The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: The Police Investigation

Summary

Murder Sheet Podcast Episode Summary

Title: The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kinzu: The Police Investigation
Release Date: July 22, 2025
Hosts: Áine Cain (Journalist) and Kevin Greenlee (Attorney)

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Introduction to the Case

In this deep-dive episode, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee continue their exploration of the harrowing true crime case—the murder of Scott Macklem—committed by Temujin Kinzu. Building upon their previous investigations, the hosts introduce newly acquired police materials, including 115 pages of police reports and 138 pages of attachments from the Port Huron Police Department.

Kevin Greenlee [07:08]:
"We contacted the Port Huron, Michigan Police Department. The murder of Mr. Macklem occurred in Port Huron, and we asked them to send us whatever investigative materials they had in their files that they were allowed to share."

Unveiling the Police Investigation

The hosts emphasize that the materials received are not exclusive, mentioning that other podcasts may have access to similar documents. They clarify that some documents reference Kinzu by various aliases, leading them to consistently refer to him as "Kinzu" for clarity.

Áine Cain [06:11]:
"We were always going to refer to Temujin Kinzu as Temujin Kinzu because that's apparently the name he likes using at the moment."

Upon reviewing the documents, Áine and Kevin express frustration over the lack of comprehensive coverage by traditional media, which predominantly portrayed Kinzu sympathetically and failed to critically analyze the evidence against him.

Áine Cain [07:25]:
"From nearly the outset of this case, the traditional media outlets in Michigan have essentially swallowed wholesale the defense's framing of a wrongful conviction and not analyzed or really looked into that at all."

Evidence of Kinzu’s Manipulative Behavior

A significant portion of the episode focuses on the disturbing pattern of Kinzu's behavior, particularly his obsession with vehicles and weapons. The hosts read excerpts from the police reports that reveal Kinzu's suspicious activities, such as changing license plates and operating multiple vehicles linked to him.

Áine Cain [14:32]:
"Scott had been concerned about Kinzu's unusual behavior. On one occasion, Scott had been over to Kinzu's cottage in Lakeport and had observed these license plates affixed on a red opal, a blue Olds Cutlass, and a motorcycle."
[14:38]
"These plate numbers were turned over to Sanilac County Deputy Hall after the death of Scott Macklem."

Further testimonies highlight Kinzu's history of threats and violence. Multiple individuals recount instances where Kinzu threatened to kill them or their loved ones if they did not comply with his demands, including providing alibis.

Kevin Greenlee [33:13]:
"He threatened to kill her and their three-year-old daughter if she ever tried to leave him or tell anyone anything about him."

Critique of Media Narratives and Public Misconceptions

Áine and Kevin vehemently criticize the prevailing narratives that downplay Kinzu’s guilt or attempt to exonerate him by introducing unfounded speculations about Scott Macklem’s character and associations.

Kevin Greenlee [09:36]:
"People say, well, maybe Scott Macklem was involved in something else, but there's no evidence that Scott was involved with drugs or anything else nefarious. So let's not pretend."

The hosts address the rampant misinformation and attempts to smear Crystal, Scott's fiancée, who bravely testified against Kinzu, by unfounded claims suggesting she might have had motives to cast Scott in a bad light.

Áine Cain [21:37]:
"She is the whipping girl for that reason. And by doing so, she saved lives. But she's being smeared for it."

Revealing Kinzu’s Extortion and Witness Tampering

A crucial aspect discussed is Kinzu's manipulation of witnesses to fabricate alibis, which played a significant role in his conviction. The hosts detail how Kinzu used threats and intimidation to coerce witnesses into supporting his false narratives.

Kevin Greenlee [70:03]:
"He was manipulating them in order to get them to provide alibis for him."

Áine Cain [86:02]:
"Kinzu called around multiple witnesses, including the witness who then called his friends in an attempt to solidify Kinzu's alibi, thus tainting the alibi."

Addressing Domestic Abuse and Rape Allegations

The episode does not shy away from discussing the severe allegations of domestic abuse and rape against Kinzu. Áine passionately argues against dismissing these claims, emphasizing the consistent and corroborated testimonies of multiple women who suffered at his hands.

Áine Cain [82:00]:
"Women who have been through that don't always disclose immediately, especially when being threatened and abused. Dismissing their experiences is not only offensive but also harmful."

Kevin Greenlee [91:28]:
"I believe these women, and I believe Temujin Kinzu is a monster."

Call for Responsible True Crime Reporting

Concluding the episode, Áine presents a series of recommendations for true crime content creators to ensure responsible and ethical reporting. She underscores the importance of addressing all facets of the case, including the multiple victims of Kinzu, his pattern of manipulation, and the significant legal rulings that have upheld his conviction.

Áine Cain [85:08]:
"We need to address the multiple women who have come forward with stories of rape, coercion, domestic abuse, financial abuse by Temujin Kinzu. We cannot keep whitewashing this as a true crime community."

Kevin Greenlee [76:43]:
"We live in the real world. Let's look at the evidence which does exist, which has been uncovered over the years by police and by Kinzu's investigators. Let's look at that and stop the stupid speculations."

Final Reflections

Both hosts express a deep sense of frustration and determination to shed light on the truth of Scott Macklem's murder and the extensive abuse perpetrated by Kinzu. They call on listeners to support their efforts in honoring Scott's memory and holding Kinzu accountable.

Áine Cain [84:44]:
"We need to demand people do better in true crime. This is where we start. You can still think he's innocent, but you don't get to throw away all of the discussion of abuse, rape, and domestic violence just because it hurts your preferred narrative."

Kevin Greenlee [100:50]:
"We live in the real world. We don't live in the world of make-believe."

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Notable Quotes:

• Kevin Greenlee [07:08]:
  "We will continue to report on it. But the more I learn, the more appalled I am."

• Áine Cain [21:37]:
  "Crystal is the whipping girl for that reason. And by doing so, she saved lives."

• Áine Cain [85:08]:
  "We need to address the multiple women who have come forward with stories of rape, coercion, domestic abuse, financial abuse by Temujin Kinzu."

• Kevin Greenlee [76:43]:
  "Let's look at the evidence which does exist, which has been uncovered over the years by police and by Kinzu's investigators."

Conclusion

Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee deliver a compelling and thorough examination of the Scott Macklem murder case, meticulously dissecting newly obtained police documents and countering misleading narratives surrounding Temujin Kinzu. Their unwavering commitment to uncovering and presenting the truth serves as a poignant reminder of the importance of responsible journalism in true crime storytelling.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

So as I'm sure most of you are aware, we did a series of episodes recently on the murder of Scott Mackley. That crime was committed by a man now known as Temujin Kinzu, and we explored why we believe that he is the guilty man in some detail. We said at the time we did those episodes that it was our intent to continue to do future episodes. And here's another episode on it we contacted the Port Huron, Michigan Police Department. The murder of Mr. Maglem occurred in Port Huron, and we asked them to send us whatever investigative materials they had in their files that they were allowed to share. And they did. They sent us, I believe, like 115 pages of police reports, 138 pages of attachments to those reports. And I should say at the outset that this is not exclusive material. I'm aware of at least one other podcast who was given this material. I'm not sure if what they presented from it or in how much detail, but there's certainly a number of things in here that we feel are worth talking about, and we will do so.

