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- [00:00]
A
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B
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A
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D
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- [02:48]
A
I'm Anya and today we're going to be hearing from the son of a murder victim who recently wrote a book on his father's high profile California homicide case, which still remains unsolved. Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder in 2013, Joseph Gatto was 78 years old. He had an active life in the Silver Lake community of Los Angeles in California. He was strong and healthy, according to his son Mike. He could still deadlift heavy items. He was a down to earth practical man, but he was also an artist who crafted jewelry and was well known amongst artists and those who work with them in Los Angeles. He was an educator and co founded the Los Angeles County High School for Arts, a school with many successful alumni. Hailing from a working class Italian American family, Joseph made a good life for himself and his children. He had two daughters and a son, Mike. But the life he made for himself came to a sudden, violent end.
- [03:43]
B
On November 13, 2013, Joseph Gada was discovered in his home dead from a single gunshot wound to his abdomen. He may have been murdered the day before, nobody knows for certain.
- [03:56]
A
The news sent his son Mike reeling. Mike served for years in the California State Assembly. For a time, he even occupied the powerful position as the Chairman of the Appropriations Committee. Now, for many years since 2013, he's been living two lives. He's a dedicated family man with an.
- [04:14]
B
Impressive career, but he's also the grieving son striving to find answers, talking to detectives and doing everything he can to discover the truth of what happened to his father. Over a decade later, the answers he seeks remain elusive. Joseph's murder is still unsolved.
- [04:36]
A
Now Mike's written a book about his experience, noir by How My Father's Unsolved Murder Took Me to Dark Places. The book is excellent. It's investigative in nature, laying out even ugly impersonal facts, but it's also an emotional tribute to the man Joseph was. It's an absolute must read for anyone in true crime. Whether you're a crime victim's relative or close to a crime victim's family, or you're just a casual listener. This is the kind of book that gives all of us a roadmap for what victims families go through and how we can show up for them. The work truly captures the surviving relative's perspective. The chaos, confusion and agony of the early days immediately following a sudden violent loss. The feelings of frustration toward police detectives who don't always have the bedside manner necessary to do this job. The stupid conspiracy theories that cranks and self serving people cook up and how those can also be devastating and time wasting for victims families.
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B
In this episode, Mike will share all of that and more about his father's mysterious case.
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A
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
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B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [05:56]
A
And this is the murder of Joseph Gatto, an interview with his son, Mike Gatto.
- [06:08]
B
It.
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A
I just want to start out today by thanking you so much for coming on the Murder Sheet. We really, really appreciate it.
- [06:51]
C
Well, thank you so much for having me.
- [06:54]
A
Can you start off by just telling us a bit about yourself and just sort of your professional background so people get a sense of.
- [07:00]
C
Sure. So my name is Mike Gatto and I served four terms in the California State legislature in a district that was centered in Hollywood. So for people who are not from California, it's nice and easy to remember that I represented Hollywood in the legislature.
- [07:17]
A
Absolutely. And you had a pretty important position within that legislature.
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C
When I was there, I think in my second term, I got appointed chair of the Appropriations Committee, which determines all the spending in the state. It was wonderful to have such a deep say on most issues for a state as big as California.
- [07:36]
A
We're here to talk about the book you just wrote, Noir by Necessity. And I was wondering, before we sort of delve into that, can you just tell me a bit about your dad, Joseph, and what he was like as a person?
- [07:50]
C
Yeah, so my father was a renaissance man. You know, you might say a throwback. He was somebody that you just, I feel like you don't really meet too much anymore. He was somebody who, you know, he had served in the army and he was every bit a guy's guy and a man's man, but at the same time he like, knew art and he could like, paint and like sculpt. He was somebody who could take apart an engine and put it back together. And we worked on cars a lot together when I was an adolescent. But he was also somebody who was like, very into planting fruit trees and gardening and things like that. So he, he had just such A wide range of interests. But I guess what he's best known as is he was a schoolteacher. He founded a arts high school in Los Angeles. He taught many, many famous people, famous singers, famous actors, famous visual artists. His career as a teacher spanned 47 years, and he did not miss a single day of work in 47 years. So that, I think, is the best insight into what my dad was like.
- [08:58]
A
He sounds awesome. Just reading the book, it was nice to get to know him. And I thought you did a great job capturing that.
- [09:04]
C
Thank you.
- [09:05]
A
Can you tell us about what happened to him and sort of just take us through just sort of the initial hearing about that tragedy?
