The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: Leyna’s Story: Part Two

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: Lena’s Story: Part Two"

Release Date: July 29, 2025

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Introduction

In this deeply emotional and revealing episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee continue their exploration of the chilling case surrounding the murder of Scott Macklem. This installment, titled "Lena’s Story: Part Two," focuses on Lena, the biological daughter of Temujin Kensu (formerly known as Frederick Freeman), who was convicted for Macklem's murder in 1986. Lena bravely shares her harrowing experiences growing up under the shadow of her father's violent tendencies and the ongoing threats from his supporters.

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Lena’s Harrowing Childhood and Abuse

Lena opens up about the unimaginable trauma she endured as a child at the hands of her father, Fred Freeman. She describes a life filled with fear, manipulation, and abuse:

Lena [05:15]: "They just tracked it down through the hospital records... It felt like he was just letting me know, 'I got your address again.' It doesn't matter if you use a fake name or hide your kid. I'll find you and let you know by dropping hints that I know what your child looks like."

Lena recounts how Fred's relentless stalking began even before her birth and continued throughout her childhood, instilling a pervasive sense of fear and helplessness.

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Persistent Harassment from Fred’s Acolytes

Throughout her life, Lena has been subjected to constant harassment from individuals aligned with her father. She details interactions with men like Bill Proctor, a Michigan reporter turned Fred's advocate, who persistently sought her support despite her protests:

Lena [07:20]: "They expect me to express, 'Oh, my dad's incarcerated and needs to come home.' I'm actively doing everything in my life to ensure that he can't find us."

Despite Linda’s clear pleas for no further contact, Fred’s supporters continued to bombard her with unwanted communications, making her life a constant battle against intimidation and manipulation.

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The Influence of Media and Advocacy Groups

Kevin Greenlee sheds light on the role of media figures like Bill Proctor and organizations such as Proving Innocence, which have propagated a narrative exonerating Fred Freeman. Lena criticizes these entities for spreading misinformation and undermining the credibility of the victims:

Kevin Greenlee [12:22]: "Proving Innocence's work on Kinzu has included spreading inaccurate information, some might say outright lies on his behalf."

Lena shares her disillusionment with these groups, especially after discovering that Proving Innocence liaison David Sanders had disrespected her boundaries by sharing her mother’s contact information with Fred, exacerbating the harassment.

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The Commutation Hearing: A Pivotal Moment

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Lena’s recounting of the commutation hearing. She describes the tension-filled environment where her father’s supporters and their aggressive attacks clashed with the testimonies of multiple victims, including Lena herself:

Lena [30:27]: "I'm exposing myself to the man I fear the most, allowing him to see the fear in me and giving him another reason to hate me."

During the hearing, Lena observes the fracturing support for her father as testimonies from various victims reveal the depth of his atrocities. Her own testimony serves as a powerful statement against Fred’s narrative of innocence.

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Emotional Toll and Victim Impact

Lena delves into the profound emotional and psychological impact Fred's actions have had on her and her family. She speaks candidly about the PTSD suffered by her mother, grandmother, aunt, and herself, emphasizing the ongoing nightmares and fears perpetuated by her father’s abuse:

Lena [19:35]: "He's a villain. I'm so sick of this... I've been dealing with this since I was eight."

Her heartfelt plea highlights the enduring scars left by Fred’s violence, underscoring the importance of recognizing and validating the victims' experiences.

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Breaking the Silence: Lena’s Courageous Stand

In a pivotal moment, Lena expresses her determination to speak out despite the risks, aiming to dismantle the cult-like following her father has amassed. She condemns the glorification of Fred Freeman and urges others to see through the facade of charisma masking his true nature:

Lena [36:55]: "Everyone in his life is property to him. If you come into his life, you are his property."

Her narrative serves as a powerful warning against the dangers of blind allegiance and the manipulation tactics employed by abusive leaders like Fred.

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Confronting Media Misrepresentation

Lena critiques media portrayals and investigative journalists who have inadvertently supported her father's exoneration, reiterating the necessity of responsible reporting in true crime cases:

Lena [55:12]: "So if you're listening, Aaron, that was the wrong approach."

Her interaction with journalists reveals the challenges victims face when confronting biased or misleading media narratives that seek to undermine their credibility.

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Hope and Healing

Despite the overwhelming trauma, Lena conveys a message of hope and resilience. She emphasizes the importance of sharing stories to validate victims’ experiences and to prevent future abuses:

Lena [87:19]: "Your story is the light. If you survived that kind of evil, your story is the light."

Her advocacy aims to empower other victims to break free from the silence and to foster a community grounded in truth and mutual support.

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Conclusion

In this profoundly moving episode, Lena's courage in sharing her story provides invaluable insight into the life of a victim of a powerful and manipulative criminal. Murder Sheet adeptly highlights the systemic issues surrounding true crime reporting, victim harassment, and the challenges of overcoming deeply ingrained fear and trauma. Lena’s unwavering commitment to truth and justice serves as an inspiring testament to the strength required to confront and dismantle the shadows cast by abusers like Temujin Kensu.

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Quotes are attributed to their respective speakers with corresponding timestamps for reference.

Transcript

[Kevin Greenlee]

Content this episode includes profanity as well as discussion of murder, rape, suicide, domestic abuse, child abuse, and the abuse of an infant.

[Anya Cain]

Imagine if your father was your enemy. Imagine if he sought to harm you from the time you were days old and even before your birth. Imagine if he stalked you and screamed threats at you when you were still a child. Imagine if he expected you to worship him. If he expected you to conform to his twisted ideals, his diet, his preferences, his activities, his bizarre beliefs. Imagine if you fell short in his eyes and he sought to destroy you in any way he could. Imagine if he, to this day, continued to smear your name, continued to call you the problem, you the liar, you the broken one. How would that affect your life?

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is part two of our interview with Lena. Her biological father is the man who now calls himself Temujin Kinzu. This is the man, of course, who murdered Scott Maglom in 1986 in Port Huron, Michigan. Kinzu's birth name was Frederick Freeman. Lena will refer to him as Fred throughout this episode.

[Anya Cain]

Leina knows that she is risking the wrath of Kenzu and his devoted acolytes by coming forward with this story. Team Kenzu does not want you to hear this. She's doing so anyway because she wants the world to know the truth. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder of Scott Macklem. The Guilt of Temujin Kenzu.

[Lena]

Laina's Story, Part two Sam Like, I remember, I had my first daughter, and when that was in 2006, and I @ that point lived in this apartment. I had been with my boyfriend at the time for probably two years at that point, and the apartment was in his name. I didn't ever put anything in my name. I actually lived under a fake name. Yeah, so I, I, yes, it was so, so swift and so, like, I don't want anything to do with this. That I lived under, like, a moniker for a long time and took, like, my stripper identity and was like, oh, no, this is my real name. So a lot of people didn't even know my real name because I was always afraid that it was going to come back that, you know, I'm associated with this ninja killer type of thing and I wanted to be so disconnected from it. So when I had my first daughter, this is, like I said, 2006. So what you would do is you would. In the hospital, they would come and take these pictures of your kid. Then you could pick like a package, right? So I am in this apartment with my boyfriend. We had had her. We probably. I wanna say it was like a month after we had her. So the Internet back then wasn't even like, I don't think Facebook. I didn't have a Facebook page or anything. MySpace. I wasn't using that. And then I get this card in the mail that's like, oh, my granddaughter is so beautiful. And I remember it like stopped me that. And I was like, oh. And I started shaking. So, you know, naturally my boyfriend's like, what's going on? He knew about my dad and why we were putting stuff in his name and doing all these things. And so I remember like reading it and he's talking about how my daughter looked like me when I was born. And I was like, he's physically seen a photo. He's seen a photo of her. How has he seen a picture of her? So now I'm like, are they following us? Are they watching me to unload and unload my car seat? Like, what's going on here? And I think what must have happened is they were so constantly circulating this. We're going to track people down, we're going to look for em, we're going to do this. That they found the birth record and the hospital files were public, right? So you could go in and that's how you would pick the pictures.

[Anya Cain]

We were able to find the birth announcement in a single newspaper. But that doesn't explain Kenzu seemingly knowing what the baby looked like or him reaching out in such a creepy, unwanted manner.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Again, Denise admitted to sending her this unwanted card after the birth of her daughter. She claimed it was all her, in her own handwriting, not from Kinzu, and that she'd found out through a friend about the birth. To be blunt, given the extent of her behavior toward Lena over the years, as well as the abuse Denise suffered at Kinzu's hands, Denise's words on this point lack credibility. She seemed determined to shield Kinzu at all times, even when it hurt her.

[Lena]

So I think that that's what they did. They just tracked it down through the hospital records, which is wild to me. It felt like he was just letting me know, I got your address again. You know, like, it doesn't matter if you don't put this apartment in your name. It doesn't matter if you use a fake name. It doesn't matter if you hide your kid, you know, I'll find you and I'll let you know by dropping hints that I know what your child looks like. I mean, that was terrify. Was just one instance of things that continued to happen. So I kind of just had this built in system, right. Where when I would date people or anything, it was like, here, here's the upfront. If you get approached by this, if you get approached by that, you know, then we don't talk to people. Numerous times throughout the years, I would get reached out to by like Bill Proctor. He was a big one. He tried to reach out to us a lot, both my mother and I, I believe. Actually, I don't know if he reached out to my. I think he did reach out to my mom. There was a documentary guy that found me when I did get a MySpace page. It was very quickly from the time I got a MySpace page. And he like tried to get me to talk. He wanted to do this documentary about Fred. And then I was like, no, I'm not doing that. And then he started, I think I told you the story. He started to hit on me. Yeah. And was telling me how sexy I was and how attractive I was. And I said, you're doing this documentary because, you know, my dad kills people. Right. So what do you think he's going to do when he finds out you're hitting on his little girl? Because I could always just make a visit to my pop pop and let him know doing that and that shut it down like immediately. Boom. You know, so it was like different things like that happened over the years where it was like, again, like for us, it just never stopped, you know.

[Anya Cain]

I do want to ask you, with these reach outs, like with Bill Proctor, for instance.

[Lena]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Were you feeling like it was someone who was. Had an agenda about what side he wanted to.