[Anya Cain]

My name is Anya Cain, I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is the Murder of Scott Macklem, the Guilt of Temujin Kinzu, the police investigation right at the outset. I want to mention a couple of quick notes, as we did in our previous episodes. We were always going to refer to Temujin Kinzu as Temujin Kinzu because that's apparently the name he likes using at the moment. But over the course of his life, he's used a number of other names and aliases, and there are occasions when he is referred to by those other names or aliases in these police documents. So just to avoid confusion, whenever we see him refer to by another name, we're just going to change it to Temjen Kinzu or Kinzu.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Some of these documents will probably paraphrase and not read. Exactly. I mentioned that as well. That's just more for clarity and not to change meaning. One thing about these documents is when they came to us, they were already redacted to remove personal information about people and witnesses. And so because of that, I think we will likely be able to post these in our group.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we want to review them first just to make sure there's nothing that slipped through the cracks. But I think these are things that we would want the public to have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, I think there's some interesting stuff in here that is worthy of discussion. And speaking of discussion, there has been lately quite a bit of discussion online about this case and about the information we have presented about the case, much of which has not been given attention or coverage in the past. And certainly we've gotten emails from people who, frankly, are upset by that, who feel they've been sold a bill of goods because so much information about this case was not presented to them and they feel duped into believing something that was not true.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, the. From this. From nearly the outset of this case, and frankly, the predominant actors in this being the traditional media outlets in Michigan, there's been. The tone has been essentially Kenzu as the victim of the case and. And sort of assuming and. And swallowing wholesale the defense's framing of a wrongful conviction and not analyzing or really looking into that at all. And so that's how it's been, and that's how it's been going. And this is. I mean, we. I'm shocked knowing what we know now. I'm absolutely shocked that it feels like in many respects, we are the first to critique that or come with a, you know, a definitive viewpoint that's different from that, because I don't understand how that's happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't understand either. And I would say if you've been duped, don't feel bad. And if you've covered the case, let's just all try to cover the case more fairly and more accurately in the future. And I think Anya's gonna talk about that at the end of the show.

[Anya Cain]

At the end of the show. I have some suggestions, some polite suggestions, and I do wanna say at the outset that to me, it's really not about guilt or innocence anymore, because we feel very strongly that this is a guilty man who's exactly where he needs to be. But I would say that people can feel differently and they can come to a different viewpoint. What I'm asking for is more. More factual, eliminating things that are incorrect or harmful and bringing up things that are helpful and that can. That can have a whole host of diverse viewpoints from people thinking, well, I don't know if it still rises to the point where I would vote guilty, that's fine. That's an intellectually honest position to take. I have no issue with that. It's not about making everyone adopt our viewpoint. It's more about how can we cover this in a way that's not, like, disgusting and toxic for victims of rape and domestic violence. So that's what I'll be talking about. It's going to be more general than just, oh, everyone should agree with our take. No, that's not necessary. But it is necessary that we cover this responsibly and don't platform a bunch of harmful stuff that kind of is bad. But we'll get into that later.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We'll get into that later. Certainly, I've seen a number of arguments in this case that in my mind, are intellectually dishonest, to say the least, if not downright offensive. One of them is people say, yes, this obviously was a targeted crime. Whoever did this was targeting Scott Macklem. And yeah, we have a person who was threatening him and had a history of rape and domestic violence. But maybe Scott Macklem was involved in other bad stuff, too, and maybe that's what caused the murder to happen. And golly, maybe if the police had just turned over one more story, they would have found this alleged evidence of Scott being involved in something else. And I just want to say that is profoundly stupid.

[Anya Cain]

Whoa.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And it's really offensive because you're dragging this man's name through the mud, this murder victim's name through the mud. And I shouldn't have to say this, ladies and gentlemen, but we live in the real world. And in the real world, we look at the evidence we have. We don't speculate and say, oh, maybe this evidence exists, and maybe if someone did something else, they may have stumbled across some other evidence. That's not how it works. We look at the evidence we have. And the evidence we have is that the only person who was stalking and threatening Scott Macklem was Temujin Kinzu. And the evidence we have is that this young man, this murder victim, was an upright citizen who did not do anything wrong other than to date someone that Temujin Kinzu considered to be his property. And it is just.

[Anya Cain]

Which isn't wrong. He should have dated her. They were, they were young and in love. I mean, it's like a. Like, it's just that this weirdo, that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Was his only high risk choice.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, which. It shouldn't have been high risk.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It shouldn't have been high risk.

[Anya Cain]

This guy doesn't hates women.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I also want to say that ever since the murder, people connected to Mr. Kinzu have spent a great deal of time and effort to try to prove that Mr. Macklem, Scott Macklem, was involved in something nefarious. And they've come up with absolutely nothing. You've heard on our program that Herb Wellser, an investigator for the defense, conceded there's no evidence that Scott Macklem was involved with drugs or anything else nefarious. So let's not pretend. Oh, golly, if they had turned over one more stone or turned over one more page, the police would have found something. That is a stupid argument and it's intellectually dishonest.

[Anya Cain]

I just want to add to that. Like, you know, I'm. I mean, listen, if. If there's some mud to drag a victim's name through, like, we have to go where the evidence is. And if there's evidence of, of some drug dealing or some high risk behavior or some feud with a different person, I'm all for bringing that up. Maybe it's painful to the victim's family, maybe it's, it's upsetting for those who knew him, but you gotta bring that up. But you don't just get to say, well, we didn't find any of that, but what if it existed? It's like. But you didn't find it. So what are we talking about here? Like, it's like. It's like a con racket at this point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We live in the real world. Let's look at the evidence we have. Let's not use our imaginations and try to imagine other evidence.

