Murder Sheet: The Future of Crime Solving

A Conversation with Former Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Deputy Assistant Director Bernard J. Zapor

Podcast Date: September 18, 2025

Overview

In this compelling episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee sit down with Bernard J. Zapor, a former Deputy Assistant Director of the ATF. The discussion dives deep into Zapor's fascinating career—including his extensive undercover work, views on mass shootings, reflections on political and social violence, and his current involvement with E Sleuth AI, a platform designed to revolutionize crime-solving through artificial intelligence. The episode also explores the systemic factors contributing to violent crime and the evolution of investigative techniques in law enforcement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Bernard J. Zapor’s Backstory and Career Trajectory

• Formative Moment: Attempted Assassination of President Ford

  • As a child, Zapor witnessed the 1975 attempted assassination of President Gerald Ford, which deeply influenced his path into federal law enforcement.
  • “My brother and I witnessed the attempted assassination of President Ford in September of 75. And that had an impact on me...” (06:49)

• Law Enforcement Path & Undercover Work

  • Started with the ATF after internships with Customs and the Secret Service, largely drawn by both the quick hiring process and their focus on undercover work.
  • Spent 8 years as an undercover officer, engaging with violent gangs, neo-Nazi groups, outlaw motorcycle gangs, and even cases involving Egyptian antiquities and saguaro cactus smuggling.
  • Emphasized the emotional toll and exposure to “the human evil business.”
  • “You're exposed to human tragedy and the continuation of that through generations and all the things that go with it...” (10:34)

• Leadership in ATF

  • Rose to Special Agent in Charge (SAC) roles in several field divisions, eventually becoming a Deputy Assistant Director in D.C.
  • Advocated for servant leadership and building effective, empowered teams.
  • “It was the best leadership experience I had. It was the best living experience I had because the people there had a tremendous work ethic...” (46:41)

2. Mass Shootings & the Nature of Modern Violence

• On Context and Motivations

  • Zapor emphasizes that mass shooters’ stated ideologies are often superficial masks for a deeper, more universal pathology: narcissism, sociopathy, and obsession with self.
  • Critiques society’s unraveling social fabric, lack of community, and “promises kept and demonstration of love,” which he sees as root causes.
  • “If you take all these like mass casualty active shooter types... they're really the same person underneath… obsessed with self, they are narcissistic, they lack empathy, they're sociopathic...” (18:38)

• Media’s Role and Infamy

  • Draws an analogy with The Beatles’ influence—how notorious events inspire copycats.
  • Argues that while media coverage informs, it can also create notoriety and inspire further violence.
  • “The Beatles launched a thousand rock and roll bands... And that's the danger of all of this stuff really.” (24:48, 27:14)

• Mental Health Infrastructure

  • Points to the near-collapse of the U.S. behavioral/mental health system.
  • Calls for serious investment and reform; sees untreated mental disorders and missing support systems as a “pipeline” to violence.
  • “We do not have a behavioral health, mental health system in the United States. We really don't.” (32:04)

• Radicalization and Isolation

  • Raises alarm about how isolation (exacerbated by social media) and radicalization can lead people from stable backgrounds to horrific acts.
  • “We're on a new level beyond traditional crime. We're on a new level of violence that is unprecedented in terms of its reason.” (23:28)

3. Undercover Work: Realities and Lessons

• Authenticity Above All

  • Reveals that successful undercover agents must remain fundamentally themselves; dishonesty is quickly detected and breeds danger.
  • Undercover work is usually transactional, not deeply embedded “Donnie Brasco” scenarios.
  • “You have to be yourself… you can't pretend to be somebody else… You just got to be yourself.” (39:39)

• Risks & Cautionary Tales

  • Cited dangerous scenarios, such as home invasion groups planning to kill the undercover agent after the crime.
  • “If it's too good to be true, it probably is” – a maxim he urges all undercover operatives to remember.
  • “You're extinguishable. You have a better chance, them knowing that you're a federal agent when that comes loose, than they think that you're just an informant or another criminal...” (39:39)

4. The ATF Culture & Misconceptions

• Partnering & Effectiveness
  • The most effective investigations rely on inter-agency cooperation; the ATF historically had a more 'cowboy' culture but was highly respected by local law enforcement.
  • Explains ATF’s essential role and addresses public misconceptions fueled by political rhetoric.
  • “One ATF special agent produces more criminal defendants than any of the other agencies combined... And the further they, the more they work together, the better they all are.” (50:42)

5. Noteworthy Cases: Egyptian Artifacts & Organized Crime

• Unusual Investigations

  • Recounts an investigation involving funeral masks and sarcophagus fragments stolen from Egypt and trafficked by organized crime.
  • The operation became a multi-agency effort and involved a dramatic sting using a secret armory built into a cave.
  • “It was a huge deal... The Egyptian national government flew over because they had to identify. And they were very sensitive...” (55:15)

• Handling Case Crossovers

  • The Egyptian antiquities surfaced while investigating arms trafficking and narcotics, demonstrating how criminal worlds intersect.

6. E Sleuth AI: The Future of Crime Solving

• Why Zapor Got Involved

  • Personally moved by his experience with mass casualty events, Zapor sees E Sleuth AI as a transformative technology—possibly more revolutionary than DNA in forensic science.
  • “This is going to be more profound than DNA in my opinion. And it's happening instantaneously...” (63:25)

• Technology and Process

  • E Sleuth ingests case files, identifies missing steps, and provides actionable, prioritized suggestions to investigators—acting like “a thousand homicide detectives working 24/7.”
  • E Sleuth is not generative AI; it cannot “hallucinate” or invent evidence, only analyze existing material and suggest logical next steps.
  • “The AI is not making any decisions. It's doing what a human would do... It is doing what an investigator does...” (63:25, 71:24)

• Benefits and Potential Impact

  • Drastically speeds up cold case and current investigations, bridges gaps left by staff turnover and mass retirements in law enforcement, prevents both new victimizations and unsolved crimes.
  • The system can even help digitize paper records for large agencies lagging in infrastructure.
  • “This thing's a higher calling because it's just going to be so impactful in a way that's again, stopping victimization, giving families closure and actually preventing crimes.” (72:31)

• Adoption and Reception

  • Mostly met with enthusiasm, though some skepticism from IT departments and agencies' inertia.
  • “It's been nothing but enthusiasm... once the cases start coming out and getting closed, it's going to speak for itself.” (74:24)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You're exposed to human tragedy and the continuation of that through generations... There’s no bottom to human evil nor is there any ceiling to human goodness.”
  — Bernard J. Zapor (10:34)

• “If you strip off the ideology, the terrorist nonsense... they're really the same person underneath. And that person is somebody who is obsessed with self... lack empathy, they're sociopathic.”
  — Zapor (18:38)

• “The Beatles launched a thousand rock and roll bands... and that's the danger of all of this stuff really.”
  — Zapor (24:48, 27:14)

• “We do not have a behavioral health, mental health system in the United States. We really don't.”
  — Zapor (32:04)

• “You have to be yourself. You can't pretend to be somebody else... most people will have a feeling of somebody's lying to them...”
  — Zapor (39:39)

• “ATF was interesting because when I first got into it, it was very much a cowboy outfit... Law enforcement loved us and felons hated us. And I thought that was a great place to be.”
  — Zapor (50:42)

• “This is going to be more profound than DNA in my opinion. And it's happening instantaneously...”
  — Zapor (63:25)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |------------|------------------------------------------------| | 06:41–13:05| Zapor’s career journey and undercover work | | 18:33–32:04| Mass shootings, motivations, and society | | 32:04–39:39| Mental health and violence prevention | | 39:39–44:38| Undercover work: risks and advice | | 50:19–54:56| ATF culture, partnerships, and misconceptions | | 55:15–62:50| Egyptian antiquities investigation | | 63:17–76:06| E Sleuth AI and technology in investigations |

Conclusion

This episode provides a riveting, wide-ranging look at the realities of violent crime, the evolving nature of criminal investigations, and the promise of technology such as E Sleuth AI. Zapor’s career stories offer unique, ground-level insight into law enforcement’s challenges and inner workings, while his reflections on mass shootings challenge listeners to think more deeply about prevention, mental health, and society’s fabric. The episode closes with optimism for how AI may help solve and even prevent violent crimes in the future.

For further information about E Sleuth or details about Bernard J. Zapor’s work, refer to the show notes provided by Murder Sheet.