[Lena]

Oh, yes, 100%. So like when Bill approached me, it was with the, the time that I remember the most. There was other times I still to this day have no idea. Got my phone number because he texted me first and I was like, what's going on? They were doing the investigation discovery and it was basically like, we'd really love to hear how your father, you know, being in prison and that has like affected you because you didn't get to grow up with your dad. And I'm like, great. That's like what I wanted though. What are you talking about? That was a safety protocol and stuff. But it was always pitched to me anytime I was approached by anybody, you know, like. And I Would say, like, I do not have good things to say. Like, this is not going to go well. But they didn't want to hear that. They only wanted me to, like, express, like, oh, my dear dad, you know, he's incarcerated and he needs to come home. I'm actively doing everything in my life to ensure that he can't find us. And then I have people approaching me going, we really, really want you to help get him out. And you need to be his voice. To the point where it was like I was getting bullied. Like, you know, don't you feel bad that he's been incarcerated for a crime he didn't commit? I mean, it was very bizarre how I was not ever taken into consideration. It was again, like, through other people. Now Fred telling me, this is how you need to respond and this is how. So instead, that's a big part of why I never did anything. I'll be transparent with you guys, too, in the fact that when you first wrote me, I opened that up late at night, right? So I have this standard go F yourself message that goes out. And I started. I was like, as soon as you're like, yeah, I'm recovering this case, you know, I was like, I didn't even get that far in. I was like, how effing dare you. Blah, blah, blah, there's real victims on the other side. And then as I went, I was like. As I was typing, my phone was moving down, and I was like, oh, oh, you think he's guilty? Oh, hold on. And I deleted the message because I was like, I'm so used to being like, here comes your auto. Yes, chewing. You know, here comes my auto reply.

[Anya Cain]

I'm glad we didn't send you something.

[Lena]

Yeah, I know.

[Anya Cain]

I remember. You also thought we were Paula.

[Lena]

Yes, I did. I thought you guys were Paula. Because that's another thing, like, that happened since the clemency and where Paula has created other Facebook accounts of Fred, and I've had to block them. I just found out three days prior to coming here that she had added friends from my friend's list on Facebook. I thought I had her blocked off and everything that. So that my settings. Right. Are on. Certain things are like, friends of friends. So. And they were added in, like, April. April of this year. So now it's like Paul is doing his bidding for him. And then, like, there was something she had commented on an Instagram post, basically telling me I'm not a Christian because I haven't forgiven him. Then she put a little hellfire emojis And I'm like, why do you keep re victimizing my family and myself? Like, you've never met me. You've never spoken to me. But this is the. The, like, hive mind that we've all just, like, grown up with, you know, this is. This is how everybody that acts on behalf of Fred, whether it's like one of his friends, like his so supposed sister Angela or different things like that, has always approached us with, you're bad. How dare you? You're letting him rot. Forgive him, move on. And also help us release him. And when you don't respond, then you get harassed, threatened, stalked. To the point like, when Paula create Mickey profile that she did. She was like, copied my religion, you know, Like, I'm messianic, right. And I have that, like, posted on my little Facebook quip or whatever. And it was like, messianic father to some wonderful children. I'm like, are you guys copying, like, just so that I would be like, oh, my gosh, we have the same faith. We both love Jesus. Well, let's do this. You know, I know better. I know better. And I don't know that she knows better, but I do. And I'm like, I know what he's having. You do? Please stop. You've seen before. Oh, yeah, I've watched this. This is for me. This is the. The third round of women that have done this for him, you know, starting with the M that testified. Yeah. Denise and now Paula. Did we name him in Michelle?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I believe we did.

[Lena]

Oh, so Michelle. Yeah. Michelle. Yeah, starting with Michelle. Michelle started going to court and that something my mother had shared, that she would go on, like, live for Fred about stuff where he would, like, assault people. And then she also, you know, had like, reached out and different things over the years to my mom. And now Denise came in, and now we have Paula. Yeah, like, this is. This is nothing new to me. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So, yeah, different styles, perhaps. Yeah, yeah.

[Lena]

Paula is the most aggressive and that. And it's. It's strange because you're raging against his victims and you've never bothered to have a conversation with any of us. So, yeah, I do want to zoom.

[Anya Cain]

Back to the media side of things.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin, for the listeners, I don't know if we mentioned previous coverage. Can you explain who Bill Proctor is?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Bill Proctor is a Michigan reporter. He did one of the early stories alleging that your father was innocent and had basically been framed.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so, yeah, a lot of the stuff that people think they know about this case came from things he put.

[Lena]

Out in public, manufactured By Bill.

[Anya Cain]

He has the er, text of bad reporting in this case.

[Lena]

I'm just going to. Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And then to be clear, like, he actually went, my understanding, correct me and we'll cut this if this is wrong.

[Lena]

Kevin.

[Anya Cain]

But he went from being a reporter on it to actually being like starting his own, like, advocacy project that was like, you know, wrongfully convicted people trying to get Kenzie out. So, you know, very much, you know, very.

[Lena]

Yeah, very, very much in it.

[Anya Cain]

Bill Proctor has been one of the major architects of the movement to get Kenzo out of prison. He's a former journalist who now serves as one of the chief flacks for Kenzu. When you were not giving some of those reporters and whatnot what they wanted, like, what was their reaction to that? Were they surprised?

[Lena]

Uh, yeah. And well, and also like the pleading thing, you know, like that I have to do this, like, this is somehow my moral obligation because he's innocent. Um, it would really help if you wrote a letter. This was in 2020. I was told it would really help if you wrote a letter to help get him out. And I'm like, are you guys listening to anything I've. When I've asked you not to contact me when I say I don't care, please just notify me if he passes away so that I can live in without fear ever again in my life. Different things like that. And it's always like expected that. I think they come to me, right, because I'm the kid. And so they think that my, like, I want a dad so bad is that I would just be like, oh, okay. You know, I full fully, I firmly believe if he gets out, he will kill me, that he will kill my mother. Absolutely. He threatened that to me numerous times, starting around like the age of like nine, I want to say eight or nine, that, you know, like my family, he views my family, the one that raised me and my siblings, and that as they're not your real family, right, so they're disposable to him. And I would try to like reiterate that to people like you guys. Do you guys know he said he was going to kill my family, you know, and it's like, right. Anyway, so could you write that letter, you know, like, and just, and just bypass all of that because it's your dad. And so it's like I just get stepped right over no matter how much I express it. That's why, I mean, that's why I almost was like, I'm going to lay into these two, you know, reached out Because I was like, I can't keep. I'm so sick of this. I'm 41 years old now. I've been dealing with this since I.

[Anya Cain]

Was 8, you know, sort of understood, honestly.

[Lena]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

We didn't know the depth of it. We were getting some of the vibe.

[Lena]

Of like, yeah, there's something more going on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. One thing you said to us early on was you characterized as you were contacted off often by people who you said were your father's fans.

[Lena]

Fans. Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How does it feel that there are people out there who idolize this man who so victimized you and your family and many other peoples? How does it feel to know there's people who believe him over you and the others?

[Lena]

Yeah, well, I think, yeah, he. This actually makes me emotional because I've gotten some really hateful, like, Facebook messages and comments, random comments from people. Like if I had a public photo or something where somebody, especially after the investigation, discovery, I don't know what was. I don't know how it became public almost that, like, there were people were able to find me almost immediately. That's why I changed my name on Facebook and stuff like that. So. But the amount of hatred from these fans is like, I think they think they're helping him. Like, oh, you know, like, how could you turn your back on him? You know, he's just been rotting away for 34 years and. And stuff. Or, you know, the getting called, like, a stupid slut. I'm like, oh, did he teach you that about me? Or did you just come up with that on your own? You know, have attacked my character because they'll, like, go through my Facebook and look for something to be angry about. And then, like, elevated my dad in that, like, I'm evil and, you know, or attacked my faith because I. I'm a Christian. Right. And so to them it's like, well, you must not be a real one. You know, instead of understanding, like, God has protected me from this man, like, you're challenging the wrong thing here.

[Anya Cain]

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[Lena]

Thanks.

[Anya Cain]

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[Lena]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Lena]

Shopify.com listen and I think that what I see right in this, in this true crime community is that people are so sensationalized by things that they don't ever, like, really stop to go, well, there's real victims on the other side of this. The first time I ever, even publicly. And I've had a very public life about a lot of things, right? Like, I teach about sex trafficking. I've shared, you know, multiple years of, like, sharing my journeys with sobriety and addiction and stuff. But I never talked about Fred because, again, I'm part of this. Like, keep your head down, stay in your lane. He'll leave you alone. And so the first time I did was in Charles Manson died because people were like, oh, rest in peace, Charlie. Oh, this is taken too soon. And I was like, I'm getting sickened by this. Like, these are people that I would consider my friends that are like, oh, Charles Manson, what a great story. You know, and he's dead. And we're like saying, rest in peace. And so that was the first time what I did is I put a picture up and I said, this is Fred Freeman. This is my father. He's known as the Ninja Killer. And, like, I think you guys are forgetting that there are people that when. When somebody like this passes away, like, they're free. Like, I get to have an amount of freedom, right? Because he's in prison, I don't have to worry and live like my mom did. Where? Oh, he showed up and he threw me through a wall again and beat the crap out of me and beat up my boyfriend and beat up my grandma's boyfriend. All these different things. I get to live in that freedom because he's in prison and we're sensationalizing the wrong thing, you know, like, and just blindly believing somebody. Like, there are people that are wrongfully incarcerated. Right, but how, like, how many conspiracies can you have? So. So the original judge, he's a liar. Fred's attorney was a liar. Crystal was a liar, Scott was a liar. The whole entire, you know, police department in Port Huron. Well, they're all liars. Anybody that he's encountered that had any opposition, well, they're liars. The clemency hearing was garbage.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're a liar. Your mom's a liar.

[Lena]

My mom's a liar. You guys are liars. Like, at what point do we sit down and go, wait, so you're the only one that's telling the truth? Everybody around you is a liar. And I think that's what these happens with these true crime stories, right? Is that there's people that are screaming like, I'm innocent. I'm innocent. And people want to, like, have a project, and they want to think they're helping, but you're not looking at the full picture. You're getting, like, what that person says about it and their own behavior should kind of clue you in. Like, your circle keeps changing, your representation keeps changing. The people that are willing to work with you keeps changing. Why does that keep happening? If you're such a great person, you know, and if they so vehemently believe in your release, why is your circle constantly rotating? And why do you have to keep pulling new people in? So I'm hoping that's what, by even sharing this, that people like you guys need to, like, there's real victims and they're still living these nightmares. There's people. Scott's parents don't have him. Yes. Crystal lost her fiance. You know, my mom has ptsd. My grandma died with PTSD from him. My aunt still has it. You know, I have it. Like, my siblings have it. It's just like, we're still being victimized, and people are like, he's a hero. That's crazy. That's crazy to me. I think society focuses on the wrong projects sometimes. I completely agree.

[Anya Cain]

I just, we, we were so courageous to come forward with this, and we just appreciate you, I guess, like.

[Lena]

No, it's okay.

[Anya Cain]

I remember, like, gosh, I just remember reading some of your statements at the commutation hearing and just being so moved. I, I, we might come back to the media topic later. Right, Kevin? But I do want to ask you about commutation here because it can't have been easy for you or your mom.