- [09:14]
C
Yeah. So I think it's no mystery. And the reason why we're here is because. And the reason why I write the book is because my father was murdered on November 12, 2013. So 11, 12, 13. We found out about it, or at least I found out about it on. And the next day, my wife and I were getting ready to put our two daughters to bed in our house in the Capitol, and I got a call from my younger sister. Now, she didn't usually call me at like 7:45 on a weeknight, so I picked up the phone. Usually I screen my calls, but I picked up the phone and she was close to hysterical. I mean, she was just really freaking out. And the basic gist that I got from what she was saying is that she went over to my dad's house, she went inside and she found him dead. And my first reaction was like, come on. Like, you know. No, I mean, people have to understand, you know, my father was 78 when he was murdered, but he was in the peak of health. He was somebody who sprinted upstairs. He would deadlift trees and refrigerators. I mean, he was just in great health. And, you know, people cousins of his had lived to well past 100. So, you know, we was like, you know, he had no health problems. So I was like, come on, get out. He's not dead. And she's like, michael, he's cold. Like, I just remember her saying that, like, I touched him and he's cold. And I was so shocked. And I said, well, call an ambulance, you know, and she called an ambulance. And I want to say the police as well. And I don't remember. That night is such a blur. But, you know, an hour later, hour and a half later, somebody got on the phone with me and said, you know, your dad is dead and the cause of death is likely a gunshot wound.
- [10:59]
A
What was hearing that like? But not only Is he gone? But he's been murdered.
- [11:05]
C
It was surreal. I mean, I really lose words to articulate how surreal it was. I can tell people that for about a month after my dad was killed, I kept a newspaper on my nightstand because I would wake up in the middle of the night and I would think it was a dream. I would think it was a bad dream. I kept a copy of the LA Times on my nightstand because I had to remind myself that it was not a bad dream. I can't tell you one of the reasons I wrote the book, right, was to give people a sense of what the families of murder victims go through. And I can't tell you how weird it is. You know, obviously, you never think something like this would happen to you. And it's also this sense that, like. And I talk about this a little bit in the introduction, right? Like, we all know that our loved ones are unfortunately going to die at some point. Death is a part of life, you know, but usually, you know, if. Let's say, someone, you know, gets diagnosed with cancer, you know, they're told they have two years to live, and you get a chance to make peace with them and talk, you know, talk everything through. And when. When a murder happens or a sudden death, like, it's like they're. Like they're just gone. And I know that sounds. That sounds woefully inarticulate, but. But it was just surreal, right? I mean, like the day before, I had called my dad and asked him, like, for a recommendation for a plumber. You know, like banal, mundane things. And then all of a sudden, he was gone. And that's what is so weird about a murder.
- [12:48]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. And I thought the book really does articulate. Like, I think. I mean, I would encourage everyone listening to this to read it. I think it's a necessary read. I think it's. It's. It's something that is going to. You capture the confusion and the way it's structured. It's very easy to follow, but it's also following along with you as all of this is happening and. And the chaos that this throws your life into, I think is something a lot of murder victims, families have spoken to us about, and I think the book captures that very well.
- [13:19]
C
Thank you.
- [13:21]
A
I do want to ask you one thing that really I found so appalling reading this. I do want to get into this a little bit, was the lack of care that certain investigators had in talking to you in the immediate aftermath. And just some of that unprofessionalism can you. Can you tell us a bit about that? And then I'm going to ask you a follow up of, like, how can investigators be more sensitive in situations like that?
- [13:48]
C
Yeah, thank you so much for asking about that. So I always preface this by saying that, you know, the Los Angeles Police Department is a huge organization. And like any big organization, you've got great people, you've got medium people, and so, so people. A lot of the people I've dealt with have been terrific. The current team that's on my dad's case, they're really, really terrific. They're caring people. And you can feel it and sense it. The people who did the crime scene were some of the hardest working people I know, and I really, really respect them. However, there were some folks assigned to my dad's case during the bulk of the years that were a bit of a challenge to deal with, and I'm really not sure why. I do know that some of them have had very spectacular separations with the lapd. There's been some lawsuits and some firings and some things like that. So I know it's not just me who feels this way, but some of these guys did some things that were a bit questionable. One example. I'll give and I'll give. I'll give two. I had to drive down from the state capitol to Los Angeles. We got the news after it was too late to fly, and I had two young daughters at the time. And so we just decided to pile in the minivan and drive down. And then I think on top of that, I don't think I had slept for a really long time. And, you know, they asked me to come tour the crime scene and help him out, which I did. And then, like, they took me aside that night and I'm, you know, I'm grieving my dad, still having a hard time processing things. Haven't slept for a long time. And I just remember them lecturing me on, like, some fine political points. And it was just like, you know, I don't think this is the time to do that. But all right, that's fine. That's cool. I'm used to it. You know, people. People used to weigh in on political stuff with me at the grocery store. No big deal. But then, like, you know, a couple weeks later, there was an even more, I guess, surreal experience that just sort of was indicative of just how, I guess one of the guys on my dad's case didn't really have a filter. So my father's first cousin, she's still alive. She's 96 years old. She's a very kindly little old lady. She has a somewhat unique Italian last name. You know, the detectives had pulled my dad's call records and they saw that he talked with this lady once a week. And so I got a call from this detective one day. He's like, hey, Mike, give me a call. I need to talk to you. I'm excited. I'm like, well, there must be a break in the case. This is great. Give him a call back. And he's like, hey, I see your dad called this lady Mrs. So, and so I go, yeah. And he goes, are you guys by any chance related to. And he gave the name of another one of my cousins, one of my dad's second cousins once removed.
