The List Family Murders

Summary

Murder Sheet: The List Family Murders

Release Date: November 9, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain, Kevin Greenlee
Guest: Andy (listener with personal connection and prison correspondence with John List)
Theme: An exhaustive, journalistic exploration of the John List family murders—one of the most haunting family annihilation cases in American true crime history—through interview, personal recollections, and rare correspondence with List himself.

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Episode Overview

The episode revisits the chilling 1971 case of John List, who murdered his wife, three children, and mother in their New Jersey mansion, then vanished for nearly two decades before being apprehended. Hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee are joined by Andy, a lifelong local to the case who not only toured the List home shortly after the crime but later exchanged letters with List while he was imprisoned. Together, they unpack List’s upbringing, the events leading to the murders, his life on the run, and rare personal insights from their correspondence—offering new perspectives on motive, personality, and legacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Connection & Walking Through Breeze Knoll

• [06:42] Andy shares growing up near Westfield, NJ, where the murders occurred.
• Andy’s family had connections that allowed them to legally tour the List mansion after discovery of the bodies.
• He describes the atmosphere:

  "Even then, there was a presence that you could feel in that house... particularly in the ballroom of the mansion." (08:00)

• Physical evidence (like blood) and an eerie air lingered in the mansion for weeks after the crime.

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2. John List: Early Life, Marriage, and Personal Struggles

• [09:25] Brief biography: strict, conservative Lutheran upbringing in Michigan (Missouri Synod), doted on his mother; emotionally distant father.
• Served in WWII and Korea; socially awkward, found it hard to keep jobs due to rigid thinking and dislike of authority.
• Marriage to Helen Taylor, who struggled with alcoholism and health problems; two sons and a daughter.
• Reluctance to divorce, rooted in religion and social shame. Helen insisted on marrying in Maryland to avoid blood tests due to undiagnosed syphilis.

  "He was a loner, socially awkward, which would kind of carry him through his entire life." (09:29)

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3. Financial Downfall & Gathering Storm

• [14:47] Helen’s health deteriorates; John struggles to maintain work, ultimately losing his job at the First National Bank of Jersey City. Hides his unemployment, “goes to work” each day by sitting at the train station.
• The family moved into Breeze Knoll, an opulent Victorian mansion they could not afford, enabled by financial help from List’s mother Alma, who moved in.
• [21:46] Daughter Patricia’s (Patty) involvement with drama club and marijuana—a source of moral panic for List, given his conservative beliefs.

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4. Step-by-Step Account of the Murders & Escape

• [23:00] Andy meticulously recounts Nov 9, 1971:
  • John List shot Helen (wife), then his mother, then—one by one as they returned home—Patty, Frederick, and John Jr. (who fought back; List shot multiple times to ensure death, claiming intent to avoid suffering).
  • Andy details List’s chilling calmness and methodical cleanup at each step—even preparing and eating lunch after two murders, and turning on house lights and organ music to delay discovery.
  • [25:00] List’s manipulative measures: sending notes to schools and employers to explain absence, stopping mail and milk, crafting an elaborate escape route via train and bus, adopting the alias "Robert P. Clark."
• [21:46] Quote:

  "From the moment that he made that decision...he was not emotionally vested in it at all. He saw it as a military operation that needed to be carried out." (21:46)

• [32:00] His logic for leaving murder weapons: so authorities would know he was unarmed when they found the letters.

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5. Life on the Run & Eventual Capture

• [28:00] List’s new life as Robert P. Clark in Denver: menial restaurant jobs, remarriage to Dolores Miller, cautious adaptation to a less conservative church (ELCA) to avoid detection.
• [30:00] Captured in 1989 after America’s Most Wanted airs an age-progressed bust, recognized by a former neighbor. Denied his identity until fingerprint evidence.
• [32:00] Convicted on five counts of murder; sentenced to life.

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6. Insights from Prison Correspondence

• [34:52] Andy describes meeting List via church prison outreach:
  • List attended Lutheran services in prison, was reserved and meek—never matched his monstrous crimes in demeanor.
  • Their correspondence includes List’s meticulous corrections (multiple pages, by paragraph and sentence) to the book “Collateral Damage.”
  • [36:59] Anecdote from List’s prison supervisor:

    "If I go to John's desk and he's not there...I take his pencil and move it to the other side of the desk...When John returns, he's immediately going to come to me to tell me that someone's been moving his things." (36:59)

    • Illustrates List’s obsessive and controlling nature.

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7. Remorse, Motive, and Rationalization

• [38:57—39:36]
  • List never expressed genuine remorse for the murders to Andy; rationale was always that he was "saving" his family from ruin and guiding them to heaven.
  • Did not commit suicide because, as per his religious beliefs, it would block entry to heaven.

    "He was thoroughly convinced that once he got to heaven, he would be reunited with his family, who would welcome him with open arms." (39:36)

• [41:25] No remorse for the murders themselves—regrets or sadness only related to financial failure.
• [43:19] Discussion of the “narcissistic” aspect of family annihilators: seeing family as extensions of self, standards rooted in shame, control, and religious ideology.
  • Religious factors seen as pivotal in both his motivation and justification.

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8. Wider True Crime Context and Cultural Impact

• [45:24] The List case as an iconic family annihilator case, often referenced as precedent in later crimes (e.g., Chris Watts, Robert Fisher).
• [47:09] Parallels drawn between religious justifications in List and more recent cases like Lori Vallow (“Daybell” case).
• [49:27] The “banality of evil”: List’s outward normality and neighbors’ inability to detect danger; echoes found in many infamous cases (Dahmer, BTK).
• [52:59] Sympathy for the children and the pressures on teens in conservative homes.
• [55:57] Critique of online documentaries and myths (e.g., the “Tiffany” stained glass ceiling urban legend).

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9. Candid Q&A from List’s Letters

• [55:50] Andy shares direct answers from List about his life and the crime:
  • Only saw the Robert Blake TV film on his case, claims “only about 10% was accurate.”
  • Never visited the Westfield graves, but received photos.
  • Acknowledges PTSD diagnosis from military service—“might have saved us from the tragedy that occurred” if diagnosed earlier.

