The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu Part Six "Your Sick Amusement"

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu Part Six "Your Sick Amusement"

Introduction

In Part Six of The Murder Sheet series titled "Your Sick Amusement," hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve deeper into the controversial 1986 murder case of Scott Macklem. Released on June 6, 2025, this episode scrutinizes the conviction of Temujin Kinzu, exploring defense theories, judicial reviews, and the disturbing behavior exhibited by Kinzu and his associates. The hosts reinforce their stance on Kinzu's guilt while addressing the persistent conspiracy theories propounded by his defense team.

Defense Theories and Rebuttals

The episode begins with a discussion of various defense theories advanced by Team Kinzu, notably the allegation that Leonard Massey, an enemy of Ronald Fizel, confessed to Scott Macklem's murder. Áine highlights the dubious nature of this claim:

Áine Cain [08:04]: "We say an enemy? What is that?"

Kevin counters the plausibility of Massey's involvement, pointing out Fizel's vendetta against Massey as a potential motive for fabricating such a confession.

Kevin Greenlee [08:40]: "So to me, that shows yet again how great Temujin is at manipulating witnesses and getting them to contrive stories."

Further, they address a more recent and unfounded theory suggesting that Kinzu's own defense attorney, David Dean, orchestrated Macklem's murder—a claim Áine vehemently dismisses as baseless and "profoundly stupid" ([10:33]).

Correspondence with Investigator Herb Wellser

The hosts detail their attempts to engage with Herb Wellser, the defense investigator for Kinzu, seeking transparency and evidence to assess Kinzu's claimed innocence. Despite repeated efforts, Wellser's responses were evasive and contradictory, failing to provide substantial evidence or clarify discrepancies in his reports.

Áine Cain [34:29]: "I worked at the Port Huron police department for 31 years, retiring as a detective lieutenant in 2005. I was actually working the day of the murder."

Kevin emphasizes the inconsistency between Wellser's summaries and the actual reports, underscoring the lack of credible evidence supporting Kinzu's innocence claims.

Kevin Greenlee [35:16]: "We didn't really get anywhere. They don't want us having stuff, it felt like, because we might pick it apart. Like that's what it felt like."

Analysis of Temujin Kinzu's Letter

A pivotal moment in the episode is the examination of a chilling 10-page letter written by Temujin Kinzu to his two daughters in 2002. Áine reads excerpts from the letter, revealing Kinzu's deep-seated anger, misogyny, and manipulative nature. The letter serves as a stark testament to Kinzu's character, showcasing his ability to dehumanize and attack those closest to him.

Áine Cain [74:49]: "You have sunk to the lowest depths of humanity in trying to destroy those around you for your sick amusement."

The hosts interpret the letter as evidence of Kinzu's relentless hostility and lack of remorse, reinforcing their conviction of his guilt.

Social Media Harassment by Kinzu's Team

Áine and Kevin expose the ongoing harassment perpetrated by Temujin Kinzu and his wife, Paula, against victims and their families through social media platforms. They present various screenshots of abusive messages targeting Crystal Macklem and her husband, illustrating a pattern of intimidation and character assassination.

Kevin Greenlee [83:54]: "Do you want to drag his name through the mud with no evidence or ..."

Áine Cain [89:59]: "How can we take this seriously? Like, we can't. ..."

The hosts condemn this behavior, highlighting its detrimental impact on the victims and the integrity of the case.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Áine and Kevin reaffirm their stance on Temujin Kinzu's guilt, emphasizing the overwhelming judicial consensus supporting his conviction. They criticize the conspiracy theories and baseless allegations propagated by Kinzu's defense team, underscoring the absence of credible evidence to question the verdict.

Kevin Greenlee [127:19]: "We have to remember that this action is bad, you shouldn't do it, it's threatening and you shouldn't do it to anybody at all."

The episode wraps up with Áine and Kevin addressing their audience, encouraging listeners to engage responsibly with true crime content and to support the victims affected by such heinous crimes. They also invite questions for future Q&A episodes, maintaining their commitment to journalistic integrity and factual reporting.

Notable Quotes

• Kevin Greenlee [03:06]: "If his case is really so blindingly obvious, why do all these people not see it?"

• Áine Cain [27:01]: "You can disagree with the outcome without necessarily being baffled by it."

• Kevin Greenlee [77:44]: "This is what we're dealing with here. He slut shames women a lot."

• Anya Cain [74:53]: "He really. His trigger is women doing stuff that he does not like."

Conclusion

Part Six of The Murder Sheet offers a comprehensive and critical examination of the murder of Scott Macklem and the subsequent conviction of Temujin Kinzu. Through meticulous analysis, incisive dialogue, and the presentation of harrowing personal letters, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee expose the complexities and dark undercurrents surrounding the case. This episode serves as a testament to their unwavering dedication to uncovering the truth and advocating for justice.

Transcript

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

Oh yeah, it's so frustrating, right? You just feel something is completely off.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

This is going to be the latest of our series of episodes on the 1986 murder of Scott Macklem. After this episode, we are going to cover other cases on the program, but we certainly plan to return to this case often in the future because it remains apparent to us that there are many things about this case that have not yet been fully explored. And I should also say we intend to do a question and answer episode on this case. So if you have any questions you'd like to hear us answer, please email them to us. A couple other things I want to note very quickly here at the top. Our other episodes have been fully scripted. This one we're going to be a bit looser off the cuff and you should also maybe you've already noticed I'm getting over a cold, so my voice may sound odd and I certainly apologize for that. So if you haven't listened to our previous episodes on the case, we recommend that you go back and do so.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, you'll understand the better underlying criminal case here. Of course, Kevin mentioned 1986 murder of Scott Macklem up in Michigan.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, and those episodes go into great detail about the considerable evidence against Kinzu and they explain why the jury in the case, as well as the two of us, concluded that he was absolutely guilty as charged. We're going to cover a lot of ground in this episode. We're going to talk about some of the theories that Team Kinzu has put forth about this murder. We're going to mention the number of courts who have reviewed this case and who dismiss Kinzu's arguments. We're going to refer to the hypocrisy of those who say they care about justice for Scott Macklem and who then attack his character in desperate attempts to contrive theories of phantom suspects. We're going to offer some highlights for you from our back and forth with Herb Wellser, who is an investigator for Team Kin TZU we also are going to get into the fact that Kin Tzu has not changed while he's been behind bars. We will look at a very remarkable long letter he wrote to two of his daughters. A letter that is full of hatred, anger and bile. We will also be getting into how Kinzu and his wife Paula attack people online, including giving out the phone number of one of Kinzu's rape victims. And finally, we will discuss Temujin Kinzu's own reply to our episodes, which he posted on his Facebook page. So let's get to it.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[Anya Cain]

We're the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the Murder of Scott Macklem. The Guilt of temujin Kinzu, Part 6. Your sick amusement.

[Anya Cain]

It. So just a quick editorial note. As in previous episodes, we will be referring to the convicted murderer in Scott Macklem's case as Temujin Kenzu. That is the name he seems to prefer now, he was previously called things like Frederick Freeman, John Lamar. You know, throughout these kind of court filings, he has so many different names and aliases that we just think it's also easier to just refer to him by his preferred name now. So we're going to be editing out any references to Freeman or Lamar and calling him Kenzu and Temujin Kenzu.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So just a note, that's just for clarity. And it's not. It's just for clarity. Excuse me. So let's talk about some of the theories been put forth over the years from Team Kinzu about who killed Scott Macklem. One of which that got a lot of attention was at one point the claim was that the real murderer was a man named Leonard Massey. And the so called evidence for this was that an enemy of Massey's named Ronald Fiesel claimed that Massey had confessed to him.

[Anya Cain]

And we say an enemy? What is that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Fizel had a long history with Massey. Maybe that's worth doing an episode on at some point. It's a complicated and interesting case, but Fiesel would do anything he could to try to get back at Massey. And so if Massey really had made this confession, you think it would have come up a lot earlier, but just by coincidence, it happened to come up after Fizel ended up being incarcerated in the same place as Temujin Kinsuk.

[Anya Cain]

Really?

[Kevin Greenlee]

So to me, that shows yet again how Great. Temujin is at manipulating witnesses and getting them to contrive stories. And I should say that at this point even Team Kinzu says oh, it wasn't Massey. So even they know how bad that looks. It's a ridiculous theory.

[Anya Cain]

So this came up like he's rooming, you know, he's staying in a place with this guy and then suddenly this guy starts saying oh, my sworn enemy who I've been trying to destroy forever. He told me he did it just happened to be while I was kind of in a, in a, in sharing space with this guy who is trying to, you know, convince other people that he's innocent.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we've seen how Kenzou tampered with witnesses in his own case, his so called alibi witnesses. And here we see him tampering with another witness behind bars and getting that witness to fabricate a story that goes to Kenzoo's favor. It's very blatant. It's very, very clear.

[Anya Cain]

I have a question. How do we know that Kenzo and his team have since dropped this angle?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, they've said it in court filings.

[Anya Cain]

They've actually said no, we're not doing that anymore.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kenzo has even said, oh yeah, they say I was the one that convinced him, but I had nothing to do with it.

[Anya Cain]

No, some other guy who said hey.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So you don't say that if you think it's a really strong thing theory.

[Anya Cain]

That's really weird. Who else would? Who else would? And it's interesting that he's acknowledging that the guy was had to be convinced to do this. So who else would come in and say, you know what, I want you to do my friend Temujin Kinzu a big favor.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's a ridiculous theory.

[Anya Cain]

But also just as a note, when you have to kind of put out nonsense like this, it's not really a great sign for your innocence. Just you know, as, as a rule. It's just not. I mean especially when it's like manufactured like this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So a more recent theory and this one I think is profoundly stupid, even stupider than the previous one.

[Anya Cain]

I actually the Massey theory to me is like I can kind of see where they were going with that. If this Massey character was maybe a bit, you know, if he had. It sounds like he was within the prison system too or he had a criminal background. But what you're about to say, I concur is one of the most stupid alternate theories I've ever heard. And I sat through the three day.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Hearing at Delphi yes, this is shockingly stupid. So before I get into it, I should say that Temujin Kinzu's defense attorney at his criminal trial is a man named David Dean. David Dean had a drug problem that is well documented. And so Team Kinzu's over the years claimed that, oh, the fact that he had this drug problem, it affected his performance at trial. And so that's one of the arguments they make that the trial was unfair. But we've read the transcripts. The guy did a great job at trial. There were some really very effective cross examinations. And so it's not a good argument that he was an ineffective counsel. And you don't have to just take my word or Anya's word for that, because as I say, this is an argument that Team Kinzu has made time and time again to various courts. And those courts have done their due diligence. Diligence. And they have looked at the transcripts and the records and they say, no, this guy did a good job. He wasn't an ineffective counsel at all.

[Anya Cain]

I think that's really important to state. Obviously, somebody having a drug problem, a lawyer having a drug problem can absolutely affect the outcome of a trial. Right? I mean, like, that's. But it's not as simple as saying this guy was struggling with something and therefore he could not have been an effective counsel. People who are dealing with addiction might be very high functioning and performing very well in their workplaces and falling apart in their personal life. I can attest to this because I, I mean, I, when I was drinking, I was doing pretty well at work, I think. I mean, for the most part, I'm not saying I was like the, you know, ace reporter of the world, but I mean, I was getting my work done. I was doing stories that did well. I wasn't making a bunch of misspellings, but I was still an alcoholic. So it's like you have to, you have to look at the context. You can't just say this guy had a drug problem. So therefore this. No, no, look at his performance at trial. If he performed poorly and that. And that could be somewhat attributed to the, the drug problem or just that he was ineffective in general. That's absolutely something that's relevant to talk about if it didn't. And when you really, when you look at Dean, I mean, he's doing a masterful job on some of these cross examinations. Like, he was good. He was doing his client a service. And, you know, his drug problem, therefore is. Is something to talk about and certainly something to investigate. And analyze, but it's not relevant. And it makes sense that the courts would not pursue that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They've made that argument time and time again, and it's been turned down time and time again. If you followed our coverage on Delphi, I know some listeners were frustrated when the defense attorneys in that case kept on making arguments even after those arguments were rejected by the court. And I'm here to tell you, Team Kinzu's arguments have been made and rejected and made again and rejected just over and over again. There's nothing to them. But we get that a bit more in a second. So David Dean has some involvement with drugs, and so this gets spun into a situation where they falsely claim, with absolutely no evidence, that Scott Macklem was also involved in the drug trade and that several powerful people in the area were also mixed up with that. And, in fact, Kim Zoo's own defense attorney was involved, and he alleges that it was his defense attorney, David Dean, who gave the order for Scott Macklem to be murdered. And that is just about the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.

[Anya Cain]

So the. It's not the butler did it. It's the defense attorney did it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Wow. Okay, That's. That is completely wild. I mean, points for creativity, obviously, but, like. I mean, but in all seriousness, what the heck? This is what people find. Com. I mean, like, when we're talking, people are ripping apart Robert Cleland for. For decades about him offhandedly talking about the plane theory. Right? Like, this guy flew in a plane, which is something that Kenzu himself raised in a phone call. But, like, again, you don't. You don't have to, like the plain theory. You can just disregard the witnesses, the alibi witnesses. But. But let's. Let's talk about. If you want to talk about people bringing up ridiculous theories, my defense attorney is the real bad guy. Is. Is probably one of the wildest I've heard ever. And I don't think it's something that you raise without evidence if you're not completely desperate.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I agree with that.

[Anya Cain]

It also fits into Kenzu's worldview that everyone is out to get him. So this guy Dean didn't serve him, I guess. You know, he didn't get him off. So obviously, he must be part of the conspiracy, too, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease and is not a substitute for care from a health care provider. So. But in fairness to Kinzu, he basically had no choice but to concoct some sort of really elaborate conspiracy theory to explain why he is still in prison. And the reason for that is because, as I alluded to earlier, since the jury returned its guilty verdict, his case has been reviewed by virtually every imaginable judicial authority in the state of Michigan. And all of those authorities have said the verdict is good and that he's exactly where he belongs because he killed a man. And so you have to have a conspiracy to explain why they would arrive at that conclusion. And I want to stress the point about all of these judicial bodies who have reviewed this case. And I'm going to do that by reading an excerpt from a press release we received from Michael Windling, who is the current Prosecuting attorney for St. Clair County, Michigan, which, of course, is where the murder occurred. Prosecutor Wendling writes, Mr. Freeman has challenged his conviction in the following forums. The 31st Circuit Court in St. Clair county, in front of three different state circuit judges, six separate panels of the Michigan Court of Appeals. Five separate appeals to the Michigan Supreme Court. Two separate habeas corpus petitions in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Michigan, including reviews from two judges from outside Michigan. These petitions have also been reviewed by the United States Court of appeals for the 6th Circuit three times, where three separate panels have rejected his claims. Mr. Freeman has also petitioned all 16 judges on the entire United States Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit to rehear the case en banc, and not a single judge voted to rehear the case. Mr. Freeman has sought commutation from two different Michigan governors, resulting in review by two different parole boards. Mr. Freeman's case has also been reviewed by at least five different elected St. Clair county prosecuting attorneys, end quote. So if his case, for instance, is really so blindingly obvious, why do all these people not see it?

[Anya Cain]

I think it's. It's a. It's easy for people who are not, you know, familiar with the system to just be like, well, nobody wants to admit they made a mistake and embarrass their colleagues, But I mean, the fact of the matter is, we cover this on the cheat sheet. You. You see cases get overturned, you see new trials be ordered. You see appeals. So that's not. You need to convince us that there's some sort of specific, you know, conspiracy afoot here in order for all these people to get in on it. And, like, nobody's done that. I mean, it's. It's very easy to yell conspiracy about everything when you don't know how anything works. And you also basically want to attack the outcome that you don't like. And for people who really want to believe he's innocent, I suppose it's easier to just be like, well, they're all corrupt, but why they're all part of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This big drug conspiracy.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, everyone's part of the drug conspiracy in Michigan. It's like, or they just think the case is stronger than you think. And maybe that's okay that you disagree with them, but you don't just get to scream corruption. I would hope that we would have learned from something like Delphi happening or for something like the Idaho case that's currently going on, that it's not responsible for people to just assume, you know, that people are corrupt and without evidence. Corruption does happen. I think it actually lessens our ability to speak about corruption when we just label things that we don't like as having those outcomes because of corruption. Because that's not what that. Where's the corruption here? Are all these people in on it? I think you told me that there was one judge on one of these courts that sort of momentarily was like, oh, yeah, maybe we should look into this. And then the rest of the court was like, absolutely not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So, I mean, like, there's been, there's been debates, but unilaterally, like, I mean, like, to the, to the point where, I guess, like, I should say the vast majority that have looked at this have been very resoundingly bad for Kenzu. I mean, like, that's absolutely true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is, let's be honest, these are people whose jobs it is to review court records and make these sorts of determinations. And I think there is an excellent chance that perhaps these judges, these many, many, many judges who have reviewed this case time and time again, there is a chance that perhaps they know more about the details of this case than some of the media who has covered it.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, don't, don't say that about the media. No, I agree. It's, it's like, it's also. They're seeing all of it and they're also like reviewing transcripts rather than just like self serving, you know, interviews that Kenzu gives to whoever wants one, you know, except for us. We'll get to that later.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We'll get to that a little bit later.

