The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen's Police Interviews and Prison Calls

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Delphi Murders: Richard Allen's Police Interviews and Prison Calls"

Introduction In this episode of The Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain, a seasoned journalist, and Kevin Greenlee, an attorney, delve deep into the infamous Delphi Murders—the tragic killing of 14-year-old Liberty German and 13-year-old Abigail Williams in Delphi, Indiana, on February 13, 2017. While Richard Allen, a local CVS manager, was arrested and convicted for these crimes, Áine and Kevin explore newly unearthed evidence that sheds further light on the case, including previously unseen police interviews and prison phone calls.

Revisiting the Case Áine Cain initiates the discussion by highlighting recent efforts by their colleague, Tom Webster, to obtain and analyze critical exhibits from the trial. These exhibits include two significant police interviews conducted with Richard Allen on October 13, 2022, and October 26, 2022, as well as select prison phone calls between Allen and his wife Kathy and his mother Janice. Áine emphasizes the importance of these materials in providing a more comprehensive understanding of Allen’s behavior and potential inconsistencies in his statements.

In-Depth Analysis of Police Interviews The first major segment focuses on the October 13, 2022, interview with Steve Mullen, Carroll County’s prosecutor's investigator, and Tony Liggett, a detective who now serves as the sheriff. Áine and Kevin discuss how Mullen employs a relaxed and friendly demeanor to put Allen at ease, a technique that Liggett praises, remarking, “Mullen may be the best interviewer he's ever seen” (10:34).

A pivotal moment in this interview occurs when Allen recounts his activities on February 13, 2017. He claims to have spent the day fishing and walking trails, specifying his movements with precise timestamps:

“So I went home. And I remember it was a fairly warm day... I left among probably around 11, 11:15. So I think I would have been out there because I didn't do anything else.” (12:00)

However, Áine points out a critical discrepancy: Allen initially stated he was in the area at 1:30 PM, which would have placed him at the scene of the murders captured on Liberty's phone, but in later statements, he shifts his timeline to earlier hours. This inconsistency is highlighted as a potential attempt to create an alibi:

“If he's gone by 1:30, you know, he's innocent.” – Áine Cain (14:39)

Further complicating matters, witnesses Rayleigh Voorhees and Bri Wilbur reported seeing Allen’s "bridge guy" persona near the crime scene, directly contradicting Allen’s claims of minimal involvement.

Confrontation and Denials As the interview progresses, Mullen and Liggett confront Allen with testimonies from his wife and daughter. Allen becomes increasingly defensive, denying any connection to the murders despite undeniable evidence:

“No, you didn't do anything. I didn't do anything.” – Richard Allen (21:59)

Áine and Kevin discuss how these denials, coupled with Allen’s refusal to take a polygraph test (etiquette cut from public exhibits but crucial in court), cast further doubt on his innocence. They emphasize the strategic editing of interview clips to avoid presenting potentially prejudicial information to the jury.

Prison Phone Calls: A Window into Allen's Psyche Transitioning to the prison phone calls, Áine and Kevin analyze conversations between Allen and his family members. These calls reveal a man grappling with his actions, seeking affirmation of love amidst growing isolation:

“I just wanted to apologize to you. I did it. No, I did it.” – Richard Allen (50:23)

The hosts note the juxtaposition between Allen’s calm, organized confessions and his emotional turmoil, suggesting manipulative tendencies rather than signs of a genuine psychotic episode. Áine remarks:

“I don't think this is the act of someone going through psychosis. I believe he's a very troubled man... trying to get assurances that they'll still love him.” (61:14)

Family Dynamics and Emotional Turmoil The interactions between Allen and his wife Kathy, as well as his mother Janice, are dissected to uncover underlying manipulations. Kathy consistently denies Allen’s confessions, attempting to shield him from self-harm and legal repercussions:

“Rick, don't talk like this. I think they're just messing with you.” – Kathy Allen (53:05)

Áine highlights the dysfunctional dynamics, where Allen’s desperate need for love and validation clashes with his family's protective instincts. This tension is further exacerbated by Allen’s manipulative pleas for unconditional love, which his family cannot grant without acknowledging his guilt.

Legal and Judicial Implications Áine and Kevin critique Judge Goals Court for limiting public access to trial exhibits, arguing that greater transparency could have mitigated conspiracy theories and public distrust. They commend Tom Webster for his efforts in obtaining and disseminating these crucial pieces of evidence, stating:

“It's an outrageous situation that the public who is interested in this case is only just now getting the opportunity to see this information... Judge Goals... that's what she did to this case.” (100:30)

Concluding Insights In their concluding remarks, Áine and Kevin reflect on the profound psychological and emotional impact of the Delphi Murders on all parties involved. They lament the perpetual doubts and unresolved questions that linger, attributing much of the public’s skepticism to restricted access and selective information sharing during the trial.

Áine asserts:

“Richard Allen owns his actions. That's his fault. That's not his relative's fault. What he did is his fault.” (96:43)

Kevin echoes this sentiment, emphasizing the need for accountability and the dismantling of denial:

“He is using violence and threats of violence as a way to get what he wants, which is for her to love him.” (94:13)

Final Thoughts The episode underscores the complexities of the Delphi Murders case, exploring deep-seated manipulations, familial denial, and judicial shortcomings. Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide a nuanced analysis, encouraging listeners to critically assess the evidence and remain vigilant against the perpetuation of conspiracy theories.

Notable Quotes:

• Áine Cain (10:34): “Mullen may be the best interviewer he's ever seen.”
• Richard Allen (12:00): “I left among probably around 11, 11:15. So I think I would have been out there because I didn't do anything else.”
• Richard Allen (21:59): “No, you didn't do anything. I didn't do anything.”
• Richard Allen (50:23): “I just wanted to apologize to you. I did it. No, I did it.”
• Kathy Allen (53:05): “Rick, don't talk like this. I think they're just messing with you.”

Timestamped Highlights:

• [03:42] – Content Warning: Discussion of child murders and potential profanity.
• [10:34] – Mullen’s interview style praise by Liggett.
• [14:39] – Discrepancy in Allen’s timeline.
• [21:59] – Allen’s defensive denial.
• [50:23] – Allen’s initial confession.
• [61:14] – Analysis of Allen’s prison confessions.
• [94:13] – Manipulative behavior highlighted.

Conclusion This episode of The Murder Sheet provides an exhaustive exploration of Richard Allen's interactions with law enforcement and his behavior post-conviction. Through meticulous analysis of interviews and prison calls, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee unravel layers of manipulation, emotional distress, and judicial opacity, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of one of Indiana's most harrowing true crime cases.

For more detailed insights and access to the full range of exhibits, Tom Webster's channel is recommended, as mentioned throughout the episode.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Content Warning this episode includes discussion of the murder of two children. It also may contain some profanity.

[Anya Cain]

So some big news in the Delphi murders case. Of course, this is the murders of 14 year old Liberty German and 13 year old Abigail Williams in Delphi, Indiana. It occurred on February 13, 2017 and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As we all know, the killer was Richard Allen.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, this was a local CVS manager who was arrested and convicted of the crimes and he is currently incarcerated. But why are we talking about it? Because it's over. Well, our friend and colleague Tom Webster just recently unearthed some really interesting stuff that we all want to talk about. But let me just stop there for a second. So Tom went to the court and filed the appropriate requests and got the some of the exhibits. These are exhibits that we all saw in court. We've seen these before but the general public hasn't gotten to hear or see them yet. And what we're talking about specifically are two police interviews Allen did with police so on October 13, 2017 with Steve Mullen, then the prosecutor's investigator in Carroll county and Tony Liggett who was a detective and is now the sheriff of Carroll county. That was the first interview that we're going to talk about. And then October 26, 2022. Did I say 2017 earlier? I'm like losing my mind. These are both in 2022. So October 26th. That was with Jerry Holman, a lieutenant with the Indiana State Police. So Tom was able to get those, as well as audio from the prison calls between Alan and his wife Kathy and his mother Janice, that were also played at trial, though. I mean, hundreds of calls were recorded. But these are the kind of big ones that were played at trial because they include confessions or things that turned out to be incriminating.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I should say a number of media organizations have requested these exhibits. They may be on the way for other people as well. As you may or may not know, Judge Goals Court has made it not especially easy to get these exhibits. You have to jump through a lot of hoops. Tom Webster deserves a lot of credit because he was the first one to jump through those hoops successfully.

[Anya Cain]

And what we're doing here is essentially offering a bit of a smorgasbord of some clips of things that we thought were particularly interesting from these. But in order to get the full context, to watch the videos in the case where there are videos, or to just get the full conversation, you need to go to Tom Webster's channel. We will be including a link to him in our show notes and to some of these videos. But you can watch his live that he did where he adds some commentary on what his thoughts are. You can also watch the raw video that he's posted on his channel. So I would just really, really strongly like this can be your appetizer for this information. But if you want the full context, please go there. We're not going to play everything. We're just going to. Basically what we did was, because this has already been out there, we just singled out a few moments that we thought had some meaning or some interest to us. But it's not going to give you the full context. It's not going to give you the full conversations. To get that, you need to go to Tom Webster's channel.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Tom, he. He has a life out in California. He interrupted that life. He was at Delphi for most, if not all the trial. I remember we talked to him quite a bit out there. He's been on this show before.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So, I mean, he's. He's great and he did a great job with this. So absolute kudos to him. Our request for exhibits is still pending. He got it done first. He was organized, he was on the ball and he deserves absolute credit for that. So please go check him out. I love his analysis in general, but he also just as he's very good at research, so I mean, strongly recommend check that out. But full credit Goes to him for this big scoop. Are we ready to go?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Deli Murders. Richard Allen's police interviews and prison phone calls. I think to start out, I'm gonna play just the down the Hill guys. Down the Hill audio, just as kind of a. That's the first audio any of us heard in the Deli Murders case. Kevin and I, when we heard Richard Allen's voice in court on some of these audio things, I think we strongly immediately thought this was identical to how he sounds. But obviously it's a small snippet and it's not evidence. It's not enough to have any sort of vocal match. So, I mean, that's not something where, you know, the jury convicted him on that, but it is something that just as people who were studying this case for so long and had heard this audio so many times that that clicked things in a big way for both of us. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

All right, so here's that audio. So you hear that kind of raspy voice, bit of a twang.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So now let's talk about this first. I'm going to. We're going to talk about our clips in chronological order. This First, I mentioned October 13, 2022. Mullen and Liggett are the two investigators who end up interviewing Allen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is Steve Mullen, who at that time was an investigator with the prosecutor's department in Carroll County, Indiana. And Tony Liggett, at that time, he was a detective with the Sheriff's Department of Carroll County. He's since gone on to become the sheriff.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we mentioned that. Up top.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So that's who they are. And Mullen really seems to be taking the lead in my mind, in this interview, he's doing most of the talking between the two of them. His style is very relaxed, very friendly, very putting someone at ease.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Liggett has told us in our interview with him that he really thinks that Mullen may be the best interviewer he's ever seen.

