

[Anya Kane]

I, I wrote down. He is so flat, and I underlined it. He's. His voice was so flat here. And he. And then I see. He starts saying, it's true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's true, honey. And she says, no, it's not.

[Anya Kane]

No, it's not. It's true. No, it's not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just hope you still love me. He says, if I get the electric chair or the death penalty. She says, it's not going to happen.

[Anya Kane]

I thought she said, I'm not going to let that happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he says, if it does. If it does happen, will you be there for me? She's crying and Richard Allen says, it's okay, honey. I did it. I did it. She's crying. Richard Allen says, I killed Abby and Libby. And she says, no, you didn't. Stop saying it. Richard Allen says, I know I should let you go. She says, we're going to be back together. He says, love me no matter what. Will you always love me? And I guess that's all I have.

[Anya Kane]

She said, quote, please stop talking. And then the call ended abruptly. She also said, in There. I think she. He. I think he said at one point, I cannot stop. I don't know whether he was referring to, like, killing kids or, you know, talking or whatever. And she said at one point, this isn't right. Yeah. This is like, one thing I notice about the calls is that in the beginning, you know, they were much more like. The first one was. Was rough because they're crying together. But then, like, the first one is, like, you know, starts out normal and sort of devolves. But she sounds, like, excited to hear from him and whatever. But over time, you can tell her affect has changed because it's more reserved, even fearful, because it's like she's probably been briefed by the attorneys that these calls could really hurt him. And she's getting these calls, and it's like, what do you do? Do you screen your incarcerated husband's call and leave him alone, or do you take it and risk him damaging his case even further? That seems to be a calculus that has kind of been going on here to a certain extent. And then she's. She gets very, very upset when he's saying these things. But the call still endures long enough for him to say them. So the damage is done.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. The next call was supposed to be a May 17, 2023 call between Richard Allen and his mother, Janice. The prosecution, for whatever reason, has been plagued with technical problems.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, yeah. This has been the biggest problem for the. The prosecution, the state side.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They start playing what was supposed to be a call between Richard Allen and his mother. And it was Richard Allen and. And his wife talking about whether or not it'd be okay for her to get rid of some of his golf clubs. And prosecutor McLean said, oh, a mistake has been made. He took responsibility for it. And he said, we'll figure it out. But in the meantime, let's go on to the next call, which was June.

[Anya Kane]

5, 2023, and this one was to Kathy Allen again.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it started out with some very kind of bland small talk, if I understood it correctly. It seemed as if someone had put some money in Richard Allen's commissary account, and he wasn't sure who did it. I. I know he certainly has a rabid online fan base, for lack of a better word. Yeah, I wouldn't be. It's not terribly shocking when those people did that. And she was encouraging him to, like, use it to get, like, snacks or.

[Anya Kane]

Something, to get coffee. She said, we. We need to get you coffee almost. I don't know if that's allowed in Prison. But she also, he. He kind of expressed some skepticism, like, I'll do, though. I don't know where this is coming from. Like, you know, kind of concerned about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She says, lord, what a mess. He says, I feel like I've. I've lost my mind and gone to hell. Kathy Allen says, well, we're kind of living that right now. And then he just abruptly says, you know, that I done it right. And Kathy Allen says, I don't want to talk about that. I want to have a good conversation. He says, something about being in a frustrating spot right now. Nobody will talk to me or be honest with me. They're probably afraid they're hurt my feelings or something, is what I have.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is that what you have?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. I just don't feel like anybody's going to be honest with me anymore. I don't have the frustrated part, but I wrote down frustrated, but I don't have anything else. But, yeah, I mean, like, yeah, you get the sense that people are not necessarily talking to him as much as they once were.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Over concerns as to what happened in the previous calls, I imagine.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that's just speculation on our part, obviously.

[Anya Kane]

But it's. It's like. And then they talk a bit about getting a chaplain. The chaplain is, like, helping him to. You know, she kind of indicates, like, religion still could be helpful, I think. Did he say something like, was he, like, almost questioning her about the Holy Bible? Like, there was some alluding back to the conversation with his mother? Janice. It was like he didn't believe it was a Bible at first because it just said the message. And then I thought he almost apologized here for asking so many questions about that, for questioning her about it for whatever reason.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's not in my notes.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I could be wrong. There was some discussion of questions about the Holy Bible. And, yeah, it's. It's interesting that she says she just wants to have a positive conversation with him, because before she was like, this is negative. Like, I don't know. It's. What do you think about their dynamic? I give you my opinion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's really, really unhealthy and not good.

[Anya Kane]

Okay, well, I guess you're more blunt than I am today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You hate to judge other people's relationships. You hate to judge marriages that you're not in. As I've said, if you listen to this program or our sister program, Mystery, to me, you might jump to some sort of conclusions about our relationship that may or may not be true. You really cannot understand a relationship unless you're A part of it. But with all of those disclaimers stated, I'll also add that I'm not a marriage therapist. I have not studied that. I'm not a therapist of any kind.

[Anya Kane]

Well, you sound like you're doing foundational questions on stand.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But with all of that, just based on my experience as a. As a human being who's lived many more years than I care to admit to, this seems deeply unhealthy.

[Anya Kane]

I'm just going to say this, and this is something that, again, I only say this as a. As a recovering alcoholic myself, but one thing that you can get in substance abuse situations is people enabling others. And, yeah, I have some questions about sort of their dynamic after hearing this. It just, I guess, like, for me personally, maybe I'm just a curious person. I. I mean, I would be devastated if you were accused of some horrific crime, or I imagine anyone would be if the spouse that they love was. And so that can be very disorienting. And, you know, you feel like you're on quicksand suddenly because everything you thought you trusted is out the window.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, but.

[Anya Kane]

So I. I certainly have empathy here, but at the same time, if you were trying to tell me something that badly, I would listen, or I would at least be curious about it. I think it would gnaw at me. You know, this person wants to tell me something that's important to them, and. And then I think at that point, you know, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to necessarily have that conversation over the phone where it could be recorded, but I would certainly be very interested in learning what that is. So I can make a decision based on that. Because if somebody tells me some story about how awful they are and it's like, obviously nonsense because it doesn't fit anything, then I can maybe dismiss it and say, well, this is something where it's just. They're dealing with something. But if. If it's something more than that, then I can assess it and make a decision.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you also have to take into account, in my mind, if your spouse or someone you love does something as horrible as takes the lives of two innocent young children, you owe something not only to your spouse, but you owe something to the greater community and the world. And you certainly owe something to the families of the dead.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I don't. I don't. Yeah, I don't believe in standing by predators. And that's something that you have to kind of figure out for yourself about whether you're standing by an innocent man, you know, who's being wrongfully accused or if you're standing by a predator. But. But certainly, I. I certainly would. I think a lot of people would be a little bit more curious than this. And I guess it sounds like, from what we've heard about some of Richard Allen's background is that he had a history of some pretty awful behavior, frankly, threatening suicide, waving a gun around and sticking it in his mouth. You know, that this is a man with some pretty severe issues. And I think that compare combined with the substance abuse that she knew about, because he says that she took care of him through the bouts of alcoholism where he was less functioning. You know, I. I think that certainly none of that makes you a child killer, but it's. It's certainly. I don't know, there's some red flags.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There, I guess, to say the least. Next call, June 11, 2023, again, is between Richard Allen and his wife Kathy. In my notes, it starts rather abruptly with Richard Allen saying, I did it.

