The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: Leyna’s Story: Part Three

Summary

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The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: Leyna’s Story – Part Three

Podcast: Murder Sheet
Hosts: Áine Cain & Kevin Greenlee
Guest: Leyna (daughter of Temujin Kensu, aka Frederick Freeman)
Release Date: October 8, 2025

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Overview

This episode continues the in-depth exploration of the fallout surrounding the murder of Scott Macklem and the conviction of Temujin Kensu (formerly Frederick Freeman), through the perspective of Kensu’s daughter, Leyna. Having bravely spoken out against her father and his supporters, Leyna returns to describe the aftermath of her public statements, the overwhelming listener support she received, the vitriolic backlash from Kensu’s camp, and her emotional journey. The episode also addresses recent developments regarding Kensu’s conduct in prison and serves as both an update and a reflection on the broader issues facing families of high-profile offenders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Leyna’s Return & Listener Support

• Leyna Shares Her Current State

  • Leyna describes life after coming forward as “such a positive experience” due to listener support, calling it “mind boggling” ([04:48]).
  • She emphasizes how strangers rallied to defend her after years of attacks and disbelief.

• Emotional Impact

  • Leyna is visibly moved by the supportive messages from listeners, admitting, “I'd never seen so many strangers step up to our defense… I was just, like, crying. Like, this is so unbelievable.” ([09:51])
  • Recounts being uplifted by people who, for the first time, believed her side of the story:
    “I felt like we didn't have a voice for so long and… they really lifted us up.” ([10:19])

2. Negative Backlash and Threats from Kensu’s Camp

• Immediate Retaliation

  • Days after the episode aired, Kensu and Paula (his supporter/partner) allegedly “doxxed” Leyna and threatened to release her criminal history ([05:12]).
  • Leyna’s fear: “I have kids. What are you doing?...he’s had people…physically come to our residences.” ([05:45])
  • She clarifies, “It was a way to, like, threaten me and let me know, once again, we have your information. We're still watching you…” ([07:34])

• Public Unraveling of Kensu

  • Kensu’s and Paula’s responses were described as “ad hominem attacks… incredibly vicious, mean spirited, seeking to destroy you and your reputation once more” ([16:53]).
  • Leyna notes seeing him portrayed as “an angry, broken man who can't do anything other than continue to lash out at me. You can't even articulate and dissect what I said in a cordial manner. You just go straight to hate and animosity.” ([17:39])

3. The Power of Public Pushback

• Shift in Online Dynamics

  • Listeners and online community members organized to shut down attacks from Kensu’s allies.
    “Somebody in one of the chats that I was in had said, 'You guys have gone through enough. We'll take it from here.'” ([11:10])
  • The hosts noticed a shift as the backlash against Leyna was met with vocal defenses and immediate, widespread support in Facebook groups and on Reddit.

• Exposing the Pattern

  • “Now the bullying was quite public because it was in these Facebook groups. It was all over Reddit. And so people could see this is who this guy really is.” (Kevin, [13:13])

4. Internet Manipulation & Tactics

• Orchestrated Defenses

  • Leyna and the hosts observed suspiciously similar “new Reddit accounts” appearing en masse to defend Kensu and attack detractors ([19:10]).
  • Leyna opines, “It seems like the same person who wrote them…also responding to themselves in a very timely manner.” ([19:36])

• Listener Solidarity

  • Online supporters described as giving Kensu’s camp “a taste of their own medicine” by countering misinformation and harassment campaigns ([21:22]).

5. Reflections on Advocacy and Responsibility

• Judging Advocacy Work
  • Leyna and the hosts urge those interested in wrongful conviction cases to “look at all of the evidence… sit down and do the deep dive” before backing someone’s innocence campaign ([23:26]).
  • Áine: “I'm a big believer in everyone in true crime who's a creator has a really strong responsibility to their audience and to cases in order to get it right as much as possible.” ([24:59])

Notable Quote

“Sometimes this is fueling the ego of these people and it's making them become more powerful… and so then they go behind closed doors and they're terrorizing people.”
— Leyna [25:26]

6. Prison Developments: Kensu’s Contraband & Punishment

• Recent Developments

  • Michigan DOC searched Kensu’s cell and found contraband, including a Wi-Fi enabled device, leading to disciplinary actions ([26:51]).
  • Leyna felt relief and validation, stating, “I had a cheerful celebration… especially because we've tried…to reach out to the warden and say, hey, he's harassing us. I think he's got a phone… and felt like it was falling on deaf ears. So knowing that people took this seriously… I feel incredible.” ([27:12])

• Ongoing Concerns

  • Questions remain about how Kensu acquired digital devices and whether others aided him, with the hosts expressing interest in investigating further ([29:00]).

