The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: A Wife’s Story: Part One

Summary

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The Murder Sheet: The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: A Wife’s Story, Part One

Podcast: Murder Sheet
Episode Date: October 16, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (A), Kevin Greenlee (B)
Main Guests: "G" (Temujin Kensu/Fred Freeman's ex-wife, words read by her daughter Laina)
Topic: Abuse, coercion, and lived experience inside the marriage to Temujin Kensu (Fred Freeman), the convicted murderer of Scott Macklem.

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Episode Overview

In this deeply personal and disturbing episode, The Murder Sheet hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee present the first part of an extensive interview with "G," the former wife of Temujin Kensu (also known as Fred Freeman). Through G’s own words—read by her daughter, Laina—the episode explores her life before and during her relationship with Kensu, offering harrowing insight into the coercion, manipulation, and severe abuse she suffered. The episode serves to provide context for Kemujin Kensu's character, as experienced by an intimate partner, acknowledging the polarizing discourse regarding his guilt and personality in the Macklem murder case.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Context: Who is Temujin Kensu? (02:36–03:29)

• Kensu (Freeman) is a polarizing figure; some see him as a violent criminal, others as a misunderstood genius.
  • Quoting Kevin Greenlee:

    “If you follow the case... you'll hear that Kenzu is a violent and stupid rapist with a lifelong history of causing pain and suffering... [others say] not only is he innocent of the murder, but he is a wise and wonderful and downright gentle man...” (02:49)

• The episode seeks to cut through competing narratives by focusing on G’s first-person recollections.

Interview Methodology (04:52–05:51)

• G participated through a unique process: her daughter Laina recorded conversations; the transcript is selectively edited for clarity and trauma sensitivity.
  • “We edited a few things for clarity and for privacy... trying to be a more trauma-informed true crime podcast.” (05:08)

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G’s Life Before Kensu (06:17–06:37)

• G recalls a “normal” life as a teenager in Flint, Michigan, living with her mother.
  • “My life was normal. I think I was about 16. I had friends, going to school. It was normal...” (06:22, C/G)

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Meeting Fred Freeman (Kensu) and Early Impressions (06:37–08:03)

• G met Fred through mutual friends; Fred was older (about 19 or 20 when she was 16); known for his dramatic martial arts and ‘ninja’ persona.
  • “[He] was always putting on displays of his martial arts and was teaching them privately.” (07:04, C/G)
  • “At first I was afraid of him. Yeah. I thought he was dangerous.” (08:03, C/G)
• His apartment left a strong impression: “the walls... were red. He was so impressed with his bad self that the walls... were red. And it was very dark.” (09:19, C/G)

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Start of the Relationship; Early Control and Violence (11:32–14:54)

• Courtship began after Fred was jailed and started writing to G; she was 16–17.
• He moved into G’s grandmother’s house with her and quickly started to exert control, including isolating G from her mother and testing physical boundaries.
  • “He decided he was going to do his test drive of slapping me to see how I did. I guess I took it really well because I never said anything.” (14:00, C/G)
  • On the gradual escalation: “He was training me how to be abused.” (16:46, C/G)

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Escalation: Violence, Intimidation, and the Move to Washington (16:57–21:22)

• After conflict with G’s mother, Fred violently assaulted her mother’s boyfriend with nunchucks and vandalized the home.
  • “He hospitalized that guy with his nunchucks.” (18:20, C/G)
• G describes how they fled Michigan for the outskirts of Fort Lewis, Washington, living in a tent and surviving by stealing food—at Fred’s insistence, G did the stealing (21:22, C/G).
• A chilling note about power dynamics: “He made me steal the food... I was a good runner.” (21:26, C/G)

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Deepening Psychological Abuse: "Ninja Council," Fake Charities, and Weapon Training (22:58–31:52)

• Fred fabricated an elaborate fiction of a “ninja council,” which he used to further manipulate G through paranoia and fear. He staged their living environment to reinforce the notion they were being watched.
  • “The council was... people that were watching after him, and... they can step in at any time and resolve any situation, whether I was the situation or someone else.” (25:44, C/G)
• G was forced to collect money door-to-door for fake charities, wearing business attire found in thrift stores, carrying a homemade “canning jar” for donations.
  • “I was soliciting funds for the Multiple Sclerosis Society… that was Fred’s choice. And then I got MS later in life.” (28:33, C/G; 29:29, C/G)
  • Dark humor underscores the trauma: “If Fred was a little bit smarter about making a scam official, he would have went to a print shop.” (31:52, C/G)

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Physical Violence and Control: Injuries and Marriage Under Duress (32:03–37:11)

• G describes ongoing weapons training, even while pregnant, and a traumatic incident where Fred broke a bone in her foot with a staff during martial arts practice.
  • “He took and rolled that staff up and hit it like a baseball bat down on the top of my foot and broke this… big bone.” (35:06, C/G)
• Their marriage was not voluntary; she describes marrying him only out of fear:
  • “I didn’t want to get married. I was just too afraid to tell him no.” (36:42, C/G)

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Patterns of Abuse and Coercion (37:50–39:36)

• Fred used a classic cycle of abuse: eggshell walking, sudden blow-ups, then romanticizing phases.
  • “If you look at it through the eggshell cycle program... you have your eggshell moments, you have your blow up moments. Then you have your romanticizing moments.” (37:50, C/G)
• G was compelled to help Fred harass and intimidate his past partners, assisting in collect calls intended to frighten them.
  • “I would do some type of introductory verbiage... and get the other party on the line so that he could get on the phone and... do his intimidation like, ‘I know where you are...’” (38:54, C/G)

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The Most Disturbing Abuse: Forced Suicide Attempt While Pregnant (39:47–44:26)

