The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: Leyna’s Story: Part One

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Summary
Episode: The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: Leyna’s Story: Part One
Release Date: July 29, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)
Description: The episode delves into the harrowing story of Lena (referred to as Denise in the transcript), the daughter of Temujin Kensu, the convicted murderer of Scott Macklem. Through a detailed interview, Lena recounts her traumatic experiences growing up under the shadow of her father's violent legacy and ongoing harassment from him.

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1. Introduction to the Case (01:11 - 03:06)

The episode opens with Lena providing background on Temujin Kensu, the man convicted of murdering Scott Macklem in 1986 in Port Huron, Michigan. Lena highlights Kensu’s obsession with fatherhood and his attempts to reconnect with his children and grandchildren, which significantly influenced his parole hearings.

Notable Quote:

“I want a chance to prove my innocence. I want a chance at life again. I want to live with my family and my kids.”
— Lena [01:55]

2. Kensu’s Family and Children (02:20 - 03:53)

Kevin Greenlee discusses Kensu’s attempt to portray himself as a devoted father during his parole hearings. Lena corroborates by explaining that Kensu has multiple children with different women, both biological and those raised to believe they are his offspring. This complex family dynamic suggests more hidden victims due to Kensu’s violent behavior.

Notable Quote:

“We know of four now adults who could be accurately described as Kenzu's children. Within those two categories, we imagine there could very well be more women had a habit of fleeing Kinzu's violence.”
— Lena [02:40]

3. Early Childhood Trauma (03:53 - 07:39)

Lena reveals her first encounter with Kensu at the age of eight, a phone call from prison where he attempted to assert himself as her biological father. The confusing and frightening experience left her traumatized, leading to deep-seated trust issues and emotional scars. The interaction was intercepted by the school principal, leaving Lena and her mother emotionally devastated.

Notable Quote:

“I remember I was freezing. I think it was just too much. I couldn't understand.”
— Lena [08:43]

4. Ongoing Harassment and Stalking (07:39 - 14:18)

The conversation shifts to the continuous harassment Lena and her family faced from Kensu, even after his incarceration. Private investigators were employed to track and intimidate the family, resulting in persistent fear and psychological abuse. Lena recounts how prison officials failed to protect her, as she was not listed as a victim in Kensu’s records.

Notable Quote:

“We never knew where it was coming from or how it was coming at us. It just got, you know, a different form of aggression started to come at us.”
— Lena [25:26]

5. Attempts to Reconnect and Cult Involvement (16:10 - 40:22)

At seventeen, Lena embarked on a journey to connect with her father, leading her into the dark realm of Kensu’s cult, the Temple of Joran Ka. Under the guise of spiritual enlightenment, Lena was subjected to intense psychological manipulation, martial arts training, and religious indoctrination. The cult blended elements of Buddhism with Nazi-esque beliefs, emphasizing purity and oneness, which perplexed and alarmed Lena.

Notable Quote:

“The Cathalians were a peaceful Nazi-esque belief system that I was told is just predates thousands of years.”
— Lena [38:14]

6. The Fourth Visit and Breaking Point (69:15 - 78:51)

During the fourth visit to meet her father, Lena experienced a pivotal moment of confrontation. Kensu’s sudden outburst and physical aggression shattered any remaining illusions, forcing Lena to firmly reject him. This traumatic encounter solidified her resolve to distance herself from Kensu and exposed the abusive nature of his behavior.

Notable Quote:

“When you challenge the narrative that everybody has been forced to, you know, believe there's a completely different side to him that comes out.”
— Lena [53:27]

7. Impact on Lena’s Life and Mental Health (78:51 - 82:15)

Lena discusses the profound impact Kensu’s actions had on her mental health, including struggles with trust, depression, and suicidal ideation. She expresses a deep sense of responsibility to heal and support other victims, channeling her pain into activism and advocacy against abuse.

Notable Quote:

“I've spent the past 15 years trying to go back and make it up to victims of this type of abuse.”
— Lena [81:25]

8. Ongoing Harassment and Current Status (82:15 - 86:06)

Despite cutting ties, Lena reveals that Kensu's harassment continues through letters and covert tracking, exacerbating her trauma. The hosts emphasize that Kensu's manipulative tactics extend beyond personal abuse to systemic stalking, highlighting the enduring danger he poses.

Notable Quote:

“He has stayed away from me and my mom is because we hold truth and he can convince everybody else. But we lived this. We lived it.”
— Lena [65:19]

Conclusion and Preview of Part Two (86:06 - End)

The episode concludes with Áine and Kevin praising Lena for her bravery in sharing her story. They hint at more revelations in Part Two, promising further insights into Lena’s ongoing battle against Kensu’s influence and the quest for justice and healing.

Notable Quote:

“She's a very, very nice, compassionate lady. And I just appreciate she didn't have to do this and she did. And it's because she wants the truth out there.”
— Kevin Greenlee [84:09]

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Key Takeaways:

• Temujin Kensu's Manipulation: Kensu employed psychological tactics and cultic practices to manipulate and control his family, even from prison.
• Lena’s Trauma: Lena's early and ongoing encounters with Kensu have left her with significant emotional and psychological scars, including trust issues and mental health challenges.
• Cult Involvement: Kensu’s Temple of Joran Ka blended harmful ideologies, subjecting Lena to intense indoctrination and abuse.
• Persistent Harassment: Despite her efforts to disconnect, Lena continues to face harassment from Kensu, underscoring the enduring threat he poses.
• Survivor Advocacy: Lena channels her trauma into activism, striving to support other victims and dismantle Kensu’s manipulative narratives.

This episode provides a gripping and emotional exploration of the lasting impact of familial abuse and the complexities of overcoming such trauma. Lena's story sheds light on the dark undercurrents of manipulation and the resilience required to seek the truth and healing.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Episode includes profanity as well as a discussion of murder, rape, suicide, domestic abuse, child abuse, and the abuse of an infant.

[Lena]

Fatherhood is a big deal to Temujin Kenzu. He, of course, is the man who murdered Scott Macklem in Port Huron, Michigan in 1986. Scott himself was a father to be he never got to meet the baby he shared with Crystal. Scott's father and mother never got to see him again. They've had to endure years without him. Crystal was left without her fiance, left to raise a baby at a young age. Kinzu made sure of that. But for Kinzu, at least, being a father is a major part of his identity. At least that's what he says.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here's a quote of his from the 2010 Parole and Commutation Board hearing on his case. Here Kenzu's arguing for why he ought to be released.

[Lena]

I want a chance to prove my innocence. I want a chance at life again. I want to live with my family and my kids.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He also said this.

[Lena]

I have beautiful grandchildren. I know that everybody comes and says that before the parole board, but I have some beautiful grandchildren and they need a grandpa. I've got a beautiful daughter that needs a father who's never been there for her. And that's what I want to do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So Kenzie wants everyone to know that reuniting with his family is a big deal for him. Okay, so let's talk about Kenzie's family. Specifically, let's talk about his kids. He wants to live with his kids, or at least I guess, live a life where he can have access to his Kids and grandkids. That's a big argument of his when it comes to being released.

[Lena]

Well, it is true that Kenzou does have children. We know of several kids that he had with multiple women, biological children and a child raised to believe they were his. We know of four now adults who could be accurately described as Kinzu's children. Within those two categories, we imagine there could very well be more women had a habit of fleeing Kinzu's violence. There could be children out there that he doesn't even know about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One woman who did not have a child with him is Crystal. But we believe that her pregnancy factored into Kenzu's decision to kill Scott. Kenzu has admitted that at the time of the murder, he thought that that baby might be his. We believe he was furious that Crystal escaped him. We believe that he imagined Scott stole his property, his woman, his baby. For a control freak like Kenzu who views women as property, that was far too much to bear.

[Lena]

With all of these children and different mothers, things get confusing pretty quickly. We should note that in a previous episode, we believe we made an error when discussing these now adult children. We refer to a woman named Michelle, who is one of Kinzu's many, many victims, is having a daughter with him. She actually had a son.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One particular daughter has come up in our coverage. We referred to her in previous coverage as Elle. She was the subject of much verbal abuse from Kenzou in a long rage filled letter that I read on the show. That letter was addressed to two of his daughters. Elle also testified at the commutation hearing against Kenzou. So did her mother, Kenzie's ex wife, who we called G. Both women asked for him not to be released.

[Lena]

Here is what the board had to say about Elle's testimony. The speaker is Barbara Sampson, who chaired the board back then.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We were a little stunned because rarely as a board, I can only think of one other time. Have the children of an inmate come forward and testified against the individual's release. This is only the second time that I can recall since being on this board that this has happened.

[Lena]

Well, frankly, we were not so stunned. In her testimony, Elle talked about being stalked by her biological father dating back to when she was a child. She discussed how he terrorized her and her mother for years. And those evil actions started early in G's testimony.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She recounted a harrowing story where Kenzie wouldn't let her attend to their days old baby. When Elle cried, Kenzu hit her. He blew in her face so that she struggled to breathe. He did that to a baby.