[Anya Cain]

And let's be very clear. We live in the real world. We don't live in an Agatha Christie novel. You don't get to say, well, the police didn't find it, but they didn't look hard enough. If the police have a good suspect, they're going to look at that person. They're not going to waste a bunch of time, you know, doing Somersaults trying to find. Oh, well, everyone says that Scott wasn't involved in drugs, but what if he was? Like, you have to go where the evidence is. It's not play pretend they're not writing a novel where you have to go through a bunch of twists and turns to get to the ultimate. Like, it's a. It's a. It's a facetious argument. It sounds good, and it sounds like something that's easy to repeat all over the Internet. But it is facetious.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. And along those lines, I just wanted to mention that there's material in these files that indicates some have suggested, oh, maybe it was someone else who was actually stalking and threatening Scott. Maybe Crystal had a mysterious other ex boyfriend who was making these threats. Who knows? There's evidence in these files, including some stuff we read before about a time when Scott was stalked in his place of employment by a man later identified by people who witnessed it as Temujin Kinzu. And there is also another incident here that I wanted to share with you. And I'm going to read it. I'm going to note again that this material has been redacted. I guess whenever there was a redaction, we should say blank.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Or redaction.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Or redaction. Do you want Anya to read this thing at the top of page three of our notes?

[Anya Cain]

Sure thing. So this is the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It begins on the above date.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, I'm gonna zoom in so I don't mess this up. All right, so quote on the above date. These investigators responded to the office of Redacted in Croswell and talked with Redacted and his wife. Redacted and also redacted in regards to the license numbers that have been turned over to Redacted. Redacted stated that Scott had been concerned about redacted's relationship with John Lamar.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's Temujin Kinsey.

[Anya Cain]

That is Temujin Kenzu. As Redacted had indicated to him about Lamar's, AKA Temujin Kenzie's unusual behavior. On one occasion, sometime in the latter part of the summer of 86, Scott had been over to Kenzo's cottage in Lakeport and had observed these license plates affixed on a red opal, a blue Olds Cutlass and a motorcycle. So jotted the plates down and gave them to Redacted to see if she could have an acquaintance try to get the ownership on these. Scott had indicated to his mother that he believed these license plates were being switched around on different vehicles. Scott also conveyed to his mother that he Felt these vehicles were driving past their home on various occasions, mostly at night. These plate numbers were. Were turned over to Sanilac County Deputy hall after the death of Scott Macklem.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's stop there. So basically, Mr. Macklem is sleuthing his own murder before it happens.

[Anya Cain]

He's like. I mean, because, I mean, let's just be clear. Switching license plates is almost certainly what happened when it came to Kenzu's mode of transport in this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he has clearly witnessed suspicious activity in front of his home, People driving past his home in suspicious ways. And he is specifically linking it to vehicles under the control of Mr. Kinzu. So this again is yet more evidence, as if we even needed it, that he was being threatened and stalked by this man, Mr. Kinzu.

[Anya Cain]

Can I. Can I keep reading to show what they found here?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. Okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Cain]

Quote, and in turn furnished to these investigators, these plates were found to be on vehicles registered to a redacted. These being a Honda motorcycle. Redacted. And an Olds Cutlass and a red Opal registered to. Redacted. Redacted. Didn't put proper plates on the vehicles. The Olds and the Opal had been observed by these investigators on a prior visit to the. To the button area. The motorcycle, according to info supplied by redacted, is presently at redacted Honda shop in Flint for work to be done on it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So that's it.

[Anya Cain]

So and what. What it's. Yeah. And quote, it is believed that the defendant had acquired the Olds and Cycle from redacted. So they have a sense of where he got them from. And we're seeing these. These plates switching. And that he has connected with people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Who are kind of harassing him and threatening him.

[Anya Cain]

But no, that. That Kenzie is connected with people who are supplying him and furnishing him with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Vehicles, which is very crucial.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's talk more about cars. As we know, Kinzer, after shooting Scott Macklem to death, Kinzu drove away in a vehicle that has never been found. So let's talk about Kinzu and his relationship, for lack of a better word, with cars.

[Anya Cain]

Do you want me to read this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let me just. There's a part of it we want to read later, but I think this one I'll just read a person who knew Mr. Kinzu and didn't want anything further to do with him. He said, quote, kinzu has a number of friends all around, and he is always borrowing cars and is always changing cars. The car could be from almost anywhere and belong to almost anyone. That's an interesting pattern. Of behavior.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think it's a pretty significant pattern of behavior given the nature of this crime.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I also want to read an excerpt here. This is from an interview the police did with a woman who'd had a previous relationship with Mr. Kinzu. Quote, in talking to redacted, she stated that Temujin had a lot of girlfriends, that he always has girls who have money or would have to give him money, and they had cars because he would like to take and drive their cars, which she stated would have been many different cars or trade them where they could drive his car. So as long as he had one of their cars to drive. End quote. So again, a pattern of behavior where he is accessing and using a wide variety of vehicles. And if Mr. Macklem's observations are accurate, he's also changing the license plates on those vehicles from time to time.

[Anya Cain]

Seems kind of significant.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And talking about borrowing cars and stuff, certainly a pretty big issue in his relationship with Crystal was that he always wanted her car keys.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Always wanted to use her car.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Which sounds weird, but not in the context of a guy who's first of all violent and expects to get what he wants, but. But also a guy who is consistently switching up cars for, you know, reasons that are not exactly super clear.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And there's another thing. I don't think we need to read it. It's basically saying the same thing. Someone is saying he has this habit of borrowing cars and using other people's cars.

[Anya Cain]

So it's not just. What you're saying is it's not just one person making this odd claim. It's multiple people saying, oh, yeah, that's what Kenzoo does.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Exactly. People. People have really treated Crystal horribly. This is a young woman who was beaten and raped and terrorized and who had the man she wanted to spend the rest of her life with brutally murdered. And she was brave enough to go and stand up and face that man in court and tell the truth. And her words brought justice to this case. But ever since then, she has been smeared and slimed in the press and she has been harassed. And some people who do that think they're acting for whatever, I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

For justice for Tennessee, maybe.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Some people who have done some of those things have gotten inaccurate information or incomplete information and believe something about her that isn't so. But she told the truth. The defense investigator told us, I have no evidence she lied. And as we're going to hear in this program, a number of other people have stories very, very similar to the story Crystal told She told the truth and people smeared her for it.

[Anya Cain]

People continue to do so.

[Kevin Greenlee]

People continue to do this. There's this self published book on Mr. Kinzu that just came out and there is a section on that where the person says, well, I'm not saying Crystal killed him, but here's the reasons why she. It's suspicious. There's no reason why it's suspicious.

[Anya Cain]

It's disgusting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's disgusting. I'm sorry, don't be a rape apologist.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, don't be that. I think don't be a rape apologist should probably be like something you shouldn't have to say within true crime. But I think it's worth stating here because a lot of people are rape apologists in this case and I, I agree. Crystal is always touted out. Crystal's the whipping girl of this case for people because she's the person who puts tem in prison, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And by doing so she saved lives.

[Anya Cain]

And by doing so she saved lives. But let's just be clear. She's. She's the whipping girl for that reason. And I think a lot of people have the, the, the sort of wrong idea that, well, because she was so important, she was the only one to come forward about some of this stuff, right? So like that people are saying, oh well, you know, she's the only one who talks about the rape. She's the only one who talks about the physical abuse. She is the only one who talks about the ninja stuff.

