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- [00:00]
A
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A
And today we're going to be doing a just the facts evidentiary rundown of the murder of Scott Macklem by convicted murderer Temujin Kenzu.
- [01:45]
B
Content Warning this episode includes discussion of murder, violence and rape and suicide.
- [01:52]
A
So on November 5, 1986, a man now calling himself Temujin Kenzu murdered Scott Macklem in a parking lot at the St. Clair County Community College in Port Huron, Michigan.
- [02:05]
B
And of course, we have covered that case extensively. We have read the entire trial transcript, the entire commutation transcript, transcripts from other hearings connected to that case. These total thousands of pages. Also read the police file. Appeals, read the appeals. We've talked to countless people, both on and off the record behind the scenes. I think it's fair to say that outside of the members of law enforcement or the attorneys who worked on this case, we probably know this case better than anyone else.
- [02:39]
A
I would say at this point that's true. Yeah. And what we've heard from some listeners Is that, hey, guys, you put out a lot of stuff on this case, but what would be really helpful is. Is a single episode boiling down all of the really important evidence. We actually did something similar in the Delphi murders case where we just said, here's the whole case. Here's what we think is important evidence, here's what you would need to counter that evidence, and we go from there. I think that would be super helpful, and I agree. And thanks to those listeners for making that suggestion. This is a place for all the facts, all the facts that we think are significant as far as understanding this case goes. And it's also a way to succinctly sum up what goes into shaping our personal viewpoints on this case. It's. I mean, honestly, if it's something you agree with, if it's something you find helpful, this is an episode that you could possibly share or send to people and explain where you're coming from, or just explain the case as a whole. It can be difficult to convince people if they have to listen to a whole string of episodes, but if you can just say, this is where I'm coming from and it's just one thing, then usually people find that more helpful.
- [03:43]
B
Absolutely. And I also wanted to say a couple of words here about why I personally think it's so important to cover this case. The fact is that this man, Temujin Kinzu, Fred Freeman, or whatever he's calling himself today, he fooled a lot of people for a lot of years, and he got a lot of support from the media to help him fool people. And I think it's important for us all to acknowledge that, number one, because the truth matters. And I also think it's important for us to try to figure out and understand how it happened that he fooled so many people so that we don't get fooled again by others.
- [04:20]
A
Precisely. And I would just say this. I think this is a case that, for me, not everyone has to agree. People can certainly be undecided about guilt or innocence. We are very strongly in the guilt camp. But I understand where people are coming from, and I think everyone has their own viewpoint, and that should be respected. And that is good. But I think it's very important to understand why the jury made the decision it did, and you can disagree with their decision while also fully comprehending and understanding it. And that's where we want to at least illuminate things as far as that goes. And so this episode is going to just get into what we think matters. It's going to be about Guilt or innocence. It's going to be about the evidence. I will say it's probably not going to be comprehensive on every single detail. In this case. We did try to focus a little bit about what we feel is important. So it's not a 20 hour episode. And I do want to say this, the date of this release is significant. Today is Scott Macklem's birthday. Scott Macklem was born on December 25, 1965. He died when he was only 20 years old. He would have been 60 years old today. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [05:30]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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B
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [05:42]
A
And this is the murder of Scott. The guilt of Temujin Kenzu, the evidence.
- [06:02]
B
It. Foreign. Before we get into the details of the crime itself, we thought it might be helpful to take a quick look at Temujin Kinzu, his background, his life. There's a very important caveat here, a huge asterisk, if you will.
- [06:47]
A
Yes.
- [06:48]
B
A lot of the information about Mr. Kinzu's early years prior to the murder comes from Mr. Kinzu himself. And to put it as charitably as possible, his credibility is highly, highly suspect. So we can't necessarily vouch for the accuracy of all the information that we're about to share about his early life.
- [07:13]
A
Another caveat. So we're calling him Temujin Kenzie because we call people by the names that they want to be called by, regardless of who that is. So he's going by Temujin Kenzu now. He, his birth name is Frederick Thomas Freeman and he also has gone by aliases like John Lamar and Mickey Ford over time. Daniel Arts, I think, was one of them. So he's gone by a lot of different names. So when we're talking about these, we're going to try to swap in whatever his alias or if he's using his real name, we're going to swap that in for Kenzou, just to make this a lot easier on everybody.
- [07:49]
B
Yeah. And we've done that throughout all of our episodes.
- [07:51]
A
Absolutely. So May 23, 1963 is when Temujin Kenzie was born in Flint, Michigan. He grew up there. And that is the county seat of Genesee county in Michigan. Flint's about an hour away from Port Huron, where ultimately Kinsey would kill Scott Macklem. About an hour and 15 minutes away from Croswell, Michigan, where he met or where he. Where Crystal and Scott were from. Crystal being the mother of Scott's child and a woman who was abused by Temujin Kenzu. We'll go into more of that later. And yeah, so Port Huron, to give you a sense, is on Lake Huron. Flint is far more inland. Same kind of general area of Michigan. In terms of Temjun's childhood, we have some details, but again, most of these come from him. Kenzou claims that when he was three years old, his mother and father divorced.
- [08:42]
B
He also claims that his mother was highly abusive to him. I have to say that I've not really seen any evidence of that other than Mr. Kinzu's own claims. And again, his credibility is highly suspect.
- [09:00]
A
I think if there's a situation where he is claiming someone else is abusing him, that's something that we don't necessarily need to take at face value.
- [09:09]
B
Oftentimes when Mr. Kinzu claims that someone has abused him, the facts would show that he was actually abusing that person.
- [09:18]
A
That's correct. But then again, you know, you never know. So I. We know that. We know that he claims all up and down, a lot of interviews as well as court documents, that his mother was abusive, but we don't necessarily credit that his father died when he was seven. His mother also remarried at some point, and he claims that he lived on and off with a grandmother who was very elderly and senile and that he ran away when he was 14. So giving some glimpses into a troubled childhood, he claims he graduated from Flint's Northern high school in 1981. And that same year he also claims that he entered the United States army.
- [09:56]
B
That he served for a year and spent time at Fort Sill in Oklahoma.
- [10:01]
A
And that he was honorably discharged.
- [10:03]
B
We have tried hard to verify this alleged military service. We have not been able to successfully do so. That doesn't necessarily mean that he's lying about it, but it is a distinct possibility considering the nature of this individual.
- [10:19]
A
So he also claims that he did a year in college. This was from the police file. I believe at one point he indicated that to police. Unclear when, where, how so? I. That's just a claim that he's made. So let's go into some more concrete dates. And these, of course, have to do with actual physical violence and criminal acts by Temujin Kenzo, because that's when things really start to become more clear. So, October 9, 1982. And this is from the transcript of the commutation hearing. In 2010, the Genesee County Sheriff's office arrested Temujin Kenzu, charged him with felonious assault. He got a 90 day jail sentence, pled guilty to misdemeanor charge of assault and battery. He was dating a woman we will call S. He claims that she was, quote, pretty crazy and she assaulted him. But police seem to believe that he assaulted her with a weapon.
- [11:13]
B
In 1983, Kinzu assaulted up a woman we call G, who he was married to. This comes from her commutation hearing testimony. After assaulting her, he declared that she would have to die. He forced her onto her knees, forced her to hold a sword to her belly, again saying she had to die. And at the time all this was going on, she was pregnant with his child, Laina.
- [11:42]
A
She met him when she was just a teenager, G did and they got married, I think in 84. But they had been together before that and he abused her horrifically. If you want more information on that, you can listen to our interviews with G that have come out on this podcast. I would just say go back into our kind of feed and look up Temujin Kenzu and you'll see it there. Those are very. She went through some really harrowing stuff and she survived it and it's just a very impressive woman. So October 22, 1983, Kenzie steals some stuff. So he does fraud. The Lacy Police Department in Lacey, Washington. That's Washington state on the. On the west coast, they. They look into a case where he wrote four insufficient checks to Paulson's store. He used those to buy a 1981 Suzuki motorcycle and was subsequently arrested in Nebraska after fleeing Washington. Obviously, when we're looking at this, compared to the violence, certainly not as big of a deal, but it does show a just a general propensity to lie, cheat and steal.
- [12:48]
B
At some point in 1984, he called a childhood friend and threatened to kill both the childhood friend and his father.
- [12:55]
A
Yes, October 9, 1984, there's another assault. And this is again from the commutation hearing testimony. In July or August of 1984, Kenzo assaulted a woman who we will call J.S. this was in Olympia, Washington. He slapped her in the face and he also kicked down her door before assaulting her. So Kenzu claims in the commutation hearing that this case was dropped. Authorities say he just absconded before the case could go forward. He admits to kicking the door down, but he said it was his own door. They were living together, so I guess that makes it okay. And he basically indicates some big misunderstanding because he was allowed to Go to Michigan. And what the prosecutors at the commutation hearing said was, no, you weren't. So November 20, 1984, Kenzie was on the lam. He failed to appear for a probable cause hearing at the Superior Court of Thurston County, Washington. And again, he claims he was in Michigan on a leg, legally on an interstate compact. That doesn't really make any sense because he was using multiple aliases. So I think. I think I'm with the prosecutors who were at the commutation hearing on this one. Laina's mother, again, G, she wed ken Zoo in 1984, but also then fled him. They were divorced in 1987 after the murder of Scott Macklem, but they had been separated for a while because she literally fled for her life.
- [14:13]
B
So In July, on July 22. Pardon me, July 25, 1985, Kinzu attacked the man who Ji was then seeing. About 11am Kinzu followed Ji and this man in a car. Kinzu yelled, made them pull over. Kinzu attacked the boyfriend. There was a court case against him. And the man said that Kinzu lunged at him and told him, quote, he was dead. Said he had hurt a lot of people, said he had beat a lot of people. Those claims by Mr. Kinzu are ones I do indeed credit.
- [14:53]
A
Now, those were actually claims by G's boyfriend when talking to police. Yes. So this is. This is a situation where he's attacking a male rival for the, quote, unquote, affections of a woman that he deems as his property.
- [15:07]
B
Yes.
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A
So fall of 1985, a woman named Michelle moves in with Kenzou. She says in the commutation hearing that she met. I think she wrote a letter that was read there. She met him when she was very young. She was in high school and she quit school to be with him. So he has a. This is his typical profile. This is his typical modus operandi. He targets women who are much younger, you know, like they're in high school, they're teenagers, and he sort of sucks them into his world. If you had the power to stop a crime before it happened, wouldn't you do it? What if that crime was done against yourself or your own family? Well, with Simplisafe's home security system, you can stop break ins and burglaries before they even happen.
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- [17:48]
B
Sometime in 1985, Kinzu claimed he was living with a woman we will call LC in Ann Arbor, Michigan. LC says that Kinzu would beat and threaten her and also the Kinzu hated women.
- [18:03]
A
Yeah, no lies detected. April 1986 Kenzou threatens to kill the family of his another girlfriend of his. D One thing that it's important to note, you may be saying, wow, there's a lot of women that he's with and there seems to be some overlap. That is true. Kenzou had a thing for having multiple women at the same time. And you know it was not uncommon for a lot of this stuff to to overlap. So when it comes to getting around the Croswell Port Huron area, my understanding is that he started renting some kind of cottage in Lakeport, Michigan. Lake Port, Michigan is about 10 miles north of Port Huron, 20 miles south of Croswell And I believe the dates that he was renting there were April 17, 1986, to August 30, 1986. That's just from the police reports. So that's when he kind of gets in that area. Nobody knows exactly why he was in that area at the time except for him, I imagine. Although, frankly, if you were in the party scene in that general area in the, you know, and you were aware of a guy named Frederick Freeman or Freddie Freeman or John Lamar or Mickey Ford or whatever, a guy who's really into karate and beating women, please get in contact with us. We don't care if you were involved in drugs or whatever you were doing. We just want to know what this guy was doing there. Okay. So, anyways, let's go to Crystal. Crystal, in some ways, is another person at the center of this story. Crystal is the mother of Scott's child. Crystal was engaged to marry Scott when Scott was murdered. Crystal is a young woman who grew up from a farming family. She grew up in Croswell, Michigan, which is a small farming community. We've talked to people who know her, and we interviewed some of them on some recent episodes that we did about Scott Macklemon, what he was like. So Scott and Crystal both grew up together in Croswell. They'd been friends with each other since kindergarten, and. And, yeah, they were just friends for years. They were, you know, in that same friend group, and they would confide in each other, and they had a nice friendship.
- [20:27]
B
They started dating sometime after they graduated from high school. Their friends remember it as starting somewhere, probably around the summer of 1984, in the early months of 1986, they broke up.
- [20:40]
A
Right. And after that, Crystal dated a man named Arlen. I think he was a couple years older than her. It was. He describes it in police reports as, you know, somewhat casual. And after the first week In May of 1986, he says he had to go back to Mississippi. He was working on a Mississippi river ship, and he did not expect her to wait for him. You know, she's, you know, like, so they kind of. But it's amicable.
- [21:06]
B
So later, in the spring of 1986, Crystal met Kinzu at a time when Crystal was working at a video store.
- [21:14]
A
We don't know when exactly that is, I should say with. But it was sometime in spring.
- [21:18]
B
Yes, he became very interested in Crystal. He. He asked her out on a date, I guess you would call it. But it wasn't really a date because he ended up brutally raping her, and he basically coerced her into continuing to see him for a few weeks, during which time she was emotionally and physically abused. And he would threaten to harm her or others if she tried to leave the relationship.
- [21:51]
A
And, you know, one thing that's important to note is that people in Crystal's life saw changes in her that coincide with this, and they saw changes that coincide with somebody being abused. So people. Crystal and Kenzou met when she was working at a place called Grove Video. It was a video store. And her coworkers, he said he would hang around. He was incredibly possessive of her. They noticed a couple times when her friend Scott, you know, because even Scott was a gentleman. Scott was a guy where he, you know, he and a girlfriend would break up and they would still remain quite friendly. So he would visit his friend Crystal and Kenzou would stare at him. One time, people remembered at the store that Kenzie followed Scott into the parking lot. And Crystal confided in some of her co workers. She was upset, fearful. She said Kenzo assaulted her. She said that Kenzo claimed to have the store bugged so he could. He would know what they were talking about, so they had to be quiet. Another Grove Video employee said that Kenzo would hang around the shop, was very obsessed with borrowing Crystal's car. And one time, Crystal asked this, this other employee to ask Kenzou for her car keys back. Kenzou freaked out at the guy and called him a slur that starts with F and is a horrible word used to refer to gay people, and threatened to harm him physically. All for just getting, hey, can you give her car keys back?
- [23:19]
B
In June of 1986, Arlen and Crystal had lunch on his break. She seemed uptight about something, said she couldn't date him anymore. A few days later, at a Taco Bell parking lot, he was accosted by three men, one of whom said, hey, do you know a friend of ours is effing your girl's brains out? Arlen lashed out, struck one of them, and then he ran as the guys laughed at him. He later went to Crystal's house and mentioned that she was curled up on a couch under a blanket.
- [23:56]
A
Yeah. So Crystal ended up summoning the fortitude to leave her abuser in late June to mid July. It's not quite clear when, but there's. I think there was like a. A process of leaving. And that summer, subsequently to that, Crystal and Scott got back together. That is when Kenzou begins stalking both of them. And I want to make this really clear because this is something that only became, I Think really apparent in, like what? When some of. In some of our reporting, frankly, Scott was aware that Kenzie was stalking him. Scott knew who was stalking him. Scott knew all about it. And Scott actually did something about this in the latter part of the summer of 1986. So cars had been driving past the Macklem home late at night in such a way that I imagine the Macklems noticed and became concerned. Scott told his mother that he thought Kenzu was the one doing this, and he told his mother that he believed that license plates were being switched around on different vehicles. I imagine the only way he would come to that conclusion is if they keep seeing cars and there's different license plates and they're trying to take them down, and it's not the same one. So Scott decides he's going to go over to Kenzoo's Lakeport cottage, and he spies a bunch of vehicles outside, and he writes down the license plates for a red Opal, a blue Oldsmobile Cutlass, and a motorcycle, and he gives them to somebody. The name is redacted in the police report to look up the ownership of those of those vehicles. And sure enough, after the murders, police run this down more, and they find that the proper plates were not affixed. That's what I can glean from this police report.
- [25:36]
B
Yeah. So Scott Macklin was basically sleuthing his own murder before it happened. Many people on Team Kinzu have tried to suggest, oh, if Scott was being stalked, it must have been by somebody else. Uh, it's very clear that the person doing the stalking was Tim JenkinsU and that Mr. Macklem was well aware of this.
- [25:58]
A
I mean, there's other incidents, too, and it's really horrifying to think about because I get the sense that Scott was not necessarily in fear for his life because he maybe thought this guy was just harassing them and would move on eventually. But you can see the escalation. Someone broke into Scott's car, threw his golf clubs out on the ground. One day, Scott came to a coworker at the back of the store where he worked a clothing store. And he told this person, hey, the guy I was talking about who was bothering me and Crystal, he's at the front of the store right now, and there's two guys, the harasser and another male. And this other employee got a very good look at one of them, and then later identified that person as Temujin Kenzu. He's convinced that I saw Temujin Kenzu in the store that day when Scott was talking about who was harassing him and directed my attention to these two people. One of them was Temujin Kenzu. And what we saw from the Taco Bell incident was that Temujin Kenzu seemingly had no shortage of loser males who hung around him and would, you know, be his toadies. So, I mean, I guess the second person doesn't really matter so much as the fact that Temujin Kenzie was one of the people there.
