The Delphi Murders: The Sentencing of Richard Allen

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Delphi Murders: The Sentencing of Richard Allen"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Murder Sheet
• Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)
• Description: A weekly true crime podcast that approaches cases with journalistic integrity, covering both high-profile and obscure murders, cold cases, legal analyses, and interviews with experts and authors.
• Episode: The Delphi Murders: The Sentencing of Richard Allen
• Release Date: December 20, 2024

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1. Introduction and Background

The episode opens with Áine Kane and Kevin Greenlee introducing the significance of the day—December 20, 2024—the sentencing of Richard Allen for the Delphi murders. They note the journey from the trial and guilty verdict to the final sentencing by Judge Francis Gull.

Key Quote:

• Áine Kane [01:41]: "Today was the day that the judge, Judge Francis Gull, was going to sit down and sentence convicted murderer Richard Allen."

2. Sentencing Hearing Overview

a. Format of Sentencing Hearing

Kevin Greenlee explains the standard structure of a sentencing hearing, where both prosecution and defense may present arguments for a harsher or more lenient sentence. Notably, in this case, the defense chose minimal participation.

Key Quote:

• Kevin Greenlee [03:50]: "Our clients should get a more lenient sentence... and expect the prosecution team... to make a case for the sentence to be stronger."

b. Appearance of Richard Allen

Áine provides a descriptive account of Richard Allen's appearance during sentencing. From his courtroom attire to his demeanor in prison garb, she paints a vivid picture of his physical state and emotional expression.

Key Quote:

• Áine Kane [07:37]: "The expression that I almost kind of wrote down... was almost sheepish."

c. Behavior and Family Absence

Both hosts discuss the notable absence of Richard Allen's family members during sentencing, attributing it to possible instructions from the defense. Áine emphasizes the importance of not speculating on their absence.

Key Quote:

• Áine Kane [09:44]: "They didn't want to see this. A sentencing hearing, as you can imagine, includes victim impact statements..."

3. Prosecution's Presentation

a. Testimony of Lt. Jerry Holman

Lieutenant Jerry Holman, the lead investigator, testified about the brutality of the murders and the impact of Allen's actions on the community and law enforcement. He also addressed the unethical defense strategies that falsely accused the prosecution of corruption.

Key Quotes:

• Lt. Jerry Holman [17:11]: "Richard Allen lay in wait for these girls. He stalked them, he humiliated them..."
• Kevin Greenlee [20:00]: "I don't think it is ethical to be falsely accusing good people... because they had all these charges... they were lies."

b. Impact of Defense Strategies

Áine and Kevin critically analyze the defense team's approach, highlighting how their unethical accusations led to harassment of law enforcement and distorted public perception.

Key Quote:

• Áine Kane [25:22]: "It's nuts. There's no filter for this defense team. There's no... let's get the quality information and keep out the bad information."

4. Victim Impact Statements

Multiple family members of the victims delivered heartfelt and devastating statements, illustrating the profound loss and ongoing trauma caused by Richard Allen's actions.

a. Carrie Timmons (Mother of Liberty German)

Carrie expressed her unimaginable grief, emphasizing how Richard Allen's actions permanently altered her family’s future.

Key Quotes:

• Carrie Timmons [28:18]: "I don't know how to begin to process the fact that a man... married... has a child... is capable of the violence..."
• Carrie Timmons [30:59]: "Until she and Libby meet again, Libby will always be my sunshine."

b. Josh Lank (Libby's Cousin)

Josh, a race car driver, conveyed his deep anger and loss, foreseeing a bleak future for Allen if placed in the general prison population.

Key Quotes:

• Josh Lank [33:23]: "Libby was one of a kind... it's time for Richard Allen's life to be a living hell."
• Josh Lank [34:19]: "He might be a dead man walking."

c. Diane and Aaron Erskine (Abby's Grandparents)

Diane shared her lifelong grief, haunted by graphic crime scene and autopsy photos, while Aaron likened the loss to an irreparable limb being severed.

Key Quotes:

• Diane Erskine [35:45]: "I live every day with the burden of the decision on that day to allow the girls to go to the trails."
• Aaron Erskine [40:12]: "It's kind of like losing a limb that will never come back."

d. Becky and Mike Patty (Grandparents of Liberty German)

Becky condemned the defense team's handling of evidence, directly blaming them for additional trauma, including the leak of crime scene photos.

Key Quotes:

• Becky Patty [45:23]: "Richard Allen is an adult. He should be held accountable."
• Mike Patty [53:58]: "I wish I could have protected everyone from having to go through this."

5. Prosecutor's Remarks

Nick McCleland articulated the profound impact of Allen's crimes on the victims' families and the community. He emphasized Allen's lack of remorse and justified the request for the maximum sentence of 130 years.

Key Quotes:

• Nick McCleland [59:55]: "He believes that Richard Allen would kill again."
• Nick McCleland [60:18]: "Actions always speak louder than words."

6. Defense Attorney's Response

Defense attorney Brad Rosie had a limited participation, requesting that the judge focus solely on Allen's actions without considering the family's criticisms of the defense team. The hosts critique this move as largely ineffectual and unprofessional.

Key Quote:

• Brad Rosie [61:58]: "Please, just make your sentencing decision based on Richard Allen and his own acts."

7. Judge Francis Gull's Sentencing Decision

Judge Gull dismissed two of the four murder charges to avoid double jeopardy, proceeding with sentencing on counts three and four. She declined to consider mitigating factors presented by the defense, deeming them irrelevant to the severity of Allen's crimes.

Key Quotes:

• Judge Francis Gull: [During sentencing] "I will not consider the fact that he served in the military... depression and anxiety are not directly connected to his actions."

Finally, she sentenced Richard Allen to the maximum of 65 years for each count, totaling 130 years, aligning with the prosecution's recommendation.

Key Outcome:

• Sentence: 65 years on each count for a total of 130 years.

8. Post-Sentencing Press Conference

a. Speeches by Mike Patty

Mike expressed relief and gratitude towards the jurors, law enforcement, and the community for their unwavering support throughout the eight-year ordeal.

Key Quote:

• Mike Patty [76:11]: "If I make it to the age of 80, it will be that 10% of my life has been spent on this."

b. Remarks by Tony Liggett

Superintendent Doug Carter spoke passionately about the integrity of the investigative team, condemning the defense's unethical tactics and emphasizing the collaborative effort that led to justice.

Key Quotes:

• Tony Liggett [77:13]: "Today's day is turning the page and starting a new chapter."
• Tony Liggett [83:24]: "Any notion of a cover-up is just not correct."

c. Statement by Prosecutor Nick McCleland

McCleland reiterated the relentless efforts of law enforcement despite facing false accusations and defended the integrity of the investigation. He also addressed the ongoing issue of leaked crime scene photos.

Key Quote:

• Nick McCleland [91:25]: "We tried very, very hard... Unfortunately, some actions were beyond our control."

9. Conclusion and Future Plans

Áine and Kevin concluded the episode by reflecting on the emotional toll of the case and announced their plans to conduct interviews now that the gag order has been lifted. They revealed their intention to interview key individuals involved, particularly Lieutenant Jerry Holman, to provide deeper insights into the case.

Key Announcement:

• Áine Kane [98:54]: "Our first interview is going to be with Lieutenant Jerry Holman."

Closing Remarks:

• The hosts expressed gratitude to their audience and emphasized their commitment to ongoing coverage of both this case’s appeals and other true crime stories.

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Notable Quotes:

• Áine Kane [32:35]: "The pain from all of these people... is real human impact."
• Kevin Greenlee [20:51]: "These defense strategies have resulted in harassment and libeling of people who didn't deserve it."
• Áine Kane [99:17]: "Anybody acting like a fanboy over a child killer needs to seek professional help."

Timestamp Highlights:

• 01:41: Introduction to the sentencing day.
• 17:11: Lt. Jerry Holman's testimony on the brutality of the murders.
• 25:22: Lt. Holman's observations on Richard Allen's lack of remorse.
• 28:18 – 31:11: Carrie Timmons’ victim impact statement.
• 33:23 – 35:18: Josh Lank’s statements expressing anger and foresight of Allen’s potential danger.
• 35:45 – 37:55: Diane Erskine’s harrowing account of grief and trauma.
• 39:38 – 43:17: Aaron Erskine’s metaphor of losing a limb and traumatic impacts.
• 44:21 – 51:30: Becky and Mike Patty’s emotional testimonies condemning the defense team.
• 53:17 – 73:00: Superintendent Doug Carter and Prosecutor McCleland’s commendations and criticisms during the press conference.

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Final Thoughts:

The sentencing of Richard Allen marks a significant closure in the Delphi murders case, bringing prolonged agony to the victims' families and the community. The episode meticulously covers the emotional testimonies, legal arguments, and the overarching impact of the case, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the events leading to Allen's lengthy incarceration.

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For More Information:

• Report Tips or Unsolved Crimes: [e-mail]
• Support the Podcast: www.patreon.com/murdersheet | www.buymeacoffee.com/murdersheet
• Follow Discussions: Murder Sheet Facebook Group

Transcript

[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Kane]

So today is Friday, December 20, 2024. It's been a long time coming. Today was the sentencing of Richard Allen in the Delphi murders case. So we had our trial, we had a verdict, a guilty verdict. And today was the day that the judge, Judge Francis Gull, was going to sit down and sentence convicted murderer Richard Allen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're going to tell you what happened. We're also going to talk some about the press conference that followed. I don't think we need to go into quite as much detail about that because my understanding, I haven't checked, but my understanding is it was streamed online. There was only a lot of cameras there. So imagine that's widely available. We're still talk about it, just not an extra.

[Anya Kane]

We'll talk about our impressions, but like we don't need to go into like you know, minutia and quotes to the same extent as as with the court, where things are not broadcast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right?

[Anya Kane]

But yeah, well, and then we'll announce some kind of exciting News coming, exciting news.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let's get to it.

[Anya Kane]

Let's do it. My name is Anya Kane. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. Hi. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Kane]

And this is the Delphi murders. The sentencing of Richard Allen. It.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should we talk by discussing a little bit what a sentencing hearing format is like?

[Anya Kane]

Sure, we can talk by discussing that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So basically, both sides get an opportunity, if they choose to make their case, in which essentially you would expect the defense team who've lost to make a case. Our clients should get a more lenient sentence. You'd expect the prosecution team, who have won and convicted the defendant to make a case for the sentence to be stronger. And in this particular case, the defense teams had previously indicated that they were not interested in really participating in the process. And so they did very, very, very, very little in this hearing.

