The Fentanyl Files: Mother and Son

Summary

Podcast Episode Summary: "The Fentanyl Files: Mother and Son"

Episode Overview In this deeply moving episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the harrowing realities of the fentanyl crisis through the personal narratives of Jen, a registered nurse, and her adult son, Jonathan. This episode, released on June 10, 2025, offers an unflinching look at how addiction intertwines with mental health struggles and systemic healthcare failures, providing listeners with both heart-wrenching stories and critical insights into the opioid epidemic.

Understanding the Fentanyl Crisis The episode begins with an overview of fentanyl's role in the broader opioid epidemic. Áine explains, "Fentanyl is a highly potent synthetic opioid... it's cheap and accessible for dealers" ([03:07]). The hosts highlight the lethal nature of fentanyl, noting its ability to cause overdose with minimal quantities and its frequent covert mixing with other illicit drugs, leading to unintentional overdoses among unsuspecting users ([03:38]).

Introducing Jen and Jonathan Jen and Jonathan's story is introduced as a poignant example of the fentanyl crisis's impact on families. Jen, a dedicated nurse, has witnessed firsthand the devastation of addiction both professionally and personally. Her son, Jonathan, has battled with drug addiction exacerbated by his diagnosis of type 1 diabetes and subsequent PTSD following a traumatic event—the sudden death of his father due to a heart attack ([04:11]).

Struggles with the Healthcare System Jen recounts the initial challenges they faced navigating the healthcare system to secure the necessary support for Jonathan. She emphasizes the systemic obstacles that complicate access to treatment, stating, "Our system's so broken" ([05:41]). The duo discusses the difficulties in obtaining appropriate mental health care and addiction treatment, highlighting how insurance limitations and bureaucratic red tape often impede timely and effective intervention ([06:12]).

Insurance Issues and Their Impact A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the crippling effects of insurance barriers. Jen details the emotional and logistical turmoil caused by insurance denials, which hindered Jonathan's access to inpatient detox and rehabilitation services. She shares a particularly distressing incident where last-minute insurance issues nearly prevented Jonathan from receiving critical treatment ([27:26]). This situation underscores the broader issue of how inadequate insurance coverage exacerbates the addiction crisis by limiting access to necessary care.

Coping Mechanisms and Recovery Efforts Despite the numerous setbacks, both Jen and Jonathan exhibit resilience in their battle against addiction. Jonathan discusses his personal struggles with withdrawal and the inadequate support received during treatment programs, saying, "I always end up thinking I can do it by myself and it absolutely cannot be done by myself" ([22:30]). Jen highlights the importance of comprehensive treatment approaches that address both addiction and underlying mental health issues, advocating for dual diagnosis facilities that tackle the root causes of addiction ([12:58]).

Hope and Reflections on Systemic Changes As the episode progresses, Jen and Jonathan reflect on their hopes for future improvements in the healthcare system. They advocate for early intervention, better mental health support, and more inclusive insurance policies that prioritize treatment over punitive measures. Jen passionately asserts, "Treat the cause, treat the root, get to the root of the addiction" ([60:15]), emphasizing the need for societal shifts in how addiction and mental health are perceived and managed.

Advice to Others In their concluding remarks, both Jen and Jonathan offer heartfelt advice to listeners facing similar struggles. Jen encourages persistent advocacy and support for loved ones battling addiction, stating, "Keep fighting knowing that it is an addiction, it's not them" ([70:21]). Jonathan emphasizes the importance of seeking help and the dangers of attempting recovery alone, advising, "Don't be scared to ask for help or to go get help" ([72:20]).

Closing Thoughts The episode concludes with Matt and Kevin expressing their admiration for Jen and Jonathan's courage and resilience. They celebrate Jonathan's achievement of being fentanyl-free since July 2024 and commend Jen for overcoming insurance hurdles to secure affordable treatment ([74:26]). This episode serves as both a sobering examination of the fentanyl crisis and a beacon of hope for those affected by addiction, highlighting the critical need for systemic reform and compassionate support.

Notable Quotes

• Jen on dual diagnosis: "So the dual diagnosis and, you know, a lot of the detox facilities or rehab facilities don't, don't deal or dive into the dual diagnosis" ([12:58]).
• Jonathan on addiction: "I always end up thinking I can do it by myself and it absolutely cannot be done by myself" ([22:30]).
• Jen on systemic failures: "Our system's so broken" ([05:41]).
• Jonathan on seeking help: "Don't be scared to ask for help or to go get help" ([72:20]).

Conclusion The Fentanyl Files: Mother and Son episode offers a compelling narrative that intertwines personal struggle with broader societal issues, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the complexities surrounding the fentanyl epidemic. Through Jen and Jonathan's stories, the episode underscores the urgent need for systemic changes in healthcare and addiction treatment, while also offering a narrative of hope and resilience.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Content warning this episode contains discussion of mental illness, addiction, suicide and violence.

[Anya Cain]

Our series the Fentanyl Files seeks to get at the heart of a drug crisis that is claiming lives across the United States. Fentanyl is a highly potent synthetic opioid originally developed for anesthesia. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, fentanyl has played the biggest role in the wider opioid epidemic since 2016. It's cheap and accessible for dealers who get it through a pipeline that originates with precursors in China that get sent to Mexican drug cartels who then manufacture the drug and traffic it into the United States.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Fentanyl is dangerous because it takes very little of the substance to kill a person. It can also be mixed into other drugs like heroin or cocaine, or even pressed into pills. According to the CDC, 150 people die daily from synthetic opioid overdoses, including those linked to fentanyl. Sometimes those struggling with drug addiction succumb to fentanyl overdoses. Others simply ingest a pill or a drug that they're not aware contains fentanyl. Young people experimenting with drugs are especially susceptible to this.