[Anya Cain]

Foreshadowing. But yeah, it's, it's, it's a matter of. I just, I guess I just am like, I, I don't understand why people like, see this case is like different where it's okay to just like expound randomly about conspiracies that must exist. Because I mean, like, in fairness to the conspiracy theory, like, if, if it's that, as you said, blindingly obvious that he's innocent. Yeah. It would have to be a conspiracy theory that would get all these people in line to conspire against giving him the new trial he deserves or to conspire against releasing him when he deserves that. You know, it's like, and I don't think we're putting too much faith in the system here because I think, you know, I mean, it's been reviewed, it's been looked at. It's like they didn't forget about it and throw away the key. I mean, he's gotten all of these chances and nobody's found anything. It's just, it's just self serving nonsense. When. And I, I think I would challenge people who are, you know, looking into this is like if, if, if you're going to say there's a conspiracy theory, present some evidence for that without making a bunch of logical leaps, without, you know, basically saying, well, I didn't like the outcome. The outcome baffles me. Well, it's baffling to you, but it really shouldn't be baffling to anyone who's looked at the evidence in this case. Yeah, you can disagree with something. You can disagree with the outcome without necessarily being baffled by it. You might have a case like that. Maybe you say, okay, I understand why they acquitted this person, but I disagree, but I understand why they did, versus being like, I can't believe they acquitted them. Like you in this case. It's like you have to look at the evidence and then you will see why they convicted him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes, it is very clear why this man was convicted and is very clear that the evidence was solid and that he did this crime. I want to talk about something. We've kind of alluded to it because we've alluded to the fact that there are unsupported claims, which is code for lies, that Scott Macklem was involved with drugs and that that is what caused him to be murdered. And it's very upsetting to me that people are baselessly attacking the character of this young man who lost his life so tragically. And it's one thing that's especially upsetting to me about the baseless attacks on Scott's charact is that a lot of the people who do it try to dress it up as they're doing something good for Scott. You hear a lot of people saying, oh, I care about Scott, I want to find out who killed him. And they know that it's obviously a targeted killing. So then you have to invent a reason why someone other than Temmin Kinzu would kill him. And that means you have to make some sort of baseless allegations about Scott's character. And so then they do that. And it just occurs to me, let's be honest, there is no one in this world who cares more about Scott Macklem than people like his mother, people like Crystal, the woman Scott loved, and people like the child that Crystal had. That was Scott's child. And these people have made it clear in their comments at the commutation hearing that they are absolutely convinced that the guilty man is Temujin Kinzu. And they're correct, because they also know the case well and they know he did it. And so it is upsetting when in order to justify or lend dignity to a person's quest to get a terrible person out of prison, you put on the mantle of someone who cares about Scott Macklem. And I'm just saying you should be honest with yourself and you should be honest with the public. You're not doing this for Scott Macklem. You're doing it for Temujin Kinzu, and that's fine. Just say it. The family doesn't deserve to have you say you're doing it for them when they don't want you doing it. Just. Just be honest.

[Anya Cain]

People close to this case are absolutely sick of basically interlopers coming in and declaring that they're going to solve it because it's already solved. I'm just being. I mean. And we'll talk about one of the biggest interlopers later on who's absolutely been doing this whole. Like, I care more about Scott than his family. I'm not exaggerating. That is what this person has been saying. We will get into that later. But it's. It's a. It's. People need to understand that. I think in order to have a better. I think we need to have people willing to set more boundaries. I think it's okay. I think it's great to have, you know, a perspective and come in and say, this is a wrongful conviction. Here's why. But I don't think it's appropriate really, to be trying to claim some kind of mantle, that you're doing it for the victim when the victim's family doesn't support any of this. Yes, let's have some boundaries and, you know, that's okay. You can do it anyway. But. But when the people that you're kind of claiming to be doing stuff for are appalled by the what's happened, I don't think. I don't think it's appropriate.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you're Team Kenzou, if you're Team Temujin, you are not Team Macklem. That's just a fact. And that's okay. Just be honest. And there's just something that's really appalling to me about people saying, oh, I'm doing this for Scott, and then they try to drag Scott's name through the mud.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it is appalling. It's not right. And again, you can just do something separately. That's okay. But then you just don't get the, you know, the points of, you know, it's virtue signaling. I mean, that's what it is. It's like, oh, no, I'm really. No, no. Let's look at the. The family. People who actually love Scott don't want to see a bunch of people say that he's a drug dealer without evidence. And like, again, like, it's a situation where if there were. If there were evidence of. Of any of that, of their evidence that he's some drug kingpin that met a bad end because of that. I want to see it. But, like, let's not act like we're doing it for Scott's benefit. And, oh, don't you want to see the real killer get convicted? Yeah, I do. And he was in the 80s.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it's not just drug dealing. They also falsely claimed that Scott Macklem.

[Anya Cain]

Was a rapist, which is so interesting because that's what Temujin Kenzu is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Temujin Kenzu is a rapist.

[Anya Cain]

It's projection. But anyways, we'll get more into.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We'll get more into that because there's.

[Anya Cain]

A specific person that we're seeing do this, and it's appalling.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. No pun intended. So at this point, we did reach out, before we did any episodes on this case, to the Kinzus. We got a reply from Paula. We'll read a bit of that later. But she did Paula Kenzoos. Paula Kenzoos is Tempter Kinzu's wife.

[Anya Cain]

She married him while he was incarcerated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. One thing she said is that you should reach out to our investigator, a man named Herb Wellser. We'd actually reached out to Herb Wellser months before, and he hadn't replied, but we reached out to him again. Let. Let's go into some of the back and forth between us and Mr. Welser. This has been edited for time and for clarity. Nadia, would you rather read your call? Why don't you be Herb Wellser? I'll be us.

[Anya Cain]

Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is us writing to Herb Wellser, the defense investigator for Tem Jenkinsu. Some of our colleagues in the True Crime podcast have let us know that you shared some information and files on the case with them that left them convinced of the innocence of Temujin Kinzu. Would be possible for you to share that information with us so we can ensure our coverage is as fair and as accurate as possible. We've heard that you have information in your files which would exonerate Kinzu. That is what we would be interested in. Our research has led us to a different conclusion, but we very much want to be fair to all sides and would be interested in whatever information you have that indicates he is innocent and that the murder was not related to him. And again, we were of the understanding you had files in the case that support the idea of Mr. Kinzu being innocent. If that is correct, we would find it helpful to have the opportunity to review those raw files before talking with you.

[Anya Cain]

Do you have any documents right now? I have sent over a hundred reports to the U of M Innocence Clinic. Do you have specific questions regarding why he was convicted? If so, I probably have conducted interviews and submitted a report about it. One of the best documents is why Temujin Kenzu is innocent. I worked at the Port Huron police department for 31 years, retiring as a detective lieutenant in 2005. I was actually working the day of the murder.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We wrote back. At this point, we have several thousands of pages, including the complete transcript of the trial, transcripts from other hearings, and various filings and affidavits on both sides. If you think any summaries you have prepared for Mr. Kinzu's innocence would be helpful, we would be interested in looking them over. We would be also interested in anything you have that you feel is relevant. Off the top of my head, I have seen suggestions that Scott Macklem may have been involved in drugs or even been a rapist. If you have evidence of that, we would be interested in seeing it. We have also seen hints that people within the community may have been involved in some fashion. That even Mr. Kinzu's attorney, Mr. Dean, may have played a role in the crime. If you have any evidence of that, we would be interested in seeing it.

[Anya Cain]

Attached is a document put together by proving innocence. I would read about how Tim Jenkinsu was claiming he was innocent. I assumed this was another guilty person in prison trying to get out. What really bothered me was the crazy allegation, like things you mentioned, David Dean being involved, corruption in the Port Huron Police Department, etc. The Port Huron Police Department and city of Port Huron were wonderful to me and still are. I've worked on this case for 18 years. As each year goes by, I'm more convinced that Temujin had nothing to do with this murder. I've never caught him in one line of me. Have you had the opportunity to listen to part four of the Consult podcast? This is a group of retired FBI profilers. That one is of such importance because they discussed Temujin and his background. He was not a good person and his own worst enemy in many ways. But in the end, they come to the same conclusion as many others have in the past, that he is innocent.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I want to stop us from this reading for a moment and discuss just a little bit this report he sent us, because to me, it highlights one of the main problems about online discourse about this case, which is there's an old saying that it's not what you don't know that's the problem, it's the things you do know that aren't so. And I can tell you I've looked at a lot of online discussion about this case, including recent discussions sparked by our episodes, including conversations where contributions were made by people we respect. And I was shocked by the number of mistakes, incorrect factoids, and I was also shocked by the fact that all of these factoids, all of these mistakes are mistakes in a way to make you think Temujin Kinzu is innocent.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, all the errors go in one direction.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. So these discussions are full of errors. And the problem is it's often difficult to know what these errors are unless you were foolish and spent hours like Anya and I did, poring over every document in this case. And there is an example of this in this report that Mr. Wellser sent us. Why don't you read this one paragraph, Anya?

[Anya Cain]

This tunnel vision paragraph. Yes, quote, this tunnel vision and rush to judgment occurred despite the fact that Scott Macklin, the murder victim, had been followed and threatened by two men who were visibly upset with him. Them. Common sense suggests that it's much more likely that these two men had something to do with the crime than a man about 500 miles away living his own life. But no one cared to do a real investigation. They had their man, and the real killer remains free. Without any evidence whatsoever linking Kenzie to the crime, police and prosecutors focused exclusively on him as their only suspect within hours of the murder. It would take pages to highlight all the failures of the prosecutor police investigation, but they include failing to attempt to identify the two individuals who Scott Macklem clearly knew from past contact, who allegedly came to confront him at his workplace.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that sounds pretty dramatic. There's these two people. We have no idea who they were. Folks.

[Anya Cain]

That sounds terrible. I mean, that sounds like. Whoa. Okay, Scott had some other enemies. Let's get into that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, why don't you read this couple of paragraphs here from a police report written about the same incident.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, man. 3pm Location, George Innes Menswear, Huron Avenue, talked with Al Govine and he related that all of the employees were quite close around the store and that Scott had mentioned in conversation different times about an acquaintance of Crystals following him around and threatening him and being weird with Crystal, and that he experienced vandalism and theft from his car. One day, Scott approached Al at the rear part of the store and stated that the subject he mentioned was now in the store near the front. Al stated he looked to see two males looking at clothing. He saw the face of one real good. The other had his face turned down in a way so he could not describe him. Gobind said that later, after the crime, Sergeant Bounds showed him some photographs and he identified Temujin Kenzu as the one he saw in the store that day. Gobind stated that the subjects did not approach Scott, who elected to remain at the back of the store. He felt Scott wasn't necessarily afraid. However, he did not want anything starting at the store. Gobind stated that nothing further happened and the subjects finally left the store. Okay, come on. Like what?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this. This is what online discussions are full about people. People, including people we respect, will say, oh, isn't it suspicious that X and what they say is just completely untrue. So what we have here is an incident saying, oh, isn't it suspicious? We don't know who these people are who stalked Scott. Guess what? It's in a police report. We know who one of them was. It was Temminkinza.

[Anya Cain]

The sloppiness. The sloppiness of. Of the stuff that's been put out there. And listen, I don't blame anybody because when you read some of this stuff the first time, it sounds really compelling. I get that. But there's also not really point. There's not really much of a point in debating any of this, as long as we're not operating from the same sets of facts and the same shared reality. This is reality. This is reality. These two men were identified. One of them was Temujin Kenzu. That's what you need to know. So this idea that there's mysterious two men who are just floating around there in Michigan, nobody knows. That's not True. They're misconstruing an actual event that happened and conflating it with the idea that we don't know who these two guys are. And it's just, it's frustrating because it's like I really, I understand where people are coming from, where they don't think there's enough evidence in the case or it's. It doesn't, it hasn't sold them on his guilt. And I. That that's a perfectly respectable position that I understand. And you know, that's. That's great. People can come to different conclusions and a diversity of opinions is welcomed. That being said, we need to have our opinions be based on reality and actual facts and not just like these kind of things that people are throwing out there that are frankly garbled versions of the truth that are coming from Team Kenzou. For people who are writing reports for him about how innocent he is, those are not to be trusted by themselves. You can take those into account, but you have to cross check them with what is in the actual case record.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think the number one reason people believe Temujin Kinsey is innocent is because they've been given bad information.

[Anya Cain]

That is absolutely right. Garbage in, garbage out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The jury who got to hear all the vetted evidence, they came to an obvious conclusion and they were correct. But let's get back to our correspondence with Mr. Welser again. I'm reading us and Anya is reading for Mr. Welser. I wrote the report did not address the issues I mentioned. In your email you referred to the crazy allegations about things like David Dean being involved. I'm sure you are aware that those allegations were made by Kinzu and his team in court filings. Do you consider them to be crazy that is not supported by evidence or is there evidence for them? If so, I would be interested in seeing it. You have good things to say about the Port Huron Police Department. I have heard good things about them too. Do you have doubts about the aspects of Kinzu's theories that attack the Port Huron Police Department? Kinzu and his team have also made allegations that Scott Macklem was a rapist and or involved with drugs. Is there any evidence for them? If so, I would be interested in seeing it. The article you sent suggests that Crystal perjured herself on the stand in the trial. Is that your belief? I've heard all four parts of the consult. I'm aware of Kinzu's background and that he was not a good person. Is there any evidence in your mind that he has changed? He posts Attacks on Crystal from time to time on his social media.

[Anya Cain]

Any allegations of David Dean being involved are not supported by evidence. David struggled with substance abuse, but I in no way believe he was involved. I did review Temujin's jail records for while he was awaiting trial. During the five months that he was in jail awaiting trial, David Dean came there one time to visit him. Temujin made several phone calls to David's office asking to speak to him. Very few times did he call Temujin. I do not have any evidence that Crystal committed perjury. I've never found any evidence that Scott Macklem committed a rape. I did interview one person who claimed to be at a party with Scott Macklem when Scott was doing drugs. But this person's statement may not be reliable as to whether or not Temujin has changed. I do not feel comfortable giving an opinion regarding that. But my question is, should an innocent person be sentenced to life in prison for not being a model citizen? After the trial, much has been uncovered as to how a conviction was was obtained.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So let's step out of the correspondence. Again.

[Anya Cain]

I appreciate him saying that he doesn't believe the David Dean theory because that is a stupid theory.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a stupid theory. This is the defense investigator. He's worked on this case for 18 years, Paula Kins, who said we should talk to him. He says nope, no evidence for that stupid theory about the defense attorney. He also concedes no evidence that Crystal committed perjury. If your own investigator doesn't believe the Crystal committed perjury, then maybe it's time that Team Kinzu as a whole puts that aside and stops attacking her for telling the truth on the stand.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, maybe apologize to her for all they've put her through over these years.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So if we're assuming, as we should, that everything she said on the stand was true, that includes her talking about Temujin owning a shotgun. She said that on the stand. Wellzer further concedes no evidence that Scott committed a rape. And the only so called evidence that Scott was involved with drugs is someone who tells a story that Welzer says is unreliable. And again, this comes from Team Kinzu's own investigator, been on the case for 18 years. If even he does not have evidence of these things, we can safely assume that the claims about Scott being involved in bad things are untrue and that when Team Kinzu suggests otherwise, they are lying.

[Anya Cain]

Also, can I just point something out like just really quickly because I just like, I don't know, you can smoke pot at a party and not be murdered over drugs. Like, we all are aware of that, right? Like, we all are aware that, like, you can experiment with drugs or do drugs occasionally or even have a drug problem. And that doesn't make you a cartel kingpin who's out, you know, who's is being targeted by rival gangs. Like, I guess I'm just like, beyond anything else, I don't care if he did drugs occasionally. I've not seen any evidence that he did. But if he.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It.

[Anya Cain]

That doesn't even mean anything. So we're.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Doesn't mean a thing.

[Anya Cain]

We're not even in the realm of, like, getting to relevancy now. If you say, okay, you're involved in a drug sale that went bad and you piss some people off and they're after you, that's a different situation. But that is a specific situation that you would have to have people addressing, not just he. He tried pot at a party once. Okay? So I just want to be very clear about this. Like, I'm. I'm. I'm left very cold by this narrative from. From the jump. Because we need to. We need to overcome a lot of hurdles for me to believe that we have a good alternate suspect versus the guy who was telling people he was going to kill Scott Macklem and who.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Was seen there by witnesses. Like, it's not incriminating statements. It's not a.

[Anya Cain]

It's not really. It really isn't. And, but like, you know, but like, even if you want to say, well, okay, but maybe there was someone else, fine, but we, we have a long ways to go to cultivate. You can't just say, ooh, drugs. And then, like, that fills in all the blanks. What drugs? Was he selling them? Did he rip somebody off? Like, what are we talking about? What specifically happened? You can't, you know, like, it's like saying someone was the victim. Like, the murder was. The motive was robbery, but you can't tell anyone what was stolen. It's like, no, we need something specific and concrete here. We cannot just be. I don't think it's fair to just trash a dead man who can't defend himself and basically trashes anyone who knew him who says he wasn't involved in drugs without having something very specific in mind when you're saying those things.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Temujin Canzu took this man's life, and now his team wants to take his character. But before we.

[Anya Cain]

I appreciate Wellzer's candor in indicating. Well, I don't see any. Any of that. But again, It's. He's saying one thing, and then other people are out there spouting their mouths on other things.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So Kinzu and his acolytes, they love to make the claim that, sure, Kinzu was a bad guy when he was a free man, but he's a completely different person now. So I found it interesting that defense investigator Herb Wellser would not even offer comment when we asked him whether or not Kin Zoo has changed. That's a very easy question.