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B
Right.
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C
This is how random it was. And I'm like, yeah, he's a cousin. And he's like, I went to high school with him and he's a, you know, expletive, expletive, expletive. And it was like, by the way, this guy was in his 50s, right? And so he's talking about. And he's talking. He talked about something that my cousin did when they were both 15. And it was just like, this is what you called me. Like, like, I mean, I, I get that you want to share that there is this random connection, but at the same time it was just so bizarre. And he, he like, was angry at me, like, that I was related to this guy, which, which I can't really control, of course. And it was just so bizarre and it just showed like a lack of bedside manner.
- [17:06]
A
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- [17:49]
A
This season only at K. Yeah, it was. And I'm not like, I want people to read this, but there's a lot more like, it's it. And that was what it wasn't, like an attempt at connection of like, oh, we know the same people. It was like, you know, let me, you know, complain to this guy about his cousin. Yeah, I was shocked. But I mean, unfortunately, I don't think it's something. I think people do get investigators sometimes who are just not going to be a good fit as far as bedside manner or like doing what they need to do. And you know, I guess like, you've, you've been interacting with people who are a lot better at it and, and that you've, you praised a lot in the book. And are there insights that you can give law enforcement officials about, like, how to ensure that people are treating victims, families with the respect and, and sympathy and compassion that they need in times?
- [18:44]
C
Great question. I mean, I think some of it stems from, you know, staffing the right people to the job. I think some of it, you know, someone put it best, they said, you know, a detective is sort of like a surgeon, you know, for that surgeon who's working on somebody, you know, doing heart surgery for that family, it's their everything. It's like, this is my loved one who this day is the most important day of their life. And this is everything. But for the surgeon, it's like, well, it's another day at the office and, you know, he wants to be on the golf course by 4:00pm you know, and, and it's stressful and he cares about that person, but for him, it's just work.
- [19:19]
A
Right.
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C
So just remembering that when you're dealing with things that are so high stakes, that the families involved, they just want a little bit of respect, a little bit of sympathy, some empathy, and they want to feel like this is the most important thing in the world. Even if, frankly, it's not the most important thing in the world to those detectives, it is for that family.
- [19:44]
A
As you said aptly, we can't expect detectives to treat everything like it's the most important. That seems like a good way to burn out. But having some respect and, and not saying things that are unkind or unhelpful in the moment seems like the bare minimum.
- [19:59]
C
Yeah, I agree. Exactly.
- [20:01]
A
Another thing that I caught my eye. Cause I, I'm a journalist and, and you know, you immediately, because of your position in politics at the time, you, you're immediately thrust into a bit of a media firestorm. Right? So the news picks this up and they're running with it. You describe dealing with like a news station that when your wife called to try to get them to move the van out from outside your house, tries to interview her, you know, and like there's a lack of compassion there. And of course, you also talk about some of the reporters who did care and tried to help. So in terms of the media, how can the media do better as far as trying to inform the public but also being respectful towards victims families?
- [20:41]
C
Great question. I mean, the media, by and large, was really, I think, beneficial for my dad's case and for most murder cases. I mean, just bringing attention to the fact that there are so many unsolved murders and making sure that those stories stay alive has such a value, you know, and that's why I appreciate this podcast so much too, you know, I mean, like, look, I mean, we all know that sometimes the media gets a little bit intrusive and they, you know, like that. That one that chose to try to interview my wife, when she said, hey, please move the van. I mean, but. But by and large, I mean, they were, they were good and I think they really just wanted to get the story out there. And you know, we all, we all sort of fantasize that whatever story happens will be the one that breaks the case. And, and I think a lot of the media outlets really wanted that to be the case. And unfortunately, it just hasn't happened yet. My dad's. In my dad's instance.