[Lena]

We are even less stunned now because we've talked to Elle. Her name is actually Lena. She told us all about what she and her mother went through at Kinzu's hands. Now, Kinzu's birth name is Frederick Freeman, so she will call him Fred throughout this episode. But just keep in mind, when she says Fred, she's talking about the man who now calls himself Temujin Kenzu.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Lena is bravely stepping forward to share her story with us. No one has done this before, at least not in a podcast. We've only ever heard from Kenzo's wives, who go out into the public proclaiming his innocence, whitewashing his actions. Laina is different. Lena is here to tell the truth about her father. She does this fully expecting to be attacked by her father and his wife Paula and his misguided online acolytes. She does this because she's sick of the lies. She's sick of the constant attacks on Kenzoo's victims. And she's doing this because on some level, she hopes that by embracing the truth and the light, she can get through to her father. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Lena]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Lena]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the murder of Scott Macklem. The Guilt of Temujin Kenzu, Lena's Story, Part one.

[Denise]

Sam.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I guess, Lena, first of all, thank you so much for joining us today. We really, really appreciate you taking the time and for doing this.

[Denise]

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having us. This was great.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, we always enjoy talking to you. I did want to ask you just. Can you just tell our audience a little bit about yourself?

[Denise]

Yeah. Well, my name is Lena. I am the daughter of. I call him Fred, but the world calls him, I think, Temujin. Is that right? Is that. Am I saying it right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You said it right.

[Denise]

Okay. Temujin. And I was born in 1984, lived with him and my mother until I was around nine months, I believe. And then I grew up in hiding with my mom, and I didn't learn again about him until I was eight. And, yeah, now I do art and I work with victims of sexual abuse and all types of things like that. And all that stems from, you know, growing up with this. This cloud over us.

[Lena]

You said you heard about him when you were eight. Can you tell us about that experience?

[Denise]

Yeah, so I was in elementary school, I was in second grade, and I got called down to the office. At this point, my family was using a different last name for me, and I never really questioned that. I was eight, right? So you don't go, oh, I just have a new name now. So I got called onto the office, and the secretary was there, and she handed me the phone. And when I said hello, he immediately, Fred started dumping on me. I'm your father. You've been. You know, they've been lying to you. And I was very confused because at this point in my life, I'm being raised by another man, and we'll call him D. And I thought that it was him. He was going to, like, a community college at the time. And Fred was saying very excitedly, like, I'm gonna come get you. I'm gonna come get. We're gonna be a family. And I thought, oh, do you not have college today? You don't have to do your classes today. So he's gonna come and get me out of school early. And so I was asking him that. And Fred was like, no, you don't understand. They've been lying to you. I'm your real dad. And I remember I was freezing. I think it was just too much. I couldn't understand. I'm hearing your mom. Everybody's lying to you. You don't know who you are. And I had frozen completely. And the secretary looked over, and I had tears running down my face because now I think I'm gonna get kidnapped. And she ripped the phone out of my hand. And the principal came rushing in and grabbed the phone. And at that point, she just moved me into the principal's office. And I don't. I know I could. I remember them. There was, like, some type of yelling going on. And then I was just sitting in the principal's office, and that's where I stayed until my mom came.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And what was the fallout of that incident?

[Denise]

Well, the school had been made aware that, you know, Fred was in prison for murder, that we were being stalked and things. So I think they felt really bad that there had been, like, this slip, you know? And I remember the principal sitting in the room with me, and I just couldn't really speak. I didn't know what to think or anything. He just kept reassuring me, your mom's on the way. She's coming. She's gonna come get you. And I remember her showing up, and we sat in the parking lot of the elementary school, and. And she tried to tell me the story, but she was just sobbing so Badly and couldn't get a lot of stuff out. And I'm hearing about like ninjas and torture and martial arts and just like, it was just so much. And so as a kid, I internalized it as like, my whole life is a lie. Right. And I've been lied to. And this guy that I think is my dad, he's not my dad. And so obviously, like, nobody loves me. I started to create a separation within myself from myself and my siblings that I had been growing up with because I felt like I'm alone. I'm alone. I have this whole different existence. And I didn't know moving forward who to trust. So, you know, Even now at 41, I struggle with trust because it's like I grew up in a bubble. You know, who's telling me the truth. And especially when it comes to stuff with Fred, there's been so much deception. I have to. Had to learn how to navigate life and sort out people and almost like test them. Are you telling me the truth? I would cut you in a lie and stuff. So I really struggle even still with trust issues and boundaries and things because you grow up getting kind of psychologically bullied, you know. So I'm working on that now. That's why I'm here today. Boundaries, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely. And I mean, with that earliest incident, looking back, obviously you're eight years old, you're hearing all this. Head is stained. Looking back, how do you think he was able to do that from prison?

[Denise]

So I learned at 17, when I went on a journey of self discovery, that the woman that he was married to, she goes by Amiko, I think I'm saying. Or her name is. I don't know if you've said her name. So have you said her full name?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we've done her initial her. I think we said Denise and Amiko.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Denise]

Okay.

[Lena]

Not used your last name, I don't think.

[Denise]

Yeah. So Denise. Okay, so we. The audience is aware of Denise. Yeah. Yes. So Denise told me that she was on the other end of that call because this would have been like late 80s, right? Maybe early 90s. Can't remember how old I am now. But. But so what happened is she called because the like you couldn't collect call the prison from. To the elementary school. It would have been shut down. Right. So what happened is he contacted Denise and then she called my elementary school, which when she told me that, I remember the like sinking feeling in because that was such a profound. Like that shaped the whole course of my life moving forward. And to know that there was somebody else on the other end, like a mom listening, that didn't intervene. I felt very sick. I started to immediately distrust her. And I realized, you know, when she shared the rest of the things that went on, how I didn't know if she was my friend or. It was all. It was very, very confusing. But, yeah, she called to. She called the school form for him so that they could bypass the Collette call issue.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Something that's always benefited Kenzou is that his behavior is so outrageous, it's actually hard to believe he does things that are so horrible or weird that it can be easy for his supporters to dismiss those things later on. But let me make one thing clear. We know this happened. It's not Lena's word against Kenzoo's.

[Lena]

Denise admitted this incident happened on the record. During the commutation hearing, she defended herself and Kinzu, claiming they were only trying to pressure the principal at Lena's school into giving them school photographs of her, because that's not creepy at all. Again, Denise is the same person as Amiko, which is the name that Kinzu gave her. We're going to call her Denise from here on out. And to be clear, we consider her to be another one of Temujin Kenzu's many victims.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You mentioned other things that went on. Can you tell us about some of the other incidents that then occurred kind of in those intervening years as your kid growing up and sort of sporadically.

[Denise]

Hearing from this person who's your biological father? Yeah. So Denise shared with me that she was taking pictures of me on the playground, which is crazy when I look back at that, the type of school that I went to was in, like, the middle of nowhere. Right. And so I very clearly can remember the neighborhoods and the things that butted up to, you know, the playground and that. So knowing where she had to be standing, that it never came to any adult's attention is, like, so alarming. She would have had to have, like, inserted herself, like, almost in somebody's yard or like, right on the school property in order to do that. She told me that they hired private investigators that would follow us and find out where we were, and they would get photos of my mom and myself, and then those things would be taken back. And it was presented to me that this was being done because he just loves you so much, and he wanted to make sure you were safe. And we don't trust your mom. But, yeah, she. She let me know that they. And then showed up to our house. Uh, I can't remember If I was in second and third grade when she did.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Again. During the commutation hearing, Denise admitted to going to Lena's mother G directly.

[Denise]

I know around second grade is when she started watching me on the playground. I believe it was in. Sorry. I don't know why that's making me emotional. It's okay. I'm fine. I think it was around third, second, or third grade. I remember a woman with long red hair pulling up, and she got out of the car, and my mom, I think, immediately realized what was going on. I don't know that she know who Denise was, but something in her, probably just survival, kicked in. And she looked at me and said, lena, get in the house. Get in the house now. And I said, okay. And I went and got in the house, and we had, like, one of those windows, like, the door had, like, the square box window thing, and I could look out. And I remember seeing my mom and this just, like, yelling, you know, altercation with this woman. And found out many years later that Denise had come to try to, as she put it, talk some sense into my mom so that I could go visit Fred in prison. Because at that point, my mom had been refusing to bring me. He was demanding that I be brought up to the prison, and she wouldn't do it. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm so sorry that you and your mom had this hanging over you, like, when you're so young. That makes me emotional thinking about, like, a little baby.

[Denise]

Yeah, yeah, I know. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, I guess. I think. And we read about one incident. Where was it that he actually. Your biological father actually called the house?