[Anya Cain]

I don't know if that was the one that we played on the show, but he did tell us that. Yes, but, yeah, I mean, it's. It's one of those things where it's been. It's been interesting to kind of meet some of these people. But we've never been able to interview Steve Mullen for the show. But we're going to hear from him a lot here. So he's the guy doing most of the talking. You probably will recognize Liggett's voice when he comes in because he has been on the show. So I'm going to play this. This is Alan talking about what he did on February 13, 2017. The atmosphere at this point is very relaxed. He's just a witness who's helping these guys out. It's very casual.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. They've come to his house. They said, can you come in? They have Mirandized him as is appropriate. But I don't think he fully realizes what his situation is.

[Anya Cain]

My looking back and watching this again and watching Tom's live, I feel like I'm seeing someone performing. But he's. He's not at the level where it's like it's sunk in, or it may have sunk in, but it's not at the level where it's like I'm in huge trouble. But I kind of. I don't feel like he's as relaxed as he's trying to put out there. But that's just my opinion. Obviously, all this is just interpretations.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[C]

From where we're at right now, I think probably. Can you help us understand what was going on on Monday, February 13? Can you kind of tell us what you were doing that day and remember the day the girls okay? Yeah. I went over to my mom's in Peru, Mexico, earlier in the day. I think my mom had had hip surgery back then or something. But regardless, my wife is working, so I went over there and spent the day. Not today. I spent the morning with them. My sisters come over and they were going to go eat lunch and stuff. And I wasn't about that. So I went home. And I remember it was a fairly warm day or warmer than normal. So I think I just put a jacket on and went back out to the trails. Usually we had a. When we go, we walk down to High Bridge and walk back and walk down the other side and come back. I mean, it wasn't a ritual, but I remember walking down to the bridge. The times it was. I left among probably around 11, 11, 15. So I think I would have been out there because I didn't do anything else. It would have been around noon. I thought is when I was out there, walked down to High Bridge. Always went out just a little ways, not all the way. Went out a little ways and watch the fish, see if I seen any fish down there because I like fishing. And walk back and sit on the. When you turn around, go down the other fork, there's a bench that overlooks and sat there for a few minutes and walked down the walk back out and left.

[Anya Cain]

So that's him describing. Now this, of course is not the first interaction he's had with the authorities previously. In February 2017, right after the murders, he made a statement to then Lt. Dan Doolin of the Department of Natural Resources that he was out there more around 130. Yeah, so he's shifted his time to earlier. The reason being that if he's gone from the area by 1:30, he can't be the killer. If he's there at 1:30, then that puts him in the running. We know that the girls are abducted at 2:13pm because that is captured on Liberty Germans video on her phone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That time stamp, basically we know exactly.

[Anya Cain]

What time that happens. So if he's gone by 1:30, you know, he's innocent. So suddenly we go from him being there at the time to in this years later, he's saying, well, it was, it was earlier. So that kind of gives us a sense of where this is going. Obviously Liggett and Mullen know that discrepancy and you know that's going to be something they're thinking about. But here's a problem for Richard Allen. He was seen, people saw him. And perhaps some of the most important witnesses who saw him were Rayleigh Voorhees and Bri Wilbur and that they were part of a group of four girls. It's often been reported as three. One of the members of the group of four was a very young girl, a child. So she was not really, I think, looked at as much of a witness because she was so young. And when people say, well, he said three and it was really four, I mean, I, I don't, I don't really think that's a huge deal. I think that's just, you know, if they're walking in a group and one of them's way shorter than the others, I think you could possibly not see that one or, you know, not really counted appropriately. Seems pretty minor. But anyways. So the reason that these girls are a problem for Alan is because he says he saw them and they say they saw Bridge Guy. And we know what time they were there because Bri Wilbur was taking photographs on Snapchat and posting them. So we have timestamps, timestamped images that show when she was there and when that group was There. And that puts Allen on the trails around the time the murders. What he originally said versus this made up nonsense that he's spouting in this interview. Anyways, let's listen to him talk about these girls around noon.

[C]

It could have been a little before noon or a little afternoon walk down back an hour. So probably 1131 45, depending on exactly what time it was that I got there that day. I just remember walking down the trail and I told him that when I was approaching the trail, the trailhead, I guess is what I'd call it, there was three girls walking off the trail. And I just remember it looking like one of them was probably watching, not babies, but watching the other two because they looked a little younger and they looked very similar. I don't know if they were sisters or whatever, but the other one didn't necessarily. But I remember seeing them walking off the trailhead and I didn't really see anybody.

[Anya Cain]

Another person saw him. That was Betsy Blair, another witness who was doing her loop, her sort of exercise rounds. And she encountered not only Abby and Libby walking towards the Monon High Bridge, but she saw a man, bridge guy, standing on the first platform of the bridge. So these witnesses are very bad for Alan. This is something that's more subtle evidence than say, like a bombshell DNA match. But this is something I felt a lot of people missed in the trial, where it's like, no, no, no, this is bad. He is sealing his fate here by saying, I saw them. And they're all like, we saw bridge guy. Bridge guy glowered at me. Bridge guy was staring at me like he was waiting for someone else to come. And bridge guy, therefore, is Richard Allen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, because we know exactly, again, what time those girls were there. We know what time Betsy Blair was there. And, and if Richard Allen saw them and they saw bridge guy, all the pieces fit together.

[Anya Cain]

It's, it's, it's damning. So now let's talk about where things take a turn with the interview with Ligon and Mullen Mullins. Again, very, very nice. You know, I'm just, you know, we're just looking for information. At some point, though, things do take a turn, and that is namely when Mullen and Liga confront Allen with the fact that they have talked to his wife and daughter. They've been going around and doing interviews, and they kind of have come prepared. And Alan realizes that this is a lot more serious because you wouldn't necessarily do that with just a casual witness. Yes, let's hear and get a little more Confrontational.

[C]

No, you said you were there. Well, sure. We have people that saw you. Okay. Ricky said you were out on the bridge yourself. There aren't that many people that saw me. I mean, I'm sure I didn't miss that many people if they walked behind me, I guess. You said that you were out of the bridge, this bridge, yourself, that day, around the time when this happened. No, I didn't. You said you walked out onto the bridge. When we talked to you earlier, you said that you walked out to about the first platform. We're within that area. That's what you told us. We know that you were on the bridge. Of course I was. Okay. And I told you. And with that, you know, we can. We can say that. Is this person you? That's the question. Is that person you? That's the question we have to answer. Sure. Okay. So if that person is you, we know this person followed the girls all the way to the other side of the bridge and then told them to go down the hill, follow up. I don't even know what you're talking about. Like you're saying, don't. Okay.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. So one thing you might notice is that the sound dipped out there. There are a number of cuts in these interviews. There's a very simple reason for that, is because in interviews that were then used as exhibits in court, anything that would potentially violate Allen's rights or be a problem were cut. So I think that was. I believe that was stipulated between the parties. So the fact that Allen, at least in the second interview, repeatedly denied the opportunity to take a polygraph examination. Polygraph examinations are not admissible in court in the vast majority of instances. So that's something where the jury shouldn't know about that because that shouldn't influence their decision.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's right. I think it's entirely possible that for a jury member of the jury to hear, oh, he refused a lie detector test. Why would he do that if he had nothing to hide? That's an understandable feeling for a member of the jury, or frankly, for a member of the public to have. But you do not want a person to be convicted for that reason. And so the references to the polygraph were edited out. There were also a number, as I'm sure you all recall, there were a number of motions in limine in this case where it was held that certain things could not be mentioned during the trial like certain third party suspects. So I suspect some of the things edited out of some of these interviews would be references to them.

[Anya Cain]

So it's not like the police are sitting around on imovie and like, oh, here's the most interesting stuff. It's very specific things that are not allowed in. Whether it's polygraphs or references to, frankly, Kegan Klein and the Kleins, those are taken out. But that. That is just because, okay, the court said, yeah, take those out. Everything else remains in. Nothing else is. Like, they're not goofing around with anything else. So let's. Let's. Let's see how this all ends.

[C]

Are you arresting me? Well, I really try. I'm gonna try to. Okay. I want to try to get this thing worked out. Am I free to leave or not? You've always been free to leave. Thank you. You're an.

[Anya Cain]

So with that, Richard Athlone leaves. When he says thank you again, that just sounds so much like bridge guy to me. That's just my. You know. Yeah, that's what I hear. Now let's jump ahead to October 26, 2022.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So what happened between the end of that first interview and the beginning of the second interview?