[Anya Kane]

And, like, the whole thing was, what, an hour and a half? Something like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Something like that. If even that.

[Anya Kane]

If even that. Let me just give you a sense. We had some wonderful line sitters. Help us out today. I'd like to shout them out in the. In the evening. Kay helped us. Thank you so much. K. I think she's like four time, five time linesitter at this point. She's. She's the veteran line sitter and we really appreciate her. And then also the wonderful Susan and Stacy, just amazing people who helped us out. Susan and Stacey, we asked to come in the afternoon to, you know, help us out if there was a lunch break. And there was no lunch. There was no lunch break. So apologies to them, but thank you so much for helping us anyway. It really gave us a lot of peace of mind and we really, really greatly appreciated it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think K may have waited in long. Longer than we have.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I think Kay's been in there. And then just, you know, thank you to Kay, Susan, Stacy, and everyone throughout this process. Everyone who sat for us, everyone who volunteered and maybe it didn't work out. Just thank you so much. Like, it makes my heart. I don't know, I just feel humbled and honored that people wanted to help us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And thank you all so much.

[Anya Kane]

Thank you. I mean, this from the bottom of my heart, but. So that's just giving you a sense of how short this was. There was no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because the defense didn't participate, that doesn't mean that Richard Allen didn't get Chances to speak. And in fact, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe today may been the first time throughout this case, including all the pre trial hearings, it may have been the very first time he spoke in court.

[Anya Kane]

I, I have vague recollections of him speaking in court before. I don't quite recall what those were, but I don't believe this was necessarily the first time he's ever talked. Okay, but it was certainly, perhaps the, I mean you could be right, I could be just hallucinating that. But also I, I, it's definitely the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Most we've heard from him and it really wasn't a lot. He gave his name, Richard Allen. He was also asked by Judge Gull if he was satisfied with his attorneys and he said yes, he was. And he also indicated that he had seen his pre sentence investigative report and he was asked if he had noticed any errors in it. And first he, and then his attorneys did notice a couple of relatively minor errors. For instance, the report apparently indicated that he had been arrested, I think two days after he actually had been arrested. And you think, well that's just a minor thing, but if you're a defendant facing a prison term, you start getting credit for your prison term as soon as you're arrested. So he wants it to be known when he was arrested, I was in custody on this day. I should get credit for being in custody on this day.

[Anya Kane]

Just to give some scene setting on Richard Allen himself because I know people often ask us how did he look, how was he dressed, what was the demeanor? So today he, we saw him in his little pastel ensembles during the trial. That's what he was wearing, sort of button down shirts and slacks and things like that. But now of course he's incarcerated, there's no jury. So he came in in orange sort of jail slash prison bottoms and kind of a gray smockish shirt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He wore an orange smockish shirt, but the gray thing was over it.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I mean like it was like an orange jumpsuit and then some sort of gray situation and then kind of a leather, I couldn't tell if it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Was like a sweater or a sweatshirt.

[Anya Kane]

Or just a, I'm not familiar and maybe, maybe someone who works in corrections can kind of give us some insight into this. But he also had a sort of a leather band across his waist that he seemed to be handcuffed, is wrists were cuffed to. So I don't know if it was maybe some sort of safety garment or what was going on there or just something to keep him Warm. It was very cold out today and it was snowing throughout parts of the morning. So that's something to note in terms of his demeanor. He also had his, his reading glasses on his head as usual. So those came back in. I almost. The expression that I almost kind of wrote down, that I wrote down in my notes as he came in was almost sheepish. I don't know. I mean, that, that may not have been how he was feeling. I'm someone on the outside looking at somebody else. I, I'm not always gonna be able to tell their exact emotions. I'm just. That was the expression that came to mind for me. And he was looking around, looking around the audience. And of course, there were some people notably not there today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, no member of his family was present today. And our understanding is that this was at the request of the defense team. It wasn't like they suddenly decided, we're not going to support Richard Allen anymore. That they were told not to come there. Maybe Richard Allen told them not to come there, but it was some form of an instruction or a request. Is that correct to say?

[Anya Kane]

That's my understanding. And this is a situation we need to emphasize that we should not read into that. We should not say, oh, as you said, they changed their mind. No, this was. They didn't want to see this. A sentencing hearing, as you can imagine, includes victim impact statements. And that is basically people talking about how wronged they were by the convicted murderer in this situation. And that if, if you know that, that wouldn't be pleasant hearing if for. For a Richard Allen supporter. Tis the season for gift giving. So support our wonderful new sponsor, Quince, and get yourself some affordable, high quality gifts. Quince is a company that specializes in making the finer things in life. Cashmere gold Italian handbags. Affordable on any budget.

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[Anya Kane]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

[e-mail] podcast yeah, it's basically victims, relatives or people close to the victims standing up in front of the court and saying in detail how hurt and devastated they have been by the heinous acts of the convicted killer. And so if you are a family member of the convicted killer, you can imagine that might not be something you'd feel comfortable witnessing and being a part of.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, and this isn't the first time we've seen this behavior from Allen's family members. We know that his wife Kathy Allen and his mother Janice Allen during the three day hearing over the summer when Major Pat Cicero testified for the state about the really gruesome and horrible crime scene and how these girls, how Liberty German and Abigail Williams died, how they were murdered by Richard Allen. We know that they also basically fled the courtroom at that time as well. So there's, there's certain moments where maybe the, the discomfort becomes something where they do not want to be there. They remove themselves. So I just don't think people, I hope people are not like reading into their lack of presence here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Also on the subject, probably not worth mentioning them by name. You probably all know who they are. There's a number of rabidly pro defense YouTubers who covered the trial. They made the decision not to be here today.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, well, I Mean, I guess if you spend like a month misleading your audience and then get it completely wrong, I mean, you know, you can come back and put more egg on your face, or you can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I imagine it would be difficult for them to sit here and be confronted with the evidence of what Richard Allen did.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And also the human impact. It's not just a fun little game where we're all, like, picking different sides of a tennis match. You know, two girls were murdered. It's not a game. People's lives were changed forever for the worse, and it had a real human impact. I think some people just. They don't really either care about that or, you know, they don't want to have to care about it, so they just don't want to hear about it. So they just avoid that stuff because maybe if they heard, you know, Abby's grandmother or Libby's grandmother on the stand, you know, their voice shaking, talking about how awful this has been for them, maybe they'd have to, like, look in the mirror and reflect about what they're doing and how they're basically, you know, I don't care. If someone wants to come in and say, well, I tend to, you know, be a more on the defense side, that's fine. But, like, we're talking about people who are just out of reality, like, just lying, just putting out misinformation. And maybe if you see the human impact and the people you're essentially sicking your online mob on and watch them cry on the stand, maybe you have to look in the mirror a little bit differently. Maybe you need to look at your life choices a little bit differently. Just. Sorry, I'm getting. Already. I'm already getting mad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anyways, so the prosecution, Nick McCleland, mentioned at the beginning of this that he would be offering one witness who would be Lt. Jerry Holman of the Indiana State Police, and then he would have six relatives come up to give unsworn victim impact statements. Why don't you start by talking about the first and only witness, Lieutenant Jerry Holman.

[Anya Kane]

And this is after Brad Rosie got up and said, basically, we're resting on our previous motion, so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. Which we covered in an earlier episode.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Defense is doing nothing. This is what the prosecution's doing. So Lieutenant Holman comes up to the stand and is sworn in. He was the only sworn statement. He's. He's more of a witness than a victim impact statement. So there's a difference. Victim impact statements don't need to be sworn. Holman gets up there, and McCleland essentially kind of guides him through, you know, a number of questions to kind of get into the impact. And I think what Holman was there for was he's there to represent law enforcement in a way, he was denoted as the lead investigator for the case. In reality, there was more of a kind of a team effort with unified command kind of working together. But he's the kind of person who was representing that within the trial. And he was there to kind of talk about what he observed, about how.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was heavily involved in the investigation. He talked about how the team he worked with poured their hearts and souls into the investigation. McCleland asked him at one point, have you closely examined the crime scene photos? And Holman said, unfortunately, yes. He talked about how this was a very brutal murder. He said Richard Allen lay in wait for these girls. He stalked them, he humiliated them, he treated them like animals. He made them strip. And that he actually killed one of the girls in front of the others. And he spoke with some emotion about. Just imagine the fear and anxiety that that left those girls in as all this was happening.

[Anya Kane]

We don't know which one saw their best friend die, but one of them saw their best friend brutally murdered, their throat slit. I mean, it's unfathomable. Holman mentioned that he has worked other, I guess, child murders before. He's worked other homicides, but this one stands out in his mind as particularly heinous and brutal, where you have a stranger essentially abducting these two girls and doing what he did to them and humiliating them. I mean, these are young, teenage, preteen girls forcing them to strip. I mean, it's just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He also talked about the impact on the community because of this heinous act. And then he went a bit further and started talking about another effect of this that he attributes to Richard Allen. He says that Richard Allen allowed his attorneys to use unethical strategies of falsely accusing the prosecutor and police of being corrupt or of withholding evidence. And I believe he at one point looked right at prosecuting McLean, is that you and your family have been harassed. And I believe most of the people who have been involved in this case, on that side of the fence have been harassed or have received threats or have had their family threatened. And Holman largely attributes this to these. The strategy the defense team chose to use, where they essentially publicly accused law enforcement of being part of some bizarre conspiracy and involved being corrupt, and all that stuff was not true.

[Anya Kane]

So I wonder, what do you think, as an attorney? Do you think that is unethical? I mean, I have my own thoughts on this that I want to share. But I'm curious, when, when you have a defense strategy that seems to revolve around that, what are your thoughts?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I, I, I don't think it is ethical to be falsely accusing good people of committing corrupt and criminal acts with no evidence because they had all these charges that they laid, pardon me, against the prosecution and they were lies. I mean, let's be blunt. They were lies and there's really no defense for that. And it really coarsened the rhetoric around this case. And the reason why so many people have gotten such a distorted image of this case is because of that there are people today who believe that there was corruption involved or conspiracy. And it's, it's, it makes no sense.