7. Advice to Others Facing Similar Circumstances

• Advice on Speaking Out

  • Leyna stresses the importance of coming forward “when you’re ready,” highlighting the emotional toll: “For me, I learned to process my trauma through addiction… I’ve realized that though, I think I’m really healed…I don’t like the word triggered, but you can get triggered again. And so be prepared for that if you are going to speak.” ([31:44])
  • “If you even survive trauma and abuse and you're here to talk about it, you can't be forced or pushed until everything is the right time…Just be prepared. It's a wave, and that's okay. Give yourself grace while you're riding it.” ([34:55])

• On Anonymity and Support

  • Leyna underscores the hosts’ sensitivity, saying, “Not everybody has to [use their real name or go on camera]… these are two great people. If you want to put it in their hands… they are not going to harass and threaten you. It's very different experience than Fred's camp. It's been very empowering.” ([40:18])

8. Temujin Kensu’s Name Change

• The Legal Aspect
  • Discussion around Kensu allegedly reverting to his birth name “Frederick Freeman,” possibly for legal reasons. Leyna wryly comments, “It's kind of great to see him get knocked down a peg or two. Whether he's trying to do it for a public image, it doesn't matter... it wasn't Temujin who committed these crimes. It was Fred.” ([35:12])

9. Gratitude to the Community

• Leyna expresses deep appreciation for the hosts and listeners, crediting community support for helping her and other victims find their voice and feel safe.

  “I can't even explain how much our families appreciate you guys... and everything that you guys have done, I sing your praises all the time. I love you guys.” ([37:02], [38:16])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Impact of Support:

  • “I felt like we didn't have a voice for so long and… they really lifted us up.” – Leyna ([10:19])

• On Facing Public Attacks:

  • “Here's this guy. He's like, supposed to be my dad, just exploiting, like, every horrific thing that happened to me for his benefit.” – Leyna ([06:47])

• On the Public Backlash:

  • “Now, the bullying was quite public… people could see this is who this guy really is.” – Kevin ([13:13])

• Advice for Victims:

  • “If you even survive trauma and abuse and you're here to talk about it, you can't be forced or pushed until everything is the right time…Give yourself grace while you're riding it.” – Leyna ([34:55])

• On Name Change:

  • “Doesn't matter if you're Temujin or Fred. I hate you either way.” – Leyna quoting a listener ([36:45])

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Important Timestamps

| Time | Segment | |-----------|-------------------------------------------------------| | 04:35 | Leyna’s check-in: Initial reactions, positive support | | 05:12 | Negative backlash; threats from Kensu and Paula | | 09:51 | Listener pushback, emotional impact | | 11:10 | Online solidarity; shifting online dynamics | | 16:53 | Breakdown of Kensu and Paula’s retaliatory tactics | | 19:10 | Observing coordinated Reddit attacks | | 23:26 | Call for responsible journalism in true crime | | 26:51 | Michigan DOC finds Kensu’s contraband; family’s relief| | 31:36 | Leyna’s advice to others in similar positions | | 35:12 | Discussion on name change from Temujin Kensu to Fred | | 37:02 | Gratitude for host and listener support | | 40:18 | Advice on anonymity for future whistleblowers |

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Tone and Style

The conversation is candid, supportive, and raw, with Leyna expressing a spectrum of emotions—from fear and trauma to gratitude and hope. The hosts, Áine and Kevin, use a careful, evidence-based tone, showing empathy while encouraging responsible journalism and activism in true crime. The episode blends somber realities with uplifting moments as Leyna and the community reclaim agency against abuse and misinformation.

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Summary Prepared for Listeners Who Missed the Episode
This episode offers an inside look at what happens when a key witness and relative of a convicted murderer challenges the dominant narrative, faces public and private retaliation, and finds strength and support in unexpected places. Listeners gain valuable insight into the psychological toll of confronting family secrets, the risks of online advocacy and misinformation, and the crucial importance of thoughtful journalism in the true crime community.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Well, of course. Over the last few months, we've done a number of episodes on the case of Temujin Kinzu, who, as you may recall, is also known as Fred Freeman. Mr. Kinzu or Mr. Freeman, he killed Scott Macklem in a parking lot in Port Huron, Michigan, all the way back in 1986. In the years since then, he's been able to manipulate people into blocking, believing falsely that he is innocent. And when people don't fall into line with how he wants them to believe about things, he uses threats and intimidation in order to try to get them to fall in line. We've also reported a lot on that, including some intimidation and threats against some women he has raped. He's also used threats and intimidation against his own family members. And you may recall recently we had on his daughter Lena, who spoke very openly about all of that. And you also may recall that she, and frankly, Anya and I were a bit nervous about the sort of reaction she might get in some quarters from daring to go public with that story. So since then, we've also gotten some emails from a lot of you wondering, how's Laina doing? So I think this would be a great time to find out.

[A]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[B]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[A]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[A]

And this is the murder of Scott Macklem. The Guilt of Temujin Kenzu, Lena's story, Part three. Well, Laina, we want to welcome you back on the Murder Sheet. Thank you so much for, for coming back for a third time.

[C]

Thank you for having me. I love you guys.

[A]

Well, we love you too, and we're so happy to see you. It's really, it's a treat on a personal level and we're, we're really excited to check in.