[Lena]

No, no, my mom and I stayed. They, when they put us in a hotel because they were afraid of what was going to happen. He had a lot of support. A lot of support. I was actually very defeating feeling walking into that room and seeing so many people on his side. I remember going in there, they escorted us in, you know, we, we had like, armed guard, you know, I mean, it was, it was crazy. Like, I'd never been that close to, like, those kind of guns and stuff. I was like, holy cow. Because I think because of the whole following issue, right? And how much, you know, support in the outside world they had, they didn't know if somebody was going to act out. And I know they, they want to laugh about that and call that trial thing a sham. Right. But the truth is, is, like those of us who have been approached by people like, gotten Letters from his fans telling me what an awful, horrible person I am, I should rot in hell, and different things. So the idea that somebody would act on Fred's behalf is actually not that wild of a stretch. It's been proven that people will do things at his request already. And we were very open with the prosecutors about that and had, you know, paper trails to prove, like, hey, this has been happening. So the idea that we needed protection was very real for us. And so when we went in there, it was very hard for me. I was actually pregnant at the time. Yeah, I was very afraid of that. I didn't know something was going to happen to my baby because I was so stressed. I was having seizures prior to it. I almost didn't want to go, but I knew I had to because I wanted them to hear that, you know, he was approaching it with, I want to be reunited with my family. And I was like, please, no. And so I was just like, I think they need to see the family that he's talking about. I'm the family, right? You didn't tell me you wanted to get out. I mean, I just knew that was the standard protocol. But so we went in there, and I had surrendered just like, a fraction of the letters and things that I had gotten over the years. I remember him speaking, this is so long. He went on and on, and he knew so many details of different things. And he was wearing a red shirt, and he picked me up in the gas station. And I was like, there's just no way that you remember these things, like. But you don't remember, like, your grandma, because you couldn't answer that question when I was face to face in a prison. But we remember what flavor soda pop you got at the gas station prior to shooting someone. And there was a lot of just him going on and on and on. And something really interesting started to happen where the more that he talked, I remember seeing there was a very heavy split down the middle of the room, right? Like, those of us that were in opposition were on one side, and his supporters were on the left. And people started to, like, get up and just leave. And I was like, huh? Then I believe it was his sister was allowed to get up. And that's when I got brought into it. And I was like, oh, and me and my mom were liars, and I was a pornographer and different things. And I was like, okay, this is taking a weird turn because I thought I was the family you wanted to get reunited with. And I was just like, I was so taken back for one, somebody must have been watching the Internet. Cause at that time I was in the modeling industry. So somebody was obviously taking whatever photos I had posted and going, oh, look. And then just going, let's say it's porn and we'll just do like the worst possible thing with it. And so I ended up like, listening. And I was just like, this is just like, okay, mind you, he's never spoken to me about any of this. And I'm also hearing that one of my siblings and him are like, we're so close and she really wants me to get out. I knew that not to be true because Carrie and I had remained in contact. And so like, oh, that's not real. And so I just kept hearing all these different things. It was so hard for me to not stand up and go, that's not true, that's not true. I'll call Carrie right now. You know what I mean? And different things like that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's talk about Kinzu's sister, Jennifer. She opens up her time to the commutation hearing by announcing that she's going to go after Lena's mother, G. She claims that G lied and was a terrible mother. Jennifer also attacked Lena in the commutation hearing. The attacks were sexual and degrading. It is awful to read what she said.

[Anya Cain]

Kenzou echoes her thoughts on his own daughter as well. He slammed Lena, called her an awful person. His discussion of his own daughter is just really weird and off putting. And all of this was in an attempt to explain to the commutation board members his behavior toward her over the years as well as presumably get ahead of what she had to say on the stand. But the thing is, the commutation and parole board members just seemed freaked out by the way he was talking about her.

[Lena]

And so eventually it was our turn. And I. Something happened when I listened to Crystal, right? Here's these women. Crystal and Michelle's testimonies were prior to my mother and I. And so growing up, like I said, I knew about the horrors of the abuse that my mom had gone through. But I think even as a kid, like, you want to push back against your parents. And I had seen my mom throughout the years do so many things I didn't understand. I'm like, ah, she's exaggerating, whatever. There's no way, you know, ninjas. What are you talking about? You know, counsel and all this kind of like, maybe she's. Maybe she's just blowing it out of proportion. Maybe she didn't remember it. Right, right. And then it was Crystal. Sorry. I was watching this woman stand up there and talk about, about the rape and the ninja stuff, and. And I knew. I knew it was true. She never met my mom. And here's this woman that they never crossed paths. Crystal was after my mom and they had the same story. And I was like, I just remember being so, like, oh, my God, it's. It's all true. It's all. It's all true. And. And then came Michelle's testimony and like, the beatings with the sword and stuff. And I remember my mom telling me about the swords. And I just knew, like, these are. Now we're up to three women. You know, how many more. How many more are there that they all have the same story? In an era where there was no social media, there was no cell phones, we. We can't. Couldn't corroborate it. What, are you going to send letters to each other that you don't even know exist and. And have this, like, same matching horrifying story of torture and trauma and abuse and rape and being forced to do these things, being forced to keep track of other women, stalking, harassing, and how he would force them to play a part in that with him. And then just even like, looking over at Denise and thinking, like, oh, my God, like, it's all of you, you know? And so by the time I got up there, I was just so, like, just wanted. I don't know, I think it was really, really hard because I was learning stuff too, right? Like, learning, like, this is very real, which was really terrifying. This is real. The ninja stuff is real. The rape is real. The torture is real. All of it's real. And it's right in front of me. And you can't refute this at this point. And my heart just broke for them. And I felt so much shame. Like, I was so ashamed that I looked so much like him. I was ashamed that I had the same last name. I mean, so many things that I was processing and then it was my turn to speak. And when I walked up there, I was shaking so bad. And I'm so glad I had typed everything out, you know, and submitted it prior so they could see what I was going to say. There was a note I made, actually, I thought it was interesting. In the. While he was speaking, he had mentioned how he converted to Christianity. And in the thou Kaspar, Christianity is the enemy. And I mentioned that I changed. I was like, grab my pen. Like, I'm switching that real quick. I'm mentioning that one, you know, the religious crossover type of thing, like. And I don't even really remember much of what I was said. I was shaking so bad, and I was just staring at the Attorney General trying to focus on anything because he was probably 10ft over from me. That was the closest I had been to him in years. And the way he was staring and he was making these noises and just making his presence, like, big, right? And I was so shaken up and so afraid. I didn't know if somebody was going to attack me or what was going to happen. And he cried out. At one point, there was something I was saying, I'm sure you guys would probably remember better than I, about him hating me and feeling like he hated me. And he yelled out, I don't hate you, Lena. I love you. And it threw me off so bad that I started to, like, vibrate in the sea. And I remember looking up and I said. I whispered and I said, please make him stop. You know, and that's when they turned the, you know, the guns, like, boom on him.

[Anya Cain]

This moment is in the transcript. Lena says, I'm exposing myself to the man I fear the most, allowing him to see the fear in me and giving him another reason to hate me. This is not an easy decision by any means.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then Kenzer yells out, lena, I don't hate you.

[Anya Cain]

I'm sure the black and white transcript doesn't capture how bizarre and strange this moment was for all those observing.

[Lena]

And he was just. He was sobbing, you know, sobbing. And that was the most human I had seen him. And he had been scoffing at everybody else's testimonies. He just smirked and. And so, you know, like a peacock just preening in front of him, like, making them feel like crap. And I watched something in him break when I got up there. And then came my mom, you know, and that was actually really hard to listen to. And I watched my mom, her health, I mean, she just. She crumbled, she hit the floor. She was so afraid. She hadn't seen Fred. And at that point, you know, over 30 years, I want to say close to 30 years. And to this day, my mom never recovered. She has multiple sclerosis. And that was like kind of like the straw that broke the camel's back. And hearing how she. When the Attorney General asked her to recount the story of him striking me, you know, I just felt so bad for her. She's always carried so much pain for that, you know, because I was three days old, first time he hit me. And he would hit me in the Head. And when she would reach for me, he would, you know, tell her, like, you know, like, nothing is more important than me. You don't touch that baby. You don't reach for that baby. She's nothing. She's nothing. You know, I'm the most important thing in your life. And you do what I say, not what she says. She's so sick, you know? Yeah. I'm a baby. And the saddest part is I'm not the only infant Fred abused. And I hope you are listening, Fred, because you and I both know that to be true. I'm not the only infant he abused. You know, I have siblings, so. But hearing how sad and shaken and I know she was so humiliated telling that story and I think that's the one that really broke her, having to tell that and recount that and how traumatizing that was because I was just screaming the more he continued to strike me and the more he would blow in my mouth and stuff, I was suffocating, you know, and he was like, oh, it's ancient Chinese medicine. So, like, what part of ancient Chinese medicine is striking a three day old baby in the skull repeatedly because they're crying? Like, what, what medicine is that? I'm. I guess I'm confused on martial arts because can't imagine there's any move that involves that, you know, fighting a baby in general. Yeah, yeah. I'm just, you know, he's, he's not opposed to violence against children. I think that's something that the public is missing because they don't know that. Right. They don't know that his, you know, this isn't a playboy who got a bad rap and, oh, a bunch of girls went off of me. This is a violent, violent man who will hurt anything that he deems a threat to whoever he has control over, including your child. His child. You know. Do you believe he was capable of killing Scott Maflow? Yeah, so I. Yes, yes, absolutely, yes. Long answer is short. Right. There was a time where I didn't know and I thought maybe he didn't, you know, maybe, maybe he didn't do because he really likes to like nearly beat people to death. And I never knew that he had guns. I didn't know that at the growing up, I didn't know about that. And so it seemed to me because of all the ninja stuff, right, and the weapons and the mass amount of that kind of stuff that he had, like, well, I don't think guns are his style. And so I had expressed that, like, I don't Think that he maybe shot somebody. That seems a little out. He really likes. Like, this sounds so sick, but he really enjoys nearly beating people to death and, like, feeling the life almost leave their body type of thing. And I knew that that was extended to men and women and so a gun. But then the. My mom shared with me, there are years, like, four years ago, I always had this question. It was a back and forth, back and forth, Right? Like, yes, I believe he. I 100% believe he is a murderer. I just don't know that he shot somebody. It seems like, you know, it just was a very conflicting thing for me. Um, but my mom shared a story about him shooting at her and. And making her run. And it was a pellet gun, but I realized then that he will shoot at people and force them to run for their lives. So the idea that he would shoot somebody in a rage, all of a sudden, it was like, I still didn't know, you know, the amount of how wicked he was. When she shared that, even when I interviewed it, it was a really hard one to listen to Again. My mom, you know, kind of laughs about it when we've. When we've passed, like, big hedges. She's like, I had to jump through one of those. But, I mean, how terrified she was that he was shooting at her and forcing her to run and flee and she was getting hit and she still had to keep running. So once I knew that, I learned that one about four years ago, and that completely. I said, that is it. I'm so done being on the fence. That man shot that man 100%. He shot him and killed him. Yes, he did that. He's capable of that. The one saving grace I thought he had was not actually there. It was an illusion. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And just some of the stuff that you've talked about here in terms of manipulation, getting other people to do things or lie or be confused for him and the obsession with children, as far as extensions of himself, all factor into.