- [27:15]
B
Yes.
- [27:16]
A
So Scott said basically something to the effect of he's not necessarily afraid, or he didn't come across as necessarily afraid, but he didn't want to start anything at the store. I mean, this is where he works. He doesn't want to get into a fight there. Another friend who golfed with Scott talked about how Scott mentioned a guy bothering him and Crystal and he. This is where I think a lot of the confusion comes in. And we can go more into this later, but this friend in the statement said this occurred in January or February of 1986. Crystal and Kenzie were not together until spring of 1986. So I think this person just got the dates wrong. But this person also specifically mentions John Lamar, which is Kenzu's alias.
- [27:57]
B
Yes.
- [27:58]
A
So it's clear they're talking about Kenzou and perhaps getting the date wrong. I don't think that's a big deal. But people use that to say, oh, it wasn't talking about Kenzo, but he specifically names Kenzu's alias.
- [28:09]
B
Yeah. And that's a sign, frankly, of the intellectual dishonesty of some of the people on Team Kinzu. They don't tell you the whole thing.
- [28:16]
A
It's like, gotcha. It's like, no, that's not how it works. You know, like he's pulling out the specific name.
- [28:23]
B
But to get back to the timeline, Crystal got pregnant, and then the couple gets engaged, her and Scott. Her and Scott get engaged.
- [28:32]
A
They get engaged, and, you know. But the harassment unfortunately continues. So I should say there was a. I think we talked about July or August. Scott talked about how a white jacket and shoes were taken from his car around that time. Crystal also had her car keys stolen, and those were later found in Scott's car after Scott's murder.
- [28:55]
B
Which is. Which is bizarre.
- [28:57]
A
Bizarre.
- [28:58]
B
Scott would have no reason to steal Crystal's car keys.
- [29:03]
A
And also Crystal had a backup set, so it's not like she needed them. But one person who was obsessed with Crystal's car keys and was constantly switching out cars was Temujin Kenzu. In addition, October 27, 1986, Scott got $15 from another from a coworker. He had to do something with ups. I can't tell whether that was something he needed to do personally or if that was something that was from a work assignment. And a couple days later, he went to look for it in the car, and he said the money was gone from his car. So he ended up paying her back the $15 from his own pocket.
- [29:35]
B
Someone stole the money from his car?
- [29:36]
A
Yes. October of 1986. It's pheasant hunting season. Scott's hunting with a good friend, and the friend notices that Scott seems upset. Scott says to explain his mood, he says he has to be careful because some guy was after him. Some guy was bothering Crystal. He did not say the guy's name, but he said that this guy was a psycho and had tried to start a fight with him at his workplace, the store. So who's that? Who's a psycho and who started a try to start something with him at his store?
- [30:08]
B
This is Temujin Kinsey.
- [30:09]
A
Yeah, there's not a mystery here.
- [30:10]
B
Scott is well aware of who is stalking and threatening him.
- [30:14]
A
And he notes that this guy was, you know, possibly vandalizing and stealing from his car, and that this. This guy was following him around and threatening him and being weird with Crystal. So now we're gonna get to a specific party that happened. I think in the past, we've reported it as a Devil's night party on October 30, 19, 1986. Devil's Night being the night before Halloween. And then in other instances, it's been reported as occurring on Halloween and going from October 31st to November 1st in the early morning hours. So I guess I don't know what's right. I've seen both reported. I guess it doesn't really matter. But I'm noting that we may have been wrong when we said the 30th, or we may be wrong now when we're saying the first, what's really predominant in these police files that we have now is the first. So I don't know.
- [31:08]
B
That said, tell us what happened to this party.
- [31:11]
A
So there is a party, and it's in the kind of, you know, Croswell, Lexington area. I think a lot of people. I think there's like over a hundred people there. People are in costume. And at that party, we have two things. We have several witnesses placing Kenzie at the party. One guy who met Kenzo at the Lexington harbor in the summer of 1986. He says hello to Kenzo at the party. And another woman her three sons were at a band playing at this party, and she said she saw Kenzou there. And at that party, Crystal's pregnancy and her engagement to Scott were both topics of discussion. Now, we don't need to assume that Kenzou knew about that. We know for a fact he knew.
- [32:00]
B
About it because he admitted that during his testimony at the commutation hearing. So whether it was at this party, which seems very plausible, or elsewhere, he got this information that Crystal is pregnant and is going to be marrying Scott. It's also worth noting that in his testimony of the commutation hearing, not only does Mr. Kinzu say, I knew she was pregnant, he even goes so far to say that at the time he wondered incorrectly if the child might be his. I want to stress the child is not Temujenkinzu's, but he thought there was a possibility that it was.
- [32:41]
A
And again, that's coming straight from Temujin Kenzu. That's not us speculating. He admits that in a commutation hearing. So I think that's.
- [32:50]
B
And this is a man to whom his children and his bloodline are tremendously important. He would later go on to try to found a cult which asserts that his children are extraordinarily important. So I would imagine the idea that his child might be raised by another man would be very, very upsetting to this very stupid and angry man.
- [33:16]
A
If you want to know more about how Temujin Kenzu treated his children, the children that are his. If you can go back and listen to our. I think we had three episodes with Lena, his daughter. G's daughter, a wonderful woman, just a very powerful advocate. And she talked about some of the bizarre treatment of her that Kenzou did, where, you know, he. She entered his life mostly as a. As a young woman. And he immediately started trying to control every aspect of her life. So I think that, you know, there was a. There was an element of control. People who are parents who are not in a healthy place, I guess that's a nice euphemism, sometimes see children as an extension of themselves rather than their own individual human beings. And so I personally, that is how I think Kenzu sees his children. And I think that plays a part into what happened Next here. So November 1, 1986. I can't tell, again, if this is perhaps something that happened as Scott and Crystal were driving away from the party or at a different time. Again, the dates are a little fuzzy here, so let's just keep that in mind. I'd rather just admit. Hey, we don't know. Rather than say, okay, here's what it is, and then be wrong. So Crystal talks about this incident. It's about 1:30am she and Scott are driving west on Lapeer near Wadhams, and they see a smaller car and two white men inside. And those that car passes them, then suddenly slows down to 15 miles an hour. Scott turns onto north and then heads onto Vincent Road. And the vehicle is still following them from behind. And she and Scott in the car are talking about this. Seem like this is probably Kenzu, but it's dark and they can tell this. Two white men in the car following them, but they can't tell who exactly it is, so they can't conclusively say it's Kenzu, but she is. Scott ends up losing them. But they walked away from that incident being like that. Seems like it was Kenzoo, because that's in line with what we know about him and what he's been doing to us lately.
- [35:22]
B
There is no way to prove that one way or the other. Personally, I feel it's very likely that was indeed Mr. Kinzu who was trying to intimidate Crystalline Scott.
- [35:32]
A
Yes. And as far as we know, he did something similar to that to G's boyfriend, where there was an incident where he's following in a car, slows down, gets him to pull over and then attacks.
- [35:45]
B
So it's fitting the murder occurs a few days later on November 5, 1986. So this would just be a few days after cancer perhaps gets this news that Crystal is pregnant and engaged to another man, which.
- [36:00]
A
And he himself confirms that he knew.
- [36:02]
B
Yes.
- [36:03]
A
Let's go into a timeline of November 5th.
- [36:05]
B
Tell us about Scott's day.
- [36:06]
A
Yeah, let's talk about November 5th, 1986. This is when this all happens. So Scott, Scott is driving a 1973 Plymouth Turismo, and at that time he was 20 years old and he was attending St. Clair County Community College in Port Huron, Michigan. Let's talk about the classes he had on his schedule for that day. He had an 8am gym class, and the policy there was students could miss their assigned class and then take the next one the following hour. I want to note, nobody saw Scott in the gym class that day and he did not have wonderful attendance in that class. Although frankly, an 8am gym class sounds like something I wouldn't have had very good attendance for either. And he, you know, he also had a 9am class in the main building. Modern short story. And there's no written attendance records associated with that class, but the instructor said she could only remember two instances where Scott was absent. Now, based on the items that Scott had with him that day, and we'll go into that later, I think it's possible or even likely that he was planning to attend the 9am makeup gym session. I think that's very possible.
- [37:14]
B
What happened before Scott arrived at school? Again, he arrived around 9am so before.
- [37:22]
A
Scott pulled up around 9am let's go to a witness named Richard Krueger. He pulled into a lot, what's described in the police files as the Andrew Murphy lot around 8 to 8:10am and he's driving into his parking space and he sees a guy. Okay, well it's a community college campus. There's lots of guys, but this guy stands out. This guy's wearing a army green fatigue coat. He's got a dark hat, kind of a pull down hat that's folded up neatly on his head. Looks like he has maybe a light beard. It's neatly trimmed. And he kind of has a military body bearing according to Krueger. He kind of carries himself with that military bearing. And Krueger makes eye contact with this guy and they just start staring at each other. And something about this guy concerns Krueger. He says it's almost like the guy's on a mission, like he's there to do something, like he's going to war is how he puts it.
- [38:18]
B
And, and I think it's worth noting that in a photo lineup and in court, Kruger identified the man he saw as Temujin Kenzie.
- [38:28]
A
And you might be wondering, well, why did Kruger look at him so much? Kruger thought the thing that pops into his mind is this guy's gonna like maybe start smashing into some cars and stealing people's stuff. He's not thinking this guy's gonna murder someone. He's just thinking this is kind of weird and this guy's putting off a weird vibe. And when, when they kind of make eye contact, this guy ends up leaving the area and kind of like marching out of there. And he almost like, I think this is the one where he almost like walks up to a building almost as if to go in, but it's like a locked door and anyone on campus would have known that. And then he kind of awkwardly walks the other way. So it's like he obviously doesn't really know the campus if he's kind of putting himself in this position. But he's trying to look like he knows where he's going. And it's just like he's throwing up Some red flags ending.
- [39:12]
B
And that man later identified by Mr.
- [39:15]
A
Kruger as Tim in a photo lineup and in court.
- [39:19]
B
Yes, as I mentioned. Tell us about the next witness, Janet.
- [39:22]
A
Janice Kuz is a witness who is employed at the College. And around 8:05, 8:10, she's driving. She's driving around, she sees a white male. She sees a guy wearing an army jacket, navy blue watch cap. Again, very similar to Kruger's description. She thinks he's clean shaven, but she admits she didn't really get a very good look at his face. And she sees him walking north on the lot sidewalk between the gym building and the student center.
- [39:51]
B
So she's not able to get a good enough look at him to make identification either way. But I do want to mention this jacket that she saw on him, which is also the jacket that Mr. Krueger saw on this person. A jacket meeting that description was found in the trunk of Mr. Kinzu's vehicle upon his arrest.
- [40:10]
A
Yes. And I just want to note one other thing. This stuck out to her because she thought he looked out of place. She didn't think he looked like a student. He looked out of place. So let's talk about another wrinkle to what happened that day. When we're talking about Scott, he's like, you know, he in, in. In the early part of the 8am hour. He has not arrived yet. He arrives close to 9am but when he pulls in and he parks his car, he's parking in, quote, the wrong lot that day. So what does that mean? Well, there was a pass system and you would get passes for different lots and he did not have a pass for the lot that is known as the SC4 parking lot. This parking lot is adjacent to the student center. It's just off Stone Street. He doesn't have a pass through it. He should be parking in a different lot. People often pull out this detail as something highly unusual. And I understand that you want to look at things, okay, how is this different? How do we interpret this? But I think when we've talked to people who knew Scott, including people who attended this college, they said that it was really not that out of character for him to park where he parked the day of his murder. People would sneak into lots they weren't supposed to park in. And there was an element of it, like some of the passes were more expensive than others. So maybe you risk getting a couple of tickets here and there. And I think there was just a kind of a casualness to this at times.
- [41:38]
B
I think this is a total Red herring that Team Kinzu tries to blow up into something. And it means very little, if it means anything at all. Also worth noting is that at the time, as we've established, Scott is aware he is being actively stalked. And when you're actively stalked, it's also not unusual to switch up your routines a little bit in order to avoid your stalker. I think this wrong parking lot thing is a ridiculous piece of nonsense.
- [42:09]
A
When you also go into, you know, what he may have been there to do. The gym class would have been very easily accessible from this lot. So if he's kind of hurrying to a makeup gym class that day, it makes sense for him to park nearby. So there's a lot of different reasons. It really doesn't seem significant to me. So a Little bit before 9am Scott pulls into a space in the SC4 lot. His car is facing eastward, and he seemingly is getting out of his car when he is shot. And here's what the scene looks like. Nobody actually sees him get shot, although people see the aftermath pretty quickly. There is a blue gym bag and a pair of tennis shoes on the ground next to his vehicle. The shoes are stacked neatly on top of the gym bag. The bag has a physical education textbook with Macklem's name on it. And in addition to that, the keys of his car are on the pavement on the driver's side. In the police report, it's described as if the victim had been in the process of locking the car. He puts down his stuff, so it goes to lock the car and then gets shot. He is shot in the area underneath his left arm, in his upper rib area. There's a trace of gunpowder residue on his left ear. His red jacket has a cookie cutter effect hole on it from shotgun pellets from a very short distance, about 1 inch in diameter. And the entrance wound in his body is 3 inches in diameter. And there's unfortunately lung material projecting from that wound. He ends up falling on his stomach. And it almost looks like to people, like he's reaching under his car. To people nearby, the blood is not immediately evident. It almost looks like he's having car trouble or he drops something and he's reaching under the car. Now he seemingly, after he's shot, according to witnesses, he staggers a bit and starts yelling for help. He. He may scream. People thought his reaction was a joke. And the reason for that is that I think people thought, when you look at the witness statements, I think people thought that there was like some kind of car exhaust that kind of blew up or Just kind of some kind of explosion sound. And then, and then, oh no, I got shot. Like that kind of thing. And it was like a prank. And they're like, oh, this guy's just goofing around. He wasn't, he was actually shot. And people described there being a high pitched scream. They thought it was again, someone kidding around, doing a bit. And you know, so that's the initial thing. There's a number of people who hear screams, hear the shot, and then a couple people who are witnesses who, who really matter to what we're talking about here. So we're going to focus on them. So there's one witness named Kathleen Ballard. And from 8:55 to 9:00am, this Ms. Ballard is in the student center parking lot. She hears a firecracker sound. She hears Scott yelling and she also hears like a high pitched scream. She sees a small vehicle pulling out of the parking lot and it's going faster than you would expect. And the driver appears to be attempting to conceal his face. She gets a look at him, she thinks he's about 19, white male, dark hair. But she does not get a great look at his face because of his attempts to conceal. And she thought it was a prank. She thought there was like some guys goofing around. She ultimately in court said that she could not conclusively identify Tem Jinkenzu as the driver. She didn't get a good look and she wasn't going to just, you know, say she saw something when she didn't. But she did say in court that he matched the description, that he was not inconsistent with what she saw.
- [45:53]
B
Another important witness, Renee Gobind, he may.
- [45:56]
A
Be the witness, he may be the most important.
- [45:59]
B
He was walking. He sees a vehicle approaching him. He sees the driver of this vehicle. And again, this driver seems to be concealing his face, just as Ms. Ballard described. This vehicle travels past him and exits the parking lot. Mr. Gobein makes a note of the license number of the plate. 882dhh, the Michigan plate. He gives a detailed description of the suspect and the suspect vehicle. Mr. Gilbein then sees Scott lying on his stomach as if he's looking for something under the vehicle, his vehicle. He also sees a gym bag stacked under by the door.
- [46:43]
A
He thinks something happened to his car like a tire blowout and he's checking it.
- [46:48]
B
The description he gave at the time was this was a white male, about 25 years old, dark blue ski mask, trimmed red around mouth, folded up over top of the suspect's forehead, olive, drab, green army jacket, dark hair, all matching these.
- [47:06]
A
All these witnesses are all very consistent with one another. Yeah, with a few minor details, but generally pretty frigging consistent.
- [47:14]
B
He says he may have made a mistake on the last number of the plate.
