A (9:31)

Yes.

B (9:31)

With. Do you remember who.

A (9:33)

Andrew Baldwin?

B (9:34)

No. Remember who was in the. Well, yeah, we were there to see a hearing involving him. But do you remember who was with us in the. Like, kind of like David Hennessey. David Hennessy. That was our first time we ever saw David Hennessy. So. So those are the murders that he is being charged, has been, you know, has pled to. He was represented by Michael J. Brown, that was Heuerman's attorney, along with Daniel Koish and Sabato Capone. And Ray Tierney was leaning the charge against him as the District Attorney, along with his team, Assistant District Attorneys Nicholas Santo Martino, Andrew Lee, Michelle Haddad, Lawrence Apizo and Alan Boddy. And this is a case that has spanned years. Okay. This is from the 90s onwards. This has involved the Suffolk County District Attorney's Office, the Suffolk County Police Department's homicide squad, New York State Police, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Suffolk County Sheriff's Office, as well as the Suffolk County Medical Examiner's Office, Suffolk County Crime Laboratory, the identification section of the Suffolk County Police Department, the New York City Office of the Chief Medical examinator Austria Forensics, MITotyping Technologies. United States Secret Service got involved to provide some of their technology, as well as the New York City Police Department. So this has been a sweeping situation. All of those agencies have contributed to the Gilgo Homicide Task Force, as it became known. And that is where that is basically the. The basic facts of. Of what happened here. And the women involved, their lives mattered. You know, these were young women, many of whom had children, many of whom had families. They did not deserve what happened to them. What happened to them is disgusting and sick and horrible, and my heart goes out to the families. But today we're finally, you know, in the aftermath of this plea agreement, and we can talk about what exactly happened. I can discuss a little bit about what we saw at the hearing. We weren't there.

A (11:39)

Obviously. We weren't there.

B (11:40)

We watched.

A (11:40)

It basically wasn't just the plea bargain accepted.

B (11:44)

Yeah. The video I watched from NBC New York, they can't film sworn testimony according to New York law. So the judge who was judge. Let's see. It was like, Maisie, I think he. Yeah, it was a Suffolk County Supreme Court Justice, Timothy Maisie. He noted, hey, I'm trying to balance public access. I can't do sworn testimony. But we saw the kind of beginning of it. They bring Rex Heuerman out, and what you have is Judge Mazzy sort of interrogating him a bit of like, are you okay with pleading?

A (12:22)

Yeah. Basically, this is all very standard stuff where it's the responsibility of the judge to make sure that the person making the plea is aware of what it means. He hasn't been pressured to do this, and it's his own decision or her own decision.

B (12:40)

And what did you think about his thoughts with trying to balance what he acknowledged is an important public access. This is an important case versus defending the dignity of the justice process and this person's rights, this defendant's rights, and. And upholding New York state law.

A (12:56)

That's a process all judges must strive to make. Some do a better job of it than others.

B (13:05)

We only saw a few minutes of him, but I. I like this judge. He kept him being like, obvious question, but I have to ask it. And he also. He complimented both attorneys on both sides, saying, these are impressive attorneys. They did un. He said they're unbelievable lawyers, meaning a good thing, obviously. And, you know, and. And Rex Heuermann, he's brought out. He's in a suit and tie. He's handcuffed at first, but he's unhandcuffed to sign something. Very calm, not emoting, just very. Just kind of like. Like it. You know, it's almost like nothing's happening. It's just very, very calm. So that's the hearing afterwards, there was sworn testimony where he, um, had to basically ally, you know, the judge started off asking questions like, how old are you? Do you read and write English? All of that went to establishing that, like, you know, he understands this and also the basis for murder. He has to be older than 18 or, you know, 18 or older. And that was something that Ray Tierney described later. But we get to the press conference, more details are given than about, you know, him pleading guilty to all of this. It seemed to take place in a basketball court in the Suffolk County Community College in Brentwood, New York. And this again, was yesterday, April 8, 2026. You families standing up there, along with many, many different law enforcement officials. And for me, this story had. Think back to a couple years ago. Think back to before the arrest, before any of this happened. This was almost considered, widely considered, an absolute black eye for Suffolk county and for law enforcement in that area. You have this guy murdering all these women, leaving them on this beach. No one knows what's going on, and it's like, they can't catch this guy.