[Anya Cain]

Richard Allen's house is searched on October 13th. So after that interview, his house gets searched immediately, and they find his Sig Sauer firearm. And that is tested by Melissa Oberg, who is then a forensic scientist with the Indian Indiana State Police Laboratory in Indianapolis. And what she finds is that there's sufficient agreement between extractor and ejection marks on a cartridge that she's ejected from the Sig sour and the cartridge found at the scene.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So in other words, a bullet from Richard Allen's gun is found to have been left at the crime scene.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the police have this information now before going into this second interview, but.

[Anya Cain]

You can tell that they still are coming off of looking at other people for the case, because what Lieutenant Holman is doing in this interview is. And we're going to hear this in a minute, but he's giving Alan a lot of outs, and Alan is just not taking them. And you can hear Alan's demeanor is different in the other one. I thought he sounded friendly at first. Then he sounded really irritated, you know, kind of, you know, emotions closer to the surface. In this, it's a different story. Let's listen.

[C]

Because if. If, for example, my buddy's fuel pump went out in his truck, she said, hey, can I borrow your old truck? And I said, yeah. So it's going to be two weeks. Ends up being five or six months. That would be a significant time. Time frame that my buddy's DNA would be in that Truck. Is there anything that you've loaned out for it besides your family members? We don't, we don't care about your wife. I can think of. You never loaned a truck out or you're sorry, it's a Ford Focus. Is that what it is? I mean, if I do, I certainly don't remember. Most of, most of my family has vehicles, so. Extra vehicles? Yeah, the same thing. Like my son, he sometimes will come over and leave his coat and I'll wear it for a couple months or something like that. Or my son in law, he'll, he'll spend money on guns. He's a gun freak. He likes to buy guns. And then we'll be like, hey, can I borrow 500 bucks? And then he'll give me his, one of his guns as collateral and then when he gets the money back. Anything like that that you know of?

[Anya Cain]

So again, not taking any outs.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, so what, what Holman is doing there, to be clear is he is giving Richard Allen the chance to say, oh, sometimes I've loaned my gun out to someone else. And if he's loaned his gun out to someone else, it's possible that that other person was using the gun at some point and had been out in the area of the crime scene and left the bullet there, either because that person was themselves involved in the crime, or that person was there earlier for innocent reasons and ejected the bullet then. So Richard Allen was given opportunities to shift the blame and create doubt and he did not take them for whatever reason.

[Anya Cain]

Interestingly enough, Holman at one point asked him like, were you ever on Ron Logan's land or just out in that area, maybe mushroom hunting? Now for all you non Americans, mushroom hunting does not mean like shooting at mushrooms. It's like you're looking for mushrooms. They call it hunting. But you know, there's a scenario where perhaps you go out mushroom hunting, you have your gun, maybe you hear something that freaks you out, you, you rack it, eject a bullet, something goes wrong and then you, oh, it's just a deer, no worries. So like there's situations where you can get your bullet ejected from your gun out near the crime scene, but you don't have anything to do with it. So what, what Holman did with this interview is essentially established that Richard Allen isn't claiming any of those things. There's no, there's no, there's no explanation. And in fact, Allen is like denying reality in some of these things. Beyond the bullet, beyond the cartridge, I should say, you know those points. And we saw this Kind of in the previous clip we listened to with the Mullen Leggett interview. But at one point he's like, I wasn't out there. Well, you just said you were on the bridge. Oh, well, you know. Okay, let's listen here.

[C]

There could have been somebody that seen me that I didn't see. What I'm telling you is they didn't see me anywhere near the girls or anybody else because I wasn't around anybody that day.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. Like, so we obviously know that's not true because his whole initial thing is that he said he saw these three girls.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So walked right past him. And now he's saying, I'm not around him. It's just. I don't know. He's not. He's not doing a particularly. Just deny, deny, denied, and I deny now. I don't necessarily think that has much bearing on guilt or innocence, because if you're innocent, you're also going to die being involved. Hey, I didn't do this. But it just. Some of the things, like some of the battles he picks here just don't really comport with, you know, reality, even beyond what the police are saying. They don't comport with reality from what he said. So let's go ahead. This is a long clip, and we can pause it if you want it at points and discuss or whatnot. But this is where things get really weird for me in this interview. At one point, Holman brings in Kathy Allen, who's also being interviewed, and it's really hard to understand what she's saying here. I think there's been some guesses. We could probably guess she's blubbering essentially, like. Like, I don't. Like, she's not just crying. She's, like, incoherent at times. And this is their body language. If you watch the videos on Tom's channel, the body language, to me is disturbing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you're someone who's very skeptical about the use of body language.

[Anya Cain]

I'm not. I'm not going to convict anyone based on body language, but, I mean, I have eyes and I can see a husband and wife interacting. And there's a. There's a level of discomfort here that I think is interesting, especially given that now Kathy Allen, you know, is asserting his innocence and whatnot. You know, and we'll hear that in the phone calls. But in this moment, it seems like there's been some questions and she's asking him those questions, and we're going to hear his responses from your gun.

[C]

Get out there. I don't know because they said it.

[Anya Cain]

Came from our government.

[C]

I know that's what they're. They believe me. That's what they're telling me. But how did it get there? I don't know. They said there was one in your box above your dresser to match it. They showed me that picture, too. I. I can't explain it.

[Anya Cain]

You would think he'd be. I'm just gonna pause here. You would think he'd be able to explain why there's one in a box in his dresser. Yeah, like that's some. Like you can only. Oh, well, no, that. I just. I just put it in there because it was rolling around in something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And also, I'm struck. I always felt he had a somewhat similar tone to her. I mean, he's more angry with Holman, but here, it's still the kind. There's a flatness to it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And, like, it's someone who's. Like, he's. He's getting excited. He's. I don't know, but it's like there's not. I don't know this. It's just weird.

[C]

And I don't.

[Anya Cain]

I can't either keep asking me, and.

[C]

I don't know how to answer that. I understand. Me either. And that's what I'm trying to tell you want to keep asking me, and I just keep telling you. I can't explain it. I don't know how to explain something that isn't possible. But I know. This is what I do know. I know that no bullet from my gun was connected with a murder in any way, shape, or form. And there's no way a bullet from my gun would have been near Abby and Libby's murder or. Or anything else, because I never even seen those girls, period. And I didn't even have my gun that day. So that's what I'm trying to say. I don't know how to make that any clearer. I don't know how to make that any. I don't know how to make somebody understand. I get what he's saying. I. I don't have a way to explain it.

[Anya Cain]

And they're like, there's a witness that.

[C]

Said it was you out there, dear. I. I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

Like, how did they know it was you?

[C]

So they said they showed her finger.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm like, of course you were out there.

[C]

If they seen me out there, they see me out there, Derek. And I told them. I told them I was on the bridge. I went out to the first trestle. Okay. That first thing. I remember you telling me that. So I told him you weren't on it. But I didn't. It doesn't. Hun, you're not in any trouble. You didn't do anything. I didn't do anything. Feeling right, huh? I didn't know you were on it. I'm sorry. Well, don't worry about it. I. Huh. Told me you were. Huh?

[Anya Cain]

You told me you weren't.

[C]

So I just. No, I told you that I walk.

[Anya Cain]

All right, let's pause that for a second. She says you told me you weren't, meaning you told me you weren't on the bridge that day.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

So he lied to her. Yeah, she's remembering that. She's remembering that. It's interesting, the voice kind of dipping from the more hysterical to suddenly more calm, like, you told me you weren't. I mean, like, like, like you would.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Think she would wonder why he lied to her.

[Anya Cain]

Do you think this is a. I mean, when every marriage is different? Every marriage is a mystery, right? To those on the outside of it. So how Kevin and I might interact would be very different than how another couple might interact. And so I don't want to just put my own experience on this, but do you think. I mean, is this what you. Is this what you would expect? He. To me, he's talking to her like she's a child. Like he's reassuring a scared child. Don't worry, honey. The monsters aren't going to come out. It's like, it's weird. I just find it weird. Um, if you were hitting me up with some of this response, I would be very concerned, I guess, is that. That's all I'll say.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if the shoe was on the other foot and you told me you weren't on the bridge, and now you're suddenly telling me you were on the bridge, I would find that incredibly concerning. And I know it's a conversation they probably had in 2017, this is 2022, but I would think if one of us was in the vicinity of the scene of one of the biggest crimes in our city's history, I would be inclined to remember every detail you told me. And she seems to be remembering very clearly that he told her he was not on the bridge.

[Anya Cain]

And that makes sense because I think if you came back and you were like, wow, I was in the vicinity of one of the biggest crimes in our city's history. But don't worry, like, I, I wasn't that close. I wasn't on that specific road. I would remember that. Because that would be reassuring of, like, oh, okay. In case there was any doubt in the back of my mind, I know he wasn't there. He wasn't there there. He was just around. So I could understand that from her perspective where she gets that reassurance. Oh, well, you were on the trails. Oh. But you weren't on the bridge. Okay. So you really. You really didn't see that much. You couldn't really be that much help. Whatever makes sense. But now, now he's adamant. He told her something different. So let's hear more from him.

[C]

I love you, baby. I don't know what they're trying to do, but I know that that's not what I told you. I love you. I just. It's just. They're not going to get away with this. This is exactly what I would never want for you, and there's nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to say I did something I didn't do. I'm not. And I know you know me, and I know you know that I would never do this. All I can say, honey, you know me. I know. And I know you know me, and I know you.

[Anya Cain]

What a freaking thing to say to somebody in this moment.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I always found it interesting. He. He isn't acting. He isn't asking her, what do you think? What do you make of all of this? What's going through your head? He is telling her what is going through her head.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's telling her what to think.