[B]

So how are you doing?

[C]

How are you? Yeah, I mean, I'm doing great now. Doing really well, actually. This has been such a positive experience for us, so I'm excited to share that with the listeners because they've been so supportive. It's. It's pretty mind boggling.

[A]

Well, we're really, really glad to hear that.

[B]

And yeah, maybe before we get to the positive stuff, has there been anything negative? Have you heard anything from your father?

[C]

Yeah, so pretty much right out of the gate, I want to say, what, a couple days maybe after the episode came out, he went on a rant. I couldn't see it because I have him and Paula blocked. I believe it was in that gallery is where it started. And that was really scary. I will say, when I spoke to you guys and got the news, especially about them doxxing me, I was so afraid that I actually like dropped down on my knees and was crying in my room.

[B]

Because you actually posted your full name.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, and I did. Which to me that my first thought was like, I have kids. What are you doing? You know, knowing that in the past he's had people, like physically come to our residences. That was my immediate thought. You Know, which didn't end up happening, obviously, but the fear of that, like, is this where we're headed again? Especially now, because I'm a mother of five kids. And so that was. That was really scary. But luckily I spoke with my husband and friends and family and stuff, and finding out that they didn't post my full address was comforting. But I know there was something, like Paula had threatened about releasing my criminal record, which would have my address better. Also kind of confirmed for me, like, oh, I see you guys are still following me and trying to dig up any dirt you can. The stuff that he said was pretty horrendous. It was really hard to bite my tongue and not, like, unblock them and go in and argue on my own defense, because so much of it was so out of line and blatantly untrue or the things that he was accusing me of and the behaviors are things that I had already taken claim for in life. And I thought it was really saddening to see that. Here's this guy. He's, like, supposed to be my dad, just exploiting, like, every horrific thing that happened to me for his benefit, to mock me through it, you know, which I. I knew there was going to be fallback. I guess I didn't realize how much that was going to affect me when it did happen.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I thought it was wild that I. And you. And I talked about this at one point. I remember. But it was. They were, oh, we're gonna release her criminal history.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You had talked about that on the program.

[C]

Yeah, I know yourself. I did, yeah. I. I tell on myself about a lot of stuff in my life, like the drug stuff or the Springer thing. Like, it's not unknown that it. It wasn't the slut sisters, though. It was Jerry's biggest fan. So if you're gonna, you know, give me a hard time about it, let's get the titles right, you know, But I think that. And, you know, the claims that I had multiple felonies and it's like, I think part of the reason that they can't release my crim, because it doesn't back up any of their claims of what I did, you know, I think that it was just a way to, like, threaten me and let me know, once again, we have your information. We're still watching you. That kind of stuff, which did work. I will say it worked. It scared me. Didn't scare me enough to stop talking, though, so I think that's pretty awesome. I think it made me a little bit for me, it confirmed a lot of stuff, like that I had felt that they were still watching us and that there's not really been the rest. Like, when we get these periods of rest where it seems like he's not watching, that he still has somebody keeping an eye on us. So I think in it, in its own way, it was therapeutic to know that he's still doing that, because then it doesn't make me feel like I'm losing my mind or am I too worried, you know, or it's consuming me.

[A]

Yeah. Their response was truly, like, almost confirming a lot of what you were saying.

[C]

Yeah, I saw that in the screenshots where people were saying that back, and that was beautiful to see that people were defending. Like, she literally said that you were gonna do this. Like, you're confirming everything. And I think that him doing that did solidify, you know, the stuff that we talked about in that first episode of. He's going to freak out. He's gonna lash out at me. There's gonna be a consequence for this, and you're gonna see this different side of him that he doesn't really let out as much. So the pushback was just incredible. I don't think I've.

[B]

How did that feel? Because for years, he can say whatever he wants and people support him, and now he's saying things and it's changed. How does that make you feel to see people pushing back?

[C]

Honestly? Well, I will say it moved me to tears. And happy ones. Happy ones for sure. Because I'd never seen so many strangers. Sorry if I get emotional. I'd never seen so many strangers step up to our defense. In fact, I have seen a lot of strangers say really horrific things about us, because over the years, when I would check the Facebook and see some of the things that he would be ranting about, the way that people would talk without knowing us about. I can't believe your, you know, family would let you rot for a crime you didn't commit. They're awful people. You know, all the things that were said over us that weren't true because they just didn't know the other side. Seeing this flip happen almost overnight was huge. And the response from the listeners, I. When. When I read that stuff, I was just, like, crying. Like, this is so unbelievable. I can't believe these people are so, like, happy to hear this side of it. I felt like we didn't have a voice for so long and. And they really lifted us up. That was. It gave me a lot like it. While I was afraid of Certain things, it gave me a lot of power in the sense of feeling like I am doing the right thing by doing this.

[B]

Before we started recording, you mentioned one thing in particular that you saw in a chat. Can you talk about that?