[Anya Cain]

I don't. It's interesting when I see people talking about this. Yeah, he used to be a bad guy. What do they mean? What do they mean? I. I want to know what people mean. Do they mean that they think he is guilty of raping and beating women, but that he just happened not to go after the fiance of one of those women who he was targeting and stalking? If that's okay. I mean, if that's the case. Okay, I. I understand that. If it's. If it's. No, he wasn't as bad as all these women say, then. So are we saying that all of these people who came forward forth about being victimized by Kenzou are all lying in the same exact way? Like, are they part of the conspiracy? I'd love some clarity on that. So, like, who's lying here? Or is no one lying? But it's just that he happened to be very unlucky, and somebody else killed Scott before he could or something. You know, like, that's what. That's what I want to know. When people say he used to be a bad guy, what do they mean? I have a feeling about what's meant by that, and it's just reading between the lines. But I. When I see people talking about, well, he used to be a bad guy, I think they meant, you know, oh, he's. You know, it was back in the day, and he was sleeping with all these girls, breaking all these hearts. He was kind of a bit of a wild man, but, you know, cool guy to hang out with. That's not what he was. That's not accurate. Okay. And that's also. I don't think that makes you necessarily a horrible person. I mean, it's not nice to cheat on people or break hearts, but there's a big. There's a huge difference. That could just be someone being a young guy and being kind of wild, sewing his oats and whatever. There's a big difference between what I think he's been portrayed as, which is that. And what he was actually doing, which was being an abuser, abusing women and raping women and beating up anybody who stopped him or tried to stop him beating up anyone he saw as a sexual rival. Okay. He didn't just do this to Crystal and Scott. He did this to multiple people. This was a pattern of behavior. So I, I would love someone to quantify. How do you, what, how is he bad and how has he changed and how is that relevant to this conversation? Because I, I don't feel like I've seen that it's a lot of dancing or. And the reason I think there's a lot of dancing around this is because Kenzu is very active in this online conversation. He's posting. He. No, I think there's an, a kind of, a lack of willingness to say anything that might offend him. So I think, you know, have people who are actually kind of tailoring what they're saying to make sure that he doesn't freak out. Yeah, life gets rough, but we can always seek help. Therapy can be the help you're looking for when it comes to working through things like depression, anxiety and trauma. We've both done therapy and we have had really good experiences.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Finding and arranging therapy is the one thing about therapy that is not so great. There's nothing more frustrating than having to fight through insurance wrangling and high expenses and and long wait times to get the help you need.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Join the thousands who've already turned to RULA for support on their journey to better mental health and well being. Getting started is easy. Just visit ruala.commsheet today. When you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Please support our show by letting them know we sent you. It's a simple way to help us while you take the first step towards the care you deserve. Go to r-ula.commshe now and connect with a licensed therapist who truly cares. Your Mental health matters. People might react in a certain way that'll make him look bad. We got to protect Kinzu. No one seems to really care that much about standing up for Crystal or the actual victims of this case. They just want to use the name Macklem to wrap themselves in phony virtue. But let's get back to our emails with Welzer. This is us. We feel the idea of David Dean being involved is ludicrous. Yet Kinzu has suggested that he was. We have also found no evidence to support Scott Macklin being a rapist or being involved with drugs. Yet the Kinzus have publicly suggested both of those to be true. We are sure you understand that when people repeatedly say things that don't check out as the Kinzus have done in this case, it is difficult to lend credibility to other things they say. Do you have any thoughts as to why the Kinzus have done these things? We agree there is no evidence that Crystal committed perjury. But want to note that the document you shared with us this morning makes a different assertion. It stated that Kristol told false, bizarre and completely fabricated stories. Much of the rhetoric from Kinzu's corner of the case seems to involve personally attacking Crystal. I agree that an innocent person should not be convicted of murder because he's a serial rapist. After a review of the trial transcript, I feel confident he is guilty. Are there particular issues with the trial that you believe we should be aware.

[Anya Cain]

Of regarding Temujin allegations in the past? Many. I am not going to attempt to defend. From reading the trial transcript, I understand you were coming to the conclusion that he is guilty. But there is so much that he has been uncovered after the trial that indicates otherwise.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I appreciate your honesty in saying that you're not going to attempt to defend many of the things Temujin has alleged. It does affect his credibility.

[Anya Cain]

I would like to mention Temujin being referred to as a serial rapist. He had so many girlfriends it is hard to keep track of them. Would Temujin kill Scott Macklin over Crystal because of jealousy when he had women wherever he went?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's step out for that for a second too. Because this is something else that Team Kinzu does. They seek to diminish Crystal a lot.

[Anya Cain]

Crystal wasn't that important to him. He didn't. He wanted to dump her. She was the one who was after him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Please remember in the commutation hearing transcript, Kinzu said that at the time of the murder he falsely believed there was a possibility that the baby Crystal was carrying was his and not Scott's. That seems to be a strong motive.

[Anya Cain]

That is a strong motive, especially when, you know, you know, some of the background. I, I, I, I'm going to tell you this, like we need, it's 2025, okay? Ted Bundy did not kill all the women he encountered in life. He killed certain women in certain contexts. Okay. That doesn't mean he's, but it's like, it's the, it's this like, idea that I don't think people understand domestic abuse or domestic violence or sexual violence sometimes because you would get these women in these relationships and treat them violently and treat them poorly and rape them. Like that was his M.O. that it's fair to call him a serial rapist. He wasn't attacking strangers or anything like that. But I also think this idea, like, he could have sex with other women, it's not about necessarily sex. He wants to dominate them. He wants them to obey his every whim. He's a, he's a misogynistic predator. Okay, he, well, he's a misogynist, but he also will go after men who stand in his way. So it, like, I think this idea of like, oh, well, you know, he could have gotten laid anywhere. It's like, yes, but that's not really necessarily all he's after here. He's, he's after control over these relationships. And this is something that multiple women testified to at his commutation hearing. I understand what Crystal described was a really extreme and disturbing scenario about their relationship. And I understand people who've never necessarily been through that or don't have any real, you know, understanding of how those abusive relationships works. I understand them being like, that's, that's hard for me to believe. How could that happen? But the fact of the matter is it does happen. And she's not the only one who described that identical circumstance. You had multiple women getting up and saying, that happened to me too when I was with him and he attacked my then boyfriend. So it's a situation where I don't, I, I, I guess I'm just kind of like, you know, you want to knock down Crystal, but what about everybody else?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Exactly.

[Anya Cain]

And again, it's not about, I don't think it's a, for, for someone like Temujin. I don't really think it's about like, oh, I could just get a new girlfriend. No, it's, it's about like, this woman is defying me. How dare she do this and steal my baby with this new guy who's interloping she belongs to me. He's possessed. He's possessive, he's controlling. This is what we've heard from multiple women. It's not, it's not that surprising. He's not just some kind of guy. This is why I say when I, he's, oh, I'm a bad person because I just had sex a lot. I don't, I, I think he's a bad person because of what he was, how he's treating people. You know, I mean, it's not, it's not that he was promiscuous. It's that I think he was promiscuous. But he also seems to, and you'll, you'll see this later on, but like, I, I, especially in the letter that we're going to read at the end of this, but he slut shames women a lot. There's a lot of, like, him questioning, you know, why do you have so many boyfriends and stuff like that? And, and maybe that's okay for him in his mind, but I don't think that's, I think that's something he reacts very badly to when women are doing it. And he perceived. He's kind of couching Crystal's behavior in that way to kind of, I think, attack her. And I, I think again, I, I don't, I think people are kind of just not understanding how abuse works.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And also, like, Can I just say, like, one more thing? It's just, I don't know, like, it's 2025. We kind of need to understand how abuse works. And, and, and when people say things like, I think this comes up later when people say things like, well, Crystal was raped by him, but then why did she date him for, like, several weeks afterwards? That, that happens. We know that we have a better understanding of rape now and the, the, what happens between the rapist and the rape victim. We understand that better now. We don't need to have conversations that are kind of dragging us backwards, because what we're telling rape victims when we have conversations like that is we don't understand anything like, yeah, people stay with abusers. It happens.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The whole thing is upsetting. And the lengths people go to, to bend themselves into rhetorical pretzels to try to defend this convicted murderer and serial rapist baffles and saddens me. Before we get back to our exchange with Herb Wellser, what we're about to describe in our exchange is one of the oddest things that has happened to me when I've communicated with a source. I Still don't understand this.

[Anya Cain]

I don't either.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya read Herb's email.

[Anya Cain]

You asked about Scott McLemon drugs. I let you know about the interview of the man who claimed to be with Scott at a party and Scott was doing drugs. But this person may not be reliable. I did interview another person who went to high school with Scott and is very reliable. He saw Scott a year or two after graduation with a known drug user slash dealer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Is this a person you found and interviewed since my original question. Can you share his statement? What's his name? Would he be willing to talk with us?

[Anya Cain]

Attached is my report. He lives in the area of the Macklems and has many ties to persons involved, so he asked to remain confidential. The person he speaks of is T. I met with him once in his restaurant. He told me to come back the next day for an interview. He was not there when I went and has avoided me since.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya, please read some excerpts from this potential bombshell of a report.

[Anya Cain]

Date:Feb 5, 2008 Interview anonymous caller on this date at 11:57am I received a call from a man who at this time wants to remain anonymous. Anonymous caller stated that he went to high school with Scott Macklem and that the two of them shared a locker together at various times while they went to high school. Caller stated that he used to go over to Scott's house and spend the night with Scott and they were pretty good friends. He stated even after Scott's death that he still goes over and visits Scott's parents and sees him quite often. Caller stated that during high school Scott Macklin was very popular in schools. He stated that Scott was an athlete, a goody two shoes and his parents treated Scott very well. He stated that Scott was not confrontational in any way when they went to school together and he is not aware of any drug usage or sales by Scott Macklem during his high school years. The caller stated that he has never heard from anyone that Scott Macklin was involved in any way with drugs. When he read in one of the website blogs the comment made that t made to the Times Herald reporter that sent up a red flag.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm going to interrupt Anya for a moment. We looked this up newspapers.com a wonderful resource. Many many years after the death of Scott Macklem. T was once described by a Times Herald reporter is having been a friend of Scott's. We imagine that this is what is being referenced to here. Let's get back to this bombshell report Anya.

[Anya Cain]

Quote the caller felt that if Scott Macklin began to hang around With T after they graduated from high school, then drugs could very well be behind Scott's killing. The caller described T to me as a real slime bucket. He stated that T hung out with jocks, smoked pot, and acted like a rich boy. Caller stated that T was not a close friend of Scott Macklem's in high school, but he did hear them talk about each other a couple of times and believes they were more or less just acquaintances in high school. Caller stated that approximately 1998 or 1999, he, a buddy and a roommate went to T's residence to pick him up to go to a couple of bars in the Mount Clemens area. The caller stated that he went up to T's door and noted that there were blankets over the windows at the front of the home. He stated that when they opened the front door, he could see a lot of children's toys laying on the floor in the living room. T was sitting there in the living room watching a porno film on television. Caller did not see any children in the home at that point. The caller stated that the four of them went down to Mount Clemens to a couple of bars and on the way there, T was smoking marijuana joints. He stated that they later came back to Port Huron and went to the Blue Water bowl on Lapeer Avenue. Caller stated that while they were going, while they were in the Blue Water bowl, he was talking to his friend at the bar and T and the other subject kept going in and out of the bar. The caller asked his friend why T and the other subject kept going in and out of the bar and the friend told the caller they were probably going out in the parking to make some cocaine deals. The caller stated that he did not want to have anything further to do with T has not seen him since that night. Respectfully submitted, Herbert C. Wellser Jr. Welder Investigations.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, I, I, I, I think there's a lot of obvious points to be made after that, and I think I made them in the next email we wrote to Herb. This is me writing to Herb Wellser. Perhaps I'm dense, but I'm not finding what you said would be in your report. You said the person you interviewed saw Scott a year or two after graduation with a known drug user dealer. You further indicated that person was T in the report. The person you interviewed is not cited as having seen Scott and T together after graduation. In fact, the person makes reference to if Scott has started to hang around T. The use of the word if indicates that the person doesn't seem to have personal knowledge of the two men being acquainted. And in fact, the possibility only seems to have occurred to him after he saw a comment t made to a newspaper reporter nearly 20 years after the killing. Am I missing something? Anya is going to read Herb Wellser's complete email in response.

[Anya Cain]

You are correct.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I wrote back. So to be clear, you are agreeing that the document you sent does not match the summary you gave us this morning?

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that was it. No other explanation as to why he sent us something that didn't match up with how he described it? Did he just not read the report? Did he think we would just read the summary and accept it and then not read the report? I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

I think that's what's been happening. I think that's why the coverage in the mainstream media has been what it is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. I think people accept these half facts. They don't do the basic homework because his narrative about Scott being involved with drugs, it just fell completely apart.

[Anya Cain]

Can I just say something? Can I just say something? All of us. You listening at home right now? We all probably went to school with somebody who was smoking pot or maybe even got into some kind of drug dealing. It's a pretty endemic issue. Okay, If. If you wanted to. If you wanted to go back to my high school and find somebody who was an acquaintance of mine in high school that maybe I hung out with after high school who dealt pot or, or was in, I don't know, cocaine or whatever, that doesn't make me a. Involved in the drug trade. It's. It's a small town. It's a small high school. It's a small area. You can know people and not be. You need to have so much more. Like, let's take everything in this report seriously. You need to have so much more than this to be saying that someone must have been killed in the drug treat. This is nothing. This is. This is nothing. This is embarrassing. Like, if this is what they're basing it off of. What.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's embarrassing on multiple levels, including the fact that it did not support his summary in the slightest.

[Anya Cain]

I just don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It would be nice if he explained what happened.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I forgot or something. I don't know. It's just weird. It's like, it's like, like they're. They. When you really, like, they put out so much. That sounds so strong and so obvious. Of course. It's a wrongful conviction and then you scratch the surface and it. There's nothing there. It's just not right. It's just wrong. Again, that's why it's hard to debate or talk about this with people, because they're just. They have the wrong facts. The facts they have are not correct. And this is. Again, we're just. We're just supposed to assume without evidence that Scott was deeply involved in drugs because a guy claimed to be his friend in the newspaper, and then another friend said, well, I, I don't. They didn't really know each other that well when I was around them. But if his, you know, quote in the newspaper is accurate and they were good buddies, he may have dragged him into drugs because he wasn't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Went into a parking lot because he was.

[Anya Cain]

He was smoking pot when I met him, and he went back and forth in between to go out to a parking lot when I was hanging out with him one time years ago, and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He was watching porn.

[Anya Cain]

Like, okay, what this? You have to assume so many things to. To find any value in this, you have to assume so many things. And again, like, a responsible. I think a responsible innocence advocacy would. Would not rely on destroying the victim's, you know, like, reputation without having more than this. Listen, if you, If. If you had, like, you know, a bunch of people, like, you know, a ton of credible people, or maybe Scott has a history of getting arrested for dealing with. Or a bunch of people are saying, yeah, no, I swear on my life he was selling me cocaine. Okay, then. Then we can have a conversation about that. That's fine. Like, I'm not saying you can't publish anything bad about a murder victim, but, like, you, we're, like, you're asking people to assume that he was into something really bad and kind of brought on his own death based on this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. This is your basis for dragging a dead man's reputation through the mud.

[Anya Cain]

And again, like, I don't know why. And in. In fairness to Mr. Wells, or at least he noted, like, hey, I'm not saying that, but he's giving us something that seems to be what a lot of other people are saying, and it's just not. It's not enough. It's just. It's really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He forwarded me an article saying Crystal committed perjury, and they said, oh, yeah, I don't think Crystal committed perjury. It's head spinning. It's like these people talk about these things one way if they're talking to the general public, and they talk about them in a different way if they're talking with someone who's actually read the entire file.

[Anya Cain]

And again, I, I just want to note, we Asked again and again to get, like, everything he had because we wanted to review it for ourselves. Like, I don't really want his summary of something. I want the original document. And I'll. I'll look at his summary and take that into account. But, like, we didn't really get anywhere with that. As you note in these emails. We kept on being like, okay, can you just send us what you think is relevant. Like, I mean, we don't know what he has, so it's not like we can, like, do a. An order on doordash and say, give us this, this, and this. If there's something we want to be, like, we want to put forward both sides. Okay? That was why we reached out to him, because we wanted to have this other side. And we thought maybe there would be some documents that we can kind of read from to kind of balance it out. We have a view that he's guilty, and we were very honest with everyone about that from the jump. We were not trying to hide that and say, oh, yeah, talk to us so we can ambush you. No, we were saying, this is how we feel, but we're open to both sides. Please send us what you have that you feel is relevant. And we got nowhere. They don't want us having stuff, it felt like, because we might pick it apart. Like, that's what it felt like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They have nothing.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe I. Maybe I'm getting the wrong idea. But it really didn't. It was not like I would think, like, if I were very confident about something in this situation, I'd be like, oh, yeah, have at it. Bang away all you want if you disagree. But, like, this is the truth, and this was what will come forward. But instead it was just like, here's a report that I wrote and some other guy proving innocence wrote, oh, it's full of stuff that I don't agree with, but okay. And then this thing happened. Oh, but it's not exactly. Like I said it is, but I'm not going to explain why that is. Okay, thanks. Like, what? Yeah, this is what. And again, like, I get. I get that us saying, hey, we disagree with the prevailing narrative here. I get that that's a bit scary. Or you're like, oh, no. But, like, I mean, we're just trying to be honest. I think if we were being, like, duplicitous, we would have just come in and been like, oh, yeah, we totally agree with you. And then, like, get you on the record and make you look bad. Ask all these questions now. But we were trying to be above board. We were trying to be like honest and kind of like almost like wow us, convince us, send us a bunch of stuff. And even if we hadn't been convinced by whatever they were going to have, we could have at least put it in there and been like, here's the other side, here's where they're coming from. But it was just a bunch of like pre chewed nonsense followed by facts that didn't actually align with what we knew to be true from reading the transcript. Yeah, you know, I, I think, I think the people working with Temajinkenzu have been chewing the media's food for them this whole time. And I think that, I think that is why the coverage has been what it's been. I'm talking about mainstream media, I'm talking about like, you know, newspaper coverage, I'm talking about coverage in the mainstream press, TV coverage. I'm, I'm talking about like this has been going on for years, it's not new. And it's all taken that tenor, it's all taking that kind of tone of just like, oh, the facts are being interpreted for the journalists. You know, it's a media operation at this point more than anything. And it's like, and that's one thing if you're trying to get your side out, and I understand that, but I think like when, when you're putting out stuff that's just not true or is like so thinly sourced that it's basically irrelevant, then I, then there's some misinformation that's kind of become very pervasive in this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Should we move on?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So when people keep showing you over and over again exactly who they are, at some point you need to believe them. In 2002, convicted murderer Temu sent a remarkable 10 page single spaced letter to his two daughters. And this, this letter is the subject of a rare disagreement between Anya and I. I, I just wanted to share an excerpt from it and Anya felt it was important to share the entire letter and I was worried if we shared the letter people would just tune out because it's very, very unpleasant to listen to.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I felt like people are going to accuse us of taking this out of context. So I wanted to have the whole thing in there so it's like there's no context.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So here is the compromise we made. I'm going to in a moment read an excerpt from this letter and then at the end of the episode, after we wrap up, stick around because there is a recording of about 30 minutes commercial free of Anya reading this entire awful letter. And if you can't get through it, I don't blame you.

