The Devil's Den Murders: Who Is Andrew James McGann?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Devil's Den Murders: Who Is Andrew James McGann?

Introduction

In the August 12, 2025 episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the chilling case of the Devil's Den Murders in Arkansas. This episode provides an in-depth exploration of the crime, the perpetrator Andrew James McGann, and the ripple effects on the community. Through a compelling interview with Katie, McGann's former hairdresser, the hosts shed light on the man behind the heinous acts, uncovering subtle red flags and the unsettling reality of concealed dangers within seemingly ordinary individuals.

Overview of the Devil's Den Murders

The episode begins with a harrowing account of the tragic events that unfolded on July 26, 2025, when Clinton David Brink (43) and Kristen Amanda Brink (41) were brutally murdered while hiking with their two young daughters in Devil's Den State Park, Arkansas. The attack left the young girls orphaned, marking the case as one of profound national distress. Early reports suggested that Kristen bravely managed to escape with her daughters before returning to confront the assailant, resulting in her own loss.

The Arrest of Andrew James McGann

On July 30, 2025, authorities apprehended Andrew James McGann, a 28-year-old teacher, at a hairdresser's in Springdale, Arkansas. McGann's arrest came with chilling details:

"He has reportedly confessed to the murders," [00:28] Áine Cain explains.

McGann's background as an educator raised immediate questions:

"How does a guy go from being a teacher... to doing something so horrible?" [02:45] Kevin Greenlee remarks.

Insights from Katie: McGann's Former Hairdresser

To gain a deeper understanding of McGann's personality and possible warning signs, Murder Sheet interviews Katie, McGann's former hairstylist from Tulsa, Oklahoma. Katie provides a nuanced portrayal of McGann:

• Early Interactions and Personality: McGann was initially reserved but became more open over time. Katie notes:

  "He was definitely a little strange... but once he got comfortable, he was very forthcoming." [09:37]

• Obsessive Attention to Hair: McGann's meticulousness about his hair was a notable trait:

  "He was very particular about his hair... It was either very straight or his natural wild curl." [25:49]

• Interactions and Unsettling Behavior: Katie recounts McGann's inappropriate comments towards her daughter:

  "He would comment about how much of a badass he thought a girl playing that sport would be." [13:53]

  Additionally, McGann's interactions with children raised eyebrows:

  "He would say inappropriate things to the girls... like 'hot spicy monkey' in Spanish." [15:57]

• Suspicious Actions: An incident that stood out was McGann arriving unannounced at the salon late at night:

  "He just popped in without an appointment... it was a little bit weird." [22:23]

Community Feedback and Red Flags

Katie discusses the broader community's perception of McGann:

"People were uncomfortable with a male elementary school teacher interacting more with girls." [30:27]

Red flags included:

• Inappropriate Language: McGann's use of playful yet inappropriate phrases with young girls.
• Overly Dedicated to Sports: His intense involvement in starting a running club and pushing students beyond typical activities.
• Rapid Career Moves: Transitioning from a large school district in Broken Arrow to a smaller one in Sand Springs, Arkansas, which raised questions about his motives despite promises of higher pay.

Impact on the Community

The revelations about McGann's actions have left the community reeling:

"People now are much more weary... thinking about the safety of their children in schools." [40:02]

The case has sparked discussions on:

• Background Checks and Teacher Screening: Evaluating the efficacy of existing measures to prevent such tragedies.
• Community Vigilance: Encouraging vigilance even when individuals appear outwardly normal and trustworthy.

Reflections and Conclusions

Áine and Kevin reflect on the perplexing nature of the case:

"People who do horrible things are still people... understanding the red flags can help us comprehend why such tragedies occur." [48:31]

The episode underscores the unsettling reality that danger can lurk beneath seemingly ordinary exteriors. Through Katie's insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of McGann's dual life as a dedicated teacher and a perpetrator capable of unimaginable violence.

Final Thoughts

The Devil's Den Murders episode of Murder Sheet offers a comprehensive examination of a devastating crime and its perpetrator. By intertwining personal testimonies with professional analysis, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee provide listeners with a thorough and empathetic exploration of the case, highlighting the importance of community awareness and the complexities of human behavior.

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Note: All timestamps correspond to the podcast transcript provided.

Transcript

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[Katie]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a terrible case.