[Kevin Greenlee]

All.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, isn't it so funny that all these hicks from Michigan didn't understand that he had an interest in Asian culture and they all maligned him for it and they all think it's about ninjas. Other people corroborated what she was saying. She's not coming out with this wild story that isn't backed up. And that's very clear from this police file. That's what's so shocking to me. It's clear from this police file this, that immediately people were saying, oh yeah, this weird stuff, I saw it too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

And of course, and, and, and anyone, I'm gonna say this. People joking about the ninja stuff, people joking about this and that, like, knock it off. Like if you're doing it out of ignorance, fine, but knock it off. And also apologize because I mean, this isn't funny. This is how her abuse took place. And over the course of our reporting, you're going to hear again and again that these same exact things, this is just what he was doing. It's bizarre and, but it's what he was doing. And it's not just Crystal saying that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don't blame the messenger.

[Anya Cain]

Don't shoot the messenger. And also, like, just be, to be clear, like, you're joking about somebody's experience being, like, tortured sexually and physically by a man for months. And she's not the only woman who went through that. And it's not appropriate. It's not funny. It's not ha ha, it's disgusting. And. And we feel really passionately, and this is what I'm going to get to in the end. We feel really passionately, like, if you're going to cover this case, cover it responsibly. Whatever conclusion you come to in the end, you don't get to essentially do this to. To people who are victims of rape and abuse, regardless of whether you think that's good or bad for your narrative.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we're talking about cars. What about the car that. Pardon me. That Mr. Kinzu was using at the time he was arrested? This was a 1977 Mercury Marquis. That car was searched. Anya, I'm on the top of page five. Why don't you tell us what they found in that car?

[Anya Cain]

Quote, On November 24, 1986, a search warrant was obtained to make search of the 1977 Mercury Marquis redacted which was the vehicle of the suspect had in his possession at the time of his arrest in Troy, Michigan. The inventory search made by the Troy police had indicated that army type articles were in the trunk of the vehicle on the above date. Detectives Bounds and Hudson responded to redacted located at redacted where the vehicle was impounded and did make search of the vehicle. An olive drab army type jacket was confiscated from the trunk of the vehicle, which is to be submitted to the crime lab for nitrate tests to be determined if there is presence of gunpowder residues on same. It was also found that the trunk contained a large inventory of army equipment such as ammo boxes, ammo clips and belts, blanket knives and martial arts swords and other devices. End quote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Cain]

But I guess he didn't open a gun, right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, he always says, oh, I'm a ninja, I'm a martial arts guy. Why would I have a gun? And clearly his car trunk had ammo boxes, ammo clips and belts. This is something that it would be hard to understand why you would have in your car if you did not have a gun or access to a gun. And of course, the green jacket that was found is identical to the one that Mr. Kinzu wore when he murdered.

[Anya Cain]

Mr. Macklem that witnesses described here's another point here. You might be thinking, well, just because he owned ammo and, you know, gun belts doesn't mean. And maybe he had a gun doesn't mean he's the murderer. Yeah, I agree. But why is he lying about owning guns?

[Kevin Greenlee]

He lies about everything, which is a pretty good tell for guilt.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So like, again, it's like people treat his word like it's the word of God and then they harass and malign everybody else involved in the case. But he's lying about basic things. He's lying about basic things here. This is proof of that. Why is he lying about. Why does he lie about having a gun? Where's the gun? You know, they have everything else associated with the gun. Where's the gun?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want to. We're talking about Mr. Kenzo and weapons, so let's, let's talk about him and guns. And I'm going to read a little bit from a report which is documenting a conversation the police had with a woman who had a rather serious relationship with Mr. Kenzo. This woman is not Crystal, but, but quote, quote, in talking to her about weapons, she stated that Kinzu did not own a shotgun that she knew of, but he always talked about wanting to own one and that he loves all kinds of weapons. So it is possible that from the time she had seen him that he did acquire a gun or a shotgun. In talking to her, we asked her if he had any guns. She stated that he had a duffel bag that was full of different kinds of guns. Although she did not see them, he did let her feel the bag and she did feel in the duffel bag what felt like a long gun of some type. And it was heavy and it was thick. End quote. So again, this is more people. It's not just Crystal, it's more people putting a gun in Mr. Kinzu's hand.

[Anya Cain]

Or at least putting a strong interest in acquiring that specific type of weapon that killed Scott, you know, in his mind to own. Like, again, why, if he, if he likes guns and he wanted to own a gun, why not just say that and just say, I didn't kill him? You know, like it's, it's not proof. It's not like, oh, that locks it down. But why lie about it? He wants to give everyone this idea that he's this peaceful kind of hippie rock and roll ninja guy or, you know, martial arts dude that's just, and it's not real.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's not real.

[Anya Cain]

He, he, he was, he was really into weapons. He's not honest about that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of people who have advocated for Mr. Kinzu have had to deal with the harsh realization that the person they are advocating for doesn't really exist because the Persona he has built up is utter fiction.

[Anya Cain]

It's complete fiction and it's embarrassing that it's taken us to freaking pierce that veil because it's really when you just look at his social media it's actually very much contradicts a lot of what he tries to portray out there in some of these interviews.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I want to talk some more about her Crystal's testimony. She talked about him saying that he was part of a ninja organization and such and as you mentioned people mocked her for that. He still mocker I want to read again. This is a quote I'll be reading from a woman, not Crystal, who had a lengthy relationship with Mr. Kinzu of a serious nature. In talking to Blank she stated Temujin did have a ninja suit and would put it on and be gone for approximately one hour or so and then returned and said that he was a member of a secret organization. Also talking to redacted about a ninja mask or a face mask. She stated she did not recall seeing one of those but that he did have a dark blue or a black knit cap that would roll up and roll down and he did have the eyes cut out of it when he pulled it down. Also she stated that he has a lot of military st and different kinds of weapons from ninja and karate arts and survival stuff from the military. She stated he does have army camouflage pants and the camouflage jacket plus he has a plain army green jacket. End quote. So she's describing first of all the same type of behavior that Crystal described the claims of being part of a secret ninja organization. She's describing more types of weapons he's interested in and she is also putting him in the clothes that the killer wore.