[Anya Cain]

This is why it's interesting when the defense experts came and talked about how he was such a fragile egg, you know, I mean, sounds like there's some truth to that, given his employment history and, you know, flaming out at every sort of, you know, position of responsibility he ever had. But when it. When Kathy Allen's portrayed is like, the fully the dominant partner in this relationship, that's not what I'm seeing here. I'm seeing a man telling his wife what she needs to think and treating her like a child and then basically gaslighting her when she points out that his story didn't match what she originally heard. So it's interesting that when he sees her kind of on the brink of maybe not believing in him anymore, these are the kind of manipulative tactics he breaks out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And it's really not like. I mean, I think if you were in this situation, it would be like, what do you think? I want to know what you think, because, like, then we can talk about it and I can address Your concerns.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if it was a situation where something from my. Something. A piece of my property or something linked to my property is found at the scene of a crime, and I honestly know that there's no way I could have put it there, I'd be like, anya, did you have something to do with this?

[Anya Cain]

I would also be like, get me a lawyer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Get me a lawyer. Do you have any explanation. Anya, do you have any explanation for how our piece of property ended up out there?

[Anya Cain]

Could you have lent out our gun to somebody who did this? Like, you know, your weird friend who's over. Like, I mean, is there any. Like, we would be trying to figure it out together what happened, and maybe that involves bringing in a lawyer at this point, I think we probably would have brought in a lawyer from the beginning, but. But that's neither here nor there. This is. I would be incredibly offended if you were hitting me up with, like, well, I know what you're thinking. No, you don't. Like, especially not right now. I mean, like. Like, no, we need to figure some stuff out and maybe meet with a lawyer where we're, you know, like, I don't know. I mean, geez, it's. It's really striking. And I was really. I think a lot of people were disturbed by their interaction in the courtroom. And again, like, Kathy Allen's come back around. You know, he's innocent. This isn't over all this nonsense. But, I mean, I. I think it's a situation where we're seeing here, the cracks start to form, and that's obviously changed, and we'll hear how it's changed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Later on when we get to the calls.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So things get more heated with Jerry Holman. He comes back. In the beginning, they kind of. You know, there's a bit of more of trying to build rapport, but at some point when Alan's just saying, it can't be true, it can't be true, it can't be true, Things start getting more heated. Holman starts pressing him more. So let's listen.

[C]

There is no way that evidence is going to show that I did right here. Rick, you got one piece of evidence, multiple. I'm not showing you my whole hand here. I don't care. Showing you. I'm done talking now. You're gonna drag your wife and your daughter through this because you're too bullheaded to get out in front of this and admit that you made a mistake. And whatever the happened out there, we'll never know because you're too big of a. So so go ahead. So tell you I did something. Tell me that I didn't do the truth. Rick, I don't want. I told you the truth, and you don't want to hear it. The evidence tells me otherwise. The evidence clearly indicates you're involved in this. No, it does.

[Anya Cain]

It does.

[C]

It doesn't.

[Anya Cain]

We probably should have put a profanity warning on this episode. So.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We did. We did.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, we did. Oh, gosh. Thank you. Things are getting more heated, and then I guess it ends. Very heated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And again, one thing we experienced in court was, as we said, it cuts. The. The. The audio and the video cuts because they keep. Holman is continuously trying to get him to do a polygraph, seemingly because that's yet another opportunity for police to confront somebody with like, hey, look, you're. You know, this is spiking. You're lying. It's. It's. It's yet another opportunity to get someone on the record, essentially. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I think at some point, there was an exchange involving Kathy Allen where I think Holman, correct me if I'm wrong, we were told he said something to Kathy Allen like, oh, don't you agree that if you're innocent, there's no reason not to take a polygraph?

[Anya Cain]

And she's like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And she's agreeing to that. But, no, look, Rick's not taking one. What do you make of that?

[Anya Cain]

So there's a lot of cuts. So this is gonna, like, get heated, and then it's gonna get really heated, and then it's gonna go back to normal. But when we interviewed Lt. Holman, he talked about, you know, you're trying to match somebody's energy, but you're also trying to implement strategies. Okay, being friendly is not working. What do we do next? Push him a bit. Well, that's not working. You know, maybe yell at him. Let's see. So you're trying to. Basically, when you're doing an interview, trying to figure out what's matching him, what's. What's gonna maybe get this person to open up. And I'm, you know, with. With Allen in this. He just seems so defeated. There's, like, a real apathy to his affect. There's a real kind of like, kind of, you know, sighing, rolling his eyes. It's really not. Really. Doesn't seem to be, like, a lot getting through to him in this interview. When you watch the video, which, again, check it out on Tom's channel. So I'll play this. Oh, and what. He's. What Alan is referencing in the beginning of this is. He's angry that his wife is upset.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[C]

You're gonna pay for what you've done to my wife. You want to with me, with me, but you leave my wife out of this. Leave me out of it. No. You're involved in this. You're around say, Rick. No. I can see you're getting pissed off.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I understand.

[C]

I am stressed off. Did you not see my wife? Did you not see these two girls dead? No.

[Anya Cain]

That's what happened.

[C]

You got pissed off, Adam. You dragged him down the hill and you killed. Don't tell me you didn't. I didn't kill anyone.

[Anya Cain]

There's that cut.

[C]

Upset for a reason, not because somebody. You're trying to tell me that I'm not making this around up, Rick. It is what it is. I'm done talking. Arrest me. Happy to be. Happy to. Because I tried to help you and you wouldn't do it. Oh, you're helping me? Guilty and I know it. And I'm gonna prove it. Okay. And I'm not paying for any of this. You're paying. This is on you. This ain't on me. It's on you, Rick. You had your opportunity.

[Anya Cain]

And then they arrested him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they arrested him.

[Anya Cain]

That was October 26th. Next, what the next exhibits we're going to talk about are the jail, or rather I should say prison phone calls. Of course, when you're in jail or prison, all of your phone calls in and out are recorded, except those to your attorneys.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, it was actually. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe at the beginning of these. These calls, there's a message saying, hey, this call is being recorded.

[Anya Cain]

When I heard this, I thought, that's bridge guy. So I'm going to play the original message and then I'm going to. I basically put it back to back with bridge guy a few times so you can hear it. But.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is something that's at the beginning of the phone calls where they say, hey, you pick up your phone and it's someone from a prison calling you. And there's a recorded message saying, hey, this is so and so from the prison. That's what you're going to be playing us, right?

[Anya Cain]

That's right. All right, here we go. Hello.

[D]

This is a free call from Ricky, an inmate at the Indiana Department of.

[Anya Cain]

Corrections Westville Correctional Facility, that Ricky was. I mean, did you hear that when we. Was that just me to me?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You singled that out? I believe I've heard other people, both as a trial and sense, single that out. Is this Sounds really, really a lot like bridge guy. Identical to bridge guy. I hear that. But I, I also thought his voice, especially during the Mullen interrogation, to me sounded a lot like bridge guy.

[Anya Cain]

The Mullen legged interview really sounded like bridge guy to me too. But this was so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To me, by the time we got to this, I was already.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, you're. You're sold. All right, here we go. This is. I'm gonna just play them back to back. Just. I think also this is shorter, so you can kind of hear both. So here we go.

[E]

Ricky.

[C]

Guys.

[E]

Ricky.

[C]

Guys.

[E]

Ricky.

[Anya Cain]

That, that raspiness, it's not like a booming manly voice. It's kind of this, you know, and the down the hill portion of that to me sounds identical to him saying Ricky. When we were hearing him again and again, all I was thinking was, this is the voice of bridge guy. This is bridge guy. So this first one is not a confession. This first recorded conversation between Kathy Allen and Richard Allen. It's from November 14, 2022, shortly after his arrest, obviously. And he's. We're kind of hearing him not doing so well, though, so he's, he's crying in this. He's been hard to understand. This interview was singled out in court because he said something to the effect of I'll just tell them what they want to hear. Some people took that to be incriminating. I didn't. That sounds like it could be ambivalent, ambiguous, rather I should say ambiguous because you could be saying, I'm going to tell them what they want to hear, the truth. Or you could be saying, I can lie to them and tell them I was involved just to get this over with. So I didn't think that was particularly interesting or incriminating. But I'm just giving you a set, a taste of this conversation between them. And also maybe what, what Richard Allen really cares about here.

[E]

Everybody know how much I love.

[D]

Of course I will. They already know.

[E]

They don't.

[D]

Yes, they do. Nobody loves me anymore.

[Anya Cain]

Nobody loves me anymore When I've. I think I've referred to Richard Allen in the past as sort of like an. In an overgrown toddler. Like, just picture the neediest sort of being you could imagine. And a toddler, I mean, a toddler wants independence. Oftentimes that's that stage of development where we're human beings are kind of growing and they want to do things themselves and they want to be a big kid and whatever. This guy is just like an infant. I mean, just, just the raw need of like, most important thing here. Is that everybody loves them and people still love him and. No, no one's gonna love me anymore. Now let's hear this weird mood shift that I saw. And I just wanted to, like, I just found this. Maybe I'm overthinking it, but I'll be curious of your take.

[E]

So please make sure. If you need Bob or Britt or anybody that you can go to, don't wait.

[D]

Okay.

[E]

Okay. Did you go back to work?

[D]

No.

[E]

Okay.

[D]

They don't want me there.

[E]

They don't.

[D]

They're afraid for me.

[E]

Oh, okay.

[Anya Cain]

Like, what is that? She's. She's. He's saying, did you go back to work? He's crying, he's blubbering. Did you go back to work? No, they don't want me there. They're, you know, worried for me. So she's basically saying, I can't go back to work. They're worried, you know, someone might. Might do something to Kathy Allen. She's been put in a bad position by Allen's arrest, and, you know, she could be a target, therefore. So I just thought it was weird. He's like, crying and weeping one moment, and then next it's like, oh, okay. That just seemed like a weird mood shift there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, that's fair.