[Anya Cain]

After we started our Fentanyl Files series, we started hearing from members of our audience. They each had a personal story to share about how addiction has changed their lives. One of these audience members is Jen, a registered nurse. She's awesome. She has not just encountered addiction on the job. One of her children, her son Jonathan, has also struggled with drug addiction, and fentanyl was a big part of that problem.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We asked her if she would be interested in sharing her story on our program. We thought it'd be great for our listeners to hear from a parent trying to help their child navigate such a crisis. She agreed, and then she told us something that surprised us. Her son would also be very interested in speaking with us. We did this interview last spring. Mother and son both joined us for a raw and heartbreaking conversation. Jen is talkative. Jonathan is quiet but insightful. He was on the verge of going back into rehab when we chatted with him.

[Anya Cain]

This conversation is about a messy and very, very deeply sad situation. A mother in agony over her adult son's struggles with addiction. But there's hope here, too, because there is always hope for those of us who suffer from addiction. We feel that many families may see themselves or those they love in this mother and son duo, in the love and the anguish and the setbacks and the logistical problems and the eternal striving for relief, for something better, for safety from danger.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We also feel our talk with Jen and Jonathan highlights some real problems with our healthcare system, namely the idea that money and endless battles over health insurance are getting in the way of people getting clean from addiction. Or the fact that there are limited options when it comes to preventing troubled individuals from leaving or refusing treatment and continuing to use to the detriment of themselves and all of those around them. Or the importance of early intervention over mental health struggles and dual diagnoses.

[Anya Cain]

We commend Jonathan for his bravery. We commend Jen for her support for her son. We sympathize with the hardships they have gone through. But we hope what they have to say can help someone out there know that they are not alone. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Fentanyl Files. Mother and son.

[Interviewer]

So, first of all, thank you both so much for joining us today. Can you just kind of quickly introduce yourselves to our audience?

[Jen]

Sure. My name is Jen, and I am a class A enabler to my addict son here to share along with me.

[Jonathan]

I'm Jonathan. I'm her son.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely. We want to thank you both for being here. We know you've both been through a lot with addiction. I want to say I myself am an addict, so just welcome.

[Jen]

My.

[Interviewer]

My drug of choice was alcohol, and. And so I. I definitely. I understand how. How rough it can be getting. Getting sucked into something that kind of takes over your life to a large degree. But I just think I. Both of you, from. From the parent side and from the. The person who's actually experiencing the addiction side, I just want to commend you for kind of speaking out on this. And I think what you're doing today could really give hope to a lot of people who are in an identical situation, because this is not just a problem. Affecting a few people. It's affecting a lot of people. So I guess to start off with maybe going back and forth, you can tell us a bit of your stories and sort of how this started, where it's gone over the years, and maybe kind of alternate based on your different perspectives.

[Jen]

Absolutely. I'll start. I'm going to go back to when Jonathan was diagnosed as a type 1 diabetic, which medically, if you don't know it, can cause a lot of fluctuations in his mood, in his, you know, his mental health, his attention, being able to pay attention, being able to concentrate in school. So I'm going to start there because that's really where the battle began. Not with the addiction, but just with the system in general. Jonathan went to a charter school and was the only type 1 diabetic diagnosed in the entire school. For years, I think the elementary school, he was the only type 1 diabetic diagnosed. So we had to pave the way for any other type 1 diabetics that came along and how they were treated because it is regulated. His rights are protected under the ada. Just like, you know, anybody else with any kind of, you know, disability. There are things that he has rights to. Rights to a water bottle. Nobody wanted him to carry a water bottle in school. So, I mean, it just started with little stuff like that and just the constant battle, just going and going and going. So not only did I feel the battle, but I'm sure you probably felt the battle in school like everything was just a constant fight.

[Interviewer]

Tell us about that, Jonathan, from. From your perspective, what was that like growing up where, you know, it's. It's just a battle to get something as simple as a water bottle in terms of accommodations.

[Jonathan]

Oh, it was just. It was very frustrating. Just the fact everybody didn't understand and would want me have the things that I needed.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely. Now you're seeing him struggle like this, and I imagine, you know, as a nurse, did that affect your ability to do advocacy around issues he was facing, especially since, literally, medical issues, he's supposed to have rights under ada, as you said. Did that.

[Anya Cain]

Did that.

[Interviewer]

Having that expertise as a nurse, did that make it any easier to sort of know what was going on, know what to do?

[Jen]

Um, we had already been in touch with a special education advocate for my oldest son. So we knew pretty much I knew where to go and what to look for. Um, plus, Riley did an excellent job, you know, educating, you know, me as a parent on what his rights are, you know, in school, what they can't, you know, what he can do, what he is able to do. And then we reached out a couple of times to our advocate and she was like, you know, of course, oh no, we gotta go, I can't do this. And so she helped, you know, guided me, you know, guided me through it. And a couple of times when his education stuff came up, we were able to get him set up with a 504, which is a, it's an accommodation for. It's not an IEP, but a 504 kind of like special provisions where he can, he can take longer on tests or we pretty much modified it to, you know, to his needs. Like he could get up and go to the bathroom whenever he wanted, have a water bottle, you know, with him at all times. If he felt low, you know, there was a sign that he could give the teacher things like that. You know, she did help us along the way, you know, meeting with school and things like that.

