The Delphi Murders: The Appellate Reply Brief Part Two

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Summary

Episode: The Delphi Murders: The Appellate Reply Brief Part Two
Date: April 28, 2026
Hosts: Áine Cain (journalist), Kevin Greenlee (attorney)

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the in-depth analysis of the reply brief filed by the appellate team for Richard Allen, who was convicted of murdering Liberty German and Abigail Williams in the high-profile Delphi case. Áine and Kevin scrutinize the appellate arguments, critique the defense strategies, and discuss the broader implications—both legal and rhetorical—of the defense’s approach. The hosts also highlight the recurring Odinism cult theory, witness sketch disputes, and claims about investigative thoroughness, emphasizing where they believe the appeals stretch or distort the facts.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Confessions & Psychosis Defense

Timestamps: 04:09–11:47

• Defense’s claim: Confessions and incriminating statements by Richard Allen resulted from a psychotic state or while he was recovering from psychosis (04:09).
  • Quote: “Allen's statement expressing guilt correspond with his psychosis, a time he does not even remember…” (Kevin, 04:21).
• Hosts’ critique: Áine expresses annoyance at the defense’s “poor me” tone, arguing that Allen isn’t the victim and that displaying symptoms of distress doesn’t prove psychosis.
  • Quote: “You can be curled up in a fetal position and not psychotic. All of this, like, they just… oh, he was at a fetal position, so I guess we better disregard what he says. You can be despondent and upset about what you did and upset about the consequences…” (Áine, 05:58).
• Expert testimony: Áine recounts Dr. Deanna Dwanger’s trial statements, suggesting Allen may have been malingering (faking illness).
  • Áine: “I don’t see him as someone who was psychotic at all… he may have pretended to be crazy.” (07:40)
• State’s position: His statements arose from religious awakening, guilt, and seeing discovery materials.
• Defense’s retort: Accuses the state of speculation, which the hosts call ironic because the defense itself speculates extensively (09:30).

2. Prison Behavior & Interpretation

Timestamps: 09:35–13:42

• Áine discusses extreme prison behaviors not necessarily indicating mental illness (“control or defiance”).
  • “A lot of this has more to do with him just being a weak and pusillanimous person versus actually having mental illness.” (Áine, 10:50)
• Discussion of how behaviors like smearing feces or making messes can be a form of exerting control in a restrictive environment.

3. Sketch of “Bridge Guy” and Witness Testimony

Timestamps: 16:37–25:40

• Appellate complaint: Exclusion of witness Betsy Blair's sketch of “Bridge Guy” was a reversible error.
• Hosts’ analysis:
  • Kevin points out that if defense truly believed Blair hadn’t seen Allen, they could have cross-examined her directly. “If they were convinced...why didn’t they ask her...is this person you saw Richard Allen?” (Kevin, 17:52)
  • Áine is dismissive of the significance of witness sketches: “Acting as if these things are the end all, be all is… just so stupid.” (Áine, 20:55)
  • Kevin: “The sketch is based on her verbal description. They got her verbal description into evidence at trial.” (20:55)
• Key argument: Sketches are less reliable than direct testimony and easily misconstrued. Defense may have sought to confuse jurors visually (23:07).

4. Defense Expert Critique: Dawn Perlmutter & the Odinism Theory

Timestamps: 25:46–36:51

• Who is Dawn Perlmutter? Brought in as an expert during the defense attempt to introduce an “Odinist” cult theory (that the murders were a ritual killing).
  • Áine dismisses her credentials: “Her credentials are garbage in my opinion…” (Anya, 25:59)
  • Perlmutter’s methodology framed as “vibes and making stuff up” (26:22).
  • Áine: “Don Perlmutter is a buffoon. Dawn Perlmutter is a buffoon.” (29:55)
• Prosecution response: Major Cicero, crime scene expert, countered Perlmutter by demonstrating blood evidence was from Libby’s attempts to stem her own wounds—not ritual marking.
• Hosts’ consensus: The Odinism theory was unsubstantiated, “satanic panic 2.0,” and the defense could have found more plausible third-party suspects if desired (36:51).

5. Third-Party Suspect & Alibi Claims

Timestamps: 39:53–50:47

• Defense argument: Points to a local man, Brad Holder, and his son as potential suspects, citing his alleged pagan ritual leadership and social media posts.
  • Áine and Kevin expose these as misleading and refuted—Holder had working alibis substantiated by work and gym records (47:48).
  • Áine: “You can think people’s religion's weird… [but] if someone has an alibi, they have an alibi. You can think they're weird. Doesn't mean they're murderers.” (41:01)
• Allusions to supposed “ritual” evidence: Hosts explain the “rune-like” sticks claim is unsubstantiated, and experts did not find rune symbols at the scene (43:47).

6. Miscellaneous Issues Raised by Defense

Timestamps: 50:53–55:51

• “Crazy” prison tapes: Defense argues jury should have heard Allen’s incoherent prison statements as evidence of unreliability. Hosts point out the jury was unconvinced by similar evidence (51:10).
• Libby’s phone “headphone jack” argument: Defense suggests killer stayed at the scene until at least 5:45 pm to plug in headphones; hosts find this extremely implausible and likely just a malfunction due to dirt/moisture (52:04–55:51).
  • “Why stay there? Why plug in headphones?” (Kevin, 55:08)

7. Critiques of Defense and Appeal Overall

Timestamps: 55:59–68:58

• Áine and Kevin find the defense’s claims—multiple-killer requirement, misinterpretation of evidence, reliance on their own ignorance—deeply unconvincing.
  • Áine: “People feel like if they just say something, it just makes it true. And you can say things as much as you want, but to me, that just makes you look like a liar. If it's not true, I mean, what's next?” (57:05)
• On procedural matters: They explain likely next steps (possible oral argument, predicted loss for Allen, then potential post-conviction relief efforts). (60:43)
  • Kevin: “I fully expect Richard Allen to die in prison and never experience another breath of air as a free man.” (67:09)
  • Áine: “Died in fear and went through hell before they died. So I… hope he, you know, never gets out. I think he's an evil, evil person.” (67:30)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the confessions:
  • “No matter what he says tomorrow, if he takes out an ad in the New York Times tomorrow and says, I did it, would they say, well, you know, it takes time. It takes time to recover from the solitary confinement stick.” —Kevin (05:24)
• On defense tone:
  • “I cannot stand the poor me tone and the saccharine nonsense that so much of this carries—just a poor Rick. Aw, you killed two girls and it messed up your life. That is so sad.” —Áine (05:58)
• On Perlmutter and expert witnesses:
  • “Don Perlmutter is a buffoon. Dawn Perlmutter is a buffoon. If the FBI actually used her in anything, then whoever made that decision is also a buffoon. You should not be using charlatans.” —Áine (29:55)
  • “Completely demolished her. She said she couldn’t think of any other case like this that would, would have been a ritual murder.” —Kevin (29:19)
• On the defense’s “Odinism” theory:
  • “That’s what this is. It’s satanic panic, too. Time is a flat circle.” —Áine (33:42)
  • “They’re just lying. I’m sorry. Like, I’m trying to like freaking, you know, I’m trying to be like respectful here. But I just, this is just nonsense.” —Áine (35:35)
• On the headphone jack claim:
  • “I don’t think that’s the least bit plausible, especially when you consider that… Abby was only moved very minimally…” —Áine (53:37)
• On the overall appeal:
  • “If you had to summarize all of this, the back and forth and just this appeal… I think it’s pretty weak tea. I don’t expect this to go anywhere.” —Kevin (67:09)