[Anya Cain]

It's like suddenly we're not talking about me and my feelings, and we're talking about the reality facing my wife. And it's like, not as much to cry about there, is there? So this is not a confession again. This is a call between. I believe this is. Let me just double check before I say it wrong. This is from April 2, 2023. And this is with Janice. So this is with Richard Allen's mother. And he's not confessing anything here. He's letting her know about a big new development in his life. Richard Allen did not grow up religious. He did not grow up going to church. But that is about to change.

[D]

Oh, I will.

[E]

I've got a family that's always going to love me no matter what. And, yes, you do that God. So I've got God. So. And I know that. I know that Kathy's got God and you've got God, and, yeah, that's good enough for me.

[Anya Cain]

So he's saying he's got God now. He talks in depth about how he's found Jesus Christ as his Lord and savior in this call with Janice. And they talk about religion, and he talks about how he's recently been saved. He's recently found God. This is a really big deal for him. And this is what is going to start off this recent spade, this subsequent spate of confessions which begin the next day where he is. You know, what we're seeing is basically a man saying, in order to get right with God, I need to confess my sins. And he's going to do so to his family, his loved ones, who he feels he needs their support. But this is where the problem comes in as we are going to hear. So this is from April 3, 2022. This is the first recorded confession in this line. Remember that not all confessions were recorded. On the recorded line between Alan, his family members, he confessed to. To Dr. Monica Walla, his prison psychologist. He also confessed to numerous guards and suicide companions. Suicide companions who are ensuring that he was not harming himself. So let's hear what he has to say.

[E]

I just wanted to apologize to you.

[D]

What's going on?

[E]

I did it. No, I did it.

[D]

What?

[E]

I killed Abby. I killed Abby and Libby.

[D]

No, you didn't.

[E]

Yes, I did.

[Anya Cain]

No, you didn't dare just popping in here. She sounds like she's talking to a child.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

No, you didn't, dear. Like, that's like, mom, I went to the moon today and fought the moon monsters. It's like. It's weird level of dismissiveness.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, it is.

[Anya Cain]

Because that wouldn't be. Well, I mean, listen, everyone reacts to things differently. I think a lot of people's reaction would be more alarmed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Alarmed. Curious. Not. It's an odd reaction. It's an odd reaction.

[Anya Cain]

Everything about these two interactions is weird and bizarre, in my opinion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's get back to it.

[E]

Yes, I did. Don't say I don't know why.

[D]

No, you didn't. No, you didn't, dear. You're not feeling well. There's something wrong. They've messed up your meds or something there.

[E]

No, I mean, I evidently did it.

[D]

No, you didn't. Why would you say that?

[E]

Because maybe I did.

[D]

No, you didn't, dear.

[E]

I think I did.

[D]

No, you didn't. They are screwing with you there, and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. There's something wrong. They are messing with you. They are messing with your mind.

[E]

Did dad tell you I called?

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

What did I say to him?

[D]

I don't know. I talked to your mom, but she's. She called me in and we're just worried about you because there's. Something's not right.

[E]

Is there a way to talk to dad?

[D]

No, honey, I'm not with them right now. And there's something wrong. They're screwing with you there.

[E]

What do they say?

[D]

They have done something to your food or they've done something to your neck? Did you ever say you did anything? Because I know you didn't.

[E]

I think I did.

[D]

No, you didn't. Why would you say that?

[E]

Because I think I did.

[D]

No, you didn't. You know you didn't.

[E]

I wish I could say I didn't. I don't know.

[D]

You don't know, say. Exactly. There's something wrong. They're screwing with you, trying to get you to say things, mess with your mind.

[E]

No, I'd be safe like this.

[D]

There's something wrong. No, you don't.

[E]

I just wish they would kill me or. Let me apologize to the families at least.

[D]

Dear, don't talk anymore. Just don't talk anymore, okay? Don't talk anymore. I need to get a hold of somebody there. Thank you for using gtl.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, I have a couple observations.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you have any Ladies First?

[Anya Cain]

No. Curiosity immediate. No, you didn't. I'd be very curious to know where Kathy Allen got this strange idea that people at the prison were, quote, messing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

With Richard Allen's meds or doing something to his food.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I wonder where that came from. I mean, did she just make that up wholesale or did she get that from some people? And if she got that from some people, it's really weird that it never came up at trial, isn't it?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Wouldn't that make someone in Kathy Allen's position maybe. Consider. I don't know, maybe. Maybe she got spun just the thought.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The like.

[Anya Cain]

Listen, I mean, if he's being poisoned in his food or there's something inappropriate going on with his meds, then that would be something to bring up. All that was brought up was that he was put on Haldol, which, if you talk to anybody with actual experience with Haldol who isn't trying to use it to make some kind of partisan point in this case, it's not going to prompt you to confess to things you didn't do. No, it's not that kind of medication. It's used as an antipsychotic. It's used to calm people down when they're in the middle of psychosis or in this case, whatever Richard Allen was going through.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The lack of curiosity, as you say, is very striking. I think if you said something that I found ludicrous, I would at the very least want to know why you were thinking that. I also found it interesting that she was telling him just to be quiet, but she let the conversation go on for A while. I think quite possibly that one reason why she became, in this and in other calls, very quick to try to end the conversation is I think she had full awareness that these conversations were being recorded and she did not want him to say things that would hurt him at trial.

[Anya Cain]

You know, and I understand that trying to end it because you don't want him to hurt his case, but at the same time, the lack of curiosity gets me. I think if there was some. If somebody I loved was in this situation, I would want to know. You know, I think her. Essentially, you can see the kind of pressure campaign from her starting where. No, you did not. No, you did not. No, you did not. I don't want to hear it. Stop talking. He's not getting the reaction he wants from her, which seemingly is for somebody to listen to him, and she's not providing that. So then you can see he's kind of. He did this boundary test where it's like, I. He just hits her up. I did it. I killed Abby and Libby. And I think he's hoping she'll let me explain and she will tell me that she and others will still continue to love me afterwards. And she's not given that to him. And in fact, when she's not getting the, like, level of retraction that she's happy with, because you can, you know, she's, I mean, he, she, she gets him to say, well, maybe I did it. Like, he kind of withdraws a bit. She kind of pushes back hard enough where he's like, I. I think maybe I did. Although then he keeps saying things like, I really want to apologize to the family. So he doesn't really come off it. He just kind of moderates his tone a bit. You know, she's. She starts crying. Then it's like it's, it's, it's a campaign to get him to stop saying things that she does not want to hear. And it's, it's very, it's very forceful. Also, I think I said I felt Richard Allen was sort of dominating her in that interview when he's basically telling her what to think. Now she's telling him what to think, the roles are reversed. She's talking to him like he's the child, she's got a mother, him, she knows what's best and she's going to make sure that, you know, little Ricky's mistakes don't necessarily catch up with him, obviously unsuccessfully.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And what he wants most in the world is continued assurances of her love and his mother's Love. And he wants. That's. She recognizes that, and that is her power over him.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Now, I think his. His mother, one of these calls, I don't know if this is a cliff we show, but his mother, in one of these calls, does give him that unconditional support. She says, no matter what, I will love you forever. So she. He gets that from her to a certain extent, although she still denies that, you know, she still denies him the opportunity to be heard about the murders. But Kathy never gives that. Kathy never tells him, I will love you even if you murdered two kids. So he never gets that unconditional support from Kathy because what she's giving him is not unconditional support because it is contingent upon him being factually innocent of the crime. So in, I think in a situation like that, you know, if you're. If you're the person who's the perpetrator, you look at that and they will stop loving me if. If I continue down this route. They do not unconditionally love me. I mean, I guess you'd know that they still don't unconditionally love you. Like whatever's going on is just a farce. But, you know, maybe sometimes it's easier to live with that than, you know, otherwise.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I mean, a facsimile of love is better than no love at all.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. For at least, you know, these fragile people. So let's talk about. This is eight. So that was April 3, 2022. This seems to be May 10, 2022. There are two calls from this. In this, we have Richard Allen talking about how he's losing his mind. And also note, you know, one thing we heard about in prison, and we're going to talk to people who know more about this soon, hopefully. But one thing we talked about at court was that the defense's own expert, at one point, Dr. Deanna Dwenger, talked about what a psychotic episode would look like. And one thing that would often, you know, there are situations where someone who's having a psychotic episode can be calmer. It's not always going to be ranting and raving, screaming. That's not always going to be the demeanor. So, I mean, I don't think we should necessarily look at that alone. He sounds very calm here. Yes, he's very calm. But that to me is not the be all, end all. What is perhaps more significant than that is that if you listen to these all together, Allen is consistently. He has a goal and he's working towards that goal, and he's not Saying anything that's beyond the realm of possibility. And what he's saying is organized, and he's trying to persuade people of things. And when you see someone in a psychotic episode, often it's very disorganized, disjointed thinking. It's things that aren't really there. It's, you know, the TV told me that I have to go outside and put on a hat. You know, it's like a level of disorganization and communications that I just don't feel like we really see here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I agree completely.

[Anya Cain]

So just because he's calm, that's not necessarily everything. But the fact that he's, you know, he's trying to tell them something, and he keeps on working towards that, and when they deny him, he keeps coming back and, well, okay, but like, hear me out. You know, he's trying to get that assurance. He's working toward a goal, and what he's saying is organized around that goal. So here's May 10th, number one.

[E]

No, I just think maybe I've lost my mind.

[D]

Oh, no, honey, we've all lost our minds at this point.