[Interviewer]

One thing, Jen, you've mentioned to us when we were sort of talking to arrange this, the issue of dual diagnosis. When it comes to things like mental health, when it comes to things like addiction, can you speak to your understanding of what that means and why it's important for people to recognize and be aware of.

[Jen]

So the dual diagnosis and you know, a lot of the detox facilities or rehab facilities don't, don't deal or dive into the dual diagnosis. So really, and you know, you can see this in your everyday life. Mental health and crime or, and addiction, it all goes hand in hand, you know, so let's throw this guy in jail, you know, because he was high on drugs and he broke into the store, broke into the house or, you know, whatever was sleeping on the corner or him in jail. Now he's in the justice, you know, criminal justice system where they don't treat the, the reason there is an addiction. And with the dual diagnosis, they treat the root cause, like the ptsd, like, you know, whatever leads them, the underlying underlying cause. I guess mental health wise, that leads to the addiction, which leads to other things. And I think that it's very, I think it's very important to have a dual diagnosis facility. And we've gotten duped a couple of times where, you know, Jonathan, I'll share and I'll let him go into a little bit more if he wants. He just recently, well, just this year did a 30 day program. He had never stayed in for 30 days because of the PTSD. He didn't want to be away from me and his grandma. My mom had swivels so he didn't want to be away from us. He was, he feared being away from us because of, you know, what led to, led to this today. And I'll, you know, definitely let him dig into, you know, what letting down that road. But so he did his 30 days. They never once touched on the dual diagnosis, you know, and the PTSD aspect of it. They just went straight for the addiction. And, you know, they can give you a shot, they can, they can put you on Vivitrol, they can put you on Suboxone. But if you don't take Suboxone, it's not going to help, you know, to keep them away from the cravings. And the shot is really the only thing that I found that helped, that kept him on the straight and narrow. And for whatever reason, he fell off that wagon and started using again. We actually are going for detox tonight when we're done and I think he's ready to do it this time. But, you know, with addiction, it comes and goes. So.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, and good for you, Jonathan, for getting back in there.

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[Interviewer]

I wonder if you could tell us a little bit whatever you're comfortable with, Sort of your journey, dealing with the mental health struggles and then going into sort of falling into addiction and what, what that path has been like for you.

[Jonathan]

Well, I mean I, I had smoked and stuff, you know, before, but I, I was having trouble with my girlfriend at the time and just had a lot of stress bond and, and then so I, and my dad had moved down to Maryland and so I talked to him and I could stay with him for a while and I went to go down there and I was going to miss my flight. So we met halfway and he took me the rest away. And the morning we got back down there around 11 and I, and we went to bed and I woke up the next morning around like 3 o' clock and he hadn't been feeling good and he ended up having a heart.

[Jen]

He had a massive heart attack.

[Jonathan]

Yeah. And that just really. And I was, I was right there with him when it happened and just saw him and that's, that's what gave me ptsd.

[Jen]

And.

[Jonathan]

Just, just seeing, seeing that is what led me into doing what I started doing. Just to not have to think about that or go, you know, have to relive that and think about it all the time. And it just, and every time I have gotten clean, it's. I always end up thinking I can do it by myself. And that's why I, it's not that I want to fall off and, you know, not go through with staying clean. I just, I always, my mind goes to thinking that I can do it by myself and it absolutely cannot be done by myself. And I definitely, definitely need the help I need being medications, and obviously, I need to stick with it and help it with it.

[Interviewer]

Absolutely. I'm so sorry that happened to you, Jonathan, but thank you so much for sharing. I know that for a lot of people, that kind of trauma can be at the root of what they're dealing with then with drugs later on. And, Jen, what has that been like to see Jonathan go through these struggles and to try to be a support system for him? As it's been going on.

[Jen]

It'S been horrible. We first found out that he was doing. He was doing the Percocets, and it's the Percocets with the Fentanyl. So they're the. What are they called? Dirty perks, dirty 30s or dirty blues or whatever. And, yeah, he. I don't even. I don't even know what started. I don't even know what triggered, you know, us finding out his attitude. He was raging.

[Jonathan]

Well, I had. I just. I started doing so much, and I scared myself multiple times thinking that I had already done it. And that's why I finally went to her and told her, because I didn't want something happening and her not knowing or just wondering, you know, what. What happened or what did. If anything did happen. And I didn't want help. And that's why I looked at her and told her.

[Jen]

But you could definitely see his attitude change. And even when he falls off and starts getting him again, you can see his attitude change. He's very, very angry and just rages and puts his fist through anything that he can get his fist through. He's been tested for traumatic brain injuries because he has had multiple concussions. He has broken multiple hickory doors with his head. So the CTE that, you know, the. You hear the football players are. You know, they're finding that they have now because he is like, telltale sign, you know, of a tbi. So we wanted to make sure that wasn't an issue. But we. It's been. It's been two. Almost two and a half years now that he's been battling. And for the most part, up until probably summer last year, we could detox at home and, you know, get him through it. Well, then he started going into dka, which is diabetic ketoacidosis. And his organs will start, you know, start failing. Like, his body is overcompensating in the opposite way or the wrong way. So he's been in ICU 11 times since then, which is part partially of what the battle with insurance is, not to Mention. It's so hard to get into any type of mental health counseling, you know, to get him into the addiction. He's been kicked out of so many IOP programs. Intensive outpatient. He was in an IOP program after his 30 day stay. And he went for, it was three times a week. He went probably what, three weeks, not three days a week, but he, he attended, you know, for five weeks, but then he just stopped going. He used, started using again. And that's where we are and that's what brought us to where we are now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you talked about battles with insurance. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