[Anya Kane]

No. Yeah. Hello. Hi. I did it. Pause. Kathy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kathy.

[Anya Kane]

What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then he says again, I did it. Silence. He says, I did it. Or do you still love me? She says, why do you say it?

[Anya Kane]

Well, she. He. She says, yes, dear, but you didn't do it. And then he said, why do you say that? And she said, why do you say it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

She said, I don't want. He. He says, I don't want to upset you. She says, she's already upset. He says, I'm sorry. I don't know what I'm doing. I feel like I've lost my mind. Kathy Allen says, you can't call me and talk like this. Okay?

[Anya Kane]

And she said that with some acid in her voice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He says, I'm so sorry, baby. I didn't want to do this, honey. I'm sorry. You're not going to do anything to yourself, are you? I'm probably going to have to kill myself now. You don't have anything to do with it. Why are you so mad at me? She says, I'm not mad. I'm upset. He says, I can't tell you what's been going through my mind. I feel like I'm already in hell. I don't understand what's going on. She says, neither do I. He says, I guess I'm just going to have to stop calling you. I'm sorry. Okay.

[Anya Kane]

She's really crying. Yeah. Can't call me if you're going to talk like that. And then he says, if I'm going to talk like what? And the call ends.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

So we're getting to the point where there's not even any sort of. In this kind of call. There's not even any, like, sort of light talk about anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's just.

[Anya Kane]

He's almost like, trying to blindside her in the beginning with, like, I did it. Like, you know what I mean? Like, he's not. He's not. There's no preamble anymore. He's just hitting her with it, and it's going off the rails. He's acknowledging that she's getting upset, and he seems to be backing off when he's realizing that she's upset about what he's saying, because it's like, you know, well, I'm losing my mind. And, you know, like, I think it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is such a bizarre moment. He is in. He's incarcerated and charged with the murder of two young girls. And he is asking his wife, like, why are you mad at me? That seemed bizarre. And saying, oh, you're not going to hurt yourself. I'm going to kill myself. Is. Is like he. He wants her to, I guess, demonstrate what he perceives as her love for him by telling him not to do that.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It seems very manipulative.

[Anya Kane]

It was highly manipulative. Yeah. Like, oh, she's crying. Oh, are you going to do anything to yourself? And she's like, no. And he's like, well, probably gonna have to do something to myself. It's not. Not quite in such a flippant tone. And he's, again, very somber, very solemn. But it's. It's. It's. It's a manipulative tactic. It's a. It's a way to control people when you are threatening that and essentially looking for their attention and affirmation and. And all of that in order to, you know, it felt very manipulative. I'm. I mean, I just. And it's like, you know, and. Yeah, I mean, not only. Not only has it come out in. In this trial that, you know, he's accused of killing these two young girls. We all knew that. But there were also discussions in some of the bizarre things he said about cheating on her, you know, being unfaithful, possibly some sort of history around sexual molestation that he's claiming. So I think in any situation, there'd be plenty for a spouse to be.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Upset about, to say the least.

[Anya Kane]

So. And then. And what's more, then he's putting her in a position where it's, you know, he's calling her and abruptly telling her these things, which puts her in an Impossible place because on the one hand is she not going to talk to him, is she going to blow him off? Or the other hand, you know, is she going to hear him and you know, that, that, that may possibly seal his fate then. So it's like, you know, didn't seem to be like a lot of empathy. I mean, he's constantly saying sorry, sorry, sorry, you know, babe, like whatever, but it's not, there doesn't seem to be any acknowledgement of like real harm.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, he's entirely focused on his needs and what he needs, especially in the short term and what he needs in the short term is for his wife to say, no matter what terrible things you've done, I accept that you did them and I still love you. That's what he needs. And he's not stopping to consider what that does to her emotionally. And he's also not stopping to consider that me doing this in this way on the phone is also going to damage me down the line. Not a good long term thinker.

[Anya Kane]

No, not at all. And in, in addition to that, it's just interesting because the turn to religion kind of preempting all of this, you know, it's, you know, trying to. Part of, part of Christianity is forgiving, forgiving others, seeking forgiveness for one's own sins and you know, in some way trying to receive absolution from that to a certain extent. And I don't know what specific denomination Richard Allen would have considered him as a part of at this time. So I mean there's different specifics depending on that. But yeah, it's just interesting. It doesn't seem to be, you know, seemed to be someone who did express at times sympathy for the families of the girls and expressed remorse around what he did to the girls and what he did to them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But what he says he did to.

[Anya Kane]

Them, what he says he did to them. But it's, it's like, I don't know it, it definitely is a lot of focus in internally about a lot of it seems to come down to. And it's interesting that Kathy is the one who sent him the Bible and seemingly the one who encouraged him to use religion as a way to cope with his circumstances and, and seek God and, and seek and seek, you know, finding his faith. It's interesting that he's almost using then some of that which almost more as a lever to get her to give him what he wants, which is her absolution, you know, if he, if he did it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

So I just find that odd. It's Almost like he's using that as kind of a way to talk to her about it. I don't know. Or he found if sincerely and is trying to seek absolution. I don't know. I mean, I can't. I can't know. But it's just a lot. A lot of it just seems to stem from this family dynamic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So. So at the moment, we were now done with the recordings of phone calls. There'll be another one a bit later. And McLeland is asking some questions in direct examination of Master Trooper Brian Harshman, who had the unenviable job of listening to all these recordings. And he asked Harshman, by listening to all these recordings, have you gotten a sense of Richard Allen's speech patterns and demeanor? And after the defense made an objection that was overruled, Harshman indicated that Richard Allen seemed calm, subdued and solemn. His rate of speech is. In these calls is. His rate of speech. And his tone is very similar to when he speaks to them. He seems very placid. He does not seem to be under duress in any way. Life.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. These. These conversations just sounded like normal conversations. If you remove the words and put other words in. It was the same tone and cadence. It could be about something normal if. Minus Kathy crying, you know, it. That was what was so striking about them, how normal and banal they were. And even, like, things like. I don't know. Like, there was one. I think the last one they did we haven't gotten into yet. That, like, had such a banal ending. It was just, like, so bizarre. But, you know. I mean. Yeah. And he's basically saying, like, I listened to all these calls. Some of the. Some of the ones where he doesn't confess sound very similar. It's not like he's overtly, in a very meaningful, outward way, behaving really abnormally and then doing this. Because I think if that were the case, you could really make a case for, like. Well, listen, maybe he's having some kind of specific episode right now. Look, he's. He's speaking rapidly. He's yelling. He's. He's. He's doing. He's showing all these different emotions.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, you're saying clear. In a very clear way. What I was struggling to say earlier, which is that when he. There's no tone of upset, there's no signs of duress when he's saying these extraordinary things, he is talking in the same tone and manner is when he's talking to them about anything else. We heard just a few moments of a Conversation about golf clubs by accident. And his tone and talking about the golf clubs was the same as his tone in talking about confessing to the murder of Abby and Libby.