- [21:39]
A
Yes. I want to ask you, if you don't mind, if we can go into some of the details and some of the, I guess, for lack of a better term, clues that exist in your dad's case at this point.
- [21:51]
C
Sure. So I can tell you I'll try to condense a whole lot of information in a very short period of time. There were initially a few false leads. One neighbor knew my dad was going to speak at an antiquarian society about a rare type of painting, and so she spread the notion that this might have been connected to somebody wanting to steal those paintings. But that was not the case. I also initially thought, gee, this might have something to do with my politics. The police assured me that that's not the case, that I was public enough that they would have targeted me if that was the case. The dominant theory that, that really captured the media's attention then for, I want to say, the next, like five years, was this theory of the random car burglar. It has never sat well with me, and I'll sort of walk people through it. There was a guy breaking into fairly close to my dad's house. By the way, if you. If you think about Los Angeles, there's probably someone breaking a new car at any given time, close to just about anything, right? If you examine a point in time. But anyway, he was confronted, he ran away. The people that confronted him, there was a, a child in the car who thought he saw a gun. Nobody's really sure. The police's theory is, and this is where it gets surreal, is that he headed towards my dad's house and that he heard a tour helicopter flying overhead that was flying tourists to go view the Hollywood sign. He thought it was a police helicopter and said, I have to get inside. At that exact moment, my dad had bought a printer and he realized he couldn't get it out of the side door of his car. So he opened up the back hatchback. And that required opening up the garage door. And, and at the exact moment that this guy was saying, gee, I gotta get inside, he happened to be running past my dad's house, happened to see the garage door going like this, you know, closing, and happened to duck inside without being seen. Now, of course, this is because the police are trying to explain why there was no forced entry. No forced entry in my dad's house. Key point. But for this theory to work, you know, my dad went upstairs and tried to set up the printer. We know that, I mean, the printer was on the floor and he had messed with it and messed with the ink cartridges and messed with the cords and, and you know, typical old man, like having a hard time connecting a printer right to his computer. But for this theory to work, this young man would have had to sit in my dad's garage for about an hour and not go downstairs. My dad lived in a three story house. Not go downstairs and steal that. Anything on the first floor, not go on the second floor and steal anything. Not steal anything in the garage. Not just press the button and walk out. But would have had to sit there in an hour in a house with three cars there. My dad had three cars. And then at some point just casually decide to walk upstairs and shoot my dad. Oh, and by the way, then watch him bleed to death. You know, not be paranoid. You're paranoid about a helicopter, but not be paranoid after firing a gun and not think that the neighbors heard it and then, you know, semi ransack my dad's bedroom and then take off. It has never sat well with me. Oh, and by the way, and then never reoffend in the 12 years since and not get caught for anything else. So that theory has always been very, very hard for me to swallow.
- [25:01]
A
I thought it was very impactful in the book where you got into the. The problem with this theory is that it requires the Killer to be very brazen. Yes. Very stupid and very smart.
- [25:17]
C
Yes, exactly, exactly. And you look at the traits too. He would have had to run away from a lady coming home and, you know, a neighbor and not do anything to them, but then shoot my dad. He would have had to be paranoid about a helicopter, but not about a gunshot. It just, there's so many parts of it that just are just impossible for me to reconcile.
- [25:41]
A
And he had to, you know, instead of just hiding out in the garage and then leaving the garage, at some point he has to go. And I thought you've described your dad's house very well. Where this room that he was murdered in is, is like kind of the inner sanctum of the. There's one door you have to really go through a lot to get up there.
- [25:59]
C
Precisely, precisely.
- [26:01]
A
Yeah. It's bizarre. And you know, and you mentioned they kind of run with this specific lead for a long time and put a lot into that. But one thing I noted, and I think we've heard this from other murder victims families. Can you talk about why DNA can actually become a bit of a hindrance in terms of solving some cases, even though that might sound really backwards to a lot of people?
- [26:25]
C
Great question. So police and crime observers call this CSI effect. And it is the notion that there will be some technological evidence. DNA is the obvious one, but it could be, oh, you know, the killer's phone connected to the WI fi and we got the, you know, like, I mean, any type of whiz bang, you know, scientific evidence, and it's going to tie the case up in a nice bow in an hour episode. Right. CSI effect and that type of thing. I did a lot of research on this and I learned that the murder clearance rate, meaning the number of cases that are solved, has gone down in the era of DNA. And that is because police tend to just say, well, we're going to wait for there to be a hit. They don't do the shoe leather, the put in the shoe leather. They don't do the interviews of the neighbors. I mean, I was shocked, like how many of my dad's friends they did not talk to, how many of my dad's neighbors they did not talk to. It's like everybody has some insight and I mean, like, how were, how were crimes solved before DNA? Well, they were, they were solved by talking to people and seeing if something just didn't fit or if somebody had a little bit of this or somebody had a hunch or whatever. And yeah, so I actually think the era of DNA has And I think the statistics back me up. Has not been great for solving murders.