- [47:19]
A
Yes. And he was. This is something that's really important with Renee Gobind. He conclusively identifies Temujin Kenzie was the man he saw. And that's not just once or twice in photo lineups. When he gets to the Temujin Kenzie picture, this is the guy in in person lineups he sees. I think he like went to physical lineups and there were like six people and Temujin Kenzie was the second guy he saw. That's the guy. That's him in court. He was emphatic. This is the man I saw. I recognize his face. He got a very good look at him when he's driving away from the murder scene. So he saw Tembajinkenzu fleeing the scene and he's been emphatic and certain about that from the jump. So that's, that's something to note. And then there's a couple of other different witness sightings, but again those are the really, really important ones who have kind of the clues as far as what then the investigation is looking at. Witnesses pull up next to Scott's car around 8:58. Again this is. It sounds like a lot is happening and it sounds like a long time, but it's actually just a couple minutes. And one of the guy, this guy who pulls up, he sees Scott on the ground, he thinks, oh, do you need some help? Like you're like, almost like, have you dropped something? Are you trying to work on your car? What's going on? And he doesn't respond. So he turns him over and hears a deep gurgle from Scott. His eyes are like rolled back and this guy realizes that he's in trouble. He starts giving him mouth to mouth. Another guy runs to the nearby fire department building and gets them to come help and, and at that point he's transported to the hospital. He does not survive though. Scott Macklem dies at the age of 20. And police, in the report, they talk about how Port Huron Hospital where Scott is taken. They extract two blood soaked shotgun shell wads from the victim. And court documents indicate that there was a 12 gauge double aught shot found in the victim's body. So they're looking at a shotgun at close range and there's a 12 gauge shot associated with this. So there's a couple of things people often note about this, this horrible crime. On the one hand, people note correctly, in my view, that this was clearly a targeted hit on Scott. This was not a random drive by shooting. Scott was targeted. And people ask, how could this ambush have been done? How could this person have known where Scott would be, where he would park, if it wasn't the normal lot? Well, what we have is evidence of a suspicious individual, very, you know, the same individual who murdered Scott in a scene, driving away, we see that they're there a little less than an hour before Scott gets there. And this person appears to be scoping out the whole area. Now, we've been to this area, we've been to this lot. And I felt that there were a couple of places where you could get a decent vantage point. As far as we were concerned. If you were waiting for someone, you would just perhaps stand somewhere or be kind of walking around between a couple of different places and you could be monitoring who's coming in. It seems very realistic that Kenzou could have set himself up somewhere central and was just on the lookout for Scott that morning. And here's a very important point. We know one person who knew exactly what kind of car Scott drove, and that was the guy who Scott believed was constantly breaking into his car. And that person was Temujin Kenzu.
- [51:04]
B
Right.
- [51:07]
A
Okay, now we're gonna get into the topsy turvy version of November 5, 1986. And this is the November 5, 1986 that Temujin Kenzu claims to have experienced. So do you want to get into that?
- [51:23]
B
Kinzu claims that at the time he was living in Escanaba, Michigan, in the Upper Peninsula, which is quite a distance from St. Clair Community College. It would take about six and a half hours to drive that distance. So we know the crime, the murder, was committed at 9am so if Mr. Kanzu shoots Mr. Macklem and then immediately drives back to Escanaba, he would arrive there at 3:30. So that means if he is seen in Escanaba after 3:30, that doesn't really mean anything in terms of his guilt or innocence in the crime. We were only concerned with alibi witnesses who might have placed him in the area of Escanaba between 9am and 3.30pm when he would have had to be on the road.
- [52:20]
A
Yes. And now Ken Zhu for years has claimed that assorted various numbers of alibi witnesses put him up there that day. And obviously, if that's true, that's a huge deal.
- [52:31]
B
Yes.
- [52:32]
A
So let's go through Kenzie's timeline that he and his girlfriend and also abuse victim Michelle gave police back then and again, let's remember the times. 9am on a Wednesday, November 5, 1986. That is approximately when the murder happened. Kenzou was ultimately arrested for this crime on November 13, 1986 in Troy, Michigan. These claims are mostly gleaned from two interviews Kenzou did with police. This can be a little bit confusing for me. I just want to note this. The names are redacted in the police reports. We're going to do our best. The order of these is less critical at a certain point. So even if we got some of these things jumbled or they got jumbled in Kenzou's own mind, I think the alibi witnesses don't matter. Regardless of whether they're saying it's 10am or 2pm if they say they didn't see you that day, it doesn't really matter.
- [53:24]
B
Yes.
- [53:24]
A
So just note. Kenzou says that on November, on Tuesday, November 4, 1986, he was with friends, he was at a party and then he slept in until 10 or 11 the next morning. Later on he more conclusively says 11am so if the, if the crime took place at 9am Then he couldn't possibly be there. He woke up then and went to Escanaba about 25 miles from Rock, took Michelle with him. They went to their landlord Melvin Carlson's house because Kenzou was claiming to do nutritional therapy at that point and brought the landlord some vitamin C and B complex, paid the rent. The rent receipt was backdated and then Kenzu's red marquee car got into trouble around noon, so he left it in the local Kmart parking lot and claimed he had went over to a mobile station and had them service it. Then he went to a friend's house, talked to a woman about nutrition, weight control and depression. This guy really loves talking to women about nutrition and weight control. Just as a note. And he saw a female high schooler in town that day. He also went to Karen and Jim Dombrowski's music shop and because he had a, he had a guitar lesson the following day, but he just went in and maybe helped them with a door. Then he went to a real estate office, was looking at possibly renting a shop to sell vitamins, went to a karate school and then went down to the Treasure Chest store which sold martial arts equipment, talked to a manager. There was a went back to a friend's house in Escanaba, woke him up around 4:30 or so and then hung out till 7pm and then he goes to Ponderosa, yada, yada, yada. None of that stuff matters because once we get, you know, to the 4:30 range and onward, there's. There's nothing, you know, that's it. It's very interesting in one of the conversations with a police officer, I believe one that he, when police raided his home with Michelle, he called and then she put them him on the phone with the detectives. That must have been surreal. And I think at that point he tells them, I quote, I definitely couldn't have flown or driven, end quote. This case often gets attention because people emphasize that the prosecution put out the possibility that he flew from Escanaba to Port Huron. The prosecution was only doing that in a rebuttal, you know, to give the jury something.
- [55:55]
B
And Mr. Kinzu is the one that puts out the possibility of flying first several times. So again, according to Mr. Kinzu, his day involves him interacting with his lady friend Michelle, his landlord Melvin Carlson, a mobile station to get some help for his car, a friend's house, high school girl, realty building, music shop owners Karen and Jim Dombrowski, a karate school, the Treasure Chest store, and a friend's house in Escanaba. So why don't we go and see what those people say to say to figure out if what they say backs up Mr. Kinzu's claims?
- [56:34]
A
I love that. Absolutely. And I just want to say, before we start with Michelle, that's a pretty packed schedule. That's a lot. You can. If that's all true, then that's a significant amount of people saying you're in one place. So what do these people have to say? Exactly. Let's talk about Michelle. So on her November 13, 1986 interview with police, she immediately starts out by claiming that Kenzou, who was going by Mickey Ford up in Escanaba, had a big belly and light hair and was just a totally different guy than what he actually looked like. So she just starts off this conversation with police by straight up lying for him in order to throw them off and acting like Mickey Ford was someone totally different than Kenzo. So that's how she's starting things off in terms of her credibility. She claims that Kenzie was with her at her home on November 5th and was not even out of bed until 11am and later that she was with him. They had their dogs. Michelle is an abuse victim of Kenzoo's, and she herself has come out and said that in the letter she sent to the commutation hearing. So that's not in question. Michelle is a victim. But it is very fair and appropriate to note that Michelle has a history of lying for this man. Both of those things can be true. She's a victim of his. And frankly, I think the reason she lies for him is because of the horrible, horrible things he's done to her and the fear he has instilled in her. She's not a credible person in this case.
- [58:04]
B
Mr. Kenzoo says that he had an interaction with his landlord involved him giving his landlord some vitamin pills. The landlord says that did not happen. He testified at trial that Kinzu was lying. He says that Michelle was the one who gave him vitamin pills. Mr. Kinzu even phoned Mr. Carlson, his landlord, on November 14, 1986, after Mr. Kinzu was arrested and tried to persuade Mr. Carlson he was wrong. But Mr. Carlson held forth to his story that Mr. Kinzu's characterization of what happened was a lie and that he did not see Mr. Kinzu that day.
- [58:48]
A
Next, let's try the mobile station. What happened there? So officers checked the local mobile station on Ludington, and they said, we never serviced a car in a KMARK parking lot. We never saw that guy. He never came. Certainly did not come on November 5th. Police went above and beyond. They did not just stop with mobile. They checked the Marathon station on Ludington and Highway 2. They in total checked 10 or 11 stations. They went to every station and mechanical garage they could find to see if anything like this happened. Forget Kmart. Maybe. Maybe this guy came in and parked somewhere else or whatever. But nobody saw Kenzu that day. Nobody saw a red Mercury Marquis that day. The story was fiction. That never happened. Now, the friend's house. I think we're going to address that in the general alibi section. It's hard to know what friend is being talked about here because it's all, like, redacted. The high schooler. So I guess Kenzie's boasting about hanging out with a girl in 10th grade. Yikes. She talked about how she remembered walking in escanaba downtown on November 5th. And get this. She saw Kenzu, but not at the time he indicated. I think he, in his conversation with police, made a comment about. She must have been skipping school that day. She was emphatic. I did not skip school that day. I was in school that day, and I could not have seen him until after 3:30, 3:30 at the earliest, possibly 4:00pm so when we talk about the timeline, 9:00am to 3:30pm if she's seeing him after 3:30pm that's not a significant Alibi witness? No, and it's certainly not how he portrayed it, as this kind of crucial person.
- [60:33]
B
What about the music store owners?
- [60:35]
A
Oh, this is where this gets really rich. So they're a married couple. They run a music store in Escanaba, Michigan, and they regularly had Kenzoo come in for music lessons. So they knew him and they had no music lessons scheduled for him for November 5th, but he had one for November 6th. Now it's Karen and Jim Dombrowski. Jim Dombrowski told police he remembered that Kenzou came in and helped him fix a door in the shop on a Saturday. Again, the day of the murder was a Wednesday. So this is what Karen testified to at trial, quote, and this is about Kenzu calling her up and basically trying to push her into changing their alibi story. Quote. He was real nice. He just asked if I remembered him coming in on a Wednesday the 5th. And I said I didn't remember. And he said, don't you remember? I came in and fixed the door. I was working with Jim fixing a door. Your door wasn't working at the time. And I apologized because I, you know, I liked him. And I said, I just didn't remember. I'd like to help him, but I didn't remember him coming in because our door had been broken a long time and I didn't want to commit that I had seen him on that day, end quote. So her husband emphatically remembers it's Saturday, and this other guy saying, no, Karen, don't you remember? It was a Wednesday the 5th. That's not suspicious at all. Obviously, other alibi witnesses who come up in the police file, again, it's hard to know what to do. I think some of these may be referring to at least people he was saying he was, like, going to their houses 1. And some of them may be duplicates. So I apologize if that's the case. It's just, again, it's hard with the redactions. One supposed alibi witness said he only saw Kenzie that day after 3:30pm Again, which doesn't matter. Another alibi witness said that Kenzou came to his house at 6:30pm and also called him later to try to get him to give an alibi. Okay. Another alibi witness, who is the son of an attorney, said that Kenzu called him on November 8 and wanted to know if he had heard about his involvement in a murder case and that that guy says he saw him by the treasure chest store at around 4pm which again, doesn't matter. Another Alibi witness thought he saw Kenzo at 3:15, but then later said, actually it may have been as late as 3:45pm Another alibi witness said he never saw the suspect on November 5th. A second alibi witness said he never saw the suspect on November 5th. And then we have the karate shop people. So let's talk about them.
- [62:56]
B
Let's talk about the karate shop people.
- [62:58]
A
Let's go. Let's go to the gym. These. These witnesses are Kathleen Dyer, Mark Sherman, and John Manali. Manali was the one who owned this karate studio.
- [63:12]
B
So usually, of course, a person's memory of an event is better the more recent it is. These people's memories allegedly got better with time. At first, none of those witnesses could remember what day they saw Mr. Kenzo at the karate studio. Was it the Wednesday of the murder or another Wednesday or another day of the week altogether? Who's to say? But as time passed, their memories did not get worse, as you would expect. Instead, again, they get better. They worked together to try to sharpen their memories, and they had some help. They had some help from Mr. Kinzu.
- [63:50]
A
Yep. So, okay, where do we even begin with this? I guess it starts with Manali. Right. And this is some testimony that came out of trial. Do you want to be Manali? And I'll be, I'm assuming, one of the attorneys.
- [64:07]
B
Okay.
- [64:08]
A
I don't know if I'm Cleland or Dean, but either way, do you want to start off with that?
- [64:15]
B
Okay. Well, at the time, I hadn't given it any prior thought. I had no time to really think about it on my own. And at the time, I was very unsure. I thought he was either there on a Monday or a Tuesday or a Tuesday or a Wednesday without being able to think about it or to talk to anybody else who was there at the time. I couldn't be sure.
- [64:34]
A
And so I take it the police weren't there on November 5th. It was some time after that that they interviewed you.
- [64:40]
B
Yes, it was. It was a month or two afterwards.
- [64:43]
A
And you gave him a statement. Is that correct?
- [64:45]
B
Yes, I did.
- [64:45]
A
And you told him then, basically, you.
- [64:48]
B
Weren'T sure at that time? I couldn't honestly say that I knew for sure.
- [64:55]
A
Oh, my God. Yeah.
- [64:56]
B
So a police officer witnesses Kenzo called Minali after the arrest, and his perspective was, it seemed to him like Manali was not agreeing that November 5th was the day that he saw Kinzu at the studio. He says Kinzu kept on saying things like, no, no, it wasn't Thursday. It was Wednesday. And I think this is an obvious point, but I'm going to make it because it's one that seems to have eluded the great minds on team Kinzu. When Mr. Kinzu interferes with a witness like that, it taints that witness. Manali only recalled that Kinzu was there on a particular day after Mr. Kinzu told him that. And so because of that, I think it would be foolish. Foolish to lend much credence to Mr. Minali's testimony.
- [65:51]
A
And I just want to say something. And it gets worse, but I just want to say something. I think these witnesses were probably just trying to be helpful. And there's a tendency, I think, with people where it's like, I have to answer the question. I need to come up with an answer. You know, I can't just be unsure of something. I have to know. And the thing is, if some. If you don't remember something, you don't remember something. Trying to conjure up images and sensations and whatnot past a certain point goes from trying to remember something to almost inserting the memories you want to have into your brain. And that's not helpful. Nor is it helpful to collude with other possible witnesses to get your story straight again. I understand why they did this, because they were like, oh, let's all figure it out. But the thing is, if you ever find yourself in a situation, anything like this, don't do this. It's not helpful. It's okay to say, I don't remember. It doesn't make you dumb or bad. It just. Then you don't remember, and you're just being honest about that.
- [66:51]
B
So Mr. Minali, his testimony is tainted by Mr. Kenzoo. And then Mr. Minali then turns around and taints another witness. This is Kathleen Dyer. Ms. Dyer testified she saw Kinzu at the karate studio in Escanaba around noon on the day of the murder. She gives the police that information months later and told them that the fall of 1986 had been a very hectic time in her life. She did not get a call from Mr. Kinzer, but she heard from Mr. Minali. In this case, I will be asking the questions, and Anya will be Kathleen Dyer.
- [67:28]
A
Yes.
- [67:29]
B
Quote, did there come an occasion when Mr. John Minnelli called you and talked to you about the this?
- [67:35]
A
Yes.
- [67:35]
B
What was the purpose of you talking to each other?
- [67:38]
A
John Manali had been approached by someone involved with the investigation. I believe he could not recall precisely if he had seen Temujin Kenzu on that day. He called me and asked. This is the conversation. He said, kathy Hi, yes, this is John Manali, which was unusual because he doesn't ever call me. He said, do you remember seeing Temujin Kenzu in here? I said, yes. He said, do you remember what day? I said, well, I don't know, you know, because I didn't know what this was all about. I said, I only come in on Mondays and Wednesday. And he said, oh, that's right. And that Monday you didn't come in. Okay, so let's. Now we're. I'm not Kathleen Dyer anymore. We're going to talk about it.
- [68:17]
B
So the implicit suggestion there from Mr. Minali is that Kinzu had to have been in the studio only on one particular week. So therefore, if Dyer saw him and on that week, she was only there on Wednesday the 5th, then that had to be the day that Kinzu was there. They didn't seem to consider the rather obvious fact that Mr. Kinzu could have been in the studio on another week or another Wednesday.
- [68:42]
A
It's like, I want to clear. I'm not saying Manali was manipulating her. I don't think he was. I think this is all inadvertent, and I'm sure these people were very well intentioned.
- [68:51]
B
I think he was manipulating her, but it was inadvertent.
- [68:53]
A
Inadvertent. He was manipulating. But it's still like, when I'm like, hey, Kevin, like, if I. If I really don't want Kevin to say, let's go out for pizza. Do you want chicken or beef? And like, those are the two options, and you get to pick one. It's like, I'm. I'm already taking everything else off the board. Oh, it can't be chicken, so it's got to be beef. We're like, the. This is not. This is how you end up getting people confused and getting people to plant wrong memories. And it's almost like. It's almost like these karate witnesses saw it as a mission to figure out, oh, yeah, it was that Wednesday. It was almost like that was the goal to be like, yes, November 5th. That was it. Because that's what we're being asked about. And it's like they. They misunderstand that. Like, if you don't remember, it's okay to just say, I don't remember. I don't recall seeing him. Or I was. I was so busy at that time.
- [69:42]
B
And it's months later, and under some great cross examination by prosecutor Cleland, Kathleen Dyer even says that back then, one Wednesday was very much like any other Wednesday. So how could she be certain that she had seen Kinsey on Wednesday, November 5th, instead of Wednesday, October 29th.
- [70:01]
A
And I want to note something because this is in the police files, too. November 5, 1986, was not just another Wednesday. November 5, 1986, was the day of the Michigan gubernatorial election. It was election Day. Okay. Now, Dyer said she didn't vote, and that's fine. Well, I mean, you should vote. Everyone should vote. But she. She didn't vote, so. But she didn't tie. Like they're asking her, do you. Do you have any associations between this and Election Day or anything like that? No, no, no, I don't. I don't connect those two events in my mind at all. Doesn't that seem a bit odd? Like, you know, it's a whole day where that's going to be in the news, it's going to be on the radio. It's. I mean, like, again, she may just be very politically unconnected. And so I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but, like, it's not like she was able to come back to police and say, actually, yeah, I remember I saw him on election day or something that would, like, tie it in your mind, like a holiday or. Or a specific day or my birthday or something like that. This is just. It's just floating in the air for her. She doesn't make any connection between that at all. That strikes me as a problem.