[Anya Cain]

I want people to understand. I think there's been this kind of. Again, there's so much, like, weird whitewashing of temmajenkin zu that I see. And there's this perception that, oh, you know, he gets angry and he does stuff, but, like, I just. I want. I think this letter makes it pretty clear he's a very angry person. The things he says to his children and the things he says about women he has been with and things he said about society in general. This man is an angry person. That's not an impulsive reaction. That is who he is as a human being. And I think it gives you the operating base level of Temujin Kenzu. It is unpleasant listening, but if you can stick it out, I think you'll get a pretty good sense of him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's just anger.

[Anya Cain]

He's a core of anger. It's anger. And then if people are doing what he wants them to, he's not angry at them. But if that changes. And let's go. The letter that I read, it has, like, initial. We're using people's initials, unless we've already named them. And I will just say this. It's got. Can you tell us what we learned? What set this off from the commutation hearing? What set off this letter?

[Kevin Greenlee]

What's it off?

[Anya Cain]

So my understanding, and correct me, you know, if I'm garbling this at all, Kevin, but essentially he has. He has two daughters, or he had two daughters. They're half sisters. He's both their fathers. They have different moms, and they connected and wanted to kind of get to know him, but over time, started feeling like he was bad news, I guess, or lying to them. They ended up getting their hands on some trial notes of his at his wife's house. And reading those, they felt like, our father is guilty of the murder. Like, these are not the writings of somebody who is innocent. And they tried to convince his wife, Amiko, to leave him. They felt. They basically felt she was being taken advantage of by a manipulator. And she made apparently negative comments about how this has affected her life to them. So they were kind of like, let us help you get out of this. And he got wind of that and wrote this letter to them, disavowing them. And there was also an instance in there where he actually physically attacked one of the girls in prison when, during a visitation, he broke her finger.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, I Believe this letter really demonstrates not only how Kinzu reacts when women in his life who he should love do something that displeases him, but it also shows the extreme deference which he seems to think is his due. So I'm going to read one paragraph from it now. You can stick around to the end and hear the whole thing if you wish.

[Anya Cain]

I'm reading that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You have sunk to the lowest depths of humanity in trying to destroy those around you for your sick amusement. And so that you might engage in a round of Peyton Place melodramatics. Both of you are, in my estimation, little more than weak, selfish and self absorbed drama Queensland whom have to have the light focused on them. No matter the truth and no matter who you hurt. I am ashamed that we share one drop of the same blood. You have done nothing to deserve the love, respect or admiration that I have foolishly bestowed upon you. What a warped and twisted person you truly are. Neither of you has done anything of merit with your life. And you have the audacity to judge me. Neither of you has the strength to walk one step in my shoes and still you dare to judge me. The selfish judging the giving. The coward judging the brave. How truly pathetic. I gotta say, it is pathetic, but not in the way he thinks. Yeah, this is a pathetic, weak man.

[Anya Cain]

He really. His. His trigger is women doing stuff that he does not like. I. I mean, like if you look at. I mean, we'll get into some of the social media later, but it's. It's bad. He's. He's got some serious anger issues. I. I think his anger is his default setting. And so for when people are acting like, well, he just. Stop making excuses. This is who he is. Stop making excuses. This has been. This has always been who he is. Just because people are learning about that for the first time now does not mean it's changed. There's no change.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not impulsive. It's just a cold, constant burning hate. He does not think that anyone has the right to judge him. And if you ever do anything that displeases him or that he disagrees with, then he responds with bile and hate.

[Anya Cain]

This is not a situation. This is a situation where two young women who were trying to get to know their father ended up based on his own bizarre behavior in prison and based on finding documents in a house, ended up thinking he actually could be guilty and possibly wanting to confront him on that because they wanted to know, is our father a murderer? Okay, I can understand being angry at that. When you read the letter, he's going out of his way to say incredibly hurtful things. He's not just confronting them on what they did. He's telling them they are the worst people in the world. And he's going into extreme detail, slut, shaming, questioning their choices, questioning their, I mean, just everything. It's like you don't just. This is not lashing out in anger. This is, this is basically having the ammo to go after someone about everything in their life, throwing in everything but the kitchen sink and trying to break them. It's the berating. It's, it's off the charts. It's really like that only gives a small encapsulation of what we're dealing with here. And so from people act like that's impulsive, it's really not because he had to sit around and think about all these things and then send it and write down a 10 page later about how much he hates his kids. And, and, and like, again, this is a situation where it's, I don't know, like it there. He, they, they did not put him in prison. His children didn't do anything to him. They, they're not the ones who put him away. They're not the ones who testified against him at this point, although they later, there was some testimony at the commutation hearing. You know, they're just there trying to figure out who their father is. Okay. And I can understand like getting mad, but that's not what this is. This is like an attempt to dismantle somebody from, from their father. I mean, it's just, I don't know, it's, it's, it's chilling.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And the people who say, oh, Temujin Kinzu is this peaceful man, blah, blah, blah, these are people who agree with him, but if you disagree with him, you get the bile and you get the hate. Crystal saw that firsthand. Scott Macklem, unfortunately, saw that firsthand. And now in this letter, we all see it. Is it time to open up our folder of some of the screenshots of some of their social media activities?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, let's do that. I mean, this is, again, it's just, it's, it's bad, but I think it's important to talk about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I agree. It is very important to talk about. Where do you want to begin?

[Anya Cain]

And you're. This is your rodeo.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, I'm going to open up some of the screenshots we have. I should mention that some of these we will read word for word. Others we were only paraphrased and the reason for that is that some of these hateful things contain the full names of some people he's harassing, including and.

[Anya Cain]

Cell phone numbers and cell phone numbers and workplaces.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so if we give the exact phrases, our concern is that Team Kinzu's members will use that information to try to track some of these people down.

[Anya Cain]

Well, I just don't want it' even that. I just don't. I think most people are going to be appalled by this. I just don't want to further invade these people's privacy. They've been through enough. So we're not going to, we're not going to perpetuate that. But we do think it's the reason, the reason we are talking about the social media output from both Temujin and Paula Kenzu is because we feel like it's highly relevant to, first of all, contextualizing the ongoing terrible behavior from that camp towards people who've already been victimized. It also, I think is important to talk about. We talk a lot about bad behavior in true crime, right? I mean, we talk about creators who are doing things that we think are wrong or, you know, people who are getting harassed. And this very much fits into that context. This is unacceptable behavior. And for people who are, you know, again, I, I sympathize and understand where people are coming from, where they're not convinced of Temujin's guilt. They acknowledge that he harmed people, but they just don't feel like he murdered Scott. That's fine, I get that. But you have to know that this is wrong and that we can possibly have conversations about guilt or innocence without resorting to this. And we hope that by exposing this and shedding a light on this, because frankly, no one that I've seen has really talked about it ever. I hope we can at least put a pause on this because these people do not deserve this. And Paula Kenzu and Temujin Kenzo should not be doing this. It's wrong.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It is shameful. It is shameful and it's also frankly, self destructive because one of the things that was brought out, the commutation hearing, the, the board was not impressed with the fact that behind bars Temujin Kinzu was still harassing people. So you would think, oh, I want to make a good impression, I want to change my ways, I'm going to stop harassing people. But he hasn't.

[Anya Cain]

He did. One of the things we're gonna talk about is something he did yesterday. Like literally yesterday. Right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So, like it's June 5th, this happened yesterday. So this is not like. This is not something that has gone away. This is not something that's changed over time. It's something that's ongoing and will continue to go on. And frankly, if people are going to platform individuals like Paula Kenzu, they need to be asking her about this behavior directly or, or the interview's worthless. Because this needs to be some. There needs to be some accountability here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There needs to be accountability. This. This is absolutely shameful.

[Anya Cain]

And, and, and for the, for the groups and Facebook groups that are platforming this and for the, for. For whatever media outlets are platforming her, this needs to be talked about and this needs to be addressed.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. The first thing I want to mention, I'm going to be vague on some of the details here. Crystal's husband is a professional man, and Temujin Kinzu left a review of him on. On a website on Google in which he claimed that this guy was Christo's husband, is using his power to keep Temujin Kinzu imprisoned and says some slut shaming things about her. And it's vile that he would basically leave a fake review because he wants to try to humiliate Crystal and her husband.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. This is not somebody who's in. In an appropriate context, raising questions about Crystal's story. This is somebody who is following her husband to his business's page and leaving a vicious review, talking about how he's part of the conspiracy and talking about how why didn't Crystal break it off with Temujin if he raped her so quickly? Like, it's. It's disgusting, it's vile. And it's the same stalking behavior, and it's also the same harassing people around the intended victim behavior that we frankly saw that he implemented on her and Scott. So, like, par for the course.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, this. You want to read this, Anya? This is something that Paula posted.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, sure. And that other one was from last year. And this one, I think is from her Facebook page or something like that. So this is from Paula Kenzu. This is just unhinged. Quote. Dear Scott Macklem, I was only 11 years old when you were murdered. I never knew you, but I knew your name. I knew you went to Cross Lex, where I later graduated from. I think of you every day now. Who murdered you? Does your own family think of you as much as I do? Why don't they care about the truth? It's so obvious to outsiders that my husband is wrongfully convicted. I wish you could tell me, how can we hold the real murderers Responsible. So many families want closure in these situations. But how can a family allow a clearly wrongfully convicted man spend the rest of his life locked up in a cage over lies? Why don't they want justice for you? I'm so sad for them. I'm so sad for you. For anybody else reading this, remember, there's a $50,000 reward for information that leads to the conviction of the real killer of Scott Macklem. There are still people who want justice for you, even if your own family doesn't. Rest in peace, Scott. But I know you probably aren't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What do you say about that?

[Anya Cain]

What is there to say about that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's appalling.

[Anya Cain]

It's delusional.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The man's family cares about him more than you do. You married his killer.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. You don't care. This is just some bizarre fixation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't. Don't wrap yourself in the good name of Scott, Matthew.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, and when I was alluding to someone who was doing this, I'm talking about Paula Kenzie. This is what, this is her MO. This is what she does. She, she, she drags the name of Scott Macklem out there and acts like she's speaking for him while also trashing him, as we will see in some of these comments. It's disgusting. It's absolutely disgusting. Anybody who is like this, I've never seen, like, I've seen some crazy stuff in some of the high profile cases we've covered. This takes the cake in terms of just the entitlement and the nobody saying anything nobody likes. People do not seem to be, like, pushing back against this or saying, what are you doing? This is treated like this is normal. It's not normal. It's depraved.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Paula also left a message on the Facebook page of a business that Crystal's husband is associated with that it's full of. Her message is full of misinformation about the case and demanding that this person acknowledge her husband's alleged wrongful conviction.

[Anya Cain]

Again, this is the husband of her husband's rape victim.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why are you harassing the owner of a workplace who employs. Why are you doing that?

[Anya Cain]

So it's not. This is not the husband's. This is not Crystal's husband's workplace. This is actually the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is a workplace he's associated with.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my gosh. So also I want to point out this. This is how sick these people are. So she not only posts this, but she also posts this, like, poorly made graphic that she designed, I guess, which has a photo of Krystal and her now husband in it. What's, what purpose does that serve if not to try to shame and identify these people and encourage her, you know, whatever followers she has to do the same or to put them in fear for their lives.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Read this next one.

[Anya Cain]

So this is Paula Kenzu again. Gosh, quote, there will be political and reputational risks to anybody standing in the way of my husband's freedom. I'll be blasting this on LinkedIn tomorrow, tagging all the relevant groups and associations. I d g a f who you are. I'm fighting for my husband's life and freedom.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So this is what these people do. They make threats to try to control you. If you tell the truth, if you say something I don't like, there's going to be a risk to you. And this keeps people silent. We will talk later in the program about how we were threatened by them. This is their modus operandi.

[Anya Cain]

We've heard from people in our inbox, people kind of coming in and saying several people indicating that they don't want to cover this case because they don't want to be threatened by Temujin and Paula. We've also heard from people saying they don't want to even post about it on Facebook groups because they know that these two lurk in a lot of the true crime Facebook groups and they don't want to be added to their list. I mean, when you're creating a situation where people are responding out of fear, you know, and these people aren't concerned that they're going to get yelled at or told they're wrong. They're concerned that they're going to be like doxxed or have Paula Kenzu write their workplaces. I mean, it's these people take it in real life and, and they think they're justified in doing all of that. They think they're in the right here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's indefensible. People who are associated with them really need to call them out on this bizarre behavior. Here. Here's another screenshot where she's doing the same thing, sending one of these bizarre messages to people associated with one of the workplaces of Crystal's husband.

[Anya Cain]

This is online stalking and harassment. I mean, they're following these people around from thing to thing. This is not a situation where we have Crystal or her now husband posting about the case and saying, hey, this guy's guilty, okay? They're just living their lives, doing their jobs. And this woman is following again her husband's rape victim whose father of the child he killed. She's following her around and posting things to try to harm her family.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And remember, their own investigator says Crystal did not lie on the stand. So that means their own investigator believes that Crystal is a rape victim of temperature. Kenzie, why don't you read this next one?

[Anya Cain]

I think this is on Twitter or X or whatever. Dear Scott Macklem, I'm sorry your own family is so concerned over their reputation. They don't want people to know the truth that you died over your drug dealing. And that's why they aren't looking for your real killer. I'm sorry for them. I'm sorry for you. Rest in peace.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Again, that was from Paula. And again, they are smearing the name of Scott Macklem. And we've seen the level of evidence they have for that, which is nil.

[Anya Cain]

I'm just so disgusted with this because, like, there's. Again, I'm trying to like, my brain. The way I work is I try to, like, rationalize things for people or try to, like, make it slightly better for them. All she had to do was just say, I disagree with them. I don't think they really have gotten justice and closure, and I want to help do that. Like, she. But the taunting, the smearing, she loves Scott more than they do. What is wrong with her? I mean, like, what is what. What compels a person to think this is okay? I don't, I don't understand. It's antisocial nonsense. She. She's like, this is unhinged. And nobody in her life, I guess, cares enough about her to take her aside and say, hey, you, you're coming off like a lunatic and you need to stop. I mean, that's what's chilling about it. Because I think if most people started doing this, somebody would take you aside and say, no, no, no, you're going about this the wrong way. Maybe your intentions are coming from an okay place, but this is not it. If those conversations have happened, they've not taken root here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This next one is going to be one we're going to paraphrase. In this one, Paula is writing about. She is. She has some sort of scheme which she believes will help her cause. And she wants people to encourage Crystal and her husband to take part in this scheme. And she gives the phone numbers for both of them. So she is literally giving out Crystal's phone number and encouraging people to call.

[Anya Cain]

Her and Crystal's husband's phone number, it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Looks like, to basically harass them.

[Anya Cain]

Harass them into taking. I mean, can I say this can take taking a Polygraph in order to, you know, I guess expose the lies they told about Temujin. And this is where it, it gets, it gets wild. Because like their own investigator is saying Crystal didn't perjure herself or he has no evidence that Crystal perjured herself. Okay. Which is the same thing here. So she testified to the rape, she testified to the abuse. If you really wanted to stretch and, and say, okay, well, I still think he's innocent, why I still believe her, you could say that all of that is true. But Scotch has had some mysterious enemies that no one else knew about and no one can name. And they're just kind of hovering in the background and they did this and just Temujin got unlucky because he happened to be doing all of these awful things at the time. He's not the real killer. Fine, but then why is it necessary for Paula to do this to Crystal and her family? It's not because, like, or if you have, like again, if you have some evidence that everyone's part of this conspiracy against you, show it. Where does she lie? Where did she lie? But you know, no, that's not what this is about. This is about hurting these people. It's about going after these people in the most vicious privacy violating way possible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's about trying to cause them pain. And these people have suffered more than enough. And again, if you want to platform Paula, you need to ask her about this despicable behavior.

[Anya Cain]

Question one, what the hell is wrong with you? Why would you do this to people? Why would you think this is? Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here'S another message where she names them both and accuses Crystal of perjury, even though, as Anya just mentioned, their own investigator says there's no evidence that Crystal committed perjury. Here's something from Teman. He basically is.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, can I, can we read this one out loud? Because it's. It's wild.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure.

[Anya Cain]

Okay. This is a comment on Facebook. It looks like. Yeah, I'll read for Temujin. There is evidence this guy with so much potential was dealing drugs, end quote. He's talking about Scott Macklem here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Which is funny, depending on who he's talking about. Scott's either, you know, this bum who was a drug dealer, or I think he called him, he called him some derogatory name when he was talking to Crystal that was observed by the police when, you know, before he was arrested. And then in other instances, I think he refers to him in the letter with his daughters as an innocent man. So it's like regardless, you know, Scott's either this poor innocent guy that I had no problem with, I didn't even really know him, I didn't care about him, whatever, or he's a. You know, he's kind of a scumbag. I mean like, it's like. It's like, you know, just depending on what he wants and who he's talking to, it kind of shifts. Anyways, quote this info is confirmed by our private investigator who retired out of the St. Clair County. Our investigator just interviewed a professor from the college who had Scott as a student, who told his instructor the two men had been harassing him for weeks. Temujin lived in the UP months before the murder. So are you suggesting Temujin drove over 400 miles in his broke down beater car multiple times to harass this guy over an ex girlfriend that he moved to the UP to get away from? He moved on with his life. There are more than a dozen witnesses placing him in the UP a few hours before, during and after the murder. John Minnelli was the owner of the taekwondo school where the UP where three witnesses saw him there at noon. That means Temmin had to travel over 400 miles on ice covered roads in three hours. Timeline doesn't fit. So the prosecutor came out with a wild theory. They chartered a plane. But there was zero evidence of that. No flight plan, no pilot, no evidence ties. Yeah, polygraphs. Hundreds of people have reviewed the case and everyone independent of the original prosecution has found he is innocent. End quote. Not true. Also, sorry I kind of glitched out there. Like the screenshot doesn't cover everything. But anyways, quote the prosecution didn't disclose that they interviewed Beth Steer who confirmed she was with Temujin until 3am the day of the murder. Which supported he did not commit the crime and was a clear Brady violation. End quote. So it's a Brady violation when Temujin is with somebody and then doesn't call her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And what if he was really with this woman the night before the murder? He would know that. Yeah, and he would be able to say, hey, he was a great alibi witness.