[C]

Yeah. Somebody in one of the chats that I was in had said, you guys have gone through enough. We'll take it from here. And they were part of the crew that was going in and defending us. Like your listeners. I know people from the Viper pet, I think some other just random citizens, maybe the people that came forward and to see how they collectively were working together to go in and push back against, you know, the many, many rants that Paula continued to make, the stuff that Fred continued to say, like, every time that they wanted to lash out, there was this second group that came in and said, we're going to start fighting back now. And that made me cry. Like, I was so happy. I know it sounds like I'm crying a lot, because I have been crying a lot, but it's like a mixed bag. One minute I'm like, depression weeping, and then the next I'm, like, overjoyed. But just to know that people believe us, I think I was so afraid of people not listening because the constant narrative is that he's innocent, and anybody who said anything otherwise got decimated in the process. So. Yeah.

[A]

Did you expect this at all?

[C]

No. No. In fact, I. I thought that people were going to kind of take my testimony and say, well, it doesn't really apply to the case, so it's not relevant. But what I saw from that is the way that people were speaking about my testimony is that they were finally able to, like, see him under a different lens, the lens that we grew up with. The reason that we hold the belief that he's guilty and that. That he's dangerous and that he shouldn't be released is because of these behaviors that we've seen on the back end. And I think giving them a window into that really helped a lot because it helped them realize, too, like, whether you want to believe he's innocent or guilty, I don't care to change your mind in that. However, we need to acknowledge that he is dangero and still continues to be dangerous.

[B]

Yeah. And I think it was really interesting for people to see in the past he's bullied you privately.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But now the bullying was quite public because it was in these Facebook groups. It was all over Reddit. And so people could see this is who this guy really is.

[C]

Yeah. In the past, he would literally write letters And I even, I think I called you guys like last week. I had found more letters. Some one was from like the day after I met him at 17 when I talked about that first prison experience with him. And then to see the tone of things that drastically changed from those meetings and how it went from that to then we get to that 20 page letter, how quickly that was. But Even as an 8 year old I was getting letters where he was frustrated that I wasn't reaching out or responding. I didn't even know he existed and he had already had animosity and anger towards me. So I grew up under him constantly. This back and forth dynamic until recently. I wanna say it was like five years ago when he was even threatening that I needed to let my children get to know him. And so letting people see this side of him that he's been able to email or message or use other people, he just couldn't control his tongue. And I was actually hoping that's what would happen because I wanted them to see this is who you're actually dealing with. This is how he behaves.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Right now my Listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com/msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. Yeah. I do want to note this because, I mean, obviously everyone's allowed to respond to things or say, hey, no, this is my perspective. But at the same time, I think for those, for those people who are listening who didn't sort of watch some of this response unfold in real time, like, we all did this. This was ad hominem attacks against you. Incredibly vicious, mean spirited, seeking to destroy you and your reputation once more. This was not a situation where it was something like, hey, this didn't happen, or I have a very different memory of these events. But, you know, I wish her the best. Like there, there would have been ways to refute or push back or respond that would have been not aligning with what you were saying.

[C]

Right.

[A]

But wouldn't have been, I consider, you know, abusive.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He definitely funny enough fell on his own sword. Ninja Fred. But it was, it was interesting, you know, I saw remarks from him about how I'm just a raging alcoholic, even though, I mean, it takes five minutes on my Facebook page to see that. I talk about recovery, working with the homeless, turning my life around. Like, you don't have to do a deep dive on me. It's public, you know, I think. But only, not only that, but his back and forth of, well, she's a raging alcoholic to. She's a fake junkie. And it's like, okay, well which one is it? Am I faking it or am I drunk right now? I'm confused. I'm getting confused.

[A]

You're faking the drugs, but you're real.

[C]

About the outcome or like saying like, you know, her mother will testify on my, my behalf. Like, in what world do you think my mom will agree with what you're saying right now, you know, meaning, especially considering what we're going to record. And so it was just a really strange thing to see, the unraveling. And it also helped me to see him as smaller than. I guess the fear in my mind had built him up to be because instead of seeing this scary guy, it's like I'm seeing this angry, broken man who can't do anything other than continue to lash out at me. You can't even articulate and dissect what I said in a. In a cordial manner. You just go straight to hate and animosity, which reiterates your behaviors, your behavior towards Scott, towards Crystal, towards me, towards my mom. It reiterates what all of us have been going through. I was glad for the public to see it finally One thing that really.

[A]

Struck me, and of course this could be a coincidence, but it's something that sort of. I noticed is that the attacks initially started from accounts linked to the Kenzoos in a more public Facebook setting. And then over time, it seemed to, as I think the reaction to that, the backlash to them, you know, lashing out at you really took hold. We noticed that there were a lot of new Reddit accounts popping, continue to relitigate, all with the same exact tone of voice. And listen.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

At the murder sheet, we believe in evidence. I am not going to accuse any specific people of doing that, but I, I think it, it seemed very inauthentic and artificial.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And a lot of people noted that.