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------| | 04:09 | Confession & psychosis argument | | 09:35 | Prison behavior and defense logic | | 16:37 | Witness sketch dispute | | 25:46 | Dawn Perlmutter & Odinism theory | | 39:53 | Third-party suspects & alibi claims | | 50:53 | Prison tapes & “crazy” evidence | | 52:04 | Libby’s phone headphone argument | | 55:59 | Appeal process & summary | | 60:43 | Post-conviction relief discussion | | 67:09 | Closing thoughts on outcome |

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Tone and Takeaways

• Language: Witty, biting, occasionally profane, and deeply critical of the defense.
• Perspective: Strongly skeptical of the defense’s appellate arguments and belief in Allen’s guilt is unequivocal.
• Themes:
  • Rhetorical excesses and factual stretching by the defense.
  • The danger of “satanic panic” and unreliable experts.
  • The importance of evidence versus speculation.
  • Many appellate points are seen by the hosts as rehashes or distortions of trial events already litigated.

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Final Thoughts

Kevin and Áine see little merit in the appeal, regard the “ritual” theories as a confusion tactic, and predict no relief for Allen. They express frustration with ongoing online advocacy for Allen and the methods of some of his supporters, emphasizing the importance of sound reasoning and reliable evidence.

“I feel like this...half truth masquerading as a whole truth becomes a complete untruth. I feel like that's just this document…[they] bend the truce to the point where it breaks.” —Áine (57:05, 68:08)

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This summary is designed to provide a comprehensive understanding of the episode’s arguments, tone, and conclusions for listeners or readers seeking a clear and informative recap.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm Kevin and today we are going to conclude, hopefully, our discussion of the most recent brief filed by Richard Allen's appellate team and his ongoing murder case involving his murder of Liberty German and Abigail Williams.

[Anya Cain]

Content WARNING this episode contains discussion of the murder of two girls.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we pick up where we left off in our last episode, I wanted to very quickly thank, thank rather, the Indiana chapter of the Society of Professional Journalists who were kind enough to give us an award for our book on this case.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Shadow of the Bridge, the Delphi Murders and the Dark side of the American Heartland won an award. We were very proud and we were especially proud to receive that from professional journalists. And it really meant a lot to us getting the first prize in nonfiction books from that esteemed organization. And we thank them and we, you know, we're dedicated to continuing to cover this case when, when it's appropriate and when we can shed a light on some of the facts. But if you're somebody who has kind of followed the case and has kind of just followed maybe the headlines or kind of just, you know, some discussions online. I'm not just tooting our horns because we wrote the book. I think we've heard from other people that they found this book a very, very comprehensive review of the case that you can kind of read and understand everything. It can be difficult to process information when you're kind of just doing it hodgepodge and piecemeal. Having something where it takes you from the beginning to the end in a narrative form is something that I think could behoove a lot of people. We still get questions from people they'll email us and they'll be asking us stuff. And it's like, we covered this in the book. Like, I mean, it's. It's on sale. There's lots of different sales. You can get it audiobook, ebook, or hardcover. And I would strongly recommend. I think it's a good. I think it's a really good foundation to build upon in terms of your knowledge of this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let's get to it.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Delphi the Appellate Reply Brief, Part 2. It.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We were talking about when we concluded our previous episode, we were talking about how Mr. Allen's appellate team characterized his confessions and his incriminating statements. They took the position that we think he only made these confessions and incriminating statements when we believe he was in a psychotic state. And they acknowledge. Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you what they acknowledge. Quote, Allen's statement expressing guilt correspond with his psychosis, a time he does not even remember. And then according to him. And then there's a footnote. I'm going to read the footnote. The state cites one Exception, that in February 2024, Allen apologized for killing the girls. However, he was curled in a fetal position, talking to himself, still on antipsych medication, and fluctuating between calm and hysterical. It takes time to heal from the damage the solitary confinement caused. End quote. So they're saying even when he made a confession or an incriminating statement, whatever you want to call it.

[Anya Cain]

What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, outside the time he was allegedly psychotic, it still counts as being psychotic because he was still recovering from it. So at this point, no matter what he says tomorrow, if he takes out an ad in the New York Times tomorrow and says, I did it, would they say, well, you know, it takes time. It takes time to recover from the solitary confinement stick. Yeah, I wanted to highlight that because I thought it was. It was dumb.

[Anya Cain]

I also just can't stand, and this is more of a rhetorical criticism, but I cannot stand the poor me tone and the saccharine nonsense that so much of this carries of just a poor Rick. Aw, you killed two girls and it messed up your life. That is so sad. I mean, like, he's not the victim here, you know? Also, you can be curled up in a fetal position and not psychotic. I don't know why. Like. Like, I don't. All of this, like, they. They just. Oh, he was at a fetal position, so I guess we better disregard what he says. You can be despondent and upset about what you did and upset about the consequences, frankly, which is. I think he cares more about the fact he got caught than actually feeling bad about what he did to those kids personally. But I think, you know, but either way, like, him being upset or curled up or whatever, it doesn't matter. I mean, like, that's not. Has nothing to do. I care a lot more about, like, what the experts say. And, you know, I was at that trial, and a Dr. Deanna Dwanger, who was one of the people kind of leading the care for Richard Allen, who was, like, meeting with Dr. Wallen, doing all this stuff, talked extensively about, not only about how all of them know, a bunch of them at least felt that there was a very good likelihood that he was malingering. But also she also described how psychosis can look and some of the different types of psychotic episodes and whatnot. And the jury heard all that. She was called as a defense witness. Stacy Deener, who was one of the, you know, the deputy prosecutors on this case, was basically able to flip her over to being a prosecution witness because all she described did not at all align with what anybody heard from Richard Allen. What Richard. What we heard from Richard Allen, I personally believe was a extended hissy fit that ultimately disrupted his own health because he took it that far. But I don't. I don't see him as somebody who was psychotic at all. I think at anything, he may have pretended to be crazy. Maybe that was a way for him to shield himself from the consequences of his actions on some psychological level. But I don't. I don't believe. When you. When you are psychotic and you're not making sense, you are jumping from thing to thing. Things are very chaotic. Your mind is kind of fighting against you. You're saying things that don't make any sense. When he's recorded as confessing and when he's described as confessing, in many of the instances, he is calmly trying to convince somebody, hey, I did this. You know, it's not. It's not at all. So when they're saying, like, fetal position, as if that means anything, it. I don't know. It's just. It. It just. It rankles me because it's like, we've already been through all this, and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And of course, the state has taken the position that his confessions and incriminating statements were not caused by psychosis, but rather by his religious awakening and his guilt, and also by seeing some of the discovery that he was given by his attorneys shortly before some of this behavior began. But the defense retorts, quote, the state's theories that Allen's discovery and religious conversion independently caused his confessions are speculative and are no different than arguing that a person who confessed after being beaten might have confessed anyway because he was guilty. AMYA