[Anya Cain]

There you go. I again I don't know I, I I just, I think it's really what there's like a there feels and I, I don't know this for a fact but I, I get the sense and it's just my intuition or whatnot or suspicion but like it seems sometimes like there's a bit of a Kenzu crisis communications firm going on here in social media. Sometimes you see or in our email people, people email us all sorts of angry things about this and, and like there's talking points that go out and then people are repeating that until you know it's debunked and then move on to the next thing don't address what you got wrong. Just move on. And what's interesting to me about that is that one thing we heard recently from some people who again emailed us was, well, I mean, yes, Crystal, you know, her story was backed up by these other women, but they only came forward years and years later. Could it be that they were actually just like trying to get some of that clout that I guess she got by, like being, you know, harassed for years and maligned in the mainstream press? You know, because obviously everyone would want some of that. Right. And to be very clear, women who were coming forward in that commutation hearing are coming forward in 1986 immediately after the murders and talking to police and giving them this information then about some of the abuse, about the weapons stuff, about the ninja stuff. They're one and the same. They're not just coming forward years later. Just because they weren't used in trial didn't mean that they weren't in these police reports. Yes, and I, I think that's really worth saying because I think implying that some of these women were coming forward in 2011 for their big moment. First of all, women, people tend to not come forward. Like that's not, that's not easy to do. That's like directly devastating to have to talk about some of this in the first place. But second of all, it's also just factually not true because they were coming forward and telling authorities what they knew. Then.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let'S continue with some more excerpts from this one particular woman's conversation with police. And again, if you recall what Crystal talked about in her testimony, this is going to sound very, very familiar. In talking to blank or redacted, she stated that Kenzie was very good at brainwashing people and threatening people to get what he wanted. She stated that he also threatened to kill her and their three year old daughter. Redacted if they ever left him or ever tried to tell anyone anything about him. He would also say that he had friends in high places who could always find anyone he was looking for and do something to them for him. She stated that when she was with Temujin that he did threaten to kill mother and any of her loved ones if she ever tried to leave him or told anything about him. End quote. This is exactly what Crystal testified to, that she was threatened by Temujin Kinzu. That if she ever tried to leave him or tell anybody what he was doing to her, she would pay consequences and her loved ones would pay consequences. It's the exact same thing.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to say something. This may sound controversial to some, maybe others agree, I don't know. But in my view, I think things like domestic abuse accusations and rape accusations need to be looked at very seriously. I'm not one of those people who says you need to believe everybody in every situation, because we've seen cases where accusations turn out not to be true and somebody has an agenda that they're trying to fulfill. I think that happens rarely. I don't think that's a common thing, but I do think it happens. And I also think there are other cases where there's just not enough, you know, evidence necessarily to prosecute. Doesn't mean something didn't happen, but it's just our system is set up in a way that it makes it pretty difficult with some of these accusations. This is not one of those cases. This is people saying, I went through the same exact modus operandi. They're talking to the police about it separately and saying, oh, yeah, no, this is what happened. And I think that's really powerful and significant. And I think hand waving that away should be impossible. Seems like it's not impossible for some people, but it should be impossible. Because when you have women who don't know each other, who all dated the same man, if you. If this is a situation where is another reality. And Timidjin Kenzie is the model boyfriend for so many different people, and then suddenly someone's coming forward with like, hey, he did all this really wild stuff. I don't think you should dismiss that person. I think you should see if there's evidence for it. Because sometimes people might treat one victim differently and other people in a different way. But I. I could understand people being more skeptical about that because it's like he has this track record with women where he's a gentleman, he's very nice, and maybe he cheated on one of them, but, like, he doesn't hurt people, you know, physically or anything like that. And I can understand the skepticism here, but there's. There's not really room for skepticism here because you see again and again and again, women who are with him romantically saying the same exact things in terms of the very specific violent and disturbing relationship they had with him and that he's controlling and that he's telling them not only is he going to kill them, he's going to kill their families. So I. I don't understand where the skepticism is coming from here. I really don't. I guess. Are they all just lying just to keep a good man down? Because that's what he would want people to believe. But I don't believe that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't believe it either. So another part of Pardon me of Crystal's testimony that was particularly explosive is she told an anecdote where Mr. Kinzu brandished or wanted to brandish a weapon at Crystal's sister. And this basically put the shotgun, the murder weapon in Kinzu's hand. And Kinzu says I'm not a gun guy, I'm a martial arts guy. And so what I think was particularly shocking about these files is there's someone else who tells a completely different story that also has Temujin Kinzu brandishing a weapon in a threatening manner as someone a gun. And so it is not just Crystal who puts a gun in this murderer's hands. It is another person. And it is an incident where I'm going to read a little bit here. Quote Redacted did state that his car did get away from him. He did strike the fence. He stated an unknown subject came up to him and had a revolver and pointed this revolver at him and redacted stated at which time he stated to the subject, what are you going to do, shoot me for hitting a fence at this time? Redacted told the subject that if he wanted to hook that they could get out and hook. And the subject just stated to him, I'll hook ya this time. Redacted stated that redacted of Redacted came out of the house along with redacted and stated to redacted that he had called the sheriff's department and the subject did take off and this person was Temujin Kinzu.

[Anya Cain]

So wait, what exactly happened there? There's a lot of redactions in there. So can you boil down that incident.

[Kevin Greenlee]

To like it's bare bones, somebody hits a fence, Temujin Kinzu comes out with a gun and is very angrily basically threatening the person who hit the fence. Someone calls, says hey, police are on their way. Temujin leaves.

[Anya Cain]

Okay, so that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That, that particular report, it doesn't identify that person as Temujin. But subsequent reports do identify the man who had the gun and was threatening the driver with it is Temujin. Here's something where Temujin Kenzu did apologize for having a gun down at the scene of the accident. Redacted stated at this time that there was something said about that they did not like people running around pointing guns and playing Rambo. So Temujin Kinzu by his own admission is stating that he was the one who threatened this person who hit a fence and he threatened him with a gun. And someone says, oh, that's like running around pointing guns and playing Rambo.

[Anya Cain]

So can I also, Can I go back a little bit just for a second, because I, we're getting onto guns. I want to go on to ninjas for a second. Can I mention that?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure.

[Anya Cain]

This is from the woman that we were talking about earlier who was talking about the brainwashing and a couple of other things. She talked about how, quote, he wanted her to be his ninja girl, end quote. And that he would have her do all these ninja trainings, ninja acts and exercises, and if, quote, she failed to do them properly, then he would make her get down on the floor and do 20 push up for punishment for not being able to perform the acts he wanted her to do in the martial arts and ninja. She stated when this. End quote. This was happening when this woman was four months pregnant with his child. He's making her do all these stupid exercises and ninja acts and trying to train her to be his ninja girl and he's having her do this. And the implication is if she's not doing what he wants, he's going to beat, beat her. So I, I do not want to hear any more ninja jokes from anybody on this. Anyone bemusedly commenting on, like, you know, this is not a cultural clash between the erudite Temujin Kenzu is interested in world culture and the backwards Port Huron jury that doesn't understand that this is a guy who has been claiming to be a ninja, talking about ninja stuff, constantly has ninja weapons, is abusing people over ninja related nonsense, and he is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Running outside of his house threatening people with a gun when they, when they.