[Denise]

Yeah. Multiple times. He did that. Yeah. I assume the one that you're probably referring to was mentioned in the commutation hearing when I was 12. Again, Denise helped with that one. I believe there was lots of times where he would. We would change phone numbers and different things. Knowing now that they hired private investigators, it makes a lot more sense how they were able to constantly access our information. But I remember my siblings. My siblings did not know about what happened until I was much older. It was just like everybody basically agreed we're just raising Lena like she's, you know, Dee's kid, and that's what we're doing for the sake of these other children, which I was fine with that. And so one of my brothers answered the phone. I don't know if he accepted the collect call or if, again, it was Denise helping facilitate it, but he ran out and said, lena, the phone is. And this is. Again, this is like the 90s so, like, me getting a phone call in the middle of the afternoon. I'm like, whoa, this is crazy. You know, who could it be? So I don't have friends. You know, I'm in, like, you know, fifth or sixth grade. And I got on the phone, and it was Fred. And everything in me, I froze when I heard his voice. And he said, lena, it's your dad. And I knew. I knew what was going on. And I remember I dropped down. I was so, like, overwhelmed with fear that I dropped down and he started rambling about how he was getting out. He was getting out of prison, he was going to come and get me, and we were going to be a family, and I'm going to come get you, and I'm going to. And he was talking about taking me to some, like, cabin or something. And I was just, like. I was so overwhelmed with fear that I actually, like, collapsed. And one of my siblings came in, and I was on the floor in the corner shaking and just silently crying. I didn't want him to hear me cry. Uh, I was afraid he would start yelling at me. And so I had to phone, like, away. If any of the audience is old enough to know. It was like an old push tone. Right. And so I tilted the phone away so that he couldn't hear me crying. And one of my siblings saw me shaking and crying in the corner and ran out and said, something's wrong with Lena. And my stepdad said, what's going on? They're like, she's on the phone. And him. My mom immediately knew and came running in. And I remember Dee coming in, grabbing the phone from me and saying, lena. My mom picked me up, like, come on, we're gonna go outside. And I was just so broken. And I was, you know, just kept repeating, he's coming to get me. He's gonna come get me. He's gonna come get me. Sorry. Now I know.

[Lena]

Anytime you want a break, just say, okay.

[Denise]

No, I. I don't need a break. I'm actually surprised. I've said this so many times in life. I'm surprised. It's making. It just makes me sad. You didn't have to do this, you know? Yeah. As a kid and now having my own, it hurts me to think of the ages, of what was happening. Right. And. But I just kept saying, he said, he's getting out. He's getting out of prison. And so I remember hearing Dee screaming from the inside. And then I was brought back into the house sometime later, and they told me that he had given Them an ultimatum that I had to decide whether or not I wanted to see him. I was, I guess, old enough in his eyes to make that decision myself, but I had to tell him myself if that's what I wanted. And so my parents sent me to Canada for two weeks with an aunt and uncle, and I traveled around. I had the best time of my life. And they did that because they knew what was gonna happen when I got home. They took me to all these wonderful places and just talked with me through things and told me, you know, like, you don't have to do this if you don't want to, or if you do want to, we'll all support you. And. And when I got home, it was very quickly that he called, and I had to get on the phone and tell him that I didn't want to have communication with him. And he immediately started to rage at me and tell me that I didn't know what I was talking about. A string of, like, swear words and stuff started coming out, and that's when my mom took the phone and said, you go on. It's okay. It's okay. You know? And then they took me outside, and. And I remember all my siblings just being like, are you okay? And I was like. And I didn't have to do my, like, barn chores, I think, for, like, the next couple days, you know, like. But, yeah, that. That was a really. He made me face him as best as he could at 12, and I was not ready for that. That's when I acquired such deep insomnia because I would stay awake until the light hit, because I would stare at the window in my bedroom because I thought he was gonna come in and get me. So. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I can't Even imagine being 12 and dealing with that.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, like, having to, like, the mixed feelings of, like, you maybe wanna know your dad, but also.

[Denise]

Right. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Not like this.

[Denise]

And. Yeah. When he had made it clear if I said no, that I was, like, dead to him. Yeah. Yeah. So that. That is something I. Like, if I didn't say yes, that I was never allowed to come back. And. And I didn't really know what that meant. You know, I. I was just so overwhelmed by all of it. Like, if my no was definite and finite and so. But which I know now wasn't true, it was just another tactic. Right. Another way to, like, intimidate me into getting the answer that he wanted. But, yeah, it was. It was. So I was wrestling a lot with that. I remember that, like, if I. If I don't Say yes, then I'll never be able to have a relationship. I'll never be able to learn on my own. But no, I, I know now that was just a tactic. Obviously.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, one thing I wanted to throw out there, just that kind of came to mind is that like, you know, with, with your mom who had been in a relationship with him, with you, you weren't listed in the files with his case as victims.

[Denise]

As a victim, yeah. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you're not listed as victims. I imagine it was difficult to, you know. Did your, did your stepfather and mom try to go to prison officials and say yes?

[Denise]

Oh, yes, multiple times? Yeah, he was reported multiple, multiple times. My mom would call, you know, judges, wardens, all types of stuff. We tried to get victims advocacy. My mom wasn't even notified when, you know, he was initially incarcerated. So she had to like, learn how to be vigilant about what prisons he was at, where he was and stuff in the same way because he continued to find us. And then every time he would find us and she would appeal to, you know, the prisons and different things, it was, well, you're, you don't have victims rights, you don't have them. So she just created a safety system for me as best as she could. But yeah, for us it never stopped. And I think that's, if that's okay to say. I don't mean to deviate, but I think it's really important for people to understand, like him going to prison was actually just the beginning of a new hell for us. Right. Because now it's, he's recruiting people to watch us and he himself is not doing the dirty work. So we never knew where it was coming from or how it was coming at us. And that is, I mean, that's continued to this day. So him going to prison for us, the stalking and harassment has never stopped. We're very, very similar to Crystal in that and never knowing who you can trust and where it's coming. It just got, you know, a different form of aggression started to come at us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's appalling. And it's also really striking that prison officials basically said, well, you're not on the list.

[Denise]

Yeah. And some of the letters they let through with the verbiage has always really bothered me because I know they read their mail and that like you're sending this eight, you know, nine year old kid these hate filled messages and the officials are like, yeah, let them ship it out, let them, let them send it. I mean that's, that's wild to Me? Yeah. I don't know if anybody's. You guys should work on that, you know? Yeah, yeah. It's just. Stop.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, I think people who are not familiar with how this works do feel like, well, prison's the end of the story, so.

[Denise]

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not. Absolutely not. And especially when you have, like, a following like this. It's actually just a new method. Right. You gotta come up with new stuff. I get more creative about stalking people.

[Lena]

So as you got a little older, did your mom start to tell you more and more about what her relationship with your father had been like?

[Denise]

Yeah, some. I got bits and pieces when she was able to. She very much struggles to speak about it, even still, and there's things that she'll start to talk about and then she stops and was like, I can't. You know, she's not ready. I would ask questions, and usually that was met with anger, which I now understand. She didn't. She wasn't ready. She never got help. Right. There was no victim services or, like, mental health was not even an issue in the 80s, I guess. I mean, it was, but they weren't addressing it. And the type of abuse she went through, I don't even. And think that that kind of help exists even now, you know, that we have something strong enough. So when I would try to get stuff, you know, like what was his favorite color? What was this? It felt like she was dodging the questions a lot. But the truth is, I don't think she knew. And I realize that going back now, when I interviewed her recently. Right. She didn't ask questions she wasn't allowed to. That was established, like, right from the beginning. So anything that she knows, she knows through him. But, like, the family history stuff, like. Right. We tried to go through, like, well, who is his mom? Who is it? She didn't have access to that information. She only knew what she was told. And so piecing together a history for even myself is really hard to do because it almost like it doesn't exist for us, you know, it's not a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Normal relationship where, you know, Kevin and I start seeing each other. His family. Yeah.

[Denise]

No. Oh, my gosh, no.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But it's as if someone just. Here's what I want you to know.

[Denise]

Yes, yes, 100%. This is like the box that you get, and these are the forms you get to read about who I am, and that's where it stops.

[Lena]

So when you were 12, you weren't ready to have any kind of a relationship with him?

[Denise]

No.

[Lena]

But when you got a little bit older, you decided to try.

[Denise]

Yeah, I did. At 17, my parents had been through actually already their divorce. I and my stepfather were not speaking anymore. So I went on this like self discovery journey. My mom did say, you know, you're old enough now, if you wanna do that, okay, but be prepared. She did warn me, this is not gonna end the way you think it's gonna end. And so I, I had gotten, I believe, a letter from Denise and that's what. It had her phone number in it. So I snuck down to a church. This is gonna sound so bad. But they used to leave like their back hall door unlocked because I didn't want it show up on my dad's phone bill and my stepdad's phone bill, who I was still visiting my siblings. So that was like the only phone. And I definitely couldn' from my mom's, right? And so I went to this church and I slid in the back door and I used their rotary dial phone to call her number and that's how. And she picked up. And so I told her, you know, I wanted to meet her. We picked this spot and she came to meet me and I went and stayed with her. And then she took me to the prison to meet Fred. At that time he was in Kinshlow in the up. So it was a very long drive. I wanna say it was like six to eight hours. Yeah, ye. It was very fast. Everything happened very quickly.

[Lena]

What was it like staying with Denise?

[Denise]

It was a bit, I don't want to swear it was a mind torture. And I didn't know at that point in life what to believe and what not to believe because I was getting the package that Denise was given from him, right, about who he is and what. So they were like, well, your mom is a liar. And he never did any of those things. And he loves, you know, he loves women. I know. I'm like, oh, okay. And so. And also I am in this woman's home and she wanted to walk me through like history stuff, right? Like this is who your dad is. And she had pictures I had never seen. She had like a stuffed animal that was in a photograph with me, I believe, or. Or they just found the best replica and like lied to me. I don't know. I. I don't know, honestly. And so I was allowed to like, see his, his stuff for the first time. I was almost like immediately encouraged into martial arts. Yeah, I know. And I'm like, I was not athletic. I was a band kid. So I was like this Isn't gonna go the way you guys think this is gonna go. And I was also. I don't have you. I don't know if you guys have addressed the cult thing, but I was also almost immediately given his religious information and told that he led this group of believers. And this. They didn't use the word cult, obviously. She spoke of it so nonchalantly, like, I should know what this is, that they were the Cathalians and stuff. And I was like, oh, okay. And then she started telling me that I was the Cathalian princess. So it was like they, like, threw me in and tried to, like, deify me. I haven't even met him yet, and I'm just getting hit with all this information. It was like a wave. And I think I just kind of like, oh, okay. And just shut down inside again. Because that was my response and was just like, all right, all right, all right. And I didn't question it, really. I just. I kept things to myself because I was very fearful of the situation. And. Yeah. It was like a prepackaged, like, press release of what, you know, you get to learn about your dad. And it was very weird.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I gotta ask. Cause, I mean, just like, you're 17, living at this woman you don't know's house.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

All of a sudden.