[Anya Cain]

it's very rich that they're calling anything in this speculative

[Kevin Greenlee]

because there seems to be a lot of speculation in

[Anya Cain]

this document, seems to be in an incredible amount of speculation on their parts, you know, like, oh, you know, he's still psychotic months later after he was last, you know, even believed to be psychotic, or even things like, oh, he was on antipsychotic medicine. Yeah, that, that makes a big difference. I remember when the trial was going on, we heard from like a dozen nurses. Like, I mean, like, we heard maybe a dozen was too much, but definitely a bunch were like, that's not how Haldol works. Haldol doesn't make you psychotic. It's an anti psychotic. I wrote down something, you know, as far as, like, you know, why he would be acting in some of these kind of ways that are, you know, certainly off putting to people who are not in this situation. But if you ask people who work in prisons, a lot of pretty extreme behavior goes on. And sometimes it's not actually about having a mental illness. Sometimes it's more about control or defiance or you have very little control in prison, especially in the environment Richard Allen was in and doing things like making a big mess with your own bodily fluids or feces, doing things like saying weird stuff or kind of being, you know, just off the wall. There is, you know, that can happen. It does. It doesn't. You know, I think sometimes it's like they're just like, oh, ignore the fact that, you know, some of this stuff is actually more commonplace than you would think. They're almost just trying to get people who are more normies, who are not aware of, like, some of this stuff I wrote down in terms of his behaviors, though, or he's a pathetic little fill in the blank, because I'm not going to say it, but, like, I think a lot of this has more to do with him just being a weak and pusillanimous person versus actually having mental illness. You can have a mental illness and do a violent thing, right? I mean, like, they're not mutually exclusive and that, that can certainly happen. I just, I personally do not believe that he was mentally ill to, to the point where he was having psychotic, that, that, that this was psychotic episodes. I don't, I don't think that was the case at all. I think he did do end up doing damage to his own health and whatnot. But I think a lot of this was more about him trying to, you know, being a weird little control freak, which is what we know he was because we've talked to people who knew him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think he had some more stuff you wanted to say.

[Anya Cain]

They talked about how Dr. Walla admitted that Allen's decline started before his receipt of discovery and that she had never seen Allen's discovery despite hypothesizing in a clinical note that it possibly triggered his breakdown. Even if discovery contributed to Allen's compensation, it does not sever the state's causal contribution. A pre trial detainee does not respond to receiving legal papers by eating feces, ripping mail, and writing a confession under a cell door. I mean, they might if they realize they're totally effed, like, or they want to control something or they want to. I mean, like they're, I mean, them just unilaterally saying that doesn't happen. Well, why, why not? What's the basis of saying that. Yeah, that bizarre behaviors don't happen with people trying to control what little they can control in prison or that people can't realize they're totally screwed and not want to go through trial where they're. All of their horrible deeds are described in humiliating detail in front of their friends and family. I mean, I don't know, like a lot when, when you, like, you can't just assert, oh, that can't happen. That's only because he's, he's crazy. No, it can happen for a lot of reasons. They. Oh, this, yeah, everyone give me a break about that. It takes hot time for heal from the damage. They cite a case that I thought was interesting. They say this is a so quote in Banks, police interviewed a heavily medicated mentally ill detainee who later did not even remember confessing. Here, police collected confessions of a heavily, heavily medicated mentally ill Allen who later did not even remember confessing. Just as so he says we stay busy with the podcast. So I like my wardrobe to stay comfortable, easy and intentional. Something that I could put on that feels great while also looking super put together when we're going out to court or to an interview.

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[Anya Cain]

Yak. Just as law enforcement caused banks confession by interviewing him when they should not have, the state here caused Allen's confession through prolonged solitary confinement. Allen's confessions were not a product of rational intellect but rather a psychosis caused by the state's indifference to his mental health. I mean this is just like stunningly bad faith but also like you're describing two totally different situations. The State again when they'd say oh they're collecting these, he's making, he's choosing to make phone calls that he knows are being recorded. I don't know what to tell you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The state collects all outgoing communications.

[Anya Cain]

They didn't do that, specially in this case. That's just the system. Obviously a situation where police investigators are investig are interviewing a detainee who is heavily medicated and mentally ill. I could see that turning into a problem pretty quickly because you have a situation where the person may not be in their right mind. They may be being subtly influenced by the situation. And by being detained and being interviewed by an investigator, depending on the circumstances, maybe that could influence things unfairly. Would you agree?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would agree.

[Anya Cain]

This is not that situ. Like it's not even close. I just, I'M like, I don't know. I don't see how an appellate court could buy this. I just find it so, like, just on its face, ridiculous. But I don't know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they'll be like, yeah, that's really compelling. If that's the case, I don't even know what to tell you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should we move on to the sketch, or is there stuff you want to say before the sketch?

[Anya Cain]

Go back to the frigging sketch. Let me look. I said, yeah. They're talking about they committed reversible error by excluding the sketch of bridge Guy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the sketch. They're talking about the sketch of, made by or made at the behest of witness Betsy Blair. Quote, the trial court committed reversible error by excluding Blair's sketch of bridge Guy. No eyewitness identified Allen as Bridge Guy at trial. To prove Allen was bridge Guy, the state rested its case on a compressed timeline where every witness needed to have seen the same person. Blair did not see Allen. Her sketch proves it. End quote. Before we start talking about the sketch, I want to make what I think is an obvious point. Maybe it's not. If Mr. Allen's distinguished defense team of Andrew Baldwin, Brad, Rosie and Jennifer O.J. if they were convinced that Betsy Blair had not seen Bridge Guy, why didn't they ask her on the standard? Why didn't they say, is this person you saw Richard Allen? Because if she did not see Richard Allen and testified to that fact, that would have been devastating.

[Anya Cain]

What are you talking about? I mean, she never said she. She said she saw Bridge Guy she

[Kevin Greenlee]

never identified, but they're saying she did not see Richard Allen. They're saying maybe she saw bridge Guy, but she didn't see Richard Allen. And I'm saying, if they believe she didn't see Richard Allen, why not ask her, is this the man you saw that day?

[Anya Cain]

Why do you think they didn't ask her that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

They were worried about the answer.

[Anya Cain]

Oh,

[Kevin Greenlee]

because if you're convinced she saw somebody else and this sketch, this sketch proved she saw somebody else, you can say, did you see this man?

[Anya Cain]

And they would have been allowed to do that. Potentially.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They could have said, this person you saw, do you see him in the courtroom today?

[Anya Cain]

And if she said, yeah, it's Richard, it's that guy right there, I mean, they could have certainly impeached her with what you said. It was a boyish guy with poofy hair and it doesn't look like our guy. But I guess then would the sketches have come in at that point, the

[Kevin Greenlee]

sketches, that's what the argument is. The sketches are based on her description of who she saw. And of course, in the trial it was brought up what her description was. And in some ways her description didn't seem to match Richard Allen, as is reflected in the sketch. So they could have said, is this the person you saw? You don't need the sketch to impeach her. You don't need the sketch to ask that question. Is this the person you saw? You can say you gave this description. That doesn't sound like Richard Allen. Is Richard Allen the person you saw?