- [71:05]
B
Tell us about the final karate shop witness, Mr. Mark Sherman.
- [71:10]
A
Okay, so this is another. This is another issue because, you know, we talked about how Kenzu corrupted Manali. The Manali corrupts Dyer in terms of their statements. Dyer then brings in Sherman. Mark Sherman. And Sherman did not see Ken you on the day of the murder, but he saw him the day before the murder. But he is basically used as an anchoring point for Dyer's memory. So she says she's so sure about what she's saying because there's a Sherman. And Sherman says, the day before, I guess, or he basically, he left early that day because he had to go to a parent teacher conference. So she's like, I know that. It was like she's linking it to that event. Does that make sense? Yeah, so. And again, people say, oh, that's so specific. But again, what. I. I don't think see anything specific. I see three people, none of whom saw anything particularly valuable, two of whom seem like they're trying to come up with something for the fifth, and who end up just confusing themselves and others. And again, I. I think with all that's all sincerity. And that's not intentional. I think this is just what happens sometimes. But your initial reaction is, I don't remember, I don't recall anything like that. And then your day later, like, oh, wait, but I think Sherman did this. That means this. Oh, but I, I don't, you know, I like it. It just, it's useless. These are not good witnesses. They were torn apart on cross examination. Not in a mean way, but when you look at the cross examination, it was pretty brutal. And it really made them look like they didn't know what they were talking about and they were kind of making it up. Not making it up on purpose, not making it up to try to do anything for Kenzu. I don't think Kenzu threatened them. I don't think Kenzoo did anything, you know, like said, oh, you have to say this, except although he was brow beating Manali, apparently. But I, I, I do think that they ended up just kind of going down this rabbit hole and they should be regarded with suspicion for that.
- [73:11]
B
Yes.
- [73:13]
A
All right, so let's talk about some other claims from Kenzie that I think are just important to note in, in his initial talks with police, he sort of says he never met Scott, never had words with him, nothing. But then in the same conversation later, does admit too that they ran into each other and had a stare down. So that's kind of two different things. And then he also talks about how after his breakup with Crystal, he never went back to Port Huron since the end of June, halfway through July. Witnesses place him at this kind of area Halloween party, though. So those are two things. In addition, in order to interview a lot of these Escanaba witnesses and do you know the mobile station, the police officers looking into this case, they, they ended up going up there. So they did a test. They left Escanaba at 1pm they got back to Port Huron at 7.40pm and they talked about how they stopped for gasoline, they ate, they used the restroom. They had a mileage of about 425 miles. And they said they felt based on that it was very possible to make the trip in six to six and a half hours. So it's just something to note. It's not like they just were like, you know, they experimented. So let's talk about the evidence in the case.
- [74:26]
B
Let's do it.
- [74:28]
A
This is the evidence that we feel is the most crucial, and it's what was said in court, and it's what we feel proves Kenzu guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So witness Richard Krueger he identifies Kenzu as the man he saw slinking around the community college parking lots before Scott was murdered. He talks about the green army jacket. He's sure it was Kenzu. He picked him out of a photo lineup and he also identifies him at trial. In court, he was not physically comfortable enough to identify him at an in person lineup and said, everyone looks so similar. But in those other two identifications, he said, yes. And frankly, if you want to make a big deal about the in person lineup, Kenzu's defense team had the chance to cross examine him over it. The jury still found this man compelling. He found, they found his identification compelling and I can understand why. Renee Gobind. He again identified Temujin Kenzu as the man he saw driving away from the murder scene. He got a very good look at the driver. He saw the green army jacket. He's sure it was Kenzu. Days after the murders, there was a photo lineup, five pictures. Gobind immediately identifies Kenzo. Two weeks later, there's a live lineup. He immediately identifies Kenzu. Kenzu is the second person in a lineup of six. They get to the second person, that's him, that's him. And at court he testified, quote, it wasn't someone that resembled him, it was him, end quote. This guy is certain. He's been saying that, you know, identifies him in every instance. Very strong witness, very strong witness identification. There's Kathleen Ballard. She talks about how she didn't get as good a look. But Temujin Kenzu certainly is consistent with what she saw. Now, she's not going to overreach and say she saw something she didn't, which is good. I commend her for that. But she's saying, yeah, that, that fits. Janice K. Talks about the green army jacket. She is able to kind of connect this to the green army jacket later found in Kenzo's trunk when he was arrested in Troy, Michigan. So she's, again, not everyone's saying it's literally him, but they're, they're giving evidence that still is crucial one key element. So those are the witness statements that I feel are the most important. Another thing that came up at trial were Temujin Kenzie's threats against Scott Macklem. And those mostly came in through the testimony of Crystal. So Crystal talked about how Kenzou said he would hurt Scott and her family. And he, he would, he would frequently basically say he was going to kill Scott because he saw Scott as a threat. And that that's something where the jury could hear her and evaluate her testimony and see whether they thought it was credible or not. Another thing that Crystal brought in was the gun. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
- [77:24]
B
Well, Crystal offered some testimony that Mr. Kinzu had owned a gun similar to the one that was used to kill Scott. That gun was not found amongst Mr. Kinzu's possessions.
- [77:41]
A
Yep. In addition to that, Crystal also brought us through her testimony, some pretty incriminating statements from Kenzu. And these were predominantly made on November 13, 1986, after the murder of Scott.
- [77:59]
B
These are statements made in a phone call. And these statements, even though the phone call was to Crystal, we should note that there was also a police officer listening in on the call. So we don't just have Crystal's word for these statements.
- [78:14]
A
Yes, there was also a police officer. So Kenzou at one point asked. Kenzou was almost calling to seemingly get to know what Crystal knew. And what the police officer described was what that when she was compliant with Kenzou, he was nice to her and almost like kind of conciliatory of like, maybe we can get back together. And when he. When she was maybe giving it back to him a little bit or maybe expressing some suspicion of him, then he was more abusive. So what the. So what. What Kenzie said was that at one point he asked Crystal if Scott Macklin was shot. She said she didn't know. Then he asked. Then he noted that his. His. One of his. I think Michelle was pregnant. Is that right? One of his women. One of the women he was with was pregnant and that they were engaged to be married. Crystal replied that she had been engaged to Macklem. And then this is what Kenzou said to that you caused me a problem, so I took care of it, end quote. What could that refer to? In addition, Kenzou told Crystal that he was in Escanaba on the day of the murder, but he also said that he. That if he flew, he could have been to Port Huron in just a couple of hours. So again, he's bringing up the weird flight stuff. If you want to get upset with somebody for that being inserted into the case, you should note that that was coming from him.
- [79:38]
B
Yeah, you should be upset with Mr. Kinzu. One of many reasons why people should be upset with Mr. Kenzo.
- [79:43]
A
Kenzo also asked Crystal at one point, quote, well, where did he get shot? In the parking lot, end quote. And Crystal said she did not know. Again, what's with this is he did the same thing in a call with police officers where he said, were they. Was he shot in A parking lot or a house. In addition, he was. He what? He said what kind of dam. He wanted to know what kind of, quote, damage was done to Macklem. And he asked, quote, what was he shot in the back or the rib cage? End quote. It again, it's just weird. Kenzou also was apparently upset that the story wasn't getting any media coverage. That was something that was important to him, I guess, as somebody who didn't kill the guy. Right. Like, she's worried about the media coverage. Crystal at one point asked him about all the threats that Kenzu gave her, and he responded, quote, I haven't threatened you since October. I haven't talked to you since October. Last time I threatened you was in October, end quote.
- [80:39]
B
And again, this is in November.
- [80:40]
A
This is in November. So, like, he's acknowledging that he threatened her. And then additionally, the police officer heard Temkenzu say, quote, look, I didn't own the murder weapon, and they're never going to find it, nor are they going to find the car. And, quote, I didn't own a car like that. They're never going to find the car, end quote. How would you know they're never going to find the murder weapon or the car if you had nothing to do with it? That's not something that somebody who's innocent says. It just isn't. You would be like, I don't know what happened. I don't have any statement about the murder weapon or the car. Why is. It's bizarre. I believe the police officer with Crystal was David hall, right?
- [81:22]
B
I believe so.
- [81:24]
A
So. But that's not the only incriminating statement this man made. Do you want to talk about Joplin?
- [81:31]
B
Yes. He was temporarily placed in a cell with a guy named Joplin. Joplin testified that he heard Kinzu make a variety of incriminating statements. Joplin came forward with this information shortly before the trial.
- [81:47]
A
And this guy's Philip Joplin.
- [81:49]
B
Phillip Joplin. I will read Joplin's words. You will read the questions from the attorney?
- [81:56]
A
Sure.
- [81:56]
B
Quote, kinzu said he had an airtight alibi. You know, he had witnesses. He even went into detail on what some of this stuff was.
- [82:05]
A
And did he, at any given point in this conversation, talk about the details of the parking lot, the community college, and the shooting itself?
- [82:12]
B
One statement he made about that.
- [82:14]
A
And what did that deal with? That stuck out in your mind?
- [82:17]
B
You want to know what he said?
- [82:18]
A
Yes.
- [82:19]
B
He said that when he shot this guy, he screamed, end quote. And as we have established, witnesses said that Mr. Macklem Scott Macklem did indeed scream when he was shot.
- [82:30]
A
When. And we can go more. And people have raised issues with the Joplin stuff, but, I mean, we'll go more into that later. But, yeah, it's a pretty strong abundance of incriminating statements combined with everything else.
- [82:47]
B
Combined, for example, with incriminating actions. We've already enumerated this. Mr. Kenzoo calling around the witnesses, trying to taint their testimony to create an alibi for himself. Is that something an innocent person does? And we should note that the jury picked up on this, because this is not stuff that Ani and I discovered. This is stuff that was actually testified to at the trial. And the jury heard this. They did not like this, and they said so afterwards. Mr. Kenzie would also attempt to throw off lineups by shaving. These are not things an innocent person does.
- [83:25]
A
I'm gonna throw something out there, too. And we went through Kenzie's alleged witnesses and what he said he did that day. And I just asked people who are still on the fence or who are even perhaps on Team Kenzu, if any other case there was a suspect who said, here's what I did all day. And virtually all of those people said, no, that's a lie. Would. Would that make an impact either way for you? I mean, I feel like it would. I feel like it certainly would. I don't know why this guy gets a passion. And I don't know why these karate witnesses are touted out as some big thing, because they are clearly damaged.
- [84:01]
B
They're.
- [84:02]
A
They're tainted. What they say is problematic. And again. And then that's in the context of. And everybody else is like, no, he was pressuring me to say one thing, but that's not what happened. So I. I just ask, like, insert any other defendant, insert any other suspect, insert any other perpetrator in that situation. And say they have. A bunch of people are saying, they said they saw me, but I didn't see them. Like, I think we're gonna be having a different. You know, I think that's gonna probably be something that is taken pretty seriously.
- [84:31]
B
Anya. It mystifies me. It mystifies me the fact that there are people out there who are so completely under the sway of this man. Do they believe anything they. He says and even sacrifice relationships with people in order to spread the good word of Temujin Kinzu and Team Kinzu around the Internet. It mystifies me. This man has no charisma that I'm aware of. He is a liar. He is a violent thug. He is a rapist. He is a murderer. He does not deserve anyone's support, and he certainly doesn't deserve the blind worship I see by some of the most prominent members of Team Kinzu.
- [85:13]
A
But even if we're taking that out of it, it just, it's like, I mean, pop Bryan Coburger into this situation and he says, I did this and that and this and that, and everyone's like, no, he didn't. I think, you know, people are going to say, I don't know about that.
- [85:25]
B
Yeah, obviously, obviously a lot of the people with the blind support for Team Kenzoo, it's. It's irrational, it's baffling, it mystifies and to some degree angers me. But we can move on.
- [85:39]
A
I want to. I want to kind of like sum up the evidence, maybe kind of do a bit of a recipe and sort of see, you know, this is where the jury came down. So you have one guy identifying Temujin Kenzu as the person he saw skulking around the approximate area of the crime scene about an hour before the murder. You have another person identifying Temujin Kenzie as the guy driving away from the murder. You have another person identifying, you know, describing the clothing you were found to have right after the murder is matching what they saw a person wearing. You have, like, people testifying to you, threatening the victim a lot. You have witnesses who say the victim was being threatened. You have the motive of being obsessed with Crystal and essentially wanting to wreck her or prevent her from leaving you or prevent her from raising her child with another man. You have a bunch of incriminating statements to Crystal and to Philip Joplin. And you have calling around to get an alibi. That's a solid recipe for conviction. That's a solid conviction right there. And that's what the jury said.
- [86:52]
B
Yes. This man is obviously guilty. You want to move on to the.
- [86:56]
A
Next section, I want to go into the non trial information that sways you and me personally.
- [87:00]
B
Okay?
- [87:01]
A
And now listen, that's what. What we. What we just discussed was what the jury heard. We feel based on what they heard, we would both certainly vote to convict. And we would hope the information we just shared would make it clear why the jurors voted unanimously to convict. Even if you personally wouldn't or if you would. I mean, either way, now you know why. But we're not on a jury. We are a podcast. They were limited in what they could consider and what they could talk about when weighing his guilt or innocence. And that's proper. That's how our system works. Rules of evidence are strict and important. We are not bound by those. We're not going to act like we're bound by those. We can look at other things and find a more holistic picture of who Temujin Kenzu is. And we do want to look at a few other things. And these are mostly things. And I mean, some of this came in, but most of this did not. So let's talk about Kenzu's history of violence. We have the violent threats against Crystal.
- [87:53]
B
We have rapes against Crystal.
- [87:55]
A
He raped Crystal multiple times. He beat her. He was violent against her. But she was not the only woman who suffered at his hands.
- [88:03]
B
Violent threats against a woman we call D. Threats against a person we call lc. Violence against lc Violent threats against Dee's parents. Violence against Michelle. Violence against a woman named S. Violence against his wife, G. Threats against his wife G. Violence against his daughter Laina. Violence against G's mother's boyfriend. Violence against G's new boyfriend. Violent threats against Rain Go Bind threw steel rod at a woman he was having an affair with. Threats against Arnel. Started to push around an alibi witness violence against animals, didn't he? Yeah, this is.
- [88:36]
A
Yeah, basically, if you're a man, woman, baby animal, and you're near Temajinkenzu, watch out. If you do something he doesn't like or even just maybe to show you whose boss he's going to be violent or threatening. These are things that were. Were frequently coming up in our reporting. And it was shocking to us the degree to which none of this was reporting on. He continues to make threats against people from behind bars. Actually, we're, we're, we've been on the receiving end of that.
- [89:07]
B
We'll discuss that more later.
- [89:09]
A
Yeah, so this is a guy who uses threats and violence to get what he wants. That's a strategy for him. It's not impulsive. It's not impulsiveness. It is just a strategy. It's a strategic choice because he learned early on he was a bully as a child.
- [89:25]
B
And he learned it worked.
- [89:26]
A
And he learned it worked. And if he could threaten people, you know, threaten to do violence, threaten to kill or do violence or kill, he'll get what he wants. That's what he learned early in life. So let's talk about some things that are in character for Temajinkenzu, according to multiple people, people who do not know each other. Rape, emotional abuse, psychological abuse. Lying, stealing. Forcing women to run charitable scams in order to bring him an income. Threatening people with Guns, stalking, claiming to people that he is surveilling them. Claiming to people that he is listening devices and is listening to them. Claiming to people that he's part of a shadowy ninja organization. Death threats, pointing weapons at people, attacking people with weapons, beating people and forcing suicide attempts. All of these things have happened multiple times and have been documented multiple times. And this is not just people who, if you want to look at it and say, well, maybe he was just kind of mean to his girlfriends and they all ganged up on him. I'm talking. There's people who say things who do not have a bone to pick. Here's a good example. The landlady, when speaking to police, talked about how neighbors would complain that Kenzie was constantly beating up a woman at his house. That's something that these neighbors don't have a dog in the race. They're, they don't, they don't have a bone to pick and they're coming and saying, yeah, he's constantly beating a woman in there.
- [90:43]
B
Longtime friend of Mr. Kenzie said that he was a very violent person and made a lot of threats which he was capable of carrying out. This friend also indicated he believed Mr. Kinzu was capable of killing a person. And at one point, this friend even ran away from Mr. Kinzu in the middle of the night just to get away.