[Lena]

What happened to, yes, 100%, we are. Everybody in his life is property to him. If you come into his life, you are his property. Whether that is, you are a student of his in martial arts, whether you are a partner, whether you are a kid, whether you are housing, everybody immediately becomes his property. And that's why I think he's so disconnected from humanity as a whole that he sees people as things that will benefit him. And when you don't benefit him, then you are disposable, including your children. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Why do you think he has attracted such A following.

[Lena]

He's very charismatic. He is. I will give him that. He's. He's creative. Right. And as somebody who's been on both sides of it, I know, like, I wanted so desperately to believe him, too. I mean, you're sitting in front of this guy who, by all appearances is soft and nurturing, and he's pouring into you, and he's very welcoming at first, very accommodating and stuff. And then, like I said, you don't ever see that other side until you trigger and do something that, like, rips that safety net out from under you. So I think a lot of people, because they've never had to experience him face to face, they've never had to. They've never done anything that's like, ignited his rage. Right. It's easier to digest that he's just a good guy who got a bad rap. And because so many people are so unaware, grossly unaware. Like, Fred was arrested after breaking into somebody's home as a ninja and beating him with a sword. Yeah. He can argue that that's not true. It's very, very true. You were arrested for it, sir. So the ninja thing is not crazy, but it's a really easy narrative if you don't know that. To be like, ninjas, what are you like? I mean, that's like, super wild, right? Like ninjas. And we're listening and stalking and, you know, hearing devices and mind control. Yeah. Because you didn't live it. And so it's. It's super easy to dismiss that somebody was out in the free world, living in such a powerful delusion that it pulled other people in. And there are real victims on the other side of those stories, you know? So I think that's why they've never had to face his wrath, and they've never had to listen to the truth of it. Maybe if they got both sides, they would make more educated guesses.

[Anya Cain]

I was bored. When you told us earlier that a podcaster who had reached out to you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

About this, can you tell us that story?

[Lena]

Are you talking about that guy? That rude guy? Yeah, yeah, I have it in my messages. I'm pretty sure. I'll pull that up for you. Yeah, he so rude to me. So this woman reached out to me. We're part of the same missing persons group because I do advocacy work. I'm in that group because I had a friend that was missing and we helped recover her body. So she. I know her through that group and the work that she does. She personally reached out to me and said, hey, there's this guy who I didn't know at the time that he met Fred. And so I was like, oh, my gosh. I thought it was similar to you guys. I was riding this high of like, oh, my gosh, people are waking up, right? And so I was like, oh, okay. And this guy reached out to me through her first, right? And she said, is it okay if, you know, I. And I knew her well enough to be like, oh, yeah. And she said, he wants to talk to you. He has some questions and this and that. And. But she herself stated, I personally, I don't wanna touch this case. And I was like, okay, do you know what side he's on? And she's like, I believe that he's leaning more on, like, the side of truth. So I'm like, oh, okay. You know, like, yeah, yeah, sure, I guess. Cause I'm thinking, like, oh, I didn't even bother. This is why, like. Like, I have to act so carefully in life, and I should have acted carefully here. And so I'm like, yeah, sure. Like, I guess, you know. So she gives me his number. I'm like, all right. And so I talked to him, and immediately it becomes apparent to me. He's like, you know, oh, I. I'm on the side of hard evidence and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like. So I said, well, then I'm sure you have the court files, right? And he was like, what? From what? And I'm like, whoa. Like, what do you mean? So I'm like, realizing, oh, no, who am I speaking with right now? And he was like, can you send me? And I was like, no, I'm sure you can get, like, a Freedom of Information act or something. Like, I. I' like, you want me to do the legwork for you? And I realized, like, he, I believe, had visited Fred and was like, I'm just having a hard time with this. And I was like, okay, I need to get off the phone now. And then there was something he said to me. And he's like, well, I mean, you kind of contacted me. And I said, no, I will call her. N. N contacted me and said that you were on the side of truth. I thought you were, you know, friends with Kevin and Anya. And he was like, I don't really know who that is. And I'm like, oh, okay. And I'm like, I'm. Okay, yeah, I'm gonna let you go. And I just, like, I could, like, feel myself, like, if I was able to, like, physically walk away from him, like, I Have to go. I have to go. I have to go. Yeah. And it was just very aggressive. I couldn't believe that he wanted me. You know, he's like, you have some really strong opinions. That was one of something that he said to me. You have some really strong opinions. And I was like, yeah, because I. I know him personally. I grew up in. Well, I've met him and I'm like, okay.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, were you raised by him too?

[Lena]

Oh, is he your dad? Y. Oh, my gosh. Sibling number five, welcome to the fold. You know, like, what is happening right now? And so just very aggressive, very rude. But again, I feel like for me, it's like, this is why I didn't talk to people, because it's always like, it comes back around. So. So you do what we want you to do. You give us the stuff we want. You talk about him in a good light because you made it very clear that he seemed to be, like, much on his side.

[Anya Cain]

What a fascinating glimpse into how the true crime sausage is made.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We reached out to Aaron Habel from Framed an investigative Story to ask about this interaction. We've not yet heard back.

[Anya Cain]

As of now, the third season of the show hasn't launched yet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We eagerly await Framed third season. Very curious to see what he does and does not include.

[Lena]

Yeah, it was very, very off putting. And you gotta understand, I'm like, reeling from the fact that I'm even, like, willing to talk to you guys. And now all of a sudden, I'm like, what's going on here? Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So was this the guy that told you you needed to do some research?

[Lena]

Aaron. His name was Aaron.

[Anya Cain]

Aaron from. Yes, this is the Framed guy.

[Lena]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what it was. Yes. Aaron Hable of Generation Y and Framed podcast.

[Anya Cain]

Right.

[Lena]

Yeah. So if you're listening, Aaron, that was the wrong approach. Yeah. I mean, like, seriously, people.

[Anya Cain]

People come into this and I. We've seen this.

[Lena]

You.

[Anya Cain]

You make up your mind, but then it's like, what's bothersome to me? I'm okay with people having different opinions on how common and whatnot.

[Lena]

Absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

I can be like, baffled by them and say, I don't know why you feel that way.

[Lena]

Yeah, I mean, I understand.

[Anya Cain]

Like, yes, that's fine. We're not trying to police people's thoughts or opinions.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

What's striking to me is the level of disrespect that consistently gets thrown out there to people who have been victimized by the situation.

[Lena]

100%.

[Anya Cain]

You, your mom, all the other women. Crystal Scott's Family. And it's like this kind of of like, saying the right things without really leading, doing the right actions. So, like, if I say we're on the side of truth.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

But I want you to just give me specifically something that can help with.

[Lena]

My narrative and by the truth. Can you get the court documents for me? Because I haven't done the truth stuff yet, please? Do you think you could call your mom, put her on the phone or. You know, I don't know how to get documents. Yeah. This is what I do for you. And I did realize in that moment, somebody again was watching my Facebook page and screenshot that. And sent it to that man and still, to this day, has never come forward and told me who that was. He wouldn't tell me either. And I said, you. You're not gonna tell me? He said, no. I'm like, I don't really trust that. You know, like. Right. Okay. Yeah. So it's really.

[Anya Cain]

It's appalling. And weirdly, we talk to people, you know, behind the scenes. Like, just not. Not really creators, just people who kind of listen to this.

[Lena]

And.

[Anya Cain]

And it's really weird talking to people who I would consider. There's people I think have a principled stance of, like, I don't know if there's enough evidence.

[Lena]

That's fine.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, whatever.

[Lena]

That's a different opinion. I completely agree.

[Anya Cain]

People can fall into that category.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And not be bad faith. But what we deal with a lot is people who will say, oh, well, this, this, and this. And we'll say, these are not true.

[Lena]

Yes. This is not true. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And now if you told me that if I was talking to you, Elena, and you're like, actually, here's some facts that are true, I would be mortified. I would hang my head in shame.

[Lena]

Yeah. That you have had such a strong stance in the wrong direction. Yes, I agree. That's how I felt when I realized, like, what I had been questioning. Like, did he shoot Scott? Did he not? I felt bad. Like, I can't believe I, for some reason, in my mind, was like, he doesn't like guns. You know, he does.

[Anya Cain]

Well, he's not a ninja. It's ridiculous. He's like, yeah, but also, he's such a ninja.

[Lena]

Why would he use a gun? He's not a ninja. You know, like. And so it was just like. Like, I felt that shame and felt like. I. I think it's actually one of the compulsory aspects of why I'm like, okay, I need to start opening up about this. I think I I've been looking at this, and what's weird is I always believed Crystal and Michelle and my. I always believed that he's capable of rape. I always believe that he's capable of the abuse. I always believe that for some reason, the one thing that I was like, I don't know, that he would walk up and shoot someone. I think he might stab them in their sleep. Right. He. I mean, he might beat him within an inch of their life. He might, you know, cut their head off or something like that, which is so tragic than an act of violence in an uncontrolled moment. But for me, I think it was because I knew, like, his rage stuff to be controlled. Right. And so that was like. That seems a little messy for him. But I think what I saw in that when my mom shared it with me is like, the escalation. Right. So, like, by the time he got to Crystal, after my mom goes into hiding, I'm in foster care, being hidden away and all that. And by the time he gets to Michelle and Crystal and the other women that he's going through, the escalation has just gotten so bad. Like, he. He's so in and out of different delusions and different women and different characters and also aliases. That was another one. Like, he's keeping so many identities up that it starts to crack. And I think that's where that act of rage, you know, I see. Like, look at that now from the logic of, like. Oh, yeah, that's absolutely conceivable because he's just exploding within, you know. Yeah. So, yeah, that's really well said. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And it's. I think it's just the fact that, like, people on people who are kind of so deep in that you can bring as many facts as you want. It's emotional for them.

[Lena]

Yes. They believe in him.

[Anya Cain]

They believe in him.

[Lena]

Yeah. They believe in him.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Wonderful.

[Lena]

That's the biggest thing. Yeah, yeah. This. This welcoming, warming guy.

[Anya Cain]

And it's like, you know, Ted Bundy didn't kill everyone he met.

[Lena]

Yeah, I know. And Ted Bundy was also charming. Right. And so I feel like people overlook that aspect too. Like, there's this guy who's got all the right answers. That should be a red flag in and of itself. That's a red flag. He knows every answer to everything. That is a red flag. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You know, people can come at it and conclude differently than we know, but you have to be respectful towards people. In this case, you've lived it.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe get their takes on things before You.

[Lena]

And in the, like, just absolute mockery of what. But, like, I'm doing this because of what I've seen Paula and him do, especially with Crystal, that. That stick into me to post, like, the personal information and all that. I just was like, I can't. This has to stop. Like, this just has to stop. You know, it's getting worse and worse and worse. And I. It's like, why are people overlooking this? She is a rape victim. She is a survivor. She, you know, lost her fiance. You can, if you wanna focus all your rage and hate and whatever on your prosecutors and judges and all that. Okay, leave her alone. And why are other people helping facilitate that or ignoring it, you know? Yeah, and ignoring that this is happening. And, you know, and I think that is why I was like, I. I absolutely. I wanna do this because I want them to know that, like, we believe you and we're so sorry and this has to end. And I hope that people, you know, for as frequently as, like, if you want to Google him, what comes up. I hope this comes up and people will listen and go, I think I might be looking at this wrong because everybody in this case owes Crystal an apology at this point, 100%. And Scott's parents. Scott's parents are owed an apology. And, you know, my mom is owed one, Michelle is owed one. Everybody is owed an apology at this point.