[Anya Kane]

It really doesn't. And, and this is a situation, I'm going to tell you my own perspective. I want defense attorneys to be aggressive, to be robust, and to be harsh on law enforcement. That's their job. Okay, it's their job. It's not their job to say, oh wow, great job. You know, gold sticker. It's their job to say, you didn't do this. Right? You didn't do that. Right? Here's where the problem was. So I, I, I respect that. That's an important part of the system. That being said, in this case, it went completely like so far afield of any actual reasonable criticisms of how the investigation was conducted or issues that came up and went just into the realm of like, weird fever dream. Wow. Wouldn't it be wild if like, you know, Carroll County Sheriff Tony Liggett and Jerry Holman were like, like, I felt we were a couple of filings away from them accusing law enforcement of being like literal Odinists. Like, like it was, it was that crazy. It felt weirdly personal when I don't think it needed to be. And I frankly think it cheapened the defense's message because, you know, it's like, I mean, I think we can all understand that law enforcement and prosecutors make mistakes. They're humans. But asking us to buy into the idea like, that there's this kind of whole, like, kind of alluded to shadowy conspiracy where all of these professionals are working together and like risking their own, like, livelihoods, freedom, honor, everything to, I don't know, like railroad this random CVS employee and protect a gang of Odin. Like what? Like, it's just stupid. And so yeah, I felt like they, they were unethical because I think they had to know that this is incredibly stupid. And they took it so far and they courted consistently. The lowest common denominator on social media, the cranks. And, you know, one thing about the cranks is, you know, they're not exactly sitting around having, you know, little dignified tea parties and discussing things in calm voices, you know, when they're told by their defense daddies, you know, to attack someone essentially directly or indirectly. And I think both were happening here, they're going to do that. So I think this did result in harassment and, you know, libeling of people who didn't deserve it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it's fair to say that I think virtually every member of law enforcement who has been publicly identified with this case has received some sort of Internet harassment. And to give you an idea of how bad some of this stuff has gotten, I can tell you for a fact that an investigator on the criminal defense team works closely and has a close relationship that we documented in our due process gang episodes with someone who has falsely accused Holman of trying to murder her.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, yeah, Matt Hoff. Right. And his buddy Angela Sadlowski. That's, you know, that's good. That's the kind of caliber of person that this defense team tried to deputize.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And the idea that Lt. Holman tried to murder a woman is ludicrous. And if it wasn't such a serious charge, it would be funny. And the fact that they work with people who make such charges and they take these people seriously, it's all, they're.

[Anya Kane]

Just, I mean, like, it's, let's just call what it is, it's nuts. You know, like, there's no, there's no filter for this defense team. There's no, like, let's get the quality information and keep out the bad information. It's just like, if you have something where you're basically saying, prosecution, bad, defense good, they will work with you extensively and buy everything you're selling. And it's, it's a point where it's like, is it naivete, or is it just some sort of lack of ethics and lack of care for the truth? And at a certain point, I have to say, like, these are all educated people, so it kind of feels like the latter, because I, I, I don't imagine how any trained professional could be that naive. Yeah, it's, it's embarrassing. So they're basically saying these people are, they're not just the, our opponents are not just wrong, they're evil. Anything that happens to them is fine. And that's been the, that's been the tenor of this defense. And I think that is wrong. I don't think it needed to be that way.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then Holman moved back his focus again to put it squarely upon Richard Allen. He talked about how Richard Allen has no remorse, how at times he's indicated he wants to apologize to the family members, but he's never taken any steps to actually do so. He also spoke about how Richard Allen is using religion in order to manipulate his wife Kathy and his mother to get what he wants. He indicated that he believes that Richard Allen is a danger and he poses a threat to the community.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, it's interesting. For all the remorse and one might say whining that Allen has done over time about how bad he feels for the families of the victims, he's not once apologized to any of them. So I think remorse seems to be something where that's a journey that needs to be completed. You know, anything. Anything less than a direct apology is. Is. Is. Is really not something that I would even characterize as remorse, because most of it seemed to be deployed in conversations with Allen's family, which seemed to be around like, I want to visit with you and I. I miss you and I want you to love me anyway. It's. It didn't really seemed like it had much to do with the victims families at the end of the day. So I think that was a pretty apt observation by Lieutenant Holman.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is there anything else you want to say about Lt. Holman's testimony? There was no cross examination.

[Anya Kane]

There was no cross examination. Not too. No, not too surprising. I just think. I think he was a powerful speaker here. I think he kind of was able to concept, you know, kind of put together the law enforcement perspective on this. And it felt like one kind of. He kind of kicked off the theme of today, which is like the. The gag order is lifted. Like, we've heard indirectly and directly through leaks, through social media deputies, through, you know, filings, We've heard the defense again and again and again. And. And one thing that's been, you know, pretty obvious to us as people reporting on this is that the prosecution side respected the gag order and was not interested in leaking. So I. I feel like today was the kind of. The floodgates opened of, like, yes, we've been listening to all of this for, like, over. Over a year or however long we've been doing this, and we're gonna say something back. And this very interesting to hear that from both law enforcement and the families.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then it was time for the families to get their opportunity to speak. The first family member to speak was Carrie Timmons, who, as you may or may not know, is the mother of victim Liberty German.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. Kerry's statement was incredibly moving and really just raw. It got into the pain she has felt. She talked about, quote, the path of destruction left in the wake of the decisions of Richard Allen that she's caught up in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And she also expressed the thought that she doesn't even know how to begin to process the fact that a man who is a husband and a father is capable of the violence that was done to those girls.

[Anya Kane]

She recalled, Libby was a girl wise bond, wise beyond her 14 years. She was a girl that Carrie could go to for advice and talk about. You know, Libby was living with her grandparents. They were her legal guardians, but she and her mother still had a close relationship. They talked frequently, and that's what Carrie described. And Carrie said that, quote, I was totally blind to the fact such evil exists, quote. And then she also said, you know, in terms of finding out, like, when it was. She said that when the evil figure was bridge guy, it was almost easier for her to deal with because it was a question mark. But, quote, I don't know what is worse, knowing or not knowing, end quote. Because to find out that it was not some obviously evil person with a criminal history or whatnot, it was just your CVS employee, just a regular guy. Shift manager at the cvs. Regular guy, married, has a child, has a dog, doesn't have a record of doing this. She talked about how Libby would be 22. I guess she and Libby had a birthday around the same time. And, you know, she said she stopped celebrating her birthday that year. Birthdays are difficult for her family as a result of this. And she's missed out on things where Libby has not gotten to have a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Libby will never get a driver's license or go to college or fall in love or get married, have babies or have grandkids for. For Carrie, she. She mentioned that she struggled with guilt and anxiety. And she says until she and Libby meet again, Libby will always be her sunshine.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And she talked about how it's hard for her to see kids who were Libby's age grow up and move on, because Libby never can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Kane]

The pain from all of these people who spoke and these family members who spoke and shared their victim impact statements was really palpable, and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was devastating and very difficult to hear. And one thing is, almost all of them said at one point, I don't know, how about eloquent? I don't know the right words. They all knew the right words. They all expressed their grief and their heartache in such a way that everyone in that court, with the possible exception of Richard Allen, felt it and mourned with them and grieved with them. And we were all left understanding how this is an event that happened close to eight years ago, but for this family, it's going to be a wound that never heals.

[Anya Kane]

I can't fathom what. It's what they're feeling, but I feel so bad for all of them, and I just feel so bad that this world was robbed of these two kids. It shouldn't have happened. They shouldn't have died like this in fear from just some selfish, creepy. But let's move on to the next one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The next person to offer a statement was Josh Lank. This is one of Libby's cousins, about her age. You may. If you've been following this case for a while, you might remember he is a race car driver. And prior to the arrest of Richard Allen, there were times when he'd put, like, a poster of a wanted poster on the car that he used to race. So to help raise awareness, he said.

[Anya Kane]

That they were cousins, but they really were raised more like brother and sister. They're very close. He said it was always him, his brother, Libby and Kelsey. And they'd all hang out together. They'd be on the. The bus together, they'd go to grandma's house together. They would just. They were like a quartet little, you know, kind of. Some people are very close with their cousins. And, and this was certainly a family where that was the case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said Libby was one of a kind and would have gone on to do great things. He said that Richard Allen has made his life and his family's life a living house, and now it is time for Richard Allen's life to be a living hell.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, the anger, too, was. Was very much expressed here. And, and, and he talked about how, quote, the devil has a special place in hell, end quote, for, for. For people like Alan. And also that, you know, it may be the prison system will be where he meets his end. Just because people in prison. And we've. We know this from talking with inmates, people in prison, inmates do not. The, the bottom of the pecking order are people who have hurt children that, that they are. They're at risk. And, and he pointed that out and saying, you know, he might be a dead man walking.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. It's important to remember that the defense has complained long and loud about Richard Allen being kept in a cell, a cell by himself. The reason for that is because it was a necessary step to take to protect him. And I think all of us understand that if Richard Allen were put into general population, or gen pop, as they call it, it is extraordinarily likely that the other inmates would do him serious harm very quickly.

[Anya Kane]

No question. I don't think he'd survive very long if that was the case. The next. And also, Josh also talked about thanking the town, thanking Delphi for embracing the families and embracing Libby and Abby's memories, painting the town. And you see that in teal and purple. Those are the kind of the colors of the girls. If you go around town now, you can see some ribbons in those colors. And so he thanked the community as well for being so supportive.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The next person to offer an impact statement was Diane Erskine, who is Abby's grandmother. She began by stressing that this is not a day of celebration. It's a day of great sadness. And she referred to Abby as my first child's only child. She said Abby's favorite phrase was, do you need any help? She said.

[Anya Kane]

In response to that, she said, yes, Abby, I sure need your help right now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She said Abby was not bold or brave, especially when it comes to strangers. And so that really tears her heart out when she thinks about how Abby met her end. She talked about how Abby was a shy girl who blushed easily. And so the idea of her being forced to strip is. It's just devastating to her to think about. And also to think about the crime scene photos that have been circulated.

[Anya Kane]

She called them sick propaganda.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

How they've been used, and they have been used as sick propaganda. Some people who lack empathy and lack the ability to regulate themselves essentially feel that it's more important for them to be able to gawk and obsess over these things, even though they have no ability to. Even. They don't add anything to the conversation, but they feel like it proves a point that they're trying to make. And so it is sick propaganda that that is exactly how it's been used.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She talked about how horrible it was for her to see the graphic crime scene photos and also some of the graphic autopsy photos that were shown during the trial. She said she didn't really know before then how intrusive an autopsy is and that these are images that are going to haunt her for a very long time. She says she understands that technically she could have just walked out and not looked at those images. But she kept on thinking about the last words that Abby spoke on the video that was taken by Libby and those Last words were Abby sounding very scared, saying, don't leave me.

[Anya Kane]

Don't leave me up here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't leave me. And Libby did not leave her. And so Diane felt that she could not leave Abby either. And so she stayed.

[Anya Kane]

She talked about how her days are dominated by anxiety and how she. When she wakes up, she makes her bed and calculates the hours before she goes to sleep. And then she spends her days. Then she goes to bed and calculates the hours she'll be asleep and hopes that she has a nice dream about Abigail or other loved ones who've passed. And unfortunately, sometimes she has nightmares instead. And she's haunted by what ifs. She's haunted watching Abby's. Abigail's friends grow up and something. What, like what Carrie said. Grow up, get married, go to college, live their lives, grow from children to adults. And Abby will never get to do that. She talks about how many great grandchildren did she lose that day? Because Abby will never be able to grow up and become a mother and that her family will never be the same. She feels like a version of her has been lost. She feels guilty because she feels like that person's gone to her family. Now. She says, quote, I grieve the life I used to have. And she says she's only survived because of her faith in God and that she's comforted by the fact that Abigail had, quote, already given her heart to God.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. So even though Richard Allen took Abby's life on Earth, she'd already given her life to God. You want to talk about the next one?

[Anya Kane]

The next one was Diane's husband, Aaron Erskine, who is, of course, Abby's grandfather.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he was one of the ones that talked about how he allegedly was not very articulate. But I found him to be very, very articulate, and I found his words to be very, very moving.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, he talks about him. He said, I'm more of a nuts and bolts kind of guy, but he's gonna do his best. And he said he felt it was very difficult for him to process. Difficult for his family to process this. Each family member was affected in a different way. So it's. It's not even like a blanket thing, necessarily, losing someone like this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said it's kind of like losing a limb that will never come back.

[Anya Kane]

He also compared going through this case to having a wound that scabs over and then the scab is torn off. Specifically. Specifically things like the leak of crime scene photos that led to images of his granddaughter, her dead body, being leaked out on the Internet. That was something that was re. Traumatizing it. Anyone who goes around acting like that's not a big deal, acting like it's just a little drip or that, you know, whatever, you know, everyone who, everyone who emo, like, downplayed that, everyone who acted, you know, like the minimize and try to gaslight people about that, they should hang their heads in shame. Well, because of what we heard from these people was agony today about this. And people should think about it if it was someone they loved and cared about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think, to be blunt, this might be one of the reasons why Bob Motta chose not to be there today because you used the phrase drip. He was the one that compared the crime scene photos coming out to a drip. And maybe he could not face the prospect of facing these family members who were so torn apart and continued to be devastated by something that he mocked and made light of.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, that's going to be an albatross around his neck because I, I, that that's not something I'm ever going to forget. And that's nothing. Something anyone who cares at all about any sort of ethics in this space should care. It should, should forget. And frankly, anyone who was involved in that leak and anyone who's involved in minimizing and trying to spin it like it wasn't a big deal, you know, should be absolutely ashamed of themselves if they're capable of such a thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, these families made it clear how devastating that was.

[Anya Kane]

This was not a little oop that is going to haunt these people for the rest of their lives, that it didn't need to happen. And it's just disgusting to me, you know. But anyway, back to what Mr. Erskine was saying, he was talking about how that, you know, basically what he said Allen did was he, he has, quote, stolen our future. He, Gosh, he talked about, he did talk about God and sort of his faith in God and how that has helped and kind of the faith that has helped him and his family through this. He talked about talking about Allen himself. He kind of was one thing was really struck by, was, quote, how could you continue to go about your daily routine like it never happened? That's one thing that's always kind of gotten a lot of people about, Alan, is that, you know, well, there's not really a lot of people close to him who are willing to talk about him. So I don't know if it's fair to say his daily routine, I don't know if it's fair to say, like, if we can say he didn't change at all because we don't, we don't know what he was like before. And then after, did he become a little bit quieter? Did he become a little bit more reserved? Like, did anything change? We're not necessarily getting answers from people on that, but I think at the very least, Mr. Erskine is completely right. Alan clocked back into CVS and kept working and kept just living his normal life for a number of years and certainly wasn't doing anything particularly overt that would signal that anything bad had happened. And there's something very horrifying about that because we'd like to think that if someone does something really heinous, they'll be acting differently. There'll be a way to tell. It's scary, the idea that someone could do this and then just go back to normal to a certain extent.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The next person to offer a statement was Becky Patty, who, of course, is the grandmother of Victim Liberty German. I call her a victim. Obviously, she was far more than a victim, and she had a full life and she deserved far better than this. So I don't, I don't mean to just refer to her as a victim. Libby's a victim. Yeah, I, I, I apologize for that.

[Anya Kane]

No, and I just want to also add with, with Mr. Erskine. He talked about how he has no doubt that these girls are in heaven. He called Allen selfish. And he also talked about how, essentially he puts his trust in Judge Gull and felt that she did a really good job with the trial and trusts her with the sentence.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Becky Patty said, how can you explain the effect of something like that? There are not enough words. Richard Allen is an adult. He should be held accountable. She talked about how on the day of the murders, instead of going out for a meal with his mother and sister, he chose to drink beer for liquid courage and then go and basically lie in wait for these two girls who he planned to rape. She says that once he got frightened when he saw the van come by, he could have let them go, but instead he chose to kill them. She said he was a coward and he did not want to be held accountable for what he had done, so he killed them and then just went home.

[Anya Kane]

It's striking to me that she had to say, richard Allen is an adult. And that might seem odd to people who are not as familiar with the case, because it's like, of course he's an adult. But the way he's been infantilized throughout this trial by the defense team, it's worth remembering. You know, this man is in his 50s. He's what, 52 or something? I forget. He's in his early 50s. The way he's talked about has basically been like, well, mommy and wifey take care of him, and he doesn't do anything, and he's a fragile egg.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was literally called a fragile egg.

[Anya Kane]

Literally called a fragile egg by the defense psychologist. It just making him out to just be this, like, pathetic baby of a man. And, you know, at the end of the day, he very likely struggled with some anxiety, depression, mental health issues, whatever. You know, a lot of people do, and they don't go out and kill two teenage girls. I don't think that has anything to do with, like, rape fantasies. But either way, it's like he made his choice. He made decisions that day. Those girls didn't get to decide what happened. He did. He had the power and control over that situation. So by Becky kind of refocusing on that and his accountability, it's kind of an adjustment from what we've been used to hearing about him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She also referred to an anecdote I think most of us have heard, which is that in the days after the murders, when the family wanted to develop some photos of the. The girls for the funeral, those photos were developed at CVS by none other than Richard Allen. She spoke about how when he was developing those photos for them, he must have seen how they were struggling and grieving, and she wondered what he was thinking.

[Anya Kane]

She talked about how Libby never got to go on dates, never got to go to prom, to college, to marry anybody, to have a family or become the best aunt ever. Quote, the world was robbed of what could have been.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She also said that Richard Allen was appointed two lawyers who did nothing but twist the knife in the wounds. And she also referred to how the sloppiness of one of these attorneys allowed photos of Libby's nude and mutilated body to reach the public. And yeah, that's. That's pretty accurate.

[Anya Kane]

That is true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And she said family members, because of this lawyer's sloppiness, family members may see them. Now, family members in the future who just want to look up information about their deceased relative may see these pictures. And as she says, this is entirely the result of the sloppiness of this lawyer.

[Anya Kane]

And that actually reminds me something that Diane Erskine said. She talked about how this, like, this is trauma that is going to last for generations. And that's something that Becky touched upon here, talking about how Libby's future nieces, nephews, cousins, if they look this up, they may see what happened to her. They might see those pictures and it's, it affects so many people and, and that's, and that's an important point because it'll come up later.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It is not a drip. She also said she wondered if this lawyer, Andrew Baldwin, would have been so careless if those photos were of his own children. She also referred to the other attorney, of course, as Brad Rosie. He rather notoriously said in chambers to the judge that he didn't care much that the photos had leaked. And again, Becky wondered if he would say that if he, it was his children who were depicted in those images. And she just said, Richard Allen is not the victim.

[Anya Kane]

He's not. And I'll just say this like, one thing that's always baffled me about this defense team is so often they take the kind of obtuse and unempathetic and, and just kind of frankly disgraceful tact when there's one available to them that's a little bit more principled. They could have easily, throughout this, have acknowledged the severity of the leak and just said, we are so sorry this was a huge breach and we understand the pain caused and, and whatnot and really just stuck with that and just said, but we'd still like to stay on. We don't, we don't think we should be thrown off. Like you could, you could do that. Instead they, they had all of their little acolytes go out and act like it was just a, you know, just a silly misunderstanding, just a silly slip up. Who, who amongst us hasn't done something like this and act like it was just no big deal? And, and that to me just was always just baffling, that it just undermined their credibility and, and sort of any claim they would have to have any sort of empathy with what these families are going through. It was just needless.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was needless.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. She, she. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you want to wrap her up and then we'll move on to.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, I'm looking if there's any other quotes. She talked about the fallout that her family and, and the families, both families have experienced and talked about how that quote falls directly on the head of Richard Allen and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, there's a comment here. I want to read things like the.

[Anya Kane]

Deafening silence in her house, things like the, the lost birthdays, the, the kind of, the impact on their lives and how these girls are gone forever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She said since Richard Allen's attorneys don't want him in a single occupant cell, she hopes he gets put in gen pop and hope he lives in fear each day and Remember what we said a few moments ago, that if he is put in gen pop, he's going to be injured.

[Anya Kane]

Well, she said in the. I like the way she said it. She says, you know, he should get the human interaction. He's so obviously, you know, his defense attorneys feel would be so good for him. So just put him in gen pop. You know, the. The anger was. Was certainly palpable, and the sadness.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One thing that broke my heart is she said that she lives every day with the burden of the decision on that day to allow the girls to go to the trails.

[Anya Kane]

I know. And it's like she didn't do anything wrong. I mean, that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's heartbreaking.

[Anya Kane]

It's like a. It's like a beautiful little trail system in. In, like, a peaceful little Indiana town. There were two of these girls there together. No one could have anticipated a monster was out there that day hunting that. He had decided that day that he was going to make himself feel like a real man and go hunting for women and girls. And the fact that she feels guilty about that just breaks my heart. This is on one person. This is on Richard Allen. She said, I take responsibility for that. What about you, Richard Allen? Will you ever own up and take responsibility for the choices you made that day? And she also talked about how the prosecutor frequently, you know, obviously, Nicholas McLeland and his two deputies, James Luttrell and Stacy Deener, put this case frequently above their own needs, put it frequently above everything else. But, you know, this is. Yeah, she was very eloquent. I think, Becky, everyone really did a great job, but I think some of the anger and sadness she was able to convey here was. And just. She really seemed to be taking the defense to task. A lot of them did, but certainly in this one. So I think her husband, Mike. Patty spoke next.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. He was the final speaker, Libby's granddad, of course. He requested that Richard Allen receive the maximum sentence with no possibility of parole. He thanked the judge, he thanked the prosecution. He thanked the investigative team. He said that whenever he talked to the investigative team, they never told him they were out of options. They always were doing a full court press and doing all they could to bring answers to this case. And he said that's something he would never forget. He also thanked his family. And he said something, again, I find heartbreaking. He said, I wish I could have protected everyone from having to go through this.

[Anya Kane]

No. God, I just don't. Like. We've had a. We've had interactions with the Patties just through the trial, and through their, Their larger family and with Abby's family. They're. They're wonderful people. One thing that will always stick with me is that the Libby's family was, like, feeding people throughout this whole thing. They were feeding people. I mean, they were feeding people who have tried to make their lives hell for years. Like, they were giving food to people who have been objectively awful to them. And, and that is the kind of people they are. They're good people. They're. They're. They're better people than I could hope to be in that situation. If I was confronted with. If I was giving food out and I was confronted with the. The visage of some, like, sneering idiot who's been trying to harass me and my family for years, I would probably throw the food in their face. And they had the grace and decency to just be kind to everyone and that just. I don't know how they do that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They are extraordinary people. He also took the defense to task for their inability to protect the crime scene photos. And he also again criticized Brad Rosie for saying he didn't care that the crime scene photos had leaked. He. He made some comments directly at Richard Allen. One of the comments, he said to Richard Allen, he. Talking about. He said, actions always speak louder than words. And I thought it was interesting at that point, I saw Richard Allen nod in agreement.

[Anya Kane]

What did he. What did he not in agreement to?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Actions always speak louder than words.

[Anya Kane]

Weirdo. I. I think, oh, this was one thing I wanted to say with, With Becky. Did she. Was she the one who mentioned, like, stop putting our family through this agony and just actually take accountability? Was that Mike?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think Becky said it.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. Basically, like, if you actually feel any remorse, then you can just stop having this kind of basically farce go on and actually put a stop to whatever stupid appeal you're going to put on. Essentially was what she was saying, which seemed reasonable because, I mean, his whole thing was how sad he felt for the family. So you would think that dragging them through this endlessly would probably not exactly show any level of remorse. And I apologize. I think I said Becky said something about the prosecutors that was actually. Mike. I had my notes mixed up, so just wanted to clarify that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Becky Sully made the comment about the appeals. So did Mike. I see here in my notes that he said, stop the appeals. Let the girls rest in peace.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. I mean, basically saying like that if as long as that's going on, there's obviously no remorse. And yeah, all of these folks were incredibly eloquent and what they said was powerful emotional. I cried. I know other people were crying the courtroom. A lot of sniffles in, in this portion when, when they were talking.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Shall we move on?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So next it was time for prosecutor Nick McClelland to make remarks which basically he was. He was tasked with telling the judge what he thought the sentence should be and then explaining why in essence, the judge had certain parameters that she had to choose a sentence from. McClelland talked about Abby and Libby were very special. They touched many lives. They were caring and loving. He said the family had had to endure six years of torture before the arrest. He said after the arrest, YouTubers accused the family of being corrupt. The family was victimized, he said, by the release of the crime scene photos. Even today, they continue to see the photos. This also affected the community as a whole. Now it has become a place where people always lock the doors.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He talked about how Richard Allen has shown nor remorse or regret. He Talked about how Dr. Walla had recorded some information about a confession he had made to her, including the detail about him lying in wait for his victims. And he said something about that phrase just kept ringing around in his head and he found it very disturbing.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, the amount of this was not just somebody who decided to rob somebody and it went wrong. This was somebody who went out with a mission to hunt and stalk women and girls. And Abby and Libby just happened to be unlucky enough to cross the bridge at that time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Prosecutor McLeland said that he has probably watched that 43 second video from Libby's phone a thousand times and he remains very disturbed by the fear he heard in Abigail's voice. And that is a very striking and terrible thing to hear.

[Anya Kane]

And. Yeah, God, it really, it is. And, and the fact that these two young girls were forced to strip naked.

[Kevin Greenlee]

13 and 14 year old girls forced to strip and expose their naked bodies. He says he can't imagine what that was like.

[Anya Kane]

I mean, when you think about girls at that age, frankly, heck, when you think about boys at that age, kids at that age, I mean, that's unimaginable. Someone like Richard Allen is, is supposed to be someone who's protective of children. He's a father himself. Instead he turned around and did this to other people's kids. Would it. What is. I mean, it's sick.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said that he believes that Richard Allen would kill again. And he again was struck by the fact that Richard Allen had killed these two girls and then went on with his life as if nothing happened. And the sentence he wanted was for 65 years on both count to be served consecutively for a total of 130 years. That's what he was asking the judge.

[Anya Kane]

I wanna. Go ahead.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Go ahead.

[Anya Kane]

I was just curious, how do you think someone can go on with their lives after doing something like that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know.

[Anya Kane]

I have thoughts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Go ahead.

[Anya Kane]

People often express bafflement, and I think that that is fair because it is baffling. But to me, it's not impossible to meet someone compartmentalizing. Someone who's incredibly selfish, who's basically out there for their own needs, and, you know, someone who cares deeply about what other people think about them, which we've heard is Richard Allen to a T. Again and again. That's how he's been described. He's very sensitive. He wants people to like him. He thinks it's very important what people think about him. You know, that is. That is the kind of person that can keep chugging, running on fumes. Maybe on some level they're torn up about it, maybe they're not. Maybe they don't care. Maybe. Maybe it's just, you know, an incident for them. But I think. I think it's possible for people to comment compartmentalize and. And move on and just hope that they're not going to get caught, because getting caught would wreck their lives. And in this case, it obviously did.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And. And then the defense basically made no argument. Rosie did stand up and say one thing, which I think rubbed you the wrong way, but which I actually think makes sense.

[Anya Kane]

No, I. I'm gonna say this. It rubbed me in the wrong way, but intellectually it was fair.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why don't you say what it is?

[Anya Kane]

Rosie stands up and basically says, judge, I was just hoping we could kind of, like, almost not count all of the stuff that the family said about us as lawyers, which, like, on first read, sounds bad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, basically, he is saying, let me. Let me say perhaps arguably a bit more clearly.

[Anya Kane]

Okay, whatever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The family's basically listing things called aggravating circumstances. These are bad things. This is how it affects us. Therefore, he deserves a worse sentence. And in the course of doing so, they had many complaints about the lawyers. And so Rosie was saying, no matter what you think about those complaints about the defense team, please don't charge them on Richard Allen. Please just make your sentences. Just please just make your sentencing decision based on Richard Allen and his own acts. It would be as if I was up for a podcast award for an episode where you just started ranting about cereal and making odd noises. You would probably Say to the judges. You would probably say to the judges, please don't consider my participation. Just focus and evaluate Kevin on his own merits.

[Anya Kane]

Kind of podcast. Okay, whatever. And I think that's fair. The, the attorney's behavior is not necessarily aggravating. That being said, I think it's not aggravate.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's aggravating to everybody, but it's not aggravating. It's not an aggravating factor.

[Anya Kane]

But it's also completely fair in my mind for the families to call it out because they've had to endure it for years. I mean, these defense attorneys have been more than happy to sort of dish out whatever they want. And so I think. And also to dismiss the real impact they've. Their actions have had on these people, just from things like the leak and whatnot. And so I, I think, I, I think it was reasonable for them to bring it up, but I do think it was reasonable for Rosie to say, hey, that's, that's not going to count against Alan. Right. What the family was saying is it should almost because he's basically allowed his attorneys to do this. Like, that's been their whole strategy. So I get what they're saying, but, you know, it's, it would be a little bit too far removed, I would imagine. So it's, it's ultimately not going to count against him. But certainly part of their truth and part of their experience, so certainly something worth mentioning. But just sometimes, the way when Rosie brings up, like, he's often the ones who's, like, who's on his feet saying, like, well, you know, like, no one could prove the lawyers did anything wrong. Like, he just. It's so defensive, you know what I mean? Like, they, there's been a couple of instances like that where, you know, the people have been testifying. Yeah, well, Alan said that he was, you know, kind of pushed by his lawyers to do this and that, and he'll be like, oh, don't look over there. It's like, what are, like, yikes. I mean, it. There's a bear. There's very much been a defensiveness to this defense team that has kind occurred for a long time. And I would really love to have been a fly on a wall of some of their conversations with Allen about, like, what were they telling him to do and what were they telling him not to do or, you know what I mean, what did he want to do? Like, were they representing him in that way where they were fulfilling his wishes or what exactly was happening here? It seems like it'll be very hard to ever get a clear answer on that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So after that, Judge Gold gave Richard Allen an opportunity to speak, which he did not take. And so then it was time for Judge Gull to hand down the sentence.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

First thing she did was there was four murder charges. What'd she do?

[Anya Kane]

She dismissed two of them. So she only charged him on count, I believe, three and four.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

So counts one and two were essentially Indiana's version of felony murder. Meaning that those are. Allen kidnapped the girls and they ended up dead as a result of that kidnapping. So it's murder. You can't. You can't charge on all. You can't. He can get convicted on all four, but he can't get sentenced on all four because that's double jeopardy. So they gotta winnow down to the two ones. And so they. They did three and four.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then she said, okay, let's go through their memo. The defense team asked me to consider certain things to be a mitigating factor. In other words, these were things the defense team said I should consider in order to make the sentence more lenient. They said, I should consider the fact that he did not have a criminal history. And she said, okay, I'll consider it, but I'm not going to give it much weight because even though he did not previously have a criminal history, this particular offense is so serious that that kind of is overshadowed by that.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, you don't. Yeah, exactly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They wanted her to consider the fact that this imprisonment will be a hardship on Kathy Allen. And she said, no, I'm not going to consider that, because anytime a person's in prison, that could be, you know.

[Anya Kane]

It was a stupid ask, frankly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They wanted her to consider the fact that he served in the military. And she said, well, no, that's not relevant.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, why would that be relevant? I mean, like, I appreciate anyone who's, you know, part of our armed services and veterans and whatnot, our armed forces, rather. But like, it was just like they were trying to, like, pitch anything that might sound kind of good. It was like, what does that have to do with the crime?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, they wanted her to consider the fact that he had some problems in his lifetime with depression and anxiety. And she said she will not do that because there's no real connection between his depression and his anxiety and what he did to those two girls there.

[Anya Kane]

There might be mental illnesses of different kinds where maybe the person wouldn't be insane at the time of the commission of the crime, but you could see how the mental illness led to a situation where that unfolded, and I imagine that would be a mitigating factor. Is that right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

But being. I mean, I have anxiety and I've gotten depressed. I mean, Gez, like, a lot of people have. That's not going to make you kill people. That's. I mean, even when they're going on and on about his mental illnesses, it's just like, they never really made. I never felt like they painted a portrait of, like, why. I don't know. Like, it. It just never really quite added up there. And I just. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then it was time for her to talk about aggravating circumstances. So, again, these are things she's considering that should make the sentence tougher. She mentioned that she's been a judge for, I think, either 26 or 27 years. She's presided over many hideous cases, and she said this ranks right up there with the worst of them. And she said the impact of what Richard Allen did on these families is astonishing.

[Anya Kane]

Yep, Yep. She talked about, you know, their judges are not just necessarily permitted to do whatever they want when it comes to sentencing. She can't just say a thousand years, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Basically, she. For each count, she can choose between 45 to 65 years.

[Anya Kane]

So there's a. There's a. A limit, and there's a. There's a ceiling and there's a basement. And she also mentioned something that Diane Erskine said here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right. She thanked her and I think also Becky. Patty.

[Anya Kane]

Right, And Becky Patty.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So they spoke of generational impact.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, generational impact. She said, I never even considered that before. So thank you. I think she specifically thanked Diane, but I believe Becky also touched upon it for bringing it up and talking about how, um, these families will deal with your carnage forever. I think that was something she said there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That is what she said. That's in my notes. And then as she said that, he must have rolled his eyes at her because she said, you sit here and you roll your eyes at me as you've rolled your eyes at me throughout the trial. And this just underscores. This man's behavior in court has not served him well. He's acted erratic and bizarre. And rolling your eyes at the judge is. She is. Passing down a sentence is not a smart thing to do.

[Anya Kane]

I didn't. We didn't see it because obviously he's not facing us most of the time. But the fact that she says he's been rolling his eyes at her this whole time, I mean, ridiculous. It just makes you wonder, is this some sort of, like, snarky reaction to him not being in control anymore. Is it, is it the fact that she's a female judge that really bothers him? You know, I mean, it's not lost on me that, you know, they, they, you know, the defense made a whole big thing about women running his life, basically between his wife and mother. But then he seems to really resent women if he's going around trying to, you know, rape and murder women and children. So I, I wonder if that could be also part of it. Like, don't tell me what to do. It's like, bratty. It's just remarkable that one would be the one thing, like defense attorneys tell you to do it. Sentencing is like, don't react, don't react. Don't get upset. Don't do anything. And he's, he's sitting there rolling his eyes. And this is despite the, that they've. All this defense team has been coddling him from the beginning and, like, petting his shoulders and stuff like that, and he can't keep it together.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So she ended up passing a sentence of 65 years on each count for a total of 130 years. That's the maximum sentence. So exactly what Mike Patty asked for. This was followed rather quickly by prosecutor McLeland saying he wants to seal the crime scene in autopsy photos. He also wants to keep Richard Allen's mental health record sealed in order to protect his privacy. And then after that, the judge announced that the gag order was lifted and the session ended. But something interesting happened.

[Anya Kane]

Well, can I just, before we get into that, didn't she also say he got some days of credit for time? He's already been incarcerated, so it's going to come out to a little bit less than 1:30. Yeah, yeah, I think so. That, that's just something to note. So the math, if it comes out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is he's going to die in prison.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, that's what's important.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Gag lifted. And then something. There were some raised voices. Defense attorney Jennifer O.J. went over towards Jerry Holman and Nick McClelland and in very loud language expressed her dismay over having been called unethical. And I believe it was affirmed by both those gentlemen that that remained their belief. And she was very unhappy about that and kind of stormed off. And it's very strange to me that she is so upset about the defense team being called unethical because the people on the other side of the defense I mentioned earlier, there's an investigator on the defense team who is palling around with someone who is calling Jerry Holman an attempted murderer. They have accused these people of conspiracy. They have accused these people of hiding and destroying evidence and all sorts of other terrible, terrible crimes in order to convict their client, who is a plainly guilty man. So they have done all of this. They have smeared the character of these people for no reason, and yet they get upset when they are called out for it. And so perhaps Richard Allen is now the only fragile egg at that table.

[Anya Kane]

Bullies with glass jaws. They can. I mean, it seems like they can dish it, but they cannot take it. I mean, that. That was shocking to me, that she kind of got in their faces like that. It just seemed, like, unprofessional, frankly. I. I just also. I don't get it. It's like, I don't know, she came into it later than the other two. She's not implicated in the leak or anything like that. That. I mean, just. Just take the loss, man. Like, I don't know, it like they were going to lose this thing. He was obviously guilty. The evidence was pretty much insurmountable when they all laid it out at the end of the day, but they chose to lose with. Without any grace. And I think that's unfortunate. I think it's damaging to them, in my opinion. I don't think it needed to happen that way. I think it's ultimately going to be more damaging to them than it is to the people that they tried to smear. Because I don't think. I don't think people are walking away thinking, wow, Nicholas McLelan was hiding all that evidence. I think they're thinking, yeah, he did a very good job with this. And I don't think they're coming away thinking Jerry Holman is the, you know, like the orchestrator of this bizarre conspiracy. I think it's like he was part of a team that successfully investigated this case and solved it, which is what it's like. It's. I don't know, this. This defense team, it's. I mean, I'm just gonna say, like, I. I think it's been a mess. I think it's been a complete mess. And I think if they can't handle being called unethical in this situation, then I really. I don't know, maybe they're not cut out for this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Fragile eggs. So that was it for the court session. There was a press conference held shortly afterwards. We're going to give you some highlights of it. Again, I believe video of the complete thing is available. So we're not going to go into excruciating detail, but we'll give you some of our impressions.

[Anya Kane]

Sure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This press conference was held at a conference center where I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, people always say that Ani and I started covering this case from the beginning. That's not true. That's not true.

[Anya Kane]

We didn't know each other in 2017. We didn't know who you know. I didn't know you. You didn't know me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We knew ourselves.

[Anya Kane]

We knew ourselves. Did we? Without each other?

[Kevin Greenlee]

How romantic. But there was a famous press conference in this case in 2019. This was the new direction press conference, and I believe that was held at this conference center.

[Anya Kane]

Yes, that's what we were told by some of the journalists, and I think that was referred to in the press conference itself.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So for a lot of people who have covered this case from the beginning, they indicated it was kind of surreal to be back there.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For us, it was the first time we were there.

[Anya Kane]

For us, we felt nothing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, Jeremy.

[Anya Kane]

Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Jeremy Piers, who's a public information officer, he said there's going to be with the state police. With the state police. He said there's going to be a few speakers. Mike Patty, Tony Liggett, Superintendent Doug Carter, and Nick McClelan. And then Nick would then take some questions. So the first speaker was Mike Patty. He said justice has been served. He talked about this has been eight years of his life. And I was struck by the fact that he said, if I make it to the age of 80, it will be that 10% of my life has been spent on this.

[Anya Kane]

She's. God, I. I can't even imagine for. For that. All those family members, the amount of what they've had to go through here and the. The lack of answers. But then the kind of nonsense that came about when answers seemed close at hand, it's just very frustrating. And he also thanked the jurors for taking time out of their own lives to put into hearing out this case, methodically going over it and coming to a decision in it. He also talked about how the community really embraced his family and the Williams family. And thanks. Thank the judge for her professionalism as well.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Tony Liggett spoke next. I. I think for a lot of people who haven't had the experience of seeing him testify, this was probably their longest exposure to him. He is an intelligent, articulate guy. And for a lot of people, they just see film footage of him walking about silently. So it must have been interesting for them to finally get to hear the man speak.

[Anya Kane]

Where's their film Footage of him walking about silently.

[Kevin Greenlee]

When you see on newscasts and stuff, you might see him walking by, escorting a prisoner, it's like, what are you.

[Anya Kane]

What.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So people haven't gotten the chance to. He is an intelligent, articulate man.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, no, he was very good at. In the testimony during the trial, and he was. I mean, everyone who spoke up at this did a very good job. I thought he was absolutely no exception.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said, today is not about closure. It's really just turning the page and starting a new chapter. I was struck by the fact that he apologized, that it took. He apologized to the families for the fact that it took eight years to bring a resolution to the case. Yeah, I thought that was very humble. And it's.

[Anya Kane]

It was poignant.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was poignant, and it was somebody. It was a mature man taking responsibility.

[Anya Kane]

And it was like, you know, that these investigators were. Who were working on it very hard, were. Did not want it to take that long and would have done it in a day if they could have. There was this tip that got buried, you know, a whole mess around that. But, yeah, you could feel the emotion with that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not his fault it took eight years.

[Anya Kane]

No, no, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He. He said that Kathy Shank, who I'll remind you of, is the person who found the Richard Allen tip. He. He gives her. He says she's the reason that we're all here today. But he also deserves credit because he worked that lead when she brought him this information. Tony Liggett knew what to do with it.

[Anya Kane]

He was out there in the CVS parking lot taking photos of this guy's car and running them back so they could look at the Hoosier Harvest store video. I mean, he was all of these. So this was a team effort. And, yeah, he was absolutely a crucial part of that team.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I think when he. It's not his fault it took eight years. It's not these guys fault it took eight years. He also praised the Indiana State Police and Jerry Holman. He said early on, Jerry Holman said that the Indiana State Police would give you all the help and resources that you need, and he did.

