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Murder Sheet
The Future of Crime Solving: A Conversation with Former Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives Special Agent in Charge Eric Harden on the Lingering Harm of Unsolved Violent Crime
01:17:15
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Contains discussion of violence and murder. It also includes some discussion of mental health and some profanity.
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Eric Hardin's resolve to serve in law enforcement dates all the way back to his childhood. He and a cousin survived a harrowing kidnapping attempt when he was very young. From there, Hardin attended Stanford University studying sociology and then he went on to embark on a decades long career in the atf. That's shorthand for the United States Department of Justice's agency, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and explosives. Eric spent 27 years working for the ATF, ultimately coming to run the Los Angeles Field Division.
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Our interview with him is a part of our new occasional recurring segment, the Future of Crime Solving. It is a series where we would talk to different figures associated with E. Sleuth AI. E Sleuth AI offers a suite of new tools crafted to help eliminate backlogs and get cases solved, cold and otherwise. It employs artificial intelligence and machine learning technology, and its systems are Federal Bureau of Investigation, Criminal justice and Information System compliant.
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Basically, what E Sleuth does is take in case files and then it provides suggestions to detectives on the steps they may have missed on further tasks to complete in order to get closer to a conclusion.
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To help convince law enforcement departments around the country that E Sleuth is the future of crime solving, the company is working with an impressive array of former law enforcement officials and they are willing.
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To talk to us in these interviews. We'll get into their careers and we'll Check in with them on how their efforts to implement this technology into real world cases is going. Just as a note, eastleuth is not sponsoring us. We just thought they'd be great to talk to because they universally have extensive backgrounds in crime solving that they're now trying to implement in a new way. We're also interested in sort of following along. Live with a company that's seeking to introduce this new technology to law enforcement agencies. It's an interesting opportunity to see their trajectory up close. This conversation with Eric was one that I enjoyed very much because it gets very much into why he chose this path and became an ATF agent. Eric talked about the corrosive presence of criminal gangs, how violent crimes that go unsolved can severely harm an entire community, and how new technology like E. Sleuth, can be part of the solution. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
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And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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And this is the Murder Sheet.
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We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.
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The future of crime solving. A conversation with former Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Special Agent in charge Eric Hardin on the lingering harm of unsolved violent crime. Sam, Awesome. Well, to start off with, Eric, thank you so much for joining us today.
- [07:10]
C
And thanks for having me.
- [07:12]
A
Yeah, we're really excited to talk to you and yeah, appreciate you making the time. So I suppose, you know, maybe we can jump off with something super broad. Can you just maybe tell us a little bit about yourself and just in a nutshell and then we can kind of go back and then move forward?
- [07:31]
C
Sure. Where I grew up in Los Angeles, lived in Lynwood, California, neighboring Compton, California, and having grown up in those environments, I was all too familiar with gangs and gang environment and their behavior and their impact on the community and impact on crime. My parents, my aunt and my grandmother who raised my brothers and I made it a point to keep us out of that environment, to keep us on track, namely being disciplined in respecting self, respecting others, respecting community, and respecting property. That said, we attended local elementary schools in South Central. I went on to attend Salesian High School, which is neighboring East Los Angeles, and Boyle Heights, where I excelled academically and in sports. For football, I received multiple recruiting opportunities for the Ivy League to play collegiate football. I ultimately chose to attend Stanford for academic reasons and then pursued a walk on opportunity there. Due to knee injuries from weightlifting, I decided to walk away from football and just focused on my academics and continued my weightlifting efforts as I believe strongly in maintaining some resemblance of exercise and health. And I always had a love for powerlifting and weightlifting. And that developed from an early age. At the age of 10, while on campus, while sitting outside my aunt's classroom who was a teacher and she was conducting a parent teacher conference. And my cousin and I sat there just waiting and talking and she was just on the other side of the door with a parent. And some local thug, if you will, came on campus. He sat by my cousin and I, and I'll keep it short, but ultimately he put a gun and said he wanted our lunch money. And me being a tourist, even at the age of 10, I was stubborn, said no, and my cousin I were the same age. And then the perpetrator proceeded to pull what I know from my experience working with atf, a Larson or Raven semi automatic handgun and said, okay, well get up. At this time it became very real. And my cousin and I, we knew my aunt would just poke out the door to take a look at us because she did that paraly just to make sure that we were safe. But not this time. I guess she was way involved with her parent teacher conference. And this guy, we learned that he was about 19 years of age, a local criminal thug from the neighborhood. He told my cousin I to get up. He proceeded to walk us away from her classroom off campus. And while we're doing this, he said, hey, you know that alley? And we were very familiar with an alley near the school where bodies had been found. So I don't know if that was a veiled threat, but he said, hey, I'm taking you to the alley and I'm shoot you guys, I'm gonna kill you. So, you know, we're, we're just 10 years old, 10 year old boys and we're hoping the priests who we normally saw walk the campus would come out, the principal would come out. But at this particular time, nobody came out to see this, no one. So as we proceeded to be walked off campus, we got further and further and further away from my aunt's classroom. And then we rounded a corner where we're out of line of sight. And once we're out of line of sight, it became more pressing that something or someone or somehow we had to get out of this. So parents who knew us, our classmate parents, they knew that we never left the campus without someone knowing about it. So as this guy is proceeding to push and shove because I kept, we kept taking a few steps and then we would stop I call it cement feet. We took a few steps and I would just stop and he had to nudge us. My cousin was in front of me. So as we got further and further away, we were now outside the campus and we're now facing toward that alley. And at that particular time, my feet were just cemented into the pavement. I did not budge. I was almost like a wobble weevil or weeble wobble. So then he walked in front and he punched me hard in my right eye. And at that particular point in time, a classmate of ours, mom, drove up who knew we never left campus, and said, hey, what's going on? That's when he ran off. We ran back onto campus. We got a hold of my aunt, knocked on the door, she came out. We contacted the principal. They gave me an ice pack for my eye. The sheriff deputies came on campus, took our interview. And then that was that. When I say that was that, that was the beginning of me deciding that, number one, no one would ever do that again. That in spite of your loved ones being that close and that available to intercede, they couldn't or wouldn't for whatever reason. So I learned at an early age that the only person who can be responsible for your safety primarily is yourself. And I carry that onto throughout high school, college, and then ultimately onto my law enforcement career in atf. Because I remember that in spite of my aunt being there, in spite of nuns and priests being on campus, this guy was bold enough to pull a gun and threaten us and attempted to. We're blessed enough that he was successful. That's why I'm here. My cousin are here today because he did threaten to shoot and leave us there for. For debt, that I decided to lift weights. And that's why I started lifting weights. I saved my allowance and then older cousin, a second cousin, first cousin. My parents gave me the balance and I ordered my first set of Joe Weider weightlifting equipment. I started lifting at the age of 10, and I've been lifting ever since. So for over 50 years, I've been lifting weights. And I vowed that no one would ever do that to me or my cousin again or anyone else. So as my aunt, my cousin's mom, reminds me, today is Eric. You've always been a protector. You've always looked out for others. Hence led me to my career in law enforcement. And that's just a snapshot of how it came to be today. Now, after retiring in 2017, I've been blessed by Scott Tomlinson and Bob Batty to join eastleuth where we can, I believe, make an impact with crime as it presents itself today.