[Anya Cain]

I think you are, too.

[Lena]

Yeah, probably. I've read some pretty hateful stuff about myself online. I'm like, wow, where'd you guys even find that? You know? Yeah, they did that.

[Anya Cain]

The harassment you all have received and the like, living in fear is not acceptable. I did want to ask a couple of other sort of questions.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can I ask something really quick? Talking about people owing you an apology. I believe one of the people that owes you an apology is David Sanders. Can you tell us about that?

[Lena]

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, so he's. Can I say the organizer. Yeah, he's with the Innocence Project. Is that what it is, proving innocence or Innocence Project?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think it's proving innocence.

[Lena]

Proving innocence. Right. So, yeah. So David is like, Fred's liaison for the outside world. And I have no idea how or why, but starting around. Let me look so I don't reference that incorrectly. I believe May of 2020, I started getting put into his emails about Fred and about Fred's condition, and I just kind of stayed silent, you know, and. Yeah, so we've got one here in July 4, 2020. And it's just stuff about, like, friends and supporters, which I'm Not, I'm not on that mailing list. And so I'm gonna give those to you, Kevin, so you guys can actually go through them. And so I started getting put on these lists of these mail outs and stuff. And at one point I was like, like, hey, David, why are you doing this? You know, like, why? Something in me was like, I gotta challenge this. Like, and I had said, you know, even if I don't, I don't know. And I don't believe that maybe he killed Scott. But, like, why are you doing this? You know, like, he's violent. You have to know what he's done to these women, the torture and abuse and all that. And he said, oh, you asked some hard questions. And I'm gonna come back to this, right? But in the meantime, I'm still getting these emails, I'm still getting these things about Fred's release and now he's got Covid and we're making a whole big deal about that. And I'm. I don't care. I don't care. And so I'm telling him, I do not want Fred to know that you've talked to me. And I don't care about any of this. And it still keeps happening. And then something interesting started to happen. And again, this is where, like, I've been so traumatized by all this stuff where, like, Carrie and I were speaking on the way here about where when you get an email from him or you get a letter from Fred, like, something just comes over you and you just. And you just shut down inside and you're like, okay, okay. And I started getting emails from Fred that are referencing things that are happening in my life and David is forwarding them, you know, and I'm like, what is going on here? And it was stuff like I just, you know, found out that my beautiful grandchild is deaf. And I didn't even put it together at the time. How does he know that? I posted about that on my Facebook page. Like, just, you know, I didn't even think about it. I was just like, okay, I got a letter, I don't care. And what would happen when I was getting these emails and I would see Fred in the email, I would be like, crying, I would go to my husband. I was freaking out. At one point we considered selling our home, you know, because I didn't know what was coming down the line, right? And so as we go on, there is another email in there where David and I didn't even realize this is how, like, in its own brainwashing type of way where we've been conditioned to how to respond when he reaches out to us. Fred has acknowledged my artwork, right? I had painted some pictures. And David says, I sent your father after I've expressed. I don't want him to talk to like to know that we're talking. He says, I sent your father some of your artwork. I hope that's okay. And I'm like, what? You know, but at the time I'm like, ah. And I was just, I. What I just did is I just didn't respond. I never said it. I didn't reply. I didn't anything. And so these emails are just coming in and Fred is actually like tattling on himself. Then at one point I responded because my mother was brought up on a charge from Washington when her and Fred were together, that I knew the only way that that would come to somebody's attention is somebody in Fred's party had challenged his charge in Washington. And through trying to challenge that it would bring my mom back into something. And so I was like, are you aware that Fred has done this? And it was like, ooh, scary, alarming, you know. Then at some point David responds, and his response to me was that he knows about Fred and he knows about the stuff that happened with Michelle. And he said, I almost quit over the things that he did to Michelle. But, you know, I just really believe he's innocent of this. And I'm like, wait a minute, you know about the torture, rape and abuse and you still decided to keep this man on as a client? I don't know that they're lawyers, Boyd.

[Anya Cain]

David Sanders is not a lawyer. He was part of a non profit called Proving Innocence. Based in the Detroit area. This non profit boasts a difficult to navigate website and a lofty mission statement about assisting the wrongfully convicted. We're guessing that who's wrongfully convicted and who's not is up to them to determine. Not like courts or anything like that, but anyways. A 2025 op ed described Sanders as a former Proving Innocence board member.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We will not comment on Proving Innocence's work on other cases or work in general. But for Kinzu, their services have included spreading inaccurate information, some might say outright lies on his behalf. We're sure we will go more into them at some point. Proctor was their first agent, according to their initial filing from years ago.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, and Lena showed us all the emails between her and Sanders. Let's talk about those. A few from 2020 actually seemed to be written to her from Kenzoo, but.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sent through Sanders On May 2, 2020, we saw one where Sanders assured Leina that Kinzu did not know Sanders had her email on November 24, 2020. He mentioned sending Kinzu pictures of Lena's artwork and he passed on kinzu's praise. On December 15, 2020, Sanders sent out a holiday message from Kinzu saying, quote, it still means another Christmas behind steel bars and concrete walls. Let's all pray his nightmares soon over, lena replied.

[Anya Cain]

She asked Sanders if he was fighting for Kenzu because he believed the man was innocent of killing Macklem or because he was innocent of all the rape and abuse as well. Remember, Kenzu and his followers have long attacked and derided the women who came forward against him him, she said. I asked because I wonder if the person that you're defending is the illusion that you think that he is or if it's the person that you believe he's changed into. Lena also acknowledged her own doubts that she harbored years ago about the Macklem slaying, noting that her father was, quote, very much hands on and liked to beat his victims. Guns aren't really his style. I'll just say that she thinks differently now.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sanders replied, quote, boy, you asked tough questions, ones that I have to say have troubled me and others who have worked on this case. He vaguely acknowledges that he does not believe Kinzu is, quote, innocent of all the things he has done.

[Anya Cain]

Can I just say, what does that mean? Go ahead. Sorry.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He says that he would not have wanted his daughter involved with Kinzu. He vaguely alludes to Kinzu's bad character. He says, quote, so he does admit to bad character, but does not go on to taking responsibility for his treatment of women and tends to suggest the problem was theirs as well. I came very close to leaving the case when he downplayed what he had done to Michelle and I believed her, not him. Then he hypes Kinzu up. He talks about how smart he is, how changed he is by prison, this man who won't admit his crimes or his abuse, how he thinks Kinzu wouldn't want to physically hurt anyone because he's old and sick. If I thought he was a physical threat to anyone, I couldn't be helping him, sanders said. Sanders added, having said that, I do have concerns about how he could be mentally abusive towards some family members like yourself. He concludes, quote, so I'm not defending an illusion in terms of the murder charge. Am I defending an illusion that he's a changed man and apologetic for the bad things he's done in life? He has a lot more work to do in that area, and I sincerely hope he is up to that. I do hope I'm not being naive about all this and do not have to plead guilty to that in the future, end quote.

[Anya Cain]

In her response, Lena is upfront with Sanders about her mixed feelings. She mentioned Kenzie's abuse of her mother. G. She writes, I see my father is still raging, angry and fighting, but won't rip off that band aid and just say, I did these things. These women had a right to be afraid of me. They might be forever afraid, and I'm doing everything I can to make up for that. And therein lies the fear of wondering how changed he can truly be. At one time in the emails, Lena comes off as open to the back and forth with Sanders. She thanks Sanders and also mentions praying for Kenzu. But By January of 2021, she's pretty clear that she is disgusted by her biological father's inability to take accountability. This came as G got dragged back into a case involving Kenzu out of Washington. Lena told Sanders that her father, quote, traumatized her mother as a teenager and, quote, beat her within inches of her life. Sanders acknowledges this is, quote, disturbing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

On February 2, 2021, Sanders emailed Lane on saying that he told Kinsey the, quote, he shouldn't be calling in, quote, G that those calls were unwelcome. Sanders added, quote, I do need to tell you that he said he got her number from me. That had to have happened a few years ago and before your mom told me she wanted no one to contact her, end quote. I just want to mention that that is really genuinely shocking that Sanders would give out private contact information of one of Kinzu's victims to Kinzu him. I wouldn't even give out someone's phone number or contact information to anyone without getting that person's permission first. Regardless of the circumstances.

[Anya Cain]

It is shocking, Kevin. And I'm just gonna say, if this guy Sanders is so concerned about what he did to Michelle to the point where, you know, it broke his heart and made him want to leave the case, then I don't know why he would think this was a good idea.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, Sanders also said he didn't want Lena to think he'd lied to her.

[Anya Cain]

Her. In a short but kind response, Lena thanked him for his transparency. But in retrospect, she told us she feels quite differently about his constant enabling of Kenzu. Having read the emails, I also find it shocking. Sanders and presumably his other colleagues at proving innocence know exactly what Kenzu is and they can't wait to Unleash him on the public and his surviving victims. We reached out to Sanders about all this. We have not yet heard back.

[Lena]

Yeah, I'm not sure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't even know.

[Lena]

I have no idea what the status of that is. But there was another email, and again where I had, like, blocked it out. I had a phone call with David at one point where that was my. Like, hey, you know, I. I really need to, like, do you really fully know, like. And I told him, I believe he will kill our family, you know, and he said, I just don't think he's as dangerous anymore as he used to be. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, there was just no getting through to this guy. So when I interviewed my mom, like, last week, right, she was mentioning something about having to change her phone number. And she was talking about, oh, yeah, and Fred called me, you know, and then I changed my phone number. And, like, that's been such a repeated pattern, but I was like, what? What do you mean? And she said, oh, you know, this number now? And that's when something hit me. And something in my spirit was like, wait a second. Because I was like, wait a minute. That was like, four or five years ago. What are you talking about? And she's like, you know, he got my phone number. That's why I have this number currently. And I was like, oh, no. And see, what I knew is that my mom had this protected number. And so I'm like, how? Who? Somebody in the system did this. Somebody that has access to the system got this for him. And something in me on the way home was like, I have to look at these emails. I think that's when I went back and I searched it, and sure enough, David. David says, in the spirit of transparency or something, I want you to know I gave Fresh your mom's number. She's a victim, you know, and he had given Fred my mom's personal number. And. And Fred also sent my mom a letter, so I'm assuming he also gave her the address. Jesus. Because his letter was basically, like, for the sake of our broken child, we need to, you know, come together and fix this. And. And, you know, basically, like, I'm. I'm extending the olive branch. And I'm like, I. You know, when this. When he wrote that letter, like, four or five years ago, I was 37. So it's like, what are you gonna co parent? I think, again, it was just like, you know, like, how is this gonna. What are you guys gonna, like, take me to Disney World finally? Like, what's gonna happen?