- [91:02]
A
That guy's dad said that Kenzie was a bad kid and a bully, that he'd known his son for years and that he was always like this and that he'd even threatened his child into staying friends with him. If you leave me, I'll kill you. What does that sound familiar? Like, why does that sound so familiar with Crystal? You know, this is how we, how he is. He threatened to come kill them in the middle of the night. They sat up, they got up, they sat there with guns, waiting for this guy's childhood friend to come in and kill them. This is his childhood friend. This isn't a woman, this isn't a girlfriend. This is somebody who was like buddies with him when he was a kid, who then got basically strung along for years out of fear. Yeah. So, you know, this isn't isolated. One thing that's been infuriating to see in the coverage is that Crystal has often been maligned and Temujin Kenzu is, you know, very much the person who's instigated this, but she's been made out to be some over imaginative person who watched too many ninja movies and got the idea that just because Temujin Kenzie was into Martial arts, that he was a ninja. Wow, what an idiot. You know, like, she obviously isn't very sophisticated if she thought that. But it's not just from Crystal. Multiple women who were with him talked about him telling them that he was part of some shadowy ninja organization. That's what he told women. That's how he controlled them, with fear. And they had a. I mean, I don't think a lot of them believed him necessarily, but they had the kind of like, the idea of like, well, maybe he knows people who will come kill me. And he told them he was ninjas. Neighbors were telling the landlady he's doing all these weird karate moves and martial arts weapons stuff out in the yard, in public. It's weird. He's got all this paraphernalia. They're telling the police that. You know, again, we bring this up not because it's necessarily relevant to the trial, but because Crystal's testimony was called into question and has been called into question for years because people say, this is so ridiculous. I can't believe this. Multiple people corroborate her stories. Multiple women had the same thing. Multiple women were shown what Kenzou purported to be listening devices and told that they were being watched and that the council would come from them. This is. This is happening again and again and again and again. So it's not a crazy thing that Crystal said. It's par for the course for Kenzu. So it's an issue because Team Kenzu has made an issue by attacking Crystal's credibility. But what Crystal says is spot on with what other women say.
- [93:39]
B
Exactly.
- [93:40]
A
The testimony about guns.
- [93:42]
B
Tell us about that.
- [93:43]
A
Temajin Kenzu has claimed, oh, I don't own guns. No one found the murder weapon. I didn't even. I wasn't even a gun guy. But let's. But let's look at he. That's not. That's just not true. I mean, like, that's simply a lie. We have G, in her interview with us, talking about how he, like, shot like, a BB gun at her in order to make her train better. So he's certainly capable of at least shooting people with a BB gun. A woman named L.C. testified that when they were living together, he had this big duffel bag that he told her was full of guns, and she felt through it and felt the barrel of a long gun. She didn't see the gun, but he made sure that she was able to feel it. In his own words, he's claimed that he owned a pistol.45 caliber pistol, a.22 caliber rifle and air pistols. So I don't know where this modern day thing about him never owning guns or not being a gun guy ever even comes from. In the police reports, it's very clear that he's owned guns. The landlady who was renting to him witnessed an incident. Kenzou confronted a guy who crashed into their fence or a nearby fence. And he told her, I responded to that situation carrying a gun. And she said, we don't run around with guns out here. Don't do that. And he's like, okay, sorry. The witness who crashed into the fence told police that a guy came out Kenzu and threatened him with a revolver. And the guy said, what are you gonna do, shoot me for hitting a fence?
- [95:06]
B
Crystal talked in court about an occasion when her sister and her sister's boyfriend came over to Kinzu's residence where Crystal was trying to get her to come home. And Mr. Kinzu had a gun with a long type of large barrel, a bead at the end of it for eyesight. And he was, he, he wanted to threaten Crystal's sister with this. And of course that describes the type of gun that killed Scott. A shotgun. So it puts something very close to the description of the murder weapon literally in the hands of Mr. Temujin Kinzu.
- [95:49]
A
Yeah. So you have all of that and then you have the cars.
- [95:53]
B
Tell us about the cars.
- [95:55]
A
So Kenzu was documented, and this was documented by multiple women who'd been with him, multiple witnesses who interacted with him. He was always taking people's car keys. He was always trading cars, switching cars, borrowing cars. He was always wanting Crystal's car. She testified to this. He was taking away her car keys so she couldn't leave. He was borrowing her car. There was, we, we talked about an incident where she tried to get her keys back with the help of a car co worker. And that guy got screamed at by Kenzie, was really weird about cars. In addition to that, Scott himself. Scott Macklin tracked down this theory that Kenzoo is switching up license plates. Right. He's, he's, he's switching them up. He's using it to confuse people so people don't know what he's driving it. And like that's backed up when he, when Scott went to this guy's house, he saw a bunch of different cars. An Opal, an Oldsmobile, a motorcycle. Kenzie's neighbors report him having two big Honda motorcycles, a. Some other, other motorcycle. A Opal Manta, reddish brown or tan in color. A bluish silver Mercury marquee. A late 60s pickup, maybe a Ford that was turned into a homemade camper. People told the landlady he's got all these vehicles, he's got all these bikers hanging around, scruffy looking types of. And his longtime friends say he was always doing this too. He's borrowing cars, changing cars, making his girlfriends give them their cars. And yeah, I mean, so, so let's go into that because the car, I mean, he is correct. Temujin Kenzu, in his conversation with Crystal was correct. The murder weapon was never found, nor was the getaway car. So what do we think about that? Well, I think we can all imagine it's pretty easy to get rid of a gun, right? Toss it somewhere. Yeah, throw it in Lake Michigan, throw it in Lake Huron rather. But when it comes to a car that's harder to get rid of. So how do you get rid of that? Well, one thing you can do is put an expired plate on it and hope you don't get pulled over and right off with that, switch out the plates. That's something that Scott Macklin believed this guy was doing and it's also something that's borne out by some evidence. So Renee Gobind, you'll recall, put down the license plate number or what he thought was license plate number. He acknowledged he might get have gotten a letter wrong. And this did not come into trial because Renee Gobind, we'll go into this later. He had himself hypnotized right after talking to police. And that's how he came up with a more certain license plate number. But that was not used because you're not supposed to get hypnotized. And that was the correct call by the judge.
- [98:31]
B
Absolutely.
- [98:31]
A
But the plate number he had was registered to an unknown vehicle that police tracked down to a Buick Riviera that had been sold to a Cadillac dealer located in Warren, Michigan. And the records of that sale dated back to May 1985. And when police responded to the Cadillac dealer being like, hey, what's up with this Buick Riviera? They said that, you know, we were supposed to destroy that plate. We normally destroy the plates they take in, but we actually end up just dumping some of them in the trash. So we have no way to know whether that plate was actually destroyed or whether we just dumped it in the trash. So that is to say, if it's just dumped in the trash, it seems very possible, even likely, that a guy who is believed to be switching around license plates gets a plate, swaps it out for a murder and then gets Rid of it. And the car goes back to whoever he borrowed or threatened or whatever happened with that.
- [99:30]
B
Talk about the attempts to threaten alibi witnesses.
- [99:33]
A
So on December 17, 1986, after the murders, police get a phone call from the mother of a woman we called D. This was a woman who was with Kenzu when he was arrested in Troy. This lady got a call from her daughter D at 1:30am and then 9:30am Dee was telling her that she had been threatened, that Kenzu expected her to provide an alibi, that he was 700 miles away at the time of the murder. And in order to get that alibi from her, he threatened to kill her parents. Both parents were. Had also previously been threatened by Kenzo in April of 1986. Threatened to kill them. So. So is that something an innocent man does?
- [100:12]
B
Yeah. First of all, this is a man using threats of violence to try to control people, which is what he's done throughout his whole sorry, pathetic excuse for a life. And also, we see him threatening a person to get an alibi. And if the story he told police about his whereabouts on the day of the murder is true, there should have been plenty of witnesses. Why would you need to threaten people to give you an alibi if you are an innocent person and you saw as many people as Mr. Kinzu claims he saw that day? The answer is he's a guilty man. And he. He was lying.
- [100:52]
A
I mean, I also want to point something out. Port Huron to Escanaba is like 440 miles by road. Okay? In a straight as the crow flies, it's 300 miles, but otherwise 400. So he, she was clearly not supposed to say he was in Escanaba. So was he in Escanaba? I mean, like, that's the whole thing that they go into nowadays. Oh, my God. He was an Escanaba. All these people saw him there. Except no, they didn't. But is he now also somewhere else? Like, that's it. This is. People act like. Well, I mean, I, I hear this excuse. It's very much like the boys will be boys excuse, but just specifically for him, that's Kenzu being Kenzu, okay? He. Oh, he's just an impetuous lad who likes to threaten people to get what he wants. But that doesn't mean he's guilty. Yeah, but then why is he having her say he's somewhere that's not Escanaba? It's not like he's eating. Even adding her to that roster. He's, he's, he's. Now we're Somewhere else. It's like Escanaba didn't work out. All these people blew me off. So now I need you to put me somewhere else.
- [101:53]
B
Kinzu always has people who are willing to lie for him. Maybe willing to lie isn't the right word because some of these people are victims of abuse. These are people he's scared, people who are responding to threats. And then there's people like Michelle. Remember right out of the gate, the first time she talked to police in connection to this crime, she lied to them. She gave them a totally inaccurate physical description of Kinsey. Do you remember that?
- [102:25]
A
I remember that she's immediately trying to obfuscate for him. And, and I don't, I, I can't say you should not lie and you should not protect people like this. But I also understand Michelle was the victim of some pretty severe emotional, psychological, and physical abuse, and I imagine other forms of abuse.
- [102:45]
B
But with that said, her credibility is very challenged on this point.
- [102:50]
A
Oh, she has no credibility on this point. I, I, I think she absolutely deserves our sympathy and our understanding. And I certainly hope she, as a person is doing well in healing and. But there is no reason to take her seriously as somebody as a witness in this case, because she's made it clear that she's terrified of this man and she will lie for him. Even today, I think people are still scared of him. I think they think he might get out and he will come kill them if they do not do what he wants.
- [103:14]
B
There's no. People have told us that. Yeah, no, people have literally told us that.
- [103:17]
A
Yeah.
- [103:18]
B
I mean, but despite that, there's people who think he's some kind of a groovy guy who wouldn't it be great if he gets out because then he can help us all. What a wonderful, groovy guy. He has a whole team around him who are largely not victims of him. They are, to use the old term, useful idiots.
- [103:37]
A
Yes.
- [103:38]
B
And they believe whatever nonsense he puts out. As I've said, they sacrifice other relationships for the sake of this man, for the sake of this lying thug rapist. That's all important. They use critical thinking in other cases, but not in this case.
- [103:55]
A
I would just also say that when it comes to him being able to get rid of a car or, you know, make sure the car is never found or make sure a gun is never found, which, again, he said would happen. So, I mean, he was right on that count. And, and we have people like those three guys in the Taco Bell parking lot and whoever was helping him come and Stalk Scott. Like he seemed to have surrounded himself with a group of loser males at all times. It would not be surprising to me if they were also helping him. And we'll probably never hear from them because they don't want to be involved in this. I, I, I guess I'm just like, he had a team, he had the women he was threatening, he had men he was probably threatening, and then men who just thought he was cool. And that's, you know, that's unfortunately still the case.
- [104:40]
B
He's, he still has some losing males around him. Yeah, it's, it's, should we talk about Kim Z's personality?
- [104:45]
A
Yeah, this is, this is where like, you know, like, again, this is non trial information. No one should be convicted based on their terrible personality. Okay. Again, this is stuff that we as adults who are talking about someone who's been convicted and has been incarcerated for years, we're allowed to have an opinion on. It doesn't mean that all of this could be true. And if there was nothing tying him to the crime, then I would say, well, you can't convict someone based on that. But I think it's important to note this in the context. So anyone who says that Temujin Kenzu is incapable of a murder like this is completely fooling themselves or they just have not studied the available information with an open mind. When people talk about how he's a very nice guy, he's very sweet, he's very charismatic, he's very kind. That's not true. He, he may be kind to people who he thinks might serve him, but he is extremely cruel to many, many people, even people who like, have a chance to help him and they don't do quite what he wants or in the timeline that he wants, he will lash out. He is a violent person. He has a history of hurting people physically. Not, not yelling, not screaming, not being mean to them, hitting them, punching them, going at them with weapons. He beat his pregnant wife, a woman pregnant with his daughter, and also attacked his infant daughter in one instance. He hit her on the head. He was blowing in her face. He's been known to do horrible things to cats and animals, women, men and. Yeah, that's right. He doesn't only target women and children. He also goes after men that he thinks are getting in between him and his children or his women. And he, he attacked G's boyfriend. As, as was documented in court records. He attacked G told us about an incident where he attacked her mother's boyfriend after they were, you know, G and him were kicked out of her mom's house. And then there was some scuffle over the moving and he, he sent her, her mother's boyfriend, into the hospital. So he, he's, he'll, he'll do anything, you know, and he'll also use threats to control people in the sense that he'll say, I'll go after your family, I'll go after people you love. That's what he told Crystal. And he fulfilled that promise. Unfortunately. Anyone who says he's a well adjusted person who couldn't have done this, he has antisocial personality disorder. And listen, any sort of issue like, or disorder like that, like, you know, you hope that people get treatment. But in his case, he doesn't seem to think anything's wrong with him. He's denied that diagnosis many times, but exists. Anyone who says he's too disorganized or impulsive to pull this off. I want to point something out. I understand when you look at some of his individual actions that it can look like a moment of explosive, impulsive anger and that prompts vicious behavior. I understand that. I think we often tend to think of anger as something that's just kind of off the cuff and explosive. The thing you have to understand about Temujin Kenzu, if you look at him as a whole, as a person, he's always angry. That's like a white hot burning anger inside of him. He's furious at the world. No one is as good as him. No one is good enough for him. No one's doing what he needs them to do. And that has prompted him to make a lot of bad decisions in his life, including murdering Scott. So it's not a random anger that comes up, flares up and dissipates. It is a constant burning rage inside of him. And when we talk about impulse, impulsiveness, this man ran scams for years. This man had a whole slick operation where he would go, he would hone in on a girl, I say a girl because usually they were in high school. He would bring them into his, for lack of a better term, harem, and he would start sexually abusing them. He would start beating them, he would start forcing them to do things they didn't want to do, like group sex. And then he would put them to work for him and he would put them out on the street with some fake charity thing or they'd have to collect money for him and that's how he ran an income. Like that was his business. That's like how he got money to do things. So when we're talking about someone who's impulsive or incapable of planning or thought, I think something like that actually takes quite a lot of thought. You need to know who to target. You need to know who's not gonna blow the whistle. You need to know how to isolate them.
- [109:18]
B
I think a lot of the people who say he is impulsive and not calculating are not aware of some of the information you just shared.
- [109:28]
A
It's. This is a playbook. What happened to Crystal did not happen in a vacuum. What happened to Scott did not happen to in a vacuum. What happened is that this is a very calculating person who has a track record and a proven modus operandi of abusing and control with those around him in order to get what he wants. And it was successful for years. It worked for him. He thought he was untouchable, that no one would come after him. So yeah, of course it worked. He, he doesn't care about other people. He's not empathetic. He's not a kind or compassionate person. And the way he saw it, he was the master of the universe. Because he was, whatever he did, he could get away with. So let's talk about something before we go on to what we can do to counter this evidence. The trial evidence is paramount. It's significantly more important as far as the case than anything we just discussed in the non trial information section. This is all just extra credit. But it's also not nothing. All of what we just talked about makes it extremely easy to believe in the outcome of this trial. It's not why we would vote to convict. It should not, you know, for the most part, was not allowed and should not be allowed a trial. But I mean, come on, we, this doesn't happen in a vacuum. Let's talk about a section where what we like to do is in order to kind of convey why we think the way we think we wanna. We talked about all the evidence in the case that came out at trial. Now let's see if we can knock that down. What do we need to believe in order to knock this stuff down and come to a different conclusion? Okay, so I guess to start with, we have Crystal. Crystal is a very important witness.
- [111:08]
B
Crystal talked about the threats, being raped, being assaulted. She talked about his motive for the crime. She talked about him having a gun.
- [111:18]
A
She puts a gun, the murder weapon, in Kenzu's hand. She puts motive in his heart. That's what she does for the jury. So Crystal is very important. So there are two options for Crystal and we're going to approach both one, Crystal's a liar. She's a liar.
- [111:35]
B
She made the whole thing up. Anya.
- [111:37]
A
Yeah, she's just a liar. Second, she's not a liar. She really did go through those things. But he's still innocent. So let's talk about the two options. I think for years, Crystal's a Liar was the favorite. This was the popular one. I think people now realize that true crime as a genre is like 70% female listeners and that shit don't play anymore. I think they think that sounds really bad.
- [112:06]
B
Yeah. The idea of saying that Crystal lied about this is repulsive.
- [112:12]
A
It's disgusting.
- [112:14]
B
Crystal very obviously told the truth.
- [112:16]
A
Yeah, let's just. Before we even get into this, like, we've talked to other women who went through the same thing that Crystal did. What Crystal went through was part of a pattern of how he treated women. There's nothing unique about what Crystal went through other than. Other than this is the one murder that we know about that's been linked to him.
- [112:34]
B
So that's one thing you have to consider. So if Crystal is lying, she somehow wove this complicated web of lies that I guess by a happy coincidence perfectly matches similar lies that Kinzu told other women who Crystal had never even met.
