The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: A Wife’s Story: Part Two

Summary

Podcast Summary:

Murder Sheet — "The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: A Wife’s Story, Part Two"

Release Date: October 16, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (A), Kevin Greenlee (B)
Guests: "G" (ex-wife of Temujin Kensu, read by her daughter Lena), Lena
Episode Theme:
A raw, illuminating conversation with "G", the ex-wife of Temujin Kensu (aka Fred Freeman), read by her daughter Lena. Through "G’s" personal account, the episode explores abuse, control, and survival, while raising hard questions about Kensu’s character, the persistent trauma of his victims, and the ongoing claims of his innocence in the murder of Scott Macklem.

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the deeply personal testimony of "G," Temujin Kensu’s ex-wife, as read by their daughter Lena. The goal: to bring forth the lived experiences and abuses suffered by "G" during her marriage, providing context for claims about Kensu’s behavior, and contributing depth to the broader conversation around his conviction and the legitimacy of innocence narratives.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Methodology & Sensitivity (03:02–04:31)

• The hosts explain how the episode was crafted to honor "G’s" privacy and trauma. Lena interviews her mother with host-supplied questions, records the conversation, and reads both sides for the podcast to maintain safety and comfort for "G".
  • “We took all of these steps because we wish to be a trauma informed show and not re-traumatize victims.” (03:01, B)

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2. Control, Surveillance & Abuse (05:41–08:45)

• "G" recalls Kensu’s manipulation tactics, from eavesdropping on her conversations to instilling fear through claims of omnipresence (“ninja” mythology).
  • He overheard her conversations through old house vents and used this to intimidate and prevent her from leaving:
    • “You know, he told me that I wasn't going anywhere. He was going to settle it with my mom or whatever.” (06:25, D)
• Kensu’s focus was on creating an environment of constant surveillance and control—psychological brainwashing to make "G" feel perpetually monitored.

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3. Ninja Mythology, Weapon Use & “Training” (09:10–16:31)

• Kensu, obsessed with martial arts, subjected "G" to bizarre “ninja training”—from running obstacle courses in parks to being shot at with a pellet gun for “dodging practice.”
  • “He takes me outside and he's like, all right, here's how this is going to go down... he starts shooting at me. And I do know that I got hit. I remember having pain and marks from being hit a few times.” (15:29–16:31, D)
• Despite their poverty, he constructed a world of control through imagination, violence, and intimidation, including fake stories of “ninjas” surveilling her.

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4. Isolation, Additional Victims, and Cycles of Abuse (17:15–24:47)

• "G" was forced to sever contact with friends and family, with Kensu orchestrating harassment, collecting money under fraudulent pretenses, and dragging other women into his web.
  • Kensu’s method included having his partners call and harass others or pretend to be military personnel to spread his lies.
  • Stories intersect with those of other victims, including Elle—another young woman drawn from out-of-state, who suffered severe physical abuse before eventually escaping:
    • “I know that Kay and some other people were present when he beat her up and threw her her full body onto a car... she was smaller than me.” (32:42, D)

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5. Motherhood, Jealousy, and Child Abuse (33:31–38:46)

• The only period "G" recalls Kensu behaving like a doting father was the first three days of their daughter’s life, after which he exhibited jealousy and violence towards their baby:
  • “He basically told me, nobody's going to be more important than me. I don't give a damn about this kid. You're mine. If she's here or not, it doesn't matter.” (34:32, D)
  • He frequently targeted their infant, refusing to allow "G" to comfort her, striking her as a baby, and using suffocating techniques to stop her crying.

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6. Fraud, Criminal Background, and Pathological Lying (24:47–29:46)

• Kensu has a documented history of fraud, including check kiting and impersonation.
  • “He did commit actual bank fraud, correct? He did, yes. In Washington.” (28:10–28:13, D)
• Lies were central to his persona—financial, personal, and relational.

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7. Personality: Charm, Ego, and Violence (29:52–31:09)

• Described as self-absorbed, egotistical, and controlling, with moments of apparent sentimentality.
• He joined a band and sought admiration, but underneath was manipulative and menacing.

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8. Leaving & Surviving (38:46–42:35)

• "G" details her escape, spurred by a vision of Jesus, which gave her the resolve to flee despite guilt and fear for her daughter:
  • “I'm walking... I see this vision of Jesus... he’s illuminating and he’s very, very large... he's telling me like, 'Go, Gail, just go.'” (40:49–41:47, D)
• She left her child behind temporarily, later regaining custody after a painful, year-long separation.

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9. Ongoing Harassment and Lingering Fear (43:32–49:27)

• Even post-incarceration, Kensu continued to harass "G" and Lena via letters, third parties, and even prison phone calls years into his sentence.
  • "He’s on a five to ten year recycling program constantly. It’s ridiculous.” (49:27, D)

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10. Media Narratives, Rehabilitation, and Danger (49:35–54:33)

• "G" notes her frustration at the media portraying Kensu as "a good guy" and victim of injustice, when the truth—as experienced by his survivors—is much darker:
  • "This man does not deserve any help from proving innocence … if he gets out, it’ll go on, except it’ll be in person." (50:02–50:25, D)
• She is unequivocal: Kensu remains highly dangerous, and his release would put victims and new potential victims at risk.

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11. Transformation: Victim to Advocate (54:33–58:15)

• "G" became a victims’ advocate, using her experiences to guide and support others through trauma and the justice system:
  • “God’s just always given me a good gut and he’s taken my life experiences ... and built some strengths as a survivor.” (54:58, D)
  • Empathy from her abuse informed her approach in preparing other victims for trial.

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12. Forgiveness & Closure (58:27–60:58)

• Asked what she would say to Kensu if safe, "G" would recite the Ten Commandments and wish him healing—not out of reconciliation, but as a wish no one need live in such misery.
• Lena and "G" discuss the possibility of spiritual redemption, voicing a hope to see a healed version of the man in the afterlife.

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13. Closing Messages (61:03–62:48)

• "G" thanks the hosts and other survivors for seeking and revealing the truth, expressing hope that sharing her story will help others. Special thanks are given to Crystal, another victim who testified at Kensu’s commutation hearing.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Control and Surveillance:
  “He told me that I wasn’t going anywhere. He was going to settle it with my mom or whatever.” (06:25, D)
• On “Ninja” Brainwashing:
  “He hears it when he’s in the bathtub... part of his introductory brainwashing, fear training... make me think that I’m never gonna be able to get away.” (07:56, D)
• On the Extent of Kensu’s Abuse:
  “He takes me outside and... he starts shooting at me... I got hit. I remember having pain and marks from being hit a few times.” (15:29–16:31, D)
• On What Kept her with Kensu:
  “I couldn’t leave because I didn’t know what would happen to Lena... I didn’t know what to do.” (40:00–40:49, D)
• On Getting her Child Back:
  “The day I left, you were nine months old. The day I got you back, you were a year and nine months old. So I missed out on more than a year of your life.” (42:35, D)
• On Ongoing Danger:
  “If he gets out, it will go on, except it’ll be in person.” (50:25, D)
• On Kensu’s Personality:
  “He’s very egotistical, ridiculously so. And controlling.” (30:36, D)
• On Forgiveness:
  “If he doesn’t find God, then... he’s burning... I never want to see him. Nothing. But I do wish that he could be healed and fixed and normal.” (58:57–59:19, D)
• On Victims Supporting Each Other:
  “There was a connection between the victims that day at the hearing, all of us. And there was this huge disconnection... But I’d just like to say thank you, Crystal. Thank you to your family for being that way with Laina and I that day. I wish them well and so much in healing.” (62:01–62:48, D)

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Important Timestamps

• 03:02–04:31 – Methodology & trauma-informed approach
• 05:41–08:45 – Surveillance, intimidation, and early abuse
• 09:10–16:31 – “Ninja” training, pellet gun, and martial arts
• 24:47–29:46 – Kensu’s criminal background and fraud
• 33:31–38:46 – Violence against their baby, isolation as a mother
• 38:46–42:35 – “G’s” escape and spiritual turning point
• 43:32–49:27 – Post-escape harassment and legal system’s failures
• 49:35–54:33 – Media portrayal; debate about innocence
• 54:33–58:15 – Being a victims’ advocate and healing
• 58:27–60:58 – On forgiveness and closure
• 61:03–62:48 – Direct messages to hosts, other survivors

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Final Reflections & Tone

The episode is an unflinching first-person testimony of manipulation, violence, and the ripple effects of trauma. Through Lena’s warm and sometimes darkly humorous narration, and with empathic, probing questions from the hosts, "G’s" story is both heartbreaking and hopeful. It undercuts common innocence narratives about Kensu with chilling details, but ultimately stands as an example of resilience, the importance of listening to victims, and the power of speaking one’s truth.