[Anya Cain]

Can I just say something?

[Lena]

Yeah. You're not.

[Anya Cain]

Like, this has come up a few times.

[Lena]

I just wanted to.

[Anya Cain]

You're not broken. You're an incredibly impressive person.

[Lena]

Oh, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Like.

[Anya Cain]

Like this idea that you're broken or you're.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You're a mother. You're an activist. You're doing all these things. So I just, like, just for the listeners who have not gotten talked to Lena as much as I have. That's nonsense.

[Lena]

Yeah. Thank you.

[Anya Cain]

Not even close to being. You picked addiction's ass, which I know personally.

[Lena]

Yeah. You did, too. High five.

[Anya Cain]

It's really hard.

[Lena]

It is. It's very hard. Very hard.

[Anya Cain]

So, like, you're not broken.

[Lena]

Yeah. I appreciate it.

[Anya Cain]

You're not in prison for murdering it.

[Lena]

I'm not. And I've never been in. I don't even know how to air kick high. Yeah, it didn't work. I don't even know how to kick high, you know, like. Oh, my God. Thank you for that. I really needed to hear that. No, that's really. I needed that. Thank you. Whenever I hear that one. Yeah, yeah, I know. I know. It was probably just because I'm so used to, like, that's how, like, happy third birthday. You broken.

[Anya Cain]

Out.

[Lena]

Yeah. But he was, like, reaching out to her. I believe it was a guest. Hey. Just wanted, you know, I have your address and your phone number. You can never hide, you know, because that's his M.O. he had my mom do stuff like that, you know, like going back to, like, looking names up in the phone book and being like, hey, I found you again. You know, so I know that is his M.O. because he also, like, he recycles things, right? Like, he recycles victims. He recycles tactics, which is why I believe, like, if he was released, he'll recycle murder is what. You know, so.

[Anya Cain]

Certainly seems to be very angry at.

[Lena]

A lot of people. Oh, he's so mad. This is. Yeah. I do think that we're gonna see an explosion when this airs, and that's okay. I knew that coming into it. We'll see how the rage. Rage train rides after this.

[Anya Cain]

I think Kevin and I can move up higher on the murder list.

[Lena]

Oh, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Hopping in the rankings.

[Lena]

We might all be there together. You know, the council might find us all. Oh, my council.

[Anya Cain]

In his mind.

[Lena]

I. I know.

[Anya Cain]

I do want to ask you.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Did you have a question?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

I did want to ask you because I think this is important. I want to, you know, without Going too much into it. Talk a little bit about your mom and what she went through, but also just when we're talking about tactics, what are some of the things that you observed from talking with some of these women, from hearing about some of these women? Yeah, just all of your experiences, what are the tactics that you're typically seeing when we're talking about Kenzoo?

[Lena]

Yeah. So there's a. He definitely has a type, right? And the type is like young, impressionable, doesn't like to say no, people pleaser, you know, because they're more pliable. A lot of the women that I know of came from really broken homes. So like my mom, broken home, no real adult supervision. And the adult supervision that's around, and I can't say this for all of his victims, obviously, but the adult supervision that is around seems to be kind of loosey goosey. And he can, you know, manipulate the parents too. And so he seems like to me, when I'm looking at like especially seeing the multiple different types of women, right. There seems to be this like, common denominator of this. Like, I enjoy excitement at first. Like, this is fun and exciting. He love bombs everybody right out of the get go. He doesn't just come in as a monster. Like for my mom, he drew art and he sent song lyrics from like stuff like, who knows, probably Guns N Roses, you know, or something like that where it's like, these really resonate with me. And I think that they're us. I'm sure nine other people got that mystery box. But my mom, mom, you know, was the one who was like, oh, wow, thank you. Because they're like, you know, and I don't mean this to be condescending, but they're seeking this attention. And that's how he knows to come in and like fit that bill. That's what he did with me. Here I am like, I want a dad. You know, he's like, I'm here, you know, oh, you've made me mad, I'm gone, you know, kind of thing. And so. But he has this like very strong, intense thing where he just like really comes at you. And then once he's manipulated and, you know, brainwashed and reproduced, programmed you correctly, then it's like onto the next, you know, even so much as like bringing other women in to it. Because I'm getting bored with this one. I'm going to bring a second woman in to smack around and beat on and do these different things. So it's like there's really no parameters as far as like, how many I'm willing to take on. It's not as much. Like, when you see somebody, it's like. And then the killer fixated on this one individual. He's just kind of, like, throwing out his net and, like, whatever's coming back and that he thinks he can manipulate long enough is like, that's how he's reeling them in.

[Anya Cain]

I've always been struck by people. One talking point is like, well, you know, Kenzou and Crystal had broken up or, you know, broke up with who he left. And so why would he care so much about telling her?

[Lena]

He very much cares. Yeah, yeah. He comes back. He always comes back. And I know, like, my mom helped him do that to people. Like I said back in the era of phone books, you know what? So there was like, well, I think you're old enough. I don't know if you're old enough to remember, but if you're old enough to remember and so are you, that there was a time where you could either, like, collect call on the phone, right? Or you could charge the call, you know, to somebody. And so she explained that he would do this thing where he'd be like, oh, I'm gonna, like, I'm Fred Sanders, and I'm gonna charge the call to my number. But it would be like, the daughter was at the house, right? And so then it was like, yeah, Bill, Bill. The call to my home and that. And so then my mom would play the part of, like, speaking like, hello, you know, or whatever organization or different things like that that they were from to get her on the phone. And then it was like, hey, I just want you to know I found you again. You know, I'm coming to get you type of stuff. So it's like he had these different ways of, like, constantly, like, I'm bored. Somebody fled and got and escaped me. So I'm just gonna let him know that I found him again. And he uses other people. That's why all this stuff with, you know, Paula, with Denise, all of that is like, this is not foreign to me. You know, they might not see what he's doing. I very much see what he's doing. Because this has been a pattern since the inception of how he's dated to my understanding, you know, so he. It's not about, oh, I have to be with her. It's, oh, I have to control her. Oh, I have to always make sure that she's afraid of me and never forgets how powerful I am. Because he's like. I mean, he literally Deified himself and was the God of his religion. A person with that mindset cares not about whether or not they stay together forever in love. And it's about a lot more about power and control and asserting that over people that he believes are weak.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Speaking of control, before he was incarcerated, didn't he actually use these women to financially support him?

[Lena]

Oh, 100%, yeah. So my mom was part of the, a fake charity collection bracket, right. So he would go out, you know, she'd have like a mason jar. She told me. I was like, why would you use a clear jar? That's so dumb. You're gonna know how much money you collected. You know, like use a coffee can, then they can't see it. But he was like, you know, put like a makeshift label on it and then have her go out and collect it. And like, you know, for my mom, it was never like there's a set amount like this quota that if you don't hit this, I'm, you know, like, here comes the hand type of thing. But I think the worst part is that they're never was a set amount. Right. And so it's like you're going out and you're, you never know how much money he's going to want and what he's going to do and what his mood is going to be. You know, she collects a hundred dollars. Is that good enough? Today is she collects $100 one day and it's good enough and she escapes a beating. Another day she collects $100 and you know, she's weak and pathetic and worthy of, you know, like getting beat with whatever weapon he has laying around or you know, even forced to do things like, like, you know, like try to commit suicide in front of me as a loyalty test or different things like that over his finances. I know Denise had said she mortgaged her home. Right. I'm sure Paula is including in this financial assistance even to some extent it has to be affecting her life. I know Michelle was, you know, a part of that as well. I don't know that she had to do the collecting. But yeah, everybody that I am aware of has financially supported him in some way. My mom said she only knew of one job that he had. I think she talked about that in the, in the, the transcript things. And it was very short lived. It was the only time he ever worked.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, he doesn't work. He relies on women.

[Lena]

Yeah, on women and like, who knows what else. I know he is, he does check fraud stuff. That was one of the cases that he had was about check fraud. So back when you could like, steal checks and just, like, scroll up the amount and, you know, stuff like that. It was his MO Back then. So there's, like, multiple facets of crime. You know, it's not, oh, I'm just a random guy that a murder got pinned on me. Whoops. I was like, yeah, yeah, I just. I just like karate, like. No, you have other cases. You were literally incarcerated for other things.

[Anya Cain]

You know, there's one. Michelle comes up, and she's, of course, certainly a victim of this whole situation. You know, when you read about what she went through, it's horrifying. She also has kind of, I think, supported him and kind of maybe come back and forth a bit.

[Lena]

Yeah, she does. She does, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Are you aware of anything she said in terms of, like, you know, alibi stuff? And, like, I think she's come up in that.

[Lena]

Yeah. So I believe her stance, if I'm remembering this correctly, is that she was with him that day. However, I will say I don't know if she believes that because she was told to or if she believes that because that's what happened. Right. So there's that thing that happens when you get beat enough times that you don't know what's real and what's fake anymore. And like, my mom said that she knows by the years, you know, but things start to, like, run together because you're in survival mode every single day, and you're just trying to stay alive. And so in her head, she might think, yeah, yeah, I was with him. I was with him. And maybe she really does believe that, you know, but does she believe that because that's what he has told her to believe, or does she believe that because that's what really happened? I don't know. I know trauma well enough to go. It's probably more probable that you got your day wrong, you know, and you just don't realize the extent of the abuse to the point of, like, what that can really do to somebody. And that's what he told you to say, and you forgot that part of it out of this mode of, like, always needing to protect him like these women do. Yeah, we saw.

[Anya Cain]

We saw with the victim, Dee, I believe, was threatened to, you know, to give him an alibi for that.

[Lena]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. It's.

[Anya Cain]

It's not. It's not as if he would be above threatening somebody in that situation. It's very sad. I. I want to ask you, with your. With your mom, how old was she and how old was he when they.

[Lena]

First she said that she. He got out on her 17th birthday. So she met him at 16. And the day that he, like, basically moved in, he. She met him. She had a boyfriend at the time met. He was doing ninja training in the park at this point. He was actually had students and stuff that he was training, and she didn't like him. She thought he was kind of arrogant and stuff like that. So nothing happened while he was out. She had been in his apartment and stuff because of the guy that she was with, being friends with him and them all being part of this kind of like kids that go down by the park type of stuff. And then he got incarcerated for something. And while he was incarcerated is when his sister was bringing over these writings and packages and stuff. So here he's like, just like, while he's out, he never really acknowledged her. And then for some reason, he was like, wink and set his sights on her and was like, I want that one. And so then that's when his sister brought this package over and he started like, writing her. And she felt, you know, okay, I'll write him. What harm can it do? And by her 17th birthday, when he was released, he just moved right in and just took over my grandmother's home. And it was pretty much it from there. So 16. And then until 17, I believe he was. He had his own apartment, so 19, maybe 19. Almost. Almost 20. Which. She's like one of the older ones, from my understanding. Some of the other mothers were. Were younger than that. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And how many? I mean, if you don't want to say a number, like, approximately how many.