- [112:51]
A
Stuff about the ninja council, stuff about surveilling her, beating her, raping her. All of these are things that he did to other women. And you might say, well, you know, maybe those other women just heard about the case later and wanted to get some attention on themselves. First of all, that doesn't like, like I'm not a person where I think we should believe every single accusation. I'm just not. I don't think that's. I don't think that's good. I don't think that's how our system should work. But if you're going to talk about this, these people are in the police files. These women came forward early on and talked about their experience. These women came forward at the commutation hearing years later after not talking about this stuff for years. And Kate, they, they, they are credible. They're credible people. Their stories corroborate one another without them even knowing each other. So, so this is, this is a situation. If she's a liar. You know, one thing people have said that I thought is really disgusting is that she might be lying because she killed Scott Macklem, her fiance. How close really were they? Well, we've talked to their friends. A lot of their friends were friends with, with both of them. Some were more of Scott friends, some were more Crystal friends, but a lot of them knew both of them. And what they said is they were a happy, normal couple. Like there was nothing like, oh, I think maybe Crystal might have done this. She also has an alibi for the murder. This is in the police files. She was in the office with, I believe, Scott's dad working when this happened.
- [114:21]
B
And I, I also want to say the idea that Crystal killed Scott is, if it wasn't such a tragic situation, it's so ludicrous that it would be funny. Instead, it's just offensive. Deeply, deeply offensive. And I also want to say this notion that she may have killed him, this is not something that somebody tried a long time ago and then abandoned. It's still out there. There was a book self published earlier this year and the author includes a section, well, I'm not saying anything, but here's reasons why Crystal might be guilty. So this, this stupid, offensive, disgusting idea is still out there and is still being promulgated by people close to Mr. Kinsey.
- [115:12]
A
And I think it's really important to mention that because I think we have a perception sometimes in our own bubble where there's this idea that like, victim blaming in true crime is on the decline. And to a certain extent that may be true. I think people can't really get away with as much anymore, but people sure make an exception. In the case of Temujin Kenzu, when it came, when it comes to him, it's like, oh, she was, she was raped and brutalized by him. So I mean, obviously she was to blame. She's a liar. I mean, it's really, it's actually kind of disturbing to see how quickly people kind of throw away any sort of like, widespread learnings about, like, how domestic violence works and how rape victims sometimes respond. And they start throwing out things like, well, why did she stay with him? Why didn't she tell anyone? Oh my God. I mean, what is. I want to stress this. The, the prosecutors and the police, who I imagine were like, all male working on this case in the 1980s, responded with more respect and treated this woman with more dignity than a lot of people who, you know, should know better in 2025. That's all I'll say. It's, it's, it's. This is what rape culture looks like. It's, it's basically saying, well, this is inconvenient for my personal views, so I'm going to throw out what I know it. So that's, that's with Crystal.
- [116:26]
B
The other option is, well, Crystal. Crystal wasn't Lying, Anya. But he's still not guilty. So in other words, Mr. Kinzu beat her, he threatened her, he raped her, told her he would kill her family, told her he would kill Scott. He admits knowing that Crystal was pregnant and believing it was his child. And he also happens to own and use the exact same type of gun used to kill Mr. Macklem. But then by just an awful coincidence, Scott just got randomly killed by someone else who was dressed like Mr. Kinzu and using a weapon like Mr. Kinzu's. But it wasn't Mr. Kinzu.
- [117:03]
A
Yeah, and looked exactly like him to the point where people thought that was him.
- [117:07]
B
And with all due respect, that's dumb.
- [117:09]
A
And also, can I just say, like, the idea that all of these women. I just want to stress this again. The idea that Crystal's lying and all these women are lying. I mean, again, what are they? I guess they're just. I guess they're all lying to bring a good man down, right? Is that what it is? I mean, like, come on, like, what are we doing here? It's 2025. Okay, now. Now let's talk about the witnesses. So Crystal was an important witness. Now we're talking about the witnesses who actually saw Kenzo, saw him at the crime scene, or had information that was able to tie him to the crime scene, like noticing his clothing and whatnot. So they're obviously. Let's say they're lying. Why are they lying? Why are these random Sinclair Community College students and employees conspiring to frame an innocent man who they've never met for no reason? I guess it's just the powerful influence of the Macklem family. Right? I mean, don't forget, folks, folks. Gary Macklem, Scott's father, was a State Farm Insurance representative and the. The mayor of the powerhouse tiny farming town of Croswell, Michigan. Obviously that carries a lot of weight with people. You know, they're going to obviously bend to their influence. No, that's stupid. Why would they lie? So then the other option is if they're not lying, these witnesses, who, again, many two of whom actually identified Kenzie was the person they saw and. And others who just, you know, said it certainly looked like him, they're wrong. Okay, well, that's certainly a little bit easier to believe. I can. I usually tend to believe people being mistaken versus, like, people being part of a vast Michigan conspiracy. So let's go into them being wrong. I guess they're wrong and they're too embarrassed to say anything or they were manipulated by police. Right. It's innocent. But the police were really gunning for Kenzu, so they kind of pushed it in in different directions. So one area where this is often brought out is criticisms of the photo lineups, the mug book, if you will, of a group of mug shots that are shown to these witnesses and they identify Kenzo.
- [119:14]
B
Yeah, one particularly stupid variation of this, and frankly, all of this is stupid. I can't stress how stupid some of this stuff is. But one stupid variation is Team Kinzu's intrepid investigator, Herb Wellser. He, in 2008, was able to get permission to look at some of the photos used in the lineup. And previous defense attorneys had not been able to see that. And when he saw it, he saw that the picture of Kinzu was like, larger than the other pictures of the other people. And so therefore it was suggestive and would taint people's identifications. First of all, there's never been any indication that those pictures were withheld from other people. If I say I watched an episode of Kojak tonight, that doesn't mean that I haven't watched episodes of Kojak's years past. That doesn't mean that other people didn't watch Kojak. My friends didn't watch Kojak years ago. So the fact that this intrepid investigator, Mr. Wellser, saw the pictures in 2008, there's no reason to believe or suggest or indicate that other people didn't see them. And it turns out also that the picture that was enlarged was not the copy of the picture that was used in the lineup. It was a photo that was enlarged specifically for a trial exhibit.
- [120:44]
A
Wow, what a smoking gun. I also want to note, Herb Wellser told us that he doesn't believe that Crystal lied on the stand. He doesn't believe she committed perjury. So there's one person for the. I guess, you know, Crystal's not a liar. Team I. Yeah, the. The mug shot thing, I think. What, what wasn't one thing like he was facing a different direction than the other people. Okay. I've seen, you've shown me, I believe that mugshot book. I didn't notice that. Maybe I'm just really not perceptive, but to me, it didn't look. And you also have to remember Renee Gobind, one of the witnesses who identified him at the in person lineup. He didn't wait. There were like six people. The second guy comes up, it's Tem and Jenkenzu, and he's immediately. It's that guy. It's that guy. It's that guy. He remembered his face.
- [121:34]
B
Let's. Let's talk about Mr. Gobein.
- [121:36]
A
Yeah. So he's obviously a strong witness. So, you know, so Crystal's a liar, but this guy also has to be kind of.
- [121:44]
B
So Mr. Gobind gives a detailed description of the person he sees soon afterwards. He then, on his own accord, decides, I want to be helpful, and he goes to a professor who hypnotizes him. And so the claim has been made that the hypnosis is not to be trusted and anything gained from the hypnosis is improper. And that's a reasonable position to hold. And in fact, the only things that Mr. Gilbein has been allowed to testify to are the details in the description he gave police prior to the hypnosis.
- [122:27]
A
And also, I do want to point out that the hypnosis did not result in anything like, oh, he. He was also wearing big clown shoes and there was a Dr. Dragon flying overhead. It was. I think he may have gotten maybe a little bit more like. He was more certain about the license plate number afterwards.
- [122:46]
B
Yeah.
- [122:46]
A
Again, this was not allowed at trial, appropriately. I don't. I don't like hypnosis. I don't. I mean, again, he was obviously just trying to be enthusiastic about helping, but much like the karate studio witnesses, sometimes you can do too much. And in this case, that was that. I think he was even told by police, don't get hypnotized. Like, please do not do that. But he did. And ultimately, because they got the statement from him before that happened, it doesn't matter. What matters is his initial statement. As far as police conspiring to frame Kenzou, we can't prove a negative. Right? I mean, we weren't there. But why? And again, what. What they say is why? Because Scott was a horrific drug dealer and they wanted to protect the Macklem family reputation. I don't know why people in St. Clair county who are in law enforcement or in the prosecutor's office would care that much about something going on in Sanilac county to the point where they're going to risk their reputations, their careers, their livelihoods, and possibly even their freedom in order to frame some random dude.
- [123:48]
B
Yeah, the theory. Oh, the prosecution, police, courts, and governor are all corrupt. It's that. That's stupid. It's ludicrous. It's not even worthy of serious consideration. The other thing is this guy, Philip Joplin, he was in a cell with Mr. Kinzu, heard a variety of incriminating statements. He writes the prosecutor a few days before the trial to say this Just happened. I heard these things, they were disturbing. And he then comes in and testifies to them. The claims have been made that he only offered his testimony in exchange for benefits from the prosecutor's office under oath. Mr. Joplin and the relevant members of the prosecution team denied that under oath. There was some interview with a television reporter where Mr. Joplin suggested he was lying. However, Mr. Joplin declined to repeat those statements under oath. There's a certain process if you want to recant testimony, you have to, you have to sign like an affidavit, blah.
- [125:01]
A
Blah, blah, do it under oath.
- [125:02]
B
And you have to do it under oath.
- [125:04]
A
And shooting the breeze with some random TV journalist and getting a.
- [125:08]
B
That doesn't count. That doesn't count. So he, he, he refused to recant his testimony under oath and live for.
- [125:16]
A
Many years like people act like. And then he died before it was he could do it. He lived for several years beyond that and still refused.
- [125:24]
B
So I'm inclined to believe the testimony he gave under oath.
- [125:28]
A
I am too. And I'm certainly inclined to believe the testimony that a prosecutor gave under oath about not also. Let's be. I think a key thing that you mentioned there, he came forward days before the trial was supposed to start. Like this was the, they were going to trial anyway. They felt they had a case against the trial.
- [125:46]
B
They had a strong case.
- [125:47]
A
Joplin's just a bonus.
- [125:49]
B
The other thing that's mentioned in terms of Joplin, I heard a lot of, of people mentioned there was another person in this cell with Joplin and Kinzu. He was in the cell, I believe this off the top of my head, for like maybe 20 minutes, half an hour, while Joplin and Kinzu were in the cell for over two hours together. So there was a considerable period of time where this gentleman was not in the cell when Joplin and Kinzu were in the cell. And he said, well, when I was in the cell, I didn't hear Mr. Kinzu make these incriminating statements. Okay, well, Joplin says these statements weren't made until after you left the cell.
- [126:33]
A
So who cares?
- [126:34]
B
So who cares? And this is often touted as a huge bombshell. Again, this is testimony that was offered at the trial. So the jury was aware of this. I think it's just another example of how Team Kinzu misrepresents and frankly lies and twists things in order to confuse good hearted people. You know, it's shameful.
- [127:02]
A
There's a thing called time. And like, if I'm there for 20 minutes at a party and then I Leave and a fight breaks out 50 minutes later. Of course I'm not gonna see that. I can't be why I went to the party. I didn't see anything. Who cares what you like? It's all meant to manipulate the public. And that's what bothers me. It's because you know what? They've got to know that this stuff doesn't fly in court. And that's what bothers me. Like, listen, you're an appellate team, you're a post conviction team, you're some innocence, relief, whatever, fine. You've got to do what you got to do in court and throw everything at it. That's the job. But this isn't for Cord. This is for just making people who like skim an article that a reporter like, like, you know, churned out on the fly. It's to make them think a certain way and to provide support to somebody who is very clearly where he needs to be. And that's, that's appalling to me.
- [127:59]
B
Should we move on to the next section?
- [128:00]
A
Yes, now let's counter. So we try and we tried counter what you'd have to believe in order to not believe any of the trial evidence. Let's talk about what you'd have to believe in order to not believe any of the non trial evidence. And again, this is stuff that we don't feel like should convict someone, but it's stuff that's probably important for everyone to know. So let's talk about everybody. This is a, this is a, this is a list of people he's been violent to. It's not a complete list. I'm sure those people were forgetting. I just jotted this down on the fly. These are people that he's either made violent threats to or has been physically violent with or just some kind of bad negative incident. So these people all must be lying about his violence and, and stalking and threats and all that. Crystal, Scott, Crystal's sister, Crystal's sister's boyfriend, Crystal's co workers, the people in Crystal's Life, Scott's parents, D. D's parents, Michelle S, J S, J.C. g, Laina G's mother's boyfriend, Arnel Kenzu's neighbors, Kenzu's landlady, the eyewitnesses who saw Kenzu in Port Huron, the witnesses who placed him at the Halloween party, the people he tried and failed to recruit as eyewitnesses, the people who saw him but not at the time he said he saw them, Kenzu's parents who think he's guilty. Even one Prospective alibi witnesses that he brings up as seeing him during the time that he was supposed to be killing Scott, who said that they went on a couple dates and she broke up with him because he was pushing her around. Friggin being violent with one of his own freaking alibi witnesses. Oh, and the police obviously, and the prosecutors and Scott's family and the governor and his own defense attorney, David Dean. They're all a bunch of liars, obviously. Oh, and us. Don't, don't forget us. We're in there. We're all these people were lying about these negative threats and violence and incidents. And everyone who says something about, about, about, about him that's bad is obviously just a mean liar trying to ruin a cool dude's good time, obviously.
- [130:04]
B
Obviously.
- [130:06]
A
So that's how we knock down the violence terms of the weird karate stuff. Same. All the women are lying. All the women who said that he tried to train them in the ninja arts and they threatened them with ninja weapons and he collected them. You know, he's got them in his car, the weapons when he's arrested. But obviously, you know, the, the cops just had those flying stars ready to plant on him, I guess. And, and he also admits in the police records to collecting ninja devices. So I don't even know what this is an issue. Again, the gun stuff. He now claims I'm not a gun guy. I like to use my karate moves to take people down. G test told us in our interview he shot her with a BB gun to train her. So he's obviously not like completely against weapons. When LC testified she lived with him two to three months starting in July 1985. She said she had this. He had this duffel bag that he said was full of guns. She didn't see it, but she felt the barrel of a long gun in there. A woman who had an affair with Kenzu said that he owned a handgun and shot it in the house. Crystal testified about him owning a gun. She didn't know the type, but her description matches the shotgun. A shotgun that was used to kill Scott. The ammo and gun, like this is the most ridiculous. Oh, I'm not a gun guy. Then why does this guy have ammo boxes, ammo clips and belts, gun accessories in the trunk of his car when he's arrested. I'm not a gun person. I don't own a gun. Why would I? I don't have like ammo boxes hanging around. Like why would I in my car? And he also claims in the police reports to have owned weapons and guns in the past. So I mean, it's just kind of, I don't know, they just overstayed everything. Now let's talk about like debunking the idea that he's got a really violent and terrible and kind of malicious personality. I, I guess everyone's lying again. All the psychiatrist who evaluated him and diagnosed him with antisocial personality disorder. I guess the. I don't know, I guess all the people are lying when they say that he ran years long schemes and manipulated them in kind of horrifying ways over time. They must be lying because he's way too disorganized and impulsive to do that. And you know, I guess he's like, people are lying. When they said he threatened to track down people they love and kill them and destroy them. I mean, I want to say this. The reason why I think with Crystal, things ended in a murder was because she broke the cycle. I mean, she defied him. Women who had been with him, they had to escape. They would flee states, they would run. That's what happened with G. She got out of there to save herself and to save her child. With Crystal, she broke up with him and then she went back to Scott and they got together and they were going to have a happy life and he could not handle that. You know, you have to run from him fleeing so he can't see you anymore. If you, if you dare to defy him and then you stick around, that's going to be a problem for him. He cannot handle that. And when the threats and the violence no longer affected Crystal's decisions, when she was just on the verge of raising a baby with a loving guy who, you know, was, was, it's just sad, was gonna have a nice life and, and the baby might be Kenzoo's, as far as his own paranoid, deluded thinking goes. You know, Kenzie's frankly an egomaniac. He thought he was smarter than everyone else and he wasn't going to be denied. So he, in order to control everything, he escalated. I thought it was really interesting at the commutation hearing, Mona Armstrong, who's now a judge and was then representing the state.
- [133:46]
B
Yeah, Can I talk about this?
- [133:47]
A
Yeah. This is really powerful. I thought.
- [133:51]
B
A lot of people on team Canzoo seem to be under the impression that they know more about Michigan law than lawyers who actually practice law in Michigan, which is very much the wrong impression to have. And so based on their lack of understanding of Michigan law, they say, well, some of this evidence against Kinzu, some of the history of his domestic violence against Crystal, that should not have been admitted. That was prejudicial. That's not fair. It's not fair that people knew that Temujin was a rapist thug. Idiot. Courts have looked at it and said no. Under Michigan law, this was perfectly appropriate because it went to motive. It helped explain the context of this crime. And at the commutation hearing, Mona Armstrong, as Anya mentioned, went even further and she explained that Michigan has become increasingly aware the sort of actions Mr. Kinzu did do not exist in a vacuum. And there is a context that you need to understand if you want to understand why something happened and who did it. And she says that today all of the prior bad acts of Mr. Kinzu that were excluded at the trial back in the 80s would likely be heard and admitted today.