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10. Reflections on Evil & Rehabilitation

• [62:21] Andy describes List, even in private, as ordinary—mild, meek, a man with no outward monstrousness:

  "Probably the most eye opening about it was how normal he was...it altered my perspective in a lot of ways. These people that do these horrible things don't have horns growing out of their heads...they are, on the whole, very normal people." (62:21)

• [69:59] Raises big-picture questions of rehabilitation, remorse, and befriending the incarcerated—some can change, others are irredeemable. Each case is different and must be evaluated individually.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• On the chilling presence of Breeze Knoll:

  "Even then, there was a presence that you could feel in that house. Particularly...in the ballroom...there was not only physical signs but there was also very definitely a presence." — Andy [08:00]

• On motive and planning:

  "From the moment that he made that decision all the way through the murders...he was not emotionally vested...He saw it as a military operation." — Andy [21:46]

• On methodical personality:

  "If I go to John's desk and he's not there...I take his pencil and move it to the other side of the desk...When John returns, he's immediately going to come to me to tell me that someone's been moving his things." — Andy (quoting List’s supervisor) [36:59]

• On lack of remorse:

  "He was thoroughly convinced that once he got to heaven, he would be reunited with his family, who would welcome him...That's why he didn't commit suicide." — Andy [39:36]

• On seeing List face-to-face:

  "He was very mild, meek...For me, the most eye opening about it was how normal he was." — Andy [62:21]

• On true crime ‘precedent’ effect:

  "There is nothing new under the sun...when people say, how could you kill your family for money? A lot of people kind of do." — Sam [46:07]

• On the “monsters next door” theme:

  "It's easier for us to reconcile that you can see a monster and identify him, rather than, oh, it's just your neighborhood grocer." — Andy [49:27]

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Recommended Resources & Final Thoughts

• Accurate sources for List case:
  • Book: Collateral Damage (co-written by John List in prison)
  • Podcast: Father Wants Us Dead
  • Original media interviews (e.g., Connie Chung)
• Caution: Misinformation and errors abound in some documentaries (e.g., “A Killer Next Door”).
• Major takeaway: The John List murders remain a fundamental, harrowing case—melding religious dogma, shame, mental illness, financial collapse, and chilling calculation. The lesson endures: evil can wear an unremarkable face, and motives, while understandable, remain unfathomable.

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• [06:42] Andy’s personal connection and touring Breeze Knoll
• [09:29] John List’s upbringing and character
• [21:46] List’s escalating stress and emotional detachment leading to the murders
• [23:00] Step-by-step breakdown of the murders
• [28:00] Description of List’s flight, new identity, and capture
• [34:52] Meeting List in prison, Andy’s correspondence
• [36:59] Anecdote illustrating List’s obsessive mind
• [38:57] Lack of remorse and religious rationalization for murder
• [45:24] “Precedent” in true crime—family annihilation cases
• [52:59] Sympathy for victims, media misrepresentations
• [55:57] List’s direct responses from prison letters
• [62:21] Reflection on List’s ordinariness and criminality
• [69:59] Conversation on rehabilitation for the incarcerated

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The Murder Sheet’s The List Family Murders delivers a humanizing, chilling, and thoroughly researched account of a notorious case—one that still defines the questions at the heart of true crime: Why do seemingly ordinary people commit extraordinary evil, and can evil ever wear a normal face?

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

This episode contains discussion of murder, including the murder of children.

[Anya Cain]

On November 9, 1971, a man named John List got to work killing his entire family. The List home, a Victorian mansion in Westfield, New Jersey known as Breeze Knoll, became a killing ground. List first shot his 47 year old wife Helen. Then he shot his 84 year old mother, Alma. Later he shot each of his children, 16 year old Patricia, the eldest and 13 year old Frederick, the youngest, and 15 year old John Frederick, who lived long enough to try to fight back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

After carving himself out of all the family photographs in the home, List fled, becoming a fugitive. For years he carried out a new life. But in 1989 his crimes finally caught up to him and he was captured and ultimately convicted of the murders. His heinous crime continues to haunt New Jersey and beyond. People wonder how could an outwardly respectable businessman slaughter his entire family?

[Anya Cain]

Well, we talked to someone who actually got to know John List before he died in prison in 2008. Our friend Andy is here to talk to us about how he became fascinated with this case and his correspondence with this family annihilator. He provided us some of that correspondence and we're going to talk about this case in detail and his own opinions about List. My name is Anya Cain, I'm a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Anya Cain]

I'm an attorney and this is the murder sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet, and this is.

[Sam]

The List Family murders, Sam. So, Andy, I am so excited to be talking with you today, as I am to you.

[Andy]

It's great to be here.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Sam]

You're like one of our OG listeners, I feel like. And it's always really exciting to connect with a listener. And I love that you're wearing your Murder Sheet T shirt today, so.

[Andy]

Absolutely. I wear it proudly.

[Sam]

Thank you. We really appreciate that. And so, yeah, I guess to start off with, I guess just tell us a little bit about yourself and just kind of introduce yourself to the audience.

[Andy]

Sure. I grew up in a town called Warren, New Jersey, which is in Somerset County. And so I was literally sort of right up the mountain from Westfield, which, of course, is where the John List murders happened. As a young man, I, you know, I was off and on. I used to enjoy little crime stuff. And, you know, the Lindbergh kidnapping case was something I looked into. And I had an uncle that worked for President Kennedy, so he was with him in Dallas when the assassination happened. So, you know, I was kind of around. I don't want to say crime, but I was kind of around true crime things for a while. The List murders happened in 1971, and through a series of connections with my parents, we actually ended up touring the home after the bodies had been discovered. You know, of course, everybody knew about it in my area because it was a huge, you know, it was obviously a huge case. And then after that, nothing much really about it until flash forward, you know, when he was captured.

[Sam]

Wow. I want to ask, first and foremost, what were your memories of being in that home, touring it after this horrible thing happened?

[Andy]

I will tell you that even then, there was a presence that you could feel in that house. And particularly as we get into the case, but particularly in the ballroom of the mansion, there was not only was there physical signs, but there was also very definitely a presence in that house.

[Sam]

Wow. And when you say physical signs, you mean like blood or what?

[Andy]

Yes.

[Sam]

Wow.

[Andy]

Yes. Because the ballroom was where. Where John had put the bodies. And so they had been there for about a month before they were discovered.

[Sam]

Gosh, that's. That's terrifying. And how did your parents manage this?

[Andy]

Well, it was through a friend of theirs who worked in Westfield and was very close friends with someone in law enforcement. And so I. I always tell people I was there legally. I wasn't one of the teenagers that broke in like somebody did after the Murders. I was there legally. And. Yeah, so it was, it was an experience for sure. For sure.

[Sam]

I bet. And then backing up a bit. This is a pretty well known true crime case, in my opinion. But for people who may not be familiar, may not remember all the details, can you tell us a little bit about what happened with the list family?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure.

[Andy]

I mean, do you want to go back to any kind of history of John himself or do we want to just pick it up like in Westfield?

[Sam]

I think we can go into the history of John himself and just what, you know.