[Anya Cain]

For me, it's not even that great because it's 3am it's nonsense. Stupid. Anyways, quote Scott was selling drugs and his own father knew about it and tried covering it up. His father was the mayor of Croswell and a supporter of the prosecutor in this case. He was running for Attorney General at the time of this trial. Instead of looking for the real killer and exposing Scott's drug use, they framed Temujin who was a drifter. Nobody. Who did not have a. Who was a drifter. Nobody. Did not have a spotless past. But he's not a murderer. He has thousands of supporters because they look at the facts of the case not feeding into the lies of Crystal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, yeah, that's nonsense. And he also says in there, of course, that thousands of supporters, that his investigator confirms this stuff about Scott, and his investigator did not confirm those things about.

[Anya Cain]

This is lying. Just lying. Like, they're just. I mean, it's just bad people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Gosh, here's the thing where he tweets out Crystal's name in an insulting way.

[Anya Cain]

Yep. Oh, my gosh. This is just where it gets weird. And this is. I think it's important to talk about. He has a problem. Like, I want. When people are acting like he's so impulsive, he's just. No, he's angry. He's angry about everything, guys. Like, look at his freaking. Look at his social media output. He's always screaming about something. This is something that's so random. I mean, like, Like, I just. And again, I. You may. You may agree with him. And not like this celebrity. That's fine. Like, I don't care about this, but, like, I want to show you, this is the kind of person he is where he's just pissed off about everything constantly and can't help himself. This is just how he reacts in life. So somebody tweets out a photo of Rosie o' Donnell and he. He responds with, quote, screaming, obese. Man hating, talentless, has been moron, windbag, perhaps. End quote. What?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just think it's interesting because he'll also use the word man hating to describe another woman he doesn't like. And I think in his mind, man hating is like the worst that you can say about a woman.

[Anya Cain]

And also, it's usually it seems to apply to, like, I don't know, women he hates or women who he thinks hates him. Here's another one. This is. Somebody posted a photo of, I believe, a trans woman, Right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And with a mocking, mocking caption of quote, ladies, what's stopping you from looking like this? Which is supposed to be making fun of this person, which is mean. And Temujin writes back, quote, common sense, decency, integrity, lack of male hormones or man parts, wrong chromosomes, dignity. Shall I continue? End quote. He's a mean person. He. He just likes jumping on people. I mean, like, I'm sorry. Like, there's no. He gets pleasure from attacking people. Like, that's what I see when I see his Social media output. I don't see this, like, peace and love hippie guy that everyone wants you to think he is. He's just mean.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I remember Renee Gobind, who saw him drive away from the murder scene. He saw Temujin Kinson drive away from the murder scene. He remembers that Temujin Kinzie was smiling. And that's probably like, the happiest Temujin Kinzu's ever been.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I would imagine. I mean, he got the guy who stole his property, which was Crystal, and was going to steal his property, which would been Crystal's child that he mistakenly thought was his. So, yeah, I bet that was that. He got to dominate somebody by taking his life away. That's all this guy's about. He's about domination, power, control. Okay? And his rage seeps out at the most random moments. It's not impulsive. It is who he is. People are acting like he's impulsive. You know, I would ask those people, yeah, maybe tell him something he doesn't want to hear and see how he reacts, you know, See how long you can keep that together. This is one quote. Hey, I'm now. This is from Twitter. Hey, I'm now famous for being framed by corrupt Robert Hardy Cleland and for being sold out by Michigan Governor Gutless Gretchen Whitmer and Ag Dirty Dana Nestle. Time to make sure it's exposing them. Let us know. No likes on that one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think it's interesting because the governor and the attorney general are people who have power, in theory, that if they wanted to, they could help him. And even then, he can't keep himself from insulting them and belittling them.

[Anya Cain]

At this point, Gretchen Whitmer is. Who's. The Michigan governor is Temujin Kenzu's best shot?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

She can grant clemency, and that would be a way of him getting out. Right. He's really not. Not gotten anywhere with the courts. But instead of trying to work to establish something there, he slams her constantly because she hasn't done it quickly enough for him. And I think it's because he has a problem with a woman being in charge of his fate. I think he has a real problem with that. And before we get all political, Gretchen Whitmer is a Democrat, and I believe Nestle is also a Democrat. But let me be very, very clear with something. This is a bipartisan effort to keep this guy in prison. Okay? The original prosecution team, that was a Republican. Okay. This is not Republicans versus Democrats. This is people who are professional prosecutors and judges who've looked at this case from both sides, see this guy for what he is. Okay, so this is a, this is a bipartisan situation and Temujin has gotten bipartisan support. I mean, I believe there's been some Michigan Democrats who've come in and said that, you know, they thought he was innocent because I guess they read like the Wikipedia page or whatever. You know, I, I think, I think you know, so I mean like it's, if you don't like Whitmer or whatever, just know that this is not, you know, he says he's a political prisoner in his own mind because he over inflates his own importance in, in life and society and thinks he's like the leader of this amazing new faith and whatnot. So I, I mean this really, truly isn't a politicized crime at all. I just want to be clear about that because everything's so polarized and so political now. I see people be like, well this person I don't like says this. So I'm going to think the opposite in this case. Republicans and Democrats working together have been in lockstep on this and also have been responsible for giving him some support. So I don't really know why he's so political because you'd think it would be benefit him to be bipartisan. But as we see, like he just doesn't care. He just does what he wants.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here's another tweet. Governor Gutless Gretchen, AKA Big Goof and our most corrupt attorney general ever, Dirty Dana, AKA Dana the Drunk. It's all he can do is just insult people. And if people don't see things the way he does, it's because they are corrupt.

[Anya Cain]

Yep. It's not like his job or anything to convince them or anything. It's like, no, they should just immediately gravitate and flock towards him. And if they don't, then they're evil. And that's what we heard from the commutation hearing. That's what he was being criticized for the board like everyone who doesn't do what you want is evil and is part of the corruption. And he's just like, yeah, but that is how he operates.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He referenced the horrendous situation in mdoc which is now completely dominated by a cadre of incompetent, bumbling man hating women. Like Dirty Dana Nestle's AG office and her phony conviction. No Integrity unit.

[Anya Cain]

Why do you need to know that? They're women.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

Why can't they just be incompetent bumblers it's interesting, you know, but I kind of. I don't know. I'm getting the sense from all the rapes and beatings and rhetoric that he doesn't like women that much.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think this next one may be Anya's favorite. I remember when you read this one.

[Anya Cain]

God, I love this one.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This one, you laughed out loud.

[Anya Cain]

I think I just started. CAC. So insane.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's from August of last year.

[Anya Cain]

It's insane. And I want people. If you do listen to the letter, he makes a statement at one point saying that he doesn't claim he has thousands of followers. He's like, trying to couch it as something else. But when you listen, if you do listen to that, if you do get through that, remember this tweet? This was recently. This is, I think, in August. And I. I don't wanna. I wanna be clear. I mean, we don't like. We. We. Kevin and I are people. We have political opinions. But I. I don't really like to get too much into direct politics on the show because I just don't feel like that's what we're doing here. But this is not in any way, shape or form, any statement about either political party. It's just more of. Tells you something about the way Kenzie sees himself. So just keep that in mind. So this is what he tweeted. In 2020, Donald Trump supposedly lost Michigan by less than 13,000 votes. Innocent Temujin Kenzu has way more supporters than that in Michigan. Over a hundred thousand by our last count to include both independents and Democrats who have all sworn to vote for Trump or Stein or Kennedy because of the corruption in Temujin Kenzu case and the refusal of Michigan AG dirty data Nestle Governor Gretchen Gutless Whitmer as well as USAG Merrick Garland to do anything about this travesty of justice. Can Kamala afford to lose all those votes in our swing state? When Trump wins, they'll have only themselves to blame. So. Okay, okay, okay, okay. So. So Temmington is this all powerful leader of A movement of 100,000 strong in Michigan alone. We're not even getting into his outside support. In Michigan alone, to the point where they swung the election, they. They kicked down that blue wall because people are so outraged on his behalf. This is how this guy thinks about himself. He's delusional. He has delusions of grandeur. Okay, like I don't care. Again, I don't care how you feel about Trump. I don't care how you feel about Harris. Forget that. Think about what he's saying. He's saying I have a hundred thousand followers in Michigan who are going to ride or die for me at the polls and they're going to become single issue voters on my behalf. That's insane. Okay, Like, I don't know what to tell you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He.

[Anya Cain]

He has. I mean, am I, am I being too hard here?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, you're not.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think that's what happened. Like, what an insane thing to say. Like, and no one. Again, people look at the. Oh, that's just Temujin. No, this is. He's a, he's a narcissist. Okay? Like, he's a. He, he, he fits all those boxes. And I think when you put that, you know, into your mind about what he's doing and what he's saying and what he's accused of, I think things start to make a lot more sense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here's a tweet where he refers to Michigan's three wicked witches, Whitmer, Nestle and Benson. Again, this guy does not like women.

[Anya Cain]

Not a fan of him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought this was interesting. Again, this touches on politics just a little bit. Maybe you agree with his assessment of this particular politician as someone you don't admire. I was just surprised by the venom and extreme anger that this politician inspired in him. This is vice presidential nominee Tim Walls. You want to read it?

[Anya Cain]

Right? So Tim Walls, it's like a tweet of him and then Temujin Kenzu comes in and says, quote, communist, valor, thief, pathological liar and perverted freak, plain and simple. Ask yourself why they chose this child stealing and mutilating full grown baby killing monster over anyone else. Because he's the one they really want in power. And just to be clear, they is in quotation marks and all caps. Wonder who they are. You know, again, I agree with you. People cannot like Tim Walls. It's not, I mean, sure we, I'm sure we know people who hate Tim Walls. It's just a situation where, like, why is this guy freaking out about everything constantly?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here's one from Paula saying. So we're now hearing a rumor that Scott Macklemore raped a woman and it was her brothers who were chasing him and tracked him down and killed him. I don't want to go more into that. It's just, it's just stupid. And it's more than stupid. It is offensive. But yeah, it is offensive. You drag this, this guy's name through the mud after he was killed by your husband. Let's. If you really care about Scott Macklem, you should just let his family have their peace. If you are convinced that this serial rapist Kinzu is guilty or is innocent, rather, you can. You can fight for his behalf without wrapping yourself in the valor of Scott Macklem's name. And I would. I would hope. Not only would I hope that people, if they interview Mrs. Kinzu or Temujin, if they ask them about these attacks, I would also hope that people would not spread these rumors about Scott. Unless you actually have real solid evidence, which nobody does.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, they make it up. I mean, here, Here. Here's. Go back to that one. Just. I want to say this. And this is again where we earlier talked about how two men were going to him in his workplace. Right? Yeah, we were talking about that. She cites that incident here. She cites that as if it's not her own husband and another dude that. We don't know who that is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was the brothers of the rape victim.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, we know who that is. You are just lying or you don't understand the case to the point where you will just take whatever the defense attorneys tell you or whatever. Whatever Innocence Clinic is working on his behalf to put out this nonsense. It's nonsense. So, like, I just. What she's doing is morally reprehensible, but she's also just plain wrong. Okay? Like, if I go to you and say, kevin, Kevin, Kevin, the sky is gray. The sky is gray. It's cloudy, and we're standing underneath the sky, and it's bright blue without a cloud in the sky, you know? And you. You say, well, Anya, maybe your assumption that rain is coming is wrong because you are incorrect about the basic fact of the way the sky looks, like that is something to raise. It's hard for people to change their minds. We have the anchoring bias. People, you know, hear this sob story about this cool dude who just. Too many chicks were after him, and then they all lied, and then he went to prison, and, oh, man, but he couldn't have flown a plane. And then. And then you look like. I get that. It's. It's. It's compelling. You want to. To buy that. You want to support the wrongfully convicted. That all comes from a very good place. Look at the facts and stop spreading misinformation. If you really think that, because ultimately you're worse, you're just making the discourse worse. And it's also just not putting out accuracies.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And you are injuring the. The people that Scott Macklem love most in this world.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Like, you literally are. And, like, Again, like, I, I'm of the opinion you should be able to. You, it's hard. You're never going to make a. Most of the time you're not going to make a victim's family happy by doing sort of an innocent, wrongful conviction like style thing. And that's okay. You should still be able to do it. But get the facts right. Don't be putting up nonsense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here's something from Temujin where he basically suggests that Crystal, who again, he gives her full name, including her married name, is mentally ill. She, he, he posts.

[Anya Cain]

A meme, toxic women destroy good men too. But we barely talk about that. I kind of feel like we talk about that a lot and you know, and as we should, but also saying that Crystal destroyed him, you know, after what he did to her, you know, she testified against him and no one's been able to point to where she's lying to us. So I don't know what he's talking about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

His own investigator says that she did not commit perjury. Yeah, he, he posted a picture of Michigan Senator Stephanie Chang and he says Chang is alleged to be a member of a group of crooked elected officials, is believed to have taken bribes to abandon their support of. To remain quiet about the actual and complete innocence of 38 years wrongly convicted and incarcerated temperature. So again, a sense of grandeur because he imagines that people are getting huge payoffs to keep quiet about his case.

[Anya Cain]

No, I think they'll do that for free because they think you're guilty, dude, and they think that you killed a guy and they think you're, you know, continue. I think he's, this is one of those people where I'm like, yeah, he would continue to hurt people if he got out. There's no question. There's other people where I'm like, you know, they may never offend again. I think they're guilty, but if they got out, I don't think they're necessarily going to hurt anybody. He's not one of them. He would absolutely. The rage this guy feels, the amount of entitlement, the amount of anger towards people who stood up to him, he would absolutely hurt people. It's not a question of it, it would be a question of when. And, and, and yeah, I mean, again, it's women who are doing him wrong. Women, women, women.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm going to read this paragraph from Temujin Kinzu. The truth in this case is so sad and shameful. It's not even a secret anymore that Scott Macklin was using and dealing Drugs and it's likely why he was killed. Nor that his family knew and they'd rather have a completely innocent pawn of Patsy in prison for a completely manufactured reason. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.

[Anya Cain]

The ridiculous jealous ninja story which has become a joke in every circle. Like when we're Jo. Like when people joke about the ninja thing. Let's just remember that's a story he told the woman he was raping and abusing in order to get her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. There's nothing funny.

[Anya Cain]

There's nothing funny about that. It's not a joke.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not a joke.

[Anya Cain]

It's what he did and it's disgusting. I don't believe he's an actual ninja. I believe he was threatening Crystal and telling her these things to make her not tell anybody because she felt her family would be killed if she stood up to him. Then she did stand up to him and the father of her child was killed. So.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he's basically suggesting here that the family is part of. Is it part of the conspiracy? They know he's innocent. They just want to keep him in jail to protect Scott's reputation. That's offensive nonsense, I don't think. Do people on 10 pim kinzu. Do you guys believe this? Do you believe Scott Mackam's family is in on the conspiracy?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you want to drag his name through the mud with no evidence or.

[Anya Cain]

Incredibly weak quote unquote evidence?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, the last thing is. We're going to talk about it in a minute.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my gosh. What should we save this for after we talk about? Because this comes after our situation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, actually, before we get to our situation, I just wanted to say something else. As we've stressed, there's no evidence that Crystal committed perjury. Their own investigator says that they were. An investigator says no evidence Scott Macklem committed rape or was involved with drugs. Paula Kenzo still though, has repeatedly posted Crystal's full name, the name of the child she had by Scott. She's even given the name of the child that Crystal had by Scott. Why on earth would you do that? She's posted Crystal's phone number. Posting this sort of information about a rape victim and their family is disgusting. It is an open invitation to harass a person who's already endured hell at the hands of this man. It is reprehensible. As we said earlier, we did reach out to Paula Kinzu and her husband Temujin a little over a month ago before we started airing programs and we wanted to not ambush them. So we mentioned that we would be discussing elements of her online activities that troubled us. Basically, what you've just heard here is how Paul Akinzu replied to us. As far as your concerns for my advocacy, I'd simply say that my husband, who is completely innocent of this crime, is strip searched daily. So if he can be violated like that, then as far as I'm concerned, nothing is off limits. Because anything I say or do on social media doesn't compare to the humiliation he is subjected to. End quote. So according to Paula Kinzu, nothing is off limits. Not making up stories about dead men and rape victims, not publicizing the contact information of a rape victim and not whatever worst thing she can think of to do next. Nothing is off limits. And I really want to highlight this point because we think it is something that people not only deserve to know, but they need to know. If you support the Kinzus, then this is the sort of harassing behavior you are supporting. They are bad people.

[Anya Cain]

They're terrible people. I mean, there's no. I, I'm gonna, I again, I try to look at things from as many lenses as possible. I could see making a singular post or two that are. That you regret that, that are wrong and done out of anger. Done out of true, impulsive anger. I can understand that that's a mistake and I can. I'm not gonna necessarily write somebody off because they did that. As long as they see, oh my gosh, that was too far. I apologize. That's not. We have defiance here. We have somebody who. This is what they're gonna do. This is how they see the world. It is a.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nothing is off limits.

[Anya Cain]

Nothing is all off limits. The ends justify all means, zero sum game. I need to destroy these people even though it actively undermines, you know, the case. So like that's who we're dealing with. And, and yeah, they are bad people. That's a bad thing to do. And if people. Again, this was not publicly known before. I think we're the first people to actually talk about this. Although again, it's all happening on social media. You can look it up yourself. This is a situation where if people continue to platform both of them and do not ask about this, then that's not. That's just pr. That's Temujin pr. Like you have to ask about this. You have to get some kind of explanation of what's going on here. And, and frankly, given how easily she tracks in falsehoods and, and just character assassination, maybe, maybe she's not somebody who really should be looked to as a, as a Person who's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You know, worth talking to at all. I. I don't think she is. I think she's just gonna say whatever is going to hurt people. I don't think she's actually concerned about the truth. I don't think she gives a. About Scott Macklemore or his family. I think she just wants to win. And winning for her is her. Her. Her husband that she met while he was incarcerated and has never had to deal with in real life, has never had know, Be alone in their house with. Unlike these other women he's been with. You know, she wants him out. And, you know, all I can say is I think it probably wouldn't end up so well for anybody, including her, if he was let out based on the amount of anger and just vile stuff coming from him. I. I really. I think it's very easy to support this guy when you're doing everything that he wants and making him happy. And I think the second somebody does something that he's not happy with, he lashes out. Not because he's impulsive, but because he thinks he is the only important person in the universe and that people owe him that respect. And when he perceives that he's not getting that, that's unacceptable to him. He's a predator.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And this is what she's supporting. And if she wants to do that, fine. But don't attack these people. Don't attack. Do not attack the woman that this man raped. I just. I can't. I don't. How.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nothing is off limits. Anya.