[Anya Cain]

You know, bust up his fence a bit. That's nuts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's nuts.

[Anya Cain]

He's a ticking time bomb. That's all you see in these pages. He's a ticking time bomb until he kills a guy because he feels like we can get away with it because he's smarter than everyone else and people have enabled him for forever.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he's not a smart man. People act like, oh, this guy is smart. But if you ever listen to an interview with him, which I do not recommend, he is not a smart man. And if you read transcripts of different things, he said, this is not an intelligent man. Go look at his Facebook page. He is not an intelligent man.

[Anya Cain]

Look at his Twitter.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't find him charming at all either. I don't know how he has gotten so many people under his spell so completely. I don't know why. So Many people choose to believe him over the women he has repeatedly victimized.

[Anya Cain]

People hear the wrongful conviction story first, become immediately convinced based on a short summary that's incredibly misleading, that he's innocent. And then they basically work backwards to try to keep feeling that way even after they see him doing some of the stuff he's doing or saying some of the stuff he's saying. I'm convinced that that's it. And then people who are not as locked into that immediately are like, wait, actually that does sound pretty bad. And then come off it. But there's a certain type like where you, you people, it's a sunk cost fallacy. They've gotten so into it and they can't get out. Maybe they, maybe they're scared he's going to lash out of them. I don't know, like, but either way, I mean, he can't hurt you, he's in prison, he can say mean things about you online. But that's significantly minor compared to what the women who've had to deal with him have gone through over the years.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I want to say that the people who accuse Crystal of lying, they often go to ridiculous and downright offensive extremes. Extremes that are obscenely offensive. I have seen people say online, including, well, I won't say who, but I've seen people say online that, well, we don't really even know if Crystal was really engaged to Scott. Maybe she's just saying that. The police files speak to this quote. In talking to Redacted, he stated that he got to school approximately 8:10am and the lot was about half full. Did not see anyone in the lot at all. Nothing out of the ordinary. In talking to Redacted, he stated that he knew Scott for seven or eight years and have been good friends. He stated that Scott was just a great guy, had no enemies in the world and would help anyone at any time. Also that the victim was to be getting married this January, end quote. So further evidence for anybody crazy enough to think you need it. This was a couple that was engaged and were planning a life together.

[Anya Cain]

I. Again, it's like we've pointed out in our coverage over time, so many instances where Temujin is straight up lying. So I, I guess it's like maybe if the person accusing someone of being a liar is a liar themselves, then that should be taken into account and, and maybe people could actually just, I don't know, get the police report and figure it out for themselves that, you know, like read it, you know, go through, read every page, read all the reports, and then maybe some of these questions for them will be answered. Because I. I guess I'm just, like, baffled at how people are making accusations without fully comprehending all the information here. Because it's like, you know, if you're thinking, oh, well, how do we know he was really engaged? You know, she's been. She's been. She hasn't come out and said that on a podcast. So I don't know. It's in here. It's pretty clearly in here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I don't want to necessarily go into a lot of detail here, but there. There was so much in here about women he has threatened. I'm just gonna read excerpts here and there. Redacted stated that he threatened her to do bodily harm and also threatened to level or blow her house up, end quote. This one I thought was interesting. Quote, at this time and date, this investigator received a phone call from. Redacted. Redacted is the mother of. Redacted. Redacted stated that she'd received a phone call at about 1:30am and also at 9:30am redacted related to her mother that she has been threatened by Temujin Kenzu, who told her she better not leave him, and he expects her to provide an alibi for him, that he was 700 miles away at the time of the shooting, end quote.

[Anya Cain]

So here, interesting.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here we have someone reporting that Temujin Kinzu was basically threatening them in order to get them to provide an alibi for them. So a lot of stuff there. First of all, why would you be threatening people to provide you with an alibi if you were an innocent person, if Temujin Kinzer really did have all of these people far, far away who could report that he was elsewhere at the time of the shooting, why would he need to threaten a person to get one more such alibi? And it is also part of the pattern that we reported on, which I don't believe other people reported on for whatever reason, that Mr. Kin Tzu's alibi witnesses were manipulated by him. It's in the court record, it's in the files, that he was manipulating them in order to get them to provide alibis for him. And this is not a theory that Ania and I cooked up. This was mentioned in the court transcript, the trial transcript, and it was even cited by a juror as a reason why they ultimately chose to convict him.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but again, like, why The. The. I mean, people. People. I think we've heard from people. Well, you know, maybe he was just calling around because he was panicking and he want to make sure people remembered. Okay, I don't find that credible. I find it, but I find it even less credible in the context that he's actually threatening to kill this woman's parents if she doesn't give him a fake alibi for the shooting. That seems consciousness of guilt is. Is the phrase that comes to mind.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Here's another one. Redacted stated that Kinzu did control threats, violence, and beatings. He did at one time have her write approximately $5,000 in bad checks and made her give him all the money, or he threatened to kill her. Also, talking with redacted, she stated that she was beaten by Kinzer nearly every day and that she was like a prisoner in the house. And it's just, oh, later on, quote, Kinzer told her he was a member of a secret organization that did have to fight and take care of people. He redacted stated that he had all kinds of martial arts equipment and uniforms and that she did see a black ninja mask, or that is what Kinzu explained it was to her. So again, all of this stuff fits. And that's the thing about life. This doesn't just apply in courtrooms when people tell the truth. It fits together.

[Anya Cain]

It fits together. It's not an aberration. You know, again, I was telling Kevin the other day, we were talking about this. It was like, if, if I, if, if I was arrested on serial charges tomorrow for stealing cereal. And they wanted to say, well, I, we know she stole Captain Crunch because she's obsessed with pirates. And that somehow relates to the theme of, I don't know, nautical captains. You wouldn't be able to find any information about me being obsessed with pirates. Like, you wouldn't be able to find people saying, yeah, Hanyu was talking about pirates to concerning amount. You wouldn't be able to find, you know, my, my pirate vision board or my, like, pirate cosplay outfits where I'm going around pretending I'm Annie, Bonnie or Mary Reed. You know, this is a situation where you, you wouldn't be able to find much. So the claim would be stupid because there wouldn't be evidence to back it up. We have multiple people saying the same thing about his ninja interests over the years. So it's not like. It's just Crystal's coming up with this because she watched a ninja movie and got inspired to lie about a man. This is what people are saying about him. And again, to this day, he mocks her about it and acts like, isn't it wild that she said that? Everyone else said it, dude.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like everyone else said it. Maybe if someone ripped off a ninja movie for a fantasy, maybe it was Mr. Kenzo.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think it was Mr. Kenzo because he's just this mediocre guy. Never had a job. His basically job seems to be like abusing women and this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's, let's pull on that thread. Anya says he didn't seem to have a job.