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B (18:01)

it was like a big blunder. People would also link it to, you know, different stories of corruption within Suffolk county. And, and in, in fairness, like, there did seem to be some actual police corruption going on. I think some people definitely stretch too far when, when they're sort of like, oh, and they're therefore like directly covering it up. But there was an air of incompetence and like this situation is out of control. That is gone from that situation to being a triumph in the sense that this iteration of law enforcement was able to get it done and do so with aplomb, with a lot of different evidence coming in. And I think this press conference highlights that. In this press conference, I think a person who deserves a lot of credit for that turnaround with this case is Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tierney. He's the first person who spoke. He said, quote, this defendant walked amongst us play acting as a normal suburban dad, when in reality all along he was obsessively targeting innocent women for death. Powerful stuff.

A (19:07)

I also liked that he said that he didn't see this case as a political football to be kicked into the news on slow days or when it suited politics. You know, he's not the type of guy who would like go and have cameras shoot footage of him walking sadly on the beach or anything like that. He felt it played to the goals of this investigation to try to do a lot of this under the radar so that the killer, who again we now know as Rex Heuermann, would feel safer and not feel threatened.

B (19:43)

You want a serial killer like this or any sort of killer to feel safe because then they're not going to go destroy evidence. They think they got away with it. Why are they going to go and clean up their house or get rid of trophies or whatever? You want them to feel secure. And that is what Mr. Tierney was very much all about. He extensively thanked the victims families for keeping up pressure for years, for advocating for their loved ones. He talked about how the victims themselves, the evidence on, you know, that was left at the scenes ended up, you know, proving to be humans undoing. He talked about how thankful he was for all of the, the various law enforcement people who worked on this. And he talked about the victims, saying their mothers, sisters, daughters, and friends. And he felt like he got to know each of them through their surviving loved ones. And he thanked each family individually. He thanked the various investigators individually. We don't have to go through all their names, but it was an extensive list. And, you know, he talked about his chief investigator, for instance, from the Suffolk County Prosecutor's office. He said he's the best investigator I've ever worked for, and then joked that he feels like he does work for him sometimes. But this is Richard Zachary. He called him the architect of the grand jury, the grand jury that was assembled to bring charges against Rex Heuermann. He talked about phone experts. Phone technology ended up being extremely important because they were able to link Rex Heuerman's burner phone with, you know, the. The crime scenes and with. With the various, you know, kind of tie that all together and tell a story. The Federal Bureau of Investigation was super important. Tiffany Atai, with the New York State Police doing this, you know, search for the avalanche. It's just there are so many people. One thing that I thought was interesting is he also really noted that a lot of the retired detectives who worked on some of these cases, like Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack, they didn't just, like, retire and peace out. When they were called in, like, hey, we may have something on these cases. They were like, what do I need to do? Like. Like, they were all ready to go for trial for testifying, any of this stuff. He thanked his office, his. His ADAs, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, what they've done, and the forensic folks who were able to gather so much evidence in, you know, various steps of this, and, you know, just. It really, to me, even thank the att, Nextel, Sprint T Mobile, and Verizon, the For. For helping with the phone rank records going all the way back to 1993. And he thanked the, you know, Judge Maisie and his staff. What was remarkable to me was just the scope of this task force, like, just sprawling. He also said something that I say a lot in True Crime. So I was like, heck, yeah. He was like, oh, some people are like, this guy solved Gilgo. Or this guy saw Gilgo, like, basically, like, it's a team. Exactly. Like, think about a sports team, right? If you're playing soccer, maybe somebody did a really good job and scored a goal, but if the defense fell apart or if the midfield wasn't doing their job or if the goalie decided to just be spacing out that day, you wouldn't necessarily see the same result. That is what crime solving is. The myth of the lone expert detective who's going to come in with their pipe and, you know, play the violin and figure it all out is, is not, is not accurate. It's fun to read about in fiction, but it's not true. This is typically, especially with a big case like this, with so much evidence, this is typically going to be a team, a team sport. And when you had a dysfunctional, chaotic team in the beginning with this case, it didn't go anywhere. When you got together, a team of experts who were working together finally and moving toward a common goal, I think that is what made a huge difference here.