[Anya Cain]

And now two kids are orphaned. It's heinous. So recently on. On July 30, 2025, a man was arrested in this case. He was arrested at a business in Springdale, Arkansas, and his name turns out to be Andrew James McGann. He's 28, and horrifyingly, he is a teacher. He has a lot of experience teaching in Oklahoma and was coming to Arkansas to get a new teaching job. So that is pretty scary. So people want to know, how does this happen? How does a guy go from being a teacher where you have to have all these background checks and whatnot, to doing something so horrible? And that's still not clear. We do know that this man has apparently confessed to the murders. We do know that he was, interestingly enough, arrested at a hairdresser's. That's going to be important in this conversation we're about to have today because we actually were able to talk with someone who knew him, however briefly, before all this happened. And we were able to verify that this person knew him and who. Our guest today is a wonderful lady named Katie. And she was actually his hairdresser back when he was in Oklahoma. So she got a few details about him. I mean, I'm sure you've had this, Kevin, at a barber shop, but you kind of end up talking a little bit. You do, right? You kind of chat. And this is what happened here. And she's gonna give us some insights into what she gleaned about his personality, interests, things like that, and also some controvers that followed him, you know, and have certainly come out a lot louder since all this happened about his teaching in Oklahoma and some concerns that parents had there. But we're going to get all into that today. We just always find it helpful in situations like this where even if someone's not throwing up a lot of red flags, there can still be little things that are deserving of scrutiny later or that you might want to look at to just try to understand the person at the center of such a horrific case more.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

So let's get into it. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Devil's Den Murders. Who is Andrew James McGann? It. So first of all, Katie, thank you so much for talking to us. We really appreciate it.

[Katie]

Thanks for having me.

[Anya Cain]

So I guess maybe can you just tell us whatever details about yourself that you're comfortable sharing and just sort of just give us a little background about yourself here?

[Katie]

I am a hair stylist here in Tulsa and have been out here for the last 22 years, so have, you know, a long, long standing career as their stylist. Enjoy every second. I'm a mom. I, you know, do all the, do all the mom things. Work full time, married and living the dream.

[Anya Cain]

Amazing. And, and so we're talking to you because you had this really sort of bizarre connection to this really high profile crime case that is sort of in the news right now. And I'm just. Can you just give us sort of the nutshell version of what your tie is to this case that happened out of Arkansas, which of course saw a married couple, the Brinks, sort of get murdered in this horrible fashion while out for a walk in this state park?

[Katie]

Yes. So as a hairstylist, I had a referral come my way and it ended up being Andrew McGann. And so I started doing his hair in February of 2024.

[Anya Cain]

So people are probably wondering, wait, hair Andrew McGann? Is this the same hairstylist that, you know, was there when he was actually arrested?

[Katie]

No, I am in Tulsa. And that happened in Springdale, Arkansas. Two hours away.

[Anya Cain]

Two hours away. So how did that feel, seeing that he was arrested in a setting where, you know, that would be in the setting that you would have known him from?

[Katie]

Very strange. And the irony of it all with him being so particular about his hair and being arrested halfway through a haircut? I, it, I just can't even with the whole situation.

[Anya Cain]

That's freaky. I'm sure that was kind of a.

[Katie]

Scary feeling seeing that it was, it was a very strange, wild, like, surreal situation because after doing his hair a few times over the last year and a half, I was alone with him in the salon every single time I Did his hair and obviously never had any, you know, concern, especially with him being a referral. And I mean, I, you know, there was really no reason for me to have any concern about him. He never did anything in my presence, you know, that would have made me question having him come to the salon when I knew I would be there by myself later at night. But, yeah, it was a very strange experience watching him get arrested like that on all of, like, the major, you know, networks, especially with it only being two hours away, like, it's everywhere out here being reported on.

[Anya Cain]

So here's a question for you. I'm sure a lot of people will be wondering this. This guy has been arrested and has seemingly confessed to a pretty heinous crime. What was he like as a client? What did you kind of gleanings did you get about his personality?

[Katie]

He was definitely a little strange. He originally contacted me wanting to get a Brazilian blowout, which is a moving keratin treatment for hair. Our hair is made out of keratin, and so it's infusing extra keratin into your hair, which takes away, like, the frizziness and some of the curl, some of the texture. It. It pretty much makes it easier to be styled. I only did that service once on him. The other times I saw him were for just haircuts. But the feedback that I got from him, he said that he loved it for his hair because he liked to wear it both curly and straight, and so it made styling a lot easier. And he was actually the first guy that I was going to be performing that treatment on. And so I thought, you know, maybe he was this, you know, going to come in with this, like, these long, luscious, flowing locks, like, rocker style or something. And that clearly was not the case. He has just very thick, curly mop top. You know, coarse, long hair on the top, but short on the sides in the back. But he was fairly quiet at first. I really had to do a lot of the talking and, like, kind of pulling some of the information out of him. But then once he got, I guess, a little bit more comfortable with me, I mean, he never had any problem answering any of my questions. And that treatment is a fairly long service. I was with him for, like, two and a half, three hours, right out the gate for the first time I met him. When you're with somebody for, you know, three hours, just meeting him, like, I was asking all the questions about his life and what he did. And I knew a little bit just because of who the referral had Come from, but obviously wanted, you know, keep the conversation going and pull some details out of him, but if I could.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, interesting. And. And you said pull details out of him. Tell me about how that went. Were you able to kind of get to know him a little bit better?

[Katie]

After probably the first, like, 45 minutes to an hour, he was freely answering any questions that I had. Told me that he was a teacher at Broken Arrow Public schools, which I. I live in Broken Arrow, so if my kids were still in public school. School, that's where they started. They don't go there anymore, but that's the district that we would be in. And I have quite a few ties to Broken Arrow schools. And so it's been very interesting. Now, being on this end of it and talking directly to people that I'm close with that directly worked with him in the school system, and having all of this go down has definitely been obviously very shocking to everyone.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I imagine that absolutely is shocking. Especially someone dealing, you know, someone around kids. Right, right. So, you know, at these sessions, did he give you any sort of, you know, details other than his sort of profession? Like, did he talk about his personal life at all?

[Katie]

He talked a little bit about growing up. I'm pretty sure. He told me he grew up and graduated school around the Chicago area. And with me being from Cleveland, we kind of strap up that conversation. You know, it's not super far away from each other, that kind of, you know, Midwestern, Northeastern, you know, situation. So just kind of chatted about that a little bit and growing up in similar, you know, situations and backgrounds and that type of thing. He talked a lot about the running club he had started at the elementary school at Broken Arrow that he was teaching at. I asked if there was a wife or a girlfriend or any kids, and he said no to all of that. He did comment. I have a picture on my workstation of my kids, and he did comment about the sport that they play. And I have a son and a daughter. Both are teenagers. And he especially commented on how he thought it was awesome that my daughter played as well as my son. And so didn't really. Didn't really have much to say about my son, but definitely pointed out multiple times about how much of a badass he thought a girl playing that sport would be.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, that's kind of odd. So, like, he was singling out the girl versus okay, yes.

[Katie]

Which apparently now seems to be a common theme that I'm hearing.

[Anya Cain]

Right. I can see how at the time, that might seem kind of innocuous and then looking back in this context, it's.

[Katie]

Like, oh, especially because it's the two of them together in their gear for the same sport. And my son is older than my daughter and so usually people point that out, you know what I mean? But it is. She is a minority being a girl in that sport. I'm kind of reluctant to say what the sport is because it's not a huge. A huge market in town for that and people could definitely probably single me out. He. But he was very like, he thought it was really cool that I would have a daughter that played that and was. It was really good at it.

[Anya Cain]

Gosh, I. That. So I'm so sorry. I'm like that. That must. I'm.

[Katie]

This.

[Anya Cain]

That must be really creepy to look back on.

[Katie]

It is definitely a very strange feeling that, you know, obviously now knowing some of the stories that I know from the people that I'm connected to that worked with him at the same school site and hearing some of those stories and not to get off on a little bit of a tangent, but talking to my niece the other day, who her best friend was in his fifth grade classroom at Spring Creek here in Broken Arrow, and he would comment to a few of the girls quite often. I don't remember the exact saying, but he would say it in Spanish, but it translated to like hot spicy monkey or something. And that was a very typical saying that he would use when talking to some of the girls in his classroom.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my gosh. And wow. And I wanna. I do wanna get into some of those things that you've heard from the wider community since this has all gone down in a moment.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

In. In the meantime, would he ever talk about, like dating anybody or like, you know, is like. Is like. Is personal life in that way or like an interest in adult women?

[Katie]

Nope. Nothing. Like, anytime I asked about a potential girlfriend or if he had been dating anybody, it was always just not a brushing me off. Like, I don't want to talk about it. No, but it was just like a. No, no, no interest in anyone right now. Like, just would totally shut that down.

[Anya Cain]

No adult girlfriends, no adult boyfriends. Nothing like that. Where it's like an adult interested in another adult right now.

[Katie]

Not that he ever told me about.

[Anya Cain]

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[Katie]

Yeah. So I actually asked him for some current photos of his hair ahead of that Brazilian blowout appointment because I wanted to know what I was going to be working with. Because if this guy that has, you know, little short, doubly hair thinks that he needs a Brazilian blowout, clearly I would be like, sir, you don't, you know, you don't need that service. Like, that's not going to do much for you. So I wanted to know what I was going to be working with. And so he sent me some selfies. And they are very angry face selfies. And I even commented to him when he came in that first time, not right out the gate, but like after he had warmed up a little bit and we had been talking, I was like, man, why? Why so angry in your selfies? And he just kind of chuckled and said, oh, I just don't photograph well. And I was like, okay, all right. Like, but they are definitely very like purse lip, you know, furrowed brow selfies.

[Anya Cain]

Was he, I guess was like, did he seem like an angry or intense person in person?

[Katie]

No, not at all. Like, I never got any, like, hint of like a rager or, or just an angry person in general. Like, he seemed very. He kind of sauntered in, like when he walked, it was nothing like aggressive coming at you ever. The only time I ever really even saw him, like, move quick was the last time I did his hair when he kind of came rushing up to the front door of my salon. But other than that, like, he kind of walked a lot. Like in that salon video when he got arrested, like, the hands in his pockets, you know, just kind of strolling, like. And he never said anything that was aggressive. He never told me any stories about like, being really angry about anything or getting worked up. You know, he was just kind of a very flat, not really much emotion in any of his storytelling or anything.

[Anya Cain]

So this is a weird question and it's like, obviously know we all have instincts about people, right? And that doesn't necessarily mean anything. It's just more about a curiosity. Like, did he creep you out? Like, what. Did you get a creep factor from him where you're kind of like or what did he seem pretty like? You didn't really get that?

[Katie]

I, I did not get that at all. The only time I felt like it was a little bit strange was at the last appointment when I saw him where he had clearly waited because I, I was again at the salon by myself and I was letting my last client of the night out and unlocking the door to let her out when he kind of came run, you know, rushing up to the door and he did not have an appointment. And this is a very appointment based type salon. Like we are not a walk in salon. Everybody that I work with is well established. We've all been doing it for a really long time. We're only there working when we have appointments. So it's a pretty, it's not a set schedule because you know, we're our own business owner so we do we schedule ourselves however we want to. So that was the only time that I was like, well that's a little bit weird because he's always made an appointment. It, he's never just shown up and been like, oh, I just assumed you'd be able to do my hair, you know, especially at like 8:30 at night. So that was the only time that for a second I felt a little bit off about it. But I let him in and relocked the door behind me so nobody else could come in and cut his hair and he left and that was it. That was the last time I saw him. And that was probably. That was like spring breakish time this year.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Okay. Wow, that is, that is interesting.

[Katie]

Yeah. So I'm like, he clearly knows at that point, like how my, how I run my business and how my appointment situation, you know, works. Like I'm not just, I'm not ever just sitting up at the salon hoping and praying I'm gonna have a walk in. Like I am consistently booked and people make appointments and you know what I mean? Like that's how it runs. And so for him to just you know, like wait, see me come unlock the door and just be like, oh, I'm. I was just, you know, I was just over here on the side of town and thought I'd pop in and see if you could just squeeze me in real quick. And it's again like 8, it was probably 8:30, 8,45ish at night. Like not, you know, not just middle of the day, like, oh, hey, you know, I'm off on my lunch break, could you just give me a quick little haircut? You know, so that was really the Only weird little bit. But again, I, you know, I agreed to go ahead and put him, you know, add him on to the end of my day and gave him a haircut and he went on his way and that was it. He added me as a Venmo friend. I saw that the other day and I was like, oh my God, I'm the only non family member in his Venmo friends. There's four people, I'm the fourth. The other three are family. And I'm like, oh God, like I gotta figure out how to get that out, like how to get that off, you know, unfriend, unfriend. But I'm like to add me like your hairstylist that you don't really have the long term, you know, long standing relationship with odd and you've got family member, family member, family member, me. That's it.

[Anya Cain]

Gosh, like here's a weird question. You know, some people are, you know, men and women are very into keeping up their hair and their appearance and whatnot. Others aren't so much. Was he a guy who was very into doing stuff around his hair? Was he into like kind of other sets of grooming or like keeping up his appearance? Or was it mostly just the hair?

[Katie]

As far as I know, it was just his hair. Like he never, he, he would come in with like a little tiny bit of baby like facial hair. But I'm talking like, you know, the five o' clock shadow type situation. He definitely didn't have like a perfectly manicured beard or mustache, you know, or anything like that. I never saw him. He was pretty clean shaven or just a little tiny bit of stubble. But he kind of had some wild eyebrows that I had asked him once if he wanted me to trim. You know, just like kind of trim up the eyebrows. And he was like, meh, like he was not concerned at all about that. And I was like, okay, like, just thought I'd offer. But he was very particular about his hair. He did not want hardly anything ever cut off of that top. Like how you saw it in like the booking photos and all that kind of stuff. Like it was either flat iron, very strangely straight and then kind of parted in the middle, but like straight out. Like, not like, not like the bowl, you know, cut where it kind of like round, it's like parted in the middle and then kind of round to the sides. It would just be like flat iron, straightforward parted. Just that little bit in the front in the middle and then it just stick it out straight. And so it was either like that, or it was just his natural wild curl, that mop, you know, the long shaggy or mop top, but then pretty tight and short on this back and sides.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. So he had. He had specific ideas about the hair, but it wasn't like he was one of those people who's like, very into you know, the fashion or anything like that?

[Katie]

No, no. Like how you saw him in that salon footage where he's in, like, those khakis and the polo. Like, that's what I saw him in the majority of the time. One time he came in and his running club clothes. So he had on, like the shorts and, you know, just a regular T shirt and like, athletic clothes. But the majority of the time I saw him in those just plain old khaki pants and untucked polo. Like, he definitely was no fashionista.

[Anya Cain]

You know, this is where I want to get into the kind of broader thing, because you're part of this community where this guy was. And I'm sure people been talking now. So what have you been hearing?

[Katie]

Oh, yeah, Especially working in a salon, we get lots of talking and we get to talk to lots of people. And it has definitely been a hot topic. I've heard, because of the situation with who else comes into our salon. Obviously there are. There's a lot of feedback from that group of, you know, never would have seen this coming. He, I guess, did have a little bit of a fiery temper sometimes, but it was like a short fuse kind of anger about something. But then it was over pretty quick. Like, I haven't had anybody talk about him, just like raging hardcore, you know, about anything and having a meltdown or any of that kind of thing. But then from people who had interactions with him, with either kids in his class or work, working with him at the school. Parents. One of my really good friends, actually her son begged my friend to Let him join Mr. McGann's running club. And my friend was like, no. Like, I just don't have great vibes. It's after school. Like, I don't want to leave you there. You're only in fifth grade. I just don't feel great about that. Like, we're not going to do that. We have plenty of activities after school as it is. And she just was not letting it happen. And he was so mad at his mom for a while because he. His. I think a lot of his football buddies were doing it, and so he felt like he was missing out on training. He really thought he should be out there, you know, in this running club doing the training to help him in his sport. And so definitely getting some of that feedback where people were I think, just a little bit generally uncomfortable with an elementary male teacher. I think everybody's just so much more used to having women in that role that they were kind of just a little standoffish anyway just because he was a man with that age group. But what really got me was the whole speaking in Spanish, saying inappropriate things to the girl, you know, that I'm like, whoa, that is, you know, something that I feel like was wild hear and the fact that nobody ever actually reported that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Any of the higher ups, like, nobody did anything about it. They just kind of let it happen. I have heard a lot too, that he was labeled the hot, sweaty recess guy, like, because he would actually go out to recess with the kids and like, play hardcore, like, with what all of the kids were doing. So, like that he'd come back in, you know, from recess. And it's hot in Oklahoma, like at, you know, the. In April and May when we're getting towards the end of the school year and at the beginning of the school year too, like, you know, there we have a lot of high 90s, you know, 100 degree days. And he would just go out there and play tag and just run around like a wild man with the kids, whatever they were doing. And so he got the hot, sweaty recess, like, teacher label.

[Anya Cain]

You know, I don't want to sound, you know, too paranoid or anything. Right. Because like, you want a teacher to be engaged with their students and. And also, you know, you want, like, you want there to be male elementary school teachers. Like, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. So I understand where, like there's the know, okay, who's this guy? But like, but it really does sound like there were some red flags with him, especially the focus on the girls.

[Katie]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

That's weird.

[Katie]

Yeah. Like, he definitely majority of the time was surrounded by the girls in the classroom. But I know there were quite a few boys that had joined his running club too. Like, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to start this running club and it's only girls allowed or anything, you know, like, it definitely wasn't that situation. But especially in the classroom, I know that he definitely was much more interactive with the girls.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, that's. That's weird. That's a red. That's a huge red flag. And. And so it sounds like there were these kind of things. Not everything was necessarily getting reported officially or anything like that. It was kind Of a bit of a se. Not a secret, but just kind of under the radar. Do you know this? Like, how did he leave? You know, the circumstances of that.