- [14:12]
A
Absolutely. I am just so sorry that happened to you. I mean, like, that's. I mean, just genuinely so terrifying. Those. Like the fact that people were so nearby and it still happened.
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B
Yeah.
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C
I mean, it's just weird because you think this isn't going to progress. Somebody's going to come out. And ultimately that happened, but it happened down the road once we're outside the campus when a classmate of ours. Mom drove up. But you, you learn. And I try to pass that on to anyone who's willing to listen or hear that law enforcement, your parents, adults, those who love and care for you are there. But ultimately you have to be responsible for yourself. And there's things you can do to mitigate, to extend your life, if you will, by, I don't know, being fit, thinking things through. I continue to run scenarios through my mind daily, even as a retiree, on what could happen in this situation or that situation. And that's how I prepare and stay prepared. Because you never want to be caught with your pants down. You always want to be prepared to do something. And as I relate to my wife and my two sons, if ever encountered by individuals such as the one that my cousin, I were encountered by, never, ever let them take you anywhere. If they're going to do something, let them do it there. Because once you're gone, it's going to be harder for loved ones, parents, families and law enforcement to find you. The window shrinks each hour that passes. So it's incumbent to just be bold enough and have your faith, your belief that you're going to survive, number one and two, that the perpetrator or perpetrators are not going to take you anywhere. And now you're actually in limbo. You don't know where you are. And it's harder, makes it harder for law enforcement and your loved ones. The secret finds you.
- [16:13]
A
So, gosh, I mean, I'm just so glad that you had that intervention and that you guys had the presence of mind to just run at that point. Just terrifying. And I will. I do want to ask you, though. I mean, this is, you know, this is kind of going back to your childhood and being, Being raised there and not being part of that because you had the family sort of saying, you know, we want to keep away from this stuff, but.
- [16:39]
B
Right.
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A
You know, I. What, in your. In your view and just also just in your professional background, what even prompts people to join a gang or want to kind of pursue that lifestyle? Because I'm sure a lot of people hearing this who don't have any sort of knowledge about that, you know, would be thinking what on earth would, you know, make a 19 year old want to go and possibly kill some 10 year olds like this? And what sort of lifestyle would even lead you to that point? But I guess if you could talk about some of the allure of what that would offer somebody.
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B
Sure.
- [17:15]
A
Down that path almost sure.
- [17:17]
C
From personal experience and then from everything I've learned while being employed with ATF and my interactions with partners from the state and local and other federal agencies, there's always a number of factors. I do know that sometimes it's a matter of wanting to belong. You feel like an outcast or there is no sense of community within your family or neighborhood. So you gravitate toward. Which is false, it's under false pretext. But you gravitate toward this gang, a gang that says, hey, come aboard. Hey, you're one of us. We're going to look after you, we're going to protect you, be about us. So others who are, I believe you're weak in your, your self awareness of who you are, you're insecure, so you go along and now you feel that you're part of a team, if you will, or part of a structure where everybody's believing in, in you and supporting you, when in fact it's all for nefarious reasons. Ultimately, most of the time, individuals like that, once they're caught or once they go to prison or once they're on the outs, those gang members aren't anywhere to be found. So there is no loyalty. It's only up to a point, if you will, if you want to call it loyalty, it's when you're doing the business of the gang, which has nothing to do with you, your identity.
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- [21:25]
C
A number of factors. Another story is I won't Say his name. But he was a classmate of my brother who was a year behind me and very intelligent and smart kid. He had an older brother who was a year but ahead of me, and we all played basketball together in elementary school. And he was from a neighborhood or neighborhoods in South Central, and gangs were prevalent in different neighborhoods in different environment. But he was a very smart and intelligent individual. Well, you fast forward to high school, and I believe it was after I graduated. So it's my brother's senior year, and then a good friend of ours, his junior or sophomore year, they end up taking the bus home. And once you get off the bus, you had a few blocks to walk to get to our friend's home. And as they're walking home, they're encountered by this gang. And this gang, our colors in high school were powder blue and blacks, Lesions, Mustangs. So those were our colors, and those are the colors that my brother and a good family friend were wearing. Not because we're trying to identify, they were trying to identify with a gang. It's because those were the colors of our high school. Well, they're confronted by the gang as they're walking to the home of the friend, and they ask, hey, where you from? Or what set are you from? And of course, number one, stupid, stupid. There's stupidity in that. But they say, we're not from anywhere. We're just going home, basically. And we don't know. My brother, as he relayed the story to me years ago, we didn't. They didn't know what was going to be done, but they were being harassed, bullied, or encountered by this gang. And somehow, some way in the conversation, the name Snoop came up. That was this teammate, classmate of ours who we played basketball with. His nickname was Snoop. He looked like Snoopy. He wore glasses, but just a nice kid. But lo and behold, to us, as we learn he was the leader of that gang. After graduating from elementary onto high school, he became a leader of that gang. And because they knew Snoop, they were let go. So that's why I said there's many factors because we knew his. His mom. I'm not sure if the dad was involved, but Snoop, I'll just say his nickname was a very intelligent, bright kid who did well in school but ultimately became involved in a gang. And then you have others who just. Because that's what their older siblings did or older brother did, that's what the dad did, that's what the grandfather did. So it becomes a pattern, if you will, for them to join these type of gigs. And then sometimes just a product of your environment. Not to say that that's okay because my brother and I grew up in that environment and weren't involved in gangs as well as many of our friends and family members. Yet you have others who are. So I believe you lose a sense of purpose. I believe you lose a sense of identity of who you are. There's maybe a breakdown in how you're perceived as being loved or included, if you will. So you just gravitate toward the next stage of, of individuals, if you will, who will accept you or who you believe, at least on the perception wise, are accepting you. So therefore you're led down that road to the gang life, if you will, and pursuing a life of crime. It's a matter of choice. It always comes down to choice. You can make good choices, you make bad choices. And ultimately I'm thankful that my brothers and I and close family friends made the right choices.