[Denise]

And.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And can you unpack some of the mixed emotions with this? Cause you mentioned the fear. You mentioned the confusion.

[Denise]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You mentioned, you know, perhaps this isn't what you expected it was going to be.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I. But I also imagine there's some excitement about, like, maybe I will get to.

[Denise]

Yeah. I thought I would get answers. I did think that it was so kind. I thought they couldn't possibly lie to me, you know. Yeah. So I did. I did a visit on my own, and it was very. He was very emotional. He was crying and stuff. And I thought, oh, here's this. So I. The first memory. Memory that I have without the. The other ones that I do that. But my first memory as, like, an adult, you know, kind of standing in front of him is that he was emotional. And that was so. Such a stark contrast. Right. From this monster that I've heard that he is. I, you know, hugged him and all that, and he was telling me, you're so beautiful. All these kind of things. He was so excited to talk to me. He was very, very, like, intense in asking me questions about myself and my life and. And I probably shared too much. Right. You know, because I felt comfortable and I felt safe at first. And then the Second time that I met with Denise, it was introduced to me that now you have a sister. And I'm like, oh, okay, I didn't know. And then it's like, actually, you have a couple. And I'm like, what's going on? And I'm just learning. And then it's like, do you want to meet her? And so it's like, now all of a sudden, boom, we're getting into that. And it was so much happening as, do you want a tattoo? Yes, I do want a tattoo. I guess. So. It was a lot of like, yeah, I got a. Got a dragon tattoo because I knew he would like it. And I was just like, ah, I got a dragon. Now we're all dragon family.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can I ask you, what's the thing with dragon?

[Denise]

I think it's the ninja thing. Yeah, it has to be. He's very into that culture. There was a lot of them around Denise's home. A lot of, like, Chinese type of artifacts and different things. And, like, she had such a soft heart. I feel so bad. I. I actually consider her one of his victims. But it was just a lot of, like, processing stuff and then going, like, I started to get more freedom in the home, and that's when I started, like, digging through things. So I don't know if that answers the question. Is that answering it correctly?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It definitely does.

[Denise]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's this kind of, like, weird mixed bag and just how bizarre it is. Like, we. You know, I grew up with my sisters, right? Like, we grew up together.

[Denise]

I was the older sister. They were the youngest sisters.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Being 17, and then suddenly having a sister who's, you know, not a baby is just another.

[Denise]

She was an adult with a kid at this point, and it was just like, oh, okay. And then through her, I learned about other, you know, possible children and stuff, and then, like, getting that freedom to, like, be in the home, because I would stay with her for a couple days, and then there would be, like, the end was, like, this visit, Right. This culmination to a visit. And in meeting her children and stuff, too, I felt like, oh, they're very welcoming. It's going really, really well. But it was really quickly that it was almost like, okay, you've, you know, met us in total, like, three times. So you ready for the, you know, the cult? Like, are we doing the cult? You know? I'm serious. It was very quickly, like, okay, like, I needed to say this prayer thing that I was like, what? Like, she had this prayer thing that was like, oh, I'm gonna Teach it to you. And I'm like, I don't wanna learn that. But again, I don't feel like I can say no. I'm in this woman's home. She's being nice to me. I don't know what the consequences with him. Cause she very much. I watched her. They talked a lot. I don't know how they did and how much phone access he had, but they were constantly in communication. Was there. So that was strange. And it was like, here, talk to him. So I'm also like. Like, it's all like, he's so invested immediately in my life and. But it was really quickly in that. It was like, these are the things that he wants you to do. Like, right down to changing my diet. I. You know, like, about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, what did he want you to change?

[Denise]

Yeah. So apparently I was a kid, and I was. I was trying to lose weight, and this is a slim fast era to date myself, right? And so I was like, I'm gonna have slim fast with my. I'm gonna do slim fast instead. I'm gonna choose slim fast in the morning, and then I'm gonna have a dinner. And it was like, oh, that's garbage. You need to stop eating that. Oh, you shouldn't be eating fast food. Oh, you're gonna eat healthy. And Denise is gonna prepare your meals. Oh, she's gonna do smoothies with you. I mean, it was just like, immediate stuff. And then it was like, oh, we're gonna give you this stuff that you have to take home and prepare, and I wanna see your health get better. And I was like, oh, okay. You know, like, I don't have a blend. What are you talking about? I'm living on a friend's couch. Like, what do you mean? And stuff. So it was very, like, fast and quick. Like, we're giving you all this stuff, and we want to start, like, initially, it's, like, changing things about me. Like, right now we're going to start changing things about me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And there's, like, a level of control there.

[Denise]

Oh, yeah, yeah. My hair didn't, like, the streaks in my hair. What color were they? They were blonde, and my hair was red, which should have been right up his alley, you know, but it was like, it was too much, apparently. It was. You know, I just needed to be my natural self. And. And the dragon tattoo was, like, a big hit, so I felt accepted, you know, like, ah, look, we all have these dragons, which I gotta. I'm gonna say I found out later, I'm pretty heavily tattooed now. I found out later in life that the guy Vinny, that put my tattoo on while he was smoking his Newport in Flint, he put my dragon on backwards and upside down, which is actually a symbol of bad luck. Yeah, Vinny, get it to. You're probably not in business anymore, Vin, but I remember going to a tattoo artist years later and he said, why would you put a bad omen on yourself? And I said, what are you talking about? And that's when he explained it because he did a lot of, you know, Chinese artwork. And he was like, no, this whole thing is. So I like marked myself with. And he never corrected me either. So how much do you know about Asian culture? You know, I'm sorry, I'm just a daughter getting my digs in.

[Lena]

No, can you tell us more about the cult?

[Denise]

Yeah, we want to know about the cult. Yeah, the cult. Yeah. So the Cathalians were a peaceful Nazi esque belief system that I was told is just predates thousands of years. And it's kind of like this like Buddhist Nazi type of like vibe, right? Like you have to give your whole being to the Thal Kaspar or so it's like it says actually that which shall not be named. Which years later. I remember watching Harry Potter and I was like, isn't that what they say for Voldemort? And I was like, that's so weird. That's totally witchcraft stuff, right? Because my dad used that back in the 90s. And so it's. Yeah, it's like this Buddhist meshing oneness type thing. But he was what he called the Samian Lord, right? So he's like the most advanced enlightened individual in the Cathol. Sorry, I'm trying to. It's so bizarre. But he was the most enlightened one and then I was the Samian Lord princess if I wanted to take that on, which was I guess like I was supposed to like take on the followers afterwards and. Yeah, I know. So you need inherited a cult. Oh yeah. I could have. I could have been the Samuel princess. And by the second visit he wanted me to bow to him and I was supposed to do this greeting. So like the second time I meet him, right? Because Denise has been prepping me for this moment. The second time I meet him he won't hug me at first. He stands in front of me and he tells me this, you know, this greeting that I was supposed to, you know, wash it by you or whatever it was. I don't remember the word. I probably just blocked it out, which is probably better it's probably a curse or something. But I had to bow to him. And then once I said the greeting properly because he kept correcting me. And so then. And then I do the. Finally, I must have pronounced it correctly, and I bow. And that's when he was like, oh, you know anyone? So, like, the second time I see him face to face, I've already been instructed, like, I have to bow to him because he is my ruler. He's not my dad now. He's my Samian Lord.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you're thinking, I'm 17. I'm going to connect with my incarcerated father.

[Denise]

Yeah. And I Now you're a princess. And I'm getting, like, roped into a cult that I'm a princess of that I guess I had already been deified and I didn't know that that was taking place. Yeah. Which I think is so ironic. Right. Because so many times, like, I've never listened to anything except this interview that he did. And I think it was the 80s. I get it was given to me on a VHS, so I think you guys probably will know which one I'm talking about. He's very young. He's wearing, like, a blue hoodie in it. That's the only thing I've ever listened to. I never watched anything like Discovery Channel, like, none of it. But I have seen articles where he mocks this thing with the cult and that. And I think it's really important for the listeners to know that was real. That was very real. There was people that were in it. Denise's home had a shrine, like a physical altar in it where she put food offerings on it and prayed to him. I saw that. I witnessed that. My sister Carrie witnessed it. We were a part of seeing that. We were both given religious information. There was followers that would send gifts and stuff. So he can say and laugh and mock, and they can all say and laugh and mock. I know it to be true, and there's other people that know it to be true. And I hope that they step forward and validate that, because that's how we undo the lies here. Right. Like, that's the goal. We're gonna stop the lying in its tracks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, I'm gonna tell you, and we're gonna go back to your story in a minute. But I'm so glad you said that. And I remember when Kevin and I started looking into the. This, the big joke was Crystal thinks he's a ninja.

