Anya Cain (1:56)

A headless body wearing only a yellow V neck sweater and nothing else. Her hands were bound behind her back with a piece of what may have been jump rope. Investigators initially believed she might have been an adult sex worker, but they found out she was actually likely between the ages of 11 and 8. This young girl was likely strangled, raped and decapitated. Her head was never found and her name remains unknown to this day. Some call her the St. Louis Jane Doe. Others call her Precious Hope. She was the subject of a well regarded documentary that you can watch. It's called our precious St. Louis's little Jane Doe Revisited. And now her case has also been covered In a segment of A great book, 25 Frozen 1. Murder and mayhem in the Midwest by Bob Ciphers. He will tell us all about the ins and outs of this frustrating, tragic case. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

Kevin Greenlee (2:53)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

Anya Cain (2:56)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

Kevin Greenlee (2:57)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

Anya Cain (3:06)

And this is the Murder of precious, the St. Louis Jane Doe.

Sam (3:17)

Sam.

Anya Cain (3:55)

Bob Ciphers, of course, is no stranger to the Murder Sheet. Many of you may remember he previously came on to talk about his excellent book, Dead Inside the hunt for the i70 killer.

Kevin Greenlee (4:05)

Now in his new book, 25 Frozen One Thawed, he gets into 25 of the most infamous Midwestern cases he's encountered, along with one standout case the police ultimately cracked. And we are thrilled to have him back.

Sam (4:19)

So, Bob, first of all, welcome back to the Murder Sheet. So excited to have you back.

Bob Ciphers (4:23)

You and Kevin are fantastic. I had a good time last time with the Dead End book, and I'm looking forward to this one.

Sam (4:29)

Yeah, we were really excited when you wrote another one. So thank you for coming back and we're so glad you had a nice time. This is gonna be. We're gonna talk about some really interesting cases today. I guess the first one I wanted to get into with you. This is one that haunted me. I remember reading about it on the way back, I think, even before I had the podcast. And the picture I saw of this victim's clothing has really stuck in my mind and haunted me ever since. This sounds like a weird statement, but I think people will understand as we get into it. So can we talk about the case of Precious Hope?

Bob Ciphers (5:02)

Absolutely. What a. What a sad one that was. So this book, 25 Frozen One Thought, is about cold cases that I worked during my career in St. Louis, just retired, but it's a collection of stories, and this one, Precious Hope, is clearly at the top of that list. I mean, it was. It was. The actual case was before my time. But the follow up stories and working with the police department, of all heartbreaks of this little girl, a headless girl whose body was found thrown in the basement of an abandoned building and never claimed, never no missing person report. Nobody ever comes forward. It's like, you know, you get to a point on a lot of the cases where, okay, police department, start tracking down the suspects, the family who benefits, the money, and then you get to a case where there's nothing to Track down. There is no family. There is nobody coming forward. There is no money, There is no suspects. Just heartbreaking. And then the things that happened after that, with her funeral, in the police involvement and the publicity and I mean, it's hard to read that story. And for me, even to relive that story and know the people that worked on it and dealing with them after all these years and to see the heartbreak or frustration with them, I mean, it's. That was incredible. Sad.

Sam (6:30)

Yeah, I imagine. And this section of the book, really, you know, it has that emotion and it has that sense of gravity of what happened to this little girl. This case predates you, as you mentioned, in terms of your career. I think they. They found her body February 28, 1983. When did you kind of come in and start reporting on it?

Bob Ciphers (6:52)