[E]

So, Brad. Brad. So I can trust Brad and Andy then?

[D]

Yes, you can, sweetheart. Yes. Let's not talk about anything that we don't need to. But no, there are lawyers, honey.

[Anya Cain]

I find it interesting that she calls Brad and Andy, AKA Bradley, Rosie and Andrew Baldwin, their lawyers. They're his lawyers, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, yes, absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

Who are they working for? Him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Because even when you are a married couple, it's entirely possible there are circumstances where what's best for one party is not what's best for the other party. There's always possibilities of conflicts. And certainly in this case, it seems very clear that Richard Allen's interests may not be totally in line with Kathy Allen's interest. And so that's why I, for one, was very gratified when at some point during the process, we did learn that Kathy Allen had her own attorney looking after her interests.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but honestly, this doesn't really gratify me that much because, again, who are they working for and what does their client want? That's ultimately what's important. And if. If it's the situation where Rosie and Baldwin felt like Allan was confessing because he was having a psychotic break, they very easily could have filed something around his mental health, around competency and things like that and be like, he's hurting his case. He's doing, you know, we need to. We need to take care of that issue before we even go to Trial because he's not competent. He can't help in his defense. If we think he's innocent and he keeps confessing, that's harming his defense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a problem.

[Anya Cain]

But they never did that. Weird. Anyways, so. Yeah. So this is all one, you know, one big team, seemingly. What do you make of him asking her if they can trust Rosie and Baldwin? That seems really weird. I wonder what precipitated that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Because at this point, you said this was in May.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they were appointed in November. So he had had these people as his attorney for about six months. Yeah. Why would he be wondering if they were trustworthy or not at this late date?

[Anya Cain]

I sometimes wonder if they were more busy working on Kathy Allen than their actual client because, I mean, that's what I hear in this. That's just my opinion. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's just speculation, obviously. I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We do know there were at least some visits to visit Alan in person.

[Anya Cain]

Which always seemed to occur around, you know, immediately. The aftermath of that was, was his mental health would start deteriorating in a very notable way to the point where multiple witnesses commented on that at trial.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

So the lawyers show up, they talk to him, he freaks out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, that happened more than once.

[Anya Cain]

That happened. That was the pattern. Everyone observed that the lawyers are coming, this is going to go, you know, his mental health is going to go to hell. So at one point, Dr. John Martin, who is his psychiatrist at Westville, talked about how, I believe that he made a comment about one of the lawyers being the bad cop and one of them being the good cop. And of course, whenever any of this would come up in, in court, in pre trial or during trial, you know, Brad, Rosie would immediately be on his feet. Oh, we can't talk about that. Basically. And I would love to have been a fly on the wall. Like what was going on with these people where, you know, there was this weird, weird vibes between client and attorneys.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. We'll never know because attorney client privilege.

[Anya Cain]

No. Yeah. They're never going to talk about it, but I mean, it raises concerns.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[D]

There are lawyers.

[E]

Well, I need to tell you something anyway.

[D]

Okay. Are you sure you want to talk to me over the phone?

[E]

I think I have to.

[D]

Okay.

[E]

I need you to know that I did this.

[D]

What? No. No, you didn't, dear. There's no way. There's no way, dear. There's no way. Okay.

[E]

I hope you still love me.

[D]

I always will. Go. Love you, honey. But no, you have not done anything. And I think you are not well. So you don't need to be saying you did something you didn't do.

[E]

Well, hon, this is the first time I've been able to talk to you and I've been trying forever.

[D]

Were you just not allowed to call me or.

[E]

I don't know what's going on, hun.

[D]

Okay.

[E]

I'm definitely gonna lose my mind now, though.

[D]

Don't, don't.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, this is just my interpretation of this, but she does at one point say, I'm always going to love you, but immediately kind of lessens the impact of that by saying, you know, but you didn't do this, obviously. And I think it's interesting at the end he sort of says, I'm definitely going to lose my mind now because he didn't get that assurance. He didn't get what he wanted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And nothing. This isn't a big thing, but one thing that does jump out at me is, boy, are there a lot of long pauses in these conversations. It's like both sides are waiting for some cue from the other or waiting for something. I don't know. It feels very awkward.

[Anya Cain]

This guy is the neediest person in the world. I mean, this is the neediest, most pathetic. I mean, I remember. I don't think this was one of the clips we included, but at one point when I was listening to Tom's live, there's a portion where Alan says, I'm gonna take care of myself. Like I'm a man. I haven't seen any evidence of that in any of this. It's just like, let me just prop myself up on my family because I'm just. I mean, I think, I think this is a guy who went out there to feel like a man. He went out there to that, to those trails that day to feel like a man, to dominate women or girls, whoever he came across. And you know, he's, he's not, he's, he's. He's just pathetic. It's. I don't, I also don't. I don't understand why people would be standing by him to this extent without recognizing reality. I think there's something noble and something like, understandable of like accepting what your loved one did and still loving them. That's honest. I know he killed those people, but he's still my son and I love him and I, I'm gonna be there for him even though I don't approve what he did, you know, but there's something in the way where people kind of Twist themselves into knots to try to make themselves believe that somebody's innocent, even though obviously it's. Other things have crossed their minds here, in my opinion, and the evidence is just overwhelming against them. There's something that speaks to a real level of denial, and that's sad because I don't, I don't think you're living a real life if you're just wallowing in denial and basically holding on for someone who did one of the worst things you can do. Because I mean, these are two kids.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And to step beyond just these phone calls for a moment. These women's lack of curiosity about the events of February 13, 2017 also manifested itself in other ways. Because I recall whenever there was a witness who was going to testify in some detail about what Richard Allen did to these girls, they would leave the courtroom, they would not be present. They did not want to hear it.

[Anya Cain]

When Pat Cicero, the CSI expert, originally testified at the three day hearings, you know, Janice and Kathy were out of there. Richard Allen kind of had a big success that day because he was transferred to Cass county, you know, so that was a big deal for him. He comes over, he's smiling towards the empty seats where his family used to be. They couldn't stick around to hear that blood spatter talk because, you know, and it's interesting because, I mean, it's, it's horrible to hear no matter what, but I mean, if you, if you don't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Think he did it and on the day when Richard Allen was sentenced and the families got their opportunity to speak and to tell the world, specifically to tell Richard Allen, here is how your crime affected us. These women also chose not to be present for that.

[Anya Cain]

I think there's a certain type of person where it's like, what? I don't know. My ignorance can protect me. And you know, I mean, that's one way to live your life. But I, I don't think that's really living. And you know, I, I just will point out that in many cases, you know, the, the famous one being Dennis Raider, AKA btk, you know, people, people don't always stand by their man in the face of that. And, and sometimes when people do, it's with the acknowledgment that yes, they are guilty, but I still love them. Something went wrong mentally and I'm gonna be there for them no matter what. That's unconditional love. I don't know what this is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What's the next call?

[Anya Cain]

This is part two of May 10th. Richard Allen continues to be a very Needy person.

[E]

Hello?

[D]

Hey.

[E]

Hey, it's me.

[D]

Yeah.

[E]

I need to know if you still love my baby.

[D]

Yes, dear.

[E]

Okay. And everybody else will as well. Honey.

[D]

Yes.

[E]

Because I may have to spend the rest of my life here or.

[D]

Stop talking about it. That's not true. Okay.

[E]

I don't understand. I just gotta know that everybody's still gonna love me.

[Anya Cain]

And here's another part where he confesses again.

[D]

They messed you up so bad.

[E]

It's okay, honey. I did it. I did it, dear.

[D]

Stop.

[E]

I cannot stop. I've got somebody here listening to me right now. Dear.

[D]

I know I did it. No, you didn't. Stop. Stop saying sorry.

[Anya Cain]

Just endless back and forth between them.

[C]

Just.

[Anya Cain]

No, I did it. No, you didn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One thing that I find striking is on a basic human level, it's difficult to hear someone crying. And that's especially true if I hear Anya crying. I'm going to be really, really upset and devastated and want to help her. And here Richard Allen is talking to this woman that we are told he loves, and she is weeping uncontrollably. And he doesn't seem to care. He has a totally flat affect. And not only that, but when you listen to that call, there are moments where he seems to be turning the emotional screws to make her cry and be even more upset. He's saying, well, you know, I'm never gonna get out. It's like he's relishing her strong emotional reactions.

[Anya Cain]

One thing that correctional officers and, you know, many witnesses testified to at trials is this guy is desperate for attention. He wants everyone's attention, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, he.

[Anya Cain]

He needs to be the special boy center of attention. You know, look at Richard, look at little Ricky. And I. I feel like this is a bid for, like, now I really have your attention, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna lay out everything for you. I think there's an element of. Yeah, I hear what you mean. Where it's like, he's really making it worse for her. But I also hear it's almost like he's trying to give her all. Everything so she can kind of, like, hear him out, hear the details, and then maybe come back to him and say, I love you. Anyway. That's what he needs.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He says that there's somebody in there listening. Do we assume this is Dr. Walla? Because I remember during the trial, he. It was discussed that he wanted her to listen to one of these calls.

[Anya Cain]

He brought in Dr. Walla to listen and to help him call his wife that day. And what's interesting Is that. What was it? It's like she didn't want him to confess. She kept telling him, I don't talk to me about this. Talk to your attorneys. You know, he doesn't want to talk to his attorneys. It sounds like he didn't even trust his attorneys up until. Up until recently in this situation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So he trusted Dr. Wall. I didn't trust his attorneys, apparently.

[Anya Cain]

So, you know, like, yeah, they. That's the person I believe he's referencing. So that was the day where I think he called her, and then he got, Dr. Wall, I want to call her back. I want you to hear what I have to say. And she's like, are you sure?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he's like, yes, Dr. Walla. She. She. She's looking after the interests of her patients. She's not interested in getting confessions from them. That's not her role. She doesn't want to be a witness at a trial.