A (23:46)

I agree.

B (23:48)

Did anything stick out to you about some of the things Ray Tierney was saying?

A (23:52)

Well, as I mentioned earlier, I liked that he said he wasn't about getting publicity, that this was about solving the case. And you solved this case by keeping it quiet.

B (24:03)

Yeah, they didn't want to telegraph what they were doing to a guy who could then, you know, I think one thing I thought was interesting is he said, quote, this case closes and another one opens. There's still bodies on the beach. There's bodies in Suffolk County. There's no rest for the weary. And I, I will say, like, we as, as people who are on their media list, the Suffolk county prosecutor, the Suffolk County District Attorney's office is always sending out, oftentimes sending out releases about, like we're looking for, to try to identify these Jane Does. Like, they're very proactive and very much using the media to try to raise answers on some of those other lesser known cases. And I commend them for that because I think that's important. They're not just, oh, Long island serial killer, Gilgo Beach. It's like, no, I, They. They are doing other stuff.

A (24:46)

Yeah. And obviously all of those victims are tremendously important. And every victim of a violent crime, every crime victim, deserves to have their case solved.

B (24:56)

Ray Tierney did kind of go into a little bit about the mechanics of the plea deal and what that means. He noted that Rex Uerman pled guilty to three counts of murder in the first degree. And those were the cases of Melissa Barthelemy, Megan Waterman and Amber Costello. And those occurred between July of 2009 and September of 2010. And for each of those, he would get, you know, potentially life without the possibility of parole. And what Ray Tierney's asking for is those two run consecutively. So three counts of, you know, life without the possibility of all. So it'll keep him in prison. Forever. And then four counts of murder in the second degree, and those will be with Sandra Castillo, Maureen Brainerd Barnes, Jessica Taylor, and Valerie Mack, 25 to life also. They're asking for it to run consecutively in this allocution. He accepted responsibility for the murder of Catherine or Karen Vergata, but Karen Vergata's case he's not charged with, but it's more of, like, an acknowledgment, so there's no legal stuff around that, but it's more of just, you know, for. I mean, I think that's important for the family's closure, that they can know. Yes. He's. He's.

A (26:06)

He's the one that did it.

B (26:07)

He's the one who did this to our loved one. And Police commissioner, was there anything you wanted to say else about.

A (26:14)

No.

B (26:15)

Police Commissioner of Suffolk County, Kevin Catalina, spoke. Talked about, you know, this guy projects this calm, serene, grandfatherly image, but that was a lie. He's actually, quote, a sadistic, soulless, murderous monster. You also heard from Suffolk County Sheriff Errol D. Talloon, and he thanked the family of the victims. He talked about how, you know, listen, Suffolk county is a pretty populous place right in Long island, but still with their jail. They had. He talked about, like, I've worked in corrections for many years, but there's a lot of challenges when it comes to housing a very infamous killer, and they had to really uproot their systems. And his staff did a great job. Just because he said his goal was to keep this guy safe. He did horrible things, but he shouldn't be killed in jail.

A (26:59)

Yeah. And I think there so much happens behind the scene in big, true crime cases that we don't think about. We don't think about how, oh, we've. They've arrested this person. We don't think about, oh, what do they need to do to keep him safe, who's doing this? But all those are very important functions that deserve to be acknowledged.