So in 83, I was a young news director in Midland, Texas. The homicide scene was in St. Louis, Missouri. And I came to St. Louis a couple jobs later in the late 80s. Didn't really do crime reporting for a few years after that. But as I met the people who did the crime reporting, I'd start, you know, bugging their ears. What cases have you worked? Blah, blah, blah. I started researching prominent cases in the area. We do anniversary stories on cases that were still in the public eye. And. And I bumped into Precious Hope. And the police officer who had worked on this case was a man named Joe Burgoon, who was the boy, a legendary. For 40 years, Joe was the lead homicide detective for the city of St. Louis. When you consider that a city that size has a couple hundred homicides a year, and he's done it for 40 years. I'm not good at trigonometry, but that's like 10,000 homicide cases. And Joe has seen them all. And this is the one that bothers him the most. And he did everything anybody could possibly do. He was a pallbearer at her funeral. He went on Oprah. He. He did everything for this case. But again, there is no perfect murder or no perfect crime. But I guess if you were going to do it and you're gonna leave a headless body in a bottom of a basement of a house nobody's ever gonna go into and nobody's ever gonna come forward. Like I said to Joe, where do you go from here? Where do you even start? It's. It's not like any of the other 10,000 that he ever worked on.

Sam (8:31)

It really is singular because in so.

Anya Cain (8:33)

Many of the other cases.

Sam (8:34)

So as you, it's 25 frozen, one thawed. 25 cold cases that are still cold, and one that got thawed. And in so many of the cases, you have grieving family members who are.

Anya Cain (8:45)

Saying, we want answers.

Sam (8:46)

We need to find this person, or we need to find who killed them. In this case, it's so unusual. We're used to hear. Hearing about John and Jane does, who are adults, and you can kind of figure in your mind, okay, people move away, they lose touch, they get estranged from family. You can see that, how that happens. But with a little girl, like a little child, where's the family?

Bob Ciphers (9:10)

Yeah. All they could figure out was she was black. They. They went through every missing child report, missing person report, from within hundreds and hundreds of miles, even across the whole country. There were none. They contacted every school district throughout America to see who has not been in class. Nothing. They sent. They literally sent letters to every school district in the United States. Do you have any missing children? No. There were reports of None. They put ads in black magazines. They met with psychics.

Sam (9:44)

They.

Bob Ciphers (9:44)

They went out on fishing tours in the Gulf of Mexico and talked to the Coast Guard, where they did everything in the world you could possibly do, and they just simply had nothing.

Sam (9:57)

It's so sad. I want to back up and go back to 1983 and sort of set the scene for people. So this all centers around a vacant building at 5635 Clemens Avenue. Can you tell me about this part of St. Louis? And sort of what we're looking at there.

Bob Ciphers (10:13)

Very rough area on the north side. Vacant buildings everywhere. Like you see in a urban area that's just been left behind. No reason for anybody to go in one of those vacant buildings. They're just standing, waiting to be demolished by a bulldozer. They weren't even enough. You know, a lot of times you'll see homeless people huddle around vacant buildings in the wintertime, burning stuff to keep warm. Nothing here. This was. This was. Whoever placed that body there probably found the perfect spot because nobody was ever going to go in here. It was a dreary spot. There was just no reason for anybody to ever set foot in that house. And so now we don't know how long the body had been there. It was water everywhere, dust, asbestos. Just absolutely nothing. All they found there was, you know, the yellow V neck sweater that you referenced, pants, underwear taken off. She had polished fingernails. No blood, blood. Streaks were on the wall. Police think she was probably murdered somewhere else and dumped there. She had bruises. It's just. It was an. It was an ugly, horrific scene. Not the kind of scene that you normally find a homicide at.

Sam (11:32)

No, certainly not. And you mentioned the bruises, which I think you mentioned in the book, may have evidence or maybe evidence of strangulation prior to decapitation.

Bob Ciphers (11:42)

Yeah, there was semen located on her body, so she's probably sexually assaulted. But again, 83 is before DNA came along. Really. I struggled with the DNA in the other book I wrote about the serial killer and that was in the 90s. So here, back in the 80s, DNA was, you know, just in its infancy. So there was no way to really make a connection there. This was a drug area, prostitution area. Police roped off, I think about a 16 block area. They didn't have a head. I mean they, they were looking for a head. That was the first thing we got a body here. They went underground into the city sewers. They went back through all sorts of years of prior records for boarded up buildings in the area. They checked that list to see who lived in all of these houses for the previous 20 years and all they could come up with was nothing. I mean, eventually the coroner says the girl's black, she's, she's probably around 10 years old. She didn't even weigh but about 65 pounds. And, but, but she was fairly tall. She was at that age. She was about 5ft tall without a head. And they're guessing she'd been dead for maybe about a week. But other than that, nothing.

