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- [00:01]
A
This episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive, you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com, progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. Not available in all states.
- [00:21]
B
Hi, I'm Kevin, and in this episode, we're going to take a first look at one of the most controversial cases in recent memory, the murder of Charlie Kirk. Content warning. This episode includes discussion of murder. So before we get started, let's talk about the reasons, or at least one of the reasons why this case is so controversial. And I think it is because a lot of people tend to see this case through the lens of politics. Maybe your politics are very different from Charlie Kirk's and you see it through that way. Maybe your politics are very similar to his and you see it that way. And what we're going to try to do here, as much as possible is to take politics out of it altogether, as much as we can. It may not be possible to take it out altogether, especially if it would turn out that Mr. Kirk's political views may have contributed to the motive of the person who killed him. But other than that, I think you would agree, Anya, that generally speaking, the politics of a murder victim are not terribly relevant to the murder. We covered the murder of Abby and Libby in Delphi extensively. It would have been absurd to try to figure out what Abby and Libby's political views are.
- [01:56]
C
Yeah, it doesn't. It's not. I mean, to me, I think you're right. Politics, by all means, could have played into what happened here. Political, you know, violence, political assassinations can happen. But at the same time, I think us as people covering it, injecting our views of politics into it, or kind of like getting really into that side of it actually muddies the water more than clarifies it. And that's, I think, why we're trying to say we're trying to take it out as much as possible, and we're going to try to cover it almost with a sense of detachment, or people who are removed from that versus people who have some kind of vested interest. You and I are people who have personal politics. We have political views. I might say we have strongly held political convictions and beliefs, and that's fine. We're human beings. We're in. You know, just because we're making a podcast doesn't mean we have to divorce ourselves from that entirely. But I don't feel it would serve this story or covering this story to kind of put that in. I don't feel like that's why people should be interested in a murder case. I think a murder case represents an opportunity to get to the truth about something kind of horrifying and see how the legal process works. So you don't need to hear from us about our politics or our views on all the various politics involved. Yeah.
- [03:19]
B
At the heart of it, a murder case is about the careful examination of evidence and the analysis of that evidence to try to arrive at a conclusion about what may or may not have happened. And there's not necessarily a liberal or a conservative way of looking at evidence. At least there shouldn't be. No. And so that's our approach we're going to take. So our goal is for you not to get any hints whatsoever of what our political views are in this coverage. With that said, let's get started.
- [03:55]
C
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [03:57]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [04:00]
C
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [04:02]
B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.
- [04:08]
C
We're the Murder Sheet.
- [04:10]
B
And this is the murder of Charlie Kirk, the case of Tyler James Robinson. Well, before we get into the heart of this case, it might make sense to take a moment and just talk about who Charlie Kirk was. Charlie Kirk. Well, I'll quote from the probable cause affidavit. Quote, Mr. Kirk is a well known conservative activist, famous for these type of events where he discusses various political issues and debates with audience members, end quote.
- [05:27]
C
I think his group was called Turning Point usa. Turning Point Action. That was sort of the group he's affiliated with. I think he was 31 years old and he had two children with Erica Kirk, his wife.
- [05:41]
B
Right. And some of the views he held and shared these public meetings and elsewhere. I believe he also had a podcast. He had very active presence online. They attacked controversy in some quarters. Is that fair to say?
- [05:58]
C
Yes.
- [05:59]
B
Okay. With that said, when you want to know about a crime and there's been an arrest made in that crime, one of the first places you should look is at the probable cause affidavit. Ani, when I talk about a probable cause affidavit, what do I mean you're talking about?
- [06:20]
C
Well, it's essentially what it, what it. The label is. The probable cause affidavit is an affidavit usually filled out by a law enforcement officer investigating a case, highlighting why they have probable cause to either search an area or, or arrest somebody usually.
- [06:39]
B
Yeah. So basically it's the government saying, here's why we think we need to arrest this person. Here's at least some of the evidence we have against this person for this particular crime.
- [06:50]
C
Probable cause is like a specific standard too, right. That it kind of has to raise to. I think it's not, it's not as like, high as, you know, beyond a reasonable doubt. Right. It's. I think it's the reasonable belief that a crime has either been committed or that evidence of a crime exists somewhere. So it's a reasonable belief.
- [07:11]
B
Right. So I'm, I'm going to read a little bit from this probable cause affidavit in this case. Well, maybe I'll end up reading quite a bit from it, but I want to start with kind of the basic summary of the case. Quote. On September 10, 2025, at approximately 12:23pm, Charlie Kirk was shot and killed while speaking to a large crowd on the campus of Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah. Police found the suspected murder weapon, a bolt action rifle, nearby. Over the next approximately 33 hours, police conducted a manhunt for the shooter until the evening of September 11, 2025, when Tyler James Robinson surrendered to police at the Washington County Sheriff's Office. DNA consistent with Robinson's was found on the rifle's trigger. After shooting Mr. Kirk, Robinson hid the gun, discarded the clothing he wore when he fired the rifle, and told his lover roommate to delete incriminating text messages and not to talk to police. Children were present at the time of the shooting. So that's kind of an overview of what, what they have, what the crime was. And with that said, they then go into a bit more detail about both the crime and the investigation. Should I read that or do you have any comments on that summary?
- [08:41]
C
No. I mean, not really.