[Anya Cain]

No one wants. No one wanted the warden, when Warden John Galopo wouldn't even come meet this guy after he wrote him saying, I want to confess to you. Essentially, no one wanted this. No one wanted to get dragged into this. This is Richard Allen, you know, having his hissy fits, as usual, trying to get everyone, you know, involved, trying to, oh, everyone comfort me, you know, I'm such a bad boy, but do you still love me? Just pathetic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they also know that if they were going out soliciting confessions from him, the defense attorneys, rightfully so, would object, so that they are bending over backwards to respect Richard Allen's right.

[Anya Cain]

No one wants to hear this guy. He just will not stop. He is determined. He's bound and determined to get a guarantee. And also, none of these. None of these calls contain significant details of what he did. It's not like he seeing I killed them with a box cutter. That. That's all in his talk with Walla. So that's not. That's not going to be outlined here. But to me, what these are significant is I don't believe they're the act of someone going through psychosis. I. I believe he's a very troubled man, don't get me wrong. But I don't think. I think he's trying to be honest, trying to basically put out the worst thing he ever did and get assurances from his support system that they'll still love him. And they won't. They won't give him that. They won't give him that. They won't even let. I mean, and the thing is, like, if you. I mean, I Wouldn't I? Probably. In fairness to the Allens, I probably would not want to have those conversations on. On any sort of record, because I would be worried about that. But. Well, honestly, if you killed two kids, I guess I wouldn't care. But the thing is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You wouldn't care if you were having the conversation on the record?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. If you kill two kids and you confess to me like that, that's your problem at that point, like that, then. Then my spouse isn't who I thought they were when I married them. Right. But. But beyond that, let's just take that away. One thing that a confession or asking for more detail, asking for more clarity can do is if he says, well, I flew in. In a hot air balloon and then the aliens were there and I shot them with the gun, well, then I. You're probably innocent. You probably are having a mental health episode, because everything you said doesn't match up. But it's interesting to me that they don't even. They're not even curious enough to get that. They don't want. They know. Don't tell me with that. They don't want to know. I don't hear any curiosity. I hear defensiveness. And that makes me wonder, because where is that coming from? Yeah. All right. This is. This is Janice. This is Alan's mom. This is May 17th, so a week later.

[D]

It's good to hear your voice.

[E]

So, Kathy tell you that I did it?

[D]

We're not going to discuss this. Okay. Are you there?

[E]

Yeah, I'm still here.

[D]

Yeah. We love you. You know that, don't you?

[E]

Regardless.

[D]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

That was a very uncertain yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[E]

You know, if Kathy's okay.

[D]

Kathy's doing okay. We've been holding each other up.

[Anya Cain]

Also pointing out he's asking how Kathy's doing. I don't know. Maybe there. It seems like that could indicate a lapse between phone calls. So now not only is she shutting him down in the phone calls, there may not be a lot of phone calls going on. There's a. There's a withdrawal. Yeah, that's the sense I get.

[E]

I'm just worried that you guys aren't going to love me because of the fact that I said that I did it.

[D]

Ricky, I just know you're not in a good place right now, and I'm praying for you, and we will always love you no matter what. But just saying it doesn't mean you did it.

[E]

Well, it does when I did.

[D]

Rick, don't talk like this. I think they're just messing with you.

[E]

No, mom, they're not. I love you.

[D]

What are you doing? I love you, too. Honestly, I just know you don't have it in you to do something like that.

[E]

Mom, I wouldn't sit here and tell you I did it if I didn't.

[Anya Cain]

Kind of an echo to something he said in one of the police interviews, which was, I'm not going to sit here and tell you something I didn't do right now. She does give them that unconditional love assurances, but I think that means a lot less to somebody when they're denying what you're saying, you know, if they don't accept what, you know, what you're claiming to have done, then assurances of unconditional love seem to fall a bit flat and be more conditional in nature. He's. He sounds a lot flatter here. He sounds exasperated with her a few times when he's basically, mom, why would I say this if I didn't do it? Like, come on. I don't think his mother was as important a figure to him as Kathy. I think, like, with Kathy, he seems a lot more desperate.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I would agree.

[Anya Cain]

The mom, not so much. Not so much. A bit calmer. Still trying to get across his message. Still trying to say what he did, but not to the same degree. All right, this is. This is Kathy. This is From, I believe, June 5, 2022.

[E]

Know that I done it right.

[D]

Yeah, I don't want to talk about that.

[Anya Cain]

Can I just. He says, you know, I'd done it right? And she says, yeah. And then pause. I don't want to talk about it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sure that was just an awkward moment in the conversation. I don't think we need to read into that, but I am pointing it out that. Yikes.

[D]

Okay. Have a good conversation between us.

[Anya Cain]

So a good conversation between Kathy and Rick at this point seems to be. Or let's say Kathy and Richard. I don't. I'm not. He. I'm not calling this guy a nickname. It seems to be one where he's not actively confessing to, like, murdering two children.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

That's a good conversation.

[D]

I guess it doesn't matter what I think, but.

[E]

Of course it does. Just in a really frustrating spot right now. I said, I'm just in a really frustrating spot right now. And I know that that's nothing compared to where you're at. So not trying to.

[D]

No, no. Your side is a lot worse than mine. I have freedoms that you don't have. So not going to go there. I feel guilty about.

[E]

I don't know why nobody will talk to me and be honest with me.

[D]

I'm not gonna get that there, dear. They've already got the mindset, I don't care you did, didn't do it. That's just proven just another number that.

[E]

Just don't feel like anybody's willing to be honest with me anymore. Like everybody's afraid to hurt my feelings or something.

[D]

I think people have to be very careful when they talk. We all do. If I can get a chaplain in there to pray with you, would that be okay? I mean, I've been trying to get a hold of somebody, but of course nobody ever answers. You have to go to voicemail that it's full, so. But if I can get.

[E]

I've had a chaplain pray with me once, but it just doesn't.

[D]

Oh, okay.

[E]

Doesn't seem to help me any.

[D]

Well.

[Anya Cain]

So we're seeing kind of the wind down of his religious episode, you know, and whether or not, I mean, I'm not going to. I don't know what's in this guy's head or heart. I don't know if that was a sincere attempt to atoned for as, as much as one can atone for doing something like this or if that was just a ploy to manipulate his family into, I don't know, accepting that he changed. I, I don't know. I. But, but we see a kind of a wind down here. So the chaplain's not doing much for him anymore.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I'm always the, the phrase that always resonates with me is he was trying to get his family to. He was excited about his professed conversion to Christianity and he thought, well, maybe I won't get to see my family in Earth again, but I can see them in the afterlife in heaven if I get right with God. But then his family starts pulling back when he tries to do that. Because in his mind, getting right with God involves confessing. And so he starts. He realizes he has come to a crossroads. And there was a phrase I believe heard in perhaps the three day hearing from Harshman where he, at some point Allen realized he had to choose between heaven and his family. And he said that was no contest and ended up choosing his family.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's a master trooper, Brian Hirschman, who of course monitored all these calls for the state. Yeah, I, I think it's interesting. They seem to be completely talking past each other. He's referencing. No one's willing to be honest with me. She seems to think he's talking about, about prison officials, people in Prison. Well, that's just. Prison. You're just a number. I think he's talking about her. I think he's talking about his family because they won't listen to him. And it's basically like, we need to walk on eggshells. We can't talk about anything real. Let's have a nice conversation. Let's keep it nice. You know, it's all about this niceness. So here's another portion of that conversation. This is actually. I thought. I thought it was interesting. I never picked this up on the first time, so I never. But I'll. I'll just play it.

[D]

Gotta pray the bad thoughts away, hon, and try. The demons are fighting hard to get you.

[E]

I know. I feel like they've already gotten me. I'm already in hell.

[D]

Well, you're kind of a physical hell right now, but.

[Anya Cain]

Did you hear that? The demons are fighting hard to get you. And he says, I think they've already got me. I think he's right. I think they've had him for a long time. She seems to think that that means like, whatever kind of mental issues are prompting him to conf. But, you know, interesting. I think this guy's had a murderous impulse for a long time that he's just not satisfied until 2017 when he went out there to rape and kill somebody. Now the conversation's clearly not really. Okay, well, actually, this is the new one to see. This is the last one, last call. That was released June 11, 2022. It's Kathy again. Here we're going to think I see something in the level of kind of control or Allen's attempts to control people, others, that I thought was interesting.

[E]

Captain. What? I did it. Do you still love me?

[D]

Yes, dear. But you didn't do it.

[E]

Why do you say that?

[D]

Why do you say it?

[E]

I don't want to upset you.

[D]

I'm pretty upset.

[E]

I'm sorry. I don't know what I'm doing. Feel like I've lost my mind.

[D]

Honey, you can't call me and talk like this, okay? You killing me.

[E]

I'm so sorry, baby.

[D]

I can't talk to you right.

[E]

I didn't want to do this. You're not going to do anything to yourself, are you?

[D]

No.

[E]

Probably gonna. Have. Probably gonna have to kill myself now.

[D]

Stop.