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For listeners seeking a deep, human look behind the headlines and legal debates, this episode is essential—not just for understanding this case, but for appreciating the magnitude of harm abusers can cause, and the long road to recovery their victims travel.

Transcript

[A]

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[C]

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[B]

This episode includes profanity as well as discussion of murder, rape, suicide, domestic abuse, animal abuse, child abuse, and the abuse of an infant.

[A]

This is the second part of a conversation with a woman we call G, who was once married to Temujin Kenzu, a man also known as Fred Freeman. G is also the mother of Kenzou's daughter Lena, who has previously shared her experiences on the program.

[B]

In case you have not heard the first part, we want to discuss how these episodes were created. G wanted to share her highly personal story with us all, but she preferred for her voice not to be heard on the podcast. So Lena recorded a couple of conversations she and her mother had about Kinzu. During those talks, Lena asked her mother some questions we provided. Lena shared the recordings with us, and we prepared a transcript of them. We edited a few things for clarity or for privacy. For instance, we removed discussions involving sexual abuse that she suffered at the hands of Temujin Kinzu. We then sent the transcripts to Lena and her mother for them to review. We took all of these steps because we wish to be a trauma informed show and not re. Traumatize victims.

[A]

We realized. This is where I start, right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We realized it would be more meaningful for all of us if Lena would be able to record with us and read her own mother's words. We were so delighted when she agreed to do that.

[B]

So in what you're about to hear, Anya will be reading Lena's part of the original conversation. Lena would be reading the words of her mother. With all of that said, let's get to the interview.

[A]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist, and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[B]

I'm an attorney.

[A]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[A]

We're the Murder Sheet.

[B]

And this is the murder of Scott Macklem. The Guilt of Temujin Kinzu, A Wife Story, Part two. It.

[A]

Okay, so you had said that you had made some plans to leave and somehow Fred had spied on you and heard about that. Can you tell me about that?

[D]

Yeah. Obviously at that point, I was fearful enough that I tried to reach out to my family, the two, you know, my mom and my sister. My sister would come over and visit occasionally back then. So she. She had met Fred, and so mom was talking to her about how things were going in the house, which I'm sure she was very uncomfortable with because Fred already had control of the house. So I had had some conversations with them. And he confronted me about the conversation and said that he heard it while he was taking a bath, which makes sense because the bathroom was centrally located. There was a bedroom on the opposite wall of each. One side of the wall, there's a kitchen covered, you know, sink on the opposite wall. So the bathroom was encapsulated. The house is older. It's a FL house back then. So the only thing I can think of is he must have heard it through the vents because it had these big grates that were like 12 by 14 inches or something. The metal would have been like five layers of white paint from rentals being repainted. So that was very intimidating. It was pretty clear that he was able to hear everything that he needed to hear, and that was very scary. You know, he told me that I wasn't going anywhere. He was going to settle it with my mom or whatever. So when we exit, you know, to the place where he took me on the roof, there's this time lapse, because it was like, it could have been evening or it could have been a day or two after. I'm not really sure.

[A]

From the time that you spoke to your mom to him at the time.

[D]

He confronted me, I don't think it was the exact same night that we were sitting on the rooftop for some reason. I just don't think it was. That would point out things, that things started escalating through the days. So when my mom finally made it, like, I. I guess I'm proposing, I can't prove, but maybe my mom had a conversation that I didn't hear where she's like, tonight you need to get out. So that would have been in the night that we went over on the roof, and he's like, oh, she's going to move my stuff out. You know, we'll see about that. That's how that went down.

[A]

So. So pretty early on, then, he was listening to conversations so that he could then come back and use it against you. That confirms some of the stuff that Crystal talked about, that he was somehow listening in on people's stuff.

[D]

Yeah, well, it kind of goes into the whole making them fearful so they'll believe the ninja thing that, you know, people are listening to you. Like, he had at that point, told me about that. So he hears it when he's in the bathtub. But in logic, I can see how that would have been part of his introductory brainwashing, fear training, you know, make me think that I'm never gonna be able to get away or speak ill of him or make A plan, because he'll be able to find everything out. Because if he doesn't find it out through intimidating people that are around you, he'll do. You know, whatever he did here.

[A]

Do you think that he was using recording devices or anything like that?

[D]

He didn't have two pennies to rub together. No. So I don't believe he did at that time.

[A]

More just lurking around, waiting to catch the right conversation so that then he can use the information.

[D]

Yeah. Like, twist it up, wrap it around, make this narrative bring it back to you, make you feel like you're busted or whatever. Like, oh, maybe I do remember. Oh, what? Sorry, I ate two spoonful of mayo. Oh, how do you know? Smack. Well, wait, how'd you know that? Well, I measured the mayo. You know, ninjas came in last night and they measured everything. You know, nobody gets away.

[A]

Dark humor.

[D]

Yeah, it is. I know that part's not true, but. Yeah.

[A]

So I actually want to go back to one of the questions. So we stopped with Fred telling you to kill yourself. So I. I think that we had touched on. Did he talk about ninja stuff with you? I mean, at this point, obviously, with the whole sword thing and all of that, you're pretty deep into the ninja life.

[D]

Yeah, I was trying to get my brownie badge, so.

[A]

But can you. Can you give me an introductory into starting. When did he start bringing up the ninja stuff? Was that almost immediately? Was that.

[D]

That's where we were living when. When C. And my mom tried to move him out.

[A]

So it was right when he got out of jail. Well. And you had seen him doing martial arts and all that kind of stuff?

[D]

Yeah, I don't know where he kept his equipment. I don't remember if they were kept at our house or if he had it somewhere else. I don't remember. But what I do know is because when we got him out of jail, I don't remember the products. You know, I couldn't tell you what he wore anything.

[A]

What looks like a lot of leather and jeans back then, but.

[D]

And darkness.

[A]

Yeah, darkness.

[D]

And winter tassels on the coats.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. He did love fringe jackets. I've seen a lot of pictures with fringe jackets, which was insane to me that they allowed that in prison, but. Okay, the next question is, did Fred have guns?

[D]

The only gun I remember him having, honestly, was the pellet gun, where he trained me how to outrun the pellet gun.

[A]

So he did have a gun, but it was a pellet gun.

[D]

And that was in Olympia, Washington, when we lived in a basement Apartment.

[A]

So can you actually tell me about the pellet gun training, if that's okay? I think that it would help because a lot of the narrative that is pushed is that the guns weren't his thing.

[B]

But.

[A]

But I know from stories you shared in my childhood, shooting you with a gun is actually very much his thing. Shooting at you, at least with a gun, was something he had already been doing for years before actually physically shooting somebody. Can you kind of break that down for me?

[D]

Yeah, that was at the apartment where I used to have to announce myself to come in and collect money. You know, things like that. I was heavy into training. He's heavy into brainwashing about the ninjas watching me. And that's where he's dating that gal that confronts me in the grocery store. I have to spend nights in the park with you on the swing set.

[A]

We actually haven't brought that up. I. I would like to come back to that, if that's okay.

[D]

Yeah, well, I. I mean, I can kind of COVID it in just a couple phrases because I'm not scarred from it. It was actually peace and quiet with you. I mean. Yeah, she's coming into town, remember? I have to leave because she's coming into town for a visit.

[A]

I do remember you saying you had to leave. They don't know, so that's why I'm having you walk through it.

[D]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So anyhow, she's. She's coming into town, I have to leave and I have to take you with me. You're about four, five, I don't know, six months old, somewhere to that degree. Small enough for me to carry you in a bundle and keep you with me.

[A]

And I was born in January, so let's reiterate that. We're talking about like April, June.

[D]

Yeah. It is not cold weather. It was, thank goodness. It was like morning.

[A]

Well, I mean, it's Washington, everything's cold. But yeah, it rains a lot. I'll. I'll put it that way. Rainy weather with a, you know, four month old baby outside at night.

[D]

I can't guarantee it was raining. I think we might have gotten lucky. But that was one of the two weeks maybe of summer that it didn't rain. Cumulative days. I'm not even joking. So anyways, I went to the park. It's the only place that I could think to go. I didn't have money or nothing. I just had your diaper bag. And me and you and we go to the park and hung out until it was daylight. I came back, knocked on the Door, went back in. In the house, there's pizza, beers, you know, things off, chiseled, tossed around, everything there's. And it's empty. He's not there. So I just went in. I don't know if I should like, touch anything or not. I didn't quite know what to do. And then I don't remember what I did after that. I likely stayed inside and went into the bedroom with you, would be my guess.

[A]

When I was a kid and you were talking about, you know, obviously it was, if I remember correctly, a lot higher emotions. I was just finding out about Fred, but I remember you talking about how you didn't know if he was watching or not because. Am I right?

[D]

Yeah, because he told me, if you come within X amount of feet from this house, you're gonna have some huge problems. Cause you're not to be around here. And if you are, I'm gonna know. So that's why it's just like, oh, okay, yeah, I'll hang out at the park until daylight. You know, that's just how it was. You have to understand that's just how it was. That's all I can say about that. And if you didn't live it, you can't understand how that dynamic goes.

[A]

Always wondering if he's watching somewhere or somebody's watching or there's a council involved now that even though you don't see them, he's feeding information to you about stuff.

[D]

Yeah, I remember a couple of times too. He'd. Oh, wait, do you see that? Yeah, there's a turtle over there. Anyway, I. I gotta test my vision. So he wants to test my vision and. Yeah, that's what I think. So anyways, I do remember one time he told me that somebody had been like. Was visible if I looked up on the roof or something, but the guy is on the roof and I didn't look quick enough, so I didn't see it. And he's like, oh, what you. What are you doing? You know, like he's not pleased because I didn't see the ninja on the roof because it's not there. But I do remember him doing that kind of thing. So, yeah, it's interesting to hear myself talk this back because it's like I'm getting to see his training plan. His brainwashing plan is everything again, through different eyes because I'm more mature, spiritually sound and things like that now. So I can look at it the same way I did when I worked with victims rights, because I have to lay it out mathematically like, let's get the truth out there.

[A]

So can you tell me about the pellet gun?

[D]

Yeah. So both things happen, just not consecutively. I don't know where he got the gun from. I don't know nothing about that. But he had a pellet gun. It was about the size of what's commonly known as a sig SAR P226. It looked to be about good size. It's a pellet gun. I don't remember if he taught me how to shoot it or whatever, but there's an afternoon where he wanted me to practice being able to dodge things that are being thrown. And thank goodness he never used a throwing star on me. But he's got this pellet gun, which would actually be better than a throwing star. So he takes me outside and he's like, all right, here's how this is going to go down. I mean, the general idea, like, I can't remember word for word, don't ask me, but that's not going to happen.

[A]

It's okay. It's trauma, Mom. It's okay. Nobody expects you to remember verbatim.

[D]

So he's like, yeah, okay, okay. So I want you to take off. And there's this alleyway behind this row of houses that ran back through their garage. Like, you can go and pull into their garage. And there's this house on the corner, really nice place. And then there's this driveway. So mind you, I'm like 17, 18, and I'm tiny. And it's holly hedges that were there. I'm not even joking. They were like 6ft tall. You know, probably 6ft tall in general. And so he tells me, take off, and he starts shooting at me. And I don't remember how many times he hit me or missed me. I don't really know. But I do know that I got ahead a couple times and I had to dive through this holly bush, which I kind of laugh at, because the only thing I can laugh about with this situation is if you ever wondered if you can jump through a holly hedge. Yeah, you can.

[A]

Here's a powerful motivator.

[D]

Yeah, you can, but don't try it with bamboo, but you can do it with a holly hedge. And I do know that I got hit. I remember having pain and marks from being hit a few times. So, yeah, that happened.

[A]

I'm sorry, Mom. I think I've said that like 10,000 times. I'm sorry. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey, and we've even gotten some threats As a result, safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.

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[A]

Was that the only time that he made you run with the pellet gun rounds?

[D]

That's the only time I remember. I think I was the lab rat for that one.

[A]

I know you had talked about the other stuff. Did he set up obstacle courses or was was that he just go out in this park and I'm going to ask you to do stuff and you're going to run the gauntlet type of stuff?

[D]

I don't remember him setting up obstacle courses like he'd use what was around him, because if there's one thing the guy did, it was scour the dang city. Like he knew where all things were and I didn't.

[A]

Professional stalkers need to know all their surroundings.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, we go to parks and stuff, and he'd go to the playground areas. We'd do a lot of mock maneuvers, things like that. But a lot of the times it was parks. They're sturdy for impact, and that's what he was looking for.

[A]

The next question is, we hear that Fred was involved with a cult. Can you tell us about that? I don't know, other than I think that was after your time.

[D]

Yeah, it was after we were involved with the church for a little bit, but no cult. That wasn't in my era with him. That just wasn't in my time with him.

[A]

Just. Your time was more the Ninja and the Djinn and the Conspiracy of the Council, right?

[D]

Yeah. He wasn't passing out religious material yet. No, just training people.

[A]

Do you remember, like, did he have many students?

[D]

Well, he'd always find that if there was a dojo in town, he knew where that was. We'd always go and inspect them, tinker around with them, and. Yeah, like, another place he got us into these classes. I'm sure he was trying to overtake the damn gym or whatever, but it didn't work. And then we end up signing up for this ongoing spar in a private garage of a trainer. I don't know if that was the guy that owned the dojo or if it was someone else. I don't know how he paid for it. I have no idea. But all I know is that it's in this garage and there's eight of us standing around. Men, teens. They'd put on, like, they had good padding and everything. We'd spar. And then I remember the first time I knocked out a man. I did it with a backward right kick, and I knock him out, which is good because he got me a couple times first. But honestly, you know, at that point, I did like martial arts. I still martial arts, don't get me wrong. It's a fantastic tool to have. I just never wanted it. And now I get it. And every time I think to myself, it's like, oh, okay, I guess. Thanks, Frederick Thomas Freeman, for teaching me how to physically defend myself should ever I need to use those skills. But other than that, you can cram the whole thing where the sun don't shine, because I never asked for it, and I didn't Want it?

[A]

It's really sad you learned all that and couldn't use it on him. That makes me sad for you. Did. Did Fred have a history of spying on people or stalking them? And what were some of his techniques?