[Anya Kane]

So what happened? What he discussed was. I mean, also, I will. I will say in the opening, I was struck. He actually mentioned the Flora fires. He said that period of Carroll county where six beautiful young girls were, you know, killed in a period of six months. It was very traumatic for their town. And he noted Indiana State Police is working the Flora case hard. It's not a Carroll county case anymore. But he. The thing with the Whole, what were we talking about? The team effort and sort of with Holman. And he talked about how early on they had a conversation where, you know, it was like, does Carroll county want to take this case? And he was like, I don't know if we can. Like, we're a small county. I don't know if the resources are there. And, like, basically what Holman told him is like, the state police aren't going to leave you. We're going to. We're going to work this with you. And. And, like, we can do this together almost. And that teamwork was absolutely evinced today. I will note, behind the speakers. It wasn't just like, the speaker was up there behind. Holman was behind them. You know, Kathy Schenk was up there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Kathy Schenk is the volunteer who is taking time to go and help out with this case. And she is the one that discovered the Richard Allen tip that had been misfiled. And so she deserves such an enormous amount of credit, and she is a hero, not just for finding the. The tip, but for devoting so much of her time to this case.

[Anya Kane]

Also. How fitting that somebody who worked for years in Child Protective Services kind of came back for one last moment where she's protecting children in that county from. From a man who was fined to go out and slaughter two kids to satisfy his own sexual desires. Like, that's the kind of person she is. She's not getting paid to volunteer. She's not doing it for money or anything or accolades, aids. She's going out there because she wanted to. You know, even though she was retired, she wanted to go back out and protect the kids from that county.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And also, as it came out at the trial, the day she found that crucial tip was her. Her deceased husband's birthday. And so, yeah, it.

[Anya Kane]

It's remarkable. And she's heroic not, not just because she found the tip, but because of all of the effort and energy she put into this, just seemingly for the goal of helping people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, she was a crucial member of this team. And Tony Liggett said he has zero doubt that justice has been served. And he said today is the day.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, he said. He said that he. He has stickers of a phrase that came from Becky Patty, where she would often post today might be the day. And like, talking about, like, the day where they finally find out who Bridge guy is and the case is finally closed. And he talked about. I think he has that on his car, on his fridge, on his computer. I mean, this is somebody who obviously wanted to take his work home with him, to remind him of how important this case was. And it paid off.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then Superintendent of the United States Police Doug Carter spoke. I say he's the superintendent of the United States Police and he is, but he only will be for another couple of weeks because he is about to retire and he is retiring on a heck of a win here.

[Anya Kane]

I know, right? Isn't it wild that this all came down like literally right before he's out the door? It's like the timing, it's, it's. I mean, I don't know, it's remarkable. I mean, good for him. I know. I think it's been apparent to anybody who's followed this case for a long time how important this case has been to him. You can tell from the emotion with which he speaks about it throughout, throughout all these different press conferences over the years, he, it obviously meant a lot to him. The families of these girls meant a lot to him. The girls themselves meant a lot to him. And, and we saw that kind of culminate today.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, you talk about his emotion and he said that he and some of the others have been mocked and ostracized for their emotions, but they're not going to apologize for them.

[Anya Kane]

And I liked a classic Carter move. He comes in, he's like, I have prepared remarks, but I'm not going to use them today. So he kind of, he spoke from the heart. He spoke not his prepared remarks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said a lot of interesting things, really fascinating things. He said he's always going to remember those victim impact statements we told you about. He talked about, you know, we've mentioned the defense attorneys had alleged all sorts of crazy cover up theories. He said any notion of a cover up is just not correct. He said they lived by the gag order and the defense did not. And the fact that the defense did not live by the gag order cost a human life. Strong words, but accurate words. He's referring to the fact that one of the individuals who were involved in the crime scene photo leak did indeed take his own life. And again, that death is attributable to.

[Anya Kane]

The sloppiness of that death is a tragedy. I, I believe that that man was a victim of circumstances put out there by the defense team. And I don't feel like there's ever really been a full accounting of that. And my heart goes out to that man's family and I, but I, I mean, Carter really spoke from the heart, as you can tell. And, but also like, was just saying kind of like what was on his mind, which ultimately was really helpful because, like. Like, he was very blunt. More blunt than we've seen him, I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

And it was great because, I mean, what does he have? Like, he's out the door. He's. He's just like, I'm going to say what I feel.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said the defense put out a document that put out a narrative that was false, and he remembered when that came out, he was like, damn it. I wish I could respond. But he was bound by the gag order. He said Baldwin and Rosie are responsible for that. And he did use their names a couple of times to indicate his strong displeasure with them. He said that the investigators were human beings and there were mistakes made, but they always did their best and they never intentionally made any mistakes. He spoke very highly of Lieutenant Jerry Holman. He said, I will crawl across hot shards of glass for Jerry Holman. Jerry Holman is not a liar. And I'll say this. We've spoken with a lot of people who know Lieutenant Holman, and they all have given him very high marks for his honesty.

[Anya Kane]

That is true. And I think again and again, when the defense would often. I mean, what Carter's doing here is essentially responding to, you know, how long did this thing go on, Kevin? I'm sorry. Like, I feel like I'm blanking. Like, was it a year? Basically, a year and a half. Two years. Years. Two years. This whole trial. Like, once the. Once the filing started getting nuts, in other words, I guess it kind of goes back to the Frank's memorandum.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I might argue otherwise. I might say that once he started confessing, I might say that the moment things took a turn was the safekeeping thing. Yeah, the safekeeping where this was the motion where they said, oh, he's being kept like a dog in prison of war conditions.

[Anya Kane]

Yes. So for. For as long as that first leg, it. But then even more so, I would say Holman became a target for these defense attorneys. And. And he was essentially just kind of used as their whipping boy publicly. And. And Carter, I think, is standing by his people here. He's saying, no, like, that's not the case. Holman represents the best of the Indiana State Police. He's. He's not what he was made out to be. And again, I think, think for a lot of people following the case closely, we would see those defense filings come up, and everyone would be like, woo. And then it would be like, it would all come crashing down. And usually Holman would be vindicated pretty clearly. But for other people who haven't followed as closely. I mean, it might still be out there. So he's. He's being very forceful. He's standing by his team, and he's saying that people like Holman and. And Holman himself did a great job, and he's proud of them, and they're not liars.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said near the end of his remarks, how about we tone down the rhetoric? How about we start to heal now? Because the rhetoric really has been heated. And let's be blunt, that rhetoric has come from one side. Were there more things you want to say about Carter's remarks?

[Anya Kane]

He did say he had some. I wouldn't. He talked about how, you know, like, it's not group think in the group. Like, he Talked about in April 2019, he and Tobyzenby, the then sheriff of Carroll County. He said, we had a fight in that other room. Not like a fight, but like an argument where we'd be like, we're debating about, I want to do this, you want to do that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He said that's what you would hope. You would hope that people doing something serious would. Would have differences of opinions and work them out and air out different points of view. He said that's how it was. That's not a sign of weakness. That's a sign of strength.

[Anya Kane]

I believe he also stressed to the media, you know, a lot of what was in the filings. What he was essentially saying, in my view, is like, the media was kind of credulously. You know, I say the media, that's sort of like talking about police or any other, like, lawyers, like. Like it's a huge group with a lot of disparate things, and some people are really good, some people not so good. But. But he basically said in this case, he felt the news media was too credulous with the defense. And. And, like, there'd be these filings and everyone would act like, wow, this must be true. And like, his point was basically like. Like, you bought their narrative, but now maybe think about it like, the jury was the only important people in that room, and they didn't buy it. And like, maybe, you know, we need to analyze how we're kind of reporting on stuff. If we're just completely reporting on one side and the public is getting confused by it, and also people are getting harassed over it, you know, and so he was kind of. There was a bit of a. Kind of a pointed thing with the media there, and I can understand that because of his team, if his guys are basically getting, like, death threats over the defense narrative, that's kind of influenced the mainstream media reporting. I would be very frustrated if I was a leader, too, but, you know, I think it wasn't too harsh. And he also did, I think, thank the media to a certain extent or like, at least, you know, like, noted, like, we've been here a long time. Like, some of you have been reporting on it for a long time. So he acknowledged that, but there was a little bit of pointedness there. What did you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Kane]

Did you think that was warranted? Yes, I think before I covered this case, if I heard a superintendent of police say that, I'd be like, whatever. Like, I'd be defensive on behalf of the media. I'd be like, oh, well, you know, blah, blah, blah. But in this case, like, no, I. We. We. We saw the same, I think, trend in reporting. It wasn't everyone, and it wasn't necessarily even, you know, all the time, but it certainly existed. And it mostly came out because the defense didn't care about the gag order.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Time to move on to Nick McCleland.

[Anya Kane]

Let's. Let's do it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nick McClelland was the final speaker. He began by saying, let's have a sigh of relief that this is all over. He thanked law enforcement. He talked about how they had been attacked and called corrupt, evil liars. And he said that despite all of that, law enforcement did everything they could to stand between the abuse and the family, because the law enforcement did all they could to shield the family, the.

[Anya Kane]

Families of the victims.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The victims. He also said, there's no way I could have done this without Stacey Deener and James Luttrell. And also, he said, without Kathy Shank, who discovered that lead, we would not be here. He said he appreciated the support of the family. He also wanted to thank Abby and Libby. Libby because she recorded on her phone the crucial evidence, and Abby because she made sure, as she was dying, to hide the phone.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah, these. These girls played a huge role in solving their own case. He thanked the media for keeping the case at the forefront of public awareness. And he also had a. A request for the media, which was, there are crime scene photos that continue to circulate to this day, and please do not use them. Please do not share them. Please do not publish them. Please do not send them to other people. We. Gosh, that's a part of the story that still haunts me because we were. We were the people who tipped off law enforcement that those photos were out there. I think. I think Becky Patty had gotten, like, word that the. One of the photos, the Trees were out there. And we were sent even more graphic pictures of the bodies, and we notified law enforcement. And I remember. I vividly remember when that was all first happening. I thought we could help nip the leak in the bud so it wouldn't be out there for the families.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We tried very, very hard.

[Anya Kane]

I remember being confident. I remember, like, we could do this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And there were a couple of weeks where we were doing everything we could to shut it down. We were working. We were staying up nights late trying to do everything we could. We weren't talking about it on the podcast, obviously.

[Anya Kane]

We didn't report on it until it was too late. Until it was already.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So that was a frustrating time.

[Anya Kane]

It was frustrating, but it was heartbreaking because I just really thought we could do it. And look, looking back, it's like it had such a negative effect. A man died by suicide. Like, it was just we. We tried so hard, and it just didn't work because, I mean, unbeknownst to us, had been shared much more widely behind the scenes than we were made aware of initially. And. And we've reported on that. I just. It just brings me back. Like, I don't know. It's like I feel so bad. Like, I wish. I wish that. I wish. I wish that it never happened. And the fact that they have to live with that forever. I don't know. It's just. It. It's not fair. It's. It's adding more to their pain. And I would just urge anyone who shares that stuff is a scumbag, in my view, and. And does not have any sort of place in. In polite society and should be publicly shamed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Kane]

So that's. That's what I'll say about that. There's absolutely no reason for those to be out there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then Prosecutor McClelland took some questions. One of them was kind of. It struck me as being kind of silly. I don't have the exact wording here, but basically one of the reporters said, hey, hey, hey, Mr. Prosecutor, wouldn't you agree there's some pretty big holes in this case? And the prosecutor McLean said, no, I'm paraphrasing, but that was the gist of that.

[Anya Kane]

He said, no, I would not concede that. I think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And as someone who we were in this trial every day, and we did a whole episode on the evidence in this trial, and I am here to tell you in the strongest possible words, there are no holes in this case. Richard Allen killed those girls. He is a murderer. He is where he belongs. Yeah, I agree Someone else. That incident with Ms. Oh, I love that.

[Anya Kane]

Somebody asked about this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Someone asked about what the heck was going on with Jennifer. O.J. and he.

[Anya Kane]

A gentleman never. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was like, she was commenting on things that were said during the sentences.

[Anya Kane]

That's such a lawyer answer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Or.

[Anya Kane]

And then he was all like, I'm just gonna leave that as private between us. So, like, what the. So that was not. We were not the only ones. If you. If you watch the live broadcast. That's the context. He.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's all the questions I wanted to talk about. What do you have?

[Anya Kane]

Let me. Let me look. Somebody asked about the appeal, like, are you confident that it's gonna hold up on appeal? And he. He said he's very confident in the verdict and the sentence. And ultimately, he's not the appeals court, though, so all that's up to them. And his office will be ready and available to the. You know, the. What is it? You know, whoever's handling the appeal. Who handles the appeal? It's not. It's not. McClelland won't be handling the appeal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Probably the attorney general.

[Anya Kane]

Attorney general. That's. My words. Were not coming. And I'm just looking. Yes. People just don't. Don't share the pictures. And. Yeah, then it kind of ended.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Could I give a bit of news? Do you want to give a bit of news?

[Anya Kane]

Can I just say. Can we. Can we. Can we. Can I. You said about Allen being guilty. I'm very fully confident that Allen committed these murders. I think he's a heinous excuse for a human being, and he's exactly where he should be. He should never see the light of. He should never enjoy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He should never take another breath as a free man.

[Anya Kane]

No, he should never take another breath as a free man. He should die in prison. That's where he belongs. The. What he did to these families, what he did to these girls, how he basically tortured them before killing them. I have. I have nothing but contempt. I'd like to understand him better and figure out what makes him tick. But as far as sympathy goes, my sympathy is reserved for those girls and their families and the community that he so wronged. And I think anybody at this point that's basically acting like a fanboy over a child killer needs to seek professional help.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Help.

[Anya Kane]

That's just my take.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can I say a bit of news?

[Anya Kane]

Give the news.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we've alluded to this, that now that the gag order has been lifted, it is our intent to try to get interviews on the record with as many people as we can. Who were bound by the gag order. Because obviously we've done our best to report things to you. We've sat through this trial. We told you about all the testimony, but there are things we don't know just because the people involved have not been available to talk. And so we have been able to confirm our first interview. And actually it's an interview with somebody in the Patreon we did the other day, a person. I said, who would you most like us to see interview first? And somebody mentioned this name. Do you want to say who the name is?

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And see if you join the Patreon. We're going to do exactly what you say. We're going to make it happen.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So our Anya is lying. Who's the first interview with?

[Anya Kane]

Our first interview is going to be with Lieutenant Jerry Holman.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so we've confirmed this and we're.

[Anya Kane]

Going to try to do it and then put it together as quickly as possible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As quickly as possible. And I'm. I'm very anal about schedules and stuff, so I just want to clarify to you. We. We're always very proud that we always have an episode out every Tuesday. And so this interview was going to be the Tuesday episode, and it's still gonna count as the Tuesday episode, but we're not gonna make you wait until Tuesday.

[Anya Kane]

So it's like a. It's like a what? It's like a metaphorical. It's like a spiritually. A Tuesday episode.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As soon as we can. We're not gonna make you wait until Tuesday. We're going to try to get the episode out as soon as we can. And that means you're not going to get an episode on Tuesday.

[Anya Kane]

Okay. Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't want people to be upset on Tuesday because they don't have an episode.

[Anya Kane]

I really think we're the only people who care about the Tuesday thing. But I appreciate your. Your persnicketiness. And yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to talk to Lieutenant Holman. I think it'll be really interesting. And yeah, that will be. That will be kind of hopefully the first in several interviews with people who have the firsthand experience.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've approached other people and I'm optimistic. This would not be a one interview series.

[Anya Kane]

That would be pretty embarrassing, though. We do the branding and everything, and it's like this thing. No, I think it'll be. I think it'll be good. And hopefully this will just give even more clarity and just more. You know, we want to talk to people on all sides on all perspectives.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And yeah, we're inviting everybody. I'm sure there's some people who are not likely to accept our invitation, but.

[Anya Kane]

They'Re going to get one, everyone's going to get one. And if people want to, they can do it. And if not that, you know, then that's their choice. But we're going to, we're going to try with everyone. And a lot of people ask us, are you going to try to talk to this person or that point if you can think of them in the case? We're going to try to talk to them. That's kind of just how we're going to approach it. But really excited about this. And so I don't know when this is going to be out, but, you know, we're on it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm thinking before Tuesday. Yeah, which is why I made my remarks.

[Anya Kane]

Which is why you made your confusing and very detailed remarks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

See, if I'm listening to a podcast, I know they do like an episode in a certain day. I'm gonna be disappointed if I show up on that day and it's not gonna be there.

[Anya Kane]

I think it's. I think that's, I think that's true. We do a lot of episodes though, so I think people are used to kind of us being a little all over the place.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There have been times we do like three episodes a week usually, and there have been times when we did all three episodes on a Monday and Tuesday and we don't release another episode to the following week.

[Anya Kane]

Oh yeah, I remember.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then by like Thursday or Friday, people are saying, what happened to Kevin and Anya? Are they dead?

[Anya Kane]

Kevin and Anya are dead in a ditch somewhere or the murder sheet's done for now. Haha. And it' no, we just, you know, we're just, we're just trying our best here. But. Yeah. Anything else to add with that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I think that's it.

[Anya Kane]

I think we got it. All right. Thanks everyone for listening. Feels kind of like a end of an era here, but of course, you know, I'm. There'll be, there'll be things to cover with appeals and whatnot, and hopefully some people to interview so can expect more deli coverage in, in that respect. And in the meantime, you know, we'll be covering other cases as well. But we really appreciate your patience and support as, as you've listened to us on this and we're really humbled by that and just want to just thank you as audience members for trusting us with your time and trusting the information that we provide you and Just it means a lot to us. So thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Kane]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Kane]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So this holiday season, we want to sincerely thank our latest sponsor, Quince. This is a wonderful company that's all about making the finer things in life really accessible for everybody. That means Italian leather handbags, that means gold jewelry and items. But, but it especially means their wonderful line of Mongolian cashmere products. So sweaters, things like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And not just, as you so astutely noted, not just that there are other things they offer. Like, you know, for many years I thought, well, wouldn't it be fun to dress like Colonel Hogan from Hogan's Heroes? He always wears this bomber jacket. But you go to these stores, you go to these online marketplaces, and these bomber jackets, ridiculously high price because everybody wants to look like Colonel Hogan. But Quince offers that at an affordable price.

[Anya Kane]

Yeah. And they even threw in some quirky side characters to help you dig holes in the yard, which has frankly been pretty inconvenient for, for our neighbors and, and me. But I'm glad you're having a good time. So that was your goal. And I'm curious because we both got to select some Quint's products to, to purchase. And your goal was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you're not. I'm not saying that if you buy this great jacket, you're going to look like a character from a TV show that maybe you haven't even watched. You're just going to look good because he was a charming character.

[Anya Kane]

He was a charming character and he had a Good fashion sense. So, I mean, I think you. I'm just fascinated by the way your mind works, I guess. But no, I think you look really cute in that bomber jacket. I really like it on you. I was, I was proud of you for getting it because I think, you know, you kind of. You have your kind of Kevin uniform, and this is a bit different, but I think it was so nice and it's such a good price that you kind of were like, I can't, can't say no to that one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So what TV characters were you trying to emulate with your cashmere sweater?

[Anya Kane]

None. I wasn't trying to emulate anyone, but I was. I really like sweaters, and so I consider myself. I wouldn't say I'm a sweater connoisseur. You know, I've never really had, like, a cashmere sweater. I mean, that's something I associate with being, like, very luxurious, very fancy. So I got two of their sweaters, and they are so nice. We actually, I wore one when we went to get dinner with our friends the other night. We. I, I've kind of worn it a lot ever since. They're both really cute. And also, you know, one thing with sweaters is sometimes if you're just wearing them and you're not wearing, like, an undershirt or something, they can kind of get scratchy. These ones are so soft. They feel so good on your skin. There's, like, no issues with that. And they're just very. They just feel a little bit like quiet luxury, a little fancy. And that. That's really nice. And I think they, for me, they go with a lot of different things in my wardrobe. So it's like, I, I appreciate that. They can kind of be like a bit of a. A staple there. For me, I'm not. It's, you know, like, everyone, everyone's had a thing where they're like, I'm gonna wear this all the time, and then you don't. And, like, it doesn't go with anything. So, like, what are you doing? But these are the opposite of that. They kind of go with everything. For Murder Sheet listeners, there is a very special deal gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag bag. Go to Quince. Com msheet for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I N C E Com msheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince. Com msheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's a great deal.

[Anya Kane]

It really is.