[Anya Cain]

He said at the end they're probably gonna have to kill myself now. That to me, is just an overt manipulation effort there. Oh, yeah, clearly, you know, you didn't react in the way I wanted you to. So I'm gonna kill Myself.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, no, don't kill yourself.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, no, no. That. You're so good. I love you. Yeah, it's just like. Like I didn't. I never want to use the phrase master manipulator to. Just. To describe Richard Allen, because he's not. He's really clumsy and overt and just very close to the surface about it. But he is a manipulative person. That. That is apparent from. From the testimony we heard about his behavior, from the. Just the way he behaved in court. Frankly, everything I have learned about this person since trial underscores to me that this is a man who is used to just manipulating those around him, and in this case, controlling family members with threats of violence. He's not threatening Kathy, of course. He's threatening to harm himself, but he's using violence and threats of violence as a way to get what he wants, which is for her to love him. Yeah, but she won't do that. Maybe. I don't know. I don't know. Kathy Allen. I don't know whether she. She cannot love somebody who did that to two girls or if it's just hard for her to accept that her husband of, you know, so many years turned out to be whatever this is. You know, I get that that's difficult, but it's. He's just continuing to manipulate her. And I think from the outside that something like that's really obvious. I think maybe when you're in that situation, it's a lot harder to see, you know, to. To recognize that that's what's happening. But that is what is happening there. Make no mistake. I think at one point. Did you hear her say, you're killing me, or something like that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Something like that.

[Anya Cain]

Something like that. So, you know, the level of harm he's inflicted on her is pretty extreme. But, you know, he, at this point, kind of drops off on his confessions. He's already damaged himself extensively. He's already given detailed confession, detailed confession to Dr. Monica Walla in which he notes that he saw a white van, that there's no way anyone but the killer could have seen that day. So, I mean, he's. His confession. Orama, you know, has. Has definitely. It's ending at this point, but the damage is already done to his case. Although I will note that when we talk to a juror, obviously in our interview, the thing that stuck out for them was the timeline. So, I mean, it wasn't even the confessions that sealed the deal for most of the jury, for all the jurors, for, you know, it was Kind of the basic evidence of him putting himself.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There and listening to him. You just wonder if they had listened to him and really engaged with what he was trying to tell them. You wonder if there would have been a trial, if the families and all of us would have had to go through that. And you wonder if maybe he would have tried to actually apologize to the family instead.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, I think. I think it would have been totally different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you wonder if now, if they were engaging with him, would they be. With this appeal be happening?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I mean, I. I don't. I mean, who knows? I don't know. I guess we'll never know, obviously. But I think there would be a less likely possibility of going to trial. And I think. I mean, I think it's important for everyone to. Richard Allen owns his actions. That's his fault. That's not his relative's fault. What he did is his fault. What he. He. His behavior is his behavior. So I think we just need to remember that. And I don't think there's any indication in these calls, at least, that anyone had any active knowledge about what he did that day. I think there's reasonable questions to be had about maybe questions that should have been asked maybe even earlier than all this came crashing down.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. It didn't come out that Richard Allen told Kathy not to participate in the search parties when they were looking for the girls on the night they went missing.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. But, you know, there's no accounting for being in denial.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Which is a strong force. And maintaining the stasis and status quo of your relationship is something a lot of people do in situations that are far less serious than a murder investigation, obviously. But people stay in unhappy marriages, people stay in troubled marriages. You know, it's not necessarily out there, but a lot of people are just like personalities where they're not going to rock the boat. And if that means kind of looking away and looking. Averting their eyes when it comes to maybe things that they should have asked about or things they should have gotten clarity. Clarity on. I think that's. That's not something that's terribly uncommon. And I. I just. I. In a way, I feel. I feel a lot of pity for Kathy Allen because I think what. What has happened is, you know, with the defense team that they got involved with, she's probably hearing a lot about what she wants to hear right now. She's surrounded by sycophants who are going to continue to basically perpetuate this fiction that her husband did nothing wrong. And that is in a Way worse than just accepting reality because she doesn't get to move on as long as she's in that situation. And it's tragic because she's not a killer. She didn't. I don't believe she knew anything about this. She deserves to get. She deserves to move on with her life.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

She deserves to not be hitching her wagon to the falling exploding supernova star of Richard Allen, which will just continue to drag her down for as long as she kind of orbits that. So in a way she continues to be his victim, in my view.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

But anyways, any other thoughts about Alan or things that surprised you? I mean, on these re listens, obviously we heard them in trial, but very interesting to get to re. Listen. Pause. Oh, wait, what was said there?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we didn't have that luxury during trial.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we're gonna be like, hey, Judge Gull, can you pause it for a second? Can we hear that again? That would have gone over really well, I'm sure. I think this is a situation where it's enlightening to kind of get to really parse some of it. So appreciate again, Tom Webster. We only covered a fraction.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Go, let's go check out Tom Webster's channel. I think it underscores the fact that if Judge Goal had done things differently, if she had done things the way I think almost any other judge in the country would have done and made some choices to allow this evidence and this trial to be held more openly, I don't think we'd have all of these conspiracy theories out there. Yeah, sure, there are people out there who are married to the idea of Richard Allen being a great guy and who hero worshiped Richard Allen and there's nothing you can do about those people. We're always going to have nuts with us. We're always going to have cranks with us. But I think the vast majority of reasonable minded people who had reasonable questions about the evidence and the process, I think their concerns would have been mitigated and completely done away with if Judge Goal had allowed this process to be more open. There could have been a camera in the courtroom. There could have been an audio feed in the courtroom. There could have been like a delayed broadcast. There's lots of things she could have done so that more accurate information could have reached the public sooner. I think it's an outrageous situation that the public who is interested in this case is only just now getting the opportunity to see this information some six months after the trial. It's an outrageous situation and I think the lingering conspiracy Theories. That's. That's Judge Gull. That's her legacy. That's what she did to this case.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, the public access issues were pretty bad, but, I mean, legally, we thought she did pretty good. So, I mean, it's one of those weird dichotomies, but I. I think this is a situation where. I don't know, like, it's weird to hear it again. Like, I feel like I'm having flashbacks to trial sometimes, whenever any of this stuff comes up where you're just like, oh, my gosh. I remember when I first heard his voice, it was just like, oh, my goodness. Like, that's. That's bridge guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's bridge guy. Richard. Richard Allen killed.

[Anya Cain]

We listened to that voice so many times over the years. We were just listening to it and everybody else that I heard speak in any capacity, it was pretty like. No, that's not. It's not. It. For example, Kagan Klein never thought his voice matched at all. Descriptions of Tony Klein, his voice, as it was described, kind of high, kind of womanly. Not. Not what. Not what I hear in that Bridge guy audio. Yeah, Richard Allen. It's Richard Allen. It's. It's just. That is his voice. He. He is bridge guy. He is the killer. There's. I mean, it feels kind of silly to say that now that there's been a jury verdict that, you know, confirms that, but you do still see a lot of doubt. You see a lot of lingering doubts. And I mean, hopefully what Tom has done here is help clear some of that up by. By sunlight, by letting in the sunlight, letting people see the evidence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, you know, I appreciate Tom getting some of these exhibits out. I'm sure other exhibits will come out, too. And again, I just wish Judge Goal had allowed the public more access to these things all throughout the process, because a lot of the lingering questions and a lot of the craziness would not be here.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I'm going to tell you, some of it would always be here because these are. We're talking about, like, two people with like 20 different alts between them. And. And, you know, I mean, it's. It just reminds me, me of, you know, like the legend at the end of World War II. Like, years later, there'd be like, you know, I don't know if this is. This sounds like one of those things that's probably ahistorical, but it matches here. But, like, the Japanese soldiers on the island, where it's like 20 years later, they still think the war is on. That's what that's the mentality of some of these people that would still be going on. But I think, I think you're right. I think the, the people who are more of like. Well, I just, I don't really get it. I don't really get the case. I think they would have a better understanding for sure. But the, the, the level of the, like, cranks, I mean, they're in it for life. This is just their personality. They want to worship a child murderer. That's. That's weird. I mean, that's just a weird thing to do, in my opinion. I think that's pretty messed up and people doing that have some pretty extreme issues. But, but for the people who are more just like, I don't really get the case against him. I'm not really sure. I'm not convinced by what I heard in the media. Yes, they're. They're people who are reasonable and their questions are quite reasonable, in my opinion. But. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And obviously we have a book about it coming out with which I hope will answer any lingering questions people have.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think, I think it will. I think there's gonna be some pretty surprising details in this. But anyway, thank you all for listening. Thanks for dealing. Sorry, some of the audio's not the best. It's just, you know, we're dealing with recording systems and whatnot, so hopefully everyone can hear stuff. But again, please go check out Tom's website. Tom's channel will link to it. Check out the individual videos, check out his commentary. You're going to hear so much more than what we put out here. This is just a really small sampling of what was in there, but thank you again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail].

[Anya Cain]

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting. So we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I've got two of their Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're a brand that just does this sort of luxurious products, but without the crazy costs. Really. Well, they are. They give you Italian leather handbags. They do like European linen sheets. You have a really cool suede jacket. And I really like the way I look in my sweaters. I like the way you look in your bomber jacket. It looks super cool.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've gotten a lot of compliments when you go out wearing these sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

I think I have, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And deservedly so.

[Anya Cain]

Also, like, I'm one of those people. My skin is very like, you know, like I kind of sensitive. So when it comes to wearing sweaters, like, you know, sometimes it's something's too scratchy, like it really bothers me. These are so soft. They're just like very delicate and soft and make. They're wearing them is lovely because they're super comfortable. You're not. You're not. It's not one of those things where you're like, you buy it and it looks great, but it doesn't feel that great. They look great. They feel great. Yeah. I really love them. And you got, you know, your cool jacket. I mean, that's a little bit of a. You're the guy who like wears the same thing all the time. So this is a bit of a gamble for you, a bit of a risk. You got something a bit different.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

I know you wash your clothes, but I mean, you're filthy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You made me sound awful, so. No, I wash my clothes.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I launder them.

[Anya Cain]

You don't really experiment with fashion that much is what I'm saying. So this is a little bit out of the norm for you, but I think you really like it and it looks good.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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