[Jen]

Yeah, absolutely. Jonathan was, came to me and he was willing. I think it got to the point where he could see that he was, he was losing and everything that he had. My mom and I had pretty much said, this is the date, this is the day, do what you got to do. But it has to be done by that day or, you know, you have to go. Which is really hard because I've kept him alive since he was 8, you know, making sure that he had all of his medicines and everything for his, his blood sugars and the best machines out there. So he came to me and he was ready, he was ready for, you know, treatment. He said, let's do this. We had gotten an appointment to, for intake at one of the, you know, bigger facilities around. And we, it was the following day. We get a phone call an hour before his intake assessment and we're told that he couldn't, couldn't go there because of insurance, the insurance, they didn't accept this particular insurance that I had, which is through my employer. And I'm like, what do you mean? He's already been through, you know, your program once he has, you know, care sores. Why can't he. He came under care source? Well, because he has your commercial insurance. It's billed first. I said, the only reason he has my insurance is for burial benefits. That's the only reason I keep him. So I have money, you know, in case something were to happen, to bury him, life insurance. And she said, I'm sorry, we just can't take him. So I have a kid sitting next to me. I'm bawling. He's like looking at me, like in a panic, like, I don't what now? And you know, together, we, we. He was, you know, disgusted, you know, beat down. Why do I even go for treatment, you know, type thing. And so I get on the phone, start making phone calls. One place had a bed over by Illinois. One place had a bed down in Southern Indiana. I was like, there's tons. There are tons of facilities here in town, you know, and surrounding counties. Why is. Why is my insurance such an issue? So I called out to one of the outpatient programs and I asked him, you know, I have, you know, this insurance. Where can I go, you know, where can I take him to, you know, to get the treatment that he needs? And they gave me a name. And I said, nope, they don't accept our insurance anymore. So they're giving me wrong information. A facility, you know, that accepts people. I was like, no, they don't take our insurance anymore. After the first of the year, they didn't renew contracts or something. And so I just, you know, keep dialing. And I found I do want to use this name because the. The way it made me feel when I. And when they were helping me and helping Jonathan get into this, I. It was like somebody handed it to me, like, brought us there. And I'm sorry if I get, like, choked up about it, but it was. It was pretty emotional. It was Recovery Centers of America in there, here in Indianapolis. And the lady on the phone was like, you know, we went through the whole question and intake and verified, you know, with my insurance that it was covered. And she said, okay, okay, Jonathan, I'll have. I'll have the car there at 1:30 to get you. What do you. What do you mean, come get me? Come get him? She was like, oh, yeah, we send. We send a vehicle to bring them in. And I was just like, oh, my God. I just. I was just like, shocked because that really is the hardest thing, is to walk out, oh, a building and leave him there, even though, you know, he's in good hands. You know, are they going to check his blood sugar? Are they going to, you know, let him go into a coma overnight? You know, and he needs an inpatient detox because of his d. His diabetes. And he goes into DKA so fast. And so I'm going to have this lady tell me, yeah, they'll be there to get him. So they came. They came and picked him up from our house. He had his bags packed already. He was like, don't you start crying. And because he's never been away from us, you know, maybe to stay at a buddy's house overnight. But I think it really. When his dad died and he was nine hours away from me, I couldn't get to him by plane faster then I could get there by car. So I jumped in my car and drove after him, but, you know, just everything, you know, that had happened leading up to this, and for them to basically say, we got you. We got you. And so he went in. You know, they kind of told me what the process was going to be. And then I get a phone call from the regional director of Recovery Centers of America. Wanted to check in with you, let you know that Jonathan's there. They're getting him off, and just told me how everything was going, which set me, you know, at ease. And then a couple hours later, I get another phone call from the admissions director, and she was like, we got you. He is the sweetest guy that we have ever met, and they love him already. And I was like, you just wait until that stuff wears off, and he's not gonna be very nice. But, I mean, you know, I thought, oh, my God. You know, I was just. I was relieved. It was like divine intervention, you know, like, he couldn't go to this center, but, you know, let's call this center. And it was just like it was meant to be.

[Interviewer]

It's crazy to me, though. I mean, I'm so glad that ended up working out for you both. But, like, the fact that you had to run around and scramble to get something when it's literally a matter of life and death for. For you, Jonathan, is insane. Like, that's insane. That's a broken society, in my opinion.

[Jen]

I don't think it's better.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, I'm, like, getting. I'm, like, getting angry over here because I think a lot of us have had the experience of dealing with some nonsense with health insurance, but when it's something that's so important and lives are on the line.

[Jen]

Yeah, that.

[Interviewer]

That should not be happening.

[Jen]

The whole. The whole comorbidity on addiction, and then you have the, you know, being a diabetic on top of it, and, um, just the ptsd, the nightmares, everything, you know, being away from us. He probably. I would say probably nine out of the 11 times he was in ICU on an insulin drip, mind you. Signed himself out nine out of the 11 times. And the hospital lets him sign out because they cannot keep him, even though he's got encephalopathy. You know, he's got swelling from the dka, which is making him not think right. He's not a harm. He's doesn't want to harm himself, doesn't want to harm anybody else. Mental health, you know, checks off the box. He can go. We don't have any reason to hold him. And nobody wants to do a 72 hour hold. Nobody wants to do an emergency detention because it's too much paperwork. And so if they did an emergency detention, you know, each time he was in there, maybe it wouldn't have been 11 times that he was in ICU. Maybe one of those times that they did do the emergency detention and get mental health in there to really do an evaluation. Maybe we wouldn't be sitting here. Absolutely. You want to talk about broken systems? The main systems that we reach out to for help, that we depend on, for guidance and for treatment is broken. It's so broken. Our system's so broken. So I told you, it only gets better. He's in his 30 day program. He's in two weeks into it now, he's getting antsy, you know, getting Nancy wanting to sign out, which they, they pretty much told him that if he signs out, he can go, but he can't have any of his stuff, his phone, his, you know, his extra clothes, everything he came in with. He can leave, but he has to come back in 24 hours to get everything else. Well, when you're an addict and you're itching to get to the drugs, to get to the pills, you don't care. You don't care. I'll sign out. I will walk him. I will find a way to get there. Thank God he didn't. But, you know, that's. I could hear it in recovery centers of America. He met a couple of people that he really clicked with. And I really think that they are the only reason that he stayed in for the 30 days. Because after two weeks I was getting phone calls from the admissions director. Was totally night and day, like somebody flipped the switch. It was all about money. Now they don't, they don't take my insurance. My insurance isn't accepted. But it was when we came in. It was accepted. Why did it switch? Because of my insurance plan. They've work has made it so good that you only pay $78 for family every two weeks if you go in network. So they're not in network, which they are under the big insurance plan, you know, But I went with a, like a primary plan or something which is about $130 cheaper. Every two weeks it was just me. He had, you know, care source. He was on Medicaid. His brother doesn't ever use the insurance. So, you know, cheaper is better. I can go in, you know, and network. So that's where the problem came in. So now I start filing appeals. I'm up to the Washington appeal as we speak. I've appealed it once, twice, and then they rebuild it. And so I have filed a second level twice now and it was denied. And it's denied because any of his previous visits have been to Community Hospital and was through Community Behavioral Health. And now he's in a different network and they don't see that information. They don't see the nine times that he's been in ICU because of going through withdrawal, going into. And it didn't matter what I sent him. I sent him 42 pages of documentation showing his previous hospital stays. And each letter I got. It's a form letter. It's a form letter because you can tell it's just the reasons, you know, typed in there. But I don't care. I will appeal it as far as I have to appeal it. And I will take it as far as I have to take it because, well, one, they'll never get $100,000 out of me for a 30 day stay. I mean, you know, you're on the hook for $100,000, $111 if you want the truth. $111,000 for a 30 day. Exactly. 30 day stay. Yeah. So they were telling me during all of this, and I kept telling them, I don't care what it costs. Get. Give him the treatment, give him the stuff that you need. Well, he's in rehab and it's bothering him because he sees all of these people in rehab. And I'll let you kind of share on that. Seeing all the people leave because their insurance was up or so he would call me. Have you heard anything from insurance? So two weeks. I know, a good solid week. He wasn't getting any treatment because he wasn't engaged. You lost him when you told him that insurance wasn't covering it. Like, why would you tell him that? So, you know, that's. And when I say that, it flipped the switch. It was night and day from that point on. And I just kept telling him, you're the ones that approved this. You're the one that approved his stay, that checked to see if it was a network.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Jen]

So yeah, that's where. That's where that ended up. They did get him. I. I did get him to stay the 30 days in order to get outpatient treatment set up.

[Interviewer]

Right. Jonathan, what was that like for you, watching all those people leave because of insurance issues and also having the added stress on you all of a sudden where you're told money's an issue right now?

[Jonathan]

It kind of just bothering me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Jonathan]

Know what was going to happen and I didn't want, I don't want it to be an issue like it is money wise, but I mean there was more than 10 or 12 people that ended up getting kicked out because their insurance lapsed or wouldn't pay. And I just, I didn't know what was going to happen. Like when they told me that my insurance went bad, I didn't know what was going to happen with it. So it just worried me the whole time. Like she said after that, like I didn't, like I didn't see the therapist for a week. It was just, I don't know, it just wasn't. And on top of that I wasn't engaged because I was worried about all of it. But also like I said, like I didn't ever send check up with me. Like they just, they were worried about figuring that out that they didn't, they weren't worried about or seemed like they weren't worried about me and helping me.

[Jen]

In a meeting they told me this, that they were in a conference with Jonathan and a couple of the providers trying to go over, you know, the expectations or going through something and somebody told him that insurance wasn't covering his stay and the admissions director was hot, very, very hot that you would even bring that up, you know, to him, especially knowing, you know, how close I had been in contact with all of them. They knew that they could reach out and I, you know, I flat out told him, I don't care what it costs you, you give him the treatment that he needs, you have him in there and you make it happen. So, I mean, every time, every night I'm talking to him and he's telling me no, I just didn't feel like going today. Nope, I didn't feel like doing that. So, I mean, I could see like the, the wind was taken out of a sail and, you know, all because of insurance. And I'm. They don't. They. At that time, they were not taking any of the state insurance. So no Hoosier, health wise, hip, anything like that. So it was all commercial. So they pretty much, pretty much could, you know, dictate what they, what they did and what they didn't do. Since then, I think that they've started taking the state insurance. But like I said, I mean, I will. I'll take it as far as I can go. Just, you know, just so you know, one, it's paid for, it doesn't really matter. You know, like I said, they can get a dollar a week or a dollar a month, you know, as long as they can pay them something. But, I mean, I'm not going. I'm not going to hold him back on any medical treatment just because we have a broken system, because we can't get him the care that he needs. I'm paying you to. Paying you to take care of it. Take care of it.

[Interviewer]

I was going to ask you, talk us through leaving that program up to today, sort of what has been your trajectory for both of you since then?

[Jen]

You know, when Jonathan came out, he was really good. He was going. I have an aunt that has battled addiction. She's been sober for 15 years now. So we've been through Al, anon, aa, alotine. The boys went to Alotine. So we have a really good group down here, Bias, which is Club East. I don't know if you've heard of it, but they have all of the different out, you know, the A meetings and na. So he was going down there and his friend that he met in rehab, she would go to meetings with them. They would go all over the city to different meetings. And then I kind of. I saw him kind of dropping off, kind of slacking off where Jonathan wasn't, really wasn't into working the 12 steps. He just wasn't engaged in it. And I'll let him kind of, you know, speak on that. I don't know if it wasn't. If it's not for him or, you know, if he just. If he just doesn't relate to it, but I saw that kind of slipping by the wayside and I would say, well, this is day number two. No meetings. You know, supposed to do 30 days. 30 means 30 days, whatever. But. And then I can see the behaviors coming back. We did celebrate 60 days, so we're 60 days plain. So we'll have to get a start over token. But we did the 30 day and the 60 day, and whatever happens, something. It was, I think your dad's birthday or something. I don't know, something. Something triggered it. But because he wasn't on the Suboxone or anything to curb those cravings, you know, he knows that he can't do it on his own.

[Jonathan]

I just. Again, I just. I. One, I'm just. I'm really bad with taking medication in general. And I started the Suboxone and I started, you know, kind of slacking off with that just because of that taking the medication. And I finally just got to the point where I wasn't taking it. And then people around me, a couple people I know had relapsed, not on what I was doing, but started drinking. And then I also just started getting no stress about other stuff. And I just saw that they were, you know, being happy, being free, and kind of just use that as an excuse and like, backing up again. Not. I mean, I. I wasn't expecting to start doing it as much as I. I started doing it again. I just. I was just gonna do it a couple times, and then I did it a couple too many times and tried to stop it again and see that I was getting sick and going through the withdrawals. And so that's why it's continued again. Just because I absolutely feel like death, like I'm dying when I go through with jobs. And a majority of the time, like, mostly every time that I've ever gotten back on to doing it, it's. I don't do it to get high. I don't do it. I mean, at first, yeah, that's what it is. I do it to get high and, you know, not to think about stuff and, you know, not to be stressed out. But it gets to the point where I'm one of just telling it to not be sick. And that's. That's what sucks, is because I feel like I can't not do it because, like I said, I watch it. It's like I'm dying whenever I'm going through the sickness. And that's just. That's what's hard about it.

[Jen]

And that's what we. That's where we kind of, up until last summer, we were able to kind of manage it at home. You know, we could, you know, do the stomach. You know, stomach pills, the clonidine for the heart muscle relaxing, muscle relaxers for the aches and the pains. But everything is intensified. Everything is intensified when you stop taking the opiates. And so he doesn't. You can't. You can't stop that pain. Like, we will lay. And I don't know if you've heard this before, but when you go through opiate withdrawal, they lay on the floor or they lay in the shower for hours and hours and hours with just that hot water running over them.

[Jonathan]

That's the only, like, that's the only time I can be comfortable. I still, you know, feel sick and all that. But just hot water, it just. I don't. I don't know what it does. It just. It's the only time I can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Feel.

[Jonathan]

Like I can sleep or, you know, which I know is dangerous. And it's. It's like. It's just. It's on. I'm. I can be comfortable and I go literally get in the shower, get out of it, be out of it for 30 minutes to an hour, and right back in enough time for the water to warm back up, and then I'll be right back in it. And it's.

[Jen]

I'll do that four or five times. And I heard.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's.

[Interviewer]

I heard. I've heard dope sickness is like the. One of the worst feelings like a human being. So what you're describing, you know, the carrot of getting high, but then the stick of avoiding that. I think it's something that's. A lot of people, you know, have that. I'm curious, Jonathan, talk us through what you're going to be doing, I guess, tonight and sort of what's next for you and sort of how.

[Jen]

Where.

[Interviewer]

Where your head's at with sort of going, you know, pursuing the sobriety again.

[Jonathan]

Like I said, I just. I. I don't. Like I said, it's not. I'm not doing it to avoid distress or, you know, ptsd. I'm just at the point now where I'm just gonna not be sick. And it's. It's taking everything out of me and everybody around me, and I just. I'm tired of that. I'm tired of stressing my money up out and kind of stress myself out and worrying about, you know, how to get my next high and all that. And it's just. It's very draining to me and everybody around me and it's draining, you know, just trying not to be sick every day. And so I just, I want to go, you know, detox and get it over with and I want to get back on the venitral shot or the 70% supplicade, which is another, like, shot. It's a monthly shot just because I did very good with that. But I just, I know I have to stick with it. I mean, I may not go to AA or any. It's not for me. I don't, I don't. I just, I can't get into that. I don't, I don't know why. I just can't. But I do need to keep my eye open. I do. And I do need to stay on the shot. And that's my plan for this go around. Just because I know what's going on for myself every time. And I don't know why. My brain tells me I can do it by myself, but I just, I, I feel like I get comfortable and I, I feel like I can do it by myself because I don't have the cravings and all that, but I know it's just meditation, but I just get comfortable and think that I can do it by myself because I feel that way, but I know I can. And I know that somebody else stink with my Iop seeing the doctor and taking my shot every month. And that's what, I just think that's what I want to get back on because I don't have to remember it every day. Like I said, I'm just, I'm terrible at taking medications. So I would be. That's just the best path for me. And that's what I've seen for the most family, the Suboxone, you know, herbs and cravings, pretty good. But I still have cravings with the Suboxone just because, I mean, I'm taking like a pill, so much juice. I. And another thing with the Suboxone is I've, I have overused it before. So it's literally, I mean, it's literally just trading one addiction for another. And so I just, I don't want to be honest in boxing again. I want to get back on the safe back of a shot. He said, no, that's the best way. And I mean, it's.

[Interviewer]

That makes sense. You need to do the treatment program and the sort of way forward that's right for you. It can be different for everybody dealing with this. And Jen, I wanted to ask you, what are your hopes for Jonathan going forward now that he's, he's taking this journey? He's trying it again. What are you Hopeful about.

[Jen]

I'm hopeful that it sticks this time. You know, all I can. All I can do is protect him the best that I can. But he's. I'll be 21 in August. I'll be 21. And, you know, it's a whole different world. And once you turn 21, you know, going. Going out and, you know, doing things like that. But, you know, not only that, I just. I want him to live a normal life, as normal as he can. You know, I've always said that, you know, since he was diagnosed as, you know, with being a diabetic, you have to make sure that he has things in case his blood sugar crashes or, you know, you have to. You have to guide him down the right road. And I feel like I don't have any control over. Over this. I have no control over, you know, anything that has to do with. Well, with his care. They won't even talk to me most of the time because he's, you know, 20. And I tell him, put my name on there so they can talk to me because I'll. I'll call them, get them straight and tell them, you know, this is what needs to happen. But if they don't know that that's what needs to happen, they, you know, are just fumbling through the. Through the pages. But I'm hopeful that it. That it kicks in this time. I mean, he has done some things this past four or five months. Well, this past year that I have, I never thought he would ever do drained bank accounts. Just the panic that he has when he comes to me asking for money and I tell him no, and I tell him no. And like on the 10th no, I'm like, oh, my God, Jonathan, here's $20. Go get it. I don't, you know, just go. And I don't have a backbone. That's why I said in the very beginning I am a class A enabler. But he also knows that when enough is enough, and he knows that it's enough, he sees it, you know, sees me and my mom, you know, struggling with it every day, and it's just not. It's not the. It's not the kid, you know. You know, it's horrible. Addiction is normal.

[Interviewer]

You talked about the insurance. You talked about how, you know, problems, the, er. Problems with just how. How all the system works. What are some changes that could happen to the system that you both feel would make lives easier for both people dealing with addiction and their families and sort of help people dealing with addiction be able to combat that without going bankrupt and having all of this headache about money and insurance and all that. What are, I guess, what are some high, big picture changes that you both would like to see that you think could be helpful?

[Jen]

Big picture. Treat, treat the cause, treat the root, get to the root of the addiction. I would love to see, you know, mental health not be looked at like, you know, you have a scarlet letter because you, you know, you do have a diagnosis or you do, you know, have PTSD and, you know, triggers. I really, I really feel, you know, IMPD started the program, or I guess IEMS started the program with mcat, which is geared towards mental health. And they come out to mental health balls, where there's mental health, you know, involved. Well, we had a situation the other night. Jonathan was raging. He was, you know, beating up the doors, putting holes in the wall. And my mom called 911. He was suicidal, verbally telling me he was going to kill himself. He wasn't going to be here in the morning and had a pocket full of fentanyl, these fentanyl pills. So if he went to sleep, I wasn't going to sleep because I knew that he was taking those pills. So he's getting ready to take off, walking the ambulance. Pulls down the street with her lights on. He takes off because he knows that, you know, they're there to talk to him, the medics. You know, I say, he's down the street. He's walking down the street and I'm like, well, we can't go after him, okay? He's suicidal. He's been telling me that he's going to kill himself. He's not going to be here in the morning. He has the means to do it. You know, he has the plan, it's in his pocket. The cops pull up and they directing, you know, direct him down there. The medics apologize all over themselves. We can't do anything. We can't go after him. The cops short the bus, pulls down the street. The cop comes back and says, well, the medics did his vital signs and my partner talked to him and he's fine. He's just upset and just needs to go for a walk. They let him walk, didn't take him to the hospital for evaluation. They made that call. IMPD officers made that call that he was safe, he was not a danger to himself. MCAT only worked during the day, 8 to 5, so we don't have any mental health team on at night. So they let him walk.

[Interviewer]

A lot of people have said that increasingly like cops shouldn't be dealing with mental health crisis or things like that because it can escalate and lead to an unsafe situation.

[Jen]

He's already tried suicide by cop.

[Interviewer]

Right.

[Jen]

He has come out full force, full force at the Lawrence Police Department. Shoot me. Shoot me now. But we told him that he was, you know, he was going to do that. But men, police are not there for mental health counseling.

[Interviewer]

But like, I guess it's. It's just. It is hard. It seems like there's not really a good pathway for people. And. And what gets me was what you're talking about with insurance. Like the fact that there's so limited resources. There seems to be not enough beds, not enough opportunities for someone to be in a stable situation and not have to worry about finances and just be able to be sort of kept there. What are both of your ideas? And I'm curious to get this. Like, do you think that there should be less freedom for people dealing with addiction crises to just like leave on their own? Do you think that would make things worse if you weren't allowed to leave? I guess I'd be curious to get Jonathan's take on this as well. Do you think that would be helpful or do you think that would be kind of like there's a better way to do that?

[Jonathan]

That's why I think you said. I mean, yes, it's. It sucks, you know, not being able to leave. But you know, most of the time when people want to leave, or in my case when I wanted to leave, I knew what I wanted to leave for. And it's usually just not have to go through things safely or just being uncomfortable in place. I don't have what I used to have. And I mean it is on mental thing, but again, I think it would be interesting, you know, just really have more mental health. That is. That's literally the main reason why most people got exhausted.

[Jen]

Yeah.

[Jonathan]

Like everybody I've talked to or knowing have had either something traumatic happening over just a fact, not the best life, or it just. It's family history. Yeah. Family history. It's never. There's never not something making. With everybody I've talked to, there's not been one person that. There's not been one person that's started having substance abuse issues and not going through something.

[Interviewer]

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So like, affordable, accessible, convenient and widespread mental health treatment for early intervention before somebody even turns to substances could be, I think, helping people, helping families, but also helping people keep people out of the criminal justice system. Because if they're not turning to that then the behavior is not criminal. And seems like that would be an obvious call for our society to really double down on that, but.

[Jen]

Yeah, well, they did just establish a program. I heard something about it on the news, just in a flash, where they've just recently got grants or something to. Where facilities have so much more money to. To assist. And. I don't know. It was here in town. I don't know what it was. I'm gonna have to look it up. But early intervention, before the addiction gets to that point where you can get in to see a nurse practitioner, even, you know, to. To do the diet or do the assessment, you know, nurse practitioner that works under, you know, a doctor, but working for one. Let me just say, one of the largest networks in Indiana, we have no inpatient detox in our network. So he has to go into the emergency room, which, you know, doubles down on the emergency room to get evaluated, to go inpatient, to detox. So it's putting the burden. It's putting the strain on the emergency rooms, which are already strained, you know, and then you. Then you get the, you know, the employees in the ERs that are burned out from, you know, seeing these patients and, you know, and their negative attitudes. I was one of them. I'm sure. I'm sure I was. But, you know, it's just stereotyping. You know, here's another drug addict, you know, just. They don't think of you as a person. They see you as. See you as an addict. And, yeah, it's. It's. I would love to see. I would love to see something, even if it's. I don't even know that it would have to be a nurse practitioner. Just some kind of certification that people. That somebody can take just to help with the mental health aspect. Just kind of a buffer to get them so they can get in to see somebody, you know, because I. I often think that, you know, you're zero to 60, you know, PTSD, this happens. Baltimore handed Jonathan a card when his. When his dad died, handed him a card and said, if you need anything, if you need to talk to anybody, you. You call this number. So they have, you know, something, you know, built into their system for stuff like that.

[Interviewer]

We need more of it, you know, we need so much more of it. And so, so often people have a hard time. They're trying to find a mental health professional to help them, and it's hard to find anybody. It's hard to find anybody on your insurance, and it's hard to find anybody who even Takes insurance.

[Anya Cain]

And it's.

[Interviewer]

It's like we need more resources poured into that, I guess. Is there anything you wanted to mention before we go?

[Jen]

Just keep pushing, keep advocating. If you have a son or daughter, just know that they're in there and just keep hope alive. You know, just keep. Keep fighting for what you know is right. Keep fighting knowing that it is an addiction, it's not them. But also know that there are resources out there for us as parents, the enablers, and you know, to help us get through the addiction as well. Because it, it really is. It really is stressful on, you know, the, the parents, the grandparents and, you know, that are there with the addicts. You know, where do you draw that line? Tough love. I'm all about it when he gets admitted. I'm all about showing tough love. I'm all about walking away. But I know that he's going to be taken care of. Whereas if I kick him out on the street, and that's why he keeps doing it, because he knows I'm not going to kick him out on the street because he will die. He won't, you know, make sure that he takes insulin and, you know, he'll go into DKA somewhere and just fall out. So he knows that. But I know that my kid's in there somewhere and I know that, you know, just parents keep their chins up, make sure that they get the help they need for them and just keep fighting for what we know is right and don't let them become a statistic.

[Interviewer]

And Jonathan, is there anything we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or sort of close on or advice to give to other people dealing with a similar thing.

[Jonathan]

Just to stick with it and not think that you can do it by yourself. And if. And don't be scared to ask for help or to go get help, because I know a lot of people think that way too. It can't, like I said, it can't be done. And don't feel embarrassed or bad. It. Just find me that medication. Yeah, just get help if you need it.

[Interviewer]

Well said. And. And Jonathan, we just commend you for trying again. God bless you. I really hope you kind of achieve what you need to this time. And best of luck. And best of luck. Best of luck to you, Jen.

[Jen]

And just thank you so much for sharing.

[Interviewer]

This is, I think, an incredibly powerful story that I think people will resonate with because I think a lot of people go through this. And so we just appreciate you speaking out on these issues because I feel like, by doing that, you're helping a lot of other people, too.

[Jen]

Yeah, just keep fighting. Just keep fighting for, you know, for what we know is right. What we know as a society is do you know, it doesn't matter if you're an addict or not, you know, get down to it and treat them. They're human beings. And I think that people don't see that. Awesome.

[Interviewer]

Well, both of you, thank you so much. This has really been super powerful and we just want to thank you for taking the time. I know it's not easy stuff to discuss, but as I said, I think it's going to really help a lot of people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We are very happy to report that Jonathan has been fentanyl free since July of 2024. He's doing very well, living a great life. We congratulate him on this amazing accomplishment.

[Anya Cain]

Also, Jen fought the insurance and ended up owing only a $500 copay. This should give hope to anyone in a similar situation. Thank you sincerely to Jen and Jonathan for their openness. We thank them and wish them both the best and wish Jonathan strength in his journey in recovery.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.