- [25:17]
A
Absolutely. But it's, it's so tragic that, you know, it's a, it's a bad choice. But at the same time, you have kids who might have a lot of potential or they have, you know, they're kind, they're smart, but they get in on this and then, you know, I mean, not really any good results from that for them.
- [25:36]
C
Right. At least sometimes. Because that same kid, Snoop, many years later, when my aunt who was a teacher now working at a bank teller, and this has to be at least 15, 15 years from today, this Snoop walks up and remember, hey, Mrs. Robinson. Hey, how are you? And she remembered him and he at the time was an employee of either Lockheed Martin or one of the other space companies. So he apparently left the gang life at some point and then pursued or got back on track and following up on positive in his life, if you will, and was now a, what perceived to be a reputable citizen living normally in society. So, so there are good ways or good in end points, I guess, if you will, to those who do get involved in that type of lifestyle, they do find a way out and better themselves and then some, you know, they just remain. And they remain down that dark road.
- [26:46]
A
Absolutely. Well, I'm really glad he got out of it. That's, that's good.
- [26:49]
C
So am I, because I always liked him.
- [26:51]
A
Yeah, he sounds like a cool guy. But that's, that's great too. I mean that's, that's a lot of success at a big company like that. So I do want to ask you, you know, it sort of sounds like this, this situation and that horrifying incident you described, you know, you know, sort of like that protective instinct being a good fit for law enforcement. But can I go back and ask you how, how did you go from sort of Stanford University to determining that the ATF was going to be the best, you know, fit for your talents or in kind of pursuing that goal?
- [27:24]
C
Great question. When I enter Stanford, I entered as a civil engineering major. At least that's what I thought I wanted to be. I wanted to go into civil engineering and do whatever as far as building or helping to build structures. And then I stumbled onto, well, number one, I found taking physics, chemistry, upper level calculus, all very overwhelming. Toward the end of my sophomore year I took a sociology course and it was just part of my curriculum at the time to fulfill units and meet the requirements at Stanford. And I liked it, it was studying behaviors. So at the end of my sophomore year I switched from civil engineering to sociology and I spent my next two years, junior, senior year, basically taking any and all sociology courses that were offered at Stanford to the degree that Stanford at the time offered a co term program which meant you could do a fifth year and get your master's while incorporated with your four year undergrad. Well, because I had taken basically extensively all sociology courses that could be offered. My advisor told me you could retake some of the courses to get your masters, but I think it would be a, it wouldn't be good spending cost return, meaning you already took the class, you're paying for classes, you're already taken as an undergrad. So I forgot the pursuit of my master's and I stuck with sociology. Well, I found sociology to be very interesting because he studied behavior, studied the attitude, disposition of people and I, I focus my, my studies on deviant behavior. At that point I tried to, I wanted to pursue a degree in criminology or criminal justice. Stanford didn't offer one. So the next best thing and closest to that was sociology with a strong focus on deviant behavior. So that's what I did. And I liked it. It became easy, it became intriguing, it became interesting. And with that it drew me toward law enforcement. Initially I knew nothing about atf. Never heard of it, not one. I had no clue of what ATF was. I did go through an interview with the CIA on campus. It was interesting to go through that interview phase. And I decided based on everything that I was learning that that wasn't for me, that that was a little bit too structured or too, I don't know how to put it because I don't want to be put it out there, but basically that wasn't for me. So then when I graduated, I pursued a number of law enforcement agencies that actually turned me down. I would go through the. The hiring process, I would do the physical. I would do the. The background check and everything. And then ultimately I learned. I learned all of this after the fact, after I got on with ATF through my interactions with other law enforcement agencies. But I applied with several in the Bay Area, as well as here in Southern California. And ultimately, when I got to my oral interview, I failed. And I never could understand how did I fail my oral interview? I said, I must not be saying something right or whatever. So I said, hey, big deal. I moved on. So when I graduated from Stanford, I was already working security for your concert scenes. And then I transferred back home and continued working for that same security company in Los Angeles. But during that time, over three years, I applied to various law enforcement agencies, and each and every one, I'd pass the first, second, third phase and be in the top 10. But ultimately, they failed. My. Failed me at the oral stage. So I said, fine. Close friends knew about atf, and they knew about my wanting to seek employment with law enforcement. So they said, hey, apply with atf. A good friend of mine who worked on my crew that was a supervisor in security while we're working the foreign parking lot in Inglewood, California, he said, hey, I think I have a cousin who works in dea, ats, FBI somewhere. Would you mind giving me your resume and I'll give it to her? Well, ultimately her, she was an ATF agent. And he hand walked my resume to her. And April, Carol's her name. April Freud was her maiden name at the time. She got me an interview, and I go in for the interview, and she thought I did well. But two weeks later, she contacted me and said, hey, you failed. Or they said, you're not going to fit into ATF undercover scheme. So sorry, I thought you were great. But. So at that particular point in time, it had been three years. I was at my last stage, at least for me. I decided I'm only going to apply to one or two more agencies, and if it doesn't work out, I'm going to go back and get my master's and pursue a teaching route and teach at the college level in criminology or sociology. Well, at that point in time, I had a running application also with lapd. And while going through the process with lapd, I was recontacted by April. And she said, hey, are you still interested in a job with atf, I said, of course I am. So I went back in. I interviewed solely this time, just with the special Agent in charge. And then I was hired. And July 1, 1990, was the first day I started out with ATF. And I began my career learning, interacting with a number of the agencies who had turned me down. And that's when I heard and learned. They said, hey, ultimately, from our perspective, the higher ups feared you with your Stanford degree would move up too soon or too quickly in our agency and possibly compete for upper level management. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what I was told by pretty much all the agencies I had applied with that turned me down. And my response was, I was just looking for a job to be an officer to investigate violent crime and put bad guys in jail. That was my sole purpose. It wasn't to take this job or that job. I was just looking to get in the door and affect violent crime. So that was the beginning. And ultimately I ended up with 27 and a half years with ATF, retiring as a Special Agent in charge here in Los Angeles, and had great partnerships and collaboration with lapd, LA County Sheriff's Department, Inglewood pd, Downey pd, a number of all the municipalities in and throughout Los Angeles, Riverside, Orange County. And I believe ultimately I made the right choice because open doors and allow me to work not only for a good organization like atf, but to work with and interact with many and more of the agencies that turned me down initially.