B (27:19)

Yeah, I completely agree. And it also, you know, I think it's important to remember, like, sometimes I think the public has these ideas of these cases where it's almost very cinematic. It's not cinematic. You know, you have to have the daily logistics of, like, how do we arrange our jail functions in order to maximize this man's safety? And that maybe means, like, keeping him away from other prisoners or whatever. Like. Like, there's just, honestly, stuff like that that's not necessarily super sexy, but is very important because if they are lax with that and something happens, then that can Deprive everybody of, you know, some kind of conclusion here. So he said what was alarming to him was how ordinary Rex Heuerman has been. Just like a norm, just seems very normal, seems very ordinary. But he still did all these things. Special Agent in Charge Michael Rafa from the Federal Bureau of Investigation also spoke. He highlighted the importance of the partnership between the detectives, troopers, agents, the retirees who kept showing up. And he also thanked Ray Tierney for his resolve in this case. And New York State Police, represented by Trooper Chris Casal, spoke. He's the trooper commander for Troop L and talked about how they're never going to forget the victims, but this day needs to be about reflection, remembrance, and accountability. And then a kind of celebrity lawyer spoke up.

A (28:38)

Yeah, Gloria.

B (28:38)

Gloria Allred.

A (28:40)

Gloria Allred is someone who always seems to be involved in any high profile case. She spoke on behalf of the families of the victims.

B (28:48)

I don't think she represents all of them, but some of them she does.

A (28:51)

Yes. And she gave some of them also an opportunity to come up and say what they felt about this development of this plea deal. Because sometimes in cases you hear where the victims or the relatives of the victims are unhappy that there was a plea deal, they feel that represented something less than justice. So in this instance, some of the family members got to speak about what they thought about it, and they seem to be content with this development.

B (29:23)

I didn't hear any of. Now, listen, in a case this sprawling with so many families and so many family members, is it possible some of them are not happy about it? Yes, But I also think the people I can kind of throw out, some of the people she called just to kind of go over, these were the people who were representative of the. Their loved ones. And I thought it was kind of poignant they were accepting the plea deal on behalf of their murdered loved ones, which was kind of. It was poignant. So Allred set it up in kind of a dramatic fashion. She was like, I'll call upon them, and they can say themselves if they accept the plea deal. Kind of like some drama. But Megan Waterman's aunt, Elizabeth, Elizabeth Mazerve, she helped raise Megan's daughter Liliana. And they accepted. And Liliana actually said she was very thankful for everything the. The Gilligo beach task force has done in this case. Very haunting to see this. This, you know, this beautiful young woman speaking for her murdered mother. And it's just so sad that she had to go through life without her mom just because of this man's selfish accent that just. That struck Me as very sad and upsetting. Melissa Barthelemy's family was called, but I don't think they ended up speaking, at least at the podium. Jessica Taylor's mother, Elizabeth Beckil, kind of said, I'm glad this is over. As far as in pleading guilty, took a big chunk of stress off of me and my family and accepted the plea wholeheartedly. Melissa Brainerd Barnes children Nicolette and Dylan accepted the plea on behalf of their mother, Diane Doherty, who I guess helped raise Karen Vergata's sons. She said she was very thankful it came to a conclusion that brought peace to everyone. Allred did thank the dedicated lawn, the dedication of the law enforcement officers, and then called up Missy or Melissa Khan to share her feelings. That is Maureen Marine Brainerd Barnes sister. She thanked the district attorney, law enforcement, said the families are. Her family is forever grateful and that the guilty plea brought solace, Thanked the media for, for kind of keeping the story alive and said, today is about the women's lives that were stolen. She waited 19 years for this. She appreciated the bonds formed between the different families bound by this tragedy and said to every other family waiting for justice and in different cases, never give up. Your loved ones matter. She started crying and said she promised her sister she would never start stop searching for justice, and carried her sister with her wherever she went. And her. Her sister's life, Marine's life was more about the tragedy more than it was. Her life was about more than just the tragedy that took her. And I think that's important to remember. These women were very clearly loved. They had families, they had children. Allred noted that a lot of these women, you know, they were. They were engaged in sex work often, you know, to try to support their families, to try to support their children, you know, to get money. They may have not had the opportunities in life that some of us have been fortunate enough to get. They may have had tragedy happen to them before this even happened. They may have had, you know, just setbacks and struggles, but they were not bad people. And they were trying to make a life for themselves. They were trying to survive. They were trying to get money to survive and help their families do well. And what happened to them is a disgrace and just so, so horrible. But the families who spoke up, you know, were in favor of the plea. I just want to say, you know, I think I'm very happy that these families were happy with the plea. I think in Idaho, in with the case of the murdered University of Idaho students, one of the families at least was very vocally against the plea, while others were for the plea. I think people tend to focus on the family that was against the plea, which was the family of Kaylee Gonsalves. Ultimately, a prosecutor or a district attorney is somewhat bound by doing what they think is right for the case and hoping that that perhaps comports with what a family wants. But I just want to note something that people, you know, I don't think, reflect upon when we're talking about plea deals. If you can get a perpetrator in prison for life, no appeal, nothing, then it's over. Okay? For the most part, it's over, except when the media wants to do something on it, but there's no up, you know, they're not going to get out. But here, here's the other thing. When you go to trial, there are appeals, convictions can be overturned on appeals, and then the whole thing starts all over again, right, Kevin?