[Andy]

Sure, I'll. I'll make it brief. He was born in 1925, and he was born in Bay City, Michigan. His parents were John and Alma. He was a Lutheran growing up, as his parents were. And if you're not familiar with the Lutheran Church, there's kind of two distinct branches. One is the elca, which is fairly liberal and, and fairly forward thinking. And then there is what's called the Missouri Synod, which is very conservative, very, you know, strict. And his family was a member of the Missouri Synod. So he grew up in a very strict household. His parents were, although somewhat cold at times, were loving. He doted on his mother constantly. His father and him enjoyed really a pretty good relationship. Again, it was distant at times, and his father could be cold. But even John only recalls him ever getting spanked once. So he grew up there, went to high school. He was a loner, socially awkward, which would kind of carry him through the entire end of his life. He got out of high school, went to college, and then he, of course, World War II came along. So he ended up in the army, initially in Europe and then in the Pacific. He was actually a POW in Europe for a brief period of time because he went over at the end of the war. It was like 1945, so the war was almost over at that point. And then he moved around a bit and ultimately he ended up back in the army when Korea swung around, interestingly enough, and he was stationed in Virginia. And while there he met Helen Taylor, who he was smitten by. And they started dating and they had a very hot romance going on. And at one point, Helen had been married before her husband had died. She had a daughter named Brenda. And she announced to John that she was pregnant. And John being John, immediately, well, you know, we have to get married because that's the right thing to do. And Helen insisted, although they were in Virginia, Helen insisted on getting married in Maryland. And I'm going to put a pin in that and come back to it, because there is a definitive reason for that later on. But anyway, they got married. She had somewhat of a drinking issue at that time. She had started to drink, but, you know, he had gotten a job and he was working as an accountant. And then they started having a family. So they had Patty in 1955, they had John in 1956, and then Fred, the youngest, in 1958. John had a hard time. John List had a hard time keeping work. It was due to a couple of factors. For one thing, he did not play well with others. He was not a team player. The other thing was that he had a very difficult time accepting processes and procedures that he didn't think were the right way to do things. And so that often led to issues with employers. Right. Ultimately, however, he landed a job with Xerox, which, you know, at that time, Xerox was it for photocopies. Right. You know, and they moved to upstate New York. And he rose through the ranks. He became an executive fairly quickly and a high ranking executive to the point where they were sending him and Helen on trips over to Europe and down to Mexico and what have you. However, Helen's drinking had continued to escalate and there were many occasions that she was quite the embarrassment at business functions and things like that. And ultimately, John lost the job at Xerox. And this had been a history with him of losing jobs. And he lost the job. Xerox was very good to him. You wouldn't see it today, but they gave him an office. They kept him on the payroll while he was doing his job search. And they helped him in any way that they could. Yeah, you'd never hear that today he was on the payroll for about three and a half, almost four months. And then finally he got a job at the First national bank of Jersey City in New Jersey. And so that's what brought them to New Jersey. And again, he was an executive very much up the ladder. And they decided that, you know, obviously they had to live in New Jersey and they settled on the town of Westfield. Now, Westfield then, and Westfield today is a fairly affluent little town. It's mostly executives. Today's world. There's a lot of people that run hedge funds that live there. And the homes in Westfield are primarily Victorians that are still there from the 1800s. And there's quite a few of them. You may appreciate this. Westfield is probably best known because Charles Adams grew up there. That created the Adams family. And having been in Westfield quite often, I will tell you there are two homes that if you walk if you look at them, Charles would walk by them and going to school. And if you take the two homes and you kind of blend them, it's the Addams family house.

[Sam]

My God, I love that.

[Andy]

So. But. But I digress. In any event, they found. Helen found this home called Breeze Knoll, and it was a mansion. And when I say a mansion, I mean a mansion. It had five bedrooms. The third floor had servants quarters. There was a ballroom, There was a billiard room, There was a music room, There was a library. Yes. And then behind the house, there was a greenhouse. So it was built back in the 1800s, and it was a very opulent home and quite frankly, kind of beyond their financial reach. But Helen would never hear of that. You know what she wanted? She wanted. And John tried to appease her. So he contacted his mother, who lives. Still lived in Michigan, to ask for some financial support in putting the down payment and everything together. And she did that. She had helped John throughout the years. Now, depending upon whose version you listen to, if you listen to John's version, Helen suggested that his mother come and live with them because they had this third floor that was the servants quarters, that, with a little work, could be a nice apartment. So if you listen to John, it was Helen's idea. If you listen to others, it was John kind of, you know, prodding a little bit to get the money with the idea of, well, if she sold her home and she then could move with them. And it's hard to know where the truth lies. Right. As often is the case. But in any event, Alma moved there and she moved into Breeze Knoll. Now, by this time, Helen was having more and more severe health issues. She would spend days in bed. She was very lethargic. John took over pretty much the care of the three children, along with his mother. She was drinking at an unbelievable rate. And it was somewhere during this time that it was revealed that she had contracted syphilis from her first husband. And so that would have been, you know, prior to meeting John. And it turns out that's the reason she wanted to get married in Maryland, because they didn't require a blood test. And that's why she was adamant about it. But by this time, you know, the syphilis had really started to take its toll on her physically and mentally, you know, as. As it does. So anyway, they're. They're living there in Breeze Knowles, et cetera, et cetera. And, well, lo and behold, the first bank of Jersey City closes. And so John now finds himself without a job. And so he had gotten a job for a little while with a one of these companies that goes out and does school photos, believe it or not, you know, and you know, they have studios and what have you. Well, he lost that job also. He never told Helen that he lost the job or his mother or his kids. He would leave his home every morning. He would drive to the train station in Westfield, sit in his car or sit in the train station all day, and then come home at the time he normally would from work.

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[Andy]