Anya Cain (13:02)

That poor baby.

Sam (13:03)

I mean it's, it's really so sad. And you know, we mentioned this, this, this sweater and that was, that was absolutely the image that stuck with me. I think the Wikipedia page has that sweater as its image and for something that's not graphic, it's, it's just a sweater that's covered in blood. It's one of the most you, when you, when you know what it is, what you're looking at, it's pretty horrifying, I guess, for my understanding. And I was wondering if you could kind of clear this up. Is that like that sweater's been lost in terms of the evidence specifically, it's.

Anya Cain (13:35)

Been widely reported that police sent out the sweater to a psychic in Florida and that it was lost in the mail. Filmmaker Eduard Bird Souza covered the case in depth in his documentary Our Precious Hope. We mentioned that earlier he investigated what happened to the sweater. Detective Burgoon said it was sent to Noreen Rainier, a self proclaimed psychic, in the early 1990s.

Kevin Greenlee (13:58)

That decision was made by Chief Leroy Adkins in an attempt to drum up publicity on the case. The idea was that Rainier would touch it on an episode of some show.

Anya Cain (14:09)

Now, I'm just going to be very blunt here, so there's no confusion about.

Sam (14:13)

How we think about psychics.

Anya Cain (14:15)

But psychics are frauds. The ones who aren't knowingly lying are deceiving themselves. Nobody should be going around and claiming to have psychic visions about a cold case or a missing person's case or a murder. It's not right and it hurts people.

Kevin Greenlee (14:30)

Rainier told police she mailed it back to them via registered mail, but it never arrived. It's also been alleged that it was lost in a move and not in the mail.

Anya Cain (14:42)

For the record, Rainier was the subject of a 2017 article from the Skeptical Inquirer who called her the Grinch who stole Christmas from a grieving family. This article got into the August 12, 1989 disappearance of 19 year old Kimberly McAndrew in Halifax, Nova Scotia. You should read this article. It's extremely eye opening.

Kevin Greenlee (15:02)

Police should not ever work with psychics. Doing this was a big mistake and it resulted in the loss of crucial evidence. And unfortunately, Bob found that the mishandling of crucial evidence was just not unheard of back in the day.

Bob Ciphers (15:15)

There's another story in the book about a killing at a fraternity house in Illinois State where the murder weapon was a railway, a railroad, you know, Spike.

Sam (15:26)

Yeah.

Bob Ciphers (15:27)

And that it turned out that evidence that was in a crime lab for 10 years wound up being passed around a college criminology class. So every student in the class for a year had their fingerprints on the murder weapon. So mistakes can be made in the i70 case where 30 years later, police are investigating and I'd ask about, you know, DNA. They said, well, DNA evolved. Like back then, DNA was semen and saliva. Now we have touch and handler DNA, genealogy, DNA. And I go to these police and I say, because there'd be stuff up at a crime scene like a wedding veil wrapped in a gun. And I would say, boy, if we only had that wedding veil from 30 years ago. And it's Bob, I got it. And so you have great respect, but you have to understand in these police departments and investigations, administrations change buildings, change boxes, get moved around. There's another story in these 25 frozen in a case called the Blizzard of 78, where a police department in Litchfield, Illinois, for a missing man who's presumed dead, they'd lost the file completely on the case. They moved buildings and they went through eight different police department police captains. And when I talked to them, they didn't even know about the case. And it's like, hello, this is a murder case in your little teeny town from 30 years ago. Bob, we don't have the file anymore. We've lost it.

Anya Cain (16:59)

Despite that crucial error in judgment by the then police chief, Bob told us that much good and proactive detective work has been done on this case. And that doesn't really surprise us, frankly. You can have excellent work and also terrible bungles all within the same police investigation. It's usually not all or nothing because these cases involve all these different investigators and decision makers. Things are complicated and things are nuanced. That's life.

Bob Ciphers (17:27)

In this particular case for Precious Hope, for Joe Burgoon, the officer to get on Oprah, I mean that was a big chance. That was a big thing where he could go on there. And they got, you know, literally a lot of people to watch. But again, people like you and me see it and they're just horrified by it. But unless somebody comes forward, what do you have to go on? It's frustrating. Now they were able to actually arrest a person in that case, but. But that turned out to be maybe, probably likely, but not able to go forward. His name was Vernon Brown.

Sam (18:12)

Just to set this up, we have a case where we don't know who this is, but we have an idea of who killed her and what happened.

Bob Ciphers (18:21)

So years went by. Joe Burgoon is again, they talk about calling every school district in America. He's calling every police department in the country. Years go by and they had nothing. And then finally they did have a clue. And that was right underneath their nose was a man named Vernon Brown. When he was 20, he was convicted of molesting a little girl in Indiana. He went to jail for four years. He gets released and then another little girl disappears. Her name is Kimberly Campbell. She was 9, raped, strangled in a vacant residence. And guess who owns it. Brown's grandparents. So he's the prime suspect, but he was never charged. Well, then police start looking into Brown and they see more. 85, a couple years after Precious Hope is killed. 15 year old girl strangled in a creek. And then 86, 27 year old woman stabbed to death, her body in a river. He's a suspect in both of those also. So now you've got the serial killer angle going. And by the end of 85, so two years, he's living in St. Louis. Two years after precious Hope, he's left town. He's left town. He's changed his name to Thomas Turner. He's gone to your neck of the woods in Indiana. Well, so now we're in 86 and what happens? He lures a little nine year old girl named Janet Perkins into his house. Takes her where to his basement. Ties up her hands and feet and he strangles her. Police find her body the next day in a trash bag behind his house. And there's an eyewitness there who says he saw Brown taking the little girl into his home. He's arrested, he confesses, and then he says he wants to get more off his chest. He's starting to admit while he's in jail that he's killed people earlier. Many of them were found in basements, tied up, stabbed. But, but, but he didn't quite get around to Precious Hope. And that's what police really wanted to know. Was he the killer in Precious Hope? So they get him back now to a prison cell in St. Louis and boy, the police were going there non stop and they wanted to know about Precious Hope, but he never confessed to that one. He confessed to others and he's tied to others, but he wouldn't confess to Precious Hope. I mean, he was tied to like 20 of these cases. What's the difference between 20 and 21? I mean, they found out that Brown was tied to cases in 10 years in the same time period over 35 states. He was traveling America. So now every police detective in America wants to talk to this guy. And so what begins as a little headless girl in a basement. Now we're tracking down a serial killer to, you know, to put two and two together. Unfortunately, he never came forward. At 51 years old in 2005 he was executed. And whatever story he has about Precious Hope, he took to his grave.

Sam (21:29)

I want to go over, you know, kind of the, the links between him and Precious Hope for a minute and just like, tell me if I'm missing anything because I feel he's a very compelling suspect here, even if he never confessed to it. So he went after black women and girls. That was his preferred victim. And he was black himself. Most crime is interracial. He was, he would often bind his victims, strangle his victims. His victims. Some victims were in vacant homes. He liked the basement. It sounds identical to Precious Hope, except.

Bob Ciphers (22:05)

Precious Hope didn't have a head. The rest of them did. It's the whole headless thing. But he was dealing in young. Now, Precious Hope may have been the youngest of the bunch. I will say this, that. And for police, it just becomes at the end of the game, their clues really dried up when he died. It's kind of like there's a bunch of killings. You arrest a guy and the killings stop. You know what I'm talking about? And it's like, oh, really? Well, these things all kind of stopped in the midwest after Brown was arrested. All police can say is, bob, that's our best guy. We're never going to have a second best guy unless something crazy comes forward. But that's our guy. Vernon Brown was our guy. It is likely Vernon Brown killed Precious Hope. We believe Vernon brown killed precious Hope, but he's dead. She doesn't have a head, and nobody's ever going to come forward. And you talk about a cold case, or in this case, frozen. This is about as frozen as it gets.