[Lena]

Kids did he have? Presumably there's four that we know of. Four that we know of. That we know of. That we know of. Yeah. And gosh.

[Anya Cain]

And yeah. Meeting a lot of them much younger than that.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I want to ask you, you know, you actually did something pretty incredible. You talked to your mom about some of this and sort of interviewed her on some of this.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

What was that process like for you and for her?

[Lena]

Oh, that was really heartbreaking. It was really, really sad. You know, my. My mom is very quiet about a lot of it, and she did kind of the same thing I did. Right. And had this, like, redemption era of, like, she went into victim's advocacy because she felt like, I have a good handle on this. Something that I watched happen is that she spoke about herself like I do. Right. Like, in this brokenness and this, like, so much shame that she carried that she felt she didn't protect me. And there was Things that she mentioned, like the sexual abuse stuff, right, where she didn't. She didn't realize it. That she was a victim of, that she. There was a statement that she made where she said, I'm just so kind of shocked that he, you know, would rape Crystal. And I was kind of sitting there like, why would you be shocked by that? You know, like, because I knew about stuff that he had done with her. And I was like, what? That's a weird statement. And then there's things that she said where I was like, that's not intimacy. That's not, you know, But I was like, wait a second. Okay, so what happened is the next day, after I had a very, very heavy ride home and I was crying a lot, I spoke with you guys, you know, the next day. I was just like, it was a lot. It was a lot to. To get through and to hear and. Because I was learning stuff also. I think that was really, like, whoa. I didn't realize. And I was so proud of her because she brought up other cases. She could remember names and stuff where it's like, these are things that have never been brought to the surface. And she's like, yeah, he was arrested here. He was arrested here. He dressed, you know, And I was like, oh, my gosh, there might be this bigger trail of stuff. And I thought that was incredible. Incredible. Made me realize why he's never poked that bear, right? Because he knew that she was with him while he was going through these different arrests and different things that happened. So that whole, like, I was just a random guy narrative gets blown to bits when you go back and track down all the other crimes. So in that, though, the next day, I. I did go back to her and I said, you know, I just want to ask you, mom, you know, when you talk about. About stuff with Fred, right? Like, when it comes to the threesome type of things, where he would, you know, have you bring another woman home and want to force you to take these pictures or do these videos and stuff, you know, with a camcorder. Did you ever tell him? No. You know, she was like, oh. And she kind of left, like, oh, no, you couldn't tell Fred? No. And I was like, oh, okay. Yeah. So, all right. And then, you know, the. The stuff that happened after when you got out of the hospital and you weren't really feeling intimate. So, you know, did you. Did you tell him? No, I don't. I don't wanna do that. You know, she was like, no, you. I mean, no, that. That would've really hurt is how she put it, meaning she would have been beat. Right. And so I said, oh, okay. So I want you to take yourself and your name out of the equation, and I want you to. To pretend like you're a victim's advocate now. And somebody comes in and. And Brenda tells you this story. How would you react to her? You know, I said, ego, my mom. The fact that you couldn't say no, like, Fred knew that he had beaten you so senseless that you stopped challenging anything that happened. So the inability to say no because there is a physical consequence on the other side of the request can also still be rape. Like, we can prosecute for that kind of stuff. So, like, you yourself, I said, I don't want to put another badge on you. Like, you are a survivor. I believe that in my heart. You are. The fact that you're alive today is a testament to that. But you also are a victim of this. And him, too. You're one of his rape victims as well. You know, I said, did you want to be with him, like, the first night when he got out? And she was like, well, I. You know, I just. Yeah. And like, she just. You could see, like, these gears turning. I mean, she's still processing that today, you know, and, like, I talked to her on the way here, and she was choking up, and we got to pray together and stuff. But I think what happened is. Shaped such a unique pattern of her thinking. Like, intimacy comes from this force and this violence and stuff that he. He did that to her. Like, him. And. And the men that abused her in her childhood did that to her. But she had this idea that because she wasn't. Like, a gun wasn't put in her mouth, that that wasn't rape. However he could, you know, she. She shared this story with you guys. Like, she wasn't allowed in the bed, right? So if Fred was at home and whatever mistress he had and they were supposed to do these things, the girls weren't allowed in the bed. If Fred wasn't home because the bed was a place of this, and. And he would have sex with women, like, while there right beside her and stuff, to be like, hey, I like this one better today, and different things. And they were married, you know, and she. And I was like, mom, like, you are just as much a victim of his sexual abuse as you are his physical abuse. So I think walking through that with my mom has been very healing. Like, my mom never got. Nobody ever presented that to her. And so I think I'm one of the reasons I'm just so grateful to you guys is like, I'm watching things in me heal, and I'm watching things in my mom heal. And. Is it hard? Yeah, this is very hard. And it. And you have to, like, go sit back in the darkness for a second. But this time we're all sitting back and getting in it and going, wait a minute. I'm seeing this with a new lens. I'm not operating out of fear. I'm operating out of boldness. I'm not, you know, that, like, I'm not operating out of worry. I'm operating out of truth and stuff. So that's like, a huge gift. And I know I've told you guys thank you like, a thousand times, but just honestly, thank you for giving our family this, you know. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

That means, like, a lot, a great deal to both of us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It really does. Thank you so much.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to tell you, like, honestly, I felt so bad dredging some of this stuff up for you guys because.

[Lena]

I know, I know.

[Anya Cain]

Like, it's like, I can see how hard it is for everybody, and at times I'm like, are we doing the right thing?

[Lena]

Yeah, you are. You absolutely are.

[Anya Cain]

A lot.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Um, and I've just been in awe by you and just being so candid and just talking about all of this with us. And I really, I do. I do pray for all of you guys because it's. I mean, just what you've had to go through in terms of.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

It's not been right on so many levels. Um, I guess, you know, should, in your view, at this point, think I know what the answer is, but do you think that your father, your biological father, should ever be released at this point?

[Lena]

Oh, no, absolutely not. No prisoners can change. Right? We. We. I. I myself was maybe not like the greatest person when I was younger. I did drugs, I partied. I, you know, got a shoplifting charge and all that kind of stuff. But you can change. But change comes with, like, it comes with admitting your wrongs first and foremost. You can't grow if you never, ever and it repentance. And I think that's something I've never seen. You know, Fred is not repentant. Okay, let. Let's just go at face value. Your name is Fred Freeman. You call yourself Temujin. Kensu. Temujin is Genghis Khan, who's like a Mongolian dictator, rapist, murderer. Why, if we're. If I'm a changed person, why am I holding on to that? Shouldn't I want the, like, oh, that's dead and gone. And the fear and, and stuff that I've caused in that is. Is gone. And we put that and stuff, but that's not happening. Instead we're just clinging to the identity more. You're consistently mocking victims when you might actually have more public on your side if you were acknowledging, you know, things like, why are you guys posting phone numbers? Why are you guys. When the governor doesn't do your bidding, it's everybody call and post like hate messages to her. You know, you continue to acquire new victims with the same MO this is not a repentant person. This is somebody who has just learned how to the system. And because he's garnered so much support, now we're seeing pride in a different way. Right before it was earthly pride of like, I can go out here, I can cause damage, I can reach, wreak havoc. Everybody's afraid of me. And now it's like, I have the media, I got Muhammad Ali's daughter, that weird guy from Two and a Half Men, you know, like just all these different things and it's like, what is going on here? You know, and the rest of us are sitting here shaking our heads and like, you know, you just. This is not repentance, this is boastful. It's arrogance. And how can we say, oh yeah, he's had enough time when the, the same Boastful, arrogant, proud 19 year old is just marching to a different drum now? I don't believe that's a changed person. And so as long as he has not surrendered that change and that. And like the man won't even honor my request to not contact me on Facebook to the point that I had to contact the warden a couple ago because his wife continues to come at me through social media. You know, so in that it's like you don't even respect boundaries, how are we supposed to expect that you won't stalk your victims again? You're still stalking. You never stopped. That is not a repentant person. That is a dangerous person. And can I say this? I. Okay. And as far as his supporters go, those of them that are operating, in my opinion, out of this holy righteousness, right? And saying, oh, I'm here and I'm fighting because the Lord has sent me to release this man. Fred is your God, whether you like it or not. Because the Lord has protected our families, these victims, every single one of us that has got hit in the downfall of this. We have been protected by the Lord. How could you dare say that your marching orders from God are to harass victims to post their addresses, phone numbers, not honor the request. Find pictures of their kids harassment their kids. Threaten every single person that challenges your narrative. What kind of God do you serve? You definitely don't serve the one that died on a cross for my sins. You're serving him. He's still your God at the end of the day. That, to me, is more dangerous than people who have repented and changed and shown that they want to turn their lives around. He's still a God to them. And so if that's what you want to bow down to, you're as equally dangerous. Scott it over and join him in a cell, in my opinion.

[Anya Cain]

For you.

[Lena]

Thank you. I think I needed to say that after 40 years. I hope they hear that. I hope so, too.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, because I've seen enabling.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I've seen flying monkeys.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You know, it's like. But instead of for a toxic, narcissistic father, it's for a convicted murderer.

[Lena]

Convicted murderer. Convicted murder rapist.

[Anya Cain]

And also, if you're that deep that you're, you know, sort of in a situation. Situation where you're just caught up in this, and maybe part of you is wondering, should I get out of it? You're in a cult.

[Lena]

You're in a cult. Get out of his cult. He just. He just roped you in in a different manner. Get out of his cult.

[Anya Cain]

You know, you got into a cult via the.

[Lena]

Do you guys need the information to join the Thal Kaspar or disbanded?

[Anya Cain]

You know, you're hearing from your princess now.

[Lena]

Just like, get out of the room. It's me, the princess, Lord Samian. You know, Goodness. Oh, my gosh.

[Anya Cain]

I guess, like, for. For you, you know, what do you hope telling your story does for people, you know, who might be close to the situation, but also maybe people who are going through another situation that may have parallels.

[Lena]

Yeah. Well, for one, I know that I'm one of many victims in the sense of, like, kids that grew up with this thing hanging over their head. Right. Like, when you see, like, a. A content creator post a story and that sick feeling in your gut, like, oh, here we go again. Or like, for us, every time that, you know, every time there's a new governor, there's a chance for a pardon. And so it's like, do we have to relive this over and over? And meanwhile, you've got this, like, media circus of, like, he's just a good guy, you know, kind of stuff happening, and he's like, one of many killers that gets this type of thing. And so my hope in this is, is that for victims and people who are like, if I just keep my head down, right, if I just do what I'm told and if I just do that, that if nothing's changed and they're still harassing and they're still stalking and that you're. You trying to be good is not going to inherently make them good, too. And we have to, like, understand that you. It's okay to speak against evil. It is. And yeah. Is there. It is as scary? Absolutely. I'm scared. I'm going to be honest. I don't know what the backlash will be for this. I've never done this. I don't have. I know what's happened when I made him angry in the past, and that was scary enough. So I don't know what the windfall will be for this. But I believe in my heart that I'm doing the right thing. Because there's people out there that need to hear that what they live through is real, and they need their stories validated by somebody who hasn't been beating on a gong and screaming innocence from the rooftop. They need to hear it from people that lived it, too, to say, here's one victim. My mom coming forward. Here's another victim. You know, gosh, I hope. Hope one day Michelle comes for here's another one. I wish Denise was here. You know, like, people don't know. Denise hadn't spoken to him for nine months. You know, she was already in the process. She was trying to leave. And she's championed as this woman who did everything in her power to keep his case going. And I've sickeningly seen Paula thank her. This is somebody that wanted nothing to do with him towards the end of her life as she was dying from cancer. Like, how can you get. Stop raging against these victims? And hopefully, hopefully that those of us that have lived through stuff like this, not just with Fred, but other children of these, you know, violent people that are out there that are like, I don't know how to tell my story. I don't know how to share this. Will hear this and go, it's okay for me to speak, too. Even if your voice shakes, speak because somebody needs to hear the truth. A light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot snuff it out. Right? Your story is the light. If you survived that kind of evil, your story is the light. And go blast it into that darkness. Because everybody's buying into the darkness, and they shouldn't be really well said.