- [08:43]
B
Okay, I'm going to read some excerpts from this. PCA Turning Point USA, a nonprofit organization founded in 2012 by Charlie Kirk, organized a public outdoor event to be held at noon on September 10, 2025. The event was announced far in advance and garnered significant publicity and interest. Consequently, several hundred people attended. Mr. Kirk was interacting with the crowd before the event officially got underway. Then, Approximately at noon, Mr. Kirk seated himself under a portable canopy behind a table and microphone. He began speaking to the crowd and fielding questions from attendees, a format Mr. Kirk commonly used at his events. Mr. Kirk allowed his questioners to approach a microphone positioned directly in front of him. Mr. Kirk's team members were very close to him on his right and left, as well as some behind his canopy and others at various close locations near him. The large crowd surrounded Mr. Kirk on three sides. Temporary metal fencing separated attendees from Mr. Kirk by only a matter of feet. Directly above and behind Mr. Kirk was the UVU hall of Flags, an indoor walkway spanning several hundred feet with floor to ceiling glass windows which overlooked the plaza where Mr. Kirk was seated. People were in the walkway at the time of the shooting. Approximately 15 minutes into the event, Mr. Kirk was answering a question about mass shootings by transgender individuals when a gunshot rang out. The bullet struck Mr. Kirk in the neck. He slumped to the ground almost immediately. The bullet's trajectory passed closely to several other individuals. Individuals beside Mr. Kirk, including the questioner, who was standing directly in front of Mr. Kirk. Children were visible near Mr. Kirk's stage when he was shot. Mr. Kirk was rushed to a nearby hospital where he was declared deceased. I'll stop reading from there. So they're kind of painting a picture of the scene. Massive crowds very close to Charlie Kirk on three sides of him. I think most of us have probably seen some video of the event.
- [11:12]
C
Yes, unfortunately, I've seen the video of him getting shot that kind of went viral in the aftermath. It was pretty disturbing.
- [11:20]
B
It was very disturbing.
- [11:22]
C
I would not recommend watching that for anyone who hasn't seen it.
- [11:26]
B
Yeah, if you haven't seen it, don't seek it out.
- [11:30]
C
It's, it really says something. And it's a choice by tech companies. The fact that we basically, there's like a decent possibility we could all see a snuff film every day upon logging onto social media platforms.
- [11:43]
B
Yeah, I remember I, I, I didn't particularly want to see this footage of Mr. Kirk being murdered, but for a few days, when you would log on to different sites like X Twitter, it, it would just pop right up.
- [11:59]
C
Yeah, it was inescapable. It was very disturbing. And I feel like it's not, it's not good for people to see stuff like that. It's, you're watching a man die, but
- [12:12]
B
yeah, it doesn't sound like there was terrific security there.
- [12:16]
C
Right.
- [12:17]
B
Is that your impression from that description?
- [12:20]
C
I mean. Yeah, I guess, I guess not. No one's necessarily expecting a sniper either, which is kind of the style of attack here. This is a situation where the shooter, you know, no one's been convicted yet, but where the shooter has, you know, does not need to be getting super on top of him. They can be kind of out of sight and being able to aim.
- [12:41]
B
Right. Let's talk about where the shooter was as we read continue to read this PCA quote At the moment of the shot, a UV police officer was watching the crowd from an elevated vantage point. As soon as he heard the shot, he began to scan the area for threats. Believing the shot came from a rifle because of its sound, he looked for potential sniper positions. He noted a roof area approximately 160 yards away from Mr. Kirk as a potential shooting position and rushed there to look for evidence. The suspected shooting position is adjacent to an open, publicly accessible walkway. To access the suspected location, a person must climb over a railing and then drop to the roof only slightly below. The UVU officer climbed over the railing and down onto the roof. He then walked to the suspected shooting position and confirmed a clear shooting corridor between the position and Mr. Kirk's seat. He also noticed markings in the gravel rooftop consistent with a sniper having lain on the roof, impressions in the gravel potentially left by the elbows, knees and feet of a position in a prone shooting position. End quote I think it's really interesting that so soon after the shooting they were able to isolate the location of the sniper and were able to uncover some pretty convincing circumstantial evidence that this indeed was where the shots came from.
- [14:19]
C
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C
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- [17:27]
A
this episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever find yourself playing the budgeting game? Well, with a name your price tool from Progressive you can find options that fit your budget and potentially lower your bills. Try it@progressive.com Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match Limited by state law not available in all states.
- [17:47]
C
That is some quick and you know, good police work by that police officer who was on the scene, presumably doing security. Unfortunately, you know, that was unable to prevent this from happening obviously, but not that he would have been able to from his vantage point, but at least he was able to I guess kick off the investigation on the right foot.
- [18:08]
B
Right. And one thing to keep in mind these days is there are cameras everywhere. And so I'm going to go back to the PCA quote. Police reviewed surveillance from the camera covering the roof and discovered that it recorded an individual dressed in dark clothing cross the railing from the public walkway and drop onto the roof at approximately 12:15pm Although the individual moved out of the camera's view for a short time, the camera again captured the individual running across the roof and then low crawling to the area the UVU officer recognized as where the suspected sniper had dropped into a prone shooting position. After a short time, which matches the known time of the shot, the individual arose and ran across the roof to the northeast. This discovery led to an intensive review of UVU surveillance recordings. Surveillance revealed the following. At approximately 11:51am the suspect entered campus from the north. He is seen wearing a black shirt with an American flag in its center, a dark baseball cap and large sunglasses. Throughout the surveillance, the suspect keeps his head down and rarely raises his head enough to get a clear image of his face. As he proceeds across the campus, he is seen walking with an unusual gait. The suspect walks with very little bending in his leg, consistent with a rifle being hidden in his pants. This unusual gait continues until the suspect is seen crossing the railing off the open walkway and onto the roof where he leaves the camera's view end quote there for a moment. So this is pretty good evidence. They've got this suspect, the suspected sniper, who at this point they have no idea who he is. They've got him coming on campus, they've got him walking in a way which suggests he's hiding a rifle in his pants. That's pretty good evidence.
- [20:15]
C
Yes, I agree.
- [20:18]
B
Back to the pca, I want to
- [20:20]
C
actually add one thing. I think this, it's certainly a case that highlights, as many modern day cases do, the importance of, you know, this kind of surveillance network of cameras that are everywhere. And it feels like everyone's always getting picked up on cameras. But at the same time, it also underscores that just because the suspect is picked up on camera does not mean that they're going to, that police are gonna be lucky enough for the person to like kind of look up and give a full, you know, face view exactly. To the camera in a way that it can be used to be like, okay, that is a definitely this guy. It's an important clue and is obviously gonna play into what, what ends up happening here. But cameras are not always going to be the end all be all. Some cameras are blurry. Sometimes the suspect gets lucky and doesn't isn't captured in a way that can be like, oh, everyone immediately knows who it is. So I mean, I'm just saying like we can't really put too much on cameras all the time.
- [21:14]
B
I also think it's interesting when you Consider the size of the crowd that was there, you may be forgiven for thinking, oh, with all those people there, it would be pretty difficult to figure out which one of them was the shooter. It would probably be pretty easy for the shooter to just blend into the crowd. Certainly that is something you would expect to see happen in a movie. But in order to get into the position to fire the shot, this person needed to separate himself from the crowd, which actually made it pretty easy to find and identify him.
- [21:50]
C
Right, so exactly. I mean, it. It makes sense because he's not doing what the rest of the crowd is doing. He is positioning himself to murder somebody.
- [22:01]
B
I'm gonna get back to this pca. Immediately after the shot was fired, a camera captures the suspect running across the roof carrying an item whose shape is consistent with a rifle. The suspect is then seen climbing down from the roof. He appears to drop the item he was carrying as he hits the ground in a controlled fall. He then picks up the item and runs towards the northeast end of campus. Law enforcement officers follow the suspect's escape path to the northeast end of campus, where they believe the suspect left campus and entered a wooded area. In that wooded area, investigators found a bolt action rifle wrapped in a towel. The rifle contained one spent round and three unspent rounds. This is consistent with the facts officers observed at the time of and immediately after the shooting. No shell casings were found on the roof, suggesting a bolt action rather than an auto loading weapon. And only a single round was fired. So this further confirms to the police obviously what we think happened. What we think happened. We were having some evidence for, we think this guy was firing from this position. We think, oh, we see him leaving with something that looks like a rifle. He goes into this area, they go to that area, they find a rifle. So this clearly means that they are on the right track. Is that fair to say?
- [23:28]
C
Absolutely. I mean, this is, again, I think, a competent, you know, piecing together of the evidence. I know when this initially happened, there was a lot of immediate concerns that the. The person was not apprehended at the scene. I think when we, when we see kind of like a high profile thing like this, we were often hoping, okay, the guy is caught immediately. But to me, that's not necessarily like a super reasonable expectation because different scenes are different and different circumstances are different. But you can certainly see the work investigators put into just sort of piecing together this guy's movements and getting the murder weapon, obviously is huge.
- [24:06]
B
That is huge. That is unbelievably huge. They also Discover some unspent cartridges at the scene. Written on them are things like, hey, fascist, catch, or if you read this, you are gay. So those are some messages on these cartridges. I'm going to get back to the PCA here. Quote, DNA consistent with Robinson's was found on the trigger. Other parts of the rifle, the fired cartridge casing, two of the unfired cartridges, and the towel, end quote. I think it is important to say a few words here stressing the difference between DNA identifies a person as X or this DNA was consistent with that person. Basically, when DNA identifies a person, this means it has to be this person and no one else. When we say DNA is consistent with this person, that means there is nothing in that DNA that excludes the person in question. But perhaps it could also be another person's DNA. Is that fair to say?
- [25:12]
C
Yeah. So my understanding from this is, therefore they don't have a full profile.
- [25:17]
B
Yeah, that's my understanding.
- [25:18]
C
Okay. So they don't have a full profile. So that basically means that if I, you know, to use our stupid usual example, if I steal a bunch of cereal from Walmart and I leave a partial profile, say, on the door, then they can say, well, it could be Anya, could also be a bunch of Irish women and, you know, women of Irish descent. Whereas if you are looking at, or maybe just like a Caucasian woman, like, that doesn't really narrow it down. But I'm definitely in the in group if that's the case. Whereas if it's a full profile, you can say, no, it's Anya. We know it's Anya. We nailed her. So I think that's kind of. That's the difference there. And that's just. That's just about amounts, right? I mean, it's like not in. In every circumstance, a killer's not going to necessarily leave a full profile. Obviously, like it being on the murder weapon, that's important, but it's probably like, it's probably touch DNA, which you and I know is the worst kind of DNA. I mean, it can be certainly very helpful, but it's often a little bit more fragile than some, you know, than say, like blood or saliva or semen.
- [26:27]
B
Exactly. Well, said the. The police at this point, they put out some images from the surveillance of their suspect. The next development happens the next day. I'm going Back to the PCA. On the evening of September 11, 2025, as law enforcement continued their investigation, Tyler James Robinson went to the Washington County Sheriff's Office with his parents and a family friend to turn himself in. Robinson's mother stated the following to police on September 11, 2025, the day after the shooting, Robinson's mother saw the photo of the shooter in the news and thought the shooter looked like her son. Robinson's mother called her son and asked him where he was. He said he was at home sick, that he'd also been home sick. On September 10, Robinson's mother expressed concern to her husband that the suspected shooter looked like Robinson. Robinson's father agreed. Robinson's mother explained that for over the last year or so, Robinson had become more political and started to lean more to the left, becoming more pro gay and trans rights oriented. She stated that Robinson began to date his roommate, a biological male who was transitioning genders. This resulted in several discussions with family members, but especially between Robinson and his father, who have very different political views. In one conversation before the shooting, Robinson mentioned that Charlie Kirk would be holding an event at UVU which Robinson said was a stupid venue for the event. Robinson accused Kirk of spreading hate. Robinson's father reported that when his wife showed him the surveillance image of the suspected shooter in the news, he agreed it looked like their son. He also believed that the rifle the police suspected the shooter used matched a rifle that was given to his son as a gift. As a result, Robinson's father contacted his son and asked him to send a photo of the rifle. Robinson did not respond. However, Robinson's father spoke on the phone with Robinson. Robinson implied that he planned to take his own life. Robinson's parents were able to convince him to meet at their home. Robinson implied that he was the shooter and stated that he couldn't go to jail and just wanted to end it. When asked why he did it, Robinson explained, there is too much evil and the guy, Charlie Kirk, spreads too much hate. They talked about Robinson turning himself in and convinced Robinson to speak with a family friend who is a retired deputy sheriff. At Robinson's father's request, the family friend met with Robinson and his parents and convinced Robinson to turn himself in, end quote. So a very interesting series of events here where Mr. Robertson's own family members began to suspect that the shooter was their son. And they even had conversations with him where it doesn't sound like he explicitly confessed to them. No, but it sounds like that he made incriminating statements.
- [29:54]
C
Yes, he, he, he, he, he was saying things of concern, you know, that that would make, I think, people worry that he might be involved, but nothing to the effect of I did this and, you know, kind of coming out and saying it.
- [30:14]
B
And it also sounds that we're getting some hints here of a potential motive.
- [30:19]
C
Right. Nature of it, or saying that, you know, I feel this person spreads hate. You know, something. Something like that can go towards a motive for, you know, potentially murdering someone for political reasons.
- [30:34]
B
And also, Mr. Robinson had begun a relationship with his roommate who was transitioning to a different gender. And he believed that Mr. Kirk was not very tolerant of people in that position.
- [30:47]
C
Right, right. I mean, yeah, I think that's. Again, that's not really necessarily anything that's. I think, you know, disagreeing with Charlie Kirk doesn't necessarily make me think someone's gonna go do something violent. I think that's what's surprising about this case to me. And we can get more into this later. But there weren't, like, a lot of things in Robinson's background that would kind of make you think, okay, this guy's going to become violent versus just not liking a political activist. There's a real, you know, there's a big gap there. And it's like, how. How do you go from being someone who others perceive as, you know, not necessarily going to be violent, not necessarily going to be a threat to somebody who is, you know, you know, being. And I wonder if that's something that's going to be, you know, in trial, you know, kind of their kind of. The prosecution may be getting more towards how do you go from just having those political feelings and those political beliefs to then, you know, acting upon it in this specific way?
- [31:50]
B
So we mentioned there Mr. Robinson's roommate, who Mr. Robinson was involved in a romantic relationship with. I want to read a little bit of what the PCA says about what happened next. Quote, police interviewed Robinson's roommate, a biological male who was involved in a romantic relationship with Robinson. The roommate told police that the roommate received messages from Robinson about the shooting and provided those messages to police. On September 10, the roommate received a text message from Robinson which said, drop what you are doing. Look under my keyboard. Look. The roommate looked under the keyboard and found a note that stated, I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk, and I'm going to take it. The following text exchange then took place. Anya, why don't you and I read this text exchange when you play the part of the roommate and I will play the part of Mr. Robinson?
- [32:49]
C
Okay, I'll start out then.
- [32:51]
B
What?
- [32:51]
C
You're joking, right?
- [32:54]
B
I am still okay, my love, but am stuck in Orym for a little while longer yet. Shouldn't be long until I can come home But I gotta grab my rifle still to Be honest. I'd hoped to keep this secret till I died of old age. I'm sorry to involve you.
- [33:10]
C
You weren't the one who did it, right?
- [33:12]
B
I am. I'm sorry.
- [33:14]
C
I thought they caught the person.
- [33:17]
B
No. They grabbed some crazy old dude, then interrogated someone in similar clothing. I planned to grab my rifle from my drop point shortly after, but most of that side of town got locked down. It's quiet, almost enough to get out, but there's one vehicle lingering.
- [33:33]
C
Why?
- [33:34]
B
Why did I do it? Yeah, I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can't be negotiated out. If I am able to grab my rifle unseen, I will have left no evidence. Going to attempt to retrieve it again. Hopefully they've moved on. I haven't seen anything about them finding it.
- [33:54]
C
How long have you been planning this?
- [33:57]
B
A bit over a week. I believe I could get close to it, but there was a squad car parked right by it. I think they already swept that spot, but I don't want to chance it. I'm wishing I had circled back and grabbed it as soon as I got to my vehicle. I'm worried what my old man would do if I didn't bring back Grandpa's rifle. I don't know if it had a serial number, but it wouldn't trace to me. I worry about prints. I had to leave it in a bush where I changed outfits. Didn't have the ability or time to bring it with. I might have to abandon it and hope they don't find prints. How the fuck will I explain losing it to my old man? Only thing I left was the rifle wrapped in a towel. Remember how I was engraving bullets? The fucking messages are mostly a big meme. If I see notices bulge u dub uvu on Fox News, I might have a stroke. All right, I'm going to have to leave it. That really fucking sucks. Judging from today, I'd say Grandpa's gun does just fine. I don't know. I think that was a $2,000 scope. Delete this exchange. My dad wants photos of the rifle. He says Grandpa wants to know who has what. The feds released a photo of the rifle and it is very unique. He's calling me right now, not answering. Since Trump got into office, my dad has been pretty Die Hard maga. I'm going to turn myself in willingly. One of my neighbors here is a deputy for the sheriff. You are all I worry about, love. I'm much more worried about you. Don't talk to the media. Please don't take interviews or make any comments. If any police ask you questions, ask for a lawyer and stay silent. End quote. What are your comments, Anya, about that text exchange?
- [35:48]
C
It's. It's bizarre in the sense that you have this person, Robinson, claiming that he doesn't want to involve his roommate and romantic partner in this mess, and then what does he do? Immediately texts the roommate slash romantic partner and involves them in this mess. So it's sort of like. I don't know. I mean, it just strikes me like, if you don't want to involve someone, don't involve them. When, you know, when you're kind of dragging someone that you purport to care about into this situation, it's like he couldn't keep it a secret for, you know, he's saying, I wanted to take it to the grave. Well, why. Why did you then immediately break that? It sounds like his parents kind of recognized him. Like, you might recognize your child. Right. You know, like the gate, the look. Even if you can't see a face, you're like, we don't know where Tyler was that day, and this looks exactly like him. And, you know, he's. He's complained about this person in the past, so it didn't really sound like he was. He had. He was gonna get away with it or, you know, that he was gonna get out of this unscathed anyway, because the parents were gonna come forward pretty quickly. But just the fact that the roommate seemingly cooperated with police and. And, you know, was sharing all this with them, it just the lack of judgment, I guess, on Robinson's part. Now, listen, he hasn't been convicted yet. I'm not. I'm not trying to say, okay, this is the end all be all and whatnot. People make false confessions. Right. But, yeah, this is pretty damning.
- [37:29]
B
I mean, it is pretty damning. Yeah. I want to make the obvious point. Those are highly incriminating statements.
- [37:38]
C
Yeah.
- [37:38]
B
And he is revealing information about where the sniper left the weapon. He's revealing information about how the. The weapon was hidden in a towel. He's basically saying, I did this.
- [37:54]
C
And he's saying what was on the bullets.
- [37:55]
B
And he was saying what was on the bullets because that the. The. The phrase mentioned there was another phrase found on the bullets. I don't think we read that one. I apologize for that.
- [38:04]
C
Yeah. You didn't read two others? I think. I think there were four in total, and I think the other one was, oh, bella, chow, bella chow, Bella chow, chow, chow.
- [38:17]
B
So not only are they incriminating statements, but I think we have to give Those statements some credence because he has these additional details. And so if you want to make an argument for Mr. Robinson being factually innocent, for Mr. Robinson not being the shooter, you have to explain some of this stuff away, don't you?
- [38:41]
C
You, you certainly do. And I, I have some feelings about how, how some people will go about doing that.
- [38:47]
B
But you want to share those feelings?
- [38:49]
C
Well, I think it'd be, you know, conspiracy theory. It's all planted, it's all fabricated, the government is controlling everything, blah blah, blah, you know, like it can't be a low key conspiracy theory. If you're going to go with conspiracy theory in this case, you have to have everything is being stage managed controlled. It's all fake. The whole thing is fake. It's not like a little bit of fake and a lot of real. It's like all planted. So that would be the conspiracy angle. I do want to also, I mean, what do you think? There's a level of self importance right where, and I think I remember interviewing some, some folks, you know, we were talking about like political violence and there they said like it was a former ATF agent, Bernard Zapier, he was telling me, when you look at this, regardless of ideology, regardless of politics, even you know, from, from people who are doing domestic terrorism to people who are doing, you know, Islamist inspired terrorism like isis, he said like there's often kind of a personality type. There's a level of alienation and there's a level of self importance almost where it's this kind of like, I'm gonna kill somebody because that's what I believe. You know, there's like, like, you know, why do you need to do that? You can, you can, you can certainly disagree or protest people that you don't like or if they're saying stuff you find hateful, there's, there's all these pro social, non lethal ways of channeling those feelings into action.
- [40:21]
A
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- [40:41]
D
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- [41:07]
B
Grocery outlet bargain market.
- [41:11]
C
Early birds Always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets you closer to the action. So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on VRBO and save over $120. Rise and shine. Average savings $141. Select homes only. You know, and trying to counteract that, change people's minds, push back. No one's saying that everybody just has to accept what one person thinks or think that they're good or, you know, not push back against it. But to actually think, oh, yes, this justifies me carrying out a murder. It just takes a special kind of personality, I think, where there's this almost nihilistic, you know, kind of like. I don't know, I really. I sometimes wonder, like, is the. Is people's use of, like, the Internet or social media? Like, I hate. I hate. Like. I don't want to sound like, cliche, because I feel like everyone says that, but is there something that's almost like, dehumanizing that to the point where it's like taking younger men especially and, like, you know, kind of like, I don't know, like, wrecking them in the sense that then they think, oh, yeah, this is a good idea. I don't know. It seems really bizarre. And again, like, if this per. If Robinson's goal is to almost, you know, support his trans roommate who he claims to love, who he claims to. Claims to care about, calls this person my love. And. And I'm not using pronouns because I don't know what this person's pronouns are. I don't want to be disrespectful, so I'm kind of, you know, that's. That's intentional on my part. But, you know, like, if. If this is a person they love, you know, you've just put them in this disastrous position where you are putting them at the center of a murder case. Now, is that. Is that really, like, something that you do for someone you love where you're upending their life and then immediately texting them about it to the point where now they're, you know, if they don't come forward with this now, then they're implicated, you know, And I'm like, you know, it's just. It's bizarre, you know, Is that, like, how do you square that?
- [43:17]
B
Yeah, I agree with everything you're saying. It's very well said. I also make a couple of points. First of all, murder is wrong for moral reasons. I, one bias I will freely confess to is I'm against murder. Yeah, we're an anti murder show murders in our name, but we are not,
- [43:41]
C
we're not the pro murder sheet, we're the anti murder.
- [43:43]
B
I, I'm against murder. I don't like taking people's lives. I, I'm against it. So, but let's leave that aside for a moment. That, that the moral considerations there are enormous, the humane considerations there are enormous. But let's just temporarily set them aside and point out this sort of thing doesn't work. I can't think of an instance where there was someone going around espousing a particular point of view and then that person gets murdered and everybody says, hey, the guy that shot him has a point. When you, when you shoot someone whose speech you don't like, you're creating a martyr, you're creating a hero.
- [44:27]
C
Yeah, I mean, I, I don't, I don't claim to know enough about the history of politically motivated violence to be able to say it never works or it's always, I mean, I just think morally it's always wrong. It's, you know, that's just not inappropriate. There's all these, again, as I said, there's pro social things you can do to counteract messaging or political activism that you feel is wrong or, or leads to hate. I mean those, those are valid things to do. You know, stand up and say, no, this is, this is how I feel. And let's, let's push back against this, this isn't right, you know, but as far as like just murdering somebody in Cold Blooded, that's, that's a horrible thing to do. And everyone's a human being, you know, don't, don't kill other human beings. It's pretty simple. And it's, you know, I don't know, it's just, it's very cold blooded and it's very destructive and antisocial and kind of undermines the social fabric. And once you inject a lot of political violence into a society, then it becomes unsafe for everybody to start espousing their beliefs. It kind of wrecks it for everybody because there could be retaliatory violence. It can spiral out of control pretty quickly. So it's a really horrible thing to do.
- [45:39]
B
It's a horrible thing to do. Murder is wrong and I think it makes heroes out of your purported victims. I think it's immoral and stupid.
- [45:50]
C
Yeah, it's it's like a child's reaction, like, I don't like this person, I'm going to kill them. It's like, what is wrong with you? Like, I just don't even, I don't know. That's not a normal way to think. Let's just say it's not, I shouldn't say normal. It's not a, it's not like a healthy, good reaction to just go from, I really don't like this person, can't stand them, I'm going to kill them.
- [46:12]
B
And we'll discuss this a bit more in a second when we discuss the charges that Mr. Robinson faces. But one final point while we're on the topic of the text messages is that when you are these text messages he sent his roommate where he seems to be incriminating himself in this murder are highly significant evidence in this case. And you can't really tell somebody to destroy evidence in a case that's a crime.
- [46:43]
C
I also want to just flag something now. I, I, I often denigrate the intelligence of, of suspects in murder cases and maybe that's kind of mean. It's really stupid to do this though, to put out all of this incriminating information in a text and say, oh, but you know, don't tell them about it. One way or another you have to assume the police are going to get a hold of the records of anyone who he's been in contact with, you know, especially a romantic partner as the roommate was. So there's that. Does he not realize that? But like, listen, there's probably a lot of mistakes I would make if I committed a murder, but I'm not gonna commit a murder because, you know, like what you don't know, you don't know. So it's, it's like he, he thinks, he seems to think of himself as an intelligent person. He's talking about like, oh, I was gonna do this and that and this and I was going to get the rifle and oh, it's, there's no, you know, the serial number, blah, blah, blah. And like I was going to sleep on this until the day I died and it was like, you know, but it's like he's, he's, he kind of seems to have this almost self aggrandized view of like how he's going to handle this stuff while also making a lot of extremely questionable choices.
- [47:52]
B
And I'll push back a little bit. I understand why he might send messages like this to his romantic partner. If you're in a close relationship with someone, it's just habit and routine to tell them about what's going on with your.
- [48:08]
C
Oh, I know. If you killed somebody, you would immediately implicate me by texting me all about it. That's the difference between us. I would shut up.
- [48:16]
B
Yeah, we tell each other everything. You send me texts about what you're doing. I send you texts about what I'm doing when we're apart.
- [48:23]
C
But don't. Not. I'm not to make it all about us, but, like, I don't. Like, if you truly felt like you. I mean, neither. Here's the thing. Neither of us would kill anyone. That's the end of the story. We're just not that stupid. You know, like, it's. That's a terrible thing to do, but it also wrecks your own life. If you want to just look at it from a moral perspective. Yeah, it's a horrifying, horrifying thing to do. I think it's egregious and disgusting. But even if you want to take morality out of it, way to blow up your own life. Way to completely wreck your own life. And, you know, I just think. I think when you're then, you know, drawing other people into the tornado, which is what he's doing to this roommate in this moment. Yes, he's reaching out and saying, you know, I'm. I'm used to telling you everything, but, man, you are dragging this person into a whirlwind, and that's a whirlwind that they didn't seem seemingly asked for at all. So it. I think that's kind of. It's a lack of judgment.
- [49:24]
B
I want to finish up this PCA quote. Police executed a search warrant on Robinson's residence. During that search, police discovered a shell casing with etchings, like the etchings found on the shelves. Shells in the rifle near uvu. Police also found several targets with bolt holes in Robinson's home. End quote. So, again, this. Just finding shells that have similar writing isn't in and of itself big, dramatic evidence, but I think it's cumulative. We often talk about evidence being cumulative, like evidence against Richard Allen, evidence against Temujin Kinsey. This is cumulative.
- [50:02]
C
Like Richard Allen. This guy's his own worst enemy. Because a lot of what he's. What he's put into, either text to his roommate or statements to his parents bolsters a lot of the evidence that they found. Maybe some of that evidence isn't necessarily like immediately a lock, although his. The gun being found is pretty bad. But I Mean him kind of. Kind of. He's almost, like, leading the police along and, like, oh, let me explain this. And, like, I'm going to tell you how it all went down.
- [50:30]
B
I mean, in these texts, I want to read the charges Mr. Robinson is facing. Count one, aggravated murder, pertains to Robertson's shooting and killing of Charlie Kirk in a manner that exposed others in addition to Mr. Kirk, to a great risk of death. Count two, felony discharge of a firearm, pertains to Robertson's shooting towards Mr. Kirk, knowing that doing so would endanger those in the bullet's path. The shot caused serious bodily injury to Mr. Kirk, ultimately resulting in his death. Count three, obstructing justice, pertains to Robinson's removal and hiding of the rifle he used to shoot Mr. Kirk. Count four, obstructing justice, pertains to Robertson's removal and hiding of the clothing he wore when he shot Mr. Kirk. Count five, witness tampering, pertains to Robertson's statement to his roommate, telling his roommate to delete their text exchange that followed the shooting. Count six, witness tampering, pertains to Robertson's statement to his roommate, telling the roommate, if any police ask you questions, ask for a lawyer and stay silent. Count seven, violent offense committed in the presence of a child, pertains to Robinson's shooting of Mr. Kirk in the presence of children under the age of 14 who were visible at the event. End quote. So those are the charges he faces Now, Anya, it's not our role here on the podcast when a case is ongoing to just blindly say, oh, this person is guilty, or this person is not guilty.
- [52:11]
C
No, because you never know what the defense is going to be able to say to counteract whatever the police have put in this affidavit. There can be instances where police just get everything wrong and the defense is able to say, no, no, no, he was here, and, you know, or.
- [52:25]
B
Or.
- [52:26]
C
Or this isn't true, and here's why, or this should be thrown out, you know, so you. You really. It doesn't behoove anyone to immediately say, well, you. And I can say, well, this is a pretty strong probable cause affidavit, but I don't feel comfortable saying, oh, he's definitely guilty, and he throw away the key.
- [52:42]
B
Yeah, we. I'm not going to say he's guilty, but I will say that taking this PCA at face value, this seems to be a very, very strong case against Mr. Robinson, and he's going to have a challenging time, in my view, answering some of the evidence. And information in this pca. Is that fair to say?
- [53:06]
C
That is fair to say, yeah. A lot of this needs to be at least, you know, addressed and explained.
- [53:12]
B
I also wanted to talk about a related subject here. If you follow true crime and I guess if you're listening to this, you obviously do follow true crime, you're aware there is a tendency to want to publicly blame the families of the victims. We see this a lot and I guess you could argue in some cases maybe it might make sense because oftentimes people, people's family members do commit crimes against them. But I think it's important not to publicly blame family members who quite likely are grieving and need privacy and respect. Don't blame them until you have actual evidence of their role in this crime. We saw this in the Guthrie case, the Nancy Guthrie case. We saw people pointing fingers at family members even though there was no evidence of that. And I've been debating how to cover that in this case because we are beginning to see this. In this case we are seeing some people begin to suggest that Mr. Kirk's wife may have been somehow involved. There was a multi part YouTube series that's getting attention that's very, very critical of her generally. And I even consider, well, maybe we should do a spin docs on that. But when I started to watch it, it's just that I didn't see anything in there that even came close to being any evidence that this woman is involved in this crime. I saw a lot of attitudes in there that frankly struck me as a bit sexist that they were criticizing her for like choosing to work. And if, you know, if a woman dies, I don't think too many men would be criticized for choosing to work afterwards. Is that fair to say?