The point where financially things are starting to crash and burn, right? He's running through the savings. He's really kind of tapped his mother for as much as he could. And also about this time, Patty, who was the oldest, she was 16. She had gotten very involved with the drama club at Westfield High School. And John was not particularly pleased with this because he, you know, this is 1970, 71. And like most teenagers at that time, she and her friends would smoke pot and hang out and, you know, this was the theater which was like, you know, and so he became very concerned about the moral path that Patty seemed to be going on, right? And he was a Very. He had gone to church every week with the family, right in Westfield. And it was a Missouri Synod church, you know, and he was treasurer there and all this kind of stuff. He started to become more and more desperate. And then at one point, he came to the realization that with the way things were going, this was going to be financial ruin. They would lose the house. They would have to go on public assistance, which was unheard of for him, and that who knows what was going to happen with Patty, because with where she was heading. And so he made the conscious decision that in order to save his family from all of this, he would kill them. From the moment that he made that decision all the way through the murders themselves, he was not emotionally vested in it at all. He saw it as a military operation that needed to be carried out. And so now what do I have to do to carry it out? And so he began planning. And amongst the things he did was he obtained Social Security cards in a number of different names. He took packages and sent them to different post offices across the country. And then he knew that he needed weapons, so he applied for a gun permit, but it was taking too long. So he remembered that he had two pistols in the house stored. One he had bought in World War II from a GI. The other belonged to his father. So he rummaged through and found them. Well, of course, the only ammunition he had was, you know, 40 years old or whatever it was. So he went to a local sporting goods store, which was a place called Ray's Sports Shop, that used to be on Route 22 in North Plainfield. And I knew it well because I used to go there myself, you know, to buy things. And he bought his. Bought the ammunition. And they also had a gun range attached to the store. And so he test fired the weapons in the gun range to make sure they were in working order. And now that all the pieces were kind of put together, he decided that the date would be November 9, 1971. And so on the morning of November 9, he got the kids off to school. Helen was in the kitchen having some breakfast. He came up behind her and shot her in the back of the head. She, of course, fell dead on the floor. He put her on a sleeping bag and dragged her body to the ballroom, went back to the kitchen, cleaned everything up, cleaned up all the blood, etc. Then he went upstairs to the third floor, and his mother was in her little kitchenette, and he shot and killed her. And she fell dead there. Later on, we would learn that he did not move her to the ballroom because according to him, she was too heavy to move. So he left her on the floor up there. So now we flash, he goes downstairs, he makes himself some lunch. He sits down at the very table where he killed his wife a few hours earlier, eats his lunch, cleans up after that. And now it's getting close to, you know, the end of the school day. So Pat had a part time job with Fred, they had a part time job downtown, but she wasn't feeling well, so she had called and said that she wasn't going to be going to work. So John went, picked her up. When they got back to the house, the back entrance to the house, went into the laundry room, and from the laundry room to the kitchen. So he followed her in. When she got into the kitchen, he shot her in the back of the head. She fell dead. He put her on a sleeping bag, took her to the ballroom and cleaned up. A little while later he went and he picked Fred up from the after school job where Fred had gone. And the same basic routine, he followed Fred in, shot him once in the back of the head, put his body in the ballroom and cleaned up. Then later on, John was at a soccer game. And so he went and picked John up at the soccer game. And same process, except that when he shot John, John fell to the floor, but his body was moving, it was almost like it was twitching. And. And you know, of course we don't know whether, whether he was actually dead. And it was a, you know, body reaction, we don't know. But it very much concerned John because John. The one thing John wanted to make sure of was that none of the people he was killing suffered. He was very intent on that. And so he emptied the other pistol into his son's body to make sure he was dead again, dragged him to the ballroom, put him there, and then cleaned up afterwards. Then he went to his study and he wrote several letters to his minister, to the chief of police, to Helen's sister and a couple of other relatives. And he confessed to the killings. The letter is particularly to his path, very clear. You know, he, he confessed and why he did them. He put the envelopes, he sealed the envelopes, he put them there, he took the two pistols and he put them on the floor next to the desk. And people have somewhat said, well, you know, why did he do that? And his logic was he wanted the know that he was not armed when they would, would be coming after him. So he thought if he left the guns, they would say, oh, okay, he's not Armed. Of course they didn't, because how would they know? So then after that he, he made dinner and sat down in the kitchen and ate dinner and then he went upstairs and went to bed and he slept. Before he left the house, he be, he had sent letters to stop the mail, stop the milk, that type of thing. He had also contacted the schools and said that Helen's sister in North Carolina was very ill and so the family was going there so the kids would not be in school for a while. He contacted their part time job. So he kind of covered the bases on a lot of fronts. Before he left, he had turned on most of the light, a lot of the lights in the home. He had turned the temperature down in the ballroom and the house had an intercom system. So he had put on this sort of church organ music to play throughout the house. Yes, right. And then he got in his car and he drove to Kennedy Airport into long term parking and he parked up on the upper deck. He took a bus from Kennedy Airport to New York City and in New York City he got on a train to Philadelphia and then a train to Detroit. And then he took a bus to Jackson, Missouri and then a bus to Fort Wayne, Indiana. Out in your neck of the woods. And it was actually in Fort Wayne that he had shipped a lot of these boxes to. So he went to the post office and picked those up and what have you. And then he went to a place called Galesburg, Illinois, or Gaysburg, I don't know how it's pronounced. And then finally a train to Denver, which is where he had decided to settle. So he settled in Denver. By this time he had decided to adopt one of the names that he had Social Security cards for, and that was Robert P. Clark. And you know, people go, well, how did he come up with that name? And about the only connection I can find is that the church in Westfield that he attended was on Clark Street. And so I have a feeling that quite possibly simply because he knew that name, because he walked by that street sign many times in a week, that may be where Clark came from. Robert P. I don't know. But he settled in Denver. He got a job at an IHOP as a cook of all things. But that didn't even last long because they, they realized that he was really no short order cook, although he could cook, he wasn't a shorter and he couldn't keep a with the pace. So they let him go from that. Then he went to a little restaurant attached to a hotel and he worked there. And that Actually turned out to be successful for him because he was primarily a dishwasher and a busboy and that. But he was perfectly happy with that. And eventually they actually made him what we would call a sous chef, although I don't know if in a little restaurant they use that term, but, you know, and he saved up enough money so that he could rent an apartment, and he was kind of starting this new life. And of course, he wanted to get back to church because it was still very important to him. But he decided he shouldn't go to a Missouri Synod church because if there was anywhere they might be networking throughout the country to find him, it could be that. So he went to an ELCA church. And as John said, they were not nearly as radical as I had been taught that they were, because, you know, and they had a singles group. And so he started going, and he met this woman named Dolores, and her name was Dolores Miller. They got married in 1985, and they were living in Denver, and he was working. And then, almost out of the blue, someone he had known years before contacted somebody, and they placed an ad in the paper that they were looking for an accountant at this firm in Virginia. Now, the friend that he knew didn't know this was John List, and he didn't work at the accounting firm. It was only through a series of events that this ad ended up reaching John. John contacted them, and they hired him. So he and Dolores moved from Denver to Virginia, and this would be his last life as a free man, so to speak. The police chief in Westfield started badgering John Welsh and the America's Most Wanted producers to do an episode on John List. And of course, at first, they're like, look, this is 18 years old. You know, nobody even knows what he looks like. You know, John had ripped his picture out of everything in the house before he left. So there was. He left no photos of himself. They did find one that had been in the newspaper when he got hired in Jersey City, and that was what was circulated. That's all anybody knew. So, as you may know, America's Most Wanted hired a forensic sculptor who created this bust of what John would look like at that time. And they did the episode. Well, a former neighbor in Denver who was a little bit of a busy buddy herself, you know, she liked to know everything, you know. You know, saw it and knew that Bob Clark and Dolores had moved to Virginia, and she called America's Most Wanted with the tip. And that was the beginning of sort of the end, as far as that goes. They tracked him down they went to the accounting firm where he was working, arrested him. He denied that he was John List. He maintained he was Robert P. Clark. And it was only after they got fingerprints sent from New Jersey that matched his that he finally fessed up to who he was. He came back, they extradited him, brought him back to New Jersey, put him on trial in Union county, and he was convicted of five counts of murder and given five life sentences. And then he was sent to the state prison in Trenton, New Jersey.

[Sam]

Wow. It's. It's truly a remarkable. I mean, it is kind of in some ways, sort of an iconic story within true crime. It's. It's really kind of one of the, I think, fundamental family annihilation fusion phrase that we've kind of heard about. But, I mean, you did such a good job recounting it. I just want to say I was gripped. So he goes to prison, he's convicted. My understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, it's my understanding that I believe the judge said, you know, he's without remorse, he's without honor. You know, he really wasn't expressing a lot of remorse for what he did to his family, sort of saying, well, I was in a bad state of mind at the time, so kind of that is. Is the reason it happened. Tell me about then, where this picks up, where you are in contact.