[Anya Cain]

How are we in this position where it's like, this even has to be said? And also, I want to tell you, I've seen people do advocacy for people they feel are innocent of crimes they've been convicted of. I've seen some bad behavior in that space, but mostly I see just kind of what you'd expect, normal behavior. And those people might sometimes put out narratives or whatever that I totally disagree with and I think are wrong. But I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna besmirch their right to do advocacy, and I'm gonna at least appreciate that they're not coming from it. From a bad place. This is coming from a bad place. Okay? This is. This is. I don't. I. This is sick. And it's also, if anyone wants to say, well, this is what advocacy is. You have to be really hardcore. No, it's not. That's. That's disparaging to anybody who's doing this advocacy in a weird. In a respectful non Non, whatever. This is way, like, let's not besmirch people who do innocence advocacy while we're trying to defend Paula here, because I imagine people will try to defend her. I don't know why, but they will.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Oh, it's just the Kenzoos.

[Anya Cain]

They're just kind of wacky. No, this is unacceptable. They're not toddlers. They're not like poorly behaved toddlers in a store who you can make excuses for. They're adults who are choosing to hurt other people and they deserve to be held accountable. And frankly, this is where I appreciate people who at least, you know, I've heard from people, well, I think he's innocent, but man, this is really bad. And I appreciate people who are willing to condemn this because it's, it's not right, regardless. And as we've said, it doesn't even benefit him. I mean, it makes him look. It makes him look horrible. I mean, it makes him look like the person we believe him to be. But if you believe he's innocent, then you have to just be grinding your teeth here and saying, oh my gosh, why is he doing this? This looks so bad.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Read. Temujin Kinzu replied to our reporting the other day. Do you want to read it?

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Temujin Kenzu is feeling excited. Since the advent of reality tv, there have always been those who appealed only to the worst and the basest instincts. Tragically, in crime podcasting, it's no different. Recently, a program unworthy of name and likened by many as a cheap and pathetic cross between Howard Stern and Jerry Springer has come crawling up from the muck. Admire of slimy journalism lamely attempting to pass themselves off as true crime. They're really just true morons who've now relegated themselves to the trash heap of nobodies by obsessively attacking the undeniable innocence of Temujin Kenzu on the behalf of others. Not with any in depth analysis of the truth and facts of the case, but instead with the most simplistic and cowardly of means. Regurgitation of tired lies, deceit, meaningless character attacks from those with no character, childish allegations and insults and nothing of substance. The exact same illegal and vile techniques used to frame him, showing how they care nothing about justice or injustice. Even more pathetic, though, is their arrogant assertion we doubt even that it's real. This whole thing screams don't. Done at the behest of someone else, possibly for pay or for revenge, that they've deduced a different truth than the army of private investigators, media lawyers, law schools, state and federal judges, prosecutors and U.S. attorneys, city, state and federal law enforcement, and scores of honest journalists and sincere podcasters. They haven't, of course. All they've done is prove their ignorance and willingness to deceive their own fans by doing something stupid, petty, sick, shameless, and disgusting, and in doing so, sealed their outhouse rep in this criminal justice community. But worse than this, by their open dishonesty, deception, slander, libel, and obvious collusion with others for twisted purpose to include trying to hinder the release of an innocent man while caring nothing for real justice and accountability. They've also assured they're going to be sued into virtual nothingness. This. So. So we all. We also then have a comment from Temujin following up on this in insight. Quote, I can already hear them crying and revving up the slander machine. Of course, the cowards never spoke to any of us or Temujin. Typical. End quote. And then there's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, yes.

[Anya Cain]

Some random stuff about Ron Goldman. Who knows?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we, we, we talk about this, I just want to say the first thing that jumps out at me about this boy, is this not a very intelligent man?

[Anya Cain]

No, not at all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In the commutation hearing and elsewhere, sometimes people say, oh, yeah, you're smart. He's not smart.

[Anya Cain]

No, he's not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Some people, you know, they've heard, like, different words and they try to string them together, and maybe it gives the appearance of being smart. This is not a smart man. This is not a smart man. And even if you use big words like the clothing of the smart man, it doesn't fool anybody. If I went to the sporting goods store and bought, like, a football uniform, you wouldn't look at me and say, oh, Kevin's a professional athlete now. It's the same thing. This is not a smart man. Secondly, they're lying because, as we've mentioned, we did reach out to them.

[Anya Cain]

I think we can get into that. Let's look at the substance first.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

To me, a hip reference. Howard Stern and Jerry Springer. But I mean, I guess I'm like, I don't expect people, if we disagree with them, especially in this case, in fairness, I don't expect them to be happy about us or celebrate us or be like, thanks for that. Yeah, we said he's guilty. I, you know, you could understand being mad. But it's one thing to be like, I'm disappointed and they didn't really get my side of it, and they, they made the wrong conclusion. Like, there's a, there's a way to thread that needle and kind of sound like a sane, normal person. And this is not it, obviously. Also, I think it's funny. He always does these lists of, you know, adjectives that are bad, but he also does these lists of, like, the army of private investigators, media, lawyers, law school. Yeah. People that, you know, are either have a reason to look the other way at some of your behavior and some of the inconvenient facts, and then journalists who, you know, don't bring up any of this stuff either. So, like, yeah, you know, you do have people behind you, but it's not really rooted in reality. I think I would have expected something more like, hey, you guys got this, this, and this wrong. And then we would have taken that seriously. I mean, like, again, we're not perfect. If you wanted to say, like, oh, these three things are wrong, or you. You came to the wrong conclusion here. Happy to have that conversation. But this is just. This is just trying to character assassinate us. And it's like, nice try, sir.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think I need to say this, but I will. No one paid us to do this. I'll tell you why I did it. I've been aware of this case for a while, and it's frustrated and sometimes even angered me how little of the truth of this case has been told. So I started toying with the idea of doing some episodes. In September, the Delphi trial happened. And afterwards, I was just exhausted, and I thought, I don't want to do this. It's just going to be a lot of work. And I'm not even sure that too many people out there even care about this case.

[Anya Cain]

They don't. It's not a. I mean, it's not a premier case. I mean, if we're looking at, like, cases where people are following it for, like, you know, getting huge ratings, this is not one of them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is not one. But then what happened? What was the final thing for me? And someone published an article about the case which was full of what I would characterize is really inaccurate character assassination of the prosecutor in this case. The prosecutor in this case, Robert Cleland, did a good job, and he put away a dangerous man. And by doing so, he protected the people of Michigan. He should be celebrated for that. And the idea that people are making up things about him and saying he's a bad actor and all of that, it upset me. And I'd just been through all of this stuff in Delphi where the good people of Delphi, Indiana, were being repeatedly smeared by conspiracy theorists. And I saw how that Affected them. And it just occurred to me, no one else is going to stand up for the people who did. Right. In this case. So I guess it's up to us.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's why I did it. No one paid me.

[Anya Cain]

No one paid us. I mean, also, it's just like, it's the typical, you know, these people. It happened in Delphi, too. It's going to happen in Idaho. Mark my words.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you.

[Anya Cain]

If you're not saying what they agree with, you can't just be wrong. You can't just be someone they disagree with. You have to be part of the conspiracy, the whole conspiracy against them. And it's like, you're not even mature, willing enough to, like, engage with ideas or, like, areas where you guys are putting stuff out that's wrong. By they, I mean the Kenzoos themselves. So, like, how can we take this seriously? Like, we can't. You know, if you. If you want to be unhappy with us and say, you got this wrong or you went too far here, I. Again, we're willing. We are more. If you are a listener and you've ever reached out to us being like, hey, you went too far with this. You got this wrong, I think hopefully you've. You understand that we'll respond and we'll take that seriously. Even if we don't end up agreeing, we're going to take that seriously. This is just. This is just delusions of grandeur and. And bizarre. And it, like, again, it's just like, like, I think. I think this is what I'm reading here. And the thing is, like, you don't understand. Like, Kevin and I, we. We are so burned out on some level in terms of, like, just true crime in general. You can't scare us. Okay. Like, you, like, no, no. Like, we're not intimidated. In the beginning of our podcasting journey, I'm sure if someone sent us something, like, really, like, wild, we'd be like, oh, my gosh, what's going to happen? Oh, my God, they're saying they're going to sue us now. We just don't care. I mean, like, like, we, We. We. We based our opinions on the facts of the case, and we couched those opinions as opinions and we couched the facts as facts. We're fine. But to try to intimidate us by saying that you're going to. We're going to get sued into virtual nothingness. Is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This is how they control people with threats? Do you want to talk about the reaction to this we saw?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, yeah. Like, I I get it. But, like, it's also just like, okay, you know, like, everyone's immediately like, you know, people who I think, you know, I respect, and they. They're coming from a good place, but they immediately go into like, what does this mean for Temujin? Oh, this looks bad for him. Or I mean, I saw some people being like, no, he shouldn't be threatening murder sheet. So I appreciate that. But then there's other people who are like, oh, it looks bad for him. He shouldn't do this because it looks bad. It is bad. And then I saw people being like, well, aha. Sherlock moment. See, he couldn't be the killer of Scott Macklin because he's too impulsive, as this random rant proves.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I was shocked that people on Team Kinzu, at least some of them, they are so wrapped up in this that they see everything through the lens of, is this good for Kinzu, is this bad for Kinzu? And they don't even stop and realize how some of this stuff affects human beings.

[Anya Cain]

And again, like, we don't care because we've been threatened so much. We've gotten death threats, we've gotten legal threats. We've gotten. People say they're, you know, people go after us. People go after our families. People have gone after us personally. This is. This doesn't mean anything for us. But. But the action is still wrong and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People should say so. I. I was surprised that there's people I. I have regard for and. And I was surprised. All they. All they focused on was, is this good for Kinzu, Is this bad for Kinzu?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And keep in mind, this affects more than just us because there are people out there who, as we've said, are interested in commenting on the case or covering the case. And they look at this and say, oh, my God, if I do this, I'm going to be destroyed. I'm going to be sued into oblivion. And it's a way to silence conversation.

[Anya Cain]

It is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So whether you think this loser Temu is innocent or guilty, surely you could have said it is wrong to falsely criticize someone's integrity. It is wrong to threaten to destroy someone.

[Anya Cain]

I think they probably. My guess is they probably think that. But people just jump so quickly into the analysis mode that I think we kind of. And this happens in true crime. I think we forget sometimes. And again, in our case, we don't care. It doesn't matter. For us, we. This is like Tuesday. So, I mean, if someone wants to say, I'm gonna destroy you, it's like yeah, get in line. Like there's a lot of people who want to do that and good luck with that. But, but the thing is, I think what we have to remember is it doesn't matter for us, but it has mattered for people like Crystal. It's mattered for people like Crystal. It's mattered for her family, it's mattered for civil servants who are trying to do their jobs and are suddenly getting bombarded with this nonsense. I think we have to remember that this action is this, this, it's bad, you shouldn't do it, it's threatening and you shouldn't do it to anybody at all. And, and, and this is where it kind of gets really disturbing because when.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We talk about true crime stripping away people's humanity, this is what we are talking about. These things affect real people. And we were able to get more attention to what he said about us because we have a platform. But he's been saying stuff about Crystal and other people for years.

[Anya Cain]

And can we just say like, I mean, hopefully, if you're listening to this, we probably have some hate listeners, but hopefully if you're listening to the show, you're like, you might not agree with us, you might say, I think he's innocent, even if he's a jerk, that's fine. But I would hope you would, I would hope you would feel that we're not part of a conspiracy here. We may have an opinion you disagree with. You may be like, ah, no way. But I would hope you'd at least be like you're coming from a place of sincerity. I feel like people who think he's innocent are coming from a place of sincerity and they're coming from a really good place of like advocacy and wanting justice. And I, even if I, there's some things I disagree with about the rhetoric or whatnot or kind of making excuses for this guy. I still appreciate that, but I would hope that that would be a two way street. I hope that the people who are commenting on this one or don't think that we're part of some sort of paid conspiracy to frame him or whatever he's suggesting here. But you know, like, I, I, I hope, I hope that that is the case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, I, I would hope that over and above what something means for your man Temujin Kinzu, you would be able to say this is wrong. We should not be baselessly questioning people's integrity. We should not be threatening to sue people into oblivion if we don't like what they say.

[Anya Cain]

But if, like, if he said that about us. And he got it wrong. Maybe he's wrong when he's going after other people, too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. When he's going after people like Cleland or Crystal or all these other people. He is. Spoiler alert. He is. He's wrong about everything.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, but you can, you can also say, I think Cleland prosecuted the wrong man, or I think Crystal's testimony was prejudicial. Even if it was true. You can say things like that, and you could still come to the same outcome, that he's innocent, but you don't need to go after innocent people. These people were trying to do their jobs. Okay. Or these people were trying to speak about their truth and their experiences with Temujin. We believe all of them. We think they all got the right outcome. But even if you don't, I think there's a way to kind of discuss some of these things without resorting to painting everyone who is on the, quote, unquote, other side in a really bad light. Because I, I don't, I don't think that's. I don't think that's necessary. And I also don't think that's really helpful towards getting towards the truth, because there's not really anything to support it other than the outcome is something that people don't like. The outcome that, oh, he's convicted and he sent away, and no one's redoing the case, you know, but. But perhaps the outcome is the way it is because that's what the truth is, and that's what the case supports. And, and that's it. Maybe that has to be something that we have to accept, even if you don't agree with it. I think for so long, this has been portrayed as a case where it's like, how could. How could this happen? And it's been portrayed as this sort of, like, unending shame for Michigan, and it's just not. Even if you, Even if you disagree with the outcome, I think you can see where they were coming from, where the jury was coming from, and where the courts are coming from when they're like, none of this rises the level of requiring a new trial. So I, I, I think it's really important to be realistic and to have realistic views of others as people who are capable of making mistakes but aren't necessarily part of some vast conspiracy theory to frame one guy because they don't like his. I don't know. He seems to think he's, like, leading a movement or something, which is also kind of ludicrous. But, you know, Again, like, I, I just don't. I. I think if. I think we need to just be a little more realistic. But I think also, again, like, if you. If you. If you know us, you know, we're not part of some conspiracy. Sad to that we have to say that. But. But at the same time, like, maybe the others aren't too. Because I, He. I don't think he really engaged with our work. I think he was upset that we said he was where he belonged and, you know, we brought out some bad stuff about his past. But if he's like, I've seen things where people like, well, he acknowledges he wasn't the best person, well, then he should go into detail about why that is and not freak out when someone brings it up. If he's saying, yeah, I was raping and beating some women, but I. I didn't kill this guy. Okay, fine, we can have that conversation, but then you can't be mad when people are pointing out that you would have had a motive to kill Scott based on the relationship with Crystal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

So, like, you know, this guy doesn't want conversation. He wants everybody, you know, Paula and him. They want everybody to be in lockstep to support him. And they don't want people. I don't think they really want people to be saying, well, I think he's a. Continues to be a bad and problematic person, but. But is. But is innocent. I think they want people to think.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He'S a terrific, swell guy, which he obviously is not. And. And again, people need to denounce the baseless attack and the threat. Not so much just for us as for other people who might be interested in talking.

[Anya Cain]

You don't need to. I'm gonna say, I don't care about you denouncing it for us. What I love. Okay, we should note this. This post came down. This post was deleted.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, Temujin seems to have some sort of unofficial PR team giving him and Paula advice on how to do things. I don't know why people would want to be in that role, but they are. And so one thing they did was take this post down. And they didn't do it for us because we didn't ask for it. I don't. I don't. I don't give a damn.

[Anya Cain]

Leave it up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This guy, he's not very smart. He's a thug. He's weak and powerless. I don't care. Say what you want about me, if you guys actually have power over him, if you actually have influence over Temujin Kinzu here's what you do. You tell him to go through his Facebook and Twitter feed and delete all of the terrible attacks on Crystal and the Macklems.

[Anya Cain]

Make that go away and apologize for it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Apologize for it. And get, you get to get Temujin and his wife to stop it. If you have influence over this man, do that.

[Anya Cain]

And if he wants to get out his raging anger on anyone, he can post about us anytime. We can be his punching bag. I volunteer, okay? Like, I volunteer us. Go after us. Don't go after all these other people, okay? If you want to freak out and say we're the Howard Stern and Jerry Springer of true crime, fine. It doesn't affect us negatively. We don't care.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I enjoy the 1990s.

[Anya Cain]

I think it's funny. I think his old references are amusing. So I, I, I think, you know, and, and maybe, maybe eventually he'll get around to actually saying what his specific issue is and we can have a productive conversation. So I love that. Have a dialogue. Go after us. Take down all the stuff about Crystal and her, her husband and stop this, Stop this madness. But please, like, don't intervene on our behalf. I appreciate that maybe people felt they were helping us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't think they did. I'll be honest with you. I think people know that. People who listen to our program know we have integrity, and they know that this is a silly attack that makes him look bad. So I think he was advised to take it down for his sake, not for our sake.

[Anya Cain]

Because here's what's the sick thing about it. This is what was really upsetting. We saw this, and we were like, okay, I guess we were waiting for this. Also, I just want to say people saying, like, oh, he couldn't have done it. He was too impulsive. He waited a while. I mean, we've been covering this for a minute. He didn't immediately come out swinging. I will also say that I don't think you can say some things just an impulsive. If I suddenly started posting randomly, getting into a beef with, with, I don't know, some random person, that, that might be impulsive. This is part of the pattern. I mean, we've, we've described how he talks about people online. This is not impulsive. This is just how he talks about people online. This is how he taught. This sounds very similar to the letter he sent to his daughters in some way, the kind of, just the, the jargon and the kind of, the way he writes about people. I don't think it's impulsive when it's your personality when it's your underlining way of dealing with people. That's not impulsive. That's just who he is as a man. So. But let's talk about this for another second. The thing that upset us was what we saw this, and then it came down. We're like, okay, whatever. Immediately after this came down, he posted a Facebook story, once again bashing Crystal. So it's like, maybe he was told, don't go after the murder sheet. That's a battle you're not going to win. But then he just goes back to the person he's been using as a punching bag online for years, and that's horrible. So he feels like maybe he can't get away with going after us, but maybe he feels like no one's gonna challenge him when it comes to her. And that's not right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not right. It's been close to 40 years. People need to start standing up for Crystal.