[Anya Cain]

I wanna ask you something. Just a detail that always caught my mind was just him crying at the commutation hearing when you were talking. And it is kind of a human moment. And do you believe on some level that he does love you or any of his children? Or is he crying for himself, the.

[Lena]

Child that didn't get that love?

[Anya Cain]

What are your thoughts?

[Lena]

Gosh, I don't know. That's a hard one, I think, for me, for one. Like, I know that I remember seeing, like, tattoos about me on him, right? I don't know why. I don't know if he did it for the other kids, actually. I just remember him specifically pointing to them. I think in some part of his mind, he was like, I was a dad, you know? And so it, like. I don't know if I would call it, like, humanity or whatever it is that's in him. I think there was a brokenness of, like, him wanting. Some part of him wants. Right. I think that's why he rages against us. Some part of him wants to be involved. I want to be a grandpa. I want to be a dad. I want to be these things. But the. He's so fueled by rage, rage, that he can't ever sit it down long enough to go, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for the way I've behaved. I'm sorry for the things that I've done. And so it just gets glossed over, glossed over, glossed over again, that unrepentantness, right? And so I think him crying was, like, realizing, like, our dynamic changed that day. I'm not. I. I don't. I'm not buying in. I'm not, you know, I am, like, retracting the olive branch. And he's watching that and is, like, me, like, taking the olive branch, throwing it in the fire, taking the ashes, throwing them in the ocean. You know what I mean? It's just like, it's all of it. Because I have to do that. Because I think if I went back even now, and I was like, daddy, love me, you know, he would give me, sure, I love you. Until I rise against him. Right? And so I think there is this part of him that does operate out of, like, I want these things. I want to know my grandkids. He's probably so lonely, and he probably is very broken. He's been in the prison system for a long time, but you don't get to have those things while simultaneously abusing the people that you're asking it from. And so I don't know that he can separate himself from the anger anymore. So I do think his crying was real, actually. That's why I, you know, said to you guys, I want to do this. I think he needs to hear my voice. I think it's the only thing that will pierce him is to hear like, you know, like we all tried with you. And you're hearing it straight from the horse's mouth. You know, I tried. Tried with you, you know, and. And that. I think those people need to hear that. You know, like, we did try. We tried to look past everything. I was even willing to forgive murder. I was willing to forgive rape. Not forget it. But just say, okay, maybe you did these things. Cause you. You were having a hard time. You had a bad childhood, whatever it might be. You know, I just want to have a relationship with you. And that wasn't enough. You know. So worship him. Yeah. I had to worship him on top of it. And then if I didn't support him and write letters and do all these kind of things, then all of a sudden. So is that a father? No. Again, I'm just a possession. But there is, I think, a very small fraction of any humanness that's left in him that wants those things but doesn't understand the work he has to put in to get them.

[Anya Cain]

It must be very lonely on some level, when I'm reflecting on this, when all the people who sort of support you don't really know you.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Either. Supporting an elite.

[Lena]

Yeah. I couldn't even imagine having to keep up with that many lies and personalities and stuff. It's gotta be so hard to remember how you act around each person. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You know, fulfilling what they wanted, what you think they want.

[Lena]

Yeah. I feel like you would lose your sense of identity really quickly. Like your own actual, real identity. Yes.

[Anya Cain]

The tragedy is, like, there are people who consistently would have accepted him.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

With the flaws.

[Lena]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

On some level, just want those things acknowledged. And we can't pretend like you're a God.

[Lena]

You can't pretend that this is going on. Yeah. I agree. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

I'm curious, you know, on some level you mentioned, you know, being a Christian, being a believer. Do you love him and do you pray for him?

[Lena]

I do. I. I don't know if it's love. I will say, I don't know that it's love. I, like, I believe that I am supposed to love my enemy. And for that, the saddest part is that I know that my father is my enemy. Yeah. That's crazy. Right? And. But I know that to be true. And therefore I do pray for him because I wanted so badly to hear the truth, but he is incapable of that. I don't even know that he. I think he's twisted his own mind to the point that what he believes to be true is true to him, but that's not the truth. And we know that there's a trail of victims to prove otherwise. Right? But I do pray for him because. Because even if on his very last breath he decides I'm going to cry out to God, then what an unusual moment it would be like if I by any good graces, get to make it to heaven. That I get up there and there's a healed man standing in front of me. I've never had that with him. I've never had. I've never had a dad who wanted to be a dad. I've had a dad who was a product and an image that he sold to people and an idol to others. And I would like to learn about him and who he is, but I'm not going to get that on Earth because that version and the thing that I want doesn't exist. And I know that. I'm sorry. I know that doesn't exist. That's why I'm here. Because I've held out for over 30 years that that would appear. And it's not coming. It's not happening. He's getting worse. He's getting more angry. More people are getting hurt, and. And I pray for him that one day he realizes that you lost everything, everyone that ever cared. You're losing them to anger. You know, anger will not fix the hole in your heart. And it won't fix a hole in ours either. So I have to choose forgiveness. I choose forgiveness for you. I forgive you. And I care about you. But I have. You know, I have to do this because maybe it will be the last thing he does is cry out to God and the day he meets him. And I'll get to meet a healed man.

[Anya Cain]

I don't know if we deserve that. Lena, I wanted to ask you. Is there anything else we didn't ask you about today?

[Lena]

No, I think we covered a lot. I'm really glad I even remembered some stuff that I probably just repressed. I just. Can I say something to the. I know there's certain people listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely.

[Lena]

I know that you. Certain people have certain versions. Victims of his have reached out to me. And I just want to tell you guys that I'm. I'm really sorry. And I hope you understand that I'm sorry I didn't speak sooner. I was a kid and I didn't ask for this. And I always thought I was doing the right thing. And I'm really sorry. And I hope that you get some healing. And. And I'm sorry for what he did to your families too. I'm sorry that he destroyed your parents and your grandparents. And you watch the people that you love crumble. I know what that's like. And I hope that this has validated the questions that you might have had. And. And, you know, and Paula, I really, really hope that you could just consider what's being said and ask yourself, am I doing the right, right thing by raging against these people? Because they don't deserve it. And you can fight for him without raging against others. It doesn't have to be this way. You don't have to keep acting this way. I think we're all tired of it being handled this way. And thank you guys for your support from me. I didn't expect that. And that's been really, really healing. Thank you.

[Anya Cain]

We are just so grateful to talk to you, Laina, and thank you again for doing this.

[Lena]

We do appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you guys for giving me a place. Yeah, I love you guys.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love you too.

[Anya Cain]

I do say just talking to you about non awful things has been really fun.

[Lena]

So it's been. It's been great privilege and an honor.

[Anya Cain]

To get to know you just as a person. You're very funny and very smart.

[Lena]

Oh, thanks. Debbie's learning all types of stuff about me today.

[Anya Cain]

All right, so that concludes our interview with Lena Temujin, Kenzu's biological daughter. I just want to express from the bottom of my heart how much I admire Lena and how much we are grateful to her sharing her story. This is a case where one man has dominated things. One man has called the shots and stage managed everything for decades. And by starting to speak the truth, by putting out her story, Laina is helping chip away at that. And I hope her story gives hope to other people involved in this case who have been forced to basically hide and basically be shamed for their part in this, even though they're victims of Tim Jinkenzu as well.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's really surprising she made reference to her father having fans. It is really surprising and a mystery to me that he does, and he obviously does. I don't understand. I think who and what this man is is very clear. And I think a lot of people have failed to understand how much it hurts his victims and how much it hurts those who loved Scott Macklem to glorify this man who does not deserve it. I also want to say that in this interview, Lena talked about how her. Her mother was forced to raise money for Mr. Kinzu by going door to door pretending to collect money for different charities. And he was, back then, taking advantage of the good hearts and noble intentions of people who believed someone they shouldn't. And he is still doing that today.

[Anya Cain]

And I want to say for the people who are listening, and maybe Team Kenzu may be coming to a conclusion that you made the wrong decision. I know the sunken cost fallacy and anchoring bias are powerful things. I know you feel maybe. I put in so much time proclaiming how wonderful this guy is, and what do I do now? And the thing is, you can always embrace the truth. You know, like, I. I don't. This is a situation where he fooled a lot of people for a long time. And it doesn't lessen you to admit that you did not have all the facts and that you were sold a bill of goods. Doesn't make anyone stupid, doesn't make anyone bad. What matters is how you react to that. And what matters is that people do not continue to ignore or minimize the rampant abuse, sexual, spiritual, mental, physical, emotional, that all of these women went through. And that, frankly, Laina's story breaks my heart so much because this is a daughter of this man. She did not ask to be in this situation. She didn't make any choices to be in the situation. She was born into it, as she says she was born into it, and she's had to deal with it for so long and have all the mixed feelings that. That come with this situation where you want to have a relationship with your dad, but you also don't want to subject yourself to his rages. She's not somebody who was testifying against him at trial. She's not a prosecutor. She didn't convict him. She's not a juror. Right. She's just his child. So the fact that this man is capable of raging against her to the extent that she. He has since the time she was real, frankly, before birth and then as an infant, as a child, as a young woman trying to meet him, I. I really think this. His treatment of Lena tells us everything we need to know about him and how much he's changed. And so, again, I. She's facing, you know, possibly a lot of wrath by doing this. We want to say we appreciate her, we're proud of what she's doing, and we just think she's a terrific person and the fact that she's willing to put herself out there and speak for the victims in this case is something that I'm extremely proud that she trusted us with her story. So thank you, Lena and I hope, I hope this is helpful. I hope this is helpful in her healing journey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases of we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for record its requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheep Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So we want to shout out one of our wonderful sponsors right now, and that sponsor is Happy Mammoth. This is a wonderful natural wellness brand. We've been using it and it's been terrific. They're a great solution if you feel like you might be dealing with some hormone deployment disruptors. I mean, that kind of happens to everyone. It's in the air, it's in the food, it's in lots of different products.

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[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

What is Quince?

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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