- [135:24]
A
And even if she's wrong, even if a judge would disagree, we have a much greater understanding of domestic violence than we did back in 86. So we know that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. And when you have a person who has a pattern of specific behavior and violence against women and he's consistently doing these things, I think it's at least in the conversation that it's potentially would be found relevant. Even if it wasn't. It's certainly relevant for us to talk about because it's a pattern. It's not, it's not just he just woke up one day and did these things. This is how he existed in the world. This is how he got what he wanted. We all use strategies in our lives, hopefully positive, pro social ones, to get what we want. For some of us, that might be like working hard and hustling or you might have ways of, you know, raising your kids to make sure they're the most happy and safe and having a good time. You have ways of dealing with other people, of relating to other people, of going and trying get what you want. And again, hopefully all of those are pro social and not violent and not manipulative. But with him they were. And with him it was very well documented. And with him, when there were plenty of people who could have come forward and said he did the same thing to me, just no one got killed at the end of that. You know, when you have someone who just consistently bullies other people and pushes other people around and suddenly isn't getting what he's want and what he wants, the ego shattering that can occur can result in violence. And I thought Mona Armstrong made a great point there. I, I, we have no, as, as journalists, we have absolutely no obligation to not include character evidence in our reporting. Like, absolutely not. We're here to educate and put out the facts. And these facts have been suppressed for too long. But certainly it's interesting, indeed they have. It's interesting to think that even maybe some of this might have come into the trial had it happened today because it wouldn't have been seen as. It would have been seen as part of a larger thing.
- [137:22]
B
Should we move on to the next section?
- [137:24]
A
Next section, let's get into what we would need to change our minds. We've said all these things and we've certainly expressed that we're very much adamant that this man is guilty. But I'm. I always leave the door open or a crack to say, well there maybe there's information that could change my mind. And I agree if somebody has like an old videotape of someone else shooting Scott Macklem, then I would certainly take that into consideration. And these are, these are, I mean, in my mind these are non existent and probably hypothetical. But I think it's important to at least outline what that could look like, what shifting your perspective could look like. For me. And there's two different tracks here. One is things that would get me to change my mind and think that Kenzie was factually innocent, meaning that he did not do the crime. He didn't kill Scott, someone else did. He's not even involved. And then second would be what would get me to think that Kenzie was legally innocent, meaning that he's very likely guilty, but he got an unfair shot in trial and his rights were violated and he probably needs a new trial. So want to go through factually innocent first?
- [138:28]
B
Sure.
- [138:28]
A
I think this is what people prefer because we would prefer people to get out of prison because they're factually innocent, not because of some, you know, people messed up the trial. In a world where there's evidence of Scott Macklem actually being a high powered drug dealer or drug user or some kind of criminal.
- [138:47]
B
Yeah, this is, this is the claim that Team Kinzu puts out. They, they're not content that Team Kenzou took this young man's life.
- [138:55]
A
Team Kenzu didn't take the man's life. Temajin Kenzie did.
- [138:59]
B
They're not content that their hero, Mr. Kenzo took this young man's life. They also want to drag his reputation through the mud and falsely impugn his character with unsupported claims that he was involved was the drug trade and he was not.
- [139:16]
A
But if someone brought forward some, some key, very sharp evidence that Was, was believable and credible that Scott in fact was a high powered criminal, I would reconsider. And because someone who's in that world might have different kinds of enemies and.
- [139:30]
B
May be a target, we don't expect that to happen.
- [139:32]
A
We interviewed more people who knew Scott than I think anyone else has. We actually had five of them on some recent episodes we did. They told us that Scott was a guy who was popular, he was athletic, he had a lot going for him. He had great relationships with women. He was the kind of guy who people would date him and then they'd be friends with him even if they broke up. He had some big stuff going on in his life. When he was only 20. He had a marriage coming up, he's about to get married to Crystal, he was going to become a dad. Those are big things. Did he have everything figured out? Probably not. He didn't necessarily know everything he was going to do with his life, but people loved him and he was kind and supportive and gentle with other people. And he was also the kind of guy who would not be happy if you were smoking around him. We talked to one of his former girlfriends and she lit up a cigarette and he was like, took it out and was like, don't you know these are bad for you? You can't do that to yourself. He was not, he was not like into anything that was unhealthy. So it really seems very counter to his character. We can't prove a negative. We can't go back in time and follow him all around his life and see, you know, but we can say like what was in character from people who knew him. That's the best we can do. In a world where there was evidence that Scott Macklin was having other people who wanted to kill him for any reason or harm him or whatever. And frankly, this would have to, in my. This isn't just like someone got into a fight with him or someone had a quarrel with him or someone had an issue with him or someone didn't like his personality. This would have to be like something is happening where like there's something going on. On the scale of someone threatening to kill him. We know Temujin Kenzie was threatening to kill him. So we need something kind of to that level or, or around that level. Temujin Kenzie had a specific problem with Scott. Scott took his, his woman and Temujin Kenzie views women as his property. So Scott was aware of that. Scott told other people, hey, this is a thing going on with Temujin Kenzu Kendu was threatening Crystal. He was threatening Scott to Crystal. Everyone was aware of this. All three of them were aware of what was happening. But if there was some other situation that we're not aware of and that Scott seemingly did not tell anyone about where something to that level was happening, then that would certainly cloud things and say, well, maybe this person could have done it.
- [141:48]
B
Or if there's any evidence whatsoever that someone else was stalking Scott.
- [141:52]
A
Not.
- [141:53]
B
There's not.
- [141:54]
A
Yeah. Where one guy got the dates wrong.
- [141:58]
B
But he got the name of Temujin.
- [141:59]
A
But he got the name right. There's no people say, who are the two men that went to Scott's store. The employee identified one as Temujin Kenzu.
- [142:08]
B
I don't know if it was the name, but he identified. Maybe in a picture or something.
- [142:10]
A
He said, this is the. He identified him visually.
- [142:14]
B
If Temujin Kinzu's claims to have an alibi were correct and people did place him in another town at the time of the murder. But of course, as we've established, that's not the case.
- [142:27]
A
I'm gonna say this. People can be horrible. People can be a dirt bag. People can be just abusive, terrible, awful people, and they could still be innocent of a crime. And what you have to do is go based on the evidence. And so if Timmy Jin Kenzoo's army of eyewitnesses really put him up in Escanaba, I would find that compelling. And I would say something else must have happened, or I'd probably think he hired someone to do it. But. But barring that, barring that, I would at least that would throw everything into question if you believe the eyewitnesses. But the thing is, most of the eyewitnesses aren't even eyewitnesses. They're people who said, I. I didn't have anything to do with this. And the only ones who are, like, at least moderately good for Kenzu, the. The karate people are, like, were destroyed on the stand because, like, what they did was clearly not okay.
- [143:18]
B
What if you had a situation where Kinzu. Mr. Kinzu did not taint the eyewitnesses?
- [143:24]
A
I mean, I think if that was the case, then he wouldn't have any eyewitnesses, so it probably would be a moot point.
- [143:29]
B
What about a situation and Mr. Kinzu wasn't the one who was constantly alluding to the possibility of taking planes?
- [143:36]
A
I. I think the planes can be thrown out entirely, and it doesn't really move the needle for me. But certainly, I think the fact that he's Bringing up planes constantly is funny because that nowadays they're like, I can't believe the prosecutor responded to the thing that we kept on referencing.
- [143:49]
B
It's like, okay, what about your situation? If Crystal was the only one who accused Mr. Kinzu of violent and threatening behavior.
- [143:57]
A
Now, this is tricky because I'm a big believer in the idea that you can have a predator who knows who to target. And therefore, maybe most women that they go out with, maybe they don't do something to, but maybe they find someone who they think is more vulnerable and they do behave in a certain way. This is all very varied. That being. That being said, false rape and abuse accusations can and do happen. So you have to keep that in mind, too. I think that if an individual is an amazing person to most people, or at the very least not a violent person towards most people, I think they can still prey on one person. But frankly, if all of his past girlfriends had said he was a prince, or at the very least, nonviolent and non threatening, and suddenly here comes Crystal and he's doing all this stuff and he's doing ninja moves and he's raping her and he's attacking her and he's stalking her, I think that would give me at least some pause. What do you think? I agree it would be like, why is he behaving so differently in this situation, according to her? And I think it would be something where we have to look further at the evidence and is there stuff to corroborate what she's saying? And she did have stuff to corroborate what she was saying, but also the stories of all the other women completely corroborate what she's saying as well. Well, it's never just been Crystal's word, but it would certainly give me more pause if it was only her making some of these accusations.
- [145:16]
B
Well, there's a situation where there weren't eyewitnesses who identified Mr. Kinzie.
- [145:21]
A
If there weren't eyewitnesses who identified Mr. Kenzie, I think that for me is perhaps the strongest evidence where that actually ties him to the crime scene and the approximate time of the crime. No one witnessed the actual crime. But that ties in there. And I think to me, if you eliminate them, I don't. I don't see how there could be a conviction. Even if you had motive, even if you had what Crystal was saying, I think what those witnesses mean are, you know, they seal Kenzu's fate for me.
- [145:49]
B
They seal his fate. Yeah. The situation you mentioned is maybe he is guilty but he didn't get a fair trial.
- [145:56]
A
That can happen. That could absolutely happen. And I'm under the belief that if someone gets an unfair trial, even if they're very clearly guilty, you gotta do it over because somebody's rights are sacrosanct and you must protect them.
- [146:07]
B
So that would be a situation, for instance, if the judge made a mistake and allowed Mr. Gobein's post hypnosis details to be entered into evidence and he didn't. Or if his whole past and patterns of behavior, Mr. Kinsu's whole past came into the trial and it didn't. The only thing that came into the trial were the things that directly went to Mr. Kinzu's motives for taking Mr.
- [146:35]
A
Macklem's life and Mr. Kenzo's. Mr. Temujin Kenzo's person is. His attorney David Dean did an able job cross examining people like Crystal and, and basically kind of like, like the jury had the opportunity to say I find her credible or I don't find her credible based on that cross examination. So they weren't hearing all of the stuff we've talked about. They were hearing about his treatment of her because that directly goes to motive. They weren't hearing about his past relationships or anything like that. I mean, so ultimately they determined, they, they, they gave their verdict based on who they found credible. They were able to weigh Crystal's credibility. They were able to weigh the credibility of eyewitnesses on both sides. Those who said they saw Temujin Kenzu at the murder site, those who saw, said they saw him in Escanaba. They had all those opportunities to say which is more believable, which do I believe? Who do I think is kind of just stumbling around and who do I think is sharp and on the ball and actually saw what they saw? Kenzo did not get convicted because the jury thought he was a bad guy. He was convicted based on the evidence they heard, including witnesses identifying him very plainly as the person there, as well as the motive. That was established very clearly by Crystal. Most of the stuff about his character has come out at least in the mainstream through us. And that's very important because it backs up Crystal's testimony. We will can absolutely continue to report on that because it backs up an important aspect of this case. But people don't like it. So they accuse us of just, you know, focusing on his character and all. We care about his character. I don't care about his character. I care about the fact that people saw him there like right before and right after Scott was Killed. I care about that. He had a motive to do it. I care about the incriminating statements he made.
- [148:25]
B
And it's the geniuses on Team Kinzu that made it an issue in the first place. By simultaneously, Brandon Crystal is a crazy liar while Mr. Kinzu is portrayed as this cool guy who just wants to rock and roll and do karate.
- [148:40]
A
Don't we all?
- [148:42]
B
I think you want to do some quick bullet points on some common misinformation and then we will get to our recent exchange with Mr. Kenzo.
- [148:49]
A
Yes. So commonly spread misinformation in this case is on the facts of the case that Scott was a drug dealer. No, he wasn't. There's no evidence to say that. We mentioned, I think alluded to some attendance issues he had in college. That does not make someone a drug kingpin. A lot of people skip class. It doesn't. He was a 20 year old kid. He was on his way. He was figuring out what he was gonna do as he entered adulthood and became a father. Father. He had a lot on this plate. But he was not a drug dealer. He was not a drug user. He was not a. He was not involved in criminal activity. There's no evidence to suggest that and to do so is offensive. And as we've said many times, if Ken. Team Kenzu has some evidence that we're not aware of that they want to put out there, put it out there. No one ever has. There was a shotgun shell box found the day of the murder at 6:45pm at a. A I think a. A lot that was like adjacent to the murder site. And the person turned this in. I believe it was an empty shotgun shell carton and it was. The brand was Federal High Power 20 gauge. This was near the Fine Arts building. A big deal about this is made because fingerprints on it did not match Kenzu. But I guess my question is who cares? This is a 20 gauge box. 12 gauge double OT shot was found in the victim's body. I guess I, I don't know.
- [150:08]
B
There's no evidence that that was connected to the crime. It was hunting season. There's no reason to think that this box found in another parking lot was connected to the murder.
- [150:18]
A
Also I want to say the defense had this and they very ably suggested at trial that maybe this is relevant and we need to look at this. So the jury weighed that and they said no and that was appropriate.
- [150:28]
B
Well, the big one is depending on which headline you're reading. 12 people, 16 people. 17 people, 18 people, 100 people. People they all saw him in Escanaba when he was supposed to be murdering Macklem in Port Huron. As we've established, it's not true.
- [150:45]
A
Yeah, we talked about this a little bit, but oftentimes it's brought out by Team Kenzu that Scott was being stalked by two mysterious men who've never been identified. That's not true. Or that people were stalking Scott before Kenzie even came in the picture. It's true that one of Scott's friends seemingly got the date wrong and said that something happened in winter when it happened later. But people make mistakes. And that same person mentioned Kenus by name. So I guess I, I think that's more important than the timing. If, if he didn't name anybody, then I could see twisting it. But, like, in this case, it's like he just clearly made a mistake. It's not a big deal. I, I, I, I just, you know.
- [151:31]
B
I, I, his claims that Scott was being stalked by someone other than Mr. Kinu. There's no evidence of that. And Scott was well aware of Mr. Kinzu stalking Scott.
- [151:43]
A
Told everybody like Scott was telling all these people, yeah, this guy's stalking me. His name's this. It wasn't Temujin Kenzu back then, but he gave the alias. This is the guy who's stalking me.
- [151:51]
B
And then there's, in terms of the law, there's a guy named Justice Shapiro who wrote some dicta in a case where he was critical of aspects of the case against Mr. Kinzy. It was dicta. It doesn't count. If you want to look at what counts, look at what the majority of the judges write in the actual opinions. That's what counts. If you go into battle waving the flag of something that was written in dicta, that's a very weak. That's a very weak.
- [152:22]
A
Battle's over.
- [152:23]
B
Look at the actual ruling. And then there was a woman named Hood, Justice Hood throughout the case temporarily, she got a lot of stuff wrong, and her colleagues on the bench corrected her, and her ruling is no longer in force.
- [152:42]
A
That's embarrassing.
- [152:44]
B
The fact of the matter is, except for this great dicta and this one ruling that was only in place temporarily, every other judicial body that has looked at this case is comfortable with how it was handled and is comfortable with Mr. Kinzu's guilt.
- [153:01]
A
You know, ultimately, so many of what you would need to change your mind would just be personal attacks on law enforcement, personal attacks on prosecutors, personal attacks on the court system, personal attacks on the Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, personal attacks on Attorney General Dana Nestle. Personal attacks on Crystal. Personal attacks on all the women who've come forward since. It's. I've even seen people say, well, Crystal may have not even been engaged to Scott. Maybe she was really behind it. In the police file, it says that Scott's friend is aware that he's getting married in January. People knew about this? We talked to their friends. They knew about this. This isn't a mystery. Just because it's not been like, spelled out. Just because they want to raise reasonable doubt where there is none doesn't mean you get to lie about these people.
- [153:48]
B
Are we ready to discuss our recent exchange with Mr. Kinzu?
- [153:51]
A
Why don't we explain why we wanted an exchange?
- [153:53]
B
Okay. So at the very beginning of our coverage, actually before we air any episodes, we wrote to Mr. Kinzu and Mr. Kinzu's current wife Paula on Facebook saying we, we frankly believe you're guilty, but we'd be interested in your point of view and your perspective. Love to have an on the record conversation with you so we could share your perspective. Mrs. Kinzu wrote back and indicated she would only take questions in writing and then consider answer them. And that was a no go for us. And Mr. Kinzu never replied. There. There have been suggestions that Mr. Kinzu does not control his own Facebook account that was actually controlled by his wife, Paula. I. I don't, frankly, I don't believe that.
- [154:44]
A
I don't know. I mean, I mean, I'm. I'm agnostic on that.
- [154:47]
B
I. I think they both share it, but I have no evidence. But if that was the case, then that means that maybe Mr. Kinzoo never saw our message and it's important to us to be fair. And so we decided to write him recently on JPay and have it go directly to him. Why don't I read the message that.
- [155:09]
A
I wrote and I can be Kenzu.
- [155:11]
B
Yeah, Anya is a great Kinzu.
- [155:14]
A
I did do that 10 page letter that we all suffered through. I do want to ask you, do you remember exactly when we sent this just so we can contextualize it? Was it a couple weeks ago?
- [155:22]
B
Something like that?
- [155:22]
A
Something like that. So it's relatively recent.
- [155:26]
B
This is what I wrote to Mr. Kinzer. My name is Kevin Greenlee. My wife Anya Cain and I host the Murder Sheet podcast. As you may or may not know, we have done several episodes on your case and plan to do more in the future. Our episodes take the view that you are indeed guilty of the murder of Scott Maglom. Before we produced our first episodes on your case, we reached out to you and your wife via Facebook to give you the opportunity to share your perspective. Your wife replied, but you did not. Since she has at times suggested she controls your social media. It is not clear to us if you even were aware of our message. With that in mind, we have chosen to write you directly. Would you be interested in having an on the record conversation with us that we may record and use on the podcast? If so, please let us know how we may set it up. We will consider any reply you make to this message to be on the record. In the meantime, we have a couple of preliminary questions. In a recent decision, the Michigan Supreme Court ruled that a life without parole sentence could be unconstitutional for people under 21. If that decision was expanded at the age of 25, would you seek release even if it meant admitting guilt? We have more information about your relations with women before you went to prison than after. How would you characterize your relationship with Denise Amiko? How would you describe the Cathal people? Now, before Anya reads the reply, Denise Amico was a woman that Mr. Kinzu married while he was in prison. The Cathal people. That is a reference to the ludicrous religion that Mr. Kinzu concocted.
- [157:09]
A
It's a cult.
- [157:10]
B
As far as I can tell. The primary precepts of this religion, again concocted by Mr. Kinzu is that Mr. Kinzu is a really cool guy.
- [157:18]
A
No, that he's basically God. Right?
- [157:20]
B
He's the Samyan.
- [157:21]
A
He is the Samyan. He's the only Samyan.
- [157:23]
B
How did Mr. Kinzu reply? We got two messages back.
- [157:26]
A
He's obviously very dignified and rational. All right, here we go. You two pretentious, deceitful, untalented and outside control trash bags have got to be kidding. Daring to reach out to me, to ask me to willingly participate in your agenda driven six charade and pathetic joke of a podcast. You are without question two of the most vile and despicable people to ever disgrace the true crime and criminal justice community. Not that either of you care about truth of justice. I'd say you should be ashamed, but we both know that attribute escapes you at best if you even understand the meaning of the concept. All you have done is expose yourself to the world as frauds and charlatans and my millions of supporters have come to see and know you and your sad shows for what they are, shamelessly directed and clearly targeted hit pieces so poorly and transparently done for the benefit of others. However, you might profit that even first listeners have reached out to tell us they they were able to see from the start exactly what you were doing. And they were as disgusted as we all are. You're sick. Attempts to use very disturbed people with long and horrendous past, like Lena and G. Both of whom I ejected from my life long ago because of the terrible choices they made made and the even worse things they were doing while knowing they had not one shred of information about my actual innocence or your absurd allegations of guilt was the proverbial nail in the coffin of your podcasting future, which will wither and die on the vine. As well it should. You have shredded any credibility you might ever have garnered. Though I understand for many in the know that this was minimal as well. Well, you've definitely sealed your podcasting fate with your endless obsessive, immature, and whiny attacks upon me while doing nothing whatsoever to call out the monsters that not just orchestrated. I know none of this will make either of you repent, grow up. Care of change. And I have no intention of speaking with you further until I sue you. Which will be soon, I assure you. Feel free to add to the damages and my preference proofs your program is.
- [160:00]
B
And that's the end of the message. Before Anya.
- [160:05]
A
I'm sorry, I just. Oh, man.
- [160:09]
B
Before Anya reads the second message that we got immediately after, I want to make a comment. No one is controlling us. No one is paying us to talk about Temujin. No one suggested we talk about Temujin. The idea of covering this case came entirely from me, yours truly, and because I looked at it very briefly and I said, this guy's obviously guilty and he's being innocent.
- [160:40]
A
People are being hurt, and he's being lionized.
- [160:42]
B
And then I went to Anya and said, this may be a controversial case. Do you mind if we do it? And she said, I trust you. So that's the only.
- [160:51]
A
And then I read everything myself. To be clear, I wasn't just like, let's do whatever. Yeah, I. I mean, I'm just gonna like, I. Here's the thing. We reached out to this guy before we said anything about this case ever. We reached out to his wife, and we were honest about how we felt. We said, we think you're guilty. I didn't. I didn't want to be in a situation. Maybe that was a bad strategic plan. Maybe we should have lured them into a false sense of security. But that felt wrong. I felt like, listen, you guys are so used to getting a sponge bath from every interviewer you've ever talked to. You. We think differently, but we're still going to treat you with respect. We're going to ask you some harder questions. That seems reasonable. We weren't trying to say, like, we didn't, like, reach out in an insulting way. We were honest. And instead of being like, we just declined. No, thank you. They've tried to attack us multiple times since then and, you know, spread lies about us. And it's like this is. This just kind of proves what everyone has said. It doesn't really. Like, you know, when, when you're saying basically, like, I'm going to threaten you and look, that's what he's doing here. He's threatening to sue us.
- [161:57]
B
It.
- [161:57]
A
It, it just kind of. It kind of proves everybody's point about, like, that's how you are.
- [162:02]
B
And he attacks his own daughter in that message. But what. That was only the first message, Anya. I think, like, minutes later.
- [162:09]
A
Double blast.
- [162:10]
B
It was a second one.
- [162:11]
A
All right. Corrections. Since I expect 22 clowns to sink to even mocking JPay related grammatical errors as some alleged lack of intelligence reasons on my own part. 1. Truth or justice? 2. Orchestrated not just the tragic charade of my wrongful conviction, to cover up the truth about what really happened to Scott Macklem and why and to protect the Macklem family name, but who ensured that a brutal and heartless killer had not, has not just escaped justice and likely has hurt more since. Again, not that you would ever care about something as important as that. That since you can't use it for your twisted purposes. 3. I would never discuss anything I have written or believe with either of you two cretins. But I will warn you, and as a lawyer who claims some knowledge of communication law, and thus libel, slander, defamation, and I would hope, religious discrimination. Kevin, you should be well aware of this. If you attack my faith or writings in any way, while also disparaging the sincerely held religious beliefs and faith of. Of myself or related others. And if you in any way, shape or form mischaracterize my faith writings or that of related others who hold them in any esteem, I can promise you you will both face further litigation for this. Laugh if you wish, but try me if you think I am bluffing and consider my own very successful litigation history far, far beyond yours, how many attorneys and law firms I have worked with and befriended over the decades, decades, each and every one of whom you could not hold a candle to. Not to mention the effect of all the publicity, depositions, interrogatories which I will share with press releases, as well as the lawful liens which I will file on Everything of value you own or have access to. Lastly, you might want to consider the glass house you're throwing stones from. Comments and crude implications about the possible age of women I associated with, considering what I have been told and learned about your own dark, dark, disturbing and age varied relationship. Or the idiocy of attempting to substitute your less than comical judgment for that of the caliber of the legion of legal experts and criminal justice scholars I have been honored to know and be supported by. Well, need I say more? The world is laughing at you. Do not contact me again unless it's to apologize, relent, and pull down your pathetic packs of lies and start over from scratch. You might just save what's left of your rep. Might.
- [164:53]
B
Ah, makes you think. Makes you think.
- [164:58]
A
He's threatening us. He's gonna reveal our age gap. Kevin. I just want to note Kevin didn't, like, groom me as a teenager and get me to join his weird sex cabades. As a note.
- [165:13]
B
Also, Anya misspoke. She referred. You read his sincerely held religious beliefs. What? He actually refused, wrote my sincerely held religious beef beefs. He misspelled the word.
- [165:23]
A
I know. I see. He accuses, you're gonna get me on all these typos.
- [165:28]
B
As long as he says you're gonna get me on typo, you're gonna get me. But no, let me say this, Let me say this. We all make typos. The typos Mr. Kinzu made does not mean he has low intelligence. There are many, many, many other reasons why I believe he has low intelligence. That's not it. We all make typos. I certainly make typos from time to time. So normally, if a person says, don't contact me again, we respect that. But if you're saying in the same communication you're getting things wrong about me and I'm going to sue you over it, that's pretty damn serious.
- [166:09]
A
Yeah, we take that very seriously.
- [166:11]
B
We take that very seriously. And it demanded a response. Response, which I will read. The response I wrote when I tried to send it. I found out that Mr. Kenzoo, this very brave man, blocked me because he's.
- [166:24]
A
A lion of the Cathal. I'm sorry? The dragon of the Cathal people.
- [166:26]
B
He blocked me because he obviously frightened of us. So I'm going to read you this note I wanted to send to Mr. Kinsey that we weren't permitted to. We appreciate your reply. We note with interest your threats to sue us if we have, in fact made any errors or misstatements in our episodes on you. We invite you to send us information identifying each error and explaining why our sources, mainly public records, were incorrect. If we feel your evidence is compelling, we will promptly issue a correction. If you fail to do this, we reserve the right to say in our program that when we ask you to identify any errors in our coverage that you are unable to do so. Of course, the First Amendment guarantees us the right of free speech and that in turn permits us to share information about your Cathal People cult as well as offer our own analysis of it. If you are truly concerned that our discussion on this topic topic will not do justice to the Cathal People, we again invite you to share with us some information about the topic which we will consider sharing on our program. We do observe that we find it interesting that the subject of the Cathal People is one of the very few which you do not discuss in the many interviews and monologues you share with your fans. For instance, in an episode of One Minute Remaining, which was released on May 19, 2025, you, for reasons unclear to us, spoke at extraordinary length about your colonics and the subject of colonoscopy. You see your colon is fit material for public discussion, but prefer not to talk about the Cathal People. Is there a reason for this this? Are you embarrassed by the Cathal People and your self appointed role as Ami Samyan? Have you achieved the results you hoped for? When you began writing and speaking of the Cathal People, you made reference to having millions of supporters. Can you send us any evidence to support this claim? We have seen no evidence of this and indeed have seen evidence to the contrary. Let us return for a moment to the one minute remaining podcast. When we look at their programs on YouTube, we see that about the same time they did a series on youn, they also did one on a man named Marcellus Williams. The most popular episode of that series earned 39,000 views. The most popular episode of their series on youn has to date earned 619 views. To state the obvious, 619 is a far smaller number than 39,000. I would expect a man with millions of supporters to attract an audience quite a bit higher than that. Where are your millions of supporters and how exactly does their support manifest itself? We also note that you did not answer our questions about whether you would say you are guilty if it meant you could be released under a hypothetical expansion of a recent Michigan Supreme Court decision. We asked this question in particular because your wife Paula suggested that that might be a possibility in a recent interview online with Joy Murray Mann. This surprised us as we believe it is the first time we have seen a suggestion from someone on Team Kinzu that you would ever be willing to concede your guilt. We also found it of interest that in a now deleted Facebook post from earlier this month, month Paula wrote, if that revelation that Kinzer was not guilty doesn't come in this life, it will in the next. Do you agree with your wife that the exoneration you have been demanding for decades may never happen in this life? We do not understand what exactly you are trying to suggest about our relationship. Are you trying to suggest that our relationship is somehow comparable to the abusive relationships you have had with girls in their teens? Will you answer our question about your relationship with Denise slash Amiko? And of course, we did not give the opportunity to send that Mr. Tanzu.
- [170:54]
A
No, the Dragon of the Cathal blocked us. I just find it fascinating. But I do want to dissect a little bit of what he said. I think we hit a nerve with the cult thing. That's pretty. He reacted very strongly and sent back a whole new response, threatening to sue us if we mention it.
- [171:10]
B
Basically, we have the First Amendment right to say what we think about this cult, including disparage it. But for the record, I disparage it.
- [171:18]
A
It's ridiculous.
- [171:19]
B
I'll say this. At this date, we have a copy of that absurd book.
- [171:24]
A
We do.
- [171:25]
B
And it is just about the dumbest thing I've ever read.
- [171:28]
A
Yeah, it's really disturbing, actually. But, you know, I guess it's just really interesting. He's gotten. Again, when we talk about patterns, when we talk about this is what he does to people. He's trying the same playbook with us. Us. He doesn't have any power in this situation. It's not going to work. But it's very much a. You know, I'm not going to. I'm not going to like, tell you. Like, a more sophisticated personality would probably respond with, I'm going to tell you my side of it. I don't like your reporting. But, you know, or. Or something like not. Or just not respond at all. That's one option. Or say I. Something short of like, I don't respect you. Goodbye, guy. I. I would see all that as like, kind of like a normal response. This is just like he's trying to scare us about. He's gonna sue us. He's gonna put liens on our house. He's going to. He's gonna expose our twisted relationship, which, like, again, what. I. I wouldn't pull that. I. Given what we found out about his relationships, with women, it's just kind of shocking. It's just like, like, I don't know, there's that impulse to just try to control through threats, and that's kind of what we see here. And it's amusing in a way, in a way, because we're not concerned about ourselves. But it is sad to think about all the people throughout all the years who have gone through something like this, and they've probably felt very alone. They've probably felt like whatever he was threatening to do, in this case, it's just lawfare. But in other cases, it would have been, I'm gonna murder your family. And so I, I, my heart goes out to people who went through that with him, because I imagine that was terrifying. And imagine it's like, you don't have to believe he actually is part of a ninja council to believe that he's capable of this stuff. He's a very angry person, you know, I, I guess that's all there is to say. Was there anything that stuck out to you in any of this? I thought it was interesting that he immediately came back with, like, don't make fun of my tight podcast. Like, who cares? We were, I mean, like, we sometimes make fun of people's typos, but, I mean, like, everyone has typos.
- [173:32]
B
Again, everybody has typos.
- [173:34]
A
That's not the main issue here.
- [173:35]
B
That's not why I say he's not an intelligent man.
- [173:38]
A
He's like a poor, he talks like a poorly written villain. You know, he's like, monologuing.
- [173:42]
B
He's not an intelligent man for many other reasons. He's not a man worthy of respect, and he's not a man worthy of the adulation of millions of Team Kinsey. There, there are people, all five of them or whatever.
- [173:57]
A
I mean, it's definitely not millions. I, I don't like.
- [174:00]
B
Yeah, it mystifies me. There's people out there who've spoken of ethics and true crime, and they don't apply those standards to this case.
- [174:07]
A
I don't understand with, with this. I think most of. I, I will say I'm just looking at, like, the numbers and looking at what's happened. I think most people have moved on from Kenzu, who were supporters in the beginning. I think people came into this with open, open minds and open hearts, and they were told some things and it made them think, this guy's innocent. We need to support him. And none of this bad stuff had come out. And I commend those people. Those are people who are, like, doing their best and they're getting information and that's all great.
- [174:37]
B
What I don't get and what baffles me are the people who've now been presented with all this information and say no. The thuggish rapist woman abusing guy who threatens to destroy everybody around him. Him. That's, that's where I want to put all my chips. That's the guy I want to support.
- [174:57]
A
I think most of the, I think most of them have gone. I think it's a very small, you know, I don't think there's a significant group left. I really don't. I think. And honestly, like a lot of this stuff is indefensible. So I think there's people who are like intellectually honest where they're like, hey, I can't really quite get there with guilt because maybe I just want there to be more stuff, you know, I want there to be more evidence. Fine. But I don't see a lot of them really even defending this guy anymore because they're like, I can't be a support of this. Like, I can't be like, you know, this like, guy obviously harmed a lot of people.
- [175:26]
B
I see some people still defend him.
- [175:27]
A
Well, I guess some people do, but I'm just saying I think it's, I think it's really dwindled. I think, and I think it's interesting that this guy is still claiming to this idea that he has a following in the millions because it's, it kind of, that's something to preserve his own ego, which ultimately is what he worships is his own ego, is his own sense of being this powerful. You know, I think it's really amusing that a guy, I mean, forget we've, we've interviewed Lena and then we had, we read the transcript of G's interview on our show. These are women who are really impress oppressive and they overcame a lot in life. But like to say that like you have a convicted murderer be complaining about their bad choices. It's like, sir, you're literally incarcerated for killing a man. Like there's kind of no worse choice. In some ways it just kind of, there's a real disconnect there. And I think like for him trying to maintain some sort of feeling of control and feeling of power is very important. But.
- [176:29]
B
Well, you did a great job putting this episode together.
- [176:32]
A
Thank you. And I will just say this. I, I, we're not, we don't, we don't you guys know this at this point. We, we not, we don't threaten us like, we we're not. We do not. We know our rights. We know what our rights are as journalists. We know our rights as our, as commentators. We know our rights to discuss things under the First Amendment. It's pretty clear. Clear. We are. We are. We. The reason we're reaching out to him in the first place is because even though we think he's a pretty vile person, we, if we get something wrong, we want to correct it. And if he's going out and saying, oh, they don't care about my side and they're get lying about me, well, what do you say we're lying about? If you're right, we will correct it. Or if you feel, even if you feel we're being unfair, what are we being unfair about? We'll put your side out there. Yes. He has no interest in putting that out there. He just wants to whine and scream, dream.
- [177:21]
B
And I, I don't know if we'll end up doing an episode on his religion is. It's. To be honest, it's not that interesting. But we have the book.
- [177:30]
A
It feels like some guy like, kind of like stole a bunch of stuff from Buddhism but made himself like the Jesus Christ of Buddhism, like the chosen one who's like the son of God and, you know, is going to lead everyone into prosperity. It's like a mishmash of a bunch of weird stuff.
- [177:46]
B
I, I think it's fair to say there, there, there at least a couple of episodes on Mr. Kinzu coming out next month that I think will be of interest.
- [177:54]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah. But I think this one is the one that we were hoping that at least, you know, people can, can hear it and understand where everyone's.
- [178:03]
B
Anya, put it together, did a great job.
- [178:05]
A
Well, thank you, Kevin. I hope our, I hope our disgusting relationship isn't exposed that we talk about all the time on the show and joke about. It's very threatening. All right, well, thank you all so much for listening.
- [178:18]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [178:38]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [179:02]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [179:13]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.