[C]

Yeah. And all caps.

[A]

You know, we went from kind of like wholeheartedly saying something in a more public facing social media to sort of like taking the fight. Anonymous, which also was very ineffective.

[C]

Yeah. And in this, like, what I noticed is some of them, it seems like the same person who wrote them. And I think we all probably know who's behind it, but without proof, I won't say. Was also responding to themselves in a very timely manner. You know, you're talking like 15 seconds of, yeah, this post hasn't had traction in like five months, and now all of a sudden a whole group just jumps in there to talk about how innocent. And now, you know, how awful I am, how awful you guys are. Like, we're all idiots. And. And it's just like, okay. But it also, I think, went out when they lost the platform and the ability to, you know, do this on a larger scale. It almost became like you're watching them track down things to keep it going. And I was like, why? You just can't let this go. Like it's consuming you once again. Which I believe, considering the personality of what we're speaking about here, is a testament to the behavior that his whole team and everybody has had, which is once you go after them with anything other than what they want to be said, then they will continue to chase and hunt and bring it up and bring it up and drive it home. And it didn't work, thank goodness. Because, man, I don't know if I can. If there's like a copyright on the hissing noise that the vipers make. But God bless you guys, you know, and the murder sheep people. I don't know if you want, like, should I use the train thing over there? No, but just like the way that these people were like, I'm heading over to Reddit. I was like, wow, this is incredible. I didn't have to do anything but go to sleep and just know that things were getting handled. It was. I just never seen that before. It's a taste of their own medicine. Finally.

[A]

We've seen so many true crime incidences where it's the opposite, where it's just like a terrible mob is going after people. So seeing people sort of band together and say, this isn't right, and sort of saying that, like, hey, regardless of how anyone feels personally about this case, still isn't right.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and just kind of drawing a line in the sand and acting upon it was one of the most remarkable and heartening things to me.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I just, I. Yeah, I was, I was floored. And I was really impressed with. With those people who did that.

[C]

Yeah. I did see people that had said too, that they didn't believe that he was guilty of this crime. However, his behavior is not right and therefore he can sit where he's at. And I thought that was even profound. Whether we agree or not that he killed Scott to know that other people are like, well, it's clearly better off if he sits there. I understand how that could be a dangerous rhetoric in other situations, but I think in this one we got it right. Let him stay where he's at, because this is the behavior that you're trying to unleash on the world. And if this is how were acting on the Internet, how much worse would it be in person?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I think.

[A]

I think people understandably feel like their activism is. Is a finite resource.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And getting burned out working on behalf of someone who is behaving in such an overtly abusive and toxic manner when other people could possibly use that help in other possible distinct cases.

[C]

100%.

[A]

I understand why people were saying, you know, hey, I'm not. I'm not determined either way on guilty or innocent, but I can't do this anymore.

[C]

Yeah. Yep. And stepping back from it or the people that I saw and that changed their mind. Yeah. I thought that was incredible. I was like, oh, wow, thank God that's working. You know, if people just hear the facts.

[A]

I think a lot of people are open minded and I think that's wonderful where people are saying, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And like, you know, I. It's not that Kevin and I are just like these charismatic people who are just like, oh, but you are. We're literally not. We're just like, here's what, what we found. And people are like, oh, well, now that I know that. Yeah, that's kind of a big deal.

[C]

I think it, I, I hope what it does too, is set the tone for future reporting, that you will look at all of the evidence and stuff that is there, and I mean all of it, like sit down and do the deep dive and, and that before you jump in so vehemently behind somebody who you don't see the full picture. I, I really hope that this is a, A way for people to go, ah, hold on, let's. Before we jump head into this, let's take a look at the whole package.

[A]

Because I will say the past is the past and people's coverage is people's coverage. And that's fine. And that's, that's old and that's people, and that's. And we're not here to relitigate or go and say, oh, this is bad or this is good.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But going forward. Yes, we absolutely will. We will. And it's not, it's not a matter of being hostile or being annoyed at people. It's just a matter of, like, if people are putting out things that are not true or they are omitting things that are very important, we have to note that because it's not, it's not truthful otherwise. And it's, it's a way of helping everybody get better coverage.

[C]

Yeah. And I will say too, I hope that going forward through this, if people think, you know, reaching out to the victims and playing a backhanded card is the appropriate approach, also that they'll think twice because some of us come with receipts. And you should be mindful of what you say to victims if you're not going to stand behind your behavior.

[A]

Yeah, I, I completely agree. We need to, we need to have people be thoughtful about this. And listen, I'm.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I'm a big believer in everyone in true crime who's a creator has a really strong responsibility to their audience and to cases in order to get it right as much as possible. But we're all human. We're all, we all have failings.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

So it's more about just saying, okay, where can we get better versus, you know, like, oh, we need to throw people out.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I would like to see people get better, though, because it's really. It affects people like you.