- [34:42]
A
Wow. They were like, intimidated by you?
- [34:45]
C
That's right. Here. I don't know. I don't try to be intimidating unless I need to. But as far as for the job, I just wanted to a foot in the door to become an officer and affect violent crime. But those that I work with, detectives and agents and officers who say, hey, why didn't you apply with us? And I said, I did apply with you. You guys were the first on my list and you guys turned me down. So there you go.
- [35:08]
B
Oh, man.
- [35:09]
A
What are some of the. I mean, it sounds like you've done so much work with the ATF over time. And I think I mentioned I looked up some of the cases you worked on on Newspapers.com, but can you tell us a little bit about the sort of work you were doing, you know, for the ATF and sort of, you know, like undercover, things like that, you know, you know, running operations, you know, what did sort of that tenure look like? And what are some things that sort of stand out for You When I.
- [35:33]
C
First came on July 1990, there weren't very many minorities, blacks in ATF. So a number of were hired at that particular point in time. Not necessarily just to do undercover, but that was a main focus. And typically you go to two academies, CI, which is the first general academy, and then nat, the more specialized academy that teaches you more of the intricacies and specialties of atf. And only after that time, typically do you do undercover. Well, I started doing on the COVID before I went to my first academy and I was doing undercover not just for ATF, but for other agencies because the assistant special agent in charge at the time thought I was for some reason good at undercover or would be good at undercover and would offer my or ATF assistance with undercover with other departments or agencies. So for my first two years, a little bit before, until the supervisor was told, hey, Harden has to go to academy first before he can do undercover because you're going to put us in a jam. So I did a little bit undercover before I went to my first academy. I was pushed ahead so I could go to my first academy, come back and then now be within policy to do undercover, if you will. So I went to my first academy and. And then it was months later that I went to my second academy because ATF wanted to get me through and maybe others like me so we could be ready to do undercover for ETFs. So I went to both my academies. I think I was done started in June, I was done with both academies by December. So by January I was a full fledged agent no longer or at least at the end of my probationary period. But I was doing pretty much nothing but undercover my first two years in atf, buying narcotics and firearms from criminal street gangs, Hispanic and black, primarily in and throughout Los Angeles and neighboring in the neighboring county. Did that for two years. I didn't like doing undercover, but I just based upon feedback, I was good at it. And oftentimes I tell people the story. I'm driving, followed by my cover team. I'm driving and talking to myself. Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Why am I doing it? I don't want to be doing it. I don't. I hate bad guys. I hate bad guys. What are we doing? And then once I put the car in park, turn off the ignition, you get out and you go into roll and you get out. Hey, what's up, homie? What's happening? What's going on? So you learned it's an acting position, so to speak. You learn to take on the behavior or the attributes of those you encounter. You want them to feel comfortable with you. And I did it to the best of my ability. And I ended up buying narcotics and firearms from the criminal element or criminal street gangs. As I said in and throughout Los Angeles. My undercover was the quick hits. And I call it that meaning get in and get out. I never did any long term infiltrations where like many of the guys that I've supervised or work with who in our Mongols investigation, I'm jumping ahead a little bit, but they were in for two or three years solid. Meaning they're just in and act, acting and rolling with and living with and partying with the bad guys 24 7. I did not do that under that type of undercover minds were going out, meeting with the bad guys, getting the contraband and then going back to the office and then come up the next deal. The next deal. So I did that for two years. After two years it got old and I decided it was enough. I wanted to conduct my own investigation. So then pursued my own investigation as a trained ATF agent. Now working as an investigator on gang criminal street gangs, our firearm traffickers or dope and firearms traffickers. I did that for a good two or three years. And then during that time I also went through the training and made became a member an operator on our special response team which is the equivalent of swat. I did that for a year and a half to two years and that was great. We affected the high risk warrants for atf. At the time we had division teams where we at least LA were responsible for Phoenix, New Mexico, Los Angeles and a few other neighboring states since evolved where now we have regional teams but we basically went out. We're still responsible for our own cases. At the same time we're part of our special response team operators that affected the high risk warrants for atf. So I did that, as I said for a period of time and then out of the need of the division, but also me needing a change. I got into operations and I worked senior operations where you're dealing with the internal workings of the division and and dealing with bureau headquarters as well as the supervisors in the field. You're almost like the hub of the division dealing with administrative, investigative and operational issues for the division, for the agents, for the investigators to ensure that the operation is running smoothly. You're almost like a high profile assistant to the assistant special agent in charge, if we had two, and the special agent in charge. And you're also working just beneath the division operations officer, he or she is the one who oversees operations for the division. And I actually promoted or elevated to that position a few years later. So in totality, I worked operations for, I believe, nine or 10 years in Los Angeles. And during that time, the special agent charge would send me out periodically to fill in for a group supervisor. So I got supervisory experience. That's where I believe you saw the photo of myself and others standing in front of a church arson. I supervised our arson explosive group and did oversee the investigation of several arson church arsons at the time. One I recall out in San Luis Obispo and a few others I believe locally in the Los Angeles riverside area. So between going back and forth and supervising special different groups and doing operations, it came to a point where the specialty in charge sent me out to Riverside for four months to oversee that group. So I supervised our Riverside field office for four or five months, returned back to the division, and ultimately I put in and was selected for our Van Nuys field office. There is where I now was considered the resident agent in charge. Because any group outside the division is considered a residential office versus a group office. But you're still basically a group supervisor there. I supervise our Van Nuys field office. And pretty much we're responsible for any and all violent crime associated with that area of responsibility. And that's the position of all the groups. Our Santa Ana office, Long Beach. You're responsible to work with your state and local counterparts to affect, again, violent crime. From Van Nuys, I was recruited to Bureau headquarters, where I did not want to go. I fought, I fought, I thought. And it was only after 10 months of being in position as a group supervisor, Iraq and Van Nuys. So I felt I needed more time in the field. The powers that be decided otherwise. So I went kicking and screaming, literally, to bureau