- [27:45]
A
Right. It's great for the easy murders where there's a lot of DNA that's obviously belonging to an offender. It's not good for everything else. And your insight about the LAPD in general going into. Can you talk about why a bigger police department might be more susceptible to some of those issues versus a smaller police department?
- [28:09]
C
Yeah, so I follow crime. I feel like once a year, maybe twice a year, I'll see a story and the story will always be like, oh, there's a small police department in West Virginia and there's an old detective who was just about to retire, but he was always really bummed that there was a case that hadn't been solved. And so he called in, like, this genealogy expert and this DNA expert and he reran the evidence and he did all this stuff. And then they solved the crime and they finally solved this cold case. And it's, there's, there's these stories. I feel like they run, you know, two, three times a year. That's not the lapd, right? I mean, like, I'm sure there are detectives who feel that way, but, you know, it's not like they have an attitude that is very different when it comes to bringing in outside entities. As you can imagine, my dad's case has been, you know, it's sort of passed into one of those LA murders that really captured a lot of the public tension. It was on Dateline. It was on Fox. You know, you look at Los Angeles, there's always this obsession with, with high profile murders, whether it's O.J. or the black Dahlia or the Night Stalker or whatever. And so my dad's case attracted a lot of attention. And I got emails from, you know, DNA experts and people who have different collection techniques and people who are experts in genealogy. And I would always pass them on to the lapd. And the LAPD was always like, no, we don't work with outsiders. And I'm like, well, what if this outsider's got a new technology? No, we don't work with outsiders. Well, what if they've got some insight? No, sorry, we don't work with outsiders. And it's just like, all right. I mean, you know, it's just kind of weird to me because I guess the smaller departments welcome the help and the bigger departments tend to be more territorial and feel like they've got it all done in the house.
- [29:46]
A
It's refreshing to hear someone say that because normally I feel like the narrative is like, oh, these small local bumpkins don't know what they're doing and they're going to botch the case. And, you know, you got to bring in the big dogs and, and what you're saying, and that mean. I'm certain that can be true sometimes, but I mean, certainly this is also true where it's, it's more impersonal and therefore maybe gets less effort, I guess, for sure. I mean, by writing this book, you're very critical. You don't hold back. I mean, I felt like the criticism was very fair and it was very well articulated. But is, is, are you concerned about any blowback from any of this, or do you feel like you have strong relationships with the current investigators?
- [30:27]
C
Well, I wrestled with that a lot when I was writing the book, but I also thought the story needs to be told. You know, I had a metric when I was in office, which is like, you know, if I went to renew my license at the DMV and I was setting the annual funding for the dmv, right? And like, if they knew who I was and I got treated like garbage, I would always have this, this thought, like, my gosh, how does the public get treated? And that, that thought occurred to me many, many times in my dad's case. And it's like, wow. So I felt like the story had to be told and it doesn't matter what the blowback is to me. And I already had a lot of blowback during the case. You know, I explained in the book that by chance, the mayor of Los Angeles, for much of the period when I was in office, he had sort of come up through the political ranks very close to me in proximity, meaning he was on the LA City Council. His district overlapped with mine. He lived maybe 10 minutes away from me. So I would see him at all of the same events, right? Like, we'd go to like, a groundbreaking or a Riverwalk or something, and we'd both give a speech and he would always ask me, like, how's your dad's case going? And I would, I wouldn't be negative or positive, but I also wouldn't lie. I wasn't going to say to him, well, it's all solved and I think we're going to take care of it. Like, I just say, well, it hasn't been solved and there's some good things and some bad things and. And I knew I would almost dread those conversations because, you know, he was the detective's boss's boss's boss's boss. And I know he would talk with the police chief of police, who would talk to the chief of detectives, who would talk to the chief of the division, who would say to those guys, hey, you know, the mayor, you know, blah, blah, blah. But at the same time, like, I couldn't avoid the mayor. She was a friend of mine, and I couldn't lie to him. Right. And so I felt like there was already blowback and resentment. And so at this point, you know, it's like, I just gotta be truthful.