[Denise]

You know, that's like, how are this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the more we looked into it, the more that Validated that. But also, it got weirder.

[Denise]

It's weirder than ninjas. Gets weirder than ninjas. Yeah, it goes into a whole cult and everything. Yeah. Followers. The Temple of Joran Ka. Like, it's a lot. Yeah. The. Pretty sure the temple was her home because I. Because there was, like, this stuff in the basement, you know, with ninja weapons around it. It had, like, this. I'm assuming. I don't know a lot about the culture, but it was like pieces of an armor, right? And like I said, there was, you know, like a. Like a. It looked like a shrine. Carrie described it better when she said altar. She's like, it was an altar. There was food on it, you know, And I was like, oh, yeah, there was an apple. Like, she would put food offerings, and she had these special things that she would burn. And there was pictures of him in karate outfits and stuff. You. And different, like, accommodations and things that he had acquired in prison along with his artwork. I myself. Oh, I'm so glad we're doing this. I forgot about this. Oh. Oh, Fred. I got a Buddhist sculpture, incense burner from him that he made in prison that I was supposed to put my prayer offerings on. And then in a blind rage, when I was, like, 27, I smashed. Smashed it to pieces. I held on to it for years, and I finally was like, I don't want this evil crap in my home. And I smashed it. But, yeah, he made this, like, Buddhist type of thing, and you could open the top of it up, and then in the hands, there was this incense thing that I was encouraged to burn offerings on. Oh, I'm so glad we're doing this, guys. It is. Yeah. There's so many things I've just, like, pressed down to survive, you know? But, yeah, I do want to ask.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You, Buddhist Nazi, like, yeah, yeah.

[Denise]

Where's the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I hear where the Buddhism is coming in.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Where's the Nazism?

[Denise]

The racism? The racism and the homophobia and all types of stuff like that. That's. That's where that comes in.

[Lena]

Kinzu even wrote a book on his bizarre beliefs. It's called the Sacred Realve. The Ancient Wisdom of the Casal People. He describes himself as the Ami Samyad, or Reverend Father, a gifted genius who can restore and reveal the divine teaching of the Cathal. Shockingly, this work is out of print. If anyone's got a copy, hit us up. I think we could all use a good laugh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I wanted to ask you, Elena, just, you know, we're talking about this, and you mentioned the Nazism combined with Buddhism, which might surprise some people, not two, I guess, belief systems that you normally hear together. Let's unpack the Nazism side of that.

[Denise]

It was pretty clear to me from the very first time meeting him at 17 again, that Fred was racist. The comments that he made in the prison about other prisoners, I'm not gonna say them. Part of me thought that it was about, like, being in prison and having, you know, that and like the homophobic statements and stuff that he made. But I thought, okay, well, you've been in prison. And so, you know, like, I mean, especially back then, the idea of prison culture is like, oh, you gotta join gang and do all these kind of things, right? So I assumed that it was that. But then when I read the. The Th. Kaspar, I think that's how you say it. When I read that, there was a lot of stuff about like, purity and oneness and stuff that I'm like, ah. So like, based on what I know, right? About like, even me mentioning that I had, you know, dated a black guy and that being like, oh, you don't do that. Like, you know, what are you doing? You know, mixing with that. Yeah. And so it was like. But the way that it was approached was like, that's taboo.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Once again, Lena's story is backed up by Temujin's own record with the Michigan Department of Corrections. We will likely talk about that more in depth at some point. But let's just say Kenzu has a long history of racist incidents. At his commutation hearing, he claimed he's not a racist and that the incidents were either individuals being racist to him, him, or wacky misunderstandings. But those who've interacted with him tell a very different story.

[Denise]

And so then when you read the religious information and he's talking about this purity and this oneness and all that, and you know that he's racist and that then you can. You can like read it out. Like, okay, wait a second. Like, this is a lot about keeping it within the sacred line, sacred lineage stuff that I'm like, this is really akin to the Nazi ideologies. But we're presenting it with like, our approach is just peace. Like, we just don't let them in. We just do that instead, you know?

[Kevin Greenlee]

New Age Nazis.

[Denise]

Yeah, New Age, like, like Buddhist Nazi, I guess, is just. Yeah, like. And, you know, I don't know if he still holds that belief system. He says that he never did. But I mean, it's in the religious information.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's also in his files.

[Denise]

It's in his.

[Kevin Greenlee]

His files from prison. I want to ask you. Unpacking that a little, you know. So did he.

[Denise]

So he.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He actually took issue with you dating a black man?

[Denise]

Yeah. Wow. He did. Yeah, he took issue with that. He had really strong opinions about my aunts. My aunts are Hispanic. So my mother was the white child in a Hispanic family. Right. So my grandmother had married a Hispanic man. She had two prior children with him. And so my aunts are both very dark skinned Hispanic. And all my cousins as well. My mom was my grandma's affair, you know, type of situation. And so my mom was born with a white father, so she grew up a white girl in this household. So he had really strong opinions about my aunts and stuff.

[Lena]

Lena told us that kinzu would even use slurs to refer to her aunts. We are not going to repeat this one on the show, but it is an offensive term for Mexicans and Mexican Americans.

[Denise]

Because he had met, you know, Ben, I believe one in particular, that he had an interaction with my aunt, that he had really strong opinions about her and her Hispanic heritage.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And just to be very clear, because people may be confused by this, because he goes by the name Temujin Kenzo now, but he is very much a white person.

[Denise]

Oh, yes, he is white. And in fact, he, to my understanding, is race hopped as well. So he went through a phase with my mother. And this is according to what my mother shared with me, where he, you know, I. I grew up knowing he was German, so I was told he was German. Right. And that I was Scottish and German. Scottish on my mother's side and German. And then there was a time period where I think he was leaning into, like. I don't want to say Hispanic, but it was something along those lines of like, he has darker skin and he tans well and different things. And that's because of this heritage. I can't remember. So I don't want to say exactly which one it is because I want to be honest that I don't remember exactly which one it was. But something I saw years ago was that he had. Or. Or can I say Paula? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Paula. He or Paula, whoever has access to that Facebook account, had written, just a Scottish boy, you know, wants to be part of the hills and stuff. And my mom, when I shared that with her, was like, what are you talking about? He's not Scottish. And I was like, I'm aware. But apparently he is now, you know, so I'm aware that he's German, but Now he's Scottish, and now so he's, like, collecting different. Which is crazy because I am Scottish. And so I was like. When I saw that, I was like, are they, like, adopting my personality, like, in my heritage and assigning it to him as if, like, we have that in common. And, like, when did you become Scottish? You, you know, like, you were, like, part of the Cathalian race not that long ago, you know, so. And I don't even know what their skin color is because they're from the land of make believe, so I'm not sure what they look like. Like, you know, but he was part of that sacred line for a while, too. And in the time with my mom where he said he was part of the Council and stuff, everybody, he was forcing everyone to use Asian names and Personas and stuff. So, I mean.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Which is, frankly, bizarre. I just want to say.

[Denise]

Yeah, it's very, very bizarre appropriation of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Asian cultures which he doesn't even, frankly, seem to understand. Happen.

[Denise]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of. I don't know where he's getting it. I don't know if he's read the history. I was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did he ever give you a sense when you were, you know, talking with him? Like, oh, here's where this comes from, or, here's where I developed this interest, or at least.

[Denise]

No. In fact, what's strange is he really tried to downplay it. And he. Himself in front of me, and he. You gotta remember, I knew because of what my mom had shared, I knew a large portion. I learned a lot more in conducting this interview with my mom recently. But there was a lot of stuff I knew about the ninja, stuff about, like, being in trees and, you know, throwing stars and weapons training and different things. So. But he, when he was face to face with me, was, like, almost mocking it, as if, like, oh, you know, I mean, like, just because a guy's into martial arts doesn't mean he's a ninja. But I am operating with, like, I know because I watched my mom have nervous breakdowns recounting the training, stuff that you made her go through that was aching to torture. All you had put this idea on this kid that the council is coming and she has to use these secret names and the Djinn is coming after us or the, you know, different things like that. So he's trying to downplay it to me without even acknowledging that I know differently. So the bold facedness of that was very, like, jarring. Right? Like, I. What? You know, because it's two totally different Experiences one with my dad, one with my mom, you know. But, yeah, he downplayed that a lot to my face. Still continues to. To this day. I think he kind of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It sounds like he was also trying to undermine your.

[Denise]

Oh, yeah, yeah. A lot of undermining a lot of stuff. That she was crazy, that my grandma was a drug addict, that he tried to say my mom was a drug addict, which was wild because my mom has always been very opposed to drugs because of her upbringing. My mom was not a drug addict. I think, like everybody in the, you know, Seattle punk scene back then, she had, like, a couple run ins with some marijuana and stuff. But other than. Was not a drug addict by any means, I grew up in a very. No alcohol, no cigarettes, no anything type of home. So that kind of stuff, when you would say it, it was like, okay, like, I'm seeing the cracks. You know, I'm seeing the cracks and stuff, because what he's saying that she is and what I experienced are different, you know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Was there other stuff about the cult that you remember that.

[Denise]

Like who's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Who is in it, other than Denise?