- [55:15]
C
Yeah, I will, I will. I'm not disagreeing with you here. I'm more of just contextualizing this. I think it's important to understand that given Charlie Kirk's role as a conservative activist and his wife Erica continuing to work as a conservative activist, I think it's important to contextualize the backlash against her and the attacks on her as not the tip. While to us as people who cover true crime, it looks very familiar because it is certainly within the same realm of some of the criticisms that people of family members got in, like say the Delphi murders case or the University of Idaho murders case. Like you have people conspiracy theorizing about victims, family members all the time. But because of the public status or the public role of Charlie and Erica Kirk, I think it also should be understood as part of a wider, I don't know if you want to call it a civil war, but within the kind of conservative content creator, slash activist, online activist movement or community, I think that's an element of it too. It's sort of like, I mean, this is a stupid example, but it's like, you know, in, in the Idaho and in, in Delphi, all the families were, you know, pretty much private citizens who just, you know, led, led normal, low key lives and weren't public figures by any stretch of the imagination. With Savannah Guthrie, she obviously is a very public figure, being a well known, well liked broadcaster, national broadcaster, but that's even different because she's not, you know, she's kind of in a, in a, in a mainstream kind of media setting where she's like, many of those broadcasters are filling the role of like your friend who's telling you the news. And it's kind of like an, you know, a nice thing that people like these are folks who are within a specific conservative online community that appears to be fracturing over this, with some people siding with Erica Kirk and others siding with the people who are against her. So I, I think, you know, we're seeing some of the same things, but it's, it's taking place in a much more enhanced environment where there is, there are likely incentives and riffs and bad blood that, you know, have permeated this situation more so than the other ones.
- [57:49]
B
Yeah, all that, all that's true. I don't dispute any of that. And also I would say since Erica Kirk, as you say, is a conservative activist who's going out making speeches and doing public things, it's certainly fine if you have a problem with something she says to argue with her about it or criticize her for it. I just don't want to talk about her being involved in any way with this unless I see evidence that she is, and I haven't seen any.
- [58:21]
C
Oh, you mean not liking someone is an evidence that they're an evil murderer who should be punished?
- [58:26]
B
To the best of my knowledge.
- [58:28]
C
Oh, I'm sorry. I guess, you know. Yeah, I think that's, I, I think, I think all of this is a sideshow in many ways. This is what people have kind of come to associate with the case and what seems to be dominating coverage even in the mainstream news media, there's been a lot of coverage around that rift. I don't find it particularly interesting. It just sort of seems like, you know, the kind of YouTube drama we've seen, but with a bigger Audience, I guess, you know, I mean, it's like we see this stuff happen all the time. You have communities form around like a conspiracy, conspiracy theory in Delphi, say. And then, you know, one side doesn't invite the other to their birthday party and then suddenly it's a feud and it's a war and everyone's fighting. And you know, with this, it's just with more tragic and high profile circumstances. But you have this kind of thing going on and it's mostly, as you said, it seems like mostly just kind of vague allusions to perceived wrongdoings and slights that kind of don't really matter as far as the.
- [59:35]
B
And in fairness, I'm not even sure if people are directly saying that Eric or Kirk may have something to do
- [59:42]
C
with it, but they're just saying, I don't like the cut of her jib. Is that what they're saying?
- [59:45]
B
They're just asking lots of questions and making.
- [59:47]
C
Oh, they're asking questions. Ah, yes.
- [59:49]
B
So I.
- [59:50]
C
No conspiracy theorist has ever just asked questions.
- [59:53]
B
So I'm not sure if anybody has directly made that accusation.
- [59:57]
C
But I guess people don't want to get sued.
- [59:59]
B
But that seems to be the whiff. It seems to be the unspoken implication. And I've seen no evidence of that. And I don't care if a person chooses to work or not work after the death of their spouse. That is a decision for them and their family. After looking at their economic circumstances and other circumstances, it's really none of our business.
- [60:21]
C
I, I mean, yeah, I don't care. I mean, like that it also has nothing to do with the murder. You know, if someone pulls out, oh my gosh, somebody upped the, the insurance policy on their spouse and then they were mysteriously killed. Yeah, that's stuff we can talk about. But if it's just like, I don't, I don't like your decisions. Okay.
- [60:38]
B
Yes.
- [60:39]
C
Doesn't really mean anything. And frankly, like, you know, is that, I don't know, like, are we talking about a murder or are we talking about YouTube drama? You know, and I think that's. I think some people prefer the YouTube drama.
- [60:51]
B
I think this is a good place to stop. I actually had some more stuff in my notes. Maybe we'll do another episode or two this week, but I think this is a good place to stop for now. This is the basic facts of the case. And this is basically why the police made the. Why the police suspected him, why the prosecutor filed the charges against him, I guess, upcoming.
- [61:14]
C
I'd love to know more about what the defense is and how. What strategies are they employing to say, hey, our client should not be convicted. So that'll be interesting.
- [61:24]
B
Yeah.
- [61:25]
C
Great research, Kevin. Thank you.
- [61:27]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [61:48]
C
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com/murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [62:11]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with
- [62:23]
C
other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.