A (34:10)

Exactly.

B (34:11)

Like, I think there was actually a case recently where it was a bit high profile. It was Letitia Stauch, I think. I hope I'm saying that right. She was convicted of murdering her stepson, Gannon, and there was a whole trial. It was very. She was sentenced. She went to trial. First degree murder conviction, sentenced to life without parole. And then April 2, 2026, the Colorado Court of Appeals, where this case took place, determined that it needed to be overturned because one of the jurors was related, I believe, to someone in the prosecutor's office. So stuff like that can happen. When you do a plea deal, you avoid anything like that happening. There's been situations in the Alec Murdoch case. People are saying, well, you know, there might have been people for a while. People were like, well, maybe something happened with this court clerk. And, you know, when you have a plea deal and you, you know, take a plea, appeals off the table, you don't have to deal with any of that. And the family can rest knowing they can, you know, this guy's not getting out. He's not going to hurt anyone else. And accountability has taken place for their loved ones. So I'm just putting that out there. When people are kind of, like, upset about this stuff, I think that's important to note that, yeah, there can be elements of it that I imagine some people would find distasteful, but the benefits, I think, often outweigh the negatives. Not in every case, but at least in some of these cases, there was kind of an outburst a little bit from one of the family members when a reporter from the New York Post asked Gloria allred a question.

A (35:57)

Yes. One of the family members was upset because apparently at some point, the victims were referred to in a headline in the Post as sex workers.

B (36:07)