[Anya Cain]

He's a loser.

[Kevin Greenlee]

How on earth did he support himself?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, you don't think it was because he was a really successful rock and roll singer?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, one aspect of his relations with women that is really not discussed very often at all is basically he used women to get him money. This is a quote in talking with Redacted, he stated that Kinthu has hurt a lot of people, beat a lot of people up. He stated that when he worked in Flint that he had a number of young girls working for him and making them bring him between 40 and $50 a day. He did not know how they threatened. He did not know how they obtained this money, but if they did not, he would beat them or threaten to kill them. Here's another from another person. When she and Temujin were in the state of Washington and they decided to come back to the state of Michigan, he brought a white female back with him. The reason he brought her back was that he would have redacted and redacted both out working for him by doing waitress work and going door to door collecting for charities and churches so they could bring all the money back and turn it over to him if they did not bring the money back or bring enough back that he stated he would kill them, that he did beat both of them many times. So he is living off of the work of these women that he is manipulating and controlling and threatening and beatings and beating. So when people say, oh, he didn't have any source of income, blah blah, blah, blah blah. He did have a source of income. It was the women he exploited.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Also he references, you know, I have always money. In the phone call between him and Crystal after Scott's death that police were listening in on, talks about, you know, I always, always have money. He always has money because he's always, he's extorting it from these women. And it's really, really disturbing to read about. And I guess I'm just like, I don't know, I. It's really surprising that this hasn't come out yet. This isn't like, this isn't a guy who is A normal guy who holds a job and is. Is abusive is. Is like just every girlfriend he's with, he abuses terribly and is an awful person. This is a guy who's like, abuse is part of his business. It's part of his. It's how.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Business plan.

[Anya Cain]

It's how he survives. He gets a woman, preferably young, preferably extremely young. Think teenagers. Think young teenagers. He gets them. He love bombs them. He brainwashes them to the point where they think they need to stick with him, cut off other people in their life, and he forces them to continue to comply even when they don't. Don't want to do things, by beating them and threatening them and threatening to kill other people and threatening to kill them. And he makes money off of them. I mean, this says waitressing, but, you know, whatever they can do to get that money or, you know, these phony charities and whatnot, they will do that to ensure that they will continue to survive. Like, this is what he does. He's a. He's a parasite. I don't think I've ever read about somebody whose life was made better by Temujin Kenzu encountering them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, he.

[Anya Cain]

He's like a human virus who goes from person to person and essentially makes them sick. Mostly women, but also the men around those women, you know, tend to come to harm because he's in their lives.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And they are victims. They are victims. I'm gonna digress a moment here. We've talked about when Mr. Kinzu was incarcerated. He actually married a woman named Denise. And from what I understand, she should be counted as one of his victims 100%. And from what I understand about that relationship and some of the details of it, she was manipulated and used. And so this is an open invitation. If there are people out here, out there listening, who would like to share with us Denise's story from their own perspective, Reach out. We can keep it confidential if you wish.

[Anya Cain]

That actually goes for any of these stories. You know, with Denise, it's kind of troubling because, you know, she was his advocate for many years, but it. It seems like her life, she was taken advantage of much in the same. Like, it's not that that just happened to her. It happened to these women before her. He exploits women for their time, their money, their energy, their youth, you know, for sex, for. For everything. And just because she was helping him does not make her not a victim. You know, yes, this is this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

She.

[Anya Cain]

She was victimized. And my heart goes out to her.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And Those close to Mr. Kinzu like his relationship with Denise was like a classic great love story, but they don't tell you details. Like for instance, at one point, Denise filed for divorce.

[Anya Cain]

She tried to get away from him and you know, and this was the grip he had over her even though he was imprisoned at the time. But she tried to get away from him. It's very sad if, if anyone has any connection with Temujin, just so you know, like, or. Or any of these women or whatnot, and you want to talk about it, it. We will keep you safe. We are not going to, we are not just going to like take your story and use it willy nilly. If you want to just talk off the record, that's fine. We're not here to exploit whatever you went through, but we do want to hear about it because we think it's really important that we. We learn as much as possible about this person and all the people he hurt. And I just, I mean, I can. I just like kind of get ahead of one thing or try to like ask you about one thing before we go on. Obviously it's difficult here because there's so many redactions, which is good because I want these people's privacy to be maintained as much as possible. But at the same time it makes it harder to tell. Are all of these coming from like the same one person or same two people?

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, there's different people.

[Anya Cain]

We have a very good sense of who a lot of these people are, even though they're redacted just because we've done the reporting. So I want to emphasize we're talking about like, like a lot of like, there's different people with different stories that are all backing each other up. Is that fair to say? Yes. This isn't like one ex wife that's like, yeah, I'm going to get revenge. And we're like just selectively quoting one person over and over again or two people over and over again. There's like a number of different people coming in here and saying this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. Okay, let's move on. There's another incident here. This is between, pardon me, Mr. Kinzu and a man. In this instance, someone asked this gentleman to get car keys back from Mr. Kinzu.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, car keys again.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And quote, at that point, Kinzu blew up and started yelling at him about being expected to walk, et cetera. He started calling, redacted, a gay slur and began to make threats of physical harm to him. Redacted. Said that he did not do anything to provoke that kind of conduct on Kinzu's part. Here's another one. Quote, redacted, refused to give his home address and phone number. He is the ex boyfriend of Kinzu's ex wife. In talking to redacted, Kinzu did attack him and there was a present court case pending on him in Oakland County. In talking to him, he stated that just two months ago when they were in the courtroom, Kinzu did make a lunge at him and told him that he was dead. Also in talking with redacted, he stated that Kinzu has hurt a lot of people, beat a lot of people up. He stated that when he worked in Flint that he had a number. I guess we already read that part.

[Anya Cain]

I have a question that that incident that you just read about the Pleasant Ridge situation and the Oakland county and the assault that against a man that was actually referenced in the commutation hearing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I believe, yes, this was a man who was romantically involved, I believe, with Mr. Kinzu's estranged wife and he basically attacked him.

[Anya Cain]

So we referred to that incident in that commutation hearing. But again, this is a situation where that man, when talking to police, immediately revealed all this back when the original.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Investigation does not just come up for the first time in 2010.

[Anya Cain]

This is not a situation where the prosecution was based just like on, you know, Crystal and what she has to say. And then, oh, wow, we learn all this stuff later. Let's put it out there. No, I mean, this was all a portrait of Temujin was becoming very clear very early on.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And here's something that wasn't in the commutation, there was yet another person, a man who faced threats because he was dating someone that Mr. Kinzer thought of as his own property. This is. Crystal had dated another person.

[Anya Cain]

Do you want me to read this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sure.