[Denise]

Yeah. And I guess you were. Yeah, yeah, I got recruited. I don't think I made recruitment by, you know, by the time he was done me. He tried to recruit my sister Carrie as well. I don't know if my other sibling's mom, the one that testified at the clemency hearing, if she was a part of the cult stuff, per se. And I know Denise had shared with me that there were other people like he. I had a picture many, many years ago of him and these other men. And on the back of it was written that these were members of the Temple of. I think it was Jordan Carr or something like that. But it was like, him and a bunch of prisoners, but they were in, like, planes, clothes. Like, I. Yeah, it was like jeans and stuff. So I don't know if the prison, like, is like, once you've been in there so long, you get regular stuff, you know, but it was him and a group of men, and I know that he had to probably have been incarcerated by that point that Denise had shared with me. And then there were people that would mail stuff in. So there. I knew there was supporters because Denise had expressed to me the believers and, you know, like, those of us that follow the Cathalian faith type of stuff. So there was other people. I just didn't have, like, personal meetings with them.

[Lena]

Did he tell you about his. His life and his background before he was incarcerated?

[Denise]

No, just that he was A ladies man. He is so crazy. Based on what my mom lived through, I would never have called that a ladies man. He was into skateboarding. He did tell me he was into skateboarding, he was into martial arts, and that he had a sister and that his mom. I believe his mom was like his grandma that raised him. I think that's what he told me, but I didn't get a lot of backstory about him. He was into art, you know, he liked that kind of stuff, but really focused on the martial arts, which is why I think it's so wild to me that he's so dismissive of that, because that was something that I heard, like how, you know, badass he was and stuff, because of these things. Things. So, yeah, it's weird because he's trying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To downplay it to you, but also.

[Denise]

Yeah, like, yeah, like, it's like you're. I'm inflating my ego and I'm telling you, like, oh, yeah, you know, I mean, I could take anybody down type of stuff. But, you know, you only use that when you need to. Meanwhile, you know, I'm remembering stories about my mom, you know, that I'm like, did she need that because she got the wrong groceries that day? Or. But he would. So he would downplay and also, like, upplay it at the same time. But he didn't really share a lot of personal details with me. It was almost like a domestic violence relationship where you're getting, like, love bombed or something. And it's like, I just want to know about you. I want to know about you. And. And then, like, you know, I'm sharing different stories of, like, different abusive things that I went through. My mom was very unhealed when she raised me, so there was physical violence and abuse and stuff in my home. Absolutely. I think she just really struggled with seeing, you know, Minnie Fred's face in front of her. And. And I've forgiven her for that. I've forgiven a lot of people. I've had to in the course of this. But when I would share stuff with him about me, it was like, oh, let's invest in that. Right, so we don't ever have to go back. And, like, I want to ask questions, but it's, like, always diverted when I. When I would ask them. And I imagine at such a young.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Age that love bombing feels good to.

[Denise]

Yeah, like, I'm sharing. Yeah. My. My parents, when they got divorced, were so mindlessly in their own stuff, you know, and I was kind of just left out. Like, I didn't I couldn't go back to my stepdad. He's not my dad anym. I guess because they got a divorce. My mom is going through all of this stuff. I, at the time was living on a friend's couch. So especially, like, I started this process with my mom. We get into an altercation. I'm living on my friend's couch, so I don't even have, like, parents anymore. I don't see my siblings. I'm a literally homeless teen at this point. And Denise and Fred are like, on the other side, like, hey, we're here for you. While also being like, I'm terrified of you guys. And I don't know that I want this because it was so fast. I mean, it was so, like I said, love bombing thing, like, so quickly. I'm just getting hit with it to the point where it felt very overwhelming. And because demands were like, immediately made out of my behavior, I needed to change. I needed to bow. I needed to become part of this religion. I need to do martial arts. I need to exercise. I need to. It was just like, I felt so overwhelmed. I think it only lasted for like two months before he exploded on me. And that's where those. Those letters that you guys. I did see a comment that somebody said things I did while listening to the letters, and they listed like a whole bunch of gardening, you know, And I was like, this is how it felt reading em. I could only imagine, like, you were able to probably build a deck in the time that it took to get through some of the hate and vitriol that was spewed at us. When that relationship got fractured, it was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was upsetting to read. So I was thinking, I can understand. Everyone loses their temper, says something harsh, really may be unforgivable to even their own child.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To sustain that level of anger.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Writing.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Pretend not speaking. Writing.

[Denise]

No, writing. Writing. And then send it so many times that you could have stopped. And you were like, actually, let's add another paragraph. I mean, that's impressive.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I don't think I have to tell you this, but I felt like the goal was not to convey hurt or to say, you really hurt me.

[Denise]

No, the goal was. It was dismantled 100%. I. I actually considered suicide after. Yeah, I had attempted once because of this stuff. It's okay. You know, I hope that he can hear this. Actually, part of me helps that he can verbally listen, because I think that's important to know that you consistently showing up in my life like that as a kid and doing it the way that you did, with so much violence and hate, made me think, I'm never going to get away from this. You know, luckily, I didn't. You know, it didn't work. And by God's grace, it didn't work. Yeah, it did put both me and Carrie into a place where we felt like we're never gonna escape this, you know, and it's just getting worse and worse. And that's when I went into hiding again. I, like, literally wouldn't use my name or anything after that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Backing up with what happened with that. I guess I want to ask you. So, you know, as you said, all this is happening so quickly, and it's, you know, you're getting the kind of. The good feelings of the love bombing, but you're also like, yeah, you know, maybe there's.

[Denise]

Seeing the cracks. Yeah, there's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's something wrong here. And I imagine that prompts confusion and you want to kind of, like, learn more so you can go forward almost.

[Denise]

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I. So I. I felt like I was trying. I was trying to gather information also. Right. Because I can't talk to my mom. She's so emotional. Emotionally broken by this. I'm getting answers from Denise that are clearly scripted answers. I'm getting nothing, really from Fred except a bunch of expectations and nobody else in my life. And though he's mentioning these people, like, family members, like his sister or, oh, your cousin. So. And so. And this, you know, and he's, like, saying stuff. It's almost like these were people that he had acquired along the course of. And they. And they're going to come meet you and they're going to tell you this. And. But. But it's like I've never heard any of these names. I've never heard of any of these people before. And he's speaking to me as if I should know who they are because, like, he. I was given a family tree or something that I just didn't research properly. And I later learned that they are, like, followers, you know, so that was when I. When I discovered that years later, I was being told, like, it's family. And I think I'm learning about stuff only to find out that these people are literally people that are just along for the ride, like supporters and. And things. They're not physically related to him. They're not any of those kind of things. So it was like. Like I. I sometimes, even now I struggle, like, the information that I have that I'm like, oh, I know this to be true for him. Do I really know it to be true. His whole entire life is built on a foundation of storytelling to, like, navigate the reaction that he wants from people. So the things that he tells me that happened or this or that, I don't know any of them to be real, because as life has gone on, I just keep uncovering that I was. Even. What I thought I learned about him was still not real.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, are those followers also aware of the really rampant homophobia, racism?

[Denise]

Yeah, I. I wonder, right? Because what I've learned about him is you can sit in front of him, and if you are there to help him, right, you get a different version of him than if you're there to challenge him. I saw that in myself when I first met him, and I was this excited kid. And then by the fourth visit. The fourth visit, it is when he, like, crushed my finger, you know, I left in a few. That's where the letter came from. You know? Then when we got home from that visit, he was waiting with a phone call where he just screamed and berated, you know, Carrie and I. I mean, it took four visits for everything to go so south. And so I think what he's doing is if somebody's like, oh, I'm taking an interest in this, right? Like, we get somebody that's like, I'm a truth seeker, and I'm going here. And they come across this prepackaged story, right? And they don't bother to ever look past that. Just. Just the regurgitated things, the regurgitated talking points. And they were like, I want to meet with them because I want to help him. I think he's innocent. Then they show up. They're going to get this version of him. Now, I would love, as a fly on the wall, to sit on the other side and be like, yeah, try to force him to use your pronouns or this or that and see how that plays out. Tell them that you think he might have killed some Scott. See how that goes for you, you know, because the minute that you challenge the narrative that everybody has been forced to, you know, believe there's a completely different side to him that comes out. So I don't know that they're aware, because I think he's playing along. He gets what he wants out of him. Like, I saw somebody recently so shocked she, you know, had a LGBT type of flag thing on the profile, had released a book, and I was like, are you kidding me? What are you aware of? Of, you know, like, how he feels about homosexuality in general. And. Yeah, and I'm sure He can say, oh, I've changed. I've changed. But I don't believe that that kind of hate and vitriol, when you continuously attack people for having a different point of view. I think he just knows how to stifle it to get what he wants out of people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I don't think.

[Denise]

I think we.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We hit the racism, but he also has a hatred of people.

[Denise]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have a family member through him that is homosexual. And the things that he has said about him are alarming, you know, like that he's impure and it's disgusting and different things, so. And this is somebody that is very close to him that you, like. He was speaking about at the time like a teenager, you know, so, yeah, I'm shocked that that's even just some of the following, But I think that's where we see the depth of the deception. Right. And that people don't know unless they bother to just ch. Challenge and push back a little bit, I'm sure. Well, you guys have already been on the other end of that.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Denise]

Welcome to the club. We're all part of it now, you know. So what's wild is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, we were actually. We didn't get the interview with him. We reached out and we wanted to be honest.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We didn't want to hide the ball. We wanted to say. We read the court. We read the entire transcript.