- [32:18]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. And I think this truth is gonna help other people who are in a similar situation. And I like what you said. It's like you are. You are a man in a powerful position. And. And, you know, if. If you. If things are going, it's not so much that it's not getting solved, but some of the way that you and your family were treated, if that's happening to other people, then, you know, that's a crisis.
- [32:40]
C
Yeah, yeah, I agree.
- [32:41]
A
You know, you mentioned being in the political realm. Obviously, like, did this and you get into this in the book, but can you speak a bit about how this experience with losing your father in this violent manner influenced you as a politician in terms of issues you supported? And I thought some of your thoughts on gun control were super interesting and a bit unexpected. So thank bit about that.
- [33:03]
C
Well, so the. The immediate aftermath of my dad's killing was that a lot of groups contacted me to try to promote a cause. And I really wrestle with that because I know there are people out there who have turned a tragedy into a whole lot of good. They have started charities and they have brought attention to the issue. But at the same time, I also know that there's a very, very fine line between working on an issue and capitalizing on a tragedy for your own personal benefit. And as much as we know people who have done a whole lot of good, we also know a lot of people who have taken some tragedy that they're connected to and they've used it to create these multimillion dollar empires. I always have found that a little bit distasteful. Like, I never really wanted to be that guy. And so I purposefully avoided the people who wanted me to become sort of a gun control celebrity. That was one thing. And, I mean, I turned down offers to, like, go speak with the president, you about this, because I just didn't think that it was. I never wanted to be seen to be politicizing my dad's death. The second thing is, there's a principle in the Capitol, and they say this in capitals all around the country, which is anecdotes make bad law. And what they mean is that one personal experience is not something that you should change the laws of the whole state or nation for. And so I tried to keep that in mind. But at the same time, it's impossible not to delve into this crazy criminal justice system and not think that there's opportunities for reform. One of the things that I was particularly keen on was DNA collection laws. Just making sure that what we have stays on the books. You know, it looks out for privacy and everything, but at the same time is used to solve crimes. And then, yeah, on gun control, you know, I mean, gosh, I, I know I devoted two chapters to it, but very complicated issue. But I tried to at least sort through the noise that you get from both sides because a lot of it is just hype.
- [34:57]
A
Can you articulate just maybe in a nutshell your view on the issue?
- [35:01]
C
Well, yeah, I mean, like, look, most proponents of gun control focus on super high profile cases and super high profile guns. Most proponents are trying to ban what they call assault weapons. A ban on assault weapons would not bring back my dad. It would not do anything. On most murders in the United States. Most murders in the United States are caused by handguns. Handguns are small, they're easily smugglable. You know, I think if you banned them tomorrow, there's already enough of them in circulation that they would be still used to commit crimes. I think the issue is way more complicated. I think it touches on mental illness, it touches on mental health, it touches on economic opportunity. I mean, it's such a complicated issue why people commit crimes like this that I just try to avoid the, like, rah, rah. Here's my simple position, because it's not a simple. It's not a simple issue. And I think a lot of those people who try to make it as a simple issue, I think they're lying to the public.
- [36:03]
A
One element of this story that made me so angry reading about it, just that you had to go through this, was hearing from all of these people who have these stupid theories who are taking up your time and sort of promising you some sort of answers. And you almost feel like you have to talk to them because that's something that so many murder victims, families have to deal with. Can you talk about that and how harmful those people are to a family healing?
- [36:28]
C
Yeah, great question. So just to give the listeners a sense of like some of the things that happened is. And I think part of it was obviously the high Profile nature of my job at the time. But some of it was just people who just share in a very weird way. There was one lady who called me one day and said, the guy, the car burglar sketch. There's a guy who looks just like the car burglar sketch, and he's right outside my house right now. And so, you know, I called the police and we sent like a, you know, the, the four alarm response, you know, sirens on, guns out. And to make a very long story short, we learned once the police got there that there was just a homeless guy who hung out in front of her house. And she wanted to use me to get the police's attention to it, to get the guy away from her house. And that was tough because, you know, obviously I had gotten my hopes up and I had thought that that might be a break in my dad's case. But perhaps one of the weirdest examples of this was there was a soap soap opera actress who was pretty famous, who my dad had taught. She had gone to my dad's school, as I mentioned, he had taught a lot of famous people. And she called me or she contacted me and said, hey, I have some information that I think is relevant to your dad's case and I think it will help you solve your dad's case. And I think I know who did it. And I was like, well, tell me. And she's like, look, it's, it's super, super confidential. I feel more comfortable if we went to lunch. And I was like, okay, like, that's, I suppose that's, that's consistent with somebody who really believes that they have some information. And. But the problem is between our schedules, I think the lunch was scheduled for like two weeks from that time. Now, of course, during those two weeks, I'm thinking, my gosh, this woman's got evidence that is going to break my dad's case open. And I can't sleep. I can't think of anything else. I'm really excited. The day gets there and we go to lunch, and at lunch she gets into this theory that, let's just say it involved Hillary Clinton and, you know, some billionaires and all this stuff. And it was just, it was so out there. But it was impossible to know before hearing her that it was that out there. Everything leading up to it was like, well, she knew my dad, she lived close to my dad. Like everything was sane enough that it made sense to go to this lunch and to get my hopes up. But then at the lunch, it came out that the theory was pretty wild. And just things like that really are tough because they almost force you to go through the hope and pain again and again and again.