[Anya Cain]

And they didn't ask her that because they didn't want to open that can of worms? Potentially, yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then they make the argument that the sketch is more important than the description she gave the police artist who made the sketch.

[Anya Cain]

That doesn't make any sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The state argues that the sketch was cumulative because Allen elicited Blair's verbal description on cross examination. But a syllogism is not a story. Blair's description, broken into fragments by questions from lawyers, is no substitute for the sketch's persuasive force. Only by viewing the complete image, the full face Blair drew three days after the murders, could the jury appreciate Allen's claim of innocence. End quote. The sketch is based on her verbal description. They got her verbal description into evidence at trial. Could ask any questions, any relevant questions you have about her description, including this description, in my mind, doesn't sound like Richard Allen was Richard Allen the man you saw.

[Anya Cain]

I just feel like a sketch doesn't. Okay. Personally I don't, I don't like sketches. Like, I don't like them releasing them. I think it, there's just too much room for mistakenness in terms of someone's fleeting memory. And then you don't, it's a, it's an artistic rendering of your fleeting memory. I think sometimes they can be helpful, but oftentimes they're simply not. But forget my views on sketches like acting as if these things are the end all, be all is, is just so stupid. I, I like obviously having like a witness identification or something that like, that can be important. But we all know that like just any rudimentary study of psychology and true crime will frankly tell you that witnesses can make mistakes. It doesn't mean that they're lying. It's just that sometimes a witness sighting might be colored by their own personal perspectives and experiences. You have different things where like an older person might see a younger person when maybe it's really a middle aged perpetrator you have instances where across race, people can have a hard time identifying somebody or they might make a mistake. And, like, there's all these different things. And the important thing with Blair and Carbaugh is that they. They felt. They testified to seeing the guy in Libby's video. That's more important to me than a glimpse that they had of a face and whatever their brain did in that instance of saying, oh, you know, I mean, and let's also. Let's also, like, not oversell this. Do I think the Blair sketch looks like Allen? Not particularly, but do I. Do I think that Allen has a kind of roundish. I'm not trying to be unkind, but, like, kind of a plumper face. And can that read as young to somebody if they're seeing it in an instance? Yes. I mean, I think she saw Richard Allen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And again, if I say, oh, I saw somebody who had a mustache, and I say that in front of a jury, I think the jury understands what I'm saying. They don't need a drawing of a guy with a mustache to understand what I'm saying. The drawing doesn't affect my description.

[Anya Cain]

But you know what? Humans are so visual and so visually oriented. I think what the defense wanted to do here was basically confuse people or burn that image into their mind and be like, well, it can't be this guy. I think that was the goal, and I think that's stupid and dishonest. I don't think it. You know, and. And what is also stupid and dishonest is this appellate team going on and on about how, like, it proves anything. A witness statement doesn't prove anything. I would also say that on the other side, you know, I mean, I think someone thinking they saw a person somewhere, that can be compelling if combined with other evidence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Certainly what ultimately is persuasive. Here's the way everything fits together.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. It's not the end all be all of anything. It should never be the end all be all of a case, whether it's the prosecution, but also in this case, you know, it's not the end all be all of. Of some defense thing, I think. And again, let's. Let's remember this case did not get solved because Kathy Allen woke up one day and looked at the sketches and said, ooh, I think. I think I live with this guy. It. No one, the CVS employees, nobody sat down and said, okay, I think that actually looks like Richard Allen. This case got solved in a different way. So why. Why does this matter? It's not. It's not even, like, coming into it in terms of, like, it actually had an impact on anything. It simply didn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

Sketches did nothing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The sketches did nothing. They're. They're basically a visual representation of her description which was given in the trial. And again, if you believe that her description doesn't fit Richard Allen, and you believe that proves she didn't see Richard Allen, you could put the question to her in the trial. And they chose not to do that.

[Anya Cain]

I didn't even, really, like, pick up on that at the time. But, yeah, that is interesting. You know, there's a lot of things they didn't do during the trial that now they're trying to, like, relitigate.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Their. Their ballistics expert didn't even look at the. At the bullet.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, they. They actually didn't provide, I think, a substantive amount of Dr. Monica Wall's reports to their so called, you know, person who was going to be their psychology expert, Dr. Polly Westcott. And again, I'm not questioning her credentials, but I am questioning her analysis. If they're not even providing her with the kind of holistic overview she needs to provide that, I think a lot of things in this are just like smoke and mirrors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this next section I can talk about, but I kind of think of it as your territory.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin was like, anya, you're gonna be so mad. And I was like, what? And he's like, there's a whole Perlmutter section.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Tell us about Don Perlmutter.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, man. Man.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'll kick back.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, you're gonna just watch the house explode. Don Plummer. So, okay, when we. Okay, when we. Years and years and years eons ago, when the defense was trying to put together its Odinism theory, they had to have some experts come in and say what this odinistic sacrifice would have looked like. Are there examples like, what proof can we have that this really was a ritualistic killing, let alone one involving Norse pagans? And we know for a fact, because people told us this, that they had gotten calls from, like, Andrew Baldwin. Like a week, like, not a couple weeks, maybe. I don't know. I don't want to exaggerate. Maybe like, like a pretty. Would you say, like, pretty shortly before the hearing? Yeah, kind of like a shockingly short distance from the hearing. He's calling people and asking them, hey, can you be my Odinist expert? And they seem desperate, in other words. And so what happened with Perlmutter was this was a woman who would, like, go on Court TV and, like, talk about the case and Be like it's definitely a ritualistic killing. And you know, her credentials were. And she, I mean this is just what I got from the three day hearing where they brought her on as their expert. Her credentials are garbage in my opinion. And my opinion is based on like she has this appeal. So her, I think her degree was in like art history and she has a degree in the forensic medicine program at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine. Red flag. In addition to that. This is the most horrifying part about Perlmutter for me. She's apparently actually been used by federal authorities before. I think all of the cases she was involved in should be heavily scrutinized and if she went towards any. So anyone getting convicted like that terrifies me. She talked about her methodology which is basically like vibes and making stuff up. As far as I could tell. She's like oh, the profilers at the behavioral analysis unit with the FBI, they're, they're more about psychology. I look at, you know, I, I determine whether something's a ritual killing based on whether it's outside and with a knife and like, like, like it didn't make any sense. Symbology. So it's like your methodology is that you're told by people who are paying you what symbols they want you to find and then you find them. Like she's basically like looking for an outcome. Her theory is unscientific. It makes no sen. I think her only other claim to fame was like trying to get involved in some case where they were like prosecuting people and she was claiming like antifa, some kind of like massive cult. I mean she's not a serious person in my opinion. I felt like I almost lost my mind listening to her at that three day hearing because it was just so insulting to the like time of the court and the intelligence and the day. It already gone on way too long. And Baldwin's having her go on through this like you know, three hour directing examination about all her like non existing credentials. And then McClelland just completely demolished her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Completely demolished her. She said she couldn't think of any other case like this that would, would have been a ritual murder. Couldn't come up with a case.

[Anya Cain]

No. Couldn't come up with a similar case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This expert, she also, if it's a

[Anya Cain]

ritual, don't they do it again and again.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She also admitted that she had expressed her conclusions about the case months before she saw any information or materials. She, she went on Court TV and shared her opinion. The day the Franks report came out she had no credibility.