[Katie]

So I don't know if there was an. If there was anything going on, like, between him and the school system. He told me at one of his appointments towards the end of me seeing him that he was planning on moving on to Arkansas to get higher pay. So I know he went from Broken Arrow to Sand Springs, which is another, like, burb of Tulsa in between the two. Like, between him at Broken Arrow and then going to Springdale. I didn't think twice about it after I didn't see him from pretty much spring break on because I figured, oh, he told me he was planning on going to Arkansas to try to get higher pay. So I just assumed, yeah, he's. He's moved on and I'm sure went to Arkansas and is working there now and just never even really thought anything else of it. There definitely wasn't any. Like, a lot of the seasoned teachers I've talked to that have had something to say about it. They thought it was very strange to be only a few years into your career and already on your fourth district. But, you know, if we all know, like, teachers probably aren't making amazing pay in any, you know, district, and Broken Arrow out here was a. It is a huge school district. I think we're actually like the biggest in the whole state of Oklahoma right now. So I was a little shocked when he went from that to Sand Springs because it is a much smaller. I mean, I don't know the actual size comparison, but obviously compared to the top, you know, biggest school district in the whole state of Oklahoma to a much, much, much, much smaller district like Sand Springs is a huge jump. So I thought that was a little bit weird because I'm like, well, I'm. I'm pretty certain that Sand Springs is not going to be paying more, you know, than Broken Arrow would have been. But then when I heard that he was in Springdale, I was like, okay, that makes sense. Like, I think that's kind of a known thing in our teacher community. Like, apparently Arkansas just pays better. So a lot of teachers have transferred and, like, finished out their teaching careers in Arkansas because it's a better retirement payout, I guess. So. I mean, again, didn't really think all that much of it. Just thought that the situation for Broken Arrow to Sand Springs was a little bit weird because I would assume that that would be less pay than he would have been getting at Broken Arrow. So I thought that jump was just a little weird.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I can. I can understand why. Were there other things he told you about, like possibly going to Arkansas or anything like he's excited about or anything like that?

[Katie]

No, not really. Like, he just made it sound like he was in search of higher pay and was willing to move out of state if he could find that somewhere. And with Springdale being. I don't even know if it's a full two hours away from us. It's like probably an hour and 45 minutes. So having family in Tulsa and, you know, going and working in Springdale, like, that's a super close commute back for visits and, you know, not. Not way out of the way where. Oh, you know, now I'm gonna have a ton of travel time back to family if I want to visit, you know, any of that kind of stuff. So he just made it sound like it's close and they'll pay me more, so that's probably what I'll do.

[Anya Cain]

Were there any other interests he ever talked with you about, like, hiking or, you know, just anything like that?

[Katie]

Only that he was an avid runner. He didn't really seem. He liked cats, he liked dogs. Okay. And he really liked running.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. Interesting.

[Katie]

And, yeah, and I think he, he, he would run trails. We have a spot around town called Turkey Mountain that is. I've never been to Devil's Den State park, but I think t our Turkey Mountain would be like a smaller scale version of that. And he would talk about going there to run the trails a lot and just running a lot in general. Like, he just talked about how that was like, his sport. He was an avid, very avid runner.

[Anya Cain]

Gosh, that's. That's so. I mean, that's interesting. And it's like, I. Did he ever talk about like, like, did he run in high school or something?

[Katie]

I don't know. He really didn't say much about, like, where he graduated from high school other than it was around the Chicago area, I'm pretty sure is what he told me, but didn't really go into any detail about, like, being super sporty when he was in school or really loving anything else. I. He'd never mentioned that he was on the track team to me growing up or any of that. So I don't know if that came later in life. And it's just a hobby he picked up and just took off with it. But he definitely made it very clear that he liked to run.

[Anya Cain]

Is there anything else about him that has stood out to you now? That this kind of horrific story that he's involved with has come out.

[Katie]

Really, I guess all that, I mean, the whole situation is just absolutely mind blowing and crazy. But looking at his booking photo compared to the selfies he sent me was really shocking to me because it. Seeing him around spring break time, like, that was not that long ago and, and he definitely did not look like he looks now in his arrest and like booking photo. So I just would love to know what the heck happened in these few months to really make him look like. He looked like his, you know, face looked much thinner than the last time I saw him. And like, his eyes were a lot more sunken and like, just looked like rough. I mean, I guess is really the only way to like, so angry and so rough. Like he looked angry obviously in those selfies he sent me originally, but not like, I mean, obviously I'm looking at this picture now in different contexts, so I guess maybe that can, you know, give you a different feel. But I did a side by side of his booking photo with the selfie he sent me and I was just like, what the heck happened?

[Anya Cain]

Gosh, I. I imagine because it's like, you know, like you're seeing maybe parts of this. Are you seeing kind of like maybe the start of it, but you're not seeing all this stuff that develops later on, right?

[Katie]

Yeah. I would love to know what happened in those few months in between because. Well, it definitely didn't look like that just a couple of months ago.

[Anya Cain]

Was there any, like, is there any discussion in the community, like, with anyone? Has anyone like in your community, like, kept in touch with him or anything? Or is there anything like that where people are like, oh my gosh, like, we heard something was going on?

[Katie]

No, like, not, not anybody keeping up with him that I know directly. Since all of this has gone down.

[Anya Cain]

How would you say this has impacted your community? I mean, obviously it's. It's scary having someone be accused of something like this and have been a teacher in dealing with kids in this community.

[Katie]

Yeah, people are definitely, I think, much more weary now as like, you know, you think you're sending your kid to school and like, super safe place, you know, the people that are teaching them, you assume, really love dealing with kids and are really there to better the kids that are in their classrooms and all that kind of stuff. And then to see that he could do what he did in front of kids not far off from the ages that he's teaching is just mind blowing.

[Anya Cain]

I do want to ask, do you remember where you were when you, I guess, heard about the case in the first place, prior to any sort of arrest, and then where you were and what your memory is of hearing about. It's this guy.

[Katie]

I actually heard from a client. I had just come back from Vegas, and it was my first client after literally getting off the plane and hitting the ground running. And she was like, oh, man, I know you've been in Vegas, but, like, have you heard about any of this stuff. Stuff going on? Because at this point, he hadn't been caught yet. And I was like, well, I heard a little bit about it, but, like, I literally haven't had a spare moment to even look into any of the local happenings, you know, like, hadn't watched the news, hadn't even been really on social media much at that point. And she was like, yeah, it's crazy. Like, they're. You know, there's like, this manhunt and, you know, it's obviously not that far away from us. He could be anywhere. And I admittedly am a huge lover, if that doesn't make me sound super creepy fan of true crime. And so when things like that happen close by, my clients are like, oh, my gosh, what's going on? Like, tell me the scoop. I know you follow all this stuff, you know, and so this one I actually hadn't gotten a chance to even dive into yet. And they're telling me about it, and so then I kind of forgot about it. I had a super busy week, and it was Thursday, and I was at the salon and I was waiting on a client and just popped open Facebook and did a little scroll. And one of our local news stations was reporting on it, and I was like, oh, I need to. This is the one I needed to check into. Let me click on this story. And I click on it, and up pops his picture and his booking photo. And I about passed out right there. Like, could not even believe what I was seeing. Even, like, quickly scrolled through the article to be like, okay, maybe that's just somebody who looks a lot like him, you know, like, let me find the name. Let me. Let me see. And there was his name. And I was just in complete shock.

[Anya Cain]

Goodness gracious. I imagine. And also, you're not creepy. You're a woman after my own heart. So, you know, nothing wrong with being interested in true crime and being the person who's always like, yep, I know that case.

[Katie]

I know. And it's pretty funny because my clients now who know the situation are like, oh, my God, of all the people you Know, like, of all the people to have any type of connection to this type of situation, and it's you. And I'm like, I know, guys. I don't know what's going on. It's wild. It's just wild.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it really, really is. And it's just. It's just so creepy. I just. My heart breaks for these kids survived this horrible situation.

[Katie]

Oh, my gosh.

[Anya Cain]

And to have it be a teacher is just so shocking.

[Katie]

I know. Like, I feel obviously for their, you know, the kids and their family and his family and all of the people, you know, that had any part in any of their lives. I. I just don't even know how you bounce back from that. Especially for those girls.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention? You think it's important for people to know or understand this situation?

[Katie]

No, I think we pretty well covered everything. I mean, it's. It's just definitely one of those situations where you. I feel like we hear about all the time. Completely unsuspecting, seemingly completely normal person turns out to be a double murderer. Like, what?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I.

[Katie]

Completely unexpected. Yeah. Like never in a million years would I have ever picked out like, oh, yeah, he's going to be the one to do something so horrific such as that. Never.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. I mean, here's the thing. I. I know it's a cliche and people roll their eyes in crime, in crime stories where it's like, use quiet. No. You know, like, he didn't show any red. Red flags. But some people just don't. They're not. It. Some people are going to show a ton of red flags. Other people, they're just not. Or there's going to be stuff that looks bad in hindsight, but nothing that would have been like a huge alarm at the time.

[Katie]

No. Yeah, that's the thing. Like, there are these creepy instances in the classroom with some of the kids and, you know, like that type of thing. But I mean, never anything that I experienced directly with him that would have made me feel like, I'm not going to book this dude when I'm going to be by myself at the salon late at night anymore. You know, never, never thought twice about just the two of us being in there and, you know, just complete shock over the whole situation.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. I can imagine. And yeah, and it's also, like, sometimes it takes something like this for the incidents that are a bit more creepy to kind of come out and people find each other and connect and, oh, this is what happened with our Class, and, oh, we were creeped out for these students. Like, things like that, like, almost kind of spill out of the woodwork once something happens.

[Katie]

Right. But, yeah, I mean, especially with a teacher, you want to think the best of who's teaching your kids. Right. So I feel like it's easy to brush off, like, a weird little tidbit here and there, and you're just kind of like, oh, it's kind of weird, but whatever. I mean, he's a teacher. They have to go through background checks. Not, you know, gonna worry too much about it, like, so he's a little different with his personality, you know, nothing to go crazy about. You know, don't sound the alarm.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Katie]

You know, over one little bit in peace, you know, every now and again. But I feel like that that tide's probably gonna change after all of this has happened.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. It's gonna make people more paranoid, understandably.

[Katie]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Gosh. Well, listen, Katie, it's been delightful to talk to you. Thank you for sharing your sort of interaction with this really bizarre and troubling story. We really appreciate getting sort of those on the ground insights from people who kind of actually do bump up against these cases. You know, you're not in the middle of it, but you're one of those people who kind of saw some of this and were able to give some insights into this guy's personality.

[Katie]

For sure. Yeah. Thanks for having me. And I love talking it out, and I hope we all can get a little, you know, more insight into what the heck happened. And I hope that those. Their daughters can, you know, make a. I don't want to say recovery, because that. I don't know how you would ever recover from that, but hopefully they. Their family can band together and help get them through.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Really well said. Yeah. It's just interesting, and I think it's just so fascinating. He got arrested at the hairdressers, and he's.

[Katie]

That I kind of felt was like, the biggest, just knowing how particular he is about his hair. And I'm like, oh, man. Like. Like. I mean, can you call that karma? Like, that's not anything that could ever balance out the crazy, you know, shit he did. But of all the time. Like, now you, sir, have to go to jail with half of a freaking haircut.

[Anya Cain]

Karma.

[Katie]

I love it. I mean, I just. I just love that that is the situation he was put in, because I hope he is just dying in there with his half of a haircut, you know, so.

[Anya Cain]

Too. Have fun with your carrot and lack of keratin. Treatments, dude, right?

[Katie]

You're gonna be extra frizzy from here on out, sir.

[Anya Cain]

Good God. Oh, gosh. Well, listen, I'll. I'll let you get back. Stay in touch. You know, just really appreciate you coming on the show and being so flexible.

[Katie]

Give Kevin my best.

[Anya Cain]

I will, I will. All right, Take care.

[Katie]

Nice talk to you. You do.

[Anya Cain]

Bye. Thank you so much to Katie for coming on the show and sharing her experiences. We also appreciate her sending just everything to verify that she knew Again. We reviewed all these different screenshots and venmos and it's. It's just extraordinary, the reminder that people who do horrible things are still people and they still leave a footprint and they live a life before whatever they did. And sometimes getting to know a little bit about what red flags they did have or what red flags they didn't have can be a way to understand, try to get at why stuff like this happens. I don't think you can ever really get at why completely, but absolutely. Thank you so much.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at kevintg.

[Anya Cain]

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We're obsessed with our Quint pieces. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

What is Quint?

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors. And you're just going to get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles, but we wanted to update so we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambry stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses because like I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

[Anya Cain]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about the, the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably, if I convince her. Take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I got a beret too because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret. And yeah, I, I just really. Quint is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things. Make sure the sizing's right for you. And it's just a great deal for murder sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Quincy to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Queens.commsheet you know, Anya, we are in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This true crime space. It's such a difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have A real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't, like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

SimpliSafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, we're no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically veiled threats where people say they're going to come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with SimpliSafe, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new active guard outdoor protection, that's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened. They're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 247 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras. And also, one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment and it can't be on the walls permanently as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters. They're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe. Mr. Gecko, you're a huge inspiration to.

[Katie]

Us all, but who was your muse?

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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