- [39:06]
A
I really want to, but I'm not, I'm not going to ask you to name her, but yeah, I wish, I really wish people would understand that that sort of thing is cruel. And I mean, unfortunately, the people who understand that are probably not going to be the people who do it, but it's, it's like a sickness to try to make someone else's tragedy all about you and your specific issues.
- [39:26]
C
For sure, for sure.
- [39:29]
A
You know, I did want to ask you in terms of, you know, like where things are now as far as a theory that you think is perhaps more likely about what may have happened to your dad or at least elements of this story that are more likely versus what this initial sort of car thief thing was in terms of when you look at the case now, having done all this research and been through this, where do you stand about what may have happened here?
- [39:54]
C
Great question. So I like to reduce it to two points and then four points on my dad's case. So it's either something really, really, really simple and really, really bad luck. Right? Like, yeah, it was the car burglar and he was high on drugs and nothing makes sense because he was high on drugs and he hasn't reoffended because, you know, he went to rehab in another state or something or he's dead and like it's really, really simple or it's something vastly more complicated. Right. And something that was planned and thought through and possibly a murder for hire and something that is so crazy and so difficult to think about. But then within those four things and getting more or within my dad's case and getting more specific, there are four things that I think can really sum it up. It was either that my dad was killed by a stranger who got into his house when my dad was already home, or my dad came home and found a stranger in his house already, or my dad was killed by someone he knew when he was already home, or my dad came home and found somebody he knew already in the house. I favor the theory that number three, which is my dad was killed by somebody that he knew and probably somebody that he let into the house himself. It's a very, very close call. Right. And I feel like I'm still learning facts about the case. And I talk about how at the 10 year anniversary I learned a few more things from the detectives because, you know, you don't always know the questions to ask But. But, I mean, I. Detectives have asked, you know, is it possible that this was, like, an old guy, like, just somebody that you're not necessarily thinking about, where it was, like, a friend of your dad who might have been suffering from dementia, didn't have a record because he was kind of like a nice old man and nobody that they thought. But then he had some kind of dispute, maybe imaginary, imaginable dispute with your dad and came over and there was some kind of confrontation, you know? Yeah. That would explain a lot of things. That would explain why there's no forced entry. That would explain why the ammunition was older ammunition. It would explain why, you know, it was in my dad's bedroom. But there's still so many things that are wrong with that. For one thing is my dad never let anybody into his bedroom except for, like, really, really close family. Number two, you still have this issue of the killer either ransacked, partially ransacked my dad's room before he killed my dad, or he did it after he killed my dad. And if it's somebody he knew, got into a little bit of an argument, and then killed my dad and ransacked the room, you still have these really weird quirks in my dad's case. Number one, the person shot my dad through the abdomen. The bullet hit an artery in his leg, and he bled out. Right. And probably took some time to bleed out. The killer that did not fire a second shot. So we've all seen those movies, right, where, like, somebody shoots somebody and they think they're dead, and then the person, like, wakes up and, like, calls 911 or wakes up and fights back. It's just really weird. Like, did the killer take my dad's pulse? Did the killer sat there and watch him die? Like, that part is always this. Like, it would take, like, a psychopath to do that, right? And so that part is always just so strange to me. And then, like, to sit there with a corpse in a room and, like, ransack a room for an hour. Really weird behavior, right? Like, really bizarre behavior. That part is just so strange. But then again, if that's why nothing really fits. Because then if you reject that, if you say, okay, so my. It couldn't have been that some old guy that my dad let in the house. And then, you know, the. Then you're right back to, my dad must have come home and found somebody there. But then, you know, my dad wasn't a vigilante. He wouldn't, like, if he walked into his bedroom and found it ransacked, he'd probably just pick up his cell phone, which was in his pocket, and dial 91 1.