headquarters. In 2003, I was assigned to field management. Staff wrote policy and developed initiatives for the Bureau. That's where Scott and I develop our bond, our friendship, because we are hand in hand, as he was the chief of Firearms program and me a program manager in field ops, to write and implement and execute initiatives to affect, again, violent crime. So Scott and I worked hand in hand. We walk down and we're always at main justice meetings. Weekly meeting with main justice attorneys to give them insight into how ATF function and the things that we had on the table also, so they could learn more about what we did and how we did to hopefully allow them to be in a position to speak on behalf of. Of ATF and Get us more funding so that we could be more effective in our endeavors in affecting violent crime. So I did that for two years writing policy and initiatives for the Bureau. And then ultimately I returned to Los Angeles as a group supervisor of our Major Case Group. And our Major Case Group handled high profile investigations. And in my Major Case group we ran five at one time, which is, I was not speaking on behalf of me, but my agents were phenomenal. We had the Hawaiian Gardens investigation, the Rolling 30s investigation, Florencia Mongols, and I'm missing one, Aryan Brothers. So those are our top five investigations. Typically you have a major case, all agents are working at one case. In my group we had five major cases. So there was collaboration and inter agent cooperation to work all five of those cases at one time or at least during the same period, while also working with our counterparts in federal with DEA that were very instrumental in the forensic case with one of my agents, lapd, LA Sheriffs, and Monte Bello PD with our Mongoose investigation. So this brings me to the point where partnership and collaborations allows you to achieve and succeed. ATF's always been small since becoming a bureau in 1972 to date, and maybe even, maybe even smaller now with the way things are going. But ATF never grew. I like to equate it to. At a time, San Antonio PD had 2,500 agents in 2003, 2005. ATF had 25 agents to work the whole country in 2003, 2005. So ATF is very small but very effective. And we're very effective because of our partnerships and our collaborations with our state and local counterparts and our federal counterparts. We're able to, and we don't mind, as we say, to get down in the trenches, get our hands and feet dirty, to affect violent crime, to go after the bad guy, to identify target, investigate, search and arrest and then seek prosecution, ultimately disrupting that violent behavior, that violent entity that wreak havoc upon the community. So then I elevated and then I became the Supervisor Intelligence Unit for a while. I then elevated and became the Assistant Special in Charge in Los Angeles for a year and a half or two, went to San Francisco where I was the interim Special Agent in Charge overseeing a special project where we targeted identify the worst of the worst in the Bay Area. And then I returned to Los Angeles where I began my career as the seating or sitting Special Agent in charge in 2015-2017, when I retired in that December. So that's pretty much a nutshell of my history in ATF and working with my My partners in law enforcement.
- [47:35]
B
Wow.
- [47:36]
A
I mean, you did everything. And I mean like, that's such a comprehensive, like set of experiences over time. And I want to ask some questions based on sort of that and sort of the generalities of what. And the first one would just be, you know, what can you tell us about the, the culture within atf? It sounds like collaboration is super important and being versatile and being able to deal with some of these different challenges, even as a smaller agenc. But you know, as someone who was in IT for so long, what did you sort of learn about the culture within?
- [48:07]
C
I've learned that being a small agency, oftentimes we're overlooked or we don't have the voice that's needed to command presence. And it often takes an individual, individuals who are willing to speak up on behalf of atf, to let our partners know that, hey, we, we are a valuable asset. We can attribute and contribute to investigations without coming in and being bold to say, hey, that we are the lead. We're not arrogant. ATF's not arrogant. There is no ego as far as an agency. Of course there's egos within, but as an agency, no. ATF in my experience was always the type of agency that was willing to compromise. Always there to give support to our local counterparts. Be it with funding through asset forfeiture or just resources, we operate it and function to achieve. And we did that in many times with a task force setting. With that task force setting, ATF was the lead and we invited agencies, organizations to take part with us. And I can say in my career, especially as a supervisor, that's how we kicked ass, if you will. I had strong, intelligent, smart, hardworking agents coupled with the same from our state and local counterparts. Detectives from Montebello, PD from the Sheriff's department, from lapd. They come in, they're cross designated. If you will get ATF credentials to work as ATF agents with us, they're given computers, given vehicles, given radios, given everything that an agent gets to function and operate as an agent with us. So when you supervise a group now I believe they're down to two or four agents at a time. The standard is 10, 1 and 1, 10 agents, one assistant or secretary and then the supervisor. It's rare that ATF had that. We would have maybe seven agents, a supervisor, an assistant, or six or eight. It was rare that an LA office had 10 agents. But with that, when you have your state and local counterparts coming in cross designated, it's the force multiplier effect. So now in my group Where I have eight agents, I have six to eight task force officers also involved. So now I have a group of 15 or 20. And because of their ties with their department and their department ties with other departments, that's where the force multiplying comes in, where you're able to partner, collaborate and basically be a vehicle to leverage those, gain resources against violent crime. And I can say we were very successful in doing that in the five cases I identified earlier from the major case group as well as in others. Because I always preached and always stood on the fact that everyone brings something to the table regardless of time on the job, what agency you're involved in, what college you went to prior to, or what college you didn't go to prior to. That everyone has experience, skill sets, or just life encounters that deliver something that we can all learn from. And you put all those things on the table, extract, discuss, compromise, and now you come up with a valuable toolbox that you can use collectively to again affect violent crime. And that's what we did day in and day out. ATF agents, for the most part, as I believe in most agencies, you'll work to the core. When I was a young agent, we didn't look to or look for the days off. We were willing to work as many hours as we could, as long as we could. We played too. But at the same time it was fun just to be around each other and going out and getting the bad guy or the bad girl or the badger organization. It was just key for us. And when you're around like minded individuals like that, the job becomes more than a job. It becomes something that you actually are cohesively involved in, working toward the same end goal of putting as many bad guys and girls behind bars as possible, making communities and neighborhoods safer, and then going home at the end of the day knowing that you did a great job.
- [52:54]
A
Awesome. I, I do want to ask you, this is such a broad question, but you know, and you had so many years there, what were some trends in violent crime that you sort of saw and patterns that you sort of saw develop over the years that sort of are top of mind for you?