[Andy]

Yes. So fast forward. And John is in prison. And at the time, I was doing some outreach ministry with my church, which happened to be a Lutheran church. And one of the places that we would go and hold services was in the prison. And. And as John. John was a Lutheran and had pretty well sort of accepted the ELCA church, which is what our mind was. He would come to services and, you know, he was quiet. He would come, he'd sit in the back. He was very, you know, meek. My, you know, he was not some crazed lunatic back there. What would happen is that quite often after the services, they would break into little groups, you know, discussion groups. And I found myself with. With John on several occasions. And then he and I started corresponding with each other and writing back and forth, and I would visit him periodically. Then as the material I sent you was a letter that he sent me in response to one of my letters where he was telling me about the book that was coming out, Collateral Damage. And I think what I found most interesting about that was that he included several pages of corrections that slipped through the editor because he was so meticulous and so intent on making sure that it was right. That he had this list of. By page, by paragraph, the sentence, what it says, what it should say, et cetera, et cetera. And I thought it really kind of showed how John's mind worked. Right. And I remember talking to his supervisor because, you know, everybody in prison has a job, and given his accounting background, he was in charge of, like, office supplies, you know, and maintaining inventory and ordering and things. And I remember talking to his supervisor, and his supervisor says, here, I'll tell you a story if you want to know sort of how John's mind works.

[Sam]

Works.

[Andy]

And I said, yeah, I'd love to. And he said, here's the thing. If I go to John's desk and he's not there, he goes and I want to talk to him, I don't try to track him down. I take his pencil and I move it to the other side of the desk. And because I know that when John returns, he's immediately going to come to me to tell me that someone's been moving his things. And so I don't have to look for him, because he's going to come to me. And I said, okay, well, yeah, that does explain a lot. Right. But I will tell you that the family, meaning Helen and the three children, are all buried at Fairview Cemetery in Westfield, which, coincidentally, is where Whitney Houston is buried. It has a common headstone, so you have the name list and then all the individuals. And of course, the fact that the date of death is the same on every one of them. You know, it kind of makes you. And people come and they leave with stuffed animals and things like that. Now, his mother was flown back to Michigan and buried in the cemetery next to her late husband. So John dies ultimately of pneumonia is. Is what he ultimately contracted. But John dies, and there was a period of time where his remains were not being claimed by anybody. Interesting enough, he still had, quote, friends on the outside, but eventually there was the minister at the church in Michigan that claimed them. And so John is actually buried next to his mother in that cemetery, so next to the woman that he killed.

[Sam]

Gosh. And I'm looking at these corrections he sent you, and they're very, very meticulous, you know, and he talks about how, I'm not going to make any money from this book. It's all going to the authors, donating it to charities. So it's.

[Andy]

Right.

[Sam]

It's interesting. I'm curious, like, did he ever express, like, any remorse over what he was really?

[Andy]

No. And. And here's another question that has come up periodically, because tragically this happens a lot of times with. With family murders. Right. Is that the husband will kill the family and then kill themselves. And, you know, we see that in, like, mass shootings. We see that in school shootings. And the question has come up, well, why didn't John do that? And the reason for it was that John knew that suicide was a sin that would prevent him from getting into heaven. And he was thoroughly convinced that once he got to heaven, he would be reunited with his family, who would welcome him with open arms. And so that's why he didn't commit suicide.

[Sam]

But couldn't you say the same for murder?

[Andy]

Well, except that it was murder because he was saving them.

[Sam]

Okay. Wow, logic. I mean, do you think he loved his family?

[Andy]

Yes, I do. I do. I think that, you know, the two prevalent school of thoughts. Because what do we always ask ourselves in these things, like the Watts case, the Murdoch, you know, is why. You know, why did so and so do this? And I think with John, there's two sort of basic theories out there, really. One is his, which has to do with the whole ruin of the family, the shame of the family. He couldn't allow that to happen to them. Yada, yada, yada, yada. And so this way he assured that they all went to heaven. And then, of course, the other side of it is he was just done and wanted to start a new life. And the only way he could do that was to kill them. Because we talk about what couldn't he. Divorce. No, in John's world, divorce was not an option because. And this is how I think both versions kind of overlap. Because in his eyes, if he divorced them, that would still leave them in this sense of financial ruin and shame and everything else, and even worse. So without him. Yeah, so I think there's an overlap. I almost wonder at times if the initial spark was, I really just wish I could start my life over. And then the rest of this kind of formulated itself as a moral rationale for it. You know, that feels right.

[Sam]

Yeah. That feels like. That makes. It's the practical. And then you're supplementing the intellectual, moral, religious underpinning to justify it.

[Andy]

Exactly.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Andy]

And. But I never heard him. And even if you ever get a chance to read the book, there's really never any expression of remorse or sadness because again, I think in his eyes, he sent them all to heaven. It was almost like the greatest thing he could have ever done for them. You know, warped and twisted as that may seem by any person standing on the outside. But as you well, know, digging into true crime the way that you do, it is hard to put a moral compass of any kind on, on things like this, you know.

[Sam]

Absolutely. I know. I believe I saw in at least one interview he kind of, kind of expressed remorse for doing what he did. But it was very, very brief and very like, not super like, oh, I'm sorry for killing my family. Just more of like, you know, almost like, I wish I had. It hadn't gone down the way it did or something, you know, so it's like.

[Andy]

Yeah, I think if he showed, showed remorse about anything, it was more about sort of being a part of the circumstances that led to that, you know, so if he really had remorse, it was the idea that he couldn't support them, you know, financially. He couldn't. This, he couldn't. I think that's the remorse. I, I have a hard time really thinking that he had a lot of remorse over the fact that he killed them.

[Sam]

You know, I, I want to ask you one thing that does get. You might bring up the Watts case. Has been. There's been numerous, like, family annihilator, kind of.

[Andy]

Sure. Oh, yeah.

[Sam]

One thing that kind of people opine once those happen sometimes in the cases where it's the father and husband doing the killing. This idea that they sort of see their family as extensions of themselves. Sort of a bit of a narcissistic belief of like, you're not your own individual people, you're an extension and a reflection of me, and therefore, you know, if I'm not there to take care of you, I might as well kill you or, you know, like, things like that.

[Andy]

Right.

[Sam]

Do you think that this is kind of a bit of a prototype, a little bit or kind of an example of that, or do you think it's a little more complicated?