- [43:43]
A
Right.
- [43:44]
C
And that didn't happen. So it's just very hard. It is very hard to have answers that make sense.
- [43:50]
A
Yeah. I mean, with the ransacking, I mean, I guess there's always the possibility of staging, but at the same time, there were things that were taken.
- [43:59]
C
Yeah, a few.
- [44:00]
B
Yeah.
- [44:02]
A
It's odd. But I do want to ask you, there's fingerprints and there's some DNA, but is it fair to say that it's not even necessarily clear if that's belonging to the killer?
- [44:15]
C
I mean, yeah, there are unknown prints in my dad's bedroom. I always tell people, unknown prince means that it's not his. It's not like his close family, you know, but it could be a housekeeper that he had years ago. It could be somebody where, you know, he bought an item at a garage sale and they touched it. It could be a guest that came over. It could be anything. Right. I do believe that there were some prints on some of the things that they believe the killer touched. But at the same time, they can't be 100% sure. The DNA is not been too useful. The way it's been explained to me is that, you know, like, you'll see those stories in the news how, like they found a Neanderthal from a hundred thousand years ago and they drilled into his tooth and they finally were able to extract some DNA, but it was so fragmentary that, like, it's not his entire genome. It's just like pieces of it. That's the DNA they have. It's almost. It's so fragmentary that it's almost like it was ancient DNA. And because of that, and I think they have two different people's DNA, something like that, but we are not even sure that it was necessarily a killer's DNA. Now, I've asked the police that and they have said, well, we think so, and we think it was on some of the tools that the killer touch and blah, blah, blah and everything like that. But, you know, it's something also, we can't be sure the fact that 12 years have passed and we don't have any fingerprint hits, any palm print hits, any DNA hits. I mean, again, that's another thing that, to me, that to me is informative. Right? Because if this was a hired killer who, you know, fled back to, you know, some country in, you know, Uzbekistan. Right. You know, I mean, yeah, that's, that's, that's probably why after all these Years have passed, you wouldn't have any matches.
- [45:59]
B
Right.
- [46:00]
C
But who knows? I mean, it's just yet another mystery in my dad's case.
- [46:05]
A
What do you think needs to happen in order for your dad's case to get solved?
- [46:10]
C
Gosh, great question. I think that if there are some advances in technology, perhaps it would enable the police to retest certain items that were at the scene. I also think that. I don't know. I mean, I like to think that somebody knows something and has not stepped forward. But the challenge with that is that, you know, as so many years pass, right, it's like, how. How would you even be sure that a memory was accurate if somebody had something? Now, obviously, like, look, if this was the car burglar and he was a local kid, as the police have speculated, and there's somebody in my dad's neighborhood who's like, well, yeah, you know, come think of it, I had a neighbor, and he was roughly 23 years old, and he came home that night in a pool of sweat, and he made all this noise. And then he moved. The next week, he, like, moved to Georgia and. Okay, well, like, yeah, that would be relevant, right? And, like, if that person would step forward, that could possibly break the case. But, you know, I also realize that after all these years, like I said, you know, memories fade and that type of thing. So I. I don't know. I don't know what it would take to solve my dad's case. I'm hoping it will be a mixture of skill and a mixture of luck.
- [47:22]
A
Absolutely. Well, I. I really hope you get answers, Mike and I. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention to the listeners as far as the story or about your dad that you think it would be good for them to know?
- [47:34]
C
Just that we are so appreciative for people who, like you who have podcasts like this, and also for people who listen to them, because you are keeping the stories alive. These are all human beings. They meant a lot to a lot of people. And, you know, by keeping the stories alive, we as a society are telling the police and governments and the powers that be that we need to prioritize these unsolved murders. And so I'm appreciative to each and every one of you.
- [48:00]
A
Well, thank you so much, Mike. We're appreciative to you for the work you're doing to raise awareness about this. And I think this is gonna. I think this book will bring a lot of comfort to people who care about true crime and people who have lost people in violent means because I think it you tell a story that's specific to you, but it's, it's universal to a lot of people who've experienced this loss.
- [48:18]
C
Thank you so much. Have a great rest of your day.
- [48:20]
A
You too. Take care.
- [48:21]
C
Take care. Bye bye.
- [48:25]
A
We want to thank Michael for sharing his father's story with us. Check out his book Noir By Necessity. I would really like people to read this because I think it is just such an important work as far as understanding what victims families go through. We will include a link to the book in our show notes.
- [48:41]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [49:01]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [49:25]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [49:36]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.
- [50:06]
B
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C
Big news.
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D
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