[Anya Cain]

I want to say something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She was a disastrous witness.

[Anya Cain]

Don Perlmutter is a buffoon. Dawn Perlmutter is a buffoon. If the FBI actually used her in anything, then whoever made that decision is also a buffoon. You should not be using charlatans.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In any case, his McClelland's cross was so good. I remember Baldwin himself told McClelland that was a good cross.

[Anya Cain]

Nice cross, man. Yeah, I mean, I just, I cannot under, like, Pearl Mudder is not a conversation that any serious person should be having. Anyone. You can think he's innocent, you can whatever be a Richard Allen truther all day long. You should not be defending Perl Mutter. That's. That's just. That's preposterous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would hope if in some alternate universe where the Odinism stuff came into the trial, I would imagine the defense would have found some other witness also.

[Anya Cain]

Like, here's the thing. Perlmutter, like, is, you know, up there being like. Well, there's like. There's blood markings on the tree that's like drawn like a rune.

[Grainger Announcer 2]

We.

[Anya Cain]

We had. There was a. There was a prosecution witness who was excellent. Major Pat Cicero. He talked about how, like, he did a whole analysis on the blood and how it was not drawn, that it was actually an imprint of Libby's hand covered in her own blood as she tried to stem the bleeding and then tried to brace herself against a tree. The defense had any. Every opportunity to call someone who could be a crime scene expert to say, no, it was drawn. And here's why. We know that they actually in. In their payments to people they retained a blood expert, a blood spatter expert, a crime scene analysis expert. They did not call her. I wonder why. Is it because that. What she had to say completely blows apart their stupid theory? I. I don't know. All I know is obviously they didn't call her. What does that say? You know? And the best they could do was Pearl Mudder at this three day hearing. I mean, it's laughable, but yeah. When I saw Pearl Mudder, I just was like, come on, we don't need to do this again. This person did not. Was not. This was not a serious witness. This was not a thing that needs to be relitigated. They talk about, quote, perlmutter holds federal subject matter expert designation from the United States government in ritualistic crime and is consulted with the FBI, DEA and Department of Homeland Security. I want to know what cases. Tell us what cases. What cases? I want to know what cases? And I want to know, like, how that went. She directs the Symbol Intelligence Group. Again, that's something she made up. Is an adjunct in the forensic medicine program at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine. Medicine. Wow. And has authored textbooks on ritualistic homicide. None of. None of this stuff impresses me. Quote, she has worked on dozens of ritual homicide cases and hundreds of ritualistic crimes, primarily for prosecution. Again, those prosecutors should be ashamed of themselves. And I want to know what cases those are because I would be concerned about the outcome. I don't feel like I'm very much given to innocence fraud, but, like, I would want to analyze those cases. And, like, was there other evidence? Or did you just have someone who said, I'm in the symbol group and, like, you know, throw a bunch of satanic panic garbage at these people? That's what this is. It's satanic panic, too. Time is a flat circle. Yeah. Name the cases. I want to know the cases. And the appeal to authority is just not very effective because, listen, the FBI and the DEA and all these different federal agencies, they have credibility, but they're not above making mistakes, as we've seen time and time again in different cases. Correct?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Saying, well, the FBI used her, so she must be good. Is. Is completely facetious and just ridiculous.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I wanted to read something here. Quote, the ritual killing theory was not Alan's invention. It was law enforcement's own theory, developed from the first day at the scene, pursued for years and supported by multiple independent sources. The foundation for Perlmutter's testimony is not a defense attorney's theory. It is five years of law enforcement investigation, FBI consultation, and academic analysis all pointing in the same direction. What changed was not the evidence. What changed was the arrest. When Allen was charged, the state abandoned the theory, reversed his position on the sketches, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So this is nonsense. This is nonsense. First of all, yeah, it is true that the state investigated the Odinism theory. They investigated it and found there was nothing to it and moved on. This is dishonestly trying to make it sound like all of the evidence pointed in that direction. And it was not abandoned by investigators until Richard Allen was arrested. I don't think the investigators on this case took the Odinism theory seriously years before the Allen arrest. I don't know when. What do you think they're acting like

[Anya Cain]

it was like all. All steam ahead on friggin Odinism until the arrest. And that's just nonsense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What they were working on. Just before the Allen lead came out,

[Anya Cain]

Kegan Klein Klein, like we were there. We know. You know, like, I, I, I don't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is dishonest.

[Anya Cain]

It's just dishonest. They're just lying. I'm sorry. Like, I'm trying to like freaking, you know, I'm trying to be like respectful here. But I just, this is just nonsense. And like, not only that, but all this. Oh, oh, the academics, they're making it sound like there was this like council of like super friends where like law enforcement and the academic community and the FBI are all gathered around a table like Odinism. Of course it's Odinism. Yes, that's nonsense. Okay. Turco. Jeff Turco, the Purdue professor of, of infamy in this case that has been litigated. That man was asked, hey, play pretend for a minute and pretend like it's Odinism. And he's like, yeah, they're not, they don't shape runes. But maybe someone didn't know how to do runes and maybe it's that. That's nothing. He's not saying it's runes. He's doing a friggin thought exercise. The FBI. I like how they like tastefully say the FBI didn't rule it out. Of course they're not going to rule it out. It's an unsolved case. They're not going to rule anything or anyone out. They're going to go where the evidence was. Guess where the evidence went. Richard Allen. I'm just, I'm just like sick of this nonsense. Also, the defense bet on the wrong fricking horse. There were other third party suspects. Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And when you say that, I would have made clear we both believe Richard Allen committed this crime.

[Anya Cain]

Definitely guilty.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But when we say there are other third party suspects, I think there are other third party suspects that are more plausible than Odinism. I think those other third party suspects are innocent of this murder.

[Anya Cain]

I agree. I, I completely agree. What I'm saying is that there are other third party suspects that don't see your defense team and then by dent, your appellate team trying to relitigate satanic panic. 2 Thor remix okay, like where you're, where you're just basically doing like this kind of conspiracy theory mass hysteria that's just completely intellectually dishonest and ridiculous and frankly like just a bad look for everybody involved. And like, you don't look like a complete fool. Okay, like that. Like what I'm saying is there are third party suspects that don't require you to do that. And you know, but frankly, they're probably a little bit less Sexy in terms of the media, in terms of getting like cult into the headlines. So I think that's why they did not opt for that for the wrong reasons, frankly. I still think you would have been convicted. But again, what I'm. What I'm suggesting is that all the loss could have been a loss with dignity as opposed to like whatever the heck this was. And I also think you would have had an easier time had they bothered to focus on anyone else maybe trying to get them into trial. I'm not saying that would have crossed that threshold at all. I'm just saying it would have been. Come closer. What we saw at the three day hearing with Odinism was not a close. It was not a close call. It was not a photo finish. They did not come close to linking any of this. Yeah, this is. Ugh. God. They. They claim sticks were deliberately arranged on both girls bodies in configurations that covered no more than 3% of their surfaces. Far too. To conceal anything serving no practical purpose a brutal opportunistic murder would require. This is bullshit. Okay, I'm just gonna curse. I'm. I'm. We're two episodes in. I'm done. Okay, When. When you look at where the sticks were and what they were concealing. Richard Allen had just admitted to seeing Brad Weber's van go by. He's aware that there are. There is a road now on the other side of the creek. He's trying to conceal the bodies from the other side of the creek. He's not concerned with people coming down from the, you know, the bluffs or anything. He's concerned with the other side of the creek. That's what he's doing. He's also buzzed or drunk. Okay, we're reading way too much into this. But them asserting without anything that. Oh, no, like it must have been this, because that's not a. That's not a fact. That's their own spin on this. Go ahead, take over. Before I just buy bringing Perlmutter back in frigging April of 2026. Why? Just the stupidest stuff imaginable. You know, people like this just turn this into a circus. You know,

[Kevin Greenlee]

quote, the trial court denied Allen his right to show the state's investigation into British guy's identity was incomplete. Overlooked plausible leads and mishandled evidence. The state claims Allen failed to establish a nexus between the third party evidence and the crime. The record refutes that claim. Nexus to the victim. Abby was secretly meeting with Logan, the son of Brad Holder, the leader of the pagan group conducting rituals in Delphi. Every weekend.

[Anya Cain]

Jesus.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Holder had a rune tattoo that was nearly identical to the stick arrangement on Abby's body. Before these details were public, Holder was posting pictures depicting dead girls with sticks placed over their bodies. End quote.

[Anya Cain]

This is all endlessly relitigated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Endlessly relitigated. And it is a best, really, really misleading. These pictures supposedly showing dead girls with sticks.

[Anya Cain]

It was a tree. It wasn't a stick. They're clothed. I mean, like, I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was a joke picture.

[Anya Cain]

It was a joke picture of if a tree falls in the forest. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It doesn't match. It doesn't match.

[Anya Cain]

It doesn't match at all. And also, let, let's look at the. Okay. Oh, the leader of the pagan group. Very, very mysterious and threatening. You know, this guy had an alibi. His son had an alibi. Okay? No one should care. That's it. They're going to talk about that. They're going to have their own spin on the alibi thing. But I mean, if someone has an alibi, they have an alibi. You can think they're weird. You can think their religion's weird. You can. Whatever. Like, I mean, I don't think that's very nice to denigrate people's beliefs. I, I think Brad Holder's Facebook was creepy and weird. There's a lot of guys like that out there. They're not all murderers, okay? And I, I, I think the whole thing is ridiculous. I'm just so sick of it. I'm just so sick of like the same stuff just coming up and it's like we just freaking. It's like you just stuck, you know, you just, you're just stuck relitigating the same like, handful of stupid points over and over again. And that's all this case is. And it's just, it's just stupid. But we gotta do it because I, I feel like when we don't, then it, you know, it's like people just kind of go with whatever the latest rhetoric is, you know, I, I just think all this is just, I, I just don't like the intellectual dishonesty though. I just, maybe they're not being dishonest. Maybe they really buy this stuff. I don't know how any intelligent person could. Yeah, this says the, the, the state claims Allen failed to establish a nexus between third party evidence and the crime. The record refutes that claim across five independent connections. Um, yeah, just, I mean, they're okay because Abby Williams was met a. Like, like I think it was like once or twice with Logan Holder, who's the son of Brad Holder. Um, and then they. They say the bind rune again. An actual person who knows Norse. Turco looked at the pattern, the runes. He didn't think they were runes. So I don't know what they're talking about here. Like, if you throw a bunch of sticks on the ground, it might start resembling some letters or runes or whatever. Any kind of language. That doesn't mean they mean anything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, absolutely not.

[Anya Cain]

You know, and if an expert saying that's this doesn't spell anything, that's a lot more compelling to me than, you know, lawyers, you know, messing around with, you know, fiddlesticks all day. Westfall told law enforcement he knew the woods near the murder scene very well. Ooh, wow. Okay. Well, you know, who actually hung out there a lot and like it photographed himself doing so and like, has been on the bridge multiple times. Oh, Richard Allen, your client.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Weird.

[Anya Cain]

Weird. They talk about how Holder owned a.40 caliber Smith and Wesson. Same caliber as the cartridge found between the bodies.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, and again, I think I referred to this before where they say, oh, there's the mountain of evidence against Richard Allen. Doesn't count. But they were grab at crumbs. If someone said, oh, Richard Allen had a gun of the same caliber as the murder weapon, they would say, well, that doesn't mean anything. Lots of guys have guns like this, but when they want to point to someone else, every little crumb becomes damning evidence and it's just not the case. They're doing their job, but we can look at it.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, they're doing their job, but I don't mind dunking on this stuff because it's illogical. I mean, you know, I. I understand that they're gonna do what they're gonna do and whatever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I don't know Brad Holder, but I do know this. He did not kill those girls.

[Anya Cain]

No, no, these guys client did. You know, I mean, and wasn't. Didn't Melissa Oberg, the firearm forensics examiner testify to like early on that it was looking like it would be more like a six hour?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I mean, so, yeah, they said, quote, the Carroll county sheriff connected the sticks to pagan rituals immediately. Multiple officers concluded the scene was too complex for one person. The FBI BAU declined to exclude ritual killing. Declined to exclude. Wow, that's powerful stuff. A Purdue professor confirmed the stick markings were consistent with Norse runic symbolism. These are the state's own pre arrest conclusions. Again, we've already described I wrote underneath that. I wrote litany of BS. Then they bring up Holder's wife. In 2018, Holder allegedly told his wife that Patrick killed Abigail Williams, and that woman had no credibility as far as I'm concerned. I mean, was that your take?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That was my take, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Now, okay, now we get into their discussion of Brad Helder's alibi. One important thing you should remember is that Brad Elder had an alibi for the murder. You know, which is usually kind of a problem when it comes to, like, you know, accusing someone of being the actual killer. So this is how this appellate team describes it. Quote, cleared in this investigation did not mean investigators looked and found nothing. It meant they accepted an unverified badge swipe without watching the surveillance video. Never tested Holder's.40 caliber against the scene cartridge. Never examined Holder's phone. Allowed Westfall to delete his phone data before turning it over. Ignored Trooper Winter's recommendation that Holder be re interviewed after finding Holder's social media posts depicting young girls believed to be deceased with sticks placed over their bodies. It took six years to examine Westfall's alibi, only to find it could not be confirmed. I want to ask something. Are they saying, like, the kids in that picture or whatever, those women or girls or whatever, what have you in the picture on Brad Holder's Facebook are literally dead? And if that's the case, who the fuck are they?

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is the picture, which they claim is a crime scene reenactment of these women posing for this joke photo.

[Anya Cain]

I always thought they were just saying, like, they were, like, pretending to be dead or they're pretending to be unconscious. I. But, like, sometimes I think they're actually saying they're dead in this case. Who are they? Who are these victims that we don't know about? Like, what are we talking about here? And, and you're a murderer and you're gonna post that on Facebook? What's going. Oh, my God. I can't even. Okay, let's just move on before I fucking. I, I, I feel like I'm going crazy reasoning some of this stuff. Cause it's like, where is the standard of, like, let's try to get to the truth?

[Kevin Greenlee]

In fairness, that's not the appellate team's job here.

[Anya Cain]

I guess not. Apparently not. Like, good Lord. So, okay, they're talking about all this and, you know, the unverified badge swipe. I mean, let's look back to the, you know, the, the state's discussion of this. They, he talked about how Holder, quote, worked at a landfill in Buffalo Indiana. His work records confirmed he was at work on February 13 from 4:55am to 2:45pm and his gym record showed that he checked in there at 4:08pm on Feb. 13. The operations clerk for the landfill, the only person who could make changes to the electronic time records, confirmed that she had not changed Holder's record.

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[Anya Cain]

it would not be possible for him to be absent while his time card showed he was present. Only a small number of people worked each shift, and it would be immediately noticed if someone was absent or left early or if a stranger was there. The equipment ran continuously, and if one person ceased working, it would affect the entire operation. Specialized training was needed to operate the equipment, further precluding the possibility that Holder could have sent someone to take his place at work that day. Yeah. Okay, so now either the people at the Buffalo landfill are all lying, or this random clerk is lying, or he managed to train someone in his job and then have him replace him that day. Like, is that what they're saying? And then. And then also have him go to his normal gym. I mean, what they're saying is illogical. It's stupid, you know? Now, what's next? These episodes we try to. I always try to start like, okay, let's, you know, let's just do it. And then, like, it's just this litany of nonsense, and it's just. Why?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I. I feel we've covered the big things. Did you want to say anything about Tobin?

[Anya Cain]

I mean, I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I don't find that especially interesting. They talked about, oh, Richard Allen. They should have played these tapes of him in prison, where he was saying crazy things.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To show that he was crazy. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And the jury didn't find any of that compelling. Guys, like, they just didn't like, they. I mean, I don't. He was screaming, speaking incoherently, quoting scriptures, singing, making delirious statements about being King Michael, being psychogenically frozen and starting World War iii. Maybe he's just a loudmouth, annoying person who will do or say anything for attention. I mean, the. Now, if he, in that statement was also saying, I killed Abby and Libby and that's like the only time he's saying it, then yeah, I can understand the argument. Okay, maybe this psychotic. Maybe it should be disregarded. I understand that, but it's like it's not. I mean, those are separate things. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then I guess this is worth talking about is that there was a claim that Libby's phone, which again was under Abby's body, shows that someone plugged in headphones into the phone at 5:45pm and some evidence was offered that, well, this could also. This. This could be a fake reading or a false reading caused by moisture, which certainly seems more plausible. They write, quote, the phone showed no steps, not no movement. And a person can interact with a phone without logging one. The search began sometime after 5pm before the crime scene was located. Precisely when someone with access to the phone would want to silence incoming calls. End quote. So they are suggesting. They are suggesting that the killer stayed at the crime scene up to at least 5:45pm While a search was actively going on. And it occurs to him, well, golly, there's a chance someone might try to call this phone hidden under the body of this girl I just killed. I know what I'll do. I'll stay here and I'll plug in headphones.

[Anya Cain]

Makes sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think that's the least bit

[Anya Cain]

plausible, especially when you consider that we heard testimony from crime scene expert Major Cicero about how Abby was only moved very minimally. As in, like, her head may have turned post mortem based on the blood pattern. So what is she being, like, magically levitated? And they're moving around the phone or they're in there and they're not moving the phone, they're somehow getting the headphone jack into that. Like, how does that even work? The phone stopped moving at, like, what,

[Kevin Greenlee]

like, 2:32, something like that.

[Anya Cain]

And this guy's staying, sticking around as the search is ongoing. For, to put in like, the obvious explanation is that dirt and water did something to the headphone jacks. The other way makes no sense. And I feel like embarrassed for these people for even suggesting this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a stupid argument. I don't believe the killer stayed on the seat for hours even after the search actively started. And he's hearing people nearby calling out the names of these girls. He's still staying there. And then it occurs to him, oh, someone might try calling this phone. I know what I'll do. I'll plug in headphones also.

[Anya Cain]

Wouldn't you just take the frickin phone if you were worried about like, oh, maybe they took a picture of me or something? Like, why would you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, some of the, some of the damning evidence against him was contained on that phone. Hidden.

[Anya Cain]

Like if you're aware of the phone, take the phone and turn it off or something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And destroy the phone. Yeah. So it, it's. Why stay there? Why plug in headphones?

[Anya Cain]

It's sort of, it's like, it's like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he's plugging in headphones without moving the body or moving the phone.

[Anya Cain]

You read a novel and it's like the, you can tell the author needs the characters to do like stupid stuff in order to make the plot go forward. And that's, I think, what we're seeing here. On some level, they're writing a murder mystery that makes no sense because they need to, you know, have their guy be acquitted. And you know, it's much simpler that he just did this. And you know, something that commonly happens to cell phones happened to Libby's cell phone, which was covered in dirt and moisture.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Anything else you want to say about this brief?

[Anya Cain]

Let's see. They denied the reversible error by denying Allen's motion to correct errors. This was about Weber testifying he clocked out at 2:02pm, drove 20 to 25 minutes home, and they said this testimony was false. I guess they're, I get, I guess that they're basing that on a video where there's no actual universal time stamp on it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So, you know, again, they're very certain about this in one direction, which again, I guess I get is their job to a certain extent. But it's like I'd just don't buy this kind of over the top. I don't know. They talk about how, oh, they said that the, they said, the state says it was an unreliable video, but it also was the FBI subject information sheet. First of all, the jury heard that and, and second of all, like the FBI doesn't even record its interviews. Like I, the person who was with the FBI agent who took that testified. He. I mean, like, there's no. There's no reason to believe that over Weber. When Weber seemed to be consistent in all other interviews saying the same thing. I just. I mean, what's more likely? We also have him documented as checking out at 202. It seems very likely that he went right home. And. Yeah, I'm. I'm looking. They said they. They abandoned the obvious theory that more than one person did it. End quote. I just want to say this. Like, I feel like people who make that argument don't actually, like, look at a lot of murders. There are many, many cases of one person doing a lot of strange scenes, things at a scene, and murdering multiple people at once. Even more than two. It's not uncommon. It's like people think their own ignorance means something, and it doesn't. You know, the ogre shop murders have one guy overpowering four girls and doing all sorts of horrible and bizarre things at the scene. Okay. It's. It doesn't. Like, people just don't read enough. They don't, like, know enough crime, and then they think that that means something, or they. They make a conclusion based on their own ignorance. And I'm just begging, if you hear someone say that, you know, it's not. It's not true. There are. There are many cases where it's one perpetrator. And the reason why it's. We. It strikes us as odd is that we're not the type of people who would murder people. So we're not. We're think we're. Oh, wow, that's a lot. You're doing a lot. That's wild. I. I wouldn't have the nerve to do that. I would never want to do that, or I would never hurt other people. It's like, you're not in the mindset of someone like Richard Allen, where you. He's a person who's fantasized about overpowering and raping and hurting women and girls all his life. You know, you're not in that mindset. So I don't know. And ultimately, it doesn't matter what, like, you. What the vibe is at the scene. It matters what the evidence Sundays. They say five days after the murders, Allen gave law enforcement the unique identifying numbers for the phone they now claim he was trying to hide, end quote. He was trying to hide it because it's like, the only phone of his that they can't find. What are they talking about? Oh, he tried to hide it. Where is it then? Let's have a look at it. Where is It. Why is that the one phone out of his whole collection of phones, all of which he held on to? Why is that the one phone that is gone? Like, don't bring that up. You know, just. It looks ridiculous. Yeah, I don't know. This is a. They said quote. The jury never got to hear Allen's tangential, pressured and delusional speech to show his confessions were not reliable. Despite a parade of Stays witnesses claiming he was lucid or faking, the jury was misled to believe Alan knew a fact only the killer would know by presenting false evidence that Weber came home at a time that absolutely fell into place with the state theory of when Allen would have crossed the water with the girls. End quote. Again, this is just nonsense. And I read you. I read you. What I felt was the half truth masquerading as a whole truth becomes a complete untruth. I feel like that's just this document. Like they. I feel like this, this. The weird thing about this case is people feel like if they just say something, it just makes it true. And you can say things as much as you want, but to me, that just makes you look like a liar. If it's not true, I mean, what's next? What happens after this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, as we mentioned the top of our previous episode, they also filed a motion for oral argument. So the court will decide whether or not it feels that an oral argument is merited in this case. And then we'll either have an oral argument or we won't, and then there'll be some sort of decision. My best guess, my belief is that Richard Allen is going to lose this and then his team will file post conviction relief.

[Anya Cain]

So what? So post conviction relief would be like an opportunity to say ineffective counsel, stuff like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Just another stage of the process.

[Anya Cain]

So it's not like it would be over.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, the whole. It can be frustrating to see these cases go on and on, but it is important to remember that it is important that we protect everybody's rights.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I know there's been some speculation about post conviction relief and what that would look like. I've seen people claim that Michael Osbrook would be the person to do that. I don't see any evidence for that. You know, frankly, the. The Delphi Richard Allen truthers, surprisingly, given all of their really lovely personalities, they. They sort of periodically form circular firing squads and, and war with one another, which is kind of always funny to watch. And like, things have been said where Michael Osbrook was one of the attorneys who represented Richard Allen's own attorneys. He was also part of the Delphi defense brain trust, where they were, you know, kind of a link between the defense team and, and a bunch of online cranks. And. Yeah, I mean, he, some people say he's going to do it or he's making noises as if it's going to be him. We've also heard that Kathy Allen does not like him and does not want anything to do with him. I don't know what's accurate. I don't know whether he would be taking on post conviction relief or someone else would be. If I were Alan, I would not want the guy to do it, to be someone who represented the attorneys in the case ever. Even if there's like waivers you can file about that. I would say, like, I would just want a clean slate, you know, just because it's like, I don't know, that just feels kind of wishy washy. Michael Osberg is also the same guy who once went, this is, this just shows you the caliber of discussion on the other side. You know, if people don't like us, they don't like us, whatever. You don't agree with our opinions, they think we're biased. Fine. Okay, that's your, that's your opinion. You're, you're entitled to that. But they just, they're so freaking weird about it. This dude literally got on Twitter and somebody was talking about how we share a waterbed with Nicholas McLeland and Jerry Holman, which is again, weird and sexual. Why are you being weird and sexual? And he got out there and said what was. Well, this was, this was all the way back in, I think, December of 2025. So it wasn't that long ago he said, quote, well, maybe sometime even sometime soon, they'll find out their shared waterbed has metamorphosed into a water board, end quote. Why are you, why are the, why are these people fantasizing sexually about us? And also why are they. Then why is Osbrook then bringing that into, like, discussions of torture? They're creepy and off putting. These are the people who are the Richard Allen truthers. These are the people who are running around and making it their whole personality to support a guy who was a sexual deviant, whose sexual deviancy prompted him to murder two innocent girls.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, and I, I generally find it interesting that there is a class, for lack of a better word, of people online on the Internet who seem to relish fantasizing about great harm coming to those they disagree with. So fantasizing about waterboarding us, for instance, that just Seems creepy as hell. It seems odd.

[Anya Cain]

It's really, I mean, it's odd, but it's also like, listen, I don't like Michael Osbrook. I don't want him to be waterboarded. I don't want any physical harm to befall to anyone. I'd love for some of them to shut up and go away and move on with their lives, but again, it's, I mean, like, I'm not sitting around thinking about torturing people. There's just something so creepy about that. Especially when we're talking about all of these people, like bring sex into it constantly. By the way, that's not like abnormal, that's like completely par for the course, which is also incredibly creepy and off putting. But when we're talking about a crime that is under, underneath it all, it is a sexually motivated crime of two little girls. And all these people are talking about sex and imagining sexual scenarios and, and then talking about torture, there's just something really off putting. I don't know if it's a situation where they know they're being creepy and they think it's funny or they don't realize how they're coming across, but either way, I just think it's unacceptable. I don't think it's something that belongs in any sort of serious person's discussion of a case. And I, I, it, honestly, it just, it, it just creeps me out. I just find it very, I don't. This is a guy who also was, Remember he was like posting all those gifs of like bound and gagged women when he was talking about the. It's like somebody's got it. Somebody's got to tell grandpa that like some of this stuff is just, it's, it's not cute in 2026. It's just deeply creepy. But I don't know. I mean, again, par for the course. That's, that's probably some of the more elevated discussion they have in the, in that community. But, but anyways, yeah, we'll be looking out for that and certainly interested to see what the, you know, what the judges do on this one and what happens. As we said, no one really knows what's going to happen. I didn't find any of this particularly compelling, but judges might, I don't know. I'm not a judge. Nor is Kevin. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What? I'm not a judge.

[Anya Cain]

No, I'm sorry. I know you have a gavel over there. Doesn't confer you any power. I mean, what, what do you think though? I mean, if you had to summarize all of this, the back and forth and just this appeal as. As far as you see it so far, I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not surprising. I think it's pretty weak tea. I don't expect this to go anywhere. And I mean, no spoilers. I fully expect Richard Allen to die in prison and never experience another breath of air as a free man.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that's appropriate after what he did?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. After what he did to those kids. Died in fear and went through hell before they died. So I'm. I hope he, you know, never gets out. I think he's an evil, evil person. And I think a lot of people have done a lot of evil things in service of a very evil man. And I think all those people should be deeply ashamed of themselves. I get annoyed when I read stuff like this because, I mean, even though I do see this as a significant improvement over the defense trial work, I really do feel like a lot of it's just lies and dishonesty. And I don't really understand why professional people would feel the need to kind of, like, bend the truce to the point where it breaks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It sounds to me, Anya, like you're lighting a fire called truth.

[Anya Cain]

I'm burning down the paper tiger, baby. Tiger, tiger, burning bright. Yeah, I guess I just. My tolerance for this stuff has really decreased, and I apologize if that makes me more ornery. I kind of. I feel at this point, I just. I don't know what else to be because I just see the same thing again and again, and I keep expecting something different or something a little bit more refined. And it's like, I'm not getting it. I'm just getting the paper tigers. Get them away from me or it will set them on fire.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we're done.

[Anya Cain]

I think we're very much done.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with

[Anya Cain]

other listeners about a case we've covered. You can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.