Sam (23:10)

And it really makes you wonder if no one even came forward to claim her. What was the point of the decapitation? If it was Brown, what was he trying to hide? Where he didn't do that with previous victims. So it is perplexing.

Bob Ciphers (23:26)

It might have been a timeline thing that she might have been first and he didn't know what, you know, maybe scared and wants to get away with it. And Ben became more easy. I think the fascinating thing to me, besides the Precious Hope stuff that we've touched on, is what happened after all this. I mean, Joe Burgoon would not stop. They went and did autopsies. They dug. They dug her up out of her cemetery. They couldn't even find a cemetery plot for her. It was unmarked. Joe Burgoon would go out there and look around the land by himself on cold days.

Kevin Greenlee (24:02)

You heard that, right? You see, Precious Hope's burial was actually delayed for months. No family came to claim her. She was finally laid to rest Dec. 2, 1983, at Washington Park Cemetery. That was a historic African American cemetery founded in 1920. But in the 1980s, the cemetery stopped operating and stopped maintaining the graves. Decades later, St. Louis law enforcement decided to exhume Precious Hope for more forensic testing. But they could not find her grave. The cemetery was in that bad of a state of disrepair. Finally, after much searching, the detectives were able to locate Precious Hope and successfully exhumed her. It was widely reported that isotope tests were conducted on her bones. Those concluded that she likely lived her life in either the southeastern United States or the Midwest or the mid Atlantic. So it did not narrow things down much.

Sam (25:03)

This is a case. I'm sure a lot of listeners who are used to some of these cases getting solved by DNA are probably screaming in their heads, okay, but they have the body. They were able to exhume it where's the DNA? Where's the investigative genetic genealogy that can.

Anya Cain (25:18)

Perhaps pinpoint her relatives?

Bob Ciphers (25:22)

Yeah, well, the genealogical certainly has changed the game again. Back in the 80s, in the early 80s, there was none. And as we get to the 90s, it's semen and saliva. Now, there was semen on her body. Whether that was tested in 2003, before Vernon Brown died, I don't have a handle on that. It's just hard to say on a lot of these older cases. Now to the genealogical, which is what solved the Idaho murder cases. Well, who's this girl's grandparents to go test? We need somebody to go test for the genealogical. And I dealt with in the other book, the DNA people in Florida who worked on the serial killer case. And I'm told there, Bob, the DNA is advancing rapidly every few years. So again, what was no DNA in the 80s, that became semen and saliva. In the 90s, that became touch and handler. In the 2000s, that's become genealogical in the 2000s. Who knows what's next? I've dealt with some cops who have worked DNA cases where literally they are exhuming not just bodies of victims, they are exhuming grandparents, bodies of suspects. Okay, so stop and think about that. They are exhuming family relative bodies of grandparents who have been in graves for how many years? So we're not sure where this goes next. I'll say this, I don't see how you're going to tie any of that to precious hope because we don't know who the grandparents are. I don't think this is a DNA solvable case. I don't. In fact, police are saying, Bob, if it's Vernon Brown, the case is not only frozen, it's done, it's closed. We don't have another suspect. We never had another suspect. And he was an off the wall, obvious suspect. So they believe it was him. Unless something radically changes on this front, which would mean somebody coming forward and confessing. And again, would that confession be real or is that a confession for somebody to have a notch on their belt?

Sam (27:40)

I do want to ask you. So you mentioned, and this is something you kind of touch upon in the book too, talking about how, you know, they. They were able to maybe like, look at her isotope testing from bones and sort of indicate maybe she was from a couple of different southern states. That doesn't really narrow anything. You know, the hope with genetic genealogy is that you could even find great.

Anya Cain (28:03)

Grandparents or if somebody uploads DNA, you.

Sam (28:06)

Can find distant cousins. And then Start tracing it back. But one thing I know about, and I'm curious if this is a factor here. You know, a lot of this boils down to the African American community, perhaps around St. Louis or otherwise. And one thing about DNA testing is that, you know, that has, you know, been a bigger thing within white communities, you know, versus the. I guess what I'm saying is there's a dearth of DNA samples for African Americans in the United States. So it can actually be harder to use genetic genealogy because there is a. A racial disparity in who's uploading these tests. Is that fair to say?