Yeah, And I thought that was interesting, and I wanted to unpack that. And the. And the question this guy asked was actually about, like, what the families think of Michael Brown. The defense attorney's statement about how Rex Herman wanted to spare the families of trial. I mean, imagine, they probably don't really care that much about that. Like, you know, if he wanted to spare them anything, he wouldn't have murdered their loved ones and hid it for years. But, you know, they said, you know, this basically wanted a New York Post to stop calling their loved ones sex workers and yelled, stop it. And Allred didn't comment on that because, I mean, it was kind of like, what. What is she supposed to say? That, in fairness, I. I mean, here's the thing I don't know about. I. I know that at the very least, the majority of the women that Rex Heuerman murdered were engaged in sex work. And that, you know, obviously, there's a lot of stigma around that in society. So I understand victims families might say, okay, what you're. They're. They're women. You know, like, why are you calling them sex workers in a headline? You're sort of defining who they are based on that one thing. I think the sex work element in this case is important to look at, because a lot of these women. I read the book Lost Girls by Robert Kolker. It's an excellent read, and it really gets to know the victims, and I would recommend people read it. But you learn that a lot of them were coming from situations where they, you know, like sex work was kind of what they felt they could do in order to make some money, and they were coming from economically depressed areas where maybe other opportunities weren't available to them. And I think that's important to note that this kind of thing where then they are, you know, becoming sex workers, that is a very vulnerable population where you do have bad actors who can come and prey upon them, whether it's people who are into human trafficking or abusive people who are, you know, essentially pimping out women or in this case, a serial killer. And I think, you know, the vulnerabilities faced by sex workers in society and the violence that can be inflicted upon them is something that we should not shy away from. And to me, these women being sex workers does not define them. They are human beings. That's what's important. It doesn't mean that oh, they had it coming. No, I hope, I would hope no one would think that. That, that's a horrible thing to think. It's, they were put into a position where they kind of felt they had to do this. And regardless of how anyone feels about that sort of thing, it, you know, this never should have happened to them. It's, it's very upsetting and depressing that it did. And I would hope that media outlets would be sensitive in terms of how they frame things. I think it's okay to mention that they were sex workers, but do we need it in the headline? Can we maybe think of a more humanistic and compassionate way to frame this, that these are innocent women who didn't deserve to die? You know, and, and leading with the sex work, I, I would imagine is probably what the families had more of an issue with. It's also possible. Again, I re, I read Lost Girls, which kind of focused on more of the, the women who were found on Gilgo Beach. So I don't know if every single one of these women were definitely engaged in sex work. So I don't know if maybe some families saying, hey, ours wasn. I don't know. But I mean, either way, it shouldn't matter. It's just, you know, I, I, I understand where they're coming from, where they feel like that's all they're focusing on, or they're, they're framing it in an exploitative way. But I, I do think that angle of it should be explored because it plays a role in what happened, and I think it plays a role in actually a lot of serial killer cases where you have serial killers who specifically target sex workers, because the nature of that work and it being illegal puts those people in a vulnerable position from the beginning.

A (40:10)

That makes a lot of sense.

B (40:11)

What do you think about that?

A (40:12)

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I agree with you. Well said.

B (40:15)

Oh, thank you. So Ray Tierney, at this point, sort of sweep swept in, kind of, kind of take back over. One reporter asked if the defendant, Rex Heuermann, was offered anything in the deal. You know, you think of a plea deal and you think both sides are getting something. And what Tierney said is like, well, they're going to dismiss three of the charges he was facing, but he's getting the maximum under the sentence. And, you know, I don't for that. And for the Idaho case, I don't feel like there was much of a deal to be gotten. It's like you're going to go away to prison for life and not be able to fight it anymore. Yeah, that's kind of game over. Yeah. Okay. A couple charges got dismissed, but it's not really. Not. Not really a deal I would want to take. So. Tierney was asked about an unidentified victim. I believe this victim was the Doe, a male Doe or a. You know, at least that's. So there were remains found April 4, 2011 at Gilgo Beach. The person had X Y chromosomes. It's not clear who they were because they also were found, like, seemingly wearing women's clothing. Could be a trans woman, could be a cross dressing person. Could. Who knows, you know, or. Or just someone who is identified as male but not conforming to, you know, gender, you know, roles. So I don't know who. I don't, you know, I don't want to misgender the dead, but I also, you know, it just. We don't know. They were. They're called Asian dough, which I kind of feel is, I don't know, like, kind of a weird way to put it. Maybe we. Maybe people could think of a different way to be. But they were ethnically Han Chinese. So I think this was the person the next reporter was asking about. And basically like, could Heuerman have killed that person as well? And Tierney said, you know, it's not about what I think, it's about what I can prove. And like, he's going to leave the conjecture and belief up to everyone else and going to focus on what he can prove in these cases. And God bless him for saying that, like, yes, thank you. You know, a lesser attorney would get up there and be like, oh, maybe we'll figure the clue. Maybe the clues indicate. He's like, I'm not playing that game. I'm not playing that game. If we have evidence, we'll do something with it. If we don't, you know, but we're going to follow the evidence. And that's exactly the responsible tact. He should be taken. One reporter asked him about like a fry hearing and like, oh, are you disappointed this wasn't tested on appeal? And he asked her if she worked for the defense. But, you know, I think this was a fry hearing that pertained to DNA evidence in the case and sort of debating what can be allowed and what should be allowed. And he said, the science is on our side and they feel like the law is on their side.