- [53:12]
C
Well, the most recent that comes to mind is the ghost guns. That was toward, more toward the end of my career. But it was a matter of these guns that had no serial numbers, no make models, no identifiers on them being created or manufactured by individuals and found in the possession of the criminal element. And why that trend? Because it makes it very difficult when you have an agency like ours, atf that prides itself on tracing. There's no other agency that does it. None. ATF is the only agency that conducts tracing. Full tracing of firearms where. And tracing is basically following the origin of that firearm. And with that, you can often determine or at least begin your investigation on who possessed and why without any of those identifiers with the ghost guns or the 80 percenters, whatever the different names you want to call it, you're not able to do that. So that was a trend that developed where ATF had to remove, maneuver, and figure out ways to gain access to that environment or that entity. And we did it through undercover. You go out, you meet with, I mean, and also utilizing informants, you. You gain the intelligence from the streets as best you can, either from informants, from your officers who come into contact with criminals on a daily basis from their FI cards, or just from keeping your ears to the ground on what you're hearing from the community. So you go out and you have your undercover or your confidential informants make contact, and you engage in those conversations to gain more and more information about the ghost guns and why it's a trend, because when you encounter something like that, again, when you compartmentalize, I think you're doing a disservice to the community, number one, and then your law enforcement partners, because now here's something that you know exists. So you want to spread the word, but oftentimes with that one, spreading the word about this new. This nuance, this new thing, ghost guns, I found not so much the law enforcement agency, but maybe the console or the community leaders, they want to deny that it exists in their area. It n. That's not our problem, or that's a California problem. We don't have that problem here in Texas or we don't have that problem here in Miami. That's your problem. Well, as I had a discussion with a former director, everything comes back to Los Angeles. Everything comes back to California. Somehow, some way, fashion or form, there's a connection to California. And lo and behold, today, ghost guns are across the country. It wasn't a phenomenon that only existed in California. It was something that caught on like wildfire. And now you can find ghost guns in different parts of the country. Just because once a trend develops and the bad guys see that there's an opportunity, they collaborate and partner. So why shouldn't we? They spread the word, and it becomes a money thing. I found that in law enforcement, at least in the types of cases that we investigated, there's always money behind everything. Even when you find gang members that are at odds with one another, who basically are enemies when it comes down to making money that's set aside. And you will have entities that you normally think would not partner and collaborate with will just for the sake of the money that's being made or could be made trafficking or moving that commodity or that contraband across the country. And that comes into play with human trafficking, narcotics trafficking, firearms for sure, firearms trafficking in other aspects of violent crime.
- [57:11]
A
So you might have gangs that are rivals or even like have, you know, like racial hatred towards one another, but they'll do business because everyone's getting something.
- [57:21]
C
That's the money involved. I like to watch TV dramas are, that involve law enforcement and the mayor of Kingstown. I watched that and they show that, they show how the different factions will collaborate. And it's all about the money, the mighty dollar. So. And I found that show very interesting because it's more true to life than some of the shows that we see on tv. So I, I gravitate toward, I like crime drama shows, period. But that was one that I really liked off of Paramount plus. So not promoting Paramount plus, but it's one of the shows I liked the Mayor King style. Great show.
- [58:03]
A
Shout out. Jeremy Renner, right?
- [58:07]
C
Yes, yes. Who I think is excellent in that. So fun.
- [58:10]
A
I, I, you know, that's so interesting that you say that. And like, I, you know, I did want to ask you this though, because it kind of circles a little bit back to the beginning. But, you know, when we're talking about a community, what does it mean and how does it impact a community? When violent crime is occurring but is not being investigated, or not being investigated properly or not being prosecuted?
- [58:33]
C
When violent crimes aren't properly investigated, communities experience a cascading effect of harm that extends far beyond the initial incident. Trust in law enforcement erodes, creating a climate where witnesses become reluctant to come forward and victims feel abandoned by the very systems meant to protect them. This investigative gap sends a dangerous message that violence has no consequences, emboldening offenders and creating cycles of retaliation. Economically, businesses relocate, property values decline, and the community's social fabric begins to unravel as residents lose faith in their collective safety. So that's what happens when violent crime is investigated properly. Again, I believe it's disservice. I understand why it happens. It shouldn't. But it's a disservice when agencies don't share intelligence or information. Many operate in silos, cone of silence, if you will. And some units within agencies operate that way because there's a lack of trust or, or faith that the intel information is going to be used correctly or not abused or it won't open doors to OPSEC issues. So those things have to be considered. But at the same time, we're law enforcement and I think we're only going to begin to leverage and overcome and conquer violent crime when we begin to open up and share and collaborate more. Because the fourth multiplier effect, one department can do only what one department can do, but two departments can do a lot more, and then three, then four, then five. So if the collaboration's there, it can be done. It takes work, it takes effort. When we took down our second Mongols case in 2008, we did over a hundred search and arrest warrants in five states, all done at the same time. And that was done because we had, I believe, over 4,500 or 5,000 officers, detectives, deputies from different departments, all working together to collaborate, to partner, to recognize that it was going to take that type of effort to go out and harness everything that we have as law enforcement officials to affect. And we did it successfully with no incidents and we're able to take down the Mongols in 2008. So it can be done. We did it. ATF was the lead, but we couldn't have done it without our partners. So again, for our communities to feel safe, to be safe, law enforcement is going to have to come together. And not to say some do right now, but I think we do, we can do a better job. We're going to have to come together. And that means, and I'm not trying to promote us, it's just a fact. Working with companies like East Luth or our Niban counterparts or us, I forget their name now, but formerly ShotSpotter is utilizing any and all technologies and agencies. It's every, it's, it's, there's a, there's mounds of information, intelligence and experience that can be gleaned to overcome and leverage against violent crime, leverage against the criminal because they know no boundaries. They go from state to state, community to community. So the only way, an effective way to deal with them is to share and collaborate with intelligence and information so you can effectively identify, target, investigate and arrest and seek prosecution, which ultimately disrupts it. Disrupt that behavior, that environment.
- [62:42]
A
Absolutely. And I do want to ask you, I guess as far as E. Sleuth goes, can you tell me a little bit more about what drew you to the company and wanting to sort of work with them? And then the follow up question is, you know, where do you see the potential for helping Law enforcement achieve some of these goals through companies like that.
- [63:02]
C
Well, it all comes back to Scott Thomason.
- [63:05]
A
Yeah, Scott's awesome.
- [63:07]
C
Yes, I work with Scott, as I said, Imperial Headquarters. But before COVID he and I worked together with another company, and Scott brought me on board, and I was a year. Maybe a year or so retired at the time, and Scott called me, and he introduced that company to me and said, hey, Brick, come aboard. I said, no, I think I. And I'm not exact. Scott called me at least three times. So I said, no, Scott, I'm happily retired. No, not interested. Thanks for thinking of me, but no. It was that fourth time he called me, and I remember I pulled off the road, I was driving, I sat in the parking lot, and I listened, and I said, okay, Scott, I'm on board. And that company was Forensic Logic. And what it did was. Is basically a Google platform for law enforcement. It allowed law enforcement to basically use this technology and Google punch in, hey, Eric Harden, and then you get any and all information available. Eric Garden, so you can begin your investigation. I thought that was noteworthy because, again, it was a platform designed for law enforcement, so to make the job more easier and effective for the officers on the street. So, years later, I believe it was last September, because right after Covid, I was done with Forensic Logic. So then I went back to being fully retired. So then last September, Scott calls me and he says, hey, it's time to get the band together.
- [64:36]
A
Oh, God, he won't let you retire.
- [64:39]
C
I said, what is it now, Scott? Hey, just listen. So he. He and I talked for a little bit, and he sent me the podcast he did with you guys, the murder sheet, and he said, hey, when you have time, listen to it. I listened to it, and then that was the beginning of me learning about East Loose, Inc. And what got me wasn't just a matter of Scott. I. I have the utmost respect for Scott. I like what he does. I like the way he thinks. I like his drive, his perseverance, his diligence, and dedication to fighting violent crime. But for East Luth particularly, what grabbed me was the fact that it was a platform designed by law enforcement for law enforcement. That's number one, because it sets it apart from other platforms that may seem like it or may seem like they can do the same thing. But the difference is it's not designed by law enforcement, and it's not designed by law enforcement for law enforcement. So that's what makes it distinctly different than other types of technology that may resemble or sound like it. But the most important fact was that it was created to solve unsolved violent crime, namely those that involve kidnappings, murders, rapes, human trafficking, which affect the community wholeheartedly, affect families. So that's what sold me, that if this was a platform or a product that could bring, as we say, closure to families and solace the victims, and I was gung ho, ready to partake and be involved in it, because I had. I haven't, or at least hadn't to that point, heard of any platform like it. I hadn't heard of any technology that helps solve unsolved, other than nibin, by connecting the dots through ballistic imaging found at different locations. And I believe wholeheartedly that East Loof is. That it's the NIBAN equivalent, but on a different perspective. That it, as Scott says, it'll take unknown evidence or information and give you viable leads to help expedite and solve the unsolved violent crimes. Because there's many that sit out there on shelves or just unaffected because either the leads aren't there or they just went dry. And now I know, just having been involved in personal experiences myself and with others, close family members and close family friends, that that's not acceptable. And I do know when you can bring closure to someone, it means a lot. And if eastleuth can do that, then I told Scott that I'm all for it. So that's. That's what sold me, and that's why I'm involved, to do my part to just spread the word, get chiefs or decision makers at least to the table, to at least hear and see the presentation or see or hear the demonstration, to see if they find value in it. Because I believe if I find value in it, then I believe they would. Because it's a product that's not designed to help anyone get rich. It's a product that's designed to help law enforcement agencies do exactly what we all swear to do when we come on the job to protect and serve. And this carries forward in allowing law enforcement to again bring closure to those cases that have. That have sat for 5, 10, 15, 20 years plus that possibly could be solved or bring solace to victims who were victimized by a perpetrator. And if you know law enforcement, if you know crime, pretty much if those responsible for those unsolved cases are out there and you can solve these cases, you will affect future cases, because pretty much there's a pool of offenders that create violent crime that affect violent crime. And if you arrest those, identify and arrest and target those individuals, I believe, just based upon my experience, you will affect future crime. Those people will be removed from society. And that's just another check mark, a plus for law enforcement.
- [69:16]
A
And you're letting communities know that they're important and that, you know, lives matter. And, you know, this person who was murdered, we didn't forget about them maybe.
- [69:24]
C
Exactly.
- [69:25]
A
Even if the perpetrator's dead and there's no court case, we can identify what happened and it shows.
- [69:31]
C
Exactly. Right. Who wouldn't want to know that?
- [69:34]
A
Right, right.
- [69:35]
C
Even as an investigator, I would know. Hey, we finally identified so and so who was responsible not only for this murder, but for the other 10 in five other states or for this rape or this kidnapping or this trafficking, whatever. Why wouldn't you want to do that?
- [69:52]
A
Yeah, and Scott and I were talking about that where it was like, you know, you oftentimes, I mean, sometimes you might have a sole perpetrator and that's all they ever did be responsible for other violent act. So you can end up clearing a whole bunch at once. And, you know, I mean, just so people know and tell me if I'm wrong, because that would be super embarrassing and I would not want to be. But like, you know, this is, this is an AI sort of service that, you know, a big part of it is proposing actionable next steps for a case by taking the data in there and saying, okay, has anyone followed up with this person?
- [70:31]
C
Right, Correct. It doesn't create data. It takes in the existing data. We call it evidence. It's evidently based. Takes in the evidence and then sifts through it and, and looks at it and says, hey, this hasn't been done, or this should have been done or that was done, but this hasn't been done. It provides actionable leads or pointer, pointers for the investigator so he or she can now systematically go out, follow through and do the things that may possibly break the case or may identify the perpetrator or perpetrators or identify the last location of the victim or the, the current, the current location of the victim. It's a lead generator taken from existing evidence, evidence from the case. So it does not create. It analyzes and gives pointers to what should be done. Because the human person can get everything. As much as we try, we're not perfect. We're not going to get any. And everything that needs to be done in an investigation or in anything outside of investigation. It's just not feasible. But it's a tool. Again, this is a tool that allows the investigator to do his or her job more efficiently and more effectively. There's these many, as Scott says, virtual investigators working behind the scenes 247 that. That is humanly impossible to do. We need time to sleep, to rest, to eat or whatever, to enjoy life. We don't work 24 7. But these little virtual investigators will, and they do. And they don't complain. And you don't have to feed them. You just let them work. And then as they're working and uncover additional information, they call you, hey, Eric, did you consider doing this? Or hey, were you aware of the following? Now I can go out and follow them on something that I didn't consider or forgot about or failed to even look at. It gives you viable leads, actionable leads that can lead to possible closure or identify perpetrators that are involved in the incident.
- [72:52]
A
Yeah, when you say the tiny little investigators, I imagine literal, like tiny detectives around, borrow, Borrower style. But I will, I will say in all seriousness, you know, I think one nice thing about this though, is that it doesn't remove the human checks and balances. Because, I mean, when AI is implemented in some other spaces, you know, you start seeing it hallucinate or get stuff wrong or you look something. I know that's not right, but in this situation, it's just suggesting things. And it's like the humans have to go and then run with it. It's not, it's not just, oh, here's the bad guy. It's like, okay, here's some things you can do to get closer and that haven't been done yet as far as we can see in the file. And then the human investigator can use their own discretion and discernment to sort of make those things happen that need to happen. I think it's great. I mean, I, and again, I say this as someone who's a pretty big skeptic in other areas, but something like this, it's sort of foolproof, I guess. One thing I did want to ask you though. Have you had. Do you feel like when you're having communications with some of these powers that be or chiefs or whatnot, are they, are they getting it? Has it been successful so far in terms of kind of convincing them of the use case here, or has it been difficult because it's kind of new? I, I'm just curious how, how's that been going?
- [74:08]
C
In my opinion, it could go a lot better from my vantage point. You. You reach out, you. I'm just going to put it to me. I reach out via text, email, phone calls, and there's an introduction involve followed up with the purpose. The purpose of my reach is for the following reason and it is to introduce E sleuth and introduce this technology that I believe it's beneficial or could be beneficial to their department. And just the human side of it. I know people are resistive to change. And then there's also the funding factor. How much is this going to cost? Or, or hey, you're just another one of these agencies that we already heard from. Whatever. Well, we're not. And I think if we can get past the gatekeepers, and that's what I call them, and they're there for a reason. Because chiefs are busy. Yeah, they're trying to affect violent crime and other crimes for their department. They're looking after all their officers and agents and detectives and the different units within. So I understand that. But I also believe having been the special agent in charge and ATF also busy with a myriad of things, that there's a point in time when I felt that I needed to sit back, take a breath and hear and listen to something that could be beneficial to not so much for me, but to my people. I've always been people oriented, looking out for my people. Will this or can this or how can this make job the job easier for my people so they can do their jobs better, more efficiently, easier and still maintain focus and drive. So that said, I just wish I even pray about it that, that, that there would be some matter of taking the opportunity to listen for 15, 20 minutes. That's all we need. And if you find value, then great. If you don't, we walk away. We leave you alone. But I believe as some of the agencies verdict presented to, once they hear and see, they do see the value in it. And then now we work to see how we can get our platform in your department so you can start using it. So that's after the fact. But so far everyone that I've been a part of the presentations with, they see the value and we get positive feedback that yep, we can see how this is different than what we saw with that company or how it was presented from that company. We see how this was built by law enforcement, for law enforcement. So we see the difference, we recognize the difference. However, we aren't the decision makers. So there's a tough road. But I believe we'll crack it. Because when something's good and useful and beneficial, ultimately it surfaces and people buy into it. It may be hard at the beginning. If it wasn't hard, everybody would do it. So I accept the challenge. Scott accepts the challenge. Bob, Mike and all the other colleagues involved, we accept that challenge. But it does become disheartening at times knowing that the value is there, that the technology is here now. And I hear Chief say this in the little presentations on LinkedIn, that regardless of how we feel about it, AI is here and it is, AI is here. So they're going to have to decide how they're going to embrace it and utilize it to be effective in their departments. And what I'm trying to let them know is, hey, here's one right now. You don't have to look at a hundred, here's one. And just take our word from it. Because we were in law enforcement, we sat where you're sitting. You can take this technology and take our word, put us to tasks so we can show you how it will benefit you. But I'm telling you, it exists as real. And this can better your department, better your output in what we all, like I said swear on to do, affect violent crime, to leverage everything that we have, resources, technology, manpower, woman, power, whatever, power, all resources against the bad guy. Because every day that we sit back haggling and going back and forth and, and, well, saying maybe or him and Han, the bad guy's progressing. He or she is committing more crimes and affecting somebody's life. And that's not acceptable. So why not at least take the time to listen and hear and see if there's value? That's all it's going to take. You don't have to pay for it. Just set aside 15, 20 minutes for E sleuth colleagues to come in and present and we'll do it via Zoom. We don't have to take up your time and space at your department. We will do it via Zoom, which is quicker and more efficient for everybody. And then that way you can see if there's value and then we decide the next steps after that makes sense.
- [79:19]
A
And it's, it's a situation where, I mean, AI can be so powerful and implementing it in a way that doesn't affect any civilians rights and doesn't, you know, get officers in trouble or, you know, mess up cases, but in a way that's kind of just a pretty, you know, like, yeah, this is common sense and would possibly help, especially with cold cases, which is a big passion of Kevin and mine. You know, those cold cases that it would be maybe, maybe the original lead detective is dead. You don't have that resource to say, okay, no, like you might, this might be something that really makes a difference. Eric, this has been so Wonderful. I do want to throw it to you though. Is there anything you wanted to talk about? About your career? About what you're doing now with Eastleuth? About anything about crime in general violence?
- [80:06]
C
I just want to say this and then I'll elaborate on it a little bit, that criminal activity doesn't respect municipal boundaries. So our response shouldn't either. Meaning we shouldn't just sit back and say, hey, my department is busy enough dealing with what we have. We don't have time for that. Make time. Regional coordination allows for resource sharing, intelligence integration and consistent enforcement strategies across jurisdictions. This approach prevents the displacement effect where crime simply moves from one area to another. Joint task forces force multiplying shared databases and coordinated community programs create a more comprehensive response that criminal organizations find harder to circumvent. That's what we're trying to do, make it harder for the criminal and easier for us. Success requires overcoming institutional silos and building trust between agencies that may have historically operated independently. We have to come together collectively in law enforcement. And if you have people like us who worked in law enforcement, who are now part of the general community, who are no longer in law enforcement, but working in companies or businesses that promote law enforcement, I say it's a win win. Because we weren't done. Scott and I weren't done and our counterparts and colleagues weren't done. We want to see law enforcement have leverage, have the edge over the criminal element. And the best way to do that, I see, is to force multiply. And force multiplying now includes E Sleuth technology.
- [81:57]
A
Amazing. Well, Eric, thank you so much. It was delightful talking to you and we really appreciate you taking the time.
- [82:04]
C
It's been a pleasure. Thank you for giving me this opportunity in this platform. I appreciate it.
- [82:09]
A
Absolutely. Thank you so much to Eric for taking the time to talk to us. We'll be including more information about E. Sleuth in our show Notes.
- [82:17]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [82:37]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [83:01]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [83:12]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.
- [83:42]
B
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A
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A
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