Bob Ciphers (28:46)

Yeah.

Sam (28:46)

So we have less data to work with. And so if you have a white Jane Doe, you might actually be starting with a better set of data than if you have a African American Jane Jo. Is that right?

Bob Ciphers (28:58)

Yeah, absolutely.

Anya Cain (28:59)

And Bob says that there may be even less institutional will to keep going with this case for both financial reasons and because of the constant demand for resources to go into active, ongoing murder cases.

Kevin Greenlee (29:13)

Still, Bob thinks it's important the police keep pushing.

Bob Ciphers (29:17)

And I think you also have to understand there's a fairly significant cost in this for any DNA pursuit, any investigation. And I do think in this particular case, not that the case is ever completely shut down, but because of Vernon Brown and because of the lack of a head and because of the lack of appearance and because of what the DNA and because she's already been exhumed and we've gone through this before and because we're 40 years old now or whatever, my guess is that's probably not a case that's at the top of the charts right now for. Let's. Let's get the DNA going for another $50,000 or whatever. It's taxpayer money, unless there's grant donations. And again, you're trying to solve a case for some grieving family. We have thousands of them happening in St. Louis right now. There is no grieving family for this.

Sam (30:10)

Yeah, the squeaking wheel gets the grease.

Bob Ciphers (30:12)

You talk about the sadness of the little girl that's forgotten. She may be forgotten as some of these cases go on, as far as the work being involved, because they think they know who the killer was. There's no perfect answer.

Anya Cain (30:29)

Ultimately, this is one of the most troubling cold cases out there for me. A little girl was brutally murdered, possibly by serial killer Vernon Brown. Her last moments would have been terrifying. And then she was left decapitated and bound in an abandoned home. That's awful. That is sick. But what's worse is that no one has even come forward to claim her. How could that be? Someone had to have known this little girl. Someone had to have taken care of her at some point. Where are they? In most cases, when a child vanishes, the parents and guardians are clamoring for answers. Why the silence here? I truly hope that St. Louis police and the powers that be there take up Bob's charge. All cases matter, even cold ones, if there's anything that can be done, anything with DNA, anything with investigative genetic genealogy, even if it's just uploading this girl's profile and hoping for a match years down the line, I really hope that happens. Frankly, it needs to happen. This little girl deserves to get her name back. If you know anything about this case, call the St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department at 314-444-5822 or 314-23122. Or call the St. Louis Regional Crime Stoppers at 1-866-317-8477. You can also text STL and your tip to 274637.

Bob Ciphers (31:58)

I do think it's wonderful that the public sees that these cases that have almost no chance of being solved, how police officers are working them still 30 years later. And the dead end story on the serial killer, the other book is also the same thing. There is a woman on that case from St. Charles Police Department named Kelly Rhodes. Her only job, Anya, her only job today when she goes to work is to solve that case from 30 years ago. This is taxpayer money. And the public may say, are you crazy? There's no chance in hell. But you know what it also tells the public? You're a killer out there. You think you've got away with it. You're never getting away with it. We're going to hunt you down for 30 years. And I think that says a lot. But, boy, precious hope. You talk about a heartbreaker and you talk about Joe Burgoon.

Sam (32:49)

It shows you that human life matters. Every human life matters. And if you take a human life, there's going to be an attempt to hold you accountable. I want to talk about Burgoon for a minute because I feel like I kind of got to know him through reading your book. He really pops up a lot. He's in a lot of these different cases because he is the cold case investigator.

Bob Ciphers (33:07)

When you've done 10,000 of them, you're the guy, right?

Sam (33:10)

You're the guy.

Bob Ciphers (33:12)

I've met a lot of people in my life. I've been in rooms with six presidents, movie stars, sports stars. Joe Burgoon is tied for first on my book. They don't, they just do not come. And I, I just spent time with him. He's in his 90s. They get no better.

Sam (33:30)

What do you think made him such an effective investigator? Cold case investigator, obviously. Unfortunately, this book highlights a lot of cases he did not get to solve, but he solved many others.

Bob Ciphers (33:40)

Well, he grew up in a family of, of police department officials. His father was a cop, his brothers were cops, his children were cops. He went off and served in the, in the military for a couple years. And as soon as he came back, it was like, hey, you're, you're a police officer. And then there was an opening in homicide and then it became like he was the guy. The, the precious Hope case from 83 is the one that breaks his heart the most. But the thawed case in 87 is the biggest case he ever worked on. So he's juggling both of these at the same time, basically. In addition to every other homicide call that's come in in that time. I tell the story. The first time I met Joe, I was a much younger reporter standing out in the rain. It was a cold night, umbrella, homicide scene. Me and another reporter were out there and I was like, man, this is going to be a long night. And then up comes this old Plymouth car with like Colombo guy gets out, he's got the raincoat on and the fedora cap and my, the guy next to me, the older, the older reporter says, well, this case is solved. And I says, well, how do you know that? And he goes, joe Burgoon just pulled up. And I never forgot that. And I kid you about that all the time. Joe says, I wish my batting average was 100%.

Sam (35:02)

That's amazing. So he would just basically work these cases until they were, he got, I mean, like, he was tenacious. Is that the kind of defining factor of him?

Bob Ciphers (35:11)

I think tenacious. He was the friendly cop. Also, he would tell me when he would get these murder suspects and, and people weren't going to confess. He would pull him aside and he would, he would offer him, you know, a drink or a smoke or something and say, listen, you're going down for this and you better take advantage of it now. And I'm gonna, I'll be here to help the process along. But he was able to build up rapport. He was able to make sources in the neighborhoods, specifically an old white guy making sources in the, in the African American neighborhood where they, the people there trusted him. You know, people see, you know, crime ridden black neighborhoods and think, well, that's, you know, you know, a horrible place to live. Well, it is for the people who live there. And, yeah, there's a lot of angst against police in some communities, but also in some communities, they need the police department there. And a lot of the African American residents are dependent upon the police departments. And I think they became quickly in those neighborhoods, a lot of them became friendly and respectful of Joe Burgoon.

Sam (36:21)

You mentioned this one was one of his most frustrating. What do you think it was about this one? Is it just the age of the victim and the tragic circumstances? What can you tell me about how he remains haunted by this?

Bob Ciphers (36:33)

Yeah, he told me when he first got the call and he first got to the scene that he thought it was going to be an early. An easy case to solve. He just thought, you know, we'll find out who the victim is, we'll find out who the family is, we'll start doing our investigation, and that's going to lead us to the. To the killer. And then obviously, it became not that at all. I think for Joe, I don't think it was the difficulty of the case or really, as he says, Bob, the impossibility of the case. I don't think it was the frustration there. I think it was the heartbreak. Of all the homicides he's covered, there's a grieving family member somewhere, and he feels a kinship to that person. He's always said that, hey, I'm working for the city for a paycheck, but I'm working for these victims. I'm doing everything I can. I want every victim of every homicide to know that, solved or unsolved, Joe Burgoon showed up every day and did the best he could. And he said on this one, there were no victims. And Joe said, I'm the one that was sad every night. If there's no family here, if there's nobody else, she doesn't have grieving people crying for her. And Joe was like, bob, I'm crying for her. And it was just. I'll tell you, that guy, that job, just incredible human being.

Anya Cain (38:04)

Thanks so much to Bob Ciphers for talking with us. Check out his book, 25 Frozen 1 Murder and Mayhem in the Midwest. It gets even more in depth on Precious Hope. And it also goes into a bunch of fascinating cases, many of which I hadn't even heard of before. We will include links to the places you can get his book in our show Notes. Also as a note, Bob is going to the next crime con in May. So are we come hang out with us. Use Code Murder sheet and get 10% off your standard badges.

Kevin Greenlee (38:32)

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

Anya Cain (38:52)

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Kevin Greenlee (39:16)

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Anya Cain (39:27)

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