[Denise]

We.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know how we phrased it, but we wanted to be. We wanted to say we're coming from a different perspective than you used to. We don't want to blindside you and make you. You know, hey, we love you, actually. We think you're guilty.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Want to be like, we may be asking you some harder questions than you're normally getting.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we sort of figured he's not going to respond.

[Denise]

Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, and that would be fine. I mean, that's his choice.

[Denise]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No one has to talk to us. But it was one of those things where, you know, like, it. Basically, they kind of tried to lie about it later where, you know, we were honest about it and they didn't.

[Denise]

Want to talk to us. Oh, I saw that. But, yeah. That you guys were never approached, which I. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Screenshots.

[Denise]

We have screenshots of us reaching out. Yeah.

[Lena]

Yes.

[Denise]

Yeah. Have your cake and eat it, too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But it's interesting. They didn't even want to get in the room with us. They don't want to evangelize to people who are not.

[Lena]

Who have the facts.

[Denise]

Yes. Who have the Facts. So I believe that's why he has run smear campaigns against many, many people over the course of this 30 plus years that I've challenged him. And I believe in my heart that the only reason that people don't even know who I. I am, people don't know who my mom is, is because we hold truth in our hands, right? And I did what was expected of me. You know, I think a lot of people, for me, people always go, well, how come you didn't come forward sooner? People forget I was a kid. I didn't ask any. I didn't date him. I didn't fall into this. I was born into this. And so it's different for me. I have a probably a very unique perspective that I share with a very few select group of people that we were born into this. And so coming forward, I have been TR in fear by him from the time I was 8, actually. I was trained in fear from him. The first time he struck me. The first time he struck me, I was three days old. First time that he hit me, one of many, you know, but so even as an infant, you know, he was hitting me and doing, you know, blowing and choking me and different things like that. And so I think, like, that reaction at 8, like, was my body remembering something. You know what I mean? Remembering, like, I'm terrified right now. I don't, you know, this voice, everything is just throwing me into chaos. And that is a pattern that continued for, you know, many, many years. It's why I stayed away. I stayed away. I went to the clemency hearing because I thought, if anybody can challenge this narrative, it's me and my mom. And that was actually the only time I ever saw a human reaction from him. You know, he was crying when I got up there and actually called out to me and I asked them to stop. I remember the guards turned and pointed at him, you know, But I think the reason he has stayed away from me and my mom is because we hold truth and he can convince everybody else. But we lived this. We lived it. We're the only people that were out in the open world with him like that as far as, like, as his children goes. And my mom is one of his longest victims in the free world. So, you know, we did our job of staying away and not taking reports and never challenging the narrative. But he has never stopped harassing and reaching out and using it as the guise of love. And I think that's something that people need to understand, right? Is that this narrative and, like, people are Only seeing a fraction of it. He gets on air and tells people, you know, I am fighting for my freedom, and it's just everybody's against me. And then turns around and secretly, you know, phone calls and reminds us, I know where you live now. I found you. I sent you a card against your will. I've done this. I've done that. So. So I think that people need to know, like, what are you looking at here? He can say they've never reached out. Nobody's ever tried. That's not true. I know that not to be true. You guys know that not to be true. And he can challenge that. But I think that's why he doesn't challenge me and my mom, you know, because we reside in the truth. And the truth is the one thing that he's not capable of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you are, in a way, a classic example of someone who went from being open to leaving him, even if you. You had qualms open to believing him.

[Denise]

Who then saw some of the reality.

[Lena]

Yeah, I want to jump back to that because you said a moment ago that it only took the fourth visit for things to get really bad. Can you tell us about that fourth visit?

[Denise]

Yeah. So by the fourth visit, Denise had shared with Carrie and I, there was a day where we were at her home, I believe, and Fred was yelling at her. She seemed very upset. She was crying. Crying. And she was, like, very, very distraught. And I remember thinking, like, you know, something is off here. Like, I think she could tell because at this point, I had been expressing like, I really don't want to do this stuff, especially with the, like, learning this second language that I was supposed to learn because there was a language. I'm so glad I mentioned that. Oh, I'm so glad we're doing this. There was a language. Oh. Oh, man. I wish Carrie was here, because she could. Yeah, so we had this. There was these words and language that he had that went with the cult stuff. Right. And I'm going to call it a cult because at the end of the day, it's a cult. It's a cult that went with it. And so we were expected to learn this. And I was expressing to her, like, I was really struggling with this. And though I am not sure at the time if I even believed in God, I know I didn't believe that he was my.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My God.

[Denise]

And so that was like, I'm not on board. And she was having a hard time. And so we. I was having a hard time. We were kind of, like, bonding over that. And Carrie And I, at this point, had uncovered these files in the basement. They were Fred's court notes from the original case with Scott Macklem. And in the margins were these just horribly graphic things written about whoever was testifying at the time. I don't know if I want to repeat them, but, like, you know, haha. Can I say the word? Yes. Okay. All right, so like, haha, dumb whore, stupid slut. You know, like, somebody must have been testifying. Like, you know, this bitch doesn't know what she's talking about. Different things that he had written in the margins that we were like, whoa, this was a murder trial. Yeah. And a. And a rape trial. What's going. And so, like, to see the. The way that he was commenting in his own notes about the people was like, what? Okay, so Carrie and I, being young, you know, and being teens, had this, like, great idea in our head. Like, we're gonna steal these files and we're gonna go to Kinko's, we're gonna make copies. And so we couldn't figure out how to smuggle them because the amount of boxes could fill this room that we're in. It was. It was intense how much stuff there was down there. I think it saved every piece of paper ever that had ever. Like, every art that he had ever done. Everything.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before you get excited, we believe that most of these documents and files have likely been lost. These aren't exactly things anybody wanted to hang on to over the years, which is understandable, given what happened next.

[Denise]

We thought, well, if we get these into the right hands, then, you know, we. We can keep them in there. And so between that confiding in Denise, us sharing our concerns, it was like the perfect storm for us to all do this, like, confiding in each other thing. And Denise shared with us that Fred had broken her arm on a visit. She explained to me that back then they had like, conjugal visits. Something had happened, and he got upset with her and he broke her arm. And so that she was afraid of him. And so us being kids, we're like, hey, he's in prison. Like, you're in the free world. Like, he can't hurt you. He can't do anything. Like, come on, leave him. Leave him thinking, like, we're doing the right thing, we're trying to help her. She was like, I'm going to tell him. I'm going to tell him. He can't treat me like this. And she says, I mortgaged my. My home two times. I believe at that point she said, I mortgaged my home two or three times to pay for his legal fees, his. All of this kind of stuff, you know, Like, I've worked jobs. I've done this. And, like, she's going. I mean, just ranting about how much financial support she had put in, how much emotional support that she was doing, all of his interactions for the temple, all these kind of things, right? She's poured her whole life, Put her whole life on pause for this. And she was just ranting and raving. And so we were like, yeah. I mean, girl power, right? Like, we're all in this together. And so we got all like, yeah, we're gonna go. We're gonna go. And when we went up to the prison, neither Carrie nor I had any idea what was coming through that door. And so we got there, we did this stupid bow and greeting thing. We went and sat down, and it was like, I remember. And I know that people are gonna think I'm crazy, crazy when I say this, but I watched. He turned to me, and his eyes went thump. And they snapped, like, boom, boom. And this different set of eyes was looking back at me with, like, hate, I cannot. And he was like, so you think that you're gonna get her to leave me? And so some point in between that she had shared with him what we were talking about. And. And we were like, oh. And he was like, I heard you been snooping through my things, and what do you think you're gonna find? And, I mean, it was like, we got ambushed in that room. And he like, so there's a guard. When you're in the prison, you're sitting in, like, these rows of chairs. At least in Kinchlow, there was these rows of chairs, and there was a guard in front, and he reached over to me and he grabbed. And, like, we're yelling and yelling and yelling at this point. Like, not. We're yelling in whisper, yelling back and forth, back and forth. And he reaches over, and he goes, whoom. And he squeezes my finger, finger. Like, boom. And popped my finger. I don't know if he knew that he did it, but the amount of force that he used just sitting there, I was, like, so shaken, and I was freaking out. And then something in me, like, kind of snapped, and I was like, I actually don't have to put up with this. You know, I'm not your wife. I'm not anybody. And so I started to yell at him and was like, you know, I don't want to see you again. Like, I don't want to talk to You. You're a liar. All these types of things. And stormed out of the prison den, remained in there for a while, and when she came out, she was crying. I can't remember if Carrie and I left together or if it was, like, in intervals. That was such a, like, traumatic day. I'm really, honestly shocked. The guard did not step in. I have no idea why he didn't because of the way that we were, like, all going at it. And then we have this massive drive home. We're in Kinslow in the up. Denise is crying, apologizing to us. I'm sorry. You just know how he gets. No, I don't know how he gets. I'm just meeting the man, technically, you know, I've heard how he gets, but now I've experienced it firsthand. And the rage that was in him was just terrifying. I very much then was like, all right. I have a very different opinion of what I've been spewed. What's been spewed to me. Because the hate man. I can't explain that any better. Like, his bright eyes, like, snapped and just darkened. Like. I don't know if that's a thing for, like, sociopaths or something, but it was like, murder eyes. Boom. Popped right up. Totally different. I was gonna say that. Yeah. Yeah. Like, his, like, the color shifted, you know? And it was a totally different man sitting on the other side of me. I knew then what my mom had expressed, like. And then this change would come over him, and I'm like, oh, okay, I've seen it now. I remember, like, getting. We were just crying all the way home. And then we get home, and somehow he had timed it, the drive. Like, he must have just been furious and waiting and waiting every passing hour. And we get in the door, and we. And we're there for, like, 15 minutes, and we get a phone call now. And then it's like, get out of my house. And. And I owed Denise money, I guess, now for feeding me for the supplements, for, like, whatever kind of stuff.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's giving you his vitamin supplements?