[D]

I don't know the techniques, but, yeah, I do know that he had fallouts with people that he was friends with when I first met him. Like, they'd have falling outs at times. I remember Fred saying things like he had to go over and talk to K, stuff like that. And then K would stop coming around for a while, so. So does D. I never knew why until later. Like, I learned the story of how he went back, broke into K's house with his ninja outfit. With the sword. Yeah, he went into battle mode. He was gonna kill him.

[A]

And that's one of the guys he was training at one point, right?

[D]

Yeah, yeah. You remember how police used to carry those, like, sticks with the handle on it?

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[D]

I remember them training with those by watching them and watching Kay progress. But Kay's a little heavier, so it took him longer.

[A]

So he had a falling out with him, and he thought the way to deal with that was to break into his house.

[D]

Yeah, I didn't know that he did that initially. I really did not. All I knew is that he wasn't around. And, you know, I keep looking off to the side, but. Oh, sorry. Yeah.

[A]

Are you looking for turtles? It's okay. It's okay, Mom. You can look at anything you want when you're talking about this.

[D]

Yeah, sorry.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But the friends weren't around anymore, so I know there's falling out. And by the way, you know, I'm not allowed to hang out with my friends.

[A]

Well, and also, I know you would. And I think you explained the phone book stuff where you would have to call and harass women for him. So that goes in with the harassment stuff that they were talking about. I'm pretty sure we already covered that.

[D]

Did I tell you about the time he had me get him to set that collect call up? Then he pretended that he was in the military. He pretended he was one of Fred Freeman's supervisors. So anyways, it's like Fred got a report that he was a father or whatever, and he claims, oh, Fred's had a vasectomy. There's no way he's never had a child. You're wrong. Like, he even pretended and changed his voice. He pretended that he was the sergeant, like, drill sergeant or whatever it was that would answer a call like that.

[A]

So that was probably one of my siblings. Oh, gosh.

[D]

And come to think of it, that's probably what gave him the idea, because we were in Washington with his buddy T, who's in the airborne Rangers in Fort Lewis, Washington. I bet you 10 bucks that's what inspired him to pretend he was in the military.

[A]

It's really interesting because when you had said that he likes to recycle victims, and I feel like the more that you talk, he also recycles techniques because he had Denise do stuff like that with me, which having her call the school and stuff, because you couldn't call from a prison to an elementary school. So he had another woman step in. Yeah. His methods were consistent over time. This one, I feel like is a loaded question. But how. How did Fred support himself?

[D]

Uh, I have no idea.

[A]

Just say you, mom.

[D]

Yeah, it was me, Nintendo and welfare, because I know we had food stamps, so we run welfare, and then I'm collecting.

[A]

Do you think other women were also giving him his money as well?

[D]

Well, I'm sure in retrospect, yes, of course. He had several nice little, you know, pockets probably going around so that he could roam. Back then, I just didn't really know because it didn't matter, because no matter what amount of money we had, I had absolutely zero control. Except occasionally, if I was sent to the store to pick things up and come back, and then that would be wrong. Which is what led to the day where he challenged my loyalty. The whole sword on the floor, I think, you know, I told you that yesterday, but I think that was about groceries. I don't remember. I just remember bleeding at the table, and he slaps me so hard I have to wait. And then later getting the second treatment because he's not satisfied with his wrath.

[A]

What do you know about Fred's background?

[D]

All I can tell you is he's a devil. I'm sorry, Lord. I didn't mean that. I can tell you is the prince of the world is in that man, and he lost. And I know it feels pretty good. You know, his. This isn't easy, but with every sentence, I know that healing is coming. I believe that we're going to get closure and we're going to have some scuffles.

[A]

Oh, yeah, he's going to implode.

[D]

Yeah, there'll be some pushback. But I'm so happy with the truth and seeing the intertwining of so many other victims. Truth, you know, they're seamless in so many regards. It's the same stupid wheel of misfortune, Just a different Person.

[A]

Yeah, it's just a different person getting the same thing. The idea that for me, what really hit me that day of the hearing were the stories that I had heard growing up and then listening to what Crystal was saying on that stand. Like you and Crystal knowing that you guys didn't know each other. But here's a woman who had a fraction of the same things that you did. And then here comes this other woman's testimony, Michelle's testimony, which is similar to the stuff that you went through. So it was like, here's these three women that I know don't know each other in that sense that all have a similar story. How can this have been an era where social media how could this have been in an era where social media doesn't exist? We're not calling each other and saying late on the phone together. So how would you guys have corroborated this at different times?

[D]

We didn't. Because we didn't even know each other existed.

[A]

No, that's what I mean. That's why I know it rings true. Because there's just no way. And that's something that he's been like, oh, it's a setup. It's a setup. And Crystal's a liar. But so how many other women that have had the same exact story have to be liars before we start saying that maybe he's the liar? How many more victims do you need to tell the same story over and over again of his cruelty? But yeah. Oh. What do you know about Fred's background?

[D]

I seen two pictures of past girlfriends. One was T. And the other one was S. I never met T. He told me that she died. I don't know if she did or not. I don't believe anything he says now.

[A]

Well, but anyway, maybe he killed her. I mean, we don't know.

[D]

Yeah. It was a picture of her I saw. She's in a chair, like a recliner or something like that. She's wearing blue jeans and she's wearing, I believe it was a cream colored white sweater, reddish purple, Vidora thing. She just had hair that was shoulder length, brown, quite brown. And he always spoke very well of her. That's why I believe that maybe she did die. Because he never tried to bring her up or call her or reach out anything that I knew. And after I had run these things through my head while I'm trying to recycle everything that happened to me during certain times, I was like, where's this girl? Where's that T girl? You know, where's she At. Maybe she's here, there. I don't know. He's having me call everybody, but he never had me call that one. So that's why I believe maybe she really did die. But if she did, she did when she was very young.

[A]

Okay. Do you know anything about his childhood?

[D]

The things I can recall is that he told me about his childhood with his mother and stepfather. Lived in Burton, Michigan. He did not get along well with his mother. She used to beat him with brushes. Hair brushes, rather. And he had a sister. He also had a grandma. He called her Grams. And he loved her.

[A]

Yeah. Then. Well, this is. I feel like this is such a broad question, but what lies has he told?

[D]

Well, his check fraud case that sent him to jail in Thurston county, he's definitely a fraudster. I mean, he makes me go out and collect for charities.

[A]

But he did commit actual bank fraud, correct?

[D]

He did, yes. In Washington.

[A]

So was he stealing checks or was it.

[D]

I think he opened an account and he just bounced and bounced and bounced. Him. So when we drove back, and this is during the time frame where we're living in the basement apartment, I have to do the whole pellet gun shooting test. So we leave that apartment, we're headed somewhere else, and I think we're head back to Michigan. Our windshield wiper blades were not working. And he's like, I think. I don't know. He was driving a Dodge Dart, so he has to stop and tie this string and we're driving down the road pulling the string on the windows.

[A]

Fantastic.

[D]

Yeah, I can't make that up.

[A]

Dude, I believe you. It's okay.

[D]

So anyways, here's a topic we haven't touched on on that trip back. Something happened in Nebraska.

[A]

Okay? So Fred gets arrested in Nebraska and gets sent back to Thurston county, gets expedite, extradited back to Washington for check fraud. Because he was writing bad checks, Correct?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So it wasn't just over withdrawing a bank account. He was physically writing bad checks.

[D]

Oh, he knew he was writing bad checks. It was a spending spree. He was having a good time.

[A]

Yeah. So he writes bad checks, you hitchhike back. And then I guess. Well, their question was about the lies.

[D]

So he just plays right into the lies, the deception, the fraud. Like, what doesn't he lie about?

[A]

It seems like everything.

[D]

I was gonna say everything. I don't really have a better answer.

[A]

Yeah, I would just say it's a broad. Everything, really.

[D]

I mean, I think that's the whole facade. Everything is a facade. So what does he lie about. Well, he lies about everything. He's playing multiple hands.

[A]

Yes. And just seeing wherever they land.

[D]

Yeah, he lies about everything, really.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. What was Fred's personality like?

[D]

Fred's personality was self absorbed. He likes showing off in front of the mirror, brushing his hair, wearing a towel around after his bath, playing drums and all this. Oh, by the way, he joined a band when he was in Washington. He got like a lead. The lead singer.

[A]

Oh, yeah. He had a band in prison too.

[D]

It cracks me up because the guy that was. He was married to this Asian chick who was drop dead gorgeous. I think that's why Fred got the job. It's probably why he even looked into it. He was probably trying to work on her, but he thought he could really sing. Like he's this great king of the Reich and all this kind of crap. But all he did was scream. That's what it sounded like to me when I heard it too. Like he has this falsetto scream because he ain't got no voice. I'm sorry, where were we going with that?

[A]

Oh, his personality.

[D]

Oh, his personality. Yes. He's very egotistical. Ridiculously so. And controlling. But, gosh, all right, I'll say something nice.

[A]

I don't know if that's necessary.

[D]

I mean, there's times when he would be sentimental and it would be okay.

[A]

Yeah, well, you know, every serial killer usually has a soft side. Can you tell us about helping women escape, Fred? Because I know you'd brought up Elle.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. There wasn't a way that I could help her escape. Like, I could comfort her and befriend her and try to do things to help ease the blow. Or I'd be warning her, like, hey, just don't. No, no, no, don't. Don't talk with that about him. Or if he says anything, just say it was me. Something like that. I just desperately wanted her to get away. Fresh out of the house of her mother and father.

[A]

And you said she was still in high school?

[D]

I'm pretty sure she was still in high school.

[A]

And this was a woman that he had come from Washington to Michigan. And so this is when you guys were back in Michigan?

[D]

Back in Michigan, like the very last time before I got away. She's already living there. And it was much to my surprise because I only saw her one time in my whole life. That's how I knew, because it was her parents house. Like her mother and father. She didn't seem bad. She hugged them goodbye and it was like, okay, I don't Know what the story was that they laid down for her parents? Because I wasn't able to be in any of those conversations. Like I don't even know who the hell she was. I have no idea why we're pulling up to this house and some chick and. And there's her stuff. We're saying goodbye and hugging. I'm just standing there. And then we get in a car with her. I don't know where they went. That's the last thing I remember. I never saw her before that. My guess is that they bought her, I don't know, a ticket. And next thing I see is she's in Flint, Michigan. Probably recycling my timeframes again. It can be messy. I understand that, I acknowledge that. But there's this sequence and there's instances and these things are true. I just can't lay it all out in proper timeframes.

[A]

Trauma does a number on the memory, so it's okay, Mom. How did she get away? Do you know?

[D]

No, I don't. I do not know. I know that Kay and some other people were present when he beat her up and threw her her full body onto a car. They told me about it. They watched him basically just smack the shit out of her and throw her onto the hood of a car. And she was tiny. She was smaller than me.

[A]

And you don't remember how she left?

[D]

I do not remember how she left, no. But I know that she got back to her parents. Because when the investigator came to talk to me to see if I'd be able to testify at this trial for the murder of Scott. I asked him about her and what happened to Elle. You know, he's the one that told me that she did go back to her parents. And if he told me more than that, I don't remember. All I just wanted to know was like, thank God she got back.

[A]

So let's go to. How did Fred feel about his new daughter? I'm assuming it's me, not one of his others.

[D]

Honestly, he showed that he was proud. He was happy he was in the delivery room. I mean, I don't remember a bad part about it until the day that you were three days old and we're both lying in the living room floor.

[A]

Wait, just hold on. Mom, I love you, but you're like, I don't remember a bad thing until you were three days old. So you had three good days and he loved his daughter. And then. Yeah, I'm sorry. I love you because I feel like I'm having an out of body memory experience. You're trying to be so positive, but you're like. You're like, he was proud, but to anybody who doesn't know what I know, they're gonna think he was just a loving, doting dad. And you're like. And then three days later, darkness came. Like, that's not a loving dad, Mom. That's just three good days. But I mean.

[D]

Okay, well, you asked how he felt about his daughter, and I said, well, for the first few days, he seemed proud.

[A]

Well, yeah, I think you said he seemed proud and kind of left out that it was the first few days, so it was okay.

[D]

Okay, yeah. I probably slept that night or something for the next couple days. I don't remember.

[A]

You might have gotten some sleep without any abuse for a moment. Okay, so we're three days in.

[D]

Yeah. So you're three days old. And anyway, we're lying on the floor and we're having some kind of, like, cozy time. You're on the floor with us. We're just laying there chatting, lounging on our sides kind of thing. We're talking, and somehow the topic came up of how much I love you. And I said, yeah, I just absolutely love her. I love her so much. And he didn't like that. And he basically told me, nobody's going to be more important than me. I don't give a damn about this kid. You're mine. If she's here or not, it doesn't matter. You know, that kind of situation. And he must have raised his voice quite a bit and got me crying at that point, because you became unsettled and started crying. And then I reached out to comfort you, and that enraged him. And that's when I don't remember if he continued to scold, but I do remember they hit you. All I know is that he took a couple fingers, like three fingers, and he slapped you on the forehead to shut you up. And he told me, don't touch her. And it was in that situation that I explained at that AG hearing, you know, and that was totally devastating because I felt like I could not protect you.

[A]

Will you tell me about him? Because he told me he was blowing in my mouth.

[D]

Yeah, he used to blow in your mouth to stop you from crying. He said that was some old Indian trick. And I mean, yeah, guess it was, but he used to do that excessively. I forgot about that.

[A]

He told me in prison, because he was trying to paint it as if he was helpful and that you just freaked out. I. I know. That's why I'm asking you to tell it, because I'd like to hear it from you.

[D]

I don't remember if it was that situation there that he was blowing, but he probably did. There was always something that he would always do to you if you were crying, like blowing your face and your mouth, and you'd be trying to catch your breath and to stop you from crying, but as it would do with any child. You know, there's this point where, yes, it might work with the first distraction, but when it doesn't, now the child's really crying because the child needs something and it's uncomfortable or whatever. But that didn't matter to him. His goal was just to make you shut up. And sometimes the breathing thing would go on way too long, and it would just get you into a mess of crying.

[A]

Do you know how old I was at the time?

[D]

That went on throughout the whole time that him and I were together after you were born. So it wasn't every single day, but. But actually, yeah, it was. It was the whole time that we were together. I know. And then the day that I left, I'm imagining it probably went on after that, too.

[A]

Yeah, I would imagine probably. So he told me that he was blowing in my mouth, and he said. And you started just. You know. But I was calming you down. But you were just gasping a little and all that. And I was thinking so. Gasping a little? Yeah, I was choking.

[D]

Yeah. You weren't getting any oxygen. You were getting overstimulated, hyperventilating.

[A]

Absolutely. That's fun. Yeah. That's good parenting right there. Here. Here's the next one. Was he jealous of her? But I feel like you just answered that.

[D]

Yeah, he was jealous of you. He did not want you. He did not want me to want you. You know, that's the thing that it was. He needed to make that separation as fast as he could, which is why he figured he must have been thinking about it for those three days.

[A]

And if you don't want this in here, that's fine. But I know that you had said that when you went out and collected, you had to leave me at home and. And then would have to come back and check. So I was like, what, a year old? Like a year and a half? Two years old?

[D]

No, not. Not yet. Not even. You were still a baby.

[A]

Baby.

[D]

The only thing that made it work is that I could feed you. I'd climb out the window, I'd go out and collect, and then I'd climb back in the window knowing, like, okay, I had to know your pattern of Sleeping enough for me to sneak out and try to get back before you woke up and started crying for another feeding. And I'd go back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

[A]

I'm so sorry, Mom. Did he let you care for me? I. I feel like you kind of answered that too.

[D]

Like, care for you emotionally.

[A]

Well, I. I think, you know, take care of me.

[D]

Yeah, that was all me. I. I'm sure he probably occasionally tipped a bottle up, you know, but. I mean, I can't say he never lifted a hand, but. Yeah, I don't know.

[A]

I used to have a picture of him feeding me.

[D]

Yeah, that's where we were living the day he slapped you in the head. Oh, yeah, that was the same house. I don't remember if it was the same day, you know, I don't remember.

[A]

No, I looked a little bit older at the time.

[D]

Yeah, it was a trailer. I remember that because all we had was a twin bed.

[A]

So I will ask you then, can we go to the day you escaped or. If you just want to give a summary, I know what happened that day.

[D]

Yeah, I'd rather just give you a summary. I had hitchhiked my way back to Michigan, right? I show up. Elle's there. We're doing this whole blended whatever the hell it was thing. He's starting to run low on money. And he had promised me that I would never have to go out and collect again. So once we get back to Flint, I wouldn't have to do that anymore. And then eventually, at a certain point, he approaches me. And I was just devastated. I remember the brown sweater I was wearing the day he had to told me that I had to go out and collect. And I knew. I just knew, like, this is never going to end. But here's the deal, right? So I was in Flint, in this neighborhood behind Buick City. That wasn't fully functional. It was half broken down. People were not working there anymore, Trying to collect money door to door. Like, I knew I was dead because I wasn't going to get money. So I had to, like. My brain just started panicking, like, how the hell am I going to do this? I'm not a robber, you know, because.

[A]

He'S sending you into a desolate neighborhood to go get money. A desolate neighborhood.

[D]

Yeah. And so I was just sobbing and walking. I remember the outfit I was wearing, it was very nice. I had to get up and go out and collect. And I'm just walking and I could not stop sobbing. I just kept walking and walking. And I kind of knew the general area that we were in. And I also knew that my dad was nearby. He was living in Flint, too. And although I hadn't been in contact with my dad because I was in Washington any. Anyway, so he was somebody that lived there. Right. And so I'm walking down the street and everything, and I'm just like, I want to go so bad, but I can't because I don't know what's going to happen to Lena. And I'm just crying and I didn't know what to do. And I'm walking down the sidewalk and I just remember it was Flint, you know, they have these really long blocks in these old neighborhoods.

[A]

Did water deliveries out there during the water crisis. So it's. It's long streets. I know what you're talking about.

[D]

Yeah. I'm walking down the road on the blocks ahead. I'm talking inside of myself, and I'm just thinking, like, what can I do? And I'm crying. And then I see ahead of me, I'm walking. I, like, see this vision of Jesus, this. And he's illuminated and he's very, very large. And I'm walking and I just immediately, it's like he's signaling at me to start praying and. And like. Rather than like, in my pity and my sorrow and my scaredness. And it's just the conversation at that point. I remember looking and he's talking to me and he's telling me, like, go, Gail. Just go. Go, your dad's not far. And I'm crying like, lord, I can't go. What's going to happen? I can't go. But I'm afraid if I don't, I'm gonna die. Like, I can't get the money. And he tells me, it's okay. You're gonna get her back. We're reasoning back and forth, and I'm walking closer, and then the vision of him disappears. And I'm in this conversation for a while and. And I left. And it wasn't. If it wasn't actually Jesus. It was.

[A]

Mom, it's okay. You got me back. You got me back. Promised you you would get me back, and you got me back. It was absolutely the Lord, Mom.

[D]

I hate saying that part, you know, because so many people are like, oh, we're gonna use the Jesus vision thing. Like, I didn't use the Jesus thing. I never had a second one my entire life.

[A]

Mom, you got me back.

[D]

I did get you.

[A]

That was a hundred percent the Lord. Okay.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah, it was.

[A]

I know it was. Because what he Said came true.

[D]

There's so many things that, you know, that did happen that came true. And I was. I was trying to, like, learn and build my strength up before I got you back. And everything went fine, you know, you were loved, all that kind of stuff. Stuff. But the day I left, you were nine months old. And the day I got you back, you were a year and nine months old. So I missed out on more than a year of your life.

[A]

It's okay, Mom. It's okay. I don't judge you at all for that, Mom. I. I mean, I do not. I. I did when I was a kid. And I'm sorry for that. But I promise you, I don't judge you at all.

[D]

I just think of all the emotions, you know, you were a baby.

[A]

I promise that you protected me.

[D]

I'm not saying that your whole world was just about me. But there was things I couldn't keep you from. You know, the places that you went and the things that you hurt.

[A]

It's okay. I think he probably disposed of me pretty quickly, if that makes you feel better.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah, he must have. Because when I went to my dad's, I don't know, probably the next day, something. Pretty soon they hid me at my cousin's house. And somebody told me to call the police. And when they went over there, he was already gone. With you. So I couldn't. I had no idea.

[A]

No, it's okay. It's.

[D]

He hid me. Yeah. And I found you. I found you.

[A]

So can you tell me about the occasion when friends. Fred. Followed you? So you've already escaped? At this point, yes. You brought the police back to the house. I'm not there anymore. He's gone. And you're looking for me?

[D]

I had found you. I had a boyfriend named C. I was living with my sisters. I had this boyfriend that ended up living with him. But I worked at this restaurant, at the same restaurant my sisters worked at. And this guy that I dated, I met through there. He's given me a ride home from work one day in Hazel Park. And Fred. We stop at the stoplight and Fred pulls up on the passenger side with his window down. My window was down and I wasn't paying attention. And I look over and he's in like a yellow, like Chevette or something. Real old, nasty looking thing. And I saw that he had his arm rested on the driver's side door. And he's looking at me. And when I noticed it was him, I also noticed that he may have said something to me. I don't remember. I just know it was absolute terror. And he had a glove, a wrist glove on his left hand that held like four maybe it was full of these spikes. I don't know how many. But I'd say generally you find a glove that can, like, fit the pieces down. I'd say there'd be four spikes on the top. And I'm sure there's something else in there. I just don't know where, because whatever. That was his style, but I'd never seen him have that product. But I knew exactly what it was because he had taught me how to throw spikes. So he's got this sleeve full of spikes. He's looking at me, and I mention to see that he's there. So C looks over. Fred's already gotten out of his car. He goes back around, lifts up the trunk space. And I don't know if it was like a hatchback or whatever it was. He lifted it up. C gets out of the driver's side and goes around to the rear panel to meet him. Which would have, like, both would have been behind the vehicle parked now. And we're like at the stoplight and you're in traffic. Yes. And they proceed to exchange some words. Fred pulls out of his trunk this black chain, which there's a part. Generally it's got a ring on to that you hold onto. It's the length of a chain. At the bottom of it is this grappling hook. I think they only have two hooks, but I don't know if it has three. And what you do is you gotta swing at this spike and you pull at it to tear flesh. That's the weapon that he had. He had the glove on and the spikes. And I don't remember if anybody got hit. I don't remember anything except the next thing I remember was leaving.

[A]

Was he swinging it?

[D]

Oh, yeah, I saw him swinging it. I think what happened was. I don't know. I don't remember. I think, like, C hopped back in the car at that point. I think he knew he was outmatched. So we get away from there. Fred's ends up finding out where I live and proceeds to harass me at the house my sister has lived in. And we moved.

[A]

And there was a court case about that.

[D]

Yeah, there was a court case. Yes. That was after the intersection incident. I don't remember much of anything. Excep finding out where we lived and having to leave. And then I remember there's this court case. I had to go testify about it. And while I was There. And C was there, of course, because he was the complainant. I think I was just a witness. And Michelle's there in the lobby. And I approached Michelle, and I made some mention to her, like, you're Michelle, right? She says, yes. And I remember saying something to her, like, how are you doing? Whenever I ask her, like, are you okay? Why are you doing this? Because I had never seen her before, but I wanted to relay to her that, like, she knows what she's doing. She knows she wasn't there. And then there's this other gal there, and she's long, lanky, almost identical to me when I was 16. Long red hair, everything. And she claims that she's driving the delivery truck and witnessed an altercation between us two. But I think she was just another one of his girls that was there to do false testimony. I believe that. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I feel like she got in trouble for that. I think she committed perjury is what that was, and got in trouble for that.

[A]

Okay, so I know you said you fell apart on the stand.

[D]

I did. I couldn't function. I mean, I told them everything. I must have been so nervous in my expression and my emotion combined. I don't think they believed me. So I never had to go back and testify. That was the only day they never asked me back. So that's the last I know.

[A]

That might be the assault charge that he has on the record prior to the murder charge, correct?

[D]

Yes. I mean, if he had connected it. I don't know. I don't remember if C went to the hospital. I really don't. There's a good chance that he did. But, yeah, he certainly would have killed him with a strike.

[A]

It seems like he was intending to cause some, if not kill him, you know, pretty severe damage to wield a weapon like that. How has Fred continued to harass you since being sent to prison?

[D]

Well, I haven't been bothered by Fred for about five years. I think that's when I finally changed my phone number. He sent me letters.

[A]

Well, I remember he sent Denise to our house when I was young.

[D]

Yeah, that started when you were young. He did that thing, you know, he sent Denise to the house to try to talk some sense into us, to let you visit him, get to know him, all those kind of things. So there's that whole situation. They're sending you gifts when we've asked him to leave us alone, all that kind of stuff.

[A]

He was forcing me to choose whether I was gonna talk to him or not. I think I was 12 then. Yeah, and then I know you said some years back, he even sent you another letter where he said, you know, we need to co parent our 35 year old daughter together. Which is so weird.

[D]

He did. He wanted to make amends and I wasn't interested. But I think what I ended up doing was calling that Mr. Sanders guy and saying, look, you know, I know that Mr. Sanders has contacted me before too, even after all that, because he said, Fred just really wants to communicate with you. And I'm going, I don't want to talk to Fred. Then somehow he gets my phone number and calls me on the phone from prison. And that was scary. So I changed my phone number.

[A]

And how many years later do you think that was?

[D]

That was about five, six years ago. So as long as I've had this number, you know, whenever I change my number last.

[A]

Oh my gosh. So that's pretty recent. Okay. Wow, I, I didn't realize that. Gosh, he really doesn't let it go, does he? What point would he have to talk to you? I mean, he just keeps popping up.

[D]

Yeah, he's on a five to ten year recycling program constantly. It's ridiculous.

[A]

How does it feel to see Fred portrayed in the media as the good guy?

[D]

Well, you're asking a Christian woman, so I would say it's quite expected. But knowing him, I'm not surprised. It makes me feel like, oh, look, another guilty guy. Got to bend the ears of people that only want to believe what they want. You know, they want a mission, they want a project, they want a poster child, they want a job. As, as much as I know, probably very many are helpful in this particular case. They're dead wrong.

[A]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[D]

This man does not deserve any help from proving innocence. Or yeah, maybe back in the day, like, oh, okay, let's comb through the case, make sure all the facts and elements are there. But this is ongoing and they reach out to family members and then they report it back to him. So year after year, like every maybe five years, everyone he recycles, get through, gets this whole new salad toss up of Fred.

[A]

I agree with that.

[D]

And it just goes on. If he gets out, it will go on, except it'll be in person.

[A]

And I think it's very weird that proving innocence is supposed to be focusing on this one case, yet they keep reaching out to his victims and saying he wants to talk to you on his behalf, which is just wild to me.

[D]

And I couldn't get victims rights against him because I was not on this case, in the Scott Macklin case, I never had any convictions against him because I never prosecuted anything he did to me.

[A]

Well, we tried to prosecute and it didn't work out. Why do you think so many people believe him, though?

[D]

Because so many people read without ever investigating or doing comparative research or thorough research. So that's all I really have to say about that. Because if they've done anything close to doing an in depth look at who this man is, and as an individual, they could have seen a lot more reasons why there was discrepancies and people didn't really want to testify or fluctuations in certain things. Maybe because he still sends this wave through people, like, they just don't know what the heck to do with the truth. So they're scared. So, yeah, there leaves a lot of questions. I could see how a jury could be swayed by him. Of course. Look how many people have. He's a professional at it now, of course.

[A]

Yeah. He's perfected his montage of lies. I think that. Do you think he should be released as redundant?

[D]

No, absolutely not.

[A]

Do you think he killed Scott Macklem?

[D]

This may sound bad, but I never read that case.

[A]

No, that's okay. I don't think you need to read it. It put up or, you know, I.

[D]

Do know some things. By that investigator coming to see me to see if I could be a witness and like a character witness, I could see how he would do, like knowing what his goal was, the control mechanisms and things he was using on Crystal and her family at that time. I know how he absolutely refuses to have any rebuttal about, you know, where he's going to take his woman and whatnot. So, yeah, I can see that happening and I can believe. I don't really have an opinion because I don't have the facts on the case, but I do believe that he's capable of it. Is this possible? Yes, I absolutely do.

[A]

What would happen if he got out of prison?

[D]

Well, I can say with full confidence there'll be gun sleeves in my walls. There'll be gun sleeves in my vehicles, allegedly, if they're not already there. And I already have enhanced security. But there'll be more, you know, police alerted. I'm not even joking.

[A]

No, but I mean, like, what do you think he would do?

[D]

I think that he would revisit everybody to try to get back at them. He does not know how not to be vengeful. He always has to be right and he has to show that he can stomp everybody down. And I think that he has had a lot of time to think about exactly how he's gonna do that and.

[A]

How not to get caught this time.

[D]

There's no reason I should think that he would suddenly just let it all roll because now he wants to get another job and be a daddy and a grandfather. Like, no, that's not in his scope of reality.

[A]

Yeah, I couldn't imagine him grand. How would. I was like, hey, my daughter's 18. Please stop blowing in her mouth. I don't think it's going to work. What do you.

[D]

Oh, my gosh.

[A]

What do you feel that the public needs to know about the real Fred Freeman?

[D]

That he is incredibly dangerous, that he should always be considered armed and deadly. He is. Whether he has a weapon or none, he will use force. He will use deadly force if necessary. And, boy, I don't know how much he's escalated since. Since the prison life that he's made. It might just be a knee jerk thing for him now.

[A]

Well, I think he paints a picture of himself as a feeble old man. Multiple health problems. I'm not buying it. He's still got all his muscles.

[D]

Yeah. Just because a person is old doesn't mean. I mean, like, look at Vietnam vets. They can go in and kick ass. You might get old and you might have some complications, but there's certain things you'll never forget how to do and be capable of. And I don't think he's feeble because he's evil.

[A]

He's fueled by rage.

[D]

I hate to use the word evil because, well, maybe the public doesn't want to read into the spiritual aspects of this, but this man is incredibly dangerous. And I think that he's fully capable of causing a whole lot more damage to not only his victims that he can find, because he will, but just to society in general and the new victims that he'll have rotating like a Rolodex. He's a risk to society. He's insane.

[A]

Yeah, I. I agree with that. Absolutely. Can you tell us about your work as a victim's advocate? I mean, I know you raised me and the siblings on the farm, then you went and worked at the courthouse where you became a victim's advocate.

[D]

Correct.

[A]

So I guess maybe a better question would be, how do you think the things that you lived through helped shape your work when you were a victim's advocate? You've been out of that for a while now, right?

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

But you did it for like, what, 11 years?

[D]

No, nine years. Three months shy of vesting. And I. I quit on that. Yeah, so. So somehow God's just always given me a good gut and he's taken my life experiences that were negative and built some strengths as a survivor. Like, I would know how to be able to communicate with people that have a hard time communicating about sexual abuse, abusive things that are happening. You know, there's a process to unfolding a person. It's like onion peels. So I got trained into how to do victims rights and things like that. It was really quite natural for me because my level of compassion for them and wanting to help them and actually get justice because so many people don't get that. And honestly, you know, training kids for CSC trials is not for sissies, but.

[A]

And they.

[D]

They need to get justice. So, yeah, I just praise God for giving me the strength. Like, we got justice for kids, and that was cool. And if I had not had my past prior to Fred, you know, my past with Fred, like, there's this combination.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely.

[D]

And by the grace of God, it gives me the skill set that he's equipped me with for it. Because honestly, it was difficult. I absolutely don't regret doing it. I know that it was necessary for me to take on that task at that time, and God gave me the strength to do it. I wouldn't have been able to know what to look for with victims of all kinds of stuff if I hadn't had my experiences in abuse. There's just all the things that come into play when I'm doing victims rights. And I just. I don't know, I was able to spare my emotions until the office door closed and everybody had went. Just being able to pull it off, all that kinds of stuff. But, yeah, it's like stepping stones in life trials, you know, things like that. If you're looking, if you're really paying attention, you'll see those stepping stones in life are places where God put his foot first. And everything that was bad about any of those stepping stones. So if you're really paying attention, you can see how he takes them and uses it in your life. Sometimes you don't see it while you're going through it all, but in the rear view, you're like, wow, okay. You know, that's what God does. He takes it all, makes you better, stronger, because you know that it's healed and he's in control.

[A]

And when you've lived through trauma, I think you have a better window of knowing what to look for in others. For sure. It gives you a sixth sense almost that helps you navigate even on just a Case by case basis, to. To see how a person's reacting emotionally. And I think you experienced such a spectrum of abuse from childhood through adulthood with Fred. And I think it gave you a good. At least in what I saw, gave you a really good window of the range that you had and how to maneuver and how to work through that stuff.

[D]

And by association with your past experience, you retrain yourself like, okay, are these the right questions I need to ask? I don't know how I'm going to work it up to that point, but I know exactly the questions I need to ask to find out exactly what's happening. Because a lot of people will glaze over an answer. And that doesn't cut it for evidence in a court or for a judge. So in time, you're tracking these things, you really want to see that victim get justice? You just have to hone in on your intellect, your emotion, all of it, to get them to that next spot, that next place. And me having gone through everything I did, and then to recover, having a family, a farm, all these wonderful things that came into my life, then being moved into a position like that, like, I praise God for that. Amen. I thank him for every bit of that.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. I. I will. If you could, without any fear and knowing that you were just completely 100% protected, see him face to face, is there anything that you would say to him that you never, never got a chance to?

[D]

Okay, Lord, I gotta think of something nice. Hold on.

[A]

No, you don't have to think of anything nice, Mother. I want you to think of what you would want to say.

[D]

I guess I'd go with the Ten Commandments. Thou shall have no other God before me. I'm the Lord your God. There's no other gods, you know, I just like to stand there and repeat that to him. The Ten Commandments, all of it for hours.

[A]

Because he made himself a God in your life.

[D]

Yeah. Just pour God's word over him.

[A]

That's an act of mercy. I'm really impressed. Mine might go differently.

[D]

If he doesn't find God, then. He's burning. Yeah. I don't know. He may. May not. I don't know yet. His story's not done either. Do I want to be buds with him? Never. I never want to speak to him. I never want to see him. Nothing, nothing, nothing. But I do wish that he could be healed and fixed and normal, you know, so if you just have that run through his veins and in his brains for a moment. Yeah, I wish that even for him.

[A]

So your hope for him is that he gets healing someday.

[D]

Yeah. Not because I want to be his buddy or so that you can get your daddy, you know, it's just that nobody needs to be that miserable.

[A]

Yeah, I agree. It's gotta be hard. It's gotta be exhausting to just live in constant burning anger.

[D]

Yeah. I'm so disinterested in even him, like, thinking about what going through his head. Like, I'm falling asleep thinking about that. Like, it's got to be a full time job. Nobody wants that much going on in there. I wouldn't wish that on anybody.

[A]

So it's interesting because somebody made the statement about how I hope he goes to hell or this or that. And I said, I, I don't. I don't. I want him to get saved. I. I knew for. For. And people were shocked by that. But I told this person and I told Anya and Kevin too. I said, I would like to stand before a version of my dad that could look at me and tell me the truth.

[D]

Truth.

[A]

I've never had that. I've never had a version of him healed. I've never had the opportunity to know anything good about him in that sense. I knew he was an artist in that. But I'm talking about to be in his presence without fear or terror or thinking, what are the ramifications if I don't say the right thing? I felt that even in just visiting him in prison, knowing there's a consequence if I don't speak right, that he's going to do something like break my finger when I'm sitting there in prison visiting him. So my response was was, I actually don't want that. I want him to get saved. Because if I got up to heaven and he was standing there in front of me, I would finally get to see a healed person. I would get to meet my dad. I. I know. How insane would that be?

[D]

Yeah. There's gotta be some portion of you that people would like to hang around. You know, like, guy, why don't you get it? Come on, get it together. Get holy.

[A]

I. I love you. That's the perfect answer. That's the best way to end this interview.

[D]

You.

[A]

You did great. Is. Is there anything you want to tell? Tell anything. Anything you want to tell Kevin and Anya?

[D]

There's so many more words that I can say to them. And I just want to express my appreciation. Like, I'm really glad that they're interested in getting the truth out because I think this has just gone on way too long. And, you know, My concern too, I guess, is I want to thank them because I think this is helping the victims too. Like, amen people are getting re victimized and stuff like that by him. It's just cycling through. And this is kind of all we've ever got that.

[A]

I told them. Nobody's ever approached us to ask us the truth. And the only time I've been approached was to paint a story about how I missed my pop pop. To which I said, that's not how that would go. Are you sure you want me on this interview? And I was like, never mind. And, you know, people hung up on me. So thank you, Bill Proctor, for that. But, yeah, so I agree. Is there anything you'd like to say to Crystal?

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I would like to say thank you to Crystal for showing up at that commutation hearing and I'd like to encourage her. And I just thank God for her strength that she's still alive and all these wonderful things. I hope she has a wonderful life. I also want to say that I want to thank her and her family for taking a moment to speak with us outside in the parking lot. They were so kind and receptive of us. And the only reason that you can say that happened is because she knew we were telling the truth. There was a connection between the victims that day and the hearing, all of us. And there was this huge disconnection, like a line drawn down the middle of the aisle. It was literally a line down the middle of the aisle. But I'd just like to say thank you, Crystal. Thank you to your family for being that way with Laina and I that day. I wish them well and so much in healing.

[A]

Yes. Amen. And I think that's the perfect way to end. Mom, I'm really, really proud of you.

[D]

Okay? I love you. Thank you.

[A]

Of course I love you. We want to once again thank G and Laina for participating in this program. We really appreciate their courage and bravery in shining a light on these abuses. And we hope it inspires others to take a stand against their abusers.

[B]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[A]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records request requests, you can do so at www buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@Kevin TG.com if you're looking to talk.

[A]

With other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.