A (43:14)

And then when. Interesting thing is that Heuerman, as part of this, has agreed to speak with the FBI's BAU unit. These are the unit, I guess you would say, of profilers and the purpose of that is not investigative, but rather research to help these profilers learn about his behavior and perhaps gain insights into the behavior in the minds of serial killers, which they can use in other cases.

B (43:42)

Yeah, Behavioral Analysis Unit, you know, that think of the mind hunter situation, talking to different killers and learning about them so we can better understand the nature of serial killers. And you know, I think that's certainly valuable. I think one thing from reading books by John Douglass and Robert Ressler, and my favorite, the best one out of all of them, whose name is briefly escaping me, Greg McCrary. Yes, Greg McCrary, the OG and the best one, sorry, sorry, Wrestler and Douglas. But McCrary is the one with the common sense. Love him. And everyone should read McCrary's book, which is, Is it the Growing Darkness or the Unknown Darkness? Check that out. Okay, so yeah, so, you know, that's very helpful. That'll be helpful. But, but honestly, I think it'll only be as helpful as Rex Herman allows it to be. It depends on like if he's going to come in playing games and being manipulative. It's not going to be that helpful. If he's actually candid with the BAU Behavioral Analysis Unit people, then it will be very helpful. But sometimes people kind of put a big emphasis of like, oh, they should have made the, the killer in the Idaho case, they should have made him talk to them too, or they should have made him describe everything. I mean, if they don't feel like he's going to be honest or they feel like he's just going to use it to self aggrandize, that's not necessarily going to provide them with actionable data and information. You know, it can be helpful, but you know, usually it's more helpful if the person's like kind of willing to be like, yeah, I'll talk to you about this. And again, in some of these books where you have these FBI agents who are kind of, they're closer to the beginning of bau, they're going to different prisons and interviewing different killers. They'll tell you, I think Ressler talks about like, he would go to some killers and they'd like give him nothing and they would be really unhelpful and like, it would just be like, okay, this was a waste of time. Others who he kind of like built up a rapport with and got helpful information from. It was just a different situation. But it kind of really depended on how much the killer was willing to be like divulge. So yeah, that was really interesting. But I. I hope that it is helpful. It. He'll be only discussing the four corners of what he actually pled guilty to. So it's not like he's going to be like, oh, I also did these other five ones. You know, he's going to be talking about the eight victims that he's already admitted to, and that's it. You know, they. There were questions about why he allocated in the way they did. Ray Tierney explained, like, it has to do with how the law works in New York, and, like, you kind of have to, like, each element of the crime has to be proved. And so they had to factor that in. They talked about, like, what prison he'll be in. And Tierney noted that when he was a federal prosecutor, he had a lot more sway with the Federal Bureau of Prisons, but with the state, it kind of state Department of Corrections does its own thing. They asked him, like, oh, is he getting protected now? If he pleads to another victim, like, will he. Or, like, if there's evidence of another victim, will he not be charged with that? And he said that the only thing their plea deal said was there will be no new charges around the eight victims that have, you know, come up right now.

A (46:57)

Right.

B (46:58)

That doesn't count. Like, if some other case comes up, it. The plea deal does not cover that. You know, he. He notes that. He notes that he never chased a plea. And he. Until the allocution happened, part of him was like, it may not even happen. He may just be playing games. So they didn't try this case. They didn't work on this case in the anticipation of a plea deal. They just kind of ignored that. And, like, whatever happens, happens. And he also noted, you know, like, you know, they were asking him, I think, at one point, about different victims or could there be other victims. He said, quote, we don't presume he did or didn't do any other cases. We don't think anything. Basically, they start with the crime scene, they start with the evidence in that case, and then if that ultimately points to somebody, they go with that. But I think that's so responsible. And I would just caution people, in true crime, we need to erase this kind of concept of he did X, so therefore he must have done Y and Z. Okay, we don't need to run up the clock. We don't need to run up the count of victims. You know, like, we shouldn't make assumptions either way. We should go based on evidence. Now, if someone brings forward, hey, this case involved a sex worker, a woman doing Sex work in the, you know, New England or New York metro area in the 90s, 2000s, you know, early 2010s, and they went missing and never were found. Also, there's some, you know, something linking them to Long island potentially. I think that's fine to say. Okay, could that be related? Because it matches his modus operandi as. As far as we know it so far. I think that's fine, but I think, like, just assuming without having those specific cases that he must have done more is, is a trap.

A (49:02)

Absolutely. And we, we're both aware of cases where Israel Keys did everything or Henry, Henry Lucas.

B (49:12)

Henry Lee Lucas. Thank you. The OG Yeah, the OG like, let me just cop to everything. And you had law enforcement going in and being like, you did this one. All right, it's cleared, you know, and that's, that's a mistake. We don't want to do that. I think there's an inclination of excitement, of like, maybe we can clear all these cases, but, like, we shouldn't do that. We shouldn't assume he didn't do anything else. I think it's, you know, we should be open. We should be open either way, but we should not assume he did more. I really, I. That drives me crazy. If you, if a case matches what he's known to do, then I think that should be discussed in a responsible, sober minded way. But when we're just saying no, he did 30, 40, 50. Like, like, what are we doing at some point? You know, like, if we're not basing it off of evidence and we're just basing it off of vibes, then that's useless. Let's not be useless. True crime. That's all I'm asking, like, begging. I think my conclusion is Ray Tierney's a beast. I mean, what a great. I mean, like, this guy, I just like, applaud him and this whole team. I mean, Suffolk county, the shambles this investigation seemed to be in for many years. I really feel like they turned it around. I know Robert Kolker, who wrote that excellent book Lost Girls. He did an amazing article for New York magazine talking about some of the mistakes and some of how, like, this was like, kind of went off the rails for a while, but I feel like, and that, that should be studied. That should be, like, looked at. And it also should be studied of how you take an investigation that's floundering and how you turn it around, because it feels like these people did that. And we, we can hope for a better start to most investigations, but sometimes There just isn't that. And we need to also have people who are able to go in and turn it around, get it back on the right track and secure justice for these families who are so deserving of justice and these victims. So I, I'm like very impressed by, by Suffolk county and the district attorney there. And what were your thoughts?

A (51:21)

Yeah, I was impressed with him. I was impressed that he again, he was more interested in solving the case and getting attention.

B (51:29)

That's always a good sign when you have someone posing and preening for the cameras. You know, it's like, okay, you know, and I think him giving shout out to everyone who worked on this was also impressive because it's not just him being like, it's me, Ray Tierney. Haha. You know, I also. Gloria Allred grabbed the mic at the last moment and did say that, you know, the families are going to be able to ask, you know, there's always concerns of like, we would have seen more evidence at trial. She noted that the families are going to be able to ask the Suffolk County District attorney for some of that evidence for some of the more details that they might have seen at trial and that can be conveyed to them if they want it. Some may not, but some do want to know and that's going to be something that they can do, which I think is also nice. I appreciated the victim centric nature of this press conference and the victim centric way this was approached. And again, I feel so bad for these families to know that this happened to your daughter or your sister or your loved one or your mom. I can't even imagine what that's like. That is just horrifying. And I really wish them the best and wish them healing as part of this. And you know, I think we should all thank them for their advocacy in this case. They really refused to let this just lie. They pushed and pushed and it got results ultimately because they were able to kind of, you know, get a situation where they had a team of law enforcement and district attorneys who were able to, to make it happen. So I just, you know, it's, it's horrible. I, I think one, one. So when you read the indictment and read all the documents, like what he did to them is just so sick. But I hope we can all kind of, you know, remember that these women were human beings who were very clearly very loved and missed to this day. And that's what's important about them.

A (53:21)

Exactly.

B (53:23)

So is that all we wanted to say?

A (53:24)

I think that covers it.

B (53:26)

Absolutely. Well, thank you all for listening.

A (53:29)

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B (53:49)

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A (54:12)

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B (54:24)

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