The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Jury Deliberations: Days One Through Three

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet Episode: The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen on Trial: Jury Deliberations: Days One Through Three
Release Date: November 10, 2024

Hosts:

• Áine Cain - Journalist
• Kevin Greenlee - Attorney

---

1. Introduction and Context

The episode opens with a content warning due to the sensitive nature of the discussion: "This episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls as well as issues around mental health, including suicide." ([00:58])

Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the ongoing trial of Richard Allen, who stands accused of the Delphi murders—the brutal killing of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

2. Overview of Jury Deliberations

As the jury has been deliberating for three days, Áine and Kevin explore what this period signifies in the judicial process.

Kevin Greenlee remarks:
"As we all know, the jury in the murder case against Richard Allen for the murders of Liberty German Abigail Williams has been deliberating for all or parts of three days and we're all eagerly awaiting what their decision may be. And we're all eagerly hoping they do in fact make a decision. And so we're Going to be talking about it." ([02:07])

3. Possible Outcomes

a. Conviction

If Richard Allen is convicted, the process moves towards sentencing. Kevin explains:

"If he was convicted, she would likely set a date for him to be formally sentenced, and that would likely be, say, 30 days or so from now... These pre-sentence reports are not made public. So you and I will not be permitted to see that. And that's not unusual, that's not unique to this case. That's just the norm." ([24:05])

Potential Next Steps Post-Conviction:

• Preparation of a pre-sentence report detailing mitigating and aggravating factors.
• Possibility of appeals by the defense to challenge the conviction based on alleged trial errors.

b. Acquittal

An acquittal would mean Richard Allen is found not guilty, invoking the principle of double jeopardy—preventing the state from retrying him for the same crime.

Áine Cain highlights:
"If Richard Allen is acquitted, he could still face civil liability from the families." ([12:17])

Kevin Greenlee adds historical context:
"O.J. Simpson is acquitted of the murders... but subsequently, the families of the victims filed a civil suit against him for wrongful death." ([12:17])

c. Mistrial (Hung Jury)

A hung jury occurs when jurors cannot reach a unanimous decision, leading to a mistrial. This outcome allows the prosecution the option to retry the case.

Kevin Greenlee explains unanimity requirements:
"In the United States, we require of our juries that they must be unanimous in their verdict... If they reach a deadlock, they will typically go to the judge and say, hey, we've reached a deadlock." ([15:12])

Kevin further discusses implications of a mistrial:
"If he got acquitted, they would not be investigating other people because in their mind, the case is solved... I imagine we would do this all over again... I hope that the jury does what it's there to do and reaches a verdict." ([19:34])

4. Public Speculation and Misconceptions

The hosts address common public misconceptions regarding jury deliberation times and outcomes.

Áine Cain notes:
"Everyone wants a cookbook recipe for this thing. Like, how did the jurors look? Were they smiling? Were they frowning?" ([19:57])

Kevin Greenlee counters the notion of interpreting jury behavior:
"There's no way we can know what's going on in that jury room at all." ([34:39])

5. Legal Insights and Jury Dynamics

The discussion delves into the nature of jury decision-making and potential reversible errors that could influence appeals.

Kevin Greenlee discusses reversible errors:
"These are errors that are so major that they would affect the outcome of a trial." ([27:37])

He provides an example involving the admissibility of certain videos:
"If the judge allowed videos that didn’t directly pertain to the crime but painted the defendant in a negative light, the appellate team could argue for a new trial based on this being a reversible error." ([29:49])

6. Appeals Process

In the event of a conviction, the defense may pursue an appeal to challenge the trial's outcome.

Kevin Greenlee outlines the appeals process:
"When someone is convicted, especially of a major crime, there is almost always some sort of an appeal... They would look for things that they think were done incorrectly and things that were done incorrectly that were serious enough to affect the outcome of the trial." ([25:21])

Áine Cain clarifies the rarity and challenges of successful appeals:
"It's not super common." ([32:28])

7. Concluding Thoughts and Future Episodes

The hosts express their anticipation for the jury's verdict and acknowledge the uncertainty surrounding the deliberation process.

Áine Cain reflects on the emotional weight of the trial:
"When you have a big case like this, emotions are high... It’s impossible to do so." ([19:57])

They also tease future episodes that will address topics like jury nullification, aiming to answer listener questions and provide deeper legal insights.

Kevin Greenlee suggests:
"Let's do jury notification our next episode." ([33:50])

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Kevin Greenlee ([02:07]):
  "We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases."

• Áine Cain ([11:02]):
  "I've been made aware by people sending me various links that there have been a lot of high profile acquittals that occur quickly and high profile convictions that take a long time."

• Kevin Greenlee ([27:37]):
  "No such thing as a perfect trial. Anything that human beings do has errors in it."

• Áine Cain ([19:57]):
  "I'm not convinced that’s what's going to happen, to be honest... Employers trying to read into everything and it's impossible to do so."

• Kevin Greenlee ([34:39]):
  "There's no way we can know what's going on in that jury room at all."

Conclusion

In this episode of Murder Sheet, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide a thorough examination of the jury deliberations in the Richard Allen Delphi murder trial. They unpack the potential outcomes—conviction, acquittal, or mistrial—and delve into the legal nuances that accompany each scenario. By addressing public misconceptions and offering legal insights, the hosts equip listeners with a deeper understanding of the justice system's complexities. The episode serves as both an informative piece for true crime enthusiasts and a thoughtful analysis for those interested in the intricacies of legal proceedings.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

The holidays are all about sharing with family meals, couches, stories, Grandma's secret pecan pie recipe, and now you can also share a cart. With Instacart family carts, everyone can add.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What they want to one group cart from wherever they are.

[Anya Cain]

So you don't have to go from room to room to find out who.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Wants cranberry sauce or whether you should.

[Anya Cain]

Get mini marshmallows for the yams or collecting votes for sugar cookies versus shortbread. Just share a cartoon and then share the meals in the moments. Download the Instacart app and get delivery in as fast as 30 minutes plus enjoy free delivery on your first three orders. Service fees and terms apply.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's more to imagine when you listen, so let your imagination soar with Audible. Audible has audio titles from every genre that will inspire you to imagine new worlds, possibilities and ways of thinking. As an Audible member, you get to choose one title a month to keep from their entire catalog. Enjoy an exciting reawakening of a beloved classic with the Audible Original David Copperfield by Charles Dickens Produced by Academy Award winning director Sam Mendes. Starring Shudi Gatwa, Helena Bonham Carter and Theo James, this adaptation breathes new life into a familiar tale. New members can try audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.comimagine or text imagine to 500500 that's audible.comimagine or text IMAGINE to 500 500t mobile 5G Internet keeps getting better.

Boost your connection to harder to reach places with Home Internet plus and get Internet right where you want it with wi fi that reaches the attic.

[Anya Cain]

I finally have a home office.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Get a free upgrade to T Mobile Home Internet plus while supplies last. Home Internet plus starts at 50 bucks a month with autopay and any voice line. Check availability@t mobile.com home Internet during congestion, customers on this plan may notice speeds lower than other customers and further reduction of using greater than 1.2 terabytes per month due to data prioritization after $20 bill credit plus $5 per month without autopay debit bank account required, regulatory fees included for qualifying accounts 35 connection charge applies.

[Anya Cain]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of the brutal murder of two girls as well as issues around mental health, including suicide.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So as we all know, the jury in the murder case against Richard Allen for the murders of Liberty German Abigail Williams has been deliberating for all or parts of three days and we're all eagerly awaiting what their decision may be. And we're all eagerly hoping they do in fact make a decision. And so we're Going to be talking about it.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Deli Murders. Richard Allen on trial jury deliberations, days one through three.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's start by talking about some housekeeping things. Some business, as a matter of fact. And it's literally big business, because when we were in Delphi for this trial and the trial was going on basically, as I think we may have alluded to once or twice in passing, we'd have to be at the courthouse in line in the middle of the night through the entire day, and no break for lunch, and then have to go and record. And so because of this, we did not get the opportunities we hoped to have to visit some local businesses. But now that the trial has ended, there's some more flexibility in our schedule. And so we have been fortunate enough to visit some really amazing and terrific businesses in Deli, and I think Anya wants to mention a few of them by name.

[Anya Cain]

We actually got to eat several times at the Buttermilk Biscuit Company and Coffee Shop.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The plan was for us to eat there once, but it's really, really good. The biscuits are huge. I may be exaggerating a bit, but I think the biscuits were actually larger than the apartment we lived in in Brooklyn. Yeah, really big biscuits. And they are delicious.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, really good. They got good waffles. And they're very nice in there, and I really like it. It's a cozy ambiance. Love the Biscuit Company and the buttermilk. Buttermilk Biscuit Co. And Coffee Shop. Just a great place in Delphi. And I think they opened up pretty recently.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I believe they did.

[Anya Cain]

They're hitting the ground running. We had a good time at the sandwich shop. They always have a nice grilled cheese.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That I like, great burgers, great fries.

[Anya Cain]

And then the Rock Shop or Bill's Rock Shop, we went there. Look at rocks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's. It's. And also buy some. So we do sometimes go to businesses that don't involve food. And this one, very friendly people. They had a variety of really attractive rocks and stones for, frankly, too cheap a prices. They should be charging a lot more for them. They're beautiful. And we did buy some for our home.

[Anya Cain]

And also we didn't go in, but we met a really nice person from the flower shop in Delphi. Everything's the shop. I like the simple names. I like that because it keeps. Keeps track of everything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that reminds me, we're not plugging our T shirts, but when we did. Isn't that the Murder Sheet Shop?

[Anya Cain]

It's the Murder Sheet Shop. So we're. We're continuing the honored tradition. But yeah, the really lovely lady from the flower shop. Sorry, we did not go in, but we plan to. Well, I mean, the reason we're doing this mostly is because we're just wandering around waiting for a verdict. Right? I mean, we're just kind of wandering, literally wandering the streets. So we've run into a lot of nice people, come up and say hi. Sometimes people apologize for coming up and say hi. Don't. Don't apologize. Just come up and say hello to us. It. We always enjoy chatting with folks. You're not going to bother us. We're literally just wandering the streets. I cannot emphasize this enough. That's our lives now. We went from waiting on the street to get into a building to just being outside a lot. But. But we have more freedom to come and go, which is nice. Our lives have changed a lot.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm just waiting for you to finish this. This.

[Anya Cain]

It's been quite a time. But so as.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As we know, the jury has been deliberating for several days and people are saying, what does it mean? What does it mean? And I will be blunt and direct and tell you we don't know. It could literally mean anything. So good night, everybody.

[Anya Cain]

That's the end of the show. We. We've all kind of heard different ideas or schools of thought on like, you know, X number of days or hours means X for the defense or, you know, whatever, the reality is that even though my kind of conventional thinking coming into this would be quick equals good for prosecution and slow equals good for defense, I've kind of like, I've been made aware by people sending me various links that there have been a lot of high profile acquittals that occur quickly and high profile convictions that take a long time. And then also there can be a mistrial due to a hung jury. So it's like we have no way of knowing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We have no idea what it means. And obviously we're all aware that a hung jury leading to a mistrial would be most unfortunate. Anja and I were in that courtroom every day. We saw what this trial did to the families and to the people connected to this case, all of whom care very, very deeply about this and invested so much into it on both sides. Frankly, And I think the prospect that they might have to go through it all over again is something that is quite upsetting to contemplate and the jury's.

[Anya Cain]

Job is to figure it out. So, yeah, I think so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would hope that the jury would do its job and reach a decision. And I just also want to say again, we literally don't know what this means. And I've had some experiences in my life that I won't go into now where I have faced the possibility of catastrophic news. And sometimes it's come and sometimes it hasn't come. And I have found that dreading it or worrying about it or trying to guess about it before it happens is ultimately not super helpful. So if, if it is a hung jury, there would be plenty of time after that to try to figure out why that happened and what it meant. I think now I'm just going to try to go forward assuming that the jury would do what it was charged with.

[Anya Cain]

It's a wild assumption in my opinion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But you know, in a silly way, it's, it's like in, when you're in court when the judge comes in and when the jury comes in, everybody, the bailiff would then say, all rise. And people stand up and there's a lot of people who, oh, they see movement in the hallway and they'll stand up before the bailiff comes in. And, and maybe I'm just lazy. I always wait for the bailiff and right now I'm just waiting for the jury. And I'm not going to get too upset or frantic with worry. And another thing to keep in mind is we've all had occasions in our life where we've had to make hugely important, life altering decisions. Maybe it's about who we marry, maybe it's about, do I buy this house? Do I buy this car? And sometimes when people make those choices, they go on instinct. And sometimes when people make those choices, they really want to barrel down into it and get to learn all of the details and analyze it to make sure they are making the absolute correct decision. This decision that this jury is facing does not directly impact their own lives, but it does impact a lot of other lives. So it would not be surprising that after a month long trial with a ton of testimony presented that they want to take the time to barrel down and get deep into the details and try to figure it out.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, so I want to talk a little bit about what the different outcomes could be.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

Because actually we've gotten some questions about this and it's, it's it's understandable because it's not something necessarily. People who are not well versed in the legal system would never necessarily know about. Like, we, we, we were talking to somebody the other day when they're talking about, like, oh, well, if there's an acquittal, you know, what would the next step look like? And it's important to note that there, there are just different kind of paths for, for each one. So let's start off with a conviction.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, you mentioned acquittal.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, let's start off with acquittal. If Richard Allen is acquitted, let's say of all four counts of, of murder, then that's it. Double jeopardy takes place. There's. Double jeopardy means that Richard Allen can never be again tried for this crime. Yes, there are. There. He could, he could go outside, have a press conference where he admits in detail to, to doing the murders, and nothing would happen to him because that's, that's our right under the, you know, the way our legal system works, you can't, you cannot, the government cannot just keep trying somebody for the same crime if they keep getting acquitted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If someone's been acquitted, they no longer face criminal liability for that. A famous example that comes to mind is the people who murdered Emmett Till back in the 1950s. They were acquitted of that crime, and then some of them sold their story to Life magazine, basically confessing to the crime, and they faced no more criminal charges for that. Now, it's a little bit confusing. I don't mean to muddy the waters here, but that only applies to criminal charges. So in the O.J. simpson case, O.J. simpson is acquitted of the murder of his wife and Ron Goldman, but subsequently, the families of the victims filed a civil suit against him for wrongful death. So if you're acquitted of a criminal charge, that doesn't mean you are also therefore shielded from any civil liabilities for those events. So in theory, if Richard Allen is acquitted, he could still face civil liability from the families. I don't imagine he has much money.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I just want to put it out there as a possibility.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but as far as any next steps go, you know, I'm sure there would be a lot of clamoring from certain Internet agitators that, you know, that their person of interest should be arrested next. But in reality, the government is supposed to. The state is supposed to go for people that they can find probable cause for, arrest them, and then, you know, the, the case kind of goes from there. It's not a matter. It's not like, oh, well, let's, let's, you know, kind of do a post mortem conviction of Ron Logan. Now, that's not how it works.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, and I'm speculating, I don't know this for a fact, but my very, very strong impression is that the investigators working this case and the, the prosecution team firmly believe that it is Richard Allen who did this. And so I would imagine that if he got acquitted, they would not be investigating other people because in their mind, the case is solved.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, the, the perpetrator's been identified and the, the legal outcome as well.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And in my mind, frankly, I think it's difficult for me to imagine them getting more ev party than they already have on Richard Allen.

[Anya Cain]

I concur. So let's talk about, what do you want to talk about next? Conviction or mistrial?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hung jury.

[Anya Cain]

So a hung jury. A hung jury. So in, in the United States, we require of our juries that they must be unanimous in their verdict. So it cannot be 11 to 1, it cannot be 10 to 2, it cannot be 8 to 4. We need all 12 voices in lockstep saying, this is what we believe. Innocent. Or rather we acquit the person or we find not guilty.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not guilty or guilty.

[Anya Cain]

Not guilty or guilty. So when we're talking about this here, one thing you can have is if you have some sort of breakdown where everyone's locked in their positions, no one's changing their mind, we've gone as far as we can go. They will typically go to the judge and say, hey, we've reached a deadlock. And what usually happens is that the judge goes back and say, hey, figure it out. It's literally, you have one job, do your job, and then sometimes that's enough to break it. Break the deadlock. People change their minds, they have conversations. Oftentimes though, that does not happen, and instead they come back and say, sorry, judge, we tried, didn't work. And in that situation, then you'd get a mistrial.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Forget one size fits all diets. With noom, you get a personalized weight loss plan that's tailored to your lifestyle. Have cravings, food fomo. Noom can help you lose weight while still enjoying your favorite foods. Noom's users love the flexible approach blending psychology and biology to help you lose weight in a way that's sustainable for you. Plus, you can rest assured, Noom's approach is grounded in science. They've published more than 30 peer reviewed scientific articles describing their methods and effectiveness. Stay focused on what's important to you. With noom's psychology and biology based approach. Sign up for your trial [e-mail] youm.

Know that feeling when your favorite brand really gets you. Deliver that feeling to your customers every time.

[Anya Cain]

Memorable moments like these are key to building your business and your brand. Brands like Hedley and Bennett use Klaviyo's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Marketing automation platform to turn their customer data into more personalized connections across AI powered email, sms analytics and more. Making Every Moment Count Build smarter digital relationships with your customers and make every.

[Anya Cain]

Moment count with Klaviyo. Learn more at K L A V.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I y o.com yes, and in that situation, because the jury didn't reach a verdict, the government would have the option of basically doing it all over again. Which means that in a couple of months, six months, a year, who knows, we would go through the entire trial all over again, probably with Judge Gull still at the helm and I would guess probably with the same attorneys. I don't know if some members of the defense team or the prosecutor, prosecutor or the prosecutor's team would bow out, but odds are it would probably be the same people.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And so in, in that case, one thing that would be interesting to look at if that happened is of course, the breakdown of who was for not guilty and who was for guilty. Now, sometimes you might have a case. Let's say this is, this is completely, let's say I'm on trial for stealing cereal. I have like Stockholm syndrome with this example right now. And, and it comes back a hung jury and it turns out that there were 11 people for not guilty and one person who did not like the cut of my jib for guilty. In that case, the prosecutor might look at that and say, oof, yikes. Maybe we'll work out a plea deal. Or maybe, maybe we'll just move on. Maybe we'll just move on and take the L, so to speak. We're not, we're not going to refile charges because obviously we almost lost this. Or it might be the opposite. Let's say there were 11 for guilty and then somehow Kevin slipped onto the jury and it was my one not guilty vote in that case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nice. You think that I'd lie for you, but go on.

[Anya Cain]

Well, we're all finding out things on this podcast, aren't we, folks? So that's when, that's when you'd have a situation where I think the prosecutor would probably feel pretty comfortable going forward, refiling charges, doing the whole thing again, where it can get nebulous, as if it's really, really like, you know, 6v6 or, you know, like, kind of. But, but I think in a case as serious as Deli, two children have been brutally murdered in a sexually motivated crime, then I, I, I don't see charges not getting refiled. I just, that seems very hard to believe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I imagine we would do this all over again. Even though there is literal expense involved to the taxpayers of Indiana, especially the taxpayers of Carroll county, and there's all sorts of emotional tolls on everyone involved, I imagine we would do it all over again and again. I'm hoping that's not what happens. I hope that the jury does what it's there to do and reaches a verdict.

[Anya Cain]

Well, you know, I'm not convinced that that's what's going to happen, to be honest. I feel like, you know, when you have a big case like this, emotions are high. You know, on the one hand, you have, you know, you're, you're viewing all these images of brutally slaughtered children, and on the other hand, you know, video of a guy freaking out in prison, emotions are high. People are being subjected to a lot of highly emotional stuff. I, I think that that can, that can have an effect on how people are sort of deliberating and dealing with, like, the logic of looking at, you know, guilt or guilty or not guilty. So I don't know. I'm not, I'm, I mean, I'm just in a place where I'm just kind of like, let's see what happens. It's, it's hard to say everyone. And I'm guilty of this, very much so. But everyone's trying to look at tea leaves. Oh, well, you know, this, this number of days of trial equals this amount of, like, everyone, everyone wants a cookbook recipe for this thing. You know, like, how did the jurors look? Were they smiling? Were they frowning? You know, and I just feel like I've said this to a couple people, but, like, the ancient Romans had all sorts of omens for various types of things. Like, you know, this many geese in the sky. If you look at a goat's stomach contents, then this is what that means. Like, they had all these rituals and things, and, like, we're all kind of becoming that way where we're trying to, you know, read into everything and it's impossible to do so. So I'm just kind of like, I do, I do think, though, that as we go into next week, you know, I think the odds of some kind of hung jury could be more heightened if they have not made a decision yet now, they could be not Making a decision, because they're all saying, hey, we want to go through everything and just really fine, tooth comb it. I mean, and that's not necessarily going to lead to a deadlock. But you could also have factions forming. You could have people saying, no, I'm not convinced. Now here's one. Here's one telltale sign for me that there could be a hung jury on the horizon. And I have a question for you, Kevin, because it's like, are we even going to see this particular omen? Jurors have the option to send to the judge questions. And so a question that might make you think, hey, they might be having some problems is if they ask something like, hey, judge, do we have to be unanimous? Or like, hey, Judge, can you, can you explain to some people what reasonable doubt means again? Like, there could. Once you start getting a bunch of those, I feel like you might start to kind of see some cracks forming in, in the 12. And I'm just curious, Kevin, if they send those questions to Judge G in this case, will we even know about that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

In theory we should. But in theory, there should have been some member of the public present when they were reviewing evidence the other day. And also it. It, as far as I know, they have written instructions which should answer some of those questions about reasonable doubt and things like that. And also my understanding is that the courtroom has basically been made into, for lack of a better word, kind of like an exhibition center where all of the exhibits in the case are laid out. So often in other cases, you might expect the jury say, oh, can we see this again? Or this again? But now they can just literally walk into the courtroom and look at those things spread out. That's my understanding.

[Anya Cain]

Except for maybe the videos.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The videos would be an exception to that, which is why they had to make a special request. And the defense was there, presumably the prosecution was there as well for that.

[Anya Cain]

So. Yeah, so. So we might not know if there's a bunch of kind of pointed questions that could indicate either way. Maybe we will, maybe we won't. We don't know. Maybe they've been there all. Maybe, maybe those questions are already been flung about. I mean, I mean, we've not heard anything, but I don't know. And I guess, like, let's talk about conviction. What would happen next after that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

If he was convicted, she would likely set a date for him to be formally sentenced, and that would likely be, say, 30 days or so from now. Because it would be important. There's a process in place where a pre sentence report is prepared and the pre sentence report, it basically contains all the information a judge would want to know or should want to know about a person before passing sentence on them. You know, here are some of the mitigating factors involved, here are some of the aggravating factors involved, here's what this person is like, so on and so forth. So there's often lots of interviews with the person in the course of preparing these pre sentence reports. Generally speaking, or almost universally speaking, these pre sentence reports are not made public. So you and I will not be permitted to see that. And that's not unusual, that's not unique to this case. That's just the norm.

[Anya Cain]

Then what would be the next step for Richard Allen's defense team? Because the road's not over for them. Even if there's a conviction.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When you get. When someone is convicted, especially of a major crime, there is almost always some sort of an appeal. That doesn't mean the appeal is well founded. That doesn't mean there's a solid basis for the appeal. But you know, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. So I imagine if there is a conviction, there will be some appeals filed likely by other attorneys. Rosie Baldwin and O.J. are more trial based attorneys. Appellate attorneys are a different breed. They specialize in appellate cases. These appellate attorneys would likely go through the entire transcript of the trial. They would look at all the motions filed prior to the trial. They would review all of the decisions Judge Gull made and everything the prosecution did, and they would try to find things that they think were done incorrectly and things that were done incorrectly that were serious enough to affect the outcome of the trial.

[Anya Cain]

So does one mistake render a successful appeal? Or does one, Rather, does one mistake equal a successful appeal? Like one minor mistake? Does a trial have to be perfect? Is there such a thing?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No such thing as a perfect trial. I think I've said this on the show before. Anything that human beings do has errors in it. Earlier in this very episode, it haunts me that I had such trouble trying to pronounce prosecutorial.

[Anya Cain]

That was really upsetting to see.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was awful. Hopefully you would all consider that to be a relatively minor error that didn't completely wreck the show for you.

[Anya Cain]

I think basically we lost most of our audience with that one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I think most people would say that's a minor error. Now, if instead I started spouting off completely wrong facts about the case and making huge mistakes, at some point you would say, kevin, we need to scrap this and just start all Over.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so it's the same sort of thing in a criminal trial. You look for what's called reversible errors. These are errors that are so major that they would affect the outcome of a trial.

[Anya Cain]

And then here's a question for folks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, and I'd like to say something here very quickly that oddly enough, in my mind at least, the ruling of judge goals that I have, the biggest issue with that is not related to public access, I think actually benefited the defense. So they're not going to be pointing out mistakes that benefit them. Should. Should we talk about that for a second?

[Anya Cain]

If you. If you want to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There was these videos. Judge Gulch chose to allow the defense to show these videos of Richard Allen in Westville supposedly being treated badly. And I believe the argument for allowing them was, oh, he was treated so badly, he went crazy and made what the defense characterized as false confessions. So they show these very edited, very artificially constructed videos to make him look like a victim. I'm not sure those should have been allowed in, but they were. And again, the argument is he was treated so badly at Westville, he, he cracked and he made confessions that weren't true. And if that's your argument, then I think she should have allowed the prosecution to show the Cass county video. Because the defense said, well, after he left Westville and went to Cass county, basically he got all better and all of this stopped. And all the bad behavior was related to his treatment at Westville and Wabash. But there were references made to a video of him at Cass county where he was threatening guards and supposedly doing other things of an upsetting nature. And the defense fought very hard to keep that from going in. And I think if they're making the argument that his behavior is affected by treatment at Westville, I think the jury had the right to see the video of him at Cass, where ostensibly he is being treated better, yet still behaving badly.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And does that make sense?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And for. From what it sounds like, you know, they made a lot of. There's a lot of emphasis on his Hal Doll injections at Westville, but it's not been brought up that he's been medicated with Hal Doll. Again, it's. It's not been brought up like they've not filed anything complaining about his treatment at Cass County. So it would definitely be interesting. And I just. Yeah, I think the fact that she allowed those in, in the way she did, where instead of watching them unvarnished, which would have taken a very long time in fairness, but we were essentially seeing Brad Rosie skipping around, like, jumping forward minutes here and there. It just seemed kind of like, okay, but. So that would be, let's say, in a reverse reality, those don't come in, but for some reason, she allows the Cass county video come in, and they are treated to seeing Richard Allen freaking out, kills, threatening people with death, all that sort of thing. You could argue that that could be reversible error because it doesn't really have anything to do specifically with the crime, and it's just making him look really scary and bad. So that would be something like a defense team or an appellate team could say, hey, this was just used to make our client look bad. It didn't really have anything. He didn't confess to anything. There was nothing in here that was similar to what happened on February 13, 2017. So therefore, you know, because this basically made it impossible for a jury to acquit him, he needs a new trial in order to get a fair shake where this is not allowed in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so that they would write that in a brief of some sort, which would be the Indiana Attorney General would have the opportunity to respond, and then appellate judges would have the opportunity to look at it. Most of those, frankly, tend to be rejected, but not all in. In. In this del. Sprawling Deli murders case, earlier, Kagan Klein's team filed an appeal saying that his sentence was inappropriately harsh and it was affirmed by the Court of appeal.

[Anya Cain]

Of course, he pled guilty, so all he could complain about is the sentence, not anything else. But in this case, they could say, no, no, no, he's wrongfully convicted. This is wrong. Here's what happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So don't think that the fact that an appeal is filed necessarily means it is a good appeal that has a high chance of success.

[Anya Cain]

I have a question. The ultimate goal of an appeal, would that be to get a conviction overturned and therefore a second trial?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And how often does that happen? Is that a common occurrence?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not super common.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, so those are, I guess, the three big. Oh, here's. Here's another question, because we were talking about it, and I know the answer. Can the. Can the prosecution over appeal an acquittal?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

No. So those are some of the big. Those are the three outcomes here. And again, can't really determine what will happen. But we've gotten so many questions about all of these things that we kind of felt like we needed to do at least a quick, quick episode explaining what we might be looking at.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, frankly, I got a lot of emails Saying, Kevin, did you make it to the biscuit place?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we wanted to. That's breaking news. He did, and I loved it. It was amazing. You also mentioned something that I thought was kind of interesting that I was wondering if you wanted to talk about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mentioned many things that are interesting.

[Anya Cain]

You're fascinating, man. And that's the topic of jury nullification and did. As it pertains to snakes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We can talk more about that. Anya says maybe if these deliberations continue, we should do more little update episodes. Do you want to save that for our next update episode?

[Anya Cain]

We can save it. We can tease it out here if you want. Because I thought that was just an interesting topic that you brought up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But, I mean, let's do jury notification our next episode.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. Yeah, at first I was like, I would just wait around, but, you know, we've got. We've gotten bombarded with questions with people trying to figure stuff out, and I kind of feel bad for, like, just being like, we're not talking to you until this is over. So I feel like maybe we can kind of do just a couple of short episodes where we kind of answer a lot of, like, some of the questions we've gotten as opposed to, you know, we're not going to ramble on for hours, but we. But we can at least address some of these things. And if I were a listener, I would very. The thing I would be most interested in is, like, what comes next? And is there any way we can tell what's going on in that jury room? And hopefully we've explained that these are the big three options. And also, there's no way we can know what's going on in that jury room at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And thank you for listening, and we'll talk again soon.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Thanks, guys. Bye.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at wwpatreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered. You can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. Thanks so much for sticking around to the end of this Murder Sheet episode. Just as a quick post roll ad, we wanted to tell you again about our friend Jason Blair's wonderful Silver Linings handbook. This show is phenomenal. Whether you are interested in true crime, the criminal justice system, law, mental health, stories of marginalized people overcoming tragedy, well, being like, he does it all, this is a show for you. He has so many different conversations with interesting people, people whose loved ones have gone missing, other podcasters in the true crime space. Just interesting people with interesting life experiences. And Jason's gift, I think, is just being an incredibly empathetic and compassionate interviewer where he's really letting his guests tell their stories and asking really interesting questions along the way, guiding those conversations forward. I would liken it to, like, you're kind of almost sitting down with friends and sort of just hearing these fascinating tales that you wouldn't get otherwise, because he just has that ability as an interviewer to tease it out and really make it interesting for his audience.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On a personal level, Jason is, frankly a great guy.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's been a really good friend to us, and so it's fun to be able to hit a button on my phone and get a little dose of Jason talking to people whenever I want. It's a really terrific show. We really recommend it highly.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think. I think our audience will like it. And you've already met Jason if you listen consistently to our show. He's been on our show a couple of times. We've been on his show. He's a terrific guest. I. I say this in one of our ads about him, but I literally always. I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember when Jason said this. That really resonated. Like, I do quote him in conversations sometimes because he really has a good grasp of different, complicated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She quotes him to me all the time.

[Anya Cain]

I do. I'm like, remember when Jason said this? That was so right. So, I mean, I think if we're doing that, I think. And you like us. You, you. I think you should give it a shot, give it a try. I think you'll really enjoy it. And again, he does a range of different topics, but they all kind of have the similar theme of compassion, of overcoming suffering, of dealing with suffering, of mental health, wellness, things like that. There's kind of a common through line of compassion and empathy there that I think we find very nice. And we work on a lot of stories that can be very tough and we try to bring compassion and empathy to it. But this is something that almost can be like if you're kind of feeling a little burned out by true crime. I think this is kind of the life affirming stuff that can, can be nice to listen to in a podcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's, it's compassionate, it's affirming. But I also want to emphasize it's smart people. Jason is a very intelligent, articulate person. This is a smart show, but it's an accessible show. I think you'll all really enjoy it. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And he's got a great community that he's building, so we're really excited to be a part of that. We're really, we're fans of the show. We love it and we would strongly encourage you all just check it out, download some episodes, listen. I think you'll, you'll understand what we're talking about once you do. But anyways, you can listen to the Silver Linings Handbook wherever you listen to.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Podcasts, wherever you listen to podcasts. Very easy to find.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.