[Anya Cain]

I really think it's true. And I also don't think it benefits the cause of his innocence by trying to destroy this woman. What she said about him was damaging, don't get me wrong. But like that even. But her. But it's also supported by what other.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Women went through, and it's also their own. Investigator Herb Wellser says there's no evidence he committed perjury. Did you want to talk about our efforts to contact and talk to the Kinsers?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, this is one. This was the one thing that kind of gave me a little bit of like, are you kidding me? From his. Is from his thing. This is just from a comment. They put, quote, of course the cowards never spoke to any of us or Temujin. Typical. So they're not quite. They're not quite saying we never reached out to them there. But that seems to be the implication, you know, because, like, what the implication is there. Hey, we would have talked to you, but of course you didn't want to. We reached out for comment before we started any of this. We reached out on Facebook. We reached out to both Temajinkenzu and his wife Paula, because we viewed them as kind of the. The people that were the most important to talk to. And we said, okay, I don't believe in ambushing people. I mean, I guess there would be certain instances where you, you know, gotta hit someone with a hard question or whatever. But. But I mean, at this point, we'd been. We'd read the transcripts, and we were fairly convinced that he was guilty. And so it didn't feel right. This guy's only been basically getting coddling interviews for years. And, and so is Paula. So it, it didn't feel like a good situation to basically be like, come on our show and then just like, kind of, you know, interrogate them. And so we wanted to give them a choice. So we said something to the effect of, we've, we've read this, and we're, we think you are guilty, but we want to get your side of it, and we want to provide our platform for you to do that, because that is fair. We're not, you know, I mean, and if, you know, our show, you know, the interviews we do, we're not going to debate people. We're not going to be like, we might ask some hard questions, but we're not going to be like, no, no, you're wrong. Shut up. Like, it's going to be respectful. We're going to have you to say your side of it, and you're going to get to say your side of it, whatever. So we re we reach out to them. Temujin never responds. Paula responds and is complaining and also says basically something effective. Well, you can write me questions and I might consider answering some of them. No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

No, we declined to do that because, no, we dictate the terms of the interview, not the subject.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And obviously that was an attempt just to try to figure out what we knew.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And also to me, Paula is not just acting as representative temmage in this situation. Paula is a subject in and of her own actions in this case and her bizarre harassment of her husband's victims.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So, you know, if you are a victim or a victim family member or it's a sensitive thing like that.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sometimes we will work with you and give you information in advance.

[Anya Cain]

We might say, okay, these are some topics we want to cover. And you can feel empowered to say no if you don't want to talk.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But Paula Kinzu has done nothing to deserve that kind of courtesy.

[Anya Cain]

Paula Kenzie's not a victim.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She's a victimizer.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So she, she wasn't gonna get that kind of courtesy from us because she didn't deserve it. She is, as we indicated, a bad person. And so we declined and said, okay, fine. So that's where we thought it was left.

[Anya Cain]

And listen, I, I, I'm not, I don't like it in true crime when people say, oh, these people didn't talk to me. Like, I, I get it. Like, I don't know. They've never had a difficult interview in their Lives. I get it. I, I mean, I'm not going to necessarily criticize them for saying no because, like, I, you know, I can imagine a lot of people would. And, you know, I, you got to respect that. They have no obligation to talk to us. They do not have the, they do not have the right, though, to come in here and said, of course we never spoke to. Yeah, because we didn't get a response from Timogen and because Paula tried to, you know, pull this nonsense about us writing down all the questions for her, which is ironic because I'm pretty sure I've seen her in some of her social media rants talking about how. How it's ridiculous and suspicious that all these prosecutors won't do interviews about the case. Well, you won't either. Unless it's like completely. People who are in lockstep and hang on to every word you say. We're not in that group. Again, I understand that, but then to imply that we did something inappropriate by not getting them to talk to us is, I don't know, not true. It seems like a bad faith attempt to smear us is somehow doing this inappropriately, which is, again, not appreciated and inaccurate. And it's also just unserious because, I mean, like, we have this, we. We have the Facebook messages. Like, what do you think is gonna. Like, like, I don't know, it's just dumb. These are people who are not used to being questioned at all. At all. So they think they can just say whatever and people will just take it seriously. But we're not in that group. And I think that's. That's kind of an existential threat to them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

But again, they could just improve their behavior and stop doing some of this stuff. And I would, I would love to see that because it's, it's not right and people should be absolutely condemning it. Even if you think he's innocent, there's no reason to be doing what they are doing to Crystal and her family or to even have some of the commentary about the Macklems. It's just hurtful and inappropriate. So recently there is a, There is a kind of a random wrinkle to this. We did see that Jason Usury, who's another podcaster, has a podcast on Temujin Kenzu, kind of taking more of the innocence tack. We saw that he, you know, he takes a very strong view on believing he's innocent, which is fine. As we've said, he said he, he was the one who told the Kenzie's to decline our request for interview and we were surprised. So we did ask him like, hey, what happened with that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he sent us back an email and he said, I would ask if you choose to quote this, you quote in full. So I'll do so. I'll read it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Kevin and Anya, thanks for your follow up on my comment on social media. Here's the context in which my actions and statement was made. On Easter Monday, you reached out to tell me you were doing a podcast on the Scott Macklin murder and subsequent conviction of Temujin Kinzu. Your email and my response, bold and italicized below. Later that day, I received a call from Paula Kinzu stating that she had received an email from you with a similar message and that you plan to approach the case from the guilty angle. She also stated that you would be calling out Temujin and his advocates to include Paula. At that time, she expressed reservations about going on your show. I told her if she had reservations that she should not go on the show, but if there was commentary that she wanted to respond to, she should reach out to you directly. I feel responsible for telling her not to go on your show based on this conversation. As I have always stated, I think people should do whatever they feel led to do and make decisions on their own. And I apologize if my statement on Facebook was confusing. On reflection, I do realize that conversation may have influenced her decision, and I apologize to you and her if that conversation keeps us further from the truth. Additionally, I have not hidden nor minced words about my position thus far in this case, where I believe the wrong man, Tempest, is in prison for the murder of Scott Macklem. I recognize we disagree on this point. Paula and I do speak regularly and I have told Temujin and Paula in our few conversations that if I can prove you killed Scott, I will say it without reservation on my podcast. However, after more than a year of combing through everything, no evidence proves that to me. If you have other evidence that may prove Temujin's guilt in the murder of Scott Macklem, I am always willing to analyze critically so we get as close as possible to the truth. For Scottish not. I think we can all agree that's the conclusion of the email.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. And we very much appreciate Jason reaching out and kind of explaining that we were. We were for like, what?

[Kevin Greenlee]

But I. I think we can all agree that if we are sincerely interested in the truth, the thing to do is not to discourage conversation, but rather encourage it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And we think it's okay for people to disagree on this case. I just want to make. We have a very strong opinion and, and, and we know other people do too, and that's all. Okay. I think it's important that we're all just in lockstep for the truth. And I do think that I would hope that people who are in contact with Paula, obviously, we're not gonna be. That doesn't seem like she's gonna.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we, we gave her and Temujin an opportunity which they chose not to take advantage of.

[Anya Cain]

But I think people who are. They have a great opportunity right now to do some good, to do some really good things. And I think it's something, if I could put it in kind of partisan terms, I think it's something that probably benefits Temujin's position too. So it's not just a situation where we're saying, you know, I, I think if you can get these people to knock off their terrible behavior online, it's going to look better for him and it's going to benefit the lives of people who don't deserve what they're going through. So I really hope that this is something where we can actually all work together as a community. Who's talking about this case, regardless of how we feel about the innocence or guilt of Tim and Jenkinsu, and we can actually make a positive change. I'm really hopeful about that. I hope that we can do that because, I mean, we're the ones pointing out the problem, but I think people who might be closer to the innocence camp might be the ones who are helping fix the problem. And I think that would be a really wonderful thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The problem in this context is Temujin Kinzu and his wife's harassment of rape victims.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm gonna say this, I was not being facetious earlier. If he needs something to rage at, rage at us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because we don't care.

[Anya Cain]

We don't care. We're the perfect target. We don't care. It doesn't hurt us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we know that he is not very bright and kind of powerless and has. I'll tell you one thing, one of the biggest fight.

[Anya Cain]

Us don't fight.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One of the biggest mysteries to me in this case, I'm very honest here. One thing that I've never figured out is people talk about this man being charismatic, and obviously he is because a number of people have fallen under his spell. He seems to want to have. He's the leader of the Cathal people or whatever the hell he's. I don't get it. He doesn't seem intelligent to me. He doesn't seem to have any charisma. Whatever he's got, I'm totally immune to it. And I think I see him as he is. He's a serial rapist and he is a murderer, and he's not very smart, and he doesn't really have much power.

[Anya Cain]

I think he has an interesting story if you only take the kind of defense positions on it. And it sounds like, how could a guy be flying in a plane and hundreds of miles and all this stuff? And so people get invested in that, and I understand that. And people are motivated. They don't want an injustice to happen. So, I mean, that's good. It's just, I think he takes advantage of that and then he kind of sucks people in, and then, you know, it's. That's the way it is. I, I think he's. I, I, I think also I think he, for whatever reason, has been able to successfully hide the extent of his really violent behavior over time. And I think that that is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I, I think, I think he is mischaracterized his alibi. I, I think he did some witness tampering, alibi shopping. I think there's a strong case for his guilt.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think if, if we found out that, like, Richard Allen was calling people and saying, hey, you saw me on February 13, 2017. Right. We'd all be like, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So there's a lot of things about the strength of the case against him that he and Team Kinzu have not shared with us. And I really and truly felt it was. Since we have that information, it was our responsibility to share it with you because no one else was.

[Anya Cain]

I think, I think, though, again, I think this is a situation where people can come together and maybe get some of the bad behavior to stop, because ultimately that's the most important thing, that the bad behavior stops and that people are not harassed anymore. It's not necessary, and it's not good. And I think if we can all team up to do that, then we've done a good job as a true crime community.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'll say my prediction, which is that Temujin Kinzu is never going to again breathe a breath of free air. And I believe he's going to die behind bars, as he should. And I believe that the people who have worked so hard over the years to keep him incarcerated, I believe they are heroes. And I believe that through their efforts, fewer women have been raped and fewer people have been killed. This guy has done nothing but cause misery wherever he goes. And even from behind bars, he's causing Misery and harassment. Digitally, he is a terrible human being. He will die in prison.

[Anya Cain]

He should. And again, I, I concur with what you're saying.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As we mentioned the top of the show, boy did we go long. But as we mentioned, at the top of the show, we will do a question and answer episodes. Email us your questions and if you have any, and we'll do that. And then we're obviously not going to be intimidated away from covering this case, but we're not going to cover it every week. But we, we will keep an eye on it. And if by any chance we've been told that a lot of people in Michigan are listening to the show and are pleased that the truth is finally coming out, if you're one of these people and you have interesting information about the case that you think would be helpful to us, please contact us. We can keep you anonymous and we can even talk off the record.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we will. We protect our sources. And again, you know, again, we can be the punching bag here. We don't care.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we're going to do our goodbye music. But if you want to, you can stick around and listen to Anya rant by. By Anya Ranting as she reads this awful letter from Tembin Kinsey.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think it'll give you a sense like this isn't new. And this is how he talks to people. And again, it's. It's to his two daughters who.

[Kevin Greenlee]

2002, I believe. Right, right.

[Anya Cain]

They're half sisters. They don't have the same mom. And he also references another woman who he. Michelle, who he also had a child with. And so I pretty much took out the, like, the names of people except for like, Michelle and Amiko, who is Temujin's wife. And I, I just think it kind of, it tells you something about him. I think everyone's understanding that people can get mad and anger is not necessarily a bad emotion. It's just that, like, the, the, the bile that he spews at these two young women who, you know, he claims to have loved at one time is pretty shocking even. You know, it just doesn't seem like. It doesn't seem impulsive. It seems calculated to hurt as much as possible. So I think that's important. But anyways, Kevin, I just want to say I was really impressed with all the research you did on this case. Like, you kind of were the one spearheading this and then you'd kind of. I'd. I'd read everything afterwards and be like, whoa. So just thank you for doing that and again, we like to keep covering it. If you have any information murder sheet gmail.com and you know, I think that's kind of where we are, except for the questions and answers episode that we can kind of get into. But you know, please do send us questions if you have them or if you heard a fact and are like, is this true or is that true? We can, we will, we will cite sources. I mean, we will, we will give you the information as much as we can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And now is, is he listening to the end music play? Like grab something to drink, alcoholic or non alcoholic and then hold onto your hat.

[Anya Cain]

It's a bad letter. All right, thanks everyone.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenleaf, who composed the music for the Murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. I'm going to now read this letter from Temujin Kenzu to his two daughters. These are two half sisters. To protect their privacy, we'll be referring to them just by their first initial. And we'll also probably be referring to other people referenced in this letter by their first initials. This letter was dated April 17, 2002, so I will be reading this entire thing. Feel free to skip. It's pretty. It's a lot. K and L. Since my sentiments towards both of you are identical at this time, and since you have childishly joined in this destructive cabal together for whatever twisted purposes I'm writing you together. Also tonight, I was both sickened and disgusted with you. I have rarely seen such selfish, immature behavior in my 16 years of incarceration. How much more shameful it was that it came from my Own children knowing the future consequences of your actions. Though still you made your choices if they can't even be called that. K, you are even more to blame for following Elle's inane lead. You sat there with me on a visit and called Ki every kind of low life and whore behind my back. You insulted and degraded me like cowardly gossip mongers. And to Ki, you insulted and degraded Emiko, though she has been nothing but kind to you. You implied to Emiko that you were going to get her away from me, though you know absolutely nothing about my relationship with her, nor is it any of your business. You have sunk to the lowest depths of humanity in trying to destroy those around you for your sick amusement. And so that you might engage in a round of patent place melodramatic. Both of you are, in my estimation, little more than weak, selfish and self absorbed drama queens. You have to have the light focused on them, no matter the truth and no matter who you hurt. I'm ashamed that we share one drop of the same blood. L. As much as it angers you, you are little more than a clone of your mother. You are a hypocrite at best. You have done nothing to deserve the love, respect or admiration that I foolishly bestowed upon you. And as I told each of you, only you could destroy my love for you. You have both done that with a professional's touch. K. You are little more than a whiner. A 20 year old whiner with a baby no less, but a whiner still. You refuse to grow up, to be responsible, to admit your weaknesses and to address them. You live in a fantasy world world where your father will love you without you giving any love back. You have not written more than once in eight weeks. And like Elle, l lied time and time again about it without once consulting me. You joined forces with Elle to engage in a vile smear campaign against those who dared to care about you. What a warped and twisted person you truly are. Neither of you has done anything of merit with your life, and you have the audacity to judge me. Neither of you has the strength to walk one step in my shoes, and still you dare to judge me. The selfish judging the giving. The coward judging the brave. How truly pathetic. Yes, Elle, you are the product of the MTV generation. No matter what you say in protest. You have the haircut, the nose stud, the clothing, the attitude, the complete indifference and lack of compassion. The same ignorance and refusal to learn or to even care about learning. Better yet, about others. You on your. What? Fourth Boyfriend? Since I'VE known you and you come to see me actually to berate me and others. Wearing a sacrilegious pendant while claiming to believe in God because some new goon gave it to you. And knowing my beliefs about such ridiculous and childish superstitions, you refuse to greet me properly, knowing my feelings about this. This as did uk. You lie about Amiko and claim she said things she never said and the things she did say and trust you twist and pervert. And on top of this. And you top this off by springing this idea whereby you and your equally vapid girlfriend plan to run off to California to be interior designers. Why would I ever respect a person like you? A person who wants to spend their life modeling living rooms and bathrooms for the wealthy so they can impress their stuck up, snotty and empty friends who right now wouldn't give a dime to save your life. A career in which you pander to materialism, vanity, self aggrandizement and selfish egotistic pride. While meantime millions of children are starving. Millions sit in prison cells innocent of the crime for which they are placed there. Millions live under oppression and tyranny. But Elle will be fine in LA designing rec rooms for the hollow and the self absorbed. I can hear it now. Why can't you accept me for me? Who are you to judge me? The battle cries of the mindless MTV drones. Yes, I'm very impressed, K. You know nothing about Elle and if you did, you would probably run. And L, K is the same girl the snots at your school like you make fun of. Each of you is diet obsessed. K, you're killing yourself with gluttony and L you sicken yourself with starvation because you're both too empty and weak to simply grow up and admit your failings. And here I am, the big bad wolf who tried to teach you something beneficial that didn't fit into your sad and self consumed world. I was wrong about one thing. Both of you belong with Michelle. You're both just like her. And I imagine if you want to sink to the depths of low, you could all sit around and lie about me and have pathetic little inane gab sessions. The fact is, you made your choices, Michelle made her choices and I made my choices. But unlike the three of you, I admitted my mistakes and I worked to make myself a better man. Why would I care if pathetic? Nobody sat gathered with lives so meaningless that they have nothing better to do than degrade me, despise me or hate me. None of you will ever be as strong or care about others as much as I do. And when you lot, you're lost and alone, I will still have the support and the friendship of those who I work to aid, to uplift, to care about and to provide for in whatever way possible. Neither you, or Michelle, for that matter, have ever learned anything from what happened to me. Whereas I acknowledged long ago that my errors played a great part in my coming to this place. The three of you still treat people like garbage and think you will always be immune from the penalty for this senseless self absorption. I began our visit by telling you for 40 minutes that I love you, Elle. And that I wanted to protect you as much as I could from people like Michelle. A person so evil that to this day she finds her existence in attacking me While pretending that she never thinks about me at all. Blaming me for all of her problems and weaknesses and selfishness. And permitting a killer to roam free. A murderer whom gunned down an innocent young man. And she could care less. She never cared once that both of you grew up without your father. And had I been there, you never would have become what you are now, which to me is detestable. She is vile enough, though, to find joy in your petty and unwarranted anger with me. This is the same sick game she played with F. Michelle destroys others and pretends to be a victim herself. There are many men like this in prison, and they are indeed often quite convincing. I am no victim of others, although I am in here at the hands of corrupt men. I am a political prisoner, though, and that was the only thing I expected you to care about. But no, you're both too hollow and empty for that. Instead, you saw only your perverted agenda. A chance to play damsel in distress. A favorite game of young women who are too cowardly and weak to grow up up and face the world and refrain from ruining those around them. I gave Michelle a thousand chances. But never again will I be so foolish as to trust a person that I know is so cold and dead inside. I knew long ago when I looked in Michelle's eyes that she was as alive as the grave. And that every word from her mouth was a lie, no matter how much false emotion she tried to cover it up with. I see now that deadness in each of you. You. And again, I'm ashamed. I'm ashamed that you chose this over life and love, K. Because I know that your mother is not the person you tried to make her out to be. Whatever mistakes she made in her life. Nor do you have any right to judge her considering the way you are living your own life. And I am ashamed of for you, Elle. Because you should have learned the lesson of your mother without becoming her. Where is there a difference in either of you? You would abandon your children as you abandoned your father. Like your mother, you stomp and whine and cry and scream and throw things and prove what a child you still are and always will be. K. My shame is magnified in that you are a mother and yet have the maturity of a nine year old. This is just part of the ammunition that R and S had ready to bring into court against you. Just as in my own case, those corrupt politicians were able to use my failures against me, R and S have an arsenal to use against you. And just like those politicians, some of it would have been true and some of it would have been lies. Regardless, you faced what I faced. I can only begin to imagine how many people could come forward in a courtroom to give negative testimony about Elle. I for one could give reams. And I barely know her. This letter is testimony to what I've seen in both of you. So you can imagine how it would sound in a trial for which you were wrongly accused. But neither of you care about that or anything else of substance for that matter. Because it doesn't fit into your worldview. Your worldview consists of a time and place in which you can lie, hurt others, break your word, live for yourself and yourself only, and trample others, be they Ki, Amiko, or your own father. Lies that range from Elle telling me that she had an eight octave singing range which is humanly impossible. And instead of ignoring this, why don't you look this up? K to K's lie about her dream of finding her father, only to enter his life and then do all that she can to destroy it. I've seen in you both self righteous hypocrites who would listen to the negative tales of people far lower than I have ever been. But not to your own father's words of love and caring or those of the woman who has known him for 11 years. Instead of being responsible, mature and concerned members of a family, you both chose to pretend you were victims. As if the rotten things you have done were not your fault. It's amazing to me that I am responsible not only for my mistakes, but also for the things others say about me. And now you two, knowing nothing about me whatsoever, have added to the list of simpletons. But apparently neither of you are responsible for the rotten things you have done. You attacked me. To Amiko. S and R You attacked Emiko to me and Ki. You attack Ki to me and Amiko, and you gain nothing more from this than the contempt of everyone involved. I still love and am married to Amiko, and neither of you will ever change that. I still love Ki and have great respect for her and all that she has done and is trying to do. No matter what sick labels you put on it or how much you accuse her of having an agenda. I still love and respect S, R and even M and L. Because unlike you two, they have done nothing to deserve less. Had either of you conducted yourself like women and not shrews, I would have done the same for you. And I would have always been there for you, no matter what. Who are either of you to place yourselves over anyone else, or to judge them so harshly? What have either of you ever done with your lives besides blaming your mothers and now myself and Amico and the rest of the world for your pettiness and your self absorption? What have you accomplished then? Anyone should care what either of you think. Especially when we see the types of people that you are. I have files, folders full of testimonials from people that I have helped, lives I've been able to change, Drug addictions conquered, families healed. Why then should I care one iota for the condemnation of two backstabbing, rotten brats such as yourself who have no regard for their father? A father who loved them from the start, who gave to them, and who dedicated his life to caring for them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Them.