[Andy]

Obviously, I don't know the sort of psychology behind Watts per se. I mean, we all know what he did, we all know what happened. And I don't know if he's had a deep dive analysis to bring that out. I will say that with John, I think that. I think that the religious factor certainly played a huge role in all of this. I think that he was, I think, almost always in some state of conflict and some state of turmoil. And I think that caused him such anxiety. He couldn't understand why these, all these companies that let him go would do that. He just couldn't fathom it, you know, because his ideas were so good and his, his concepts were so perfect. How could they not see that? You know, I do think It's, It's a very complex story. What I find interesting and, and especially, like you say with Watts and some of these other cases that people today who don't really know the list case, I heard so many things, like during the Murdoch trials, I heard so many people online and this, that and the other say, oh, well, nobody would kill their, their friends, family because of some sort of money thing. And, you know, this, that and the other, like, nobody would do that, you know, and. And I'm like, really? Because here in 1971, he. Here's a man that killed his whole family. And it was all rooted around money, you know, and it wasn't rooted around that he was going to inherit millions. It was just rooted around financial ruin, you know. And so every time I hear this in more modern cases, I'm. I'm like, well, go back and look, because there are cases that will clearly show you that people will kill for almost any reason you can come up with, sadly enough.

[Sam]

God bless you for saying that, Andy, because the amount of times in true crime, I want to scream, like, read a book at the, at the screen or, you know, whatever. In true crime, they're like, whenever someone is saying, this crime is totally unprecedented, unprecedented because of X, the vast majority of the time you can go back and find the same exact thing. There is nothing new under the sun. And I would, I would see your John list and raise you. Bradford Bishop, I think, Robert Fisher, that case, There was a case recently that's still. I think the guy's still a fugitive. So it's like, yeah, when people, when people say, how could you kill your family for money? A lot of people kind of do.

[Anya Cain]

So.

[Andy]

Sure, absolutely.

[Sam]

I don't know. We can't understand it necessarily. I mean, we can understand it, but we can't. We can't empathize with it because we're hopefully. Most of us are not people who are going to do that, but I mean, so it happens.

[Andy]

Well, and I think that in. Most recently, I think you look at the Lori Valo case, you know, the Day Bell case. And so when you take the religious element that, that John clearly had in his brain, look at what, you know, Lori Valo had no problem you know, conspiring with these people to kill her, her husband, her kids, her, you know, this, that and the other, and, and formulated all around this concept of some sort of religious, you know, thing of them being zombies or being dark or whatever it was. So, you know, it's not a big stretch to believe that you can become so engrossed in a radical religious sort of thing that it, it rationalizes for you to do almost anything.

[Sam]

You know, that's really well said. And it's funny, I don't think most people probably associate like Lutheranism with any sort of like radical, you know, Christianity.

[Andy]

But don't forget BTK was a Lutheran also.

[Sam]

So what's going on with you guys? No, I'm just kidding. I'm just, I don't know, I'm just kidding. I'm sure nothing wrong with the Lutheran. It's more of like in the right mindset. Any sort of worldview or religion could possibly be twisted to the point where you're justifying anything.

[Andy]

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean Manson showed us that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right?

[Andy]

You know, Manson basically took religion, took the Bible and you know, just sort of rewrote it so it was all about him. And then all of a sudden, you know, all these things, teenagers suddenly looked at him like he was the Messiah, you know. And yeah, it's, it's, it's scary in a lot of ways, but I, I don't think it's surprising. You know, I think that's the, I think that's kind of the scary part of it is that it's really not surprising. It shows you how many people out there are just looking for some answer and they don't care where it's coming from. Some crazed madman, you know, living on a, on an old western ranch in California or you know, whether it's, you know, somebody like Lord Chad Day Val, that's you know, a doomsday, you know what I mean? People, there are just enough people out there that have no answers in their lives and so they seek it out. And you know, a lot of times these, these people just know how to prey on that and manipulate it.

[Sam]

I think what's terrifying about John List to me is, you know, there's a lot of cases where, you know, we can see the red flags from a mil way and things are escalating and you, you can go and say, well, why didn't anyone stop them at this point? Or why didn't, you know, they, they divorced at this point or they could have gotten away at this point with John List he's really. So it feels like, and tell me if this is a misconception on my part. Feels like he's so self contained and so determined to carry out his plan that you know, I don't know how, I mean the red flags may be like, okay, he had a weird personality or very kind of up tight Tightly wound guy, but not necessarily like screaming mass murder to anybody until it's really too late.

[Andy]

Yeah, no, I would absolutely agree with you there. There is nothing. And I don't think you could find anyone that knew John, either is John List or Robert Clark that would ever say to you that they could see him killing somebody. Like it wasn't in his makeup. I mean, even his neighbors in Westfield, you know, he would mow his lawn in his suit. He would literally mow his lawn in his suit and his tie. He would be out there mowing his lawn. And you know, of course the neighbors are like, geez, you know, I mean, they all thought he was odd and they were weird. But none of his neighbors, like after the fact, you know, said, oh well, this didn't surprise me, you know, like. But isn't that always the case? Right? You know, Jeffrey Dahmer, they interview the neighbors. Oh, he was working in the garden with his grandmother all the time and he was, seemed like such a sweet guy. And you know, that's what you always get from the neighbors. So, you know, I think we like to, for our own purposes, create these people as monsters because it's easier for us to reconcile that this, that you can see a monster and identify him rather than, oh, it's just your neighborhood grocer, you know, like that's harder to accept I think for people that it's just somebody you know in the neighborhood, you know, and that sort of proves out, you know, with btk, with, with a lot of these people, they're just going about their normal lives except this alternate life that they have. And in John's case, it was really kind of he threw the switch and once the switch was thrown, that was it. There was no going back.

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[Sam]

Yeah, the level of black and white thinking with him, it seems like, you know, is something that, well, maybe if he'd never had the stressors, he wouldn't have gone that far. But with those stressors, that black and white thinking was going to lead him all the way down the line.

[Andy]

Yeah, and I, and I think John, you know, I remember John at one point he said that he was really had rethought whether to marry Helen because of course it turned out, and I don't know if I mentioned it, but it turned out that Helen was not pregnant and she told him she was not pregnant. But John being John had to carry through on the wedding because he had committed to that. But she wasn't pregnant. And John did speculate that he probably should have, when that came to light, called off the wedding. And of course now you look at it and go, and if he had, you know, what, what would he, what would have transpired? You know, if he hadn't married Helen, they hadn't had the kids, then, you know, obviously this wouldn't have happened. Would something else have happened? It's hard to say. It is quite the case. I will, I will tell you it is.

[Sam]

I do feel terrible for those kids. I mean with, with, with the daughter, it's like, you know, she was just, she's a teenager, she's a theater kid. I mean, she wasn't like, you know, like, I mean, like I, I mean kids experiment with stuff like that. It didn't mean she was going to hell. It's just kind of wild that he sort of saw this kind of typical 70s teen as some sort of harbinger of doom.

[Andy]

Well, and I think at one point he, he came upon Patty and some of her friends with a Ouija board. And so that like really sent him over the edge. He was like, you know, you can't have that in this house, house, etc and interesting enough, he tried in his own way to embrace the fact that she was a theater kid because one of the rooms in the mansion had a stage, you know, at one end. And so they, he would let the drama club come over and, and rehearse, you know, and they would sometimes build sets there. And you know, so he tried in his own way. I think his motivation was, well, if it's, it's here, I have, I can see it and control it. You know, I think that was the motivation for it. But you know, nevertheless, the other thing, and I will tell you this because there's a lot of documentaries and things like that on John on the List murders. And you know, like we talked about earlier to a degree with true crime out there with, you know, the, the, the media of true crime. I watched one the other day that I had not seen and it was this, this movie called A Killer Next Door. And it was a British, I guess, made movie and I had never seen it before. So I sat down, I watched it and five minutes into it, the amount of inaccuracies that they did was just so appalled. By the time I got to the end of it, I could not believe that they had put this out as. And if you Google it, a documentary on John List that comes up that they had put this out as a documentary because the story bore absolutely no resemblance to the actual story of the killings. Absolutely nothing.

[Sam]

It's a documentary and not like a fictionalization.

[Andy]

Well, you know, they don't present it as a fictionalization. And at the end of it you get that little caption thing that, you know, John was sentenced to X number of life sentences and blah, blah. So you get that little like wrap up at the end that presents itself like it's a documentary. But holy cow. I mean they got everything about the murders wrong. Where they took place, how they took place. They got all of that wrong. They got, I mean it's just, I mean it's a fanciful little like if, if they did, if John List was not the name and it was just, you know, John Smith and it was just a fictionalized movie, you'd go, oh, well this is kind of an. Yeah, this is, you know, kind of. But yeah, no, so I do not recommend it to anybody. If you actually want to know anything.

[Sam]

About the List case, what would you recommend? What's kind of gone into your research and are there any good sources that people who might.

[Andy]

Well, certainly the book, I mean, certainly collateral damage that John co wrote if for no other reason that it does give you a good background in him and his life and his version of events. Right. So it's really, it's. And it's rare, right? We know that it's rare that, that somebody like this that killed their whole family ever actually documents it. You know, there are also, if you, you go on YouTube, there are media interviews that he gave over the years. I believe Connie Chung did one with him and I forget there was somebody else. Those are another interesting insight to it. There is a movie from years ago starring Robert Blake Ironically enough, as John List. And While it's not 100% accurate, it captures a level of the flavor of. Of what went on, quite frankly. So, you know, and. And of course, there are. There are actually a couple. There was a. And I can't remember the name of it now. I think it's called Father Wants Us Dead. That's a podcast. That was an entire podcast about the List case. It might have been like 10 episodes, 12 episodes, something like that. But, yeah, that was a really good podcast. That was a really good podcast. And they. They did a real good job of accurately reporting, I thought. I. One other myth that I'll dispense, because it pops up anytime the listeners are talked about, is there was this story that went around for quite some time that the stained glass ceiling in the ballroom of the mansion. And it was a gorgeous ceiling, by the way. I mean, if you picture a ballroom and then the entire ceiling is this stained glass, you know. But there was. The stories that circulated for a long time was that after the home burned down, as they were going through and what have you, they came to the realization that the ceiling was Tiffany. And so the thought was, well, you know, if they'd only known, they could have sold the ceiling. Ceiling. Right. It's actually a urban myth because people did some diligence. And as you can imagine, a company like Tiffany that has been around that long documents very well what they have done over the years. And something the size of a stained glass ceiling would certainly be something in their archives. So that was dispensed. But I will share one other thing. So one of the letters that I had sent to John after I read the book, I asked him a series of questions for my own curiosity. And he sent me back a letter that said, you know, hello, Andy, thank you for your letter about the of the 20th. I was happy to hear that you found collateral damage of interest. I shall attempt to answer your questions to the best of my ability. And here we go into Methodical John. I asked him whether he had seen the Robert Blake film, you know, and he said, yes, I saw the Robert Blake film. Only about 10% of the program was accurate. I asked him if he was still in contact with any form, you know, friends and relatives, and he said, yes, he is. I asked him if Brenda was still alive, who was Helen's daughter from her first marriage, and no, she had passed away several years ago. Curiosity just made me ask, do you have any idea what happened to your car? Because it was discovered at Kennedy Airport. And he said, no, the police found it and did whatever police do with cars related to a crime. I asked him about the stained glass ceiling, because at that time they really had not definitively proven that it was not, you know, Tiffany. And he said, yeah, if they had known about it that it was Tiffany, that would certainly have helped.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Helped.

[Andy]

So it would help. I asked him if he had ever been able to visit the grave in Westfield, because certainly that grave existed during a period of time when he was still out, you know, and he said no, that he hadn't. That some friends had sent him some pictures of it. Oh, and, you know, here's another thing, and I. I failed to mention this, and I should have at some point. John, I think it was during one of his appeals, was diagnosed with PTSD from the military, and in fact, he received a. Monthly, you know, money every month because of it. And I asked him about it, and he said that, you know, he. He thought that perhaps if he had been diagnosed earlier, that, as he puts it, it might have saved us from the tragedy that occurred. So where do we more recently hear the word tragedy referred to when it comes to killing family members? Oh, that would be Lori Daybao, who, in everything in court, it was always this family tragedy. So it's kind of interesting that you span the years, you know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The, like.

[Sam]

Acknowledging what happened was awful without really taking ownership for actions that caused, you know, you know, directly led to that outcome.

[Andy]

Right. But, yeah, I. I, you know, like I say, I corresponded with John for quite a while, and then I knew that he had fallen ill. You know, he was in his 80s, so. And then that ultimately progressed into pneumonia, and he was put into a hospital, you know, as part of the prison system of that sort of. That's where he ultimately passed away. But he never, as far as I know, he never publicly or privately that I know of, ever really expressed what we would consider to be remorse.

[Sam]

Yeah, the closest thing I found was actually from that Connie Chung thing. I wish I done what I did. But, like, that's not even really making it clear because as you mentioned, there was maybe some regret around the fact that they were in financial straits or, you know, you.

[Sponsor Voice 1]

You.

[Sam]

That's such a vague statement that it's not.

[Anya Cain]

It.

[Sam]

It's kind of definitely not what we would consider, I think, like full remorse. But. But it's interesting and it gives a. Interesting insight into this mind, I guess. What was it like for you as somebody who's kind of doing some of this, you know, prison outreach, faith outreach and. And corresponding with. With Kind of a guy who's pretty notorious.