[Denise]

Yeah, it was, like, stuff from, like, Meijer, though. And I'm like, I'm not taking these vitamins. Like, I'm not even. These vitamins for, you know, stuff that, like, they had purchased for me, like, my tattoo. Now all of a sudden, I win money for that and different stuff because she took me in and signed for it, and I was like, okay, I'll give you your 70 dol. Like, but at this point now, I owe him hundreds, hundreds of Dollars. And he's screaming at me. I've dumped thousands into you girls. Like what? Like, this is. What are you talking about? There wasn't, like, gifts. I wasn't going out on shopping sprees or anything. Like, none of that existed. But in his mind, we owe him now, and we're the enemy, and he hates us. He never wants to speak to us again. We're awful, horrific horse slut children. I mean, this is just a phone call. So when. When you're, you know, when your listeners are, like, doing. Going through, you know, the letter stuff and listening to that, the phone calls were worse because you could spitfire at that point. I think what's crazy is the letters are hateful. Yes. The. The ver. The stuff on the phone will, like, decimate you. I mean, that I was sobbing. I was such a wreck. I didn't know what to think. And the way he mocked me for trying to help Denise was alarming. She'll never leave me. She'll never leave me. She does anything I say, you know, and it was like, okay, we are. Now we're in enemy territory. We should not be here. You know, and so that. Yeah, that was literally. That was the end of it. You know, it was just like, she brought me back home. She was very apologetic. I knew then that she's a victim. He's doing to her what he did to my mom, what he did to my sibling's mom. But I also was just like, I have to get away from her, too, because she's working with him. She's operating with him in this. So. Yeah, yeah, that was my leaving four visits in. Yeah. Yeah. It was a very quick ascension.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm just so sorry that that happened to you. In a sense.

[Denise]

Yeah. Yeah. It definitely shaped things for me, too. I don't think he ever realized that, you know, in the clemency hearing, he went on, he called me all types of things, said I was a porn star, all this type of stuff. It was. Yeah, it was very strange. I believe it was his sister that testified, which I thought, this is so weird. I've never met you. You know, I don't even know you. And I think the thing that, like, as a kid in this. Right. Even just as, like, this is my dad. I'm his biological child. That has always bothered me is that you constantly pointing at my brokenness and saying, oh, she did drugs and, oh, she was a, you know, dancer, and she was all these type of things, and she is slut and never going, what's wrong with my Kid. Why is my kid acting this way, like I'm her father? My heart hurts for my child. My child is broken. What's wrong with her? It's just that, you know, I, at that clemency hearing was not to be believed, because I was believing. I believe his sister said I did porn. I don't know, you guys. I don't know if you guys read through those things, but I believe she did. Yes. She accused me of porn, which is wild. I've never done porn, you know, but I was a dancer. I was just so broken. I mean, it was so. So unbelievably broken. And I don't look at anybody that goes into things like that and go, you probably came from a great home, you know, because I see people like me in those places that are like, I didn't have any control over my whole life. And so in my mind, as a teenager, because I went into the strip club as a teenager, coming out of this experience with Fred, I was in the strip club four months later. That's how fast it was for me, because I could just drink and just drown everything out. I didn't want to remember anything. I just wanted. I think I was suicidal. Not like you put a gun in your mouth, but it was like, I don't care anymore if I die. I don't care. I have nothing to live for. I'm never gonna escape this. I. You know, my mom doesn't really. She can't look at me because of everything that she lived through. I have no place that I belong. I'm a homeless teen. I try to have a relationship with my dad, and now I'm. I mean, there's just so much going on that I think people. It's easy to stand on that. That witness stand, and for him to say, oh, well, she's all these horrible things. But he's never once reached out to me during that except to, like, threaten me to go, I love you. What's going on? You know, what's wrong with you? Like, why are you acting this way? As your dad, why are you acting this way? Yeah, it's like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a weapon. He weaponized it.

[Denise]

Weaponized it. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm not gonna sit here and go, every bad choice I ever made in my life is my dad's fault. But am I, like, a statistic of, like, oh, people from broken homes end up doing broken things? Yeah, absolutely. I am. You know, I give myself grace in that, and that's why I think I've turned my life around. So much. I'm, like, trying to repent for something that's not even mine to repent for. You didn't do anything. No, I didn't do this, you know, But I've spent the past 15 years trying to go back and make it up to victims of this type of abuse. Abuse. Because I feel like that's my obligation. I have to do so much good. I feel like I'm trying to do so much good to undo all of the bad, you know, because he's not going to. So I somehow, like, put it on myself. Like, I have to go fix this with people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think your activism is helping people. I think you're at.

[Denise]

Yeah, I hope so. I do. I hope so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But, gosh, I mean. So that kind of takes us out, out of the sort of initial attempt. Yeah, you know, I guess. I guess one question, unless, Kevin, you had another one, one question would be, I guess, what happened after that? I mean, can you talk us about the intervening years between that and the commutation here?

[Denise]

Yeah. So over the years, he would find ways, which, knowing that I. I kind of just chalked it up to. Denise had admitted to me that there was private investigation. So I was like, it's probably this, right? This is probably what's happening.

[Lena]

Yes, that is correct. The stalking continued. Let's remember for a moment that Lena was not publicly opposing Kinzu. She was not advocating either way. Unlike the public officials or even state witnesses of the trial, she played no part in his conviction. She was trying to live her life. Life. And he still followed her, tracking her from his prison cell. So I think that's where we will stop Part one. There's much more to come in part two, which I believe we're also going to be releasing today. I want to take a moment to really praise Laina for having this conversation with us. It is very brave of her to do this. I also want to say that behind the scenes, we've talked quite a bit with Lena over the last few months, and one thing that has really struck me about her, Anya, is that she is like the bizarro version of her biological father. She is everything he is not. She is very, very smart. Kinsey was not a smart man. She cares about other people. She's funny. She does what she can to help others, including giving this interview.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're absolutely right. Laina is a joy to talk to. And when we're not talking about this horrible situation involving her biology dad, she. It's just. She's just like a fun person, too. So she's, she's a very, very nice, compassionate lady. And I just appreciate she, she didn't have to do this and she did. And it's because she wants the truth out there and because she knows that people are continuously being stalked and victims in this case are continuously being harassed. So I think we should all be grateful for her bravery in this regard. And we hope that it is in some measure cathartic. Cathartic for her and that it's cathartic for her family and that it's cathartic for other victims who went through this and that frankly, it's cathartic perhaps for anyone who's dealt with abuse from their biological family or abuse from a romantic partner or anything like that and felt like, wow, no one believes me. Everyone believes my abuser. I feel like I'm losing my mind. You know, you're not losing your mind. The truth is on your side. And hopefully this gave you some hope.

[Lena]

So that concludes the first part of Lena's interview. We will be releasing part two today as well where we're going to hear a lot more about this disturbing story. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved case crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Lena]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So we want to shout out one of our wonderful sponsors right now and that sponsor is Happy Mammoth. This is a wonderful natural wellness brand. We've been using it and it's been terrific. They're a great solution if you feel like you might be dealing with some hormone disruptors. I mean, that kind of happens to everyone. It's in the air. It's in the food. It's in lots of different products. Products.

[Lena]

So it's really reduced your cravings.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, for me it's. I mean, I get cranin nuts about my cravings. Sometimes I will, you know, suddenly really want Macintosh apples, which aren't even in season, and various other things. We all know I've been stealing a lot of cereal recently, or allegedly, I should say. And so to kind of help beat that, I've been using their hormone harmony supplement. It's just a supplement. You take it a couple of times, you know, couple doses. And I feel like it's boosted my gut health, to be honest. It's also something that women who are in perimenopause or menopause, they can use it and it's gonna reduce your hot flashes. You're gonna have more energy, get to sleep better. So it's really good for women of all ages. But for me, the gut health element of it has been really special. So if you're interested for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order@happy mammoth.com, just use the code mshi at checkout. That's happy mammoth.com and use the code M sheet for 15% off today. We're obsessed with our quint pieces. Is that fair to say?

[Lena]

That's fair to say.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What is Quint?

[Lena]

Quint is a company. It lets you get really high quality clothing for very affordable prices.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors. Competitors. And you're just gonna get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles, but we wanted to update. So we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambry stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses cause like, I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for Years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

[Lena]

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about the, the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.

[Lena]

And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably, if I convince her, take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, I got a beret too because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret. And yeah, I, I just really. Quince is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things, make sure the sizing's right for you. And it's just a great deal for murder sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quint. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quince.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet.