Murder Sheet: The List Family Murders
Release Date: November 9, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain, Kevin Greenlee
Guest: Andy (listener with personal connection and prison correspondence with John List)
Theme: An exhaustive, journalistic exploration of the John List family murders—one of the most haunting family annihilation cases in American true crime history—through interview, personal recollections, and rare correspondence with List himself.
Episode Overview
The episode revisits the chilling 1971 case of John List, who murdered his wife, three children, and mother in their New Jersey mansion, then vanished for nearly two decades before being apprehended. Hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee are joined by Andy, a lifelong local to the case who not only toured the List home shortly after the crime but later exchanged letters with List while he was imprisoned. Together, they unpack List’s upbringing, the events leading to the murders, his life on the run, and rare personal insights from their correspondence—offering new perspectives on motive, personality, and legacy.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Personal Connection & Walking Through Breeze Knoll
- [06:42] Andy shares growing up near Westfield, NJ, where the murders occurred.
- Andy’s family had connections that allowed them to legally tour the List mansion after discovery of the bodies.
- He describes the atmosphere:
"Even then, there was a presence that you could feel in that house... particularly in the ballroom of the mansion." (08:00)
- Physical evidence (like blood) and an eerie air lingered in the mansion for weeks after the crime.
2. John List: Early Life, Marriage, and Personal Struggles
- [09:25] Brief biography: strict, conservative Lutheran upbringing in Michigan (Missouri Synod), doted on his mother; emotionally distant father.
- Served in WWII and Korea; socially awkward, found it hard to keep jobs due to rigid thinking and dislike of authority.
- Marriage to Helen Taylor, who struggled with alcoholism and health problems; two sons and a daughter.
- Reluctance to divorce, rooted in religion and social shame. Helen insisted on marrying in Maryland to avoid blood tests due to undiagnosed syphilis.
"He was a loner, socially awkward, which would kind of carry him through his entire life." (09:29)
3. Financial Downfall & Gathering Storm
- [14:47] Helen’s health deteriorates; John struggles to maintain work, ultimately losing his job at the First National Bank of Jersey City. Hides his unemployment, “goes to work” each day by sitting at the train station.
- The family moved into Breeze Knoll, an opulent Victorian mansion they could not afford, enabled by financial help from List’s mother Alma, who moved in.
- [21:46] Daughter Patricia’s (Patty) involvement with drama club and marijuana—a source of moral panic for List, given his conservative beliefs.
4. Step-by-Step Account of the Murders & Escape
- [23:00] Andy meticulously recounts Nov 9, 1971:
- John List shot Helen (wife), then his mother, then—one by one as they returned home—Patty, Frederick, and John Jr. (who fought back; List shot multiple times to ensure death, claiming intent to avoid suffering).
- Andy details List’s chilling calmness and methodical cleanup at each step—even preparing and eating lunch after two murders, and turning on house lights and organ music to delay discovery.
- [25:00] List’s manipulative measures: sending notes to schools and employers to explain absence, stopping mail and milk, crafting an elaborate escape route via train and bus, adopting the alias "Robert P. Clark."
- [21:46] Quote:
"From the moment that he made that decision...he was not emotionally vested in it at all. He saw it as a military operation that needed to be carried out." (21:46)
- [32:00] His logic for leaving murder weapons: so authorities would know he was unarmed when they found the letters.
5. Life on the Run & Eventual Capture
- [28:00] List’s new life as Robert P. Clark in Denver: menial restaurant jobs, remarriage to Dolores Miller, cautious adaptation to a less conservative church (ELCA) to avoid detection.
- [30:00] Captured in 1989 after America’s Most Wanted airs an age-progressed bust, recognized by a former neighbor. Denied his identity until fingerprint evidence.
- [32:00] Convicted on five counts of murder; sentenced to life.
6. Insights from Prison Correspondence
- [34:52] Andy describes meeting List via church prison outreach:
- List attended Lutheran services in prison, was reserved and meek—never matched his monstrous crimes in demeanor.
- Their correspondence includes List’s meticulous corrections (multiple pages, by paragraph and sentence) to the book “Collateral Damage.”
- [36:59] Anecdote from List’s prison supervisor:
"If I go to John's desk and he's not there...I take his pencil and move it to the other side of the desk...When John returns, he's immediately going to come to me to tell me that someone's been moving his things." (36:59)
- Illustrates List’s obsessive and controlling nature.
7. Remorse, Motive, and Rationalization
- [38:57—39:36]
- List never expressed genuine remorse for the murders to Andy; rationale was always that he was "saving" his family from ruin and guiding them to heaven.