[Andy]

Yes. Well, I found John to be. And you probably picked up on this if you watched the Connie Chung thing. He was very mild, meek. He was not. Again, he was not a monster. I mean, you didn't look at him and go, you know, even though you knew what he had done. For me, it was probably the most eye opening about it was how normal he was. I mean, certainly he had some clearly OCD and who knows what other DD H D hd. You know, he had those issues going on, but on the, on the whole, he was a pretty normal person. He, he wasn't somebody that was spewing some bizarro, you know, religious rhetoric kind of thing. That wasn't part of it. You know, he was a pretty normal guy and he was the kind of guy that you could picture, like, you know, see sitting on a park bench downtown, reading a newspaper or, you know, somebody that was in your church or. And I think for me that was one of the most eye opening things was it. It altered my perspective in a lot of ways that when I would hear stories such as on your show, it became much more. Oh yeah, I can absolutely understand that. I can understand, you know, like the recent series you did on Timogen Kinju, which by the way, I loved even the three hour episode. Love the three hour episode. Thank you. You know, as many times as people go, well, why would they go back to him? Why would they go back to him? Why would they go back to him? You know, the flip side is that he wasn't a raving lunatic 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I mean, I think he's become more of that now that he's in prison. But I think at that time there was something charming about him. And there was, you know, there wasn't anything that when you saw him walking down the street, you knew that this was an abuser. And isn't that true in general? Right? I mean, like you guys have said and you're so true, abuse can happen to anybody and most people will never know that it's even going on. You know, and I think with, I think with List, you know, the thing for me was always understand that these people that do these horrible things don't have horns growing out of their heads. They don't have a swastika of carved in their forehead. They don't have, you know, they are on the whole, very normal people that go to work, that have jobs, that have friends, that have this. That's who these people are, you know, and so for me, that was probably the biggest, Biggest sort of eye opener about kind of meeting and. And I hate to say forming a relationship, but, you know, of, of having a somewhat regular interaction with John, you know.

[Sam]

Yeah, no, that, that correspondence that is. That is really illuminating. And I think it's good for everyone to remember people contain multitudes. And sometimes those multitudes are some pretty dark stuff and then. But other times there can be positive aspects to somebody's personality and maybe certain stressors prompt a certain horrible outcome. But, you know, and that doesn't excuse that. It's not about excusing bad behavior. It's more just understanding. And I think it's really important to. When people say, how could somebody without a criminal record or how could somebody who didn't have a, you know, a criminal background necessarily do something so horrible? It can happen. I mean, it can happen to some within a family or it could happen to strangers. It just. It does happen. It's maybe a bit rarer, but it's not unheard of.

[Andy]

No, not at all. And. And, you know, like I always tell people, serial killers like Israel Keys, you know, those type had to kill first once, right? They didn't. They didn't. It wasn't like they had already killed 20 people or so somewhere along the line there was that first victim, right? And so when you look at it at the people that like serial killers in particular and go, well, how about. Well, because, you know, they, they started somewhere. They all started somewhere, you know, and yeah, I think people are too quick to dismiss that. And then, you know, of course, as you guys have pointed out, at times, you have the innocent nuts that somehow think everybody is. It's a conspiracy. Everything is a conspiracy. The FBI, the CIA, you know, it's like Oliver Stone's jfk, you know, everybody. Anything that could be involved was somehow involved, you know, and, And I could talk to you about the Kennedy, President Kennedy's assassination. Since my uncle was there, I had some insight through that whole thing, but I could tell you his opinion, and everybody's that he knew and trusted was that Oswald did it by himself. Which Kevin will be perfectly happy with, I'm sure thrilled.

[Sam]

And maybe we want to have you back on for a second that specifically.

[Andy]

Or I could talk about when I met Charles Manson, but that's.

[Sam]

You know, you're. You're coming back, okay? It's just gonna happen. Sorry, Andy.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sorry.

[Sam]

You're gonna have to come back. You gotta do it. But I. But no, you're. You're you're right. And I think. But, yeah, the list thing. One thing that I find bizarrely refreshing about it, that's probably a horrible word to use in this instance, is that it.

[Anya Cain]

It is.

[Sam]

At the very least, it seems like he's acknowledging that he did do this. It wasn't like, oh, no, the. The gang broke in and murdered them. And then I was so scared, I ran away.

[Andy]

Like, right, right, right. They were odinists. Odinists in Westfield.

[Sam]

They were hippies holding a candle and saying, acid is groovy. Kill the pigs. You know, I mean, like, at least we didn't get that from this situation. But very fascinating. And. And I think it's really cool that you were, like, kind of corresponding with prisoners in that at that time. I think that's a. I think that's a cool thing to do. And just. I mean, obviously in this case, list is not. Rehabilitation kind of doesn't really come in the picture there. Given.

[Andy]

No, he was. He. He would have been eligible for parole in 75 years. So there was not a chance of that happening.

[Sam]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But.

[Sam]

But the concept in general of kind of reaching out to people in prison and, you know, maybe helping them and kind of like, giving them an outlet to correspond, I think is a great thing.

[Andy]

Well, because I do think there are people that go to prison, even for some pretty serious sort of horrific things that can be rehabilitated. I don't say that about everybody. I don't think anybody can be rehabilitated. I think there are people that need to go there and they throw away the key, you know, But I think that there are some. And especially when you have people that committed serious crimes when they were young, you know, when they were, you know, 18, 19, 20 years old, and, you know, now they're in their 40s, their 50s. You know, I think that there are some of them. And I understand there's a lot of victims, rights activists that are like, no, they should never be let out. They. You know, etc. And I understand that. I mean, if I was the victim, you know, the family member, I could understand that. But I do. And I have seen, you know, people who. I look back and I read like, you know, what their crimes were and what they did 25, 30, 40 years ago. And, you know, it's kind of like Shawshank, you know, it's. You know, it's clearly the person in front of me is not the person from 40 years ago.

[Sam]

Yeah, there's.

[Anya Cain]

There's.

[Sam]

I think rehabilitation is possible and should be the goal. And I think for A number of people, even murderers, I think that is possible. And you just have to look at it by a case, by case basis and look at things like the person remorseful, do they acknowledge the harm done? Are they seeking to make amends? Things like that. And, and that can kind of give us good guidance on when that is appropriate and, and sure, I think that's wonderful. But Andy, is there anything I didn't ask you about?

[Andy]

Oh, gosh, I don't think so.

[Sam]

I think we covered it. This was great. I really thank you so much for coming on. We're gonna have to have you back on to talk about Manson and Kennedy now. I feel like I'm going to be like seeing you in the background of pictures for all the time. Hey, there he is.

[Andy]

Yeah, maybe, maybe I'll just start getting posters of like killers behind me.

[Sam]

No, but seriously, it's been a delight talking to you. Thank you so much for coming on the program.

[Andy]

Thank you so much for having me on. I loved it. It was so good to like, quote, meet you.

[Sam]

I love it too.

[Andy]

And you better come to the east coast to do a book signing because, you know, I'll be here and, you know, plus you need to come back here to get some good pizza and some good bagels and, you know, all that good.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks so much to Andy. We really enjoyed talking with him and appreciated him taking the time to share his experience with us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us at Murder Sheet. If you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@Kevin TG.com if you're looking to talk.

[Anya Cain]

With other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as.

[Sam]

We often receive a lot of messages.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten Some threats. As a result, safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Andy]

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