[Anya Kane]

And it's, it reminds me back again to the other day when it was like, you know, Holman's grilling him, you know, I know you did this. Da, da, da. No, I didn't. No, I didn't. And then Kathy comes in and it's the same tone. It's the, I know you know, I didn't do this. It's just like, is weird. I mean, this is odd. You know, people. People might have a flat affect, though. So, I mean, I'm not reading that much into it, but it's something to note because it's, it's odd. It's. It's unusual. I think it's, it's definitely remarkable, but it's also. It's not evidence. I just. We're just observing things and telling them to you. And some of that's going to be our opinion. But I. I guess I was. I was expecting something a bit different from these tapes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So after this, Master Harshman says that he, I believe in August 2024, received or examined a report from Dr. Walla. This is the report in which Dr. Walla records the statements Richard Allen made to her about his activities on February 13, 2017, namely that he visited his parents in the morning. He then went out and brought a six pack of beer. He drank three of them and bundled up a bit and went to the trails where he lay in wait. He saw the girls. He followed them onto the bridge. He did something with his gun, and he believes that's when the bullet fell out. He then ordered them down the hill, thinking they were a bit older than they were. His intent was to rape them. And then he saw a van, which scared him. Seeing the van caused him to cross the creek with the girls and slice their throats. He wanted to be sure they were dead. He covered them with branches and he made his way back to his own vehicle, carefully avoiding the trails. And Harshman said that when he saw that in the report, the detail about the van stood out to him because he. Obviously no one other than the killer would have seen that van. And so that prompted him to investigate whether or not there could have been a van in that area. Do you want to talk about that a bit?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. First, though, I want to say something about the bullet because you might be thinking, well, if the bullet fell out on the bridge, that doesn't make any sense. But from Speaking with some folks who knew firearms a lot better than I do, I think there might be some explanations for that. It seems like bridge guy racked the gun while he was on the bridge. And then the question is, would. Would, you know, if you racks it again later on, that could cause something to happen in terms of an unspent round. So that's sort of how I interpreted that aspect of it because again, or you could say something falls out and is put in a pocket and drop. But, I mean, I don't know if there's any evidence for that. It's just. That's one wrinkle where I'm kind of like, I wonder how that is happening at this point. Harshman. It was really dim in the courtroom today, I think, because it was a bit stormy out. It wasn't storming, but it was like cloudy outside at one point, so the skylight was less lit up. So he had. He had to break up his phone and, like, read his notes, like reread something, read some, like, what's. Read some exhibits, I think, with his, like, flashlight on his phone. So that was kind of funny. But other than that, looks like he said that he parked his vehicle at a nearby building. So that was kind of vague.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So what did Harshman do to investigate the van?

[Anya Kane]

Well, let's see. He said, let me go back to where that is. He looked at. I mean, he was trying to dig in to. So this is a gravel drive, of course, it's an access road that partially goes under the Monon High Bridge. Right, right. And he looked for reports about, like, who might be on that road. He found, you know, the home. So that. That's an access road that leads to one specific house where Brad Weber lives. He did a BMV check on Weber and found that he owned a 2000 Ford Econoline van that was white at the time. And he looked at old reports that Weber did with other officers, and he looked up his work history as well, which had him on that day clocking in at 5:41am and out at 2:02pm he worked at Subaru. And then also Harshman looked at Google Maps in order to sort of like a couple of times at different times throughout the day and on several different days in order to get kind of a general sense of how long it would take Weber to get from Subaru to his house. And that resulted in, he believed in the afternoon it would take one about maybe 20 to 25 minutes more on the 24, 25 side of things. And McLean asked him, you know, were there reports that mentioned Weber's van?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he said, no, what's the significance of that?

[Anya Kane]

Well, if Richard Allen had access to his discovery.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So if they were, you're. In other words, if it was mentioned in police reports, Richard Allen might have had access to those police reports and would have been able to include that detail in a phony confession. But since it wasn't mentioned in police reports, Richard Allen did not have access to that detail. And so the fact that he would include it is an argument in favor of it being an actual confession.

[Anya Kane]

Also, you know, I mean, I would argue that, like, it seems hard to believe that Richard Allen was cobbling together some phony story because he was eating his discovery and, like, putting it in the toilet and doing all manner of things to it. But even if he just had, you know, brief access to it, you could say that, well, maybe. Maybe there's something there, but it's not in the reports. And more so it's not public. There's no reports about it. You know, it's not. It was. It was not scooped or anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's a. Basically, Harshman explained how he did the investigation to establish that the Dr. The van seen by Richard Allen, according to Richard Allen, was in fact, Brad Weber. I think at this point, they played again the. They played the enhanced version of the complete Bridge Guy video. So once again, everyone in the courtroom who had just heard all of these phone calls with Richard Allen now heard again the voice of Bridge Guy saying, guys down the hill. And McLeland asked Harshman the obvious question, and Harshman said that the voice of Bridge Guy is the voice of Richard Allen.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. And it sounds. It sounded like. It sounded exactly like him. To me. It's a minor. It's a minor thing ultimately, because it is just an impression and it's not evidence, but it was, I thought, pretty powerful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree.

[Anya Kane]

Now we got to Brad Rosie's cross examination. He opens, he opened broad, saying, well, there were 14,000 tips, weren't many people's voices, weren't many people tipped in as Bridge Guy. Many people's voices compared. And Harshman's response was, I don't know. I joined this in 2020. You know, I'm not looking into all those tips. And, yeah, they talked about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Brad Rosie asked, do you believe Brad Weber when he says he was the driver of that van? And Brian Harshman indicated he did. And he indicated that Brad Weber being the driver of that van was supported by what Harshman referred to as the eyewitness account. Of Richard Allen.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And he also asked him about. He was. Asked him, did you review all the reports with Brad Weber? And he said he did. And then he asked specifically about ones with Agent Poole and somebody named Guti, who Agent Pool, I believe is an FBI agent who is assigned to the deli case for a time. So it sounds to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, Kevin, or if you have a different thought, I suppose we don't know if I'm wrong. A ride. But it sounds to me like, you know, what, what, what I'm hearing here is that there's going to be some report that the defense is going to bring up that calls into question, you know, what time he got home. And the hint here is that Baldwin, Andrew Baldwin, one of the defense attorneys specifically mentioned, well, weren't you working on ATM machines that afternoon? So I'll be curious about this. Is there something where he says something like, well, I may have gone to look at some ATM machines that day, but I don't think I did. Like, what exactly is said? You know, the most important thing is going to be what. What do. What does. You know, what do the earliest reports say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I would look at what the earliest reports say. Rosie also was saying, well, okay, so it takes 20 to 25 minutes for him to drive home, but who's to say he immediately went to his car? Maybe he stopped and talked to some of his buddies. Maybe on the way home, he stopped by the gas station or ran a few errands, really trying to do everything they can to discredit or raise doubt about this van report because they know how bad it is for them and their cause. He also started trying to bring up, oh, you know, Brad Weber, he had a handgun, you know, wasn't he a suspect? And that was objected to. He asked Harshman, did you wonder if Brad Webber was involved after you put his van there at that time? And Harshman said, no.