[Anya Cain]

And who invited them into his family and his home and his heart? Each of you blames others for your misconduct, but when was that ever a fair justification for being so cruel and petty? I spent my entire youth abused as a runaway, as a ward of the court, beaten sometimes black and blue in violent and loveless foster homes. And you care about none of that. I made my mistakes and I paid the price for them. Neither of you is fit to be my judge for one moment, nor did I ever do anything to hurt either of you. I am filled with contempt and loathing that you feel you have the right to doubt or judge me while demanding that I accept you, no matter what you do or have done or whom you do it to. Another example of your pettiness, your cruelty, and your attempts to manipulate people for your own vicious purposes. You each had the temerity and thus the stupidity to imply that I might be guilty of this crime. As if you were somehow smarter than the police, including state troopers and homicide specialists, polygraphers, legal experts, lawyers, private investigators, attorney generals, and even my own trial lawyer whom was a former judge and prosecutor. All of who know that I am innocent. And all of whom are wise enough to know the difference in garbage and corruption versus evidence of gang guilt. You wanted me to be guilty just to justify all the sick things that you were saying and doing. I cannot imagine how I ever trusted either of you for one moment. On top of this, you tried to ruin my marriage. A marriage based on 11 years of love, trust and patience and faith in one another. Again, for your own sick amusement. Did you think Amiko has not carried thousands of burdens because of her love for me? You know nothing about my relationship with her. And yet you were foolish enough to tell my own stepchildren your sick, sick plans and plottings. You have done nothing more than destroy the love that we both gave you so willingly. And betrayed the trust of those who loved you for all your shortcomings. Perhaps you're simply jealous. K. You sleep with a man you have no respect for who tried to destroy you and l you jump from boyfriend to boyfriend. I just learned the number is much higher than I originally thought.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thought?

[Anya Cain]

And I can't find one. And can't find one to stay with you once he sees the terrible person that you are. That's when you're not thrashing their ears. Oh, I forgot. That makes you a multiple felon with a worse record than mine. Using your logic, I could should never have cared about you in the first place. How proud you must both be. College law professors have read every scrap of paper on my case and judged me innocent and the victim of a cruel cover up. And you two have it all figured out. Having received nothing more than insults from empty nobodies and having read a few documents that you didn't even understand. I believe you both are the same geniuses that thought I confessed to the crime. Indeed. You must be proud. Yes, you're both shining examples of the MTV generation programmed ignorant and uncaring of what's going on outside your little self centered world. Which is exactly why the world is the way it is. Which is exactly why I've lost 15 years of my life in prison. And exactly why you each grew up without your father only to enter his life and work to ruin it in the life of those who have been good enough to care about me and to teach me to care again. K. You turned for no reason at all but Elle's divisiveness. This is what Elle does. She drives away all those whom are stupid enough to care about her. It's What Michelle did to me years ago and why I never cared about her again after that. I defended Ki while you viciously attacked her. And Elle repeated every lie from your mouth as if she knew it to be true. So that you could both be victims together. So that you could feel sorry for yourselves and each other and not have to face the awful people that you have become. I've seen the worst of the worst in here, but rarely have I seen manipulating liars of your caliber. In L, I saw the loud, the crass, the arrogant and the obnoxious. And in K, the self pitying, weak follower, mindless of whom leads her to her own suffering and who she hurts along the way. How many times has your mother bailed you out? K. And yet you could not wait to slander her to me and to Elle and to Amiko. This is what I, and many others have seen in both of you. Elle, you'll rant about this letter, but I suppose that at this point I could really care less. That's what you do, K. You'll whine about it, but that's what you do. You'll run to your friends who don't know me either, and they'll support you. Not because you're honest or trustworthy, but because they know you and for no other reason, since they can't possibly know all the foul things you have done recently. Again, the views of those mean nothing to me since they're not strong enough or aware enough to actually try to learn the truth. Michelle will love both of you. She'll curse me and look for adult brain supporters because that's what she does. Had she ever changed, I would not have cared about the past. For we all have our errors and life failings to confront. Perhaps one day, one or both of you will realize the terrible mistake you have made. Perhaps Michelle will do the same. But for a truth, I sincerely doubt it. Such self examination takes great strength and resolve. Because none of you will ever grow up and become true women. You can all spend your lives miserable and hollow and pour your energy into hating and blaming me for every rotten, selfish, vapid, immature thing that you do. I could care less about that too. There are still millions of good people in this world and millions of children that need a loving father. With all that, even Michelle did. Had I ever seen a true change in her, I would have honored my promise and my bond. And I would have been there for her too. But she cannot face what she is, is what she has become. It's too easy for her to simply lie to herself and tell herself what a good person she is. I imagine through all of this, you have each been doing the same. I cannot deny that this letter is cathartic to me. For someone had to rear up their heads and tell you what kind of people you really are. It means nothing to me if such shallow, empty and self absorbed people such as yourself find these words objectionable. We have a saying in our faith. It is good indeed to be hated by evil men parentheses women. You have hurt Ki, who did nothing to either of you. You broke Emiko's heart time and again, but she wasn't strong enough to stand up to you for fear that I would lose you both. And you knew this. You have brought me enormous shame with your actions both in and out of this place. You transformed my pride in being a father to sadness and regret in a matter of days. This world is the way it is because of people like each of you. I endured the agony of my youth and made my mistakes because of people like you. Neither of you is wise enough or responsible enough to understand the terrible things that you have done. Or responsible enough to care. Better yet mature enough to be honest enough to change. Those in power laugh at sheep like you. Especially you, El the pink crowd who came to visit me yet again. Poor hygiene. As always, with more club stamps on your unwashed hands. You have chosen your own life, if you can call it that. Neither I or your mother taught you to be a brain dead club hopper. You belong with all the idiotic ecstasy users at the raves, dancing to the mind numbing, thoughtless computer beats. Wasting your youth and your life in self gratification. Definitely not part of a family. K, you're barely better for choosing such a person for your life. Tour guide and hero. The saddest part is that if you two had not met, none of this would have happened. You each fuel the fire of ignorance in the other one now. I'm simply sorry that I wasted my time, money, efforts and heartache on either of you. You lost a family and my friends, and you gained each other. For that matter, you deserve each other. Unlike either of you, I do not bemoan my fate and vent my anger against others responsible for what happened to me. I didn't waste my youth like you two. Like unthinking zombies, whining, ranging, sniveling and cursing others. I educated myself. I read until my eyes were dry and I trained until I sweated blood. And for 16 years, I served the needs of others in this wretched place. Days I worked 10 to 15 hours a day to help to educate and redeem others when the rest of the world abandoned them and told them they were nothing. Much like you did to me no matter how I tried. I reject your hollow and self righteous judgments, your culture of me, your attitude and your vindictiveness. I dedicated the rest of my life to fighting the good fight. So I see no reason to waste one mere ounce of energy battling the likes of either of you to prove who I am. I do not have to prov prove anything to you. You never even gave me a chance. You are my daughters in blood alone but in nothing else. Because you're not likely to ever change. That's all you will ever be. I want nothing from you and no more of you. I once told you that I was very careful who my associated with because my associations while free brought me to this place. Living by this wise rule I could never consider for a moment associating with backstabbing, traitorous liars and manipulators such as you. Lnk I am not the one who did all of this. How many lies did you tell Amiko alone? I never said I had thousands of followers worldwide. I did say there were a thousand Cathol in prison. I never said Amiko never did anything on my case or any of the other rotten lies you told her, foolishly thinking that she would believe you and abandon me as if she doesn't know me better than either of you ever could. You lied and told ki. You said nothing bad about her, but you called her a sick and pretended that Carrie lived in some sexual freak show just to shock me into rejecting her too. Except for my case, I never intended to see Michelle again. Although she lives to tell ridiculous stories about how I'm going to kill her, which she only says because she knows all the rotten things that she has done to me. But even she knows I'm innocent. Knowing the kind of person she is, not to mention what everyone who knows what she did thinks of her. I still tried to protect and defend her for years and took the blame for every rotten thing she ever did to me. Even when she refused to help with the documentary, when she refused to let Bill Proctor interview her for my TV shows. I was ashamed that I ever had such a person in my life. She was rude to everyone but me. She was selfish, she was mean and spiteful and she had this ridiculous belief that she was more attractive, more sexy and more everything than any woman alive. Which in fact she had done nothing with her life and she cared about no one but Herself, even as she accuses me of never loving her. She abandoned everything that I ever owned to be stolen or destroyed. She left me to die in prison for a crime she knew I did not commit. And she betrayed me instead of trying to help me and to force the police to find the real killer of Scott. What kind of person is this? A sick one indeed. Why would I waste my life to hurt her though? If I were going to hurt Michelle, I would have hurt every person who ever hurt me. And that list is endless and would include both of you. My own daughters, my son who was rotten to the core, immature, selfish and headed for prison, or a life of misery on a fast train. I would have to abandon all my plans for the future, my dreams, the faith, my work in the justice field, etc. This is the kind of person Michelle is, though she believes she's far more important than anyone else in this world ever thought she was. Me included. Her obsession with me is never ending. She can't even sit next to me without getting all mushy and personal. And yet she is so selfish that she will not expend one ounce of energy for anyone who does not let her have her way in all things. And each time she does the things she does was she convinces more and more people of just how rotten she truly is. Good people. People far better than I ever was. None of you has any grasp of concepts like virtue, honor, nobility, integrity, character or refinement. And yet I have been trying to make all of you see that is the lack of these things that is destroying this world. And that causes tragedies like each of us has experienced. But this is too much information for you in the sick world you exist in. Everyone deserves a second chance except me. And I never had a first chance with you. I did not leave you. I did not abandon you. And had Michelle had once portion of character, I would not be in prison now. And having learned what I learned about myself in the jail cell, at the least I would have been good to her, be it as a friend or more. She was like you are now. Though I saw and confessed my errors for the first time in my life, still she left me to hang from her own disgusting selfishness. Both of you judged me based on the conduct of people like that. And also fills me with great shame. Not for anything I have done, for I long ago accepted blame for that, but for who you are and who you all became. Neither you or Michelle for that matter, ever paid for the rotten things you did to others, myself included. But I Paid the price with 16 years of my life. Never again will I apologize to anyone unworthy of that sentiment. I used to apologize to Michelle, but I saw that hollow, spiritless void in her eyes. And she is exactly the same now as she was when she was 17. She is an exact clone of her mother. As are you, Elle. You have given weight and substance to character attacks levied at me by people like G, who I have heard horror stories about from Elle, Michelle, who I will not even bother trying to describe, and Crystal, a possible murderer. You took innocent things Amiko said and turned them into perversions because she foolishly thought that she could talk to you like mother and daughter. It would all be hilarious if it were not so tragic. I would have laid down my life for either of you. And you treated me worse than a rapid mongrel girl. I recall Elle with her melodramatic you'll never see me again. And what exactly am I losing? A backstabbing brat who conspired against me, who wasted my money, who used my wife's own car to drive around and degrade me. What did I lose? The self absorbed, airheaded, wannabe US army cop. I have seen corrupt police my whole life, and now I know how they start out. How will I survive the loss you manifest? The things I despise the most. Malice, irresponsibility, treachery, betrayal and cruelty. K, you're hardly worth mentioning because you didn't even try. But I will note this, which I consider to be the sickest thing of all of this. When you face court and character attacks and every type of slander. I was in your corner. I sent my wife, who spent hours getting ready to help you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You.

[Anya Cain]

I accepted you as you presented yourself, not as R and S presented you. I ignored who they said that you were, as did Amiko. Even though they lived with you and saw you every day. I accepted that they had an agenda. And even if they didn't, and now I know the things they said about you, your unstable mental state are true. I still would have stood by you because you were supposed to be my daughter and not the humiliating shame you made yourself. I accepted that RNs and even M, who was going to hurt your case and cared nothing for what it is it would have done to you, while you're sad enough to still support him, had an agenda, a reason to lie. But neither of you was bright enough or concerned enough to understand what happened to me, or selfless enough to care. K. If you had one iota of honor, you would have Done for me what I was willing to do for you. You once heard a crazy story about why I was in here. Almost none of which is true. And yet, even though you found out that my story was not true, look what you did. You judge my past sexual activities, which were never any of your business, nor are your mother's. Yet the first time you had sex, it was to see what it was like. And you slept with R because he paid attention to you. My, what a fine person you are compared to me. Elle is a former present criminal, a former present drunk drug user, and has rapped off the names of 20 boyfriends to me. So by your standards, she must be unworthy of your attention. You're both hypocrites and judgmental losers. In your worldview, it's okay to be gay, but not for two consenting adults to have consensual heterosexual love. Or at the least. Least you think you two have the right to decide how many lovers is too many or not enough. I find this amusing, giving your track records and your young ages. K with a child from a loveless relationship with a man she described to me as a bag of lard. And L limping from boyfriend to boyfriend just so someone is paying attention to her. Yes, you should both be proud of yourselves. Be especially proud that you hurt Amiko so very much. In all the years I've known her, I've not seen her do one mean thing to anyone, no matter how rotten they were to her. Just consider all that Michelle did alone, which she forgave and forgot your recent actions, though she will neither forgive nor forget. Nor will I. L. You probably have to get back to your military training so that you can assist the army in its mission to oppress innocent people of the world. Murder hundreds of thousands to fulfill the wicked mission of those in power in Washington. How special that you're an MP 2. Ask a soldier sometimes how corrupt and dirty most MPs are. They're the scum of the military by most accounts. It's even funnier how you think it's okay to go around breaking the law while pretending to care about enforcing it. The same corrupt law that keeps people like me in here administered by thoughtless, cruel and corrupted police officials. After that, you can get onto your wonderful career. And if you're really lucky, you can shoot for a guest shot on the Christopher Lowell Show. How proud I would be to see you on television, standing there with a bearded man who wears a dress, plays, and talks about covers for throw pillows. Please do not bother writing me or calling me or writing Amiko. And neither of us wish anything to do with either of you. I prefer not to associate with people of such low moral character. I learned my lesson long ago for making that same mistake. Mistake? I will not knowingly make it again. Sincerely, Temujin Kenzu P S L I would appreciate you changing your last name. Fill out the forms available from the courthouse and I will pay the fee. PPS I recall you telling me what an idiot you thought f was. Strange you want to see him now. Especially after all you have done to hurt the rest of your family. You also owe emiko over $500. Since you're so wealthy now, please see that she is repaid immediately. Temujin.