- Did not commit suicide because, as per his religious beliefs, it would block entry to heaven.
"He was thoroughly convinced that once he got to heaven, he would be reunited with his family, who would welcome him with open arms." (39:36)
- [41:25] No remorse for the murders themselves—regrets or sadness only related to financial failure.
- [43:19] Discussion of the “narcissistic” aspect of family annihilators: seeing family as extensions of self, standards rooted in shame, control, and religious ideology.
- Religious factors seen as pivotal in both his motivation and justification.
8. Wider True Crime Context and Cultural Impact
- [45:24] The List case as an iconic family annihilator case, often referenced as precedent in later crimes (e.g., Chris Watts, Robert Fisher).
- [47:09] Parallels drawn between religious justifications in List and more recent cases like Lori Vallow (“Daybell” case).
- [49:27] The “banality of evil”: List’s outward normality and neighbors’ inability to detect danger; echoes found in many infamous cases (Dahmer, BTK).
- [52:59] Sympathy for the children and the pressures on teens in conservative homes.
- [55:57] Critique of online documentaries and myths (e.g., the “Tiffany” stained glass ceiling urban legend).
9. Candid Q&A from List’s Letters
- [55:50] Andy shares direct answers from List about his life and the crime:
- Only saw the Robert Blake TV film on his case, claims “only about 10% was accurate.”
- Never visited the Westfield graves, but received photos.
- Acknowledges PTSD diagnosis from military service—“might have saved us from the tragedy that occurred” if diagnosed earlier.
10. Reflections on Evil & Rehabilitation
- [62:21] Andy describes List, even in private, as ordinary—mild, meek, a man with no outward monstrousness:
"Probably the most eye opening about it was how normal he was...it altered my perspective in a lot of ways. These people that do these horrible things don't have horns growing out of their heads...they are, on the whole, very normal people." (62:21)
- [69:59] Raises big-picture questions of rehabilitation, remorse, and befriending the incarcerated—some can change, others are irredeemable. Each case is different and must be evaluated individually.
Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps
- On the chilling presence of Breeze Knoll:
"Even then, there was a presence that you could feel in that house. Particularly...in the ballroom...there was not only physical signs but there was also very definitely a presence." — Andy [08:00]
- On motive and planning:
"From the moment that he made that decision all the way through the murders...he was not emotionally vested...He saw it as a military operation." — Andy [21:46]
- On methodical personality:
"If I go to John's desk and he's not there...I take his pencil and move it to the other side of the desk...When John returns, he's immediately going to come to me to tell me that someone's been moving his things." — Andy (quoting List’s supervisor) [36:59]
- On lack of remorse:
"He was thoroughly convinced that once he got to heaven, he would be reunited with his family, who would welcome him...That's why he didn't commit suicide." — Andy [39:36]
- On seeing List face-to-face:
"He was very mild, meek...For me, the most eye opening about it was how normal he was." — Andy [62:21]
- On true crime ‘precedent’ effect:
"There is nothing new under the sun...when people say, how could you kill your family for money? A lot of people kind of do." — Sam [46:07]
- On the “monsters next door” theme:
"It's easier for us to reconcile that you can see a monster and identify him, rather than, oh, it's just your neighborhood grocer." — Andy [49:27]
Recommended Resources & Final Thoughts
- Accurate sources for List case:
- Book: Collateral Damage (co-written by John List in prison)
- Podcast: Father Wants Us Dead
- Original media interviews (e.g., Connie Chung)
- Caution: Misinformation and errors abound in some documentaries (e.g., “A Killer Next Door”).
- Major takeaway: The John List murders remain a fundamental, harrowing case—melding religious dogma, shame, mental illness, financial collapse, and chilling calculation. The lesson endures: evil can wear an unremarkable face, and motives, while understandable, remain unfathomable.
Timestamps for Significant Segments
- [06:42] Andy’s personal connection and touring Breeze Knoll
- [09:29] John List’s upbringing and character
- [21:46] List’s escalating stress and emotional detachment leading to the murders
- [23:00] Step-by-step breakdown of the murders
- [28:00] Description of List’s flight, new identity, and capture
- [34:52] Meeting List in prison, Andy’s correspondence
- [36:59] Anecdote illustrating List’s obsessive mind
- [38:57] Lack of remorse and religious rationalization for murder
- [45:24] “Precedent” in true crime—family annihilation cases
- [52:59] Sympathy for victims, media misrepresentations
- [55:57] List’s direct responses from prison letters
- [62:21] Reflection on List’s ordinariness and criminality
- [69:59] Conversation on rehabilitation for the incarcerated