[C]

Yeah. Well, all part of the same machine. Yeah. And I don't think people realized, you know, that sometimes the, the stuff that they're reporting, I don't fault them for reporting off of what they believe to. I don't fault them for that. If they believe that it was true. And, and they looked at what was presented to them. I could see how. Yeah, you could come to that conclusion. But I also think that, you know, take in mind that sometimes this is fueling the ego of these people and it's making them become more powerful in the fact that they think, look at all this, this great stuff. I'm getting all this help. And so then they go behind closed doors and they're terrorizing people. I think that hopefully this particular, you know, case will kind of highlight that. Like, be mindful of what you're seeing and how much you're feeding the ego of these monsters. Sometimes it emboldens them and they'll. I get it. The. The podcasters, the reporters, they're not going to know how he's behaving on the back end. But when they are behaving like this and there's proof of it, maybe we take that into consideration so that you're not supporting. Because to us, it looks like they're almost supporting the behavior. Like, do you know he's behaving this way? And I don't think a lot of people did until we did this. Really. I don't think people knew that he was behaving that way. So I can't fault them for thinking that otherwise.

[B]

As we record, we've recently gotten news that the Michigan Department of Corrections has begun to hold him accountable. Namely, they searched his cell and found out that he had contraband and he had WI FI access, and that's inappropriate, and he's been punished for that. How did that news affect. What do you make of it?

[C]

Well, I had a cheerful celebration on the street. When we talked about it, I was, like, so pumped. I literally was just walking the block, like, yay, I don't even wanna work now. We had celebration pizza at home. I mean, we got pizza for the kids. I came in and told them. I was so pumped. Especially because we've tried, you know, to reach out to the warden and say, hey, he's harassing us. I think he's got a phone, he's got something going on and felt like it was falling on deaf ears. So knowing that people took this seriously, I know people, like, reached out and contacted. I think that was incredible to see other people get involved because it wasn't just the family doing things. That was just. I. I feel incredible. Also a little bit upset that he had accumulated so much. And I can't help but ask why and how and. But everything happens in its own timing, right? And so him getting caught with now was the Perfect time for him to get caught, I think in getting caught with so much is huge. And hopefully makes them more mindful that if he's on the Internet freaking out at one o' clock in the morning, we might want to find out if he's got another tablet, you know, and who's getting him the tablets. That's next on the murder sheet.

[A]

I would love to know how that happened.

[C]

Yeah, no kidding. How do you. I don't know if anybody in prison knows how you can steal that many jpegs.

[A]

I would love to find out if someone listens. Listening as someone they love. In the McComb Correctional Facility. You know, we, we've interviewed quite a number of inmates or former inmates of, of different places and I, we would love to know more about, you know, how do people get these things?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And we will keep people anonymous because we understand that there's a danger in speaking about stuff that's going on in prison.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And so we take that very seriously. We protect our sources. Murdersheetmail.com But I am interested in is this something that would have to be smuggled into him? Is this something that you can get from another inmate? Is this something that's very normal for a lot of, a lot of them have this or is it. Is this unusual?

[C]

Do we need to do a GoFundMe for the prison system to put air tags on there, you know, on their stuff?

[A]

It seems surprising because I think, yeah.

[C]

I'd like to see my taxes go to that. We're not doing the roads. Right.

[A]

So it's kind of a safety thing too, where he's stirring up stuff against people and possibly illicitly using this online to harass people.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

That shouldn't be happening.

[C]

Yeah. I could tell in the past because I would get, you know, on Facebook you get a notification in your email also. So sometimes on Facebook, if somebody follows you or likes on your post, it might not tell you the exact time. If you find it the next day, it'll say eight hours ago. Right. But in my email, I was getting emails at like 1:30 in the morning, 2:30 in the morning. Temujin Kensu followed you. Mickey Bear liked your Stu, you know, post stuff. So I was like the weird random hours make me believe that this is happening when lights are off, everybody's in bed and he's got a, like a phone or a tablet or something. And I knew by the. This is going to sound weird, but by the way things were written, whether it was Paula speaking to me. That's right. I'm going to say that boldly. You can't sue me for the truth or whether it was Fred, because Fred has a certain way that he communicates with me that is like my con, you know, condescending princess talk and stuff. So I could tell, like, oh, this is, Is Fred commenting underneath of something or it's Paula. Either way, it's wrong. And so that was one of the things I had tried to speak to the prison about.

[A]

And yeah, I mean, Paula has claimed she does a lot of this.

[C]

Oh, yeah, she does.

[A]

And I believe that. I believe her when she claims that. But it, this raises the possibility that he was doing some of this too.

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yep.

[A]

I do want to ask you. This is kind of a broader question, but, you know, we've heard from a lot of people who were inspired by you coming forward. They've maybe dealt with their own situation.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

With abusive parents or abusive former partners or, or a situation where they were the ones having to speak out about something that's wrong. And I know how difficult that is. And I, I, I'm asking you, do you have any advice for people who might still be in that position, having gone through this experience, you know.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

You know, what you would recommend to them about, you know, voicing things or not voicing things or how did stay safe and take care of themselves?

[C]

Yeah. So I will say everything has to happen in its own time, when you're ready. I think if you guys had even approached me, like 10 years ago, I wasn't ready. I was very apprehensive of people. I mean, I was apprehensive of you. I thought you guys were Paula. You know, I feel like I've come a long way in it. You know, I'm 41, 42. Am I 41 or 42? Chris, I'm 42. I'm 42. Okay. I'm 42. My husband had to confirm that for me. Thank you. But I think for me, I'm learning a lot about myself right now, too, and doing this, like, I quit drinking, quit using drugs, all those things. Many years ago, I quit smoking. I want to say it was less than a year ago, but when I interviewed my mom, I started stress smoking again. And then I took a break. I wasn't smoking. And last night I was reading over the transcript, and I realized that as I was reading it, I started to want, I was like, I want to get drunk. I want to get, you know, any of the things that I could think of other than facing the trauma right so I'm learning that the things that I didn't think affected me as much do. And when you're speaking about it, whatever attachment that there is to the past or however you've learned to process trauma. For me, I learned to process my trauma through addiction. That was my outlet. And my escape was not thinking about anything. And so I. I've realized that though, I think I'm really healed. I don't like the word triggered, but you can get triggered again. And so be prepared for that if you are going to speak. And don't be hard on yourself if you're not ready. I wasn't ready. And I was presented many opportunities throughout life, but I didn't think any of them were the right one. And then I would feel like, am I not doing enough? Am I not doing anything? You know, we. We have all this stuff. I don't even know if anybody wants to know it, but I think it might help. And so whatever that timeline looks for you, you gotta give yourself grace. If you even survive trauma and abuse and you're here to talk about it, you can't be forced or pushed until everything is the right time. And I did see people that had talked about coming forward or sharing stuff when I watch in the chats about their own abuse that they went through and how much, you know, listening to my testimony helped them think about the stuff that they went through. But that's a hard thing to do. My husband can tell you. I've been like an emotional wave for the past couple months where one day I'm fine, and the next I'm like, the Lord hates me. I've been abandoned. I'm gonna die. And then I'm like, riding this high high of like, oh, he's in trouble. It's great. He's in a hole somewhere, you know. So I think you're gonna experience that range of emotions. And if you're not ready because you think it's gonna destroy how much you've built up up, then you can wait until you are, you know, but at some point it probably needs to come out because it's nobody's assignment. I think the thing I've adopted is like, I don't need to carry around somebody else's skeletons if they're not mine, you know, and you don't have to carry somebody else's skeletons around either, because it's just a weight around your neck. So when you're ready to unburden them, just be prepared. It's a wave, and that's okay. Give Yourself, Grace, while you're riding it.

[A]

Really, really beautifully said and well said. I wanted to ask you. This is one thing I think our listeners want to know about, but we're, we're. We certainly don't know the answer to it, but there's been some indication that Temujin Kenzie may be changing his name back to Friends.

[C]

Do you have any thoughts on that? My. I have.

[A]

I have a boring answer. I have a boring thought on that.

[C]

I know. Well, I listen in and I love. I gotta say that's probably the boring thought. Yeah, it probably is just the legal ramifications. I would like to hope and believe that it's because he's been called Teemu so much that he got his little ninja feathers all ruffled up and he can't handle it because he's not used to anybody thinking other than, wow, it's so cool that your gang is gone. You know, So I. But I noticed like on Otis, it still says Temujin, but I, I did see the document that the MDOC issued about his name and his name being legally changed back to Frederick Freeman. So I don't know if it never really was Temujin. I think it's interesting that his wife's got that new last name. Like, that's gonna cause some issues at home, you know, what are you gonna do? Like Ken sue slash Freeman on your throw pillows? Like, how's that gonna work? But I think it's great because he's built this, you know, false identity of it. It's kind of great to see him get knocked down a peg or two. Whether he's trying to do it for a public image, it doesn't matter. One of the comments I saw was, doesn't matter if you're Temujin or Fred. I hate you either way. From. So one of the listeners. And I was just like, that's fantastic and true. Because the truth is, it wasn't Temujin who committed these crimes. It was Fred. So if you think you're running back to something, you're just coming back to the original evil that you were. Congratulations. It came full circle.

[A]

Yeah, it's. The whole thing is so backwards.

[C]

Yeah, I love it. Teemu Temu.

[A]

Always something weird. Is there anything that we didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention or any. Anything else about any of this?

[C]

No, I just want to tell your listeners that I, we really like. I can't even explain how much our families appreciate you guys and, and the people that have come forward to help share stuff or, like, confirm things. God bless you, man. Because we felt like we were like walking into a tsunami unprepared, you know, and to see how many people come in to be like, no, what she said is true. And here, you know, that kind of stuff. But just the way that the listeners and people have rallied around us, I know there's a lot of people that are watching that were also victimized and are listening in. And though they're not speaking, we communicate sometimes amongst each other. And so to know that they're seeing it, too, I think that's so healing and. And the ripple effect of other people that I know personally, I won't say who they are, but big, big characters in his life that have stepped away and said, I want to get away from this. Now that I'm seeing the full picture and hearing the things that were said behind closed doors, I also want to step back. They're getting freedom from this, too, and that's because of these people's support. And so everything that you guys have done, I sing your praises all the time. I love you guys. I know.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[C]

I know you don't take compliments well, so I'm going to make direct eye contact while I say it, but I do. I really love guys. I told my husband on the way here, like, I really do think that, like, you guys were ordained for this. We couldn't have this in better hands. And. And the people that have rallied together, like, you have some of the best listeners. You really do.

[A]

I know.

[C]

I know. That's a compliment any day. I am so proud of them. And the Vipers, Like, I love you guys, too, you know, whoever coffee is, just, you know, give yourself a pat on the back for the Teemo thing. I've never seen that. Hopefully, as Wikipedia changes, you know, to Teemu Kensu also, Timu Kensu has a ring to it, but really does, so.

[A]

God, I love that.

[C]

I know.

[A]

Thank you for saying that. I really. Yeah, we have the best listeners in the world. And I'm not just saying that because they're listening right now, but I. I truly feel like I. Yeah, they say.

[C]

That when the mics are off, too. I can confirm that.

[A]

Talk about them like their kids. Not in a paternalistic or maternalistic way, but more of, like, I'm just so proud of them.

[C]

Yeah. I feel like I've got this, like, whole new brother sisterly community where some of them are like, my grandpa's age, and I'm like, you get it, sir? You. It's amazing. It Is. And, like, my mom. My mom doesn't even have social media, but I share stuff with her, which, by the way, my mom loves the Fred memes. Okay. So whoever's making them, bless your heart. You're. You're incredible. But just seeing that stuff for, like, the woman that made the T shirt, that was. Oh, my gosh, that was great. I literally do want a T shirt.

[A]

We're gonna figure that out. I do. I do wanna ask you, though, because you mentioned this a little bit. You know, there's other people who have been in this situation to an extent, and if. If someone in that situation is sort of, like, on the fence about. And some people have come forward and they come forward to us, and they've come forward to you, and we've had those conversations. If someone's in a position where they may have some information, but they're scared to come forward.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What advice would you give them?

[C]

Well, I would say, for one, in my experience with this, I chose. I know you guys would have gone above and beyond, like, if I wanted to change my name and do voice alteration and all that, like, we had talked about all of. I felt very safe. I chose to use my name and stand up for myself finally in it and to stand up for my mom in it and rescind that part of my fear. But not everybody has to do that. So if somebody does want to come forward, I will say, from what I'm experiencing, you are with the right people to do so. And even if it's just a message or a phone call, like, nobody's asking you to hop on camera and stare into the mic and say, hey, this is my name, my address, and where I'm from, you know? But they have offered every single time. We've done lots of speaking, lots of communicating, lots of sharing stuff. And every time, you still offer that to me. If you don't want people to know, you know, if you don't want this recorded, if you don't want this, I'm the one that chooses for that to go forward. So I will say these are two great people. If you want to. To put it in their hands. Yeah. I'm gonna make direct eye contact with you guys while I say it. Please look at me for five minutes of uninterrupted eye contact. Contact. But you are with the right people to do so. And I think that that's a testament, because so much of this surrounds, you know, being exposed and in the way that Fred's camp has always worked is like, you got to get on camera and defend me and tell everybody, you know, make umpteen Facebook posts about it stuff. And that's not who murder she is. That's not who you guys are. And the community that you have built is not going to, hey, let's go out of our way to find them either. And I think that's important, whoever wants to come forward to know, like, these people are not going to harass and threaten you. It's very different experience than Fred's camp. It's been very empowering. It's crazy. I've never talked about this stuff to the depth of this, and I feel very safe doing so. I just don't feel safe with Paula loose in the world. But that's just on its own thing, you know, that has nothing to do with this. So fair. Yeah, that's fair. I think that's fair. Is.

[A]

Is there anything else that you wanted to say or anything like that?

[C]

No, I just love you guys.

[A]

Oh, we love you too.

[C]

We love you. Give me. Give me that shirt. Donna.

[A]

You'Re the best. And we appreciate what you've done, how brave you've been for coming forward, and thank you a lot to us that you trusted us. Yeah, I mean, the world, you guys.

[C]

Help me be brave. I really do mean that. I do. I keep staring. You guys can't see, but I'm making direct eye contact.

[A]

It's awful. Too many compliments in my show.

[C]

I know, I know. I'm gonna hand write them notes when I'm done too. Make them read them out loud. Oh, my gosh.

[A]

Well, thank you so much, Lena. Delightful to talk to you as always.

[C]

All right, I'll see you soon. All right. Okay, awesome.

[B]

Thanks so much for listening to the murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[A]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail].

[A]

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the murder sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting recording, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.