[Anya Kane]

So there was a break at one point, and then the cross resumed. But at one point McLeland objected to him to. To Brad Webb. I'm not. To Brad. To Brad. Rosie talking about, like, you know, what if. What if I told you, you know, like, that his. His information was contradictory and McLean said, quote, it miscar. He's mischaracterizing what's in the report. Court, end quote. And quote, if Brad Weber is not a credible human being, would your theory of that time, would your theory of the timeline change, end quote. So it's interesting. It's, you know, it's certainly this defense team, it's like, it's obviously not enough to try to impeach or discredit Brad Weber. He's got to become suspect number one, obviously, here. And I think that's interesting. And especially, like, listen, I mean, we're not members of a jury. We can just tell you what we think. And what I think is that I've heard a year of Odinism, and I know that they are currently trying to get Odinism back into the case. So suddenly acting like Brad Weber is, you know, the public enemy number one is just kind of like, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Harshman told Rosie that he believes Richard Allen is still a person who needs to be watched for his safety. There was a discussion about whether or not Richard Allen poses a threat to others. There was a reference to an incident in Westville where Richard Allen spat on a staff member and put a pin in this, because the issue of whether or not Richard Allen is possibly representing a threat to others comes back to dominate the afternoon session in a really big way. Harshman said that he thinks Richard Allen struggles to be alone because Richard Allen needs constant attention, and he does whatever he thinks he needs to do to get that attention, like banging on the. On the wall with his head in order to get someone to come back to him and talk to him. At one point, Rosie just started talking.

[Anya Kane]

And, yes, I remember this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And prosecuted McLean. It finally just says, your honor, what's the question? And Judge Gold looks baffled and says, I don't know. And there was laughter in the courtroom.

[Anya Kane]

Nobody knew.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think even Rosie knew.

[Anya Kane]

I don't think Rosie knew either. I mean, like, he just talked. Can I just say the part where he just started going at Harshman for doing his job? Like, you get alerts when he sends a message, don't you? Yes. Like, you're tracking him, you know, really closely, and you're listening to his calls. It was like. Like, I get what he was trying to do. He's trying to say his prison conditions are so horrible because people are listening into his calls. But. Well, we can talk about redirect later. But it. Yeah, that. It was just like. I don't know. I thought. I thought Harshman did a good job. He was just very, like, matter of fact, very, very nonplussed, you know, just kind of like, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, but like, he had a good demeanor on the stand, I thought.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. You talked about redirect. So redirect begins after lunch by playing the call that kind of got lost in the technological problems. Earlier in the day, this is. Was this May 17, 2023? Is that the date or is it March 17? My handwriting is very bad. What do you have?

[Anya Kane]

I. We jumped ahead a lot, I think, but there was some stuff I might want to. Oh, go ahead, Go back to. Because it's. This is interesting because this caught. This got spread all over online by certain individuals. But at one time, it was being put out there that because of statements made by the defense alluding to this, that Richard Allen was confessing to having shot the girls and done other things that certainly didn't happen. This is a very. So this is important because, again, some folks, you know, even reported on this. You know, he was, you know, he's saying he shot them. And listen, this a big tell that you have a false confession on your hand is that false information is included in the confession. So I don't even know why Rosie brought this up, but he brings up, you know, didn't he say he shot the girls? And Harshman comes back with, quote, that came from an inmate companion. There's no recording or video of him saying that, end quote. He also disagreed with Rosie's contention that there's falsehoods in the confessions, saying, again, so this is what I've been saying for a while, because I feel like that would have been an absolute gift to the defense for them to trot out and be blasting constantly. It would be a great point for them to make because they could say, look, he's here staying. He's rambling and telling Kathy how he shot them. He. No, they weren't shot. He's just. He's out of his mind and he's saying whatever. And that would have been, to me, a huge win for them. But instead, you know, people who haven't covered this for a long time do not understand this, but this defense team has a history of writing checks that bounce, and this is one that bounced because some inmate companion going and like, you know, hearing e, you know, like mishearing or maybe passing it along through the prison grapevine and getting a detail wrong is certainly significantly less good for the defense than something where it's coming from his own lips. So I felt it was important to say that. I thought it was funny. At one point, Rosie started trying to make this a thing. Oh, the Weber end of the bridge. Did you catch that? It's the Weber end of the bridge. Again, emphasizing Weber. You know, he. He makes a big deal about, well, you know, how can anyone. How could bridge guy who. Again, it seems like half the Time they're defending bridge guy as opposed to Allen, which is interesting. He talks about in the bridge in the video, you know, how can that bridge guy have been lying in wait? Because he's walking on the bridge. We don't know he was lying in wait. And it's like, okay, like Harshman's like, quote, the girls walk past him. He could have been lying in wait, getting behind them. It's a pretty obvious point to make.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a pretty obvious point to make.

[Anya Kane]

And then he, you know. Yeah, I just thought that was kind of. I just like, why do they make points like that? And then just like sound ridiculous and they can be explained away and then, yeah, they talk about they. I guess they go on and we can kind of go back to recross, I think. Oh, and yeah, hard to handle in prison. And then this was interesting. Harshman said in the response to the questions about his bad behavior in prison, quote, I would direct you to talk to them about it because I think they have a different opinion. That's about the prison staffers who've had to deal with this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And again, put a pin in that.

[Anya Kane]

Put a pin. Put a big pin in that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Are we ready for this phone call?

[Anya Kane]

I think we are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is this May 17th or March 17th?

[Anya Kane]

I believe this is May 17th. Oh, can I just read one more quote?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Kane]

Quote, this is about his behavior. Quote, he was banging his head on the wall because no one would talk to him. And he was frustrated. And then he became even. This is not end of the quote, but paraphrasing. He became even more frustrated when no one would talk to him. Even the. The. Even. Despite the fact he was injuring himself by lightly tapping his head on the wall, which ultimately he did so much that he did hurt himself and his face became swollen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Kane]

All right, so let's go to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is this May 17th or March 17th?

[Anya Kane]

Uhhuh. It's May 17th.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay. This is the May 17th, 2023 call between Richard Allen and his mother, Janice. Allen begins with Janice saying, hi, Hello. Richard Allen says, I'm here. She says, how are you? He says, all right, I guess. She says, it's good to hear your voice. Richard Allen replies to that by saying, did Kathy tell you I did it? Janice responds, well, we're not going to discuss this. Okay. Are you here? He says, I'm still here. She says, we love you. You know that, don't you? He says, regardless. She says, yes. He says, you know, if Kathy's okay. She, Janice, assures him that Kathy is okay. Richard Allen says, I've been worried you guys weren't going to love me because I said I did it. Janice says, ricky, you're not in a good place, and we love you. Just saying it doesn't mean you did it. He says, it does, and I did. She says, rick, don't talk like this. They're just messing with you. I just know you don't have it in you to do something like this.

[Anya Kane]

Did he say at some point, no, mom, they're not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have him replying to that by saying, mom, I wouldn't tell you I did it if I didn't. She says, if they're messing with your meds, you would, but we're not going to talk about the case. And Richard Allen says, so if I did it. So if I did do it, you wouldn't love me anymore? And she replies, I would always love you, no matter what. Nothing will make me stop loving you. And that's the end of my notes.

[Anya Kane]

Then they talk about. She talks about letters. She's written them every day. And. And he says, great, that's something else to share with my therapist. And then she remarks, oh, they're. Are they letting you see her again? And he indicates that they've been letting her. Him see her every day. And he. They kind of like, all right, well, I'll let you go tell everyone else I love them. That's where the. That's where the strangeness comes in for me, because it's like all this weird discussion of this stuff in the back and forth. But then it's kind of like this normal ending of like, well, tell everyone I said hi. You know, it's like, yeah. What do you think. What do you make of the fact that both Janice Allen and Kathy Allen were repeating this idea that. That, you know, he was being drugged, brainwashed, whatever, in prison. That was the reason that this was happening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I guess everyone looks for a reason not to believe something you don't want to believe. And maybe someone raised that is a possibility.

[Anya Kane]

I just find it interesting because I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don'T feel it's realistic.

[Anya Kane]

I don't think it's realistic. But also, I mean, well, listen, he was injected with Hal doll sometimes because of his behavior. That's documented that that was brought up at trial. But I think, you know, the lawyers on his side, the defense attorneys are certainly capable of making those arguments themselves about his prison conditions leading to this. And I'd be really con. I'd be really interested in their portion of this trial now that. Now that it's their, you know, it's their time to present. It's their time to put on a case. What do they have to say about that? Are they making specific allegations that they can kind of show and say, here's what was happening. They were doing this to this medication and throwing this in the mix, and it was having this reaction. And here, because they're allowed to do that, they can do that. You know, people who make arguments for them online seem to forget that or think that they. They just forgot, but they are. They can argue that, they can put on experts, they can do all of it. And so that would be something to bring up and that would be something to certainly clarify. I just find it interesting that everyone was sort of in lockstep at this point of basically ignore Richard because of this specific reason. And I just wonder where it came from.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So then Harshman, as Anya mentioned during the cross, Rosie tried to suggest it was very unusual for Richard Allen to be subject to this kind of monitoring of his calls. And Brian Harshman said, no, it's common for people who are incarcerated to be subject to this kind of monitoring. And then they got to this issue of Richard Allen, whether or not he has been violent. And as we all know, for the last couple of months, Richard Allen indicated he was very unhappy being in a prison that's within the Indiana Department of Corrections. So back in early August, he was moved to a jail in Cass County. And we've been led to believe that this, this change is supposed to been very, very good for him and the conditions there are supposed to be so much better. But the question was asked, is he still having situations where he is violent, even at Cass County Jail? And Harshman said, yes, there have been times where he has been violent there and needed to be restrained. He said, well, as a matter of fact, fact, just over our lunch break, I saw a video taken from Cass County Jail, and it showed Richard Allen screaming loudly, pounding on the door of his cell and telling the guards he is going to kill them. And Nick McLean wanted the jury to.

[Anya Kane]

See this video because Brad Rosie earlier had said, well, why don't we see the videos of Richard Allen calling his mother and wife? Because wouldn't that give us more context about these calls and Nicol McLeland at this point? That's a great idea.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, you're talking about him not being a threat to people. Let's watch a video of this. The defense, you would not be shocked to hear, was very unhappy with this idea. There was a long sidebar with the Noise machine. And that Judge Gull came out and told the jury, guess what? You guys can have another break. And she said, this video is 30 minutes long. It's not, not clear if the defense has seen it. They want to see it, so let's let them go see it. So they went to go watch it for 30 minutes.

[Anya Kane]

We're all hanging out. We're all just wandering around the courtroom.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I, I think it took them a little bit longer than 30 minutes. They came back finally looking very upset.

[Anya Kane]

So, yeah, they did not look happy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So just the description of the video that we have makes it sound not good for them. But whatever is actually on that video must be even worse because they look very, very, very unhappy. There's another sidebar.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. We literally come back and they, they go on the record and then sidebar.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so then at this point, Judge Goal says, okay, I'm gonna go into my chambers. I'm going to watch this video. So she's gone for 30 minutes at least. And then I think there's like, another sidebar.

[Anya Kane]

There were so many sidebars today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so then the decision is made that at least for now, this video is not going to be shared. I'm not sure if that's a permanent decision, but at least for the moment, this video is not going to be seen by the jury. And again, when I, I. Even after they got that decision, the defense attorneys looked very, very unhappy.

[Anya Kane]

When they came back with Gull, or, you know, when Gull came back and they came back, I was certain it was in based on how unhappy the defense looked.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The defense looked miserable, ashen faced. Even after they won. Even after they won the point. So that makes me wonder, maybe it's not permanent because they look so unhappy. They look so.

[Anya Kane]

So what the heck is in this video?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Whatever is in this video, I don't want to speculate.

[Anya Kane]

You all are probably pretty bad because.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You all are welcome to. Must be really, really bad because they seemed very, very determined not to let this video be seen by the jury.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And the fact that the, you know, I would have think, you know, they won the points. So you, like, come back in, like, okay, yeah, we did it. No, that was not the vibe. Another question is why the heck would Rosie ask that question? Have they just not been paying attention to what they're. Their client is doing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Why bring up, oh, let's watch videos. Why bring up, oh, he's been an angel in prison. He's. He only hurts himself when he's rolling around in his Own feces at Westville.

[Anya Kane]

You know, or prison, you know, but if he's been, you know, frankly doing stuff that he shouldn't be doing at Cass county, then that would be something for them to monitor so that then they don't get into a situation. And by this time, they should know that he is a difficult client to deal with because he has been, frankly, the star prosecution witness this whole time. You know, a large portion of the case is stuff that he has handed to the state. And this appears from the outside at least, to be yet another thing that he's doing that is making it very difficult for these attorneys to defend him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. So then the jury was brought back in, and pretty quickly we got to, oh, he MC Nick McLean wanted to bring out a fact well worth bringing out, which is that, yeah, all phone calls are monitored except for calls from attorneys. And then we had a handful of juror questions.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, yeah. And Rosie rested. No recross. Yeah, that was interesting to me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Juror question, in your experience, trooper Harshman, are people generally held before trial, mostly in jail or in prisons. And of course, the answer is j.

[Anya Kane]

There was some confusion, seemingly, with dates.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Before May 2, 2023, did you hear any confessions from him? And McLean had to clarify that. You know, the confessions go back to April. Yes, April 3rd was the first phone call confession.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you know how many vans traveled down Brad Weber's driveway? And no, said harsh. It is a private drive, and Brad.

[Anya Kane]

Weber is the only house that it really leads to. And then another one asked about the private drive and, like, how many vans were on the drive. And, you know, the answer is, we don't know. And what was the other one? Oh, kind of describing it. It's like a dirt. There's like one other exit from Weber's property. It's like a dirt trail around a cornfield.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And yeah, after this, the judge announced her decision. On Richard Allen's Google search history, it was admitted and it was shared with the jury. But at least as we left the courtroom, it hadn't been made available to the press. And after that, the state rested. So the prosecution's case is done, and now it's time for the defense to step up. And so what's interesting. What's interesting here, a number of things are interesting, but one thing, it's fun. I use fun in a very loose way, apparently. But it is interesting to see people change roles because so far we've seen the prosecution have the burden of putting on witnesses and presenting witnesses while the defense gets to try to Poke holes in the things those witnesses say. So now the tables turn and it's the defense that has the responsibility to put on witnesses and get the jury to believe them. And it is the prosecution that gets to cross examine them. So that is interesting. I think we were all very, very interested to see how the defense would begin their case because generally, you know, you like to start with pretty strong witnesses. Didn't the prosecution start with family members of the victims?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it was very powerful and emotional testimony and it kind of set the scene up for who these girls were and generally what happened to them because they were all able to recount what happened that day that they went missing and then them being found murdered. So it was very powerful. It's not necessarily like the center of the case, but it's sort of a kind of something that brings you into it and makes you realize how important this is. And I think that's, you know, what you would expect.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the first witness that the defense called is a 30 year old Cheyenne Mill. And I want to say something about her which is that very early on in her testimony Judge Gull grew upset, seems like too strong of a word.

[Anya Kane]

Concerned.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She grew concerned because it appeared as if Cheyenne was basically reading her testimony from notes she had in front of her. So she had those notes taken away and that seemed to have perturbed or annoyed Cheyenne because she mentioned it a few other times in the course of her testimony. And I think it's interesting because at other points in her testimony she would be referring to things that happened like seven years ago. Like oh, seven years ago. I don't think the police called me back as quickly as I think they should have. And that seemed to irk her. She seemed to be a person who has a lot of things that ir.

[Anya Kane]

Well, yeah, it was, this was, this was, this was a choice. Okay, let's talk about what she, she testified to as far as what she was doing 2-13-2017.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Again, first witness for the defense.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, well can we just say like the state's theory of the crime is that the, the phones, the phone of Libby, Libby German's phone stops moving at I believe 2:32.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Is that right? Stops moving, never moves again. So the girls are dead by 2:32. They're abducted around 2:13. And this is a, this is a brief attack that, you know, abduction, crossing the creek, abduction, being startled by the van, crossing the creek, murder. The phone is not moving. So 232. So if you have a witness come out and say listen, I Was there on the bridge around like 2:20, 2:30. I heard nothing. I saw nothing. That would be a pretty big deal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Cheyenne says that she thinks she probably got to the Monon high bridge about 10 to 3.

[Anya Kane]

Well, first of all, first she started. This is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, pardon me. I think she, she, she parked at the parking lot, at the mirrors lot, maybe around 10 to 3.

[Anya Kane]

Well, at first she was saying, I got there at 2:15. And I was like, whoa, okay, what are we doing? This is. This could be interesting. But. But it became clear that she was mistaken. She and her friend Shelby Hicks had been hanging out at France park, which is east of Deli. And then they decided, let's. It's a beautiful day out. Let's go to the Monon Trail as well and go to the Monon High Bridge.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And she thinks she parks around 10 till 3. She gets a call from her boyfriend at 3:12 at a time. She was on the trails. So she's on the trails and she's on the bridge well after 3pm at which time crime, if you believe the state's theory, has already occurred. And there doesn't. It's hard for me to see the value of having a witness testify who arrives at the crime scene after the crime has been completed and who doesn't seem to have noticed anything that would help us understand the crime.

[Anya Kane]

But what's also especially bizarre about this is that we've been hinted at by the defense that their theory is that the girls were in fact abducted in a vehicle and driven away via the Axis road. So how does this help that? Either because they're already gone by the point that she gets there, according to the defense's theory. Right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

So basically, this was a complete waste of time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know why we needed. She didn't witness anything of value. She. And she's talking about things. Oh, she, she goes to the end of the bridge, steps into the woods and urinates.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, she talked a lot about. There was a lot of discussion about he, her and her friend relieving themselves in the woods and smoking cigarettes on the first platform. But let's break it all down so we can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's pictures of them that they took on the bridge.

[Anya Kane]

And I, I don't know why the defense called her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Honestly, I, I don't understand why they called her. Certainly not for the, the first witness.

[Anya Kane]

A reporter near me said the same thing. They were just like, what was the point of that? You know, so, so, yeah, for the first witness especially, I think the. If I had to read between the lines. This is more of a thing about, you know, criticizing the investigation, the way it was handled. But I don't know if this is the person I would have picked for that or for my first witness. So this is. Okay. So they talk about how they walked from the, from the mirrors connection where they parked. They parked across from the MES farm and they, they go to the trail and they passed a man and a. But first they passed a man and then also a man and a woman. So they. She. She described the man as overweight, and he did not respond when she said hello. She did not provide a description of the man other than that he was overweight. And she said she knew the man and the woman. They were both on the first platform of the Monon High Bridge. The woman was Shelby Duncan and the man was Daniel Pearson. And they were having some sort of conversation. She said hello to Duncan because she knew her. And then she and Hicks kept walking by and, you know, she, they. They went across the bridge and she described as, you know, it's a. It's a scary bridge, blah, blah, blah, let's see. And they take. They get to the end of the bridge and then, you know, relieve themselves nearby, then walked back and took pictures as they went. So they took pictures on their Snapchat. One of the Snapchats is tagged at 3:49pm and that point they'd sort of made it to. Towards. Towards the, you know, end of the bridge once more. And they. That there's a. There's different photos and they show like the bridge and you know, that the timing. And then there's also an important picture, or I guess important is relative here, but of Duncan's feet dangling off the first platform of the bridge at 355. And she said they, they stayed there long enough to smoke two cigarettes each, kind of just hanging out, enjoying the weather, such and such.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that last picture on the bridge, I think you indicated was taken at 355. So I think that's like a minute before Sarah Carbaugh spots the idea of bloody man.

[Anya Kane]

So there. Part of me was wondering, okay, well, maybe they drove off at a time where they should have also seen muddy and bloody man. Maybe this is an answer to Sarah Carbaugh. But no, because they're literally on the bridge at that point. So like, okay, and then we kind of get to. I think what is the. More of the. So Ms. Mill had, you know, seemingly a lot of issues with how this was handled investigatively. She complained early on that the initial dispatcher, she. So she, she was made aware that the girls had disappeared via Facebook when someone commented on her photo. And then she called in saying, hey, I was at the trails that day. And she described the dispatcher as, quote, very disrespectful, very rude, end quote. And she gets very, very animated whenever she is talking about her issues with the investigation and how they're, how they've affected her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The dispatcher was rude and the police didn't call her back for two weeks.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I think the police were pretty busy.

[Anya Kane]

Well, okay, well, we'll get to that. But you know where. Yeah, this is a situation, like, I understand feeling frustrated. You know, people want to help. They want. They want to be taken seriously and have their information assessed. So I understand maybe having some of those emotions, I guess. You know, she noted that they didn't hear anything unusual when they were up there. Nothing out of the ordinary. No screaming, no weirdness. They didn't see anything. They saw no one. So with that in mind, it doesn't really surprise me that, like, it's good data to have that. Right. It's good data to say, you know, okay, there were a bunch of people there more of towards 3pm to 4pm that kind of area that could be.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Interesting because if there's a lot of people there in that time frame, that kind of supports the idea that the murders had already happened.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Whatever had happened, it happened. It's. It's done. Nothing's happening in the area. No one's hearing anything. So I think that's helpful data to have. And I think it's. It's good that she called it in, but from the perspective of like, assigning a detective to that, it's just, it's like negative information. It's more of like what didn't happen as opposed to something interesting that they saw. So two weeks later, they, they, you know, a police officer meets her at Indiana beach in a parking lot, and she complained that he only talked to her for a short period about her experience and then left.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And yeah, at some point, she mentions on Facebook that she was there. And so then people on Facebook, she says doer. In cross examination, Stacy Deer, one of the prosecutors, made the obvious point that the people harassing her and doxing her were not law enforcement, but just people on social media.

[Anya Kane]

And I believe, I believe her. I mean, this is something that happened to a lot of people in the Delphi case, and my heart goes out to her. She said, people are targeting her children. That's awful. And I imagine that was incredibly traumatic and upsetting. It's not fair that a lot of people who just happen to be there that day or have some sort of mild connection to the case have been harassed and hounded and been the subject of abuse online. It's like a mob mentality. And I've seen it again and again. It's not fair. And that's not right, what she went through. And so, like, that is horrible and disgusting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then in recross examination, she added, I guess, the defense team to the list of people she complained about out, because earlier she'd had to give a deposition to Rosie. And she said, well, I only knew about that deposition because thankfully Stacy Deener of the prosecutor's office called me. So she seems an odd choice for the defense at all, let alone as a first witness. Do you want to talk about.

[Anya Kane]

Well, she also said the police officer she talked to was, like, trying to antagonize her because her boyfriend was in jail at the time. Like, it was this. It just seemed like there seemed to be a lot of, like, personal issues coming out in the forefront here, which I don't feel made for a particularly compelling witness.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let me ask you this first jury question, this first jury question, the first jury question of their first witnesses. Did you see or hear any vehicles under the bridge? And the defense witness says, there's no road under the bridge. It's just water. And, of course, the defense's whole theory is there was in fact, a road under there that.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, well, there. There is an access road that goes under the bridge. And, you know, I mean, yeah, that's not exactly a super observant statement to make. And I understand that because I. That's probably something I'd miss. I'm not necessarily, like, always misobservant, especially as if I'm just, like, enjoying nature or something. But again, it just didn't feel like this witness really had much to add. And it just seemed like almost like she really wanted to be helpful and wanted to get involved. But I think the road to hell is paved with such intentions. I think this is a case where a lot of people have wanted to be involved and then maybe feel a bit resentful when their theory isn't accepted or their information is not considered important. And I get that it's a human instinct, but it just was very palpable on the stand today. And it just didn't feel, you know, it almost felt like kind of a call back to the Sarah Carbaugh testimony, except that she made it clear she really didn't want to be involved. She was also highly emotional and bit combative. But in this case, it was just like she didn't see anything. And by all accounts, and I mean all. I mean, the defense, too, nothing would have been happening. Because again, isn't the defense's contention that, that the fact that Abby's. The fact that Libby's phone wasn't moving an indicator that they were in a vehicle? So if the phone stops moving at 2:32, they're in a car, they're gone. And I'm taking the defense theory seriously here just to explain, like, why do we need to hear from Cheyenne Mill at this point? And the fact that she didn't even know that there was an access road indicates that. I don't know. It just, it's like that is the defense's whole theory. They asked her how long it took her to get across the bridge. She, she indicated that maybe, like, about 10 minutes, because it's treacherous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the second defense witness of their entire case is Teresa. Is it Liebert? Is that how you pronounce it? She was presented by Andrew Baldwin. I want to choose words carefully here. This, this was, this was very awkward for a few reasons, one of which, Ms. Lieber talked incredibly softly.

[Anya Kane]

You could. This was the quietest witness we've had by far. You could barely hear her. I could barely hear. I could see everyone slowly leaning up in their seats. I was thinking there were a couple of seats open in front of us. I was thinking, like, do we risk it and, and just move up a row?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was thinking that.

[Anya Kane]

But I didn't want to get yelled at by the judge. So we sat, stayed put, and I, I, I just, I, I can't emphasize how awkward this was because Baldwin, to his credit, was very patient and, and, you know, was very much trying to kind of coax information out of her and seemed to be having a very difficult time getting her to raise her voice or provide some of the information that he clearly wanted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it also seemed unfortunate. She says. So she lives on 625 north, or 625 West. I'm not sure.

[Anya Kane]

West, I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And she lives near the, the Weber residence, which is on a connecting road. This access road we've heard all about. She's lived there for 48 years. He had her come up to a map and say, can you pinpoint on here where Brad Webber's residence is? And she couldn't do it. And that didn't really lend a lot of confidence in her as A witness or what she had to say if you couldn't even. Because I, I think this is a.

[Anya Kane]

Witness who's lived there for 48 years. And like, listen, people can have situations and we don't know what's going on in her life and, and whatnot. And it's, you know, know, it's not a personal criticism. It's just when you have a witness like this, it really helps to be able to show, okay, they know where everything is and what's going on and they're on the ball here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She seemed confused. Yeah, you seemed very confused. And then the heart of her testimony is that on February 13, 2017, at around 8:30am she's coming home and there's a few other houses on her street. And you know how in some neighborhoods, instead of having a mailbox at every house, they have like a little section in the neighborhood where there's like three or four mailboxes. And this is, that apparently is the case here. And at 8:30 in the morning, she sees a stranger near the mailboxes, does not get a good look at him, but is convinced he is a stranger. And she told law enforcement what she saw. And I, I, I make the obvious point that this happens at 8:30 in the morning. And it's, it was about 2:13, so close to six hours later when the girls were abducted a short distance away. And I'm not sure there is any reason whatsoever to connect those two incidents.

[Anya Kane]

You have to separate in true crime and in police investigation and frankly in defense work, criminal defense work, the signal from the noise and that means focusing on the most important things rather than things that just might be some, you know, maybe you don't recognize. Maybe, you know, Kevin's, you know, if you shave your beard off, maybe so maybe a neighbor might look at lens over. Who's that guy? Oh, oh, that's Kevin. But maybe if they're just driving by really quickly, they're like, and you know, there's all sorts of things that can happen. Someone's visiting a relative, someone's just going for a walk, like there's, and when it's something that's like, maybe if it's something that's really close in time to the incident that you're looking at, maybe that takes on a new significant significance because there's that temporal proximity. But in this case, hours later, no description that she gave to the court. It's just like she didn't describe and she wasn't like, he looks like this or that. She indicated it was A very, very brief thing where she just saw him. And. And like, again, like, there's just awkward moments. Like when she was at the map, she, like Baldwin, at one point had to literally physically move her by the shoulders in order to position her for the jury. Do you remember that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do. She seemed very, very confused. I felt bad.

[Anya Kane]

It just felt like it was just a weird.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It felt like it wasn't appropriate for her to be there. It felt. I felt bad for her.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I did, too. I just. It just. I don't know. It was like, what are they doing here? Like. Like what? Like to tell us that she saw a man that she cannot describe and thinks she didn't recognize.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At 8:30am Prosecutor Jim Latrell l did the cross examination and he did it very, very gently. He said, you know, later that afternoon, around 4pm Some girls knocked on your door looking for someone. Do you remember that? She said, no. And then he was like, well, I will make sure I understand this. This person by the mailboxes. You never saw him before or since, and you never saw his face and can't really describe him. And she says, yeah, that's correct. And then he just takes a breath and says, well, thank you for coming in. I have nothing for there.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, he was really. It was very. I mean, honestly, it was like a very nice.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was very gentle.

[Anya Kane]

It was very gentle, very gentlemanly. But also somehow the most devastating thing for the defense because it was essentially like, this isn't even worth going into on an extensive cross examination. That's what he was saying. You know, I, like, there's no point in basically ripping apart this lady who, like, doesn't seem to have much to offer here, but is also just a human being and is, you know, probably trying to do what she thinks is the right thing. It was just like. Like what. What were they thinking?

[Kevin Greenlee]

The. The jury question. There was only one. I thought it also was quietly devastating. The jury question was, well, you know, there was no school that day, so, like, couldn't it be possible this person you saw was just a high school kid? And she said no. And that. That was. That was it. That was it.

[Anya Kane]

It was. It was a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was a very, very, very, very underwhelming start for the defense. So this was the last witness of the day. And then the jury was dismissed. And then Andrew Baldwin stood before the judge and said, you know, we've asked to bring Odinism back in. Can you tell us soon whether or not we can do that? Because we need to figure out a Strategy. We need to chart a way forward.

[Anya Kane]

Can I just say something about that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That kind of paints a picture of a defense in disarray. And certainly these two as you're opening witnesses seem to confirm that. What you want to say.

[Anya Kane]

Odinism was thrown out over the summer. Correct.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Correct.

[Anya Kane]

They've had since the summer to ask for a continuance which given the fact that they put so much work into Odinism, I would have understood and, or figure out something. But why are they essentially acting like they're suddenly rudderless in the middle of trial? They chose to go to trial at this point. They chose not to continue. They chose to go full steam ahead when they knew Odinism wasn't in. So it's like suddenly, look, oh, we are sure about Odinism. Were they banking on that, that she would change her mind after that disastrous three day hearing session where it was basically just ripped apart in front of everyone? Like I'm. Odinism is not a good theory. They don't even seem to freaking understand like the basics of what Odinism even is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

And, and so, and they have, they had nothing. And, and so the fact that like this is ending with them being like, so we don't really know what to. What they like. Their client deserves a robust offense and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, if he wants one.

[Anya Kane]

If he wants one. But here's the thing. I mean we, we're, we're here and you know, they, they've been alluding to this, you know, car situation where they're abducted in a car. So fine, whatever. That's, that's something that they can build something around. Whatever. But why, why act like then like we need to know about Odinism? Because we, we don't, you know, we don't know how we're going to go forward. I mean, I don't know. It just struck me as a really odd comment and it just didn't fit any of the information we know, which is that again, this has been out for a while. They were supposed to have figured something else out or asked for a continuance.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So the first witness says, well I was there later, I didn't see anything shocking. And the second witness is, well, six hours earlier I saw someone that I can't really describe and who knows. So it, yeah, it's, it's a surprisingly underwhelming beginning for this defense team. But I mean they're just beginning. So maybe they're pull something out.

[Anya Kane]

As the carpenter said, we've only just begun.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He, he said, well, we do have a couple witnesses. We can call for tomorrow. So I, I don't know what they're going to do, but yeah, I, I.

[Anya Kane]

Don'T, I don't know why you'd call these witnesses at all, like, at all. Neither of them added anything. It was a bad start, let alone be your starting block. You know, there's certain people that maybe you look into, you depose and then you say, all right, well, thank you for coming in like Luttrell did. You don't, I don't know it if the goal is to confuse the jury. Well, some of those questions indicated a level of skepticism that I would be upset about if I were on the defense team. But you never know. I mean, maybe again, everyone keeps saying let's throw enough at the wall, see what sticks. Yeah, I guess so. But, you know, it helps to have some forethought and to maybe mix up some concoctions that you know are going to probably stick at least a little bit.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So are we done?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I think we're done. All right, thanks everyone for, thanks for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I have a feeling that tomorrow someone else will be joining that two timer wing.

[Anya Kane]

All right. All right, thanks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Kane]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records request, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Kane]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair. Wonderful Silver Linings Handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy, well being like he does it all this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space. Just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to, like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On a personal level, Jason is, frankly a great guy.

[Anya Kane]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's been a really good friend to us. And so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I think, I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show. He's been on our show a couple times. We've been on his show. He's a terrific guest. I, I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always, I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this, that really resonated. Like, I do quote him in, in, in conversation sometimes, because he really has a good grasp of different, complicated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She quotes him to me all the time.

[Anya Kane]

I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so Right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think, and, and you like us, you, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of, of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough, and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like, if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can, can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's, it's compassionate, it's affirming. But I, I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you'll all really enjoy it. Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

And he's got a great community that, that he's building, so we're really excited to be a part of that. We're really, we're fans of the show. We love it. And we would strongly encourage you all, all just check it out, download some episodes. Listen, I think you'll, you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to podcasts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wherever you listen to podcasts. Very easy to find.

[Anya Kane]

Absolutely.