[Anya Cain]

So in starting with she further. Yes, quote. She further informed this officer that her sister dated a subject by the name of redacted Believe this is the first name of the subject. She states that this redacted subject had been beat up by this redacted at one time because he had dated redacted sister. She stated to the officer, this redacted subject works on a boat believed to be a lake freighter and that he lives with his father. A redacted on redacted, she states that this subject has had other contacts with the subject and may be able to provide additional information.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So there's a pattern here of Mr. Kinzu threatening people who are involved with women he thinks are his and particularly women who are involved with Crystal.

[Anya Cain]

And actually I met men who are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Involved with men who are involved with Crystal and they actually were able to track this person down. Anya, it's on page 18 of our notes. Do you want to read their conversation with him?

[Anya Cain]

Sure. So starting with the interview and then appeared redacted appeared at this office at the above time and date. Redacted stated that he first met Redacted at a wedding reception that they both attended in the year of 1985. The next encounter was in April of 1986, when Scott Macklem had introduced redacted to redacted and Scott indicated that Scott and redacted had broken up in their relationship at that point in time. End quote. So that's referring to one of the redacted. There's Crystal.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Crystal and Scott were together in high school and then broke up, but they remained friends afterwards. Quote redacted stated he then dated Redacted a few times, but the relationship was more or less casual and nothing heavy. Redacted stated that after the first week in May 86, he had to go back to Mississippi where he is employed on a ship that plies the river. At that time, he indicated to redacted that he realized that she was a young girl and he could not expect her to go out with others, to not go out with others while he was away. End quote. Can I just say, like, wow, like, what a. Like, like, it's nice when you're reading about a, a guy like Kenzou who's just the most chauvinist pig you could like. Like you look up the phrase chauvinist pig in the dictionary and his, his face is there. Like some mature young people and some mature young men dating each other, you know, dating girls in this time. It's just refreshing to read about, you know what I mean? Like, wow, this guy broke up with Crystal in a very responsible and normal way. Isn't that nice? I just wanted to single that out because it's just like shocking after you're reading about this other guy who basically acts like women are chattel for him. Okay, so, quote, Redacted stated that his job did give him time off every month so he could come back to visit. He stated that he came back that June and got in touch with Redacted and invited her out to lunch. During lunch, Redacted explained to redacted that she didn't want to continue dating. Redacted but wouldn't elaborate just why. However, in Redacted's mind, he felt redacted, depending on disposition, had changed 180 degrees from when he had last been with her. She appeared uptight about something. Three days after that, Redacted was at the Taco Bell in Northgate, and upon walking out in the parking lot, he was met by three male subjects. One of the subjects yelled to him, hey, Redacted, do you know that a friend of ours is your girl's brains out? At that, Redacted stated that he hit the subject in anger, but then returned ran to his car. As the subjects appeared in good physical spirit specimens, he expected them to follow. However, they just laughed. After that incident, Redacted had an occasion to go to Redacted's home, at which time he told Redacted about the encounter of the Taco Bell. Redacted, upon hearing that, pulled up to a crouch on the sofa and pulled a throw cover up to her chin and was extremely upset. Redacted then talked to Redacted's mother about this, and the mother told her that Redacted evidently was having problems with a Temujin Kenzu, but Redacted was very reluctant to elaborate with her on the situation. Redacted stated that he had never knowingly met this Kenzu and had never seen the subjects that were in the Taco Bell lot before. Redacted stated that he had returned to Mississippi the 1st of November and was notified by his father about Scott's demise. I asked Redacted if he may have had an occasion to attend a Halloween party that was put on in Croswell, and Redacted stated that he wasn't there and wasn't into those kinds of parties much. Redacted added that he is striking for an engineer's job on the boat. At one time, it attended a military academy and was considered a candidate for West Point. This interview was conducted by detectives Hudson and Sergeant Bounds, end quote.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So definitely a pattern of him threatening and perhaps even trying to humiliate other men who are connected to a woman.

[Anya Cain]

So I do want to point out here that Crystal's sister initially came forward with this story that, oh, this guy got beat up. Instead, there was a physical confrontation where, you know, they're saying these horrible things about Crystal in this Taco Bell parking lot, and he's. He kind of lashes out at them, not involving Kenzie directly. So this is an instance where you can say, well, this sounds worse at first, and then you go. And it's. It's more complicated than that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But there is a definite pattern there of him threatening and being aggressive towards these other men. But as you point out, it does raise the question of why did this offensive behavior, why did it escalate so much when it came to Scott Macklem? And I think an answer to that is included or at least hinted at in the very end of what you just read, which is this Halloween party. Because there was this Halloween party less than a week before the murder of Scott Macklem, where Mr. Kinzu was in attendance. And the subject was brought up at this Halloween party that not only was Crystal engaged to Scott Macklemore, Crystal was pregnant with Scott Macklem's baby. And in his own testimony at the commutation hearing, Mr. Kinzu went so far as to say that at the time of the murder, he believed that there was a chance that the baby that Crystal was pregnant with was his baby. And it's not absolutely no way it could be Mr. Kinzu's baby. But I tend to believe that that is why it escalated. Because Mr. Kinzu, as we will hear in future episodes, has a very, very, very high opinion, not only of himself, but of his progeny. And so I, Well, I mean, he.

[Anya Cain]

Doesn'T treat them very well, but I mean, he, he like a classic, you know, the classic narcissist parent, right? Is, is my children are extensions of me, you know, like, they belong to me. They're my possessions. So it's, it's not even about treating them well or regarding them well. It's more of just this, you know, kind of like I, I, I consider them my property, too. You're not going to have my woman and my baby.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I think that's what caused it to escalate. What do you think?

[Anya Cain]

I completely agree. I also think there's some really weird stuff that we'll probably uncover eventually. I'm not even going to get into it now, but there's some weird stuff with him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what I was thinking about.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, there's some weird stuff with kids with him that I, I think that's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What I was alluding to clumsily. And now that's. Episodes to come.

[Anya Cain]

It's, it's gonna get pretty crazy. But I, I think in this situation, let's just say that there's a possessiveness there that, you know, maybe even more so than just your standard kind of narcissistic parent situation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So after the murder, Kinzu presented alibi witnesses, and as I alluded to earlier, we reported in our earlier episodes how he obtained those alibi witnesses, which was by calling them and trying to manipulate them and confuse them by saying, oh, didn't you see me on this day? Or, you know, and just trying to. Basically what he did was witness tampering. And this was described so completely in the transcripts that, as I mentioned before, it was cited by the jurors as a reason not only not to believe those particular alibi witnesses, but as a reason to convict Mr. Kinzu. And these attempts by him to manipulate these witnesses, they began very, very early on. The police got a call that shortly after the arrest they got a call from somebody who said Kinzu called him approximately one or two days after he was in jail, trying to get him as an alib witness and telling him he was at his house on the date of the offense, which would have been on the