• G recounts the horrifying moment Fred commanded her to commit suicide while she was pregnant, testing her loyalty with a sword:
  • “He had me kneel down on the floor facing the wall... he handed me a sword... He keeps saying things... ‘If you really love me then prove it. You need to show me right now that you’re willing to die for me.’” (41:09–42:46, C/G)
  • G describes pushing the blade into her own stomach at his insistence until he told her to stop.
    • “I start pushing the sword towards my belly... it starts going into my skin and cutting. And he let it carry on... at that point, I already had a half inch of blade in my gut.” (42:46, C/G)
  • The memory is clearly traumatizing: “It’s a moment. I just, I can’t believe I ever got out... if somebody says, like, let's get hypnotized, I'm like, not on the last day of my life.” (43:52, C/G)

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Reflections: On Survival, Ongoing Threat, and the Importance of Telling the Story (44:17–45:47)

• G reflects on how Kensu (Freeman) remains a danger, manipulating through empathy now that he is incarcerated.
  • "I think... he still continues to do that... Back then, he did it through fear. Now he's using empathy." (45:09, A/Anya/Laina)
• Both mother and daughter express a sense of duty to tell the truth, warning that Kensu would victimize again if he is ever released.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the normalization and escalation of abuse:

  • “He was training me how to be abused.” (16:46, C/G)

• On the manipulative Ninja Council mythos:

  • "The council was... always placed around so they could see our house. And if things are going awry or whatever, they can step in at any time and resolve any situation..." (25:44, C/G)

• On the psychological toll:

  • “One of the things I’ve learned since I’ve been with Fred is to guard my mind and my heart.” (43:52, C/G)

• On forced loyalty-proof:

  • "He keeps saying things... ‘If you really love me then prove it. You need to show me right now that you’re willing to die for me.’” (42:46, C/G)

• On the ongoing threat posed by Kensu:

  • “He’s still doing it on a different scale. The only difference is he doesn’t have a quiet, secure living room to torture people. And so now he just rages in different ways.” (45:45, A/Anya/Laina)
  • “Somebody’s gonna go through this again.” (45:47, C/G)

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 02:36–03:29 — Introduction to Kensu’s contested reputation
• 16:46 — “He was training me how to be abused.”
• 18:20 — Fred violently attacks G’s mother’s boyfriend
• 25:44 — Explanation of Ninja Council mythos
• 28:33 — Forced charity fraud and dark irony of G’s later MS diagnosis
• 35:06 — Description of bone-breaking injury
• 36:42 — Marriage under duress
• 38:54 — G compelled to participate in harassment/intimidation calls
• 42:46–43:52 — Forced suicide attempt while pregnant
• 45:45–45:47 — Reflections on Kensu’s ongoing threat

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Tone and Language

• The tone is conversational but unflinching, with G and Laina employing dark humor and sarcasm (particularly around the “ninja council” and Kensu’s scams) alongside raw, painful admissions.
• G is candid, often mocking Kensu’s manipulativeness and self-importance even as she relates severe trauma.
• Both G and Laina are self-aware, acknowledging the complexity and difficulty of telling this story.

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Conclusion

This episode of The Murder Sheet offers a rare, harrowing window into the lived reality of an abuser’s partner—a woman who suffered years of manipulation, violence, and psychological warfare at the hands of Fred Freeman (Temujin Kensu). By preserving the mother-daughter dialogue, the hosts allow “G’s” story to cut through the polarizing public narratives and dispel myths, showing the granular and painfully real effects of intimate partner terrorism. The episode ends with a note of gratitude to G and Laina for their courage in sharing their truth.

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Recommended for listeners interested in: True crime, domestic violence awareness, criminal psychology, survivor narratives, trauma-informed journalism.

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Transcript

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[B]

Content Warning this episode includes profanity as well as discussion of murder, rape, suicide, domestic abuse, animal abuse, child abuse, and the abuse of an infant. That's right, it's an episode about Temujin Kenzu.

[A]

If you follow the case of Temujin Kenzu online, you will find very different opinions of him. People cannot even agree on his name. Is he Temujin Kenzu or Fred Freeman?

[B]

Both get used, but the differences go far beyond that. If you Listen to people like us. You will hear that Kinzu is a violent and stupid rapist with a lifelong history of causing pain and suffering wherever he goes. You will also hear that he is guilty of murdering Scott Macklem In 1986, the crime for which he has been incarcerated for nearly 40 years.

[A]

Kenzou has acolytes, though, who paint a very different picture of the man. They insist that not only is he innocent of the murder, but he is also a wise and wonderful and downright gentle man. A uniquely brilliant genius who has insights and gifts that can benefit us all.

[B]

Where does the truth lie?

[A]

Well, they say no one knows a man as well as the woman who lives with him, his wife. So let's hear what she has to say about Temujin Kenzu, the man she knew as Fred Freeman. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[B]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[A]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Murder of Scott Macklemore. The Guilt of Temujin A Wife Story, Part one.

[A]

Before we get to the interview, we we want to include a few words about how these episodes were created.

[B]

The interview is with a woman we call G. She was Kinzu's wife and is also the mother of Lena, who we previously had on the program.

[A]

G wanted to share her highly personal story with us all, but she preferred for her voice not to be heard on the podcast. So Laina recorded a couple of conversations she and her mother had about Kenzou. During those talks, Lena asked her mother some questions that we provided. Lena shared the recordings with us and we prepared a transcript of them. We edited a few things for clarity and for privacy. For instance, we removed the discussions about the sexual abuse that G suffered at Kenzu's hands. We then sent the transcripts to Lena and her mother for them to review. This is all part of trying to be a more trauma informed true crime podcast. We seek to report these stories. We do not seek to re traumatize victims.

[B]

We realized it would be more meaningful for all of us if Laina would be able to record with us and to read the words of her own mother. We were delighted when Lena agreed to do that. So in what you are about to hear, Anya will be reading Lena's part of the original conversation. Lena will be reading the words of her mother. With all of that said, let's get to the interview.

[A]

First question is what was your life like before you met Fred Freeman?

[C]

My life was normal. I think I was about 16. I had friends going to school. It was normal. I was living with my mom. My older sisters had moved up and got their own apartments and stuff. So yeah, it was normal.

[A]

What city were you in?

[C]

Flint, Michigan.

[A]

How did you meet Fred Freeman?

[C]

I met Fred through a boy named D.M. who was a friend of mine in junior high. And he was friends with someone that knew Fred. Fred had made himself well known amongst high schoolers. Apparently there were quite a few that knew him.

[A]

How old was he at the time?

[C]

Well, let's see. Fred's three or four years older than me. So if I was 16, he had to be already past graduating age, right?

[A]

Like 19, 20. Ish. Something. Yeah. Okay.

[C]

And. And the younger guys were impressed because he was always putting on displays of his martial arts and was teaching them privately. The boy that I had a crush on in junior high is how I got introduced to Fred initially.

[A]

So the boy you had a crush on introduced you to Fred?

[C]

Yeah, I was boyfriend, girlfriend with him and he was an acquaintance of his, was friends with Fred and he would go over to Fred sometimes for teaching and to like be with his friend when his friend would get training.

[A]

What was the relationship like at first?

[C]

You gotta imagine the 16, 17 year old dynamic when you got somebody that's flipping and able to jump up and do reverse back kicks and hit street signs that are like 10ft off the ground.

[A]

Oh, seriously? Yeah. Oh, like acrobatic stuff. Like seriously.

[C]

Yeah. And that's why all the stuff, when the ninja stuff, which is gonna come into this conversation, is entirely believable because we witnessed the stuff he was able to do and we were all young, impressionable teen kids.

[A]

Gosh, so much wasted talent in so many ways. What was the relationship like?

[C]

At first I was afraid of him. Yeah. I thought he was dangerous. His house that we went to, he was dating a girl named Lana.

[A]

Wait, I'm sorry, what?

[C]

Lana.

[A]

Oh, come on. Sorry, Give me a second. Hold on. Is that where my name came from?

[C]

I hope not. As corny as the Billy Joel song is. I hope it's from the Billy Joel song, but I don't know.

[A]

I wondered that on the way here.

[C]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, I did. Yeah. I wondered if he named me after some girl that he had interest in because he was violent. It's. It's not a great song. It's literally the worst. And I like Billy Joel.

[C]

There's nothing else I can do. Cause I'm doing It all for Laina.

[A]

It's terrible.

[C]

It's so bad.

[A]

I was singing it, so I was like, why would you name your kid after this? It's a song that I was like, I know, I literally. Gosh, damn. I thought about that on the way here. I was like, I wonder if I'm named after a girl that he had something for. Like just like. Okay, well, well, reconvene. Sorry, back to it.

[C]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, Lana was a desperately nice girl.

[A]

I'm. Yeah, I'm sure she was. He was really good at picking nice girls.

[C]

Yeah. Eventually she got away. He got distracted with other women and then eventually with me.

[A]

Okay, do you know if he abused her?

[C]

Yeah, we witnessed it. Not physical, but I definitely witnessed verbal abuse. His house, you know, I. I gotta tell you about his house because his house is what left an impression on me. He went by the name Red. Red Fred back then. Kind of like cool cat, but even more disgusting. And when we went to the house, there's this apartment thing that they were renting, which ironically was only about three knocking doors down kitty corner from where I was living at the time. Which is probably why he focused on me once he went to jail and decided to write me. He probably memorized my damn address because he's crazy like that. But anyways, his house, the walls, they were red. What? Like he was so impressed with his bad self that the walls in that apartment were red. And it was very dark. It didn't have windows open. I don't remember windows, but I know it had windows. It was a bottom floor, the main floor. But I do remember the first time I ever walked in there. It was about pre dusk time. And it was already so dark in that house. They had the lights on and I noticed that they had a lot of red and they had a lot of black and the walls were red.

[A]

So it was already just demonic right from the get go. So you not only got a red flag, you got a red banner, the red wall. And then you jumped over that. You were like, that's my guy. Only one thing didn't show up that day. The giant hand from the book of Daniel didn't come down. So it wasn't enough for you to go, no, this might be a bad idea. Are you kidding me? I'm sorry. I love you.

[C]

That's okay. I'm. I'm dumber than a box of rocks. I mean, come on, bring it. I'm. I put two years into this guy. He's gonna love me. He's gonna love me.

[A]

All right, I will stop ra. Anyway, I love you. Okay, so they're going to listen to this and go, what is wrong? We're just trauma bonded. But it's fine though. So you said you were afraid of him, but how did we, how did we even start a relationship?

[C]

Well, I, I wasn't afraid at first. I just knew that this was a territory I was not comfortable with, is the best way to put it. I, I knew that whatever was going on with those guys, I didn't want to be a part of it at the time. I was just like, yeah, nah, Fred's great and all, but I'm not somebody that carries a banner around like, woohoo, you can kick. I'm gonna be in your fan club, you know, it wasn't me, I guess. Well, until he wrote me and I got flattered and lonely at 17.

[A]

So when he was first out before. So you met him at this apartment with his friends and then the courtship part doesn't start until he gets arrested?

[C]

Basically, yeah. It started when he was in jail. He started writing me letters. He had his sister deliver pictures that he drew from me in letters he had written. And she came to the front porch and brought a package of letters and pictures and songs, things that he had written, things that other people wrote that he thought were co and loved. And she dropped them off at my house. We had a brief, awkward, like two minute exchange from the front porch. She didn't come in or nothing.

[A]

And you were 16?

[C]

I might have already been 17 at that point because I was communicating with him. I don't remember the time of the year. I know it was cold because she was in her winter coat. So it might have been. Yeah, it might have been 16. It depends on the time of the year. Well, wait, he didn't get out until Christmas, so Yeah, I was 16.

[A]

So did him getting out. Basically. That's what led you to be like, we're dating now there.

[C]

Yeah. He didn't have anywhere else to go.

[A]

And you said that he pretty much just did an overstay and moved in through just not leaving.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

And that was at grandma's house?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And did grandma have a boyfriend live in there too, or you said it was just the two of you? Just us, yeah. Okay, so how long after he got out was he in? Was it almost immediately or was it like over the course of.

[C]

Well, I don't, I want to say I don't know why he was arrested, first and foremost.

[A]

You don't know why?

[C]

No, I don't remember. I probably did know at some point either he told me, which is possible. I don't remember. So I don't know if he told me or if I learned of it because when you go to jail, they're like such and such docket number. I know there's ways you can find out. I don't honestly remember how much I investigated, but I would think that he was in there for more than 30 days for sure. Okay, so that's that part. I know that would have been another arrest history, though, because he did do jail time and he had prior juvenile things. But this was as an adult.

[A]

He was an adult at that time. Okay. And you said he did a juvenile arrest as well?

[C]

Yeah. From what he said, yes, he had.

[A]

When was the first time? I guess you could say that things turned bad. Do you remember that or no?

[C]

Yeah. Fred had begun to go against my mom with me struggling to have a healthy respect for her. It was just easy for him to get me to side and be like, hey, we're just going to live here and we're going to do what we want to do.

[A]

How long in was this? Do you remember?

[C]

I'd say it didn't even take a month. It didn't take very long for him to decide that it was important to bond with me. It was easy for him to jump on board with me disrespecting my mom as a teen, things like that. And then before I knew it, it just seemed like there was never anything good to say about my mom. As he continued to train me and everything, I noticed that it was turning against her. So my mom and I's relationship had already fallen apart. That was also around the same time that he decided he was going to do his test drive of slapping me to see how I did. I guess I took it really well because I never said anything. And then that became successful for him, I guess because as I was training and stuff, he would hit me and if I wasn't doing things correctly. Open hand or the first time it was open hand. He didn't make me bleed until we moved to Washington. That was the first time he hit me and made me bleed.

[A]

Okay. So at this point they were just hard slaps and.

[C]

Yeah, hard slaps, pushes and hair pulling.

[A]

Were you getting punched yet?

[C]

Not then. Not yet. Well, I mean, we'd spar, but he didn't use it against me like he did later on.

[A]

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[C]

But he's training me how to be abused.

[A]

Yes, I was gonna say we're talking about abuse, grooming. Can you tell me about what happened the day that you guys left grandma's?

[C]

Yeah. Wow, that was a. That was a big day. It started earlier on the day because.

[A]

And you were 17 at this point?

[C]

Yeah, I would have been 17, yes. My mom had already started disagreeing with him openly and things like that and told him she wanted to leave, wanted him somewhere else to go. He decided that wasn't going to happen and threatened her.

[A]

How long in was it? A month? A couple months or were you at.

[C]

No, this would have been. Well, it was summertime now when the exit part happened and I know that because we were out on top of the rooftop across the street watching this guy remove all of Fred's stuff. So it was winter when he moved in and it was. It was wintertime on the. The day he got released. And when all that violence happened with my mom, it was summertime. So my mom started telling him that she wanted him out of the house. He wasn't having it, he wasn't listening, being disrespectful to her. And I was just going along with it because he had already taught me at that point that I wasn't allowed to disagree with him anymore. So I was just doing that whole thing. And so the day the exit came, she told him that she wanted him out. And I don't remember any violence or anything at that point, but. But I do know that she said, if you don't get your stuff out of here, I'm going to get it out for you. So that evening they had that discussion. We went over on top of the building across the street, which was Fred's old apartment complex that he lived in. He climbed up on top of the roof.

[A]

The apartment with the red walls?

[C]

Yeah. And we were looking across kitty corner. We saw my mom's boyfriend at the time go over there and started taking the stuff out. They were taking Fred's stuff out of the house, moving his stuff out. And Fred told me to stay there. He went down from the building and went over to the house. I never saw him. I didn't see him cross the street, but I know that he did what he did. So anyways, he goes over there and they're moving his motorcycle out or something. But he goes over there, he takes a pair of nunchucks with him and he hospitalized that guy with his nunchucks.

[A]

So you were able to see Fred beat him up?

[C]

I couldn't see it. I did not see the interaction. I didn't see them inside or outside. All I know is that Fred was back up on the building and he's like, come on, we gotta go somewhere else or whatever. And we did not go back to the house that evening. We left.

[A]

Did he go after Grandma too?

[C]

Now Grandma wasn't there. I know her boyfriend was. I don't know if anyone else was there, but I know that her boyfriend was hospitalized with severe wounds. And when we went back the next day, at that point, Fred, apparently in the timeframe he was over there when he was doing all that beating up stuff, had just demolished and spray painted and like vandalized the inside of our house. Everything that my mom and I had was wrecked.

[A]

Seriously?

[C]

Yeah. Jesus.

[A]

Like, he went back in and did it?

[C]

Yeah. My mom never went back. Well, from the story I heard that she Was so over it. She just left everything and started over. She didn't even bother picking up the essentials. And I was like, oh, that's unfortunate, because I didn't know about that part of the story until I escaped him and came back to my family. I didn't know that had happened, that she left. Yeah. And I didn't know that he had beat up her boyfriend so badly that he got hospitalized. I knew that he had vandalized the house. I saw that because he took me in there later, what I believe was the day after, to get my clothes.

[A]

Where did you guys go after that?

[C]

Well, that's when he started planning to go to Washington to be with this friend, this sky friend that he had. I don't know from where. His name was T. He was an airborne ranger from Fort Lewis, Washington. So we packed up a duffel peg, bought a couple Greyhound bus tickets, and headed for the state of Washington, where his buddy was going to help him get an apartment and a job. But that didn't happen. And we ended up staying in the woods on the outskirts of Fort Lewis while him and his friend were trying to figure out, like, what all was going on. And we were living in a tent on the outskirts of this bombing range we found out later.

[A]

Did you say a bombing range where they would do practice bombs?

[C]

Yes, ma'. Am.

[A]

Why would you do that?

[C]

Well, we didn't know our way around.

[A]

I'm learning too much right now. I'm going to need a moment.

[C]

I did say it was on the outskirts.

[A]

Yeah, I know what you said. I'm just still, like, you said, bombing range. I'm like, why would you be there, though?

[C]

Well, because there was country roads with limited traffic, so that's why we were there. And we could steal food from grocery stores to eat and live the dream. And by the way, I stole all the food. He never stole anything. He made me do it.

[A]

He made you steal the food?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

That doesn't surprise me.

[C]

I was a good runner.

[A]

He likes his ladies to do his work for him. So the next question is, can you tell us about the abuse, which is very broad. So I will ask, is there anything in particular that you think? I mean, there's a lot, obviously, but can I ask something? I remember you telling me?

[C]

Sure, yeah. Let's go with that. Because then at least we'll have something, because I could just go on and on.

[A]

So I remember you talking about taking a beating for a girlfriend that he had.

[C]

Yep. Yeah. I can't remember her name because he.

[A]

Would also Date other women. Right?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Did that start before or after I was born?

[C]

That was after you were born.

[A]

Was he doing that prior, or was that something that only came after?

[C]

Well, of course there's a likelihood, but the only ones I know about is when S came to visit from Washington. G was her maiden name. She came to visit, popped up in our apartment, the same apartment that him and I were living at. So when this other gal shows up on the scene, I notice that certain particulars are missing out of my lingerie. And I asked him about it. He acted like he didn't know. And then I'm in the grocery store one day. This is after this S woman has already come out, but I just happened to be in the grocery store by myself, which is ironic because I have no idea how that happened, but it did. And this gal comes up to me. She's beautiful, lovely lady, way out of his league. And she approaches me and starts saying things to me like, I know who you are. And, well, the thing is, he had been telling me that this gal, she was very special. She was somebody at the council, this ninja council.

[A]

Oh, right. I. Because we're now Ninja council, by the way. They didn't ask that. I'm going to ask you to go over that, if that's okay.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. So the ninja council is having this special visitor come to our apartment that day. This is the timeframe when I had to do things like go and sleep at the park with you when you were a baby so they could have the apartment. So anyways, I didn't know about that day until she caught me in the grocery store. And she starts asking me these questions. And I was scared to death of her because all I could think is, everybody's watching me right now. I can't answer this lady, because if I do, they're going to kill me. Fred's going to find out, and I'm going to be dead. So I just get extremely nervous, and I backed away. And I said, look, lady, I don't know who you are. I don't want to know anything about you and Fred. Everything you're asking me, I. I can't answer you. And she's talking about how he. I think because she has kids, teenagers or something. She said that he had kind of come into their life. He was slowly taking over things, and money and stuff is missing. And she's approaching me. Somehow she knew me, even though I didn't know her. And I'm like, okay. And I'm really scared. And somehow I get away from it and continue on. But I told him about it, and that was a bad idea because that hurt. You know, apparently I wasn't supposed to speak with anybody from the council and things like that. And I'm like, all right. So anyways, that's the only time that I can remember hearing of her. She had mentioned something to the effect that they've been seeing each other for quite a while. I think a couple months.

[A]

And when you said that hurt, is that because he decided to beat you up over it?

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. Like, it was my fault that I talked to her.

[A]

Not her fault, though. Okay, that's great.

[C]

No, she. She is still in training. You know, she. She was a lovely lady. And she's also lucky enough to get away.

[A]

Yes. She sounds like a real gem of a woman. I. I could have had two moms. Okay, can you back up for me and tell me when you first started to learn about this council or. I know you had talked about the ninja training and things like that, but. Because Fred vehemently denies the whole ninja thing, I know from what you've shared with me, obviously, that this was a very big part of your life and a lot of the fear that surrounded why things progressed the way they did. Because there were things actually happening in the physical world to reiterate the things he was saying. Right. So can you tell me about that and how it started? Do you remember? I mean, obviously, brainwashing is a slow process, but the things that started to make it outside of just. Yeah, we're doing martial arts now. This has become our lifestyle. We're on the run. There's a council, there's a gym.

[C]

Well, the council thing didn't kick in until we went to Washington when he had me on my own. That's when he started with the council stuff.

[A]

And what was the council?

[C]

The council was. Because he was a ninja. So there were people that were watching after him, and they were always placed around so they could see our house. And if things are going awry or whatever, they can step in at any time and resolve any situation, whether I was the situation or someone else. That's what I was told. He would do everything he could, in my opinion, to make you think that. Like, to the point of making things look suspicious, like tossing over part of the house.

[A]

Like, he would go in and stage stuff. Like someone had come in and ruffled through the house.

[C]

Yeah, I believe he did, because that would be how he could make me believe that somebody had been in the home. Like, we would come in and he'd be saying things that I didn't notice, like, oh, that's not the same as it was when we were in here last time. And I'd be like, it's not, I didn't know. And he's like, oh, you don't pay attention. I'm thinking, shit. I don't know how to answer. But that kind of thing started when we got to Washington, while we were still in Flint. He was making it pretty clear that he already had his ninja training. He also had all of the equipment that he needed. I mean, I witnessed it like many of his articles. You know, the, the black, the separated cloth shoe things. So, you know, the toes, the quietness of the sue, all of it.

[A]

Wait, he had a ninja suit? Are you serious?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You had to buy this stuff for him?

[C]

Yeah, initially he had stuff. And then I don't really remember where he came up with the money. I don't know that. But I know he had these parts, like all the parts he needed for what he did because he showed me the outfit and everything. And then as he was training me in different weaponry and things, it was basically like, oh, this is something I could work towards too, like the facial covering. And I'm like, yeah, okay, whatever, that'd be cool. So I can run around parks at night and chop shit up.

[A]

But then it went from playing dress up to a whole full blown alternate reality.

[C]

Only when he went into his ninja combat mode, the rest of it was just everyday misery. But yeah, there were times when he had things he had to do for the council. Yeah, he'd be gone for a few hours, he'd have his stuff. He was probably spying on another girl. Now that I look back, it's easy for me to figure, oh, he must have had somebody else he's doing the whole ninja spy terrorizing thing on too. Okay, yeah, I get it now. Yeah, it was interesting. And that was all, like I said, all that stuff really started unfolding when he started really integrating that in. When we moved to Washington. He introduced me to the ideas of it and things like that in Michigan.

[A]

So he's going through ransacking stuff to make it look like somebody's been in. And then now, at what point was it you said you had to use a fake name or something to come in and out of the house? I remember you telling me that when I was a kid.

[C]

Yeah, I did. There was a phrase, I don't remember what it was to this day.

[A]

That's probably the Lord blocking it out. So don't try to Remember it? It's probably a curse.

[C]

I had to say this whole sentence, plus my new magical ninja wife name. I don't even remember what the damn sentence was, but if I didn't say it right, I knew I was going to be dead. So that was at that time. And this is after you were born. We're at the second apartment. Okay, That's. People are watching us. All that. And that's when he starts having me go out and collect funds. I'm soliciting funds for the Multiple Sclerosis Society, which is why I think, and praise God to this day, that I have multiple sclerosis. Because, Lord, if you want to curse me, I, I don't really care. I just think it's adorably ironic because that was Fred's choice. And then I got Ms. Later in life.

[A]

They don't know this. So if I'm, I'm remembering it correctly, he had you go out and you would go out and collect door to door collections for the Multiple Sclerosis Foundation.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Because at that time you could still do that. I even did that when I was a kid, door to door things. And then. Okay, so he, he's got you out. You're collecting for fake charities because the council and all this kind of stuff. I'm sorry that I'm laughing. I'm not trying to laugh at your trauma, mom. I'm just like, I, I, I love that. It's just so fucking unbelievable. I mean, it, it is believable because I know it's real, but I'm just like, are you serious, guy?

[C]

So, okay, yeah, you should have went into the novel writing business.

[A]

He's just so much wasted talent in storytelling. Okay, so you're in Washington now. The council's coming after you.

[C]

No, they weren't coming after me. They're just always watching.

[A]

They're just watching.

[C]

Yeah. In case I step out of line. And to perfect, like protect Fred, because he's one of the elites, you know, the guys that they're really backing, they're really proud of. He's up and coming. I guess that would be the best way to describe it.

[A]

So he's in full blown ninja at this point. We're in ninja territory. You're in weapons training still, or did you learn enough where he was like, oh, no.

[C]

Weapons training was always ongoing.

[A]

Did you have to do weapons training when you were pregnant?

[C]

I did weapons training before I was pregnant. I did, yeah. I actually did a lot of weapons training. I was still collecting and I had to train while I Was pregnant.

[A]

And you said he would have you out pretty much all day collecting.

[C]

Yeah, I'd have to leave. I'd have to get up, get ready, go. At one point, he had a job with this place called Capitol Moss, like in mildew control in Olympia, Washington, which is where we're living at the time. And then, yeah, I'd have to get up. We went to thrift shops and. And stuff, trying to look for business attire.

[A]

So you could look the part.

[C]

Yeah, so I could look the part. Fantastic. You know, the funny thing is about it, I remember. I'm just going to say this for a personal little digit. If I was running that show, we wouldn't have been using a canning jar.

[A]

You were using a canning jar. You didn't even have one of the old metal coffee tins with the slit in the top. Gosh. Like a mason jar. So everyone can see how much you had collected. They're way less to give you. They're way less likely to give you money when they can see that.

[C]

Not with an appropriate handmade label taped to it. So. Okay. Oh, Jesus. I just want to say out there in the land of haha dum dum, that if Fred was a little bit smarter about making a scam official, he would have went to a print shop.

[A]

Yeah, well, apparently his genius level only extended to. Only extended to abusive spy work, ninja abuse and accumulation. Well, you can't be talented at everything, can we?

[C]

Sorry, I shouldn't dig on the guy.

[A]

Oh, really? Because, I don't know, after this conversation, I'm feeling you're allowed to, but. Okay, all right, the next question they have is, you said Fred broke some of your bones. Can you talk about that?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You remember the first time that it happened?

[C]

Yeah, actually, Fred only broke one of my bones, in my foot. This was, I don't know, maybe our third or fourth place in Olympia at that time. We'd been through a lot. I can envision, like, six different places we live, some that we stayed at temporarily.

[A]

Can I ask how he would get places to live? Like, were you guys staying with other people or was he acquiring apartments?

[C]

There was only one time that we stayed with someone. Oh, wait, I'm sorry, too.

[A]

You stayed with a church group for a while, right?

[C]

Yeah. That was before you were born. Best time of my life. I met the most amazing Christian people. It was something called, like, agape Love or something like that. It was a downtown. Just this old shop turned into a church. And downtown Olympia, just cutest bug on a rug. Wonderful people. Great. You Know, first time I really felt like, hey, there's actually a God here. I was all the way out there, I was with him. I was getting drawn in again. And Fred was, you know, went along with it for a while.

[A]

He went along with the Christianity. That makes sense because then he can con everybody and do ninja stuff for the Lord.

[C]

Yeah. From that group, we met a group of fellas that lived together in a house and they let us stay with them. They had a bungalow, I guess you'd call it. It was probably a four bedroom bungalow.

[A]

When you lived with other people, did he beat you then?

[C]

No, not, not beat me then because he was trying to, you know, trying to look hard like he was a Christian. So I actually had. I was actually starting to feel some relief and stuff. And I was hoping that things would stay like it was real for Fred.

[A]

Like that he had changed.

[C]

Yeah. But then in our private rooms in the evening, you could tell that it. It wasn't. He'd talked badly of them and how stupid they were, all that. So I'm like, shoot, you know, I can't get on board with these guys either because they're too nice. And I don't want Fred to hurt him if I try to get away.

[A]

To lean into him or something.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't want him, you know, to lean into them. So I never. I just. I just let Fred do what Fred.

[A]

Does about how he got places.

[C]

Yeah. Okay, so there, there was this one. And then after a while we. We had an apartment for a bit and ended up needing a place temporarily. One of the guys that was in that church group, he was the nicest man. His name was D. Lovely human. Totally sold out for God. He's just out there praying. I'd see him praying. He's on his knees on the living room floor when we'd wake up, just really crying, praying. He was like a zealot is what he reminded me of. Like a live zealot. Just. Just sweetheart of a guy. Anyways, we stayed with him for a bit and then of course we moved on to this other place. And then after that place is when this S girl came from Michigan. She met us at this little house thing that we were living in.

[A]

Okay, so we're going back to the question. You said that Fred broke some of your bones. You said he only broke one bone and it was your foot. Can you tell me about that?

[C]

Yeah, we were out. We lived in this very small trailer park and there was some open lots where trailers weren't parked at that time for Rentals. So there was this extra land. We're training. We're doing kung fu sword, we're doing staff. We're breaking bricks that day.

[A]

Typical ninja stuff.

[C]

Yeah. And I got through the sword part and I got through. I broke a brick, you know, it wasn't a brick, by the way. It was a sidewalk chunk.

[A]

Oh, like a concrete.

[C]

Yeah, five inches thick concrete block that I punched through and broke. And it was pretty cool. I was impressed. But anyways, we're going through the staff training. And staff training was hard for me because I just wasn't coordinated enough for the hand spins and the grabbing. So anyways, he'd have me do the combat maneuvers, defensive maneuvers, stuff like that. And I just wasn't getting it on this one particular day. And he got angry at me and he took and rolled that staff up and hit it like a baseball bat down on the top of my foot and broke this, like, big bone right on the top bone, you know, of this foot.

[A]

Like the one that connects to your toe.

[C]

Yeah, it was that big bone. And, you know, there's still a divot there. Actually, it never fully recovered.

[A]

Did you go to the hospital? Anything? No. So you just had to continue to do combat training with a broken foot?

[C]

Oh, yeah. And collecting and wearing high heels.

[A]

Fantastic.

[C]

Yeah, that hurt a lot. But, yeah, that's the only bone he ever broke.

[A]

I'm sorry. How old were you when that happened?

[C]

You weren't born and we were married, so I must have been 19 at that time.

[A]

So I was going to ask you about the. Because I do remember you talking to me it a bit when I was a kid. Are you comfortable telling me about the getting married thing? Because wasn't that a bad day?

[C]

Yeah, it was. It was a horrible day. I didn't want to get married. I was just too afraid to tell him. No. That was in Thurston County, Washington. We got married at the courthouse. You were in a stroller in the courtroom. And we got married because he wanted. I don't know, I guess I was just too afraid to say no. So we got married. You know, I know that sounds horrible, but.

[A]

Oh, it's okay.

[C]

Yeah, I. We get married. I don't know what you mean about the horrible day part of it. I guess the horrible day part for me was that I knew I didn't want to marry him.

[A]

I feel if. If I remember correctly, I think you were talking about. I can't remember if he had beat you up the night before or it was the wedding day or something. But you Were talking about feeling like you were going in there kicking and screaming or something is how you would put it when I was younger. Because you didn't want to get married, but he was basically like, no, we're getting married, and forced you to marry him.

[C]

Yeah. I guess the way I can explain that is those are probably my internal projections.

[A]

Okay, so he didn't actually drag you into the courtroom. Okay, so that's good. In my mind, I thought he actually drugged you in.

[C]

Now, he couldn't get away with that in front of a judge.

[A]

The next question is, how did he try to control you? I'm sorry again. It's so broad.

[C]

You know, the normal ways. I mean, if you look at it through the eggshell cycle program that every victim experiences, you have your eggshell moments, you have your blow up moments. Then you have your romanticizing moments. It's always this full cycle. He started that back in Flint, and he already had me fully engulfed.

[A]

Do you think that he stalked you like he did other people, as far as listening to them and different things?

[C]

He probably did, you know, knowing his moa. If he did, I wasn't aware of it.

[A]

I remember you telling me, and if you don't want this in here, that's fine. I'm just asking you, while I remember it, about how. How he had you reach out to other women for him. And did you have to follow other women, too, or just reach out to them to spook them on his behalf in a sense or.

[C]

Well, that. That was back in the day when they still had those payphones hanging around everywhere. So in that day, you could make collect calls. Well, there's this other thing that you could do. Say, I'd like to make a collect call and charge it to my home phone account. So he'd go into the phone book because they had those, like, hanging out. Right?

[A]

Right. The phone book was still attached.

[C]

Yeah. So he'd look up somebody's name and number, and we'd call and say, I'd like to make a call under my home phone with the address that we're reading out of this book. And then we'd go through that process to get whoever it was that he wanted on the phone. Then I would do some type of introductory verbiage or phrase, whatever it was, to make them think it was an actual business or an important legitimate call and get the other party on the line so that he could get on the phone and he could go on there and do his intimidation like, I know where you are, you know, and.

[A]

He was Doing this to other women or.

[C]

Yeah, the women of his past.

[A]

Okay. Yeah. So still reaching out, even though they're not talking to him.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

He's letting them know that he knows where they are.

[C]

Correct.

[A]

Here we go on. Oh, I don't know if you want to do this one or not. On one occasion, Fred told you to kill yourself. Will you tell us that story?

[C]

Yeah. It was just kind of understood that whatever that his command was is what I was supposed to be doing. That was the general understanding. So. Boy, I don't remember what stirred him up that day. But that day, there was apparently, like, a loyalty issue in my regard. I really don't remember what it was. I guess I didn't collect enough funds. I didn't make the right meal. I don't remember what triggered it. I just remember that something was triggered in him, and he was angry at me. We were in this trailer that we had at the dining room table, and at that time, I was pregnant.

[A]

Oh, you were pregnant with me.

[C]

I was pregnant. I was pregnant because that's the same house that we lived in. When he had punched me in the stomach, I was about six months along. At that point, I lose track of my timeframes with houses. So I'm sorry. I'm just gonna put that out there right now.

[A]

No, that's okay. Okay. I can tell you that trauma does not help with memory, so that's okay. Don't feel bad about that.

[C]

All right? I do know this. The sword thing, I know that it was in that house because I was pregnant. And I remember the day that he punched me in the stomach, and I was so scared for you. He was upset with me that day, and honestly, I think it started about a grocery trip. But I remember he had slapped me, and I was bleeding out of my nose and my mouth. And when you got slapped by Fred, you couldn't show anything. You're not supposed to cry. You're not supposed to bleed. You're not supposed to react. You're supposed to just sit there and finish listening to the lesson that he's telling you. So I'm sitting there, and I've got blood running down my face and everything, and I can't help but cry. And he tells me, go get cleaned up. Go get out of my face. Go get cleaned up. All right? And went back in. And by the time I got done and cleaned up or whatever, he had already decided what he was gonna do. So he tells me. Basically, he's giving this story to me about how he didn't Think I was gonna make it. You know, there's no way I could be as loyal to him and love him the way that he needs to be loved or stuff like this. And if I really mean it and I was really sorry or whatever, then I would find a way to show him, you know, his way. That day was the day that he had me kneel down on the floor facing the wall. I was about six feet away from the wall of our. Well, there's like an open dining room, living room situation. So I'm kind of right in the middle on my knees. And he gets up and he handed me a sword that was hanging on the wall. Some of the equipment that he had bought with the money I collected because he wanted this huge equipment rack, and he had them all nailed up on the walls. So he gets the sword out, and he keeps saying things along the line of. And I say this because I can't remember the exact words. So along the lines of, I don't believe you love me. If you really love me, then prove it. You need to show me right now that you're willing to die for me. You know, that kind of thing. That's the understanding. And I'm like, oh, God, here we go. So I'm on the ground, and I'm just kind of like, look, we don't have to do this, man. I do love you. I do. I do. I love you. I love you. And he's like, I don't believe it. He's like, just keep pushing. So I start pushing this sword.

[A]

I'm sorry. You're okay. Do you need a break?

[C]

No. So I start pushing the sword towards my belly. One hand on the handle, one hand up higher. It's not in the scabbard. It's past the scabbard. Because I had to hold it down with the hook of my thumb to make sure that it stayed down. So I'm going through that, and it starts going into my skin and cutting. And he let it carry on. And I stopped. And I looked up at him and I just took this deep breath, and I was ready. And he's like, stop. And it just shocked me. So I stopped. You know, at that point, I already had a half inch of blade in my gut. And I was very confused. I didn't know if I could believe him. I didn't know what to think. I didn't know. I thought that if I stop, I'm going to be a coward and he's going to beat me or kill me anyways. Because if I don't do this, you know, but for whatever reason, he lets me stop. And so then of course, after we're talking, you know, this thorough talking, I gotta go and clean up and clean the blood off my stomach and just thank God that you and I are still alive.

[A]

Jesus. I'm so sorry, Mom.

[C]

And it's, it's a moment. I just, I can't believe I ever got out of all the things that I've done, you know? That's why if somebody says, like, let's get hypnotized, I'm like, not on the last day of my life. Because one of the things that I've learned since I've been with Fred is to guard my mind and my heart. And I thought back to that. I remember many years thinking back to it. How can I get to that point with a baby in my belly to just sit there?

[A]

Well, I think you knew that if you didn't, he was gonna do something anyways. So I think it was actually safer for you to do it than to allow him to.

[C]

Yeah. Knowing, knowing him, the only reason that he didn't is because he couldn't figure out how to clean me up. You know, he didn't have a body dispersal or disposal plan. He always just was like, I'm gonna use force. You know, he never talk to me about disposing of bodies, thank goodness. Which I guess is the only reason I thought, well, maybe he won't kill me, you know, maybe he won't kill anyone.

[A]

Did you, did you really think he wouldn't kill someone?

[C]

I guess I always knew that he was capable. I always believed that he was capable. Some of those things, I guess you try not to think about it or you just don't, you know. Plus, he had all this stuff going on in the background while I was actually living with him that people say, oh, you lived with him. You didn't know? Well, you're right. You know, I only knew what he told me. That's all I knew.

[A]

Well, I think, yeah, at that point, I think he had taken away your will to really think for yourself. I think he still continues to do that. He's just, there's a greater depth between us and him now. So now he just does it through empathy, people's empathy. Back then, he did it through fear. Now he's using empathy. Just a new tactic. I, I, I think it's important, mom, because people need to understand what happens when, when he's out.

[C]

Well, he's gonna go back and continue.

[A]

To do it a hundred percent. He's still doing it on a different scale. The only difference is he doesn't have a quiet, secure living room to torture people. And so now he just rages in different ways.

[C]

Yeah. Somebody's gonna go through this again.

[A]

A hundred percent. Many other. Many other somebodies. A hundred percent. Yeah. I. I think it. That's. Actually, can we stop here tonight? You've been through a lot and you've shared a lot, and we're gonna take a break. Okay. Yeah, let's do it. So. So you can get a full night of rest and. And we'll take a break and we'll finish the rest later. I love you. We want to thank G for sharing her story with us. And we want to thank Laina for all of her hard work in making that possible. We appreciate them both so much. We thank them for being so brave.

[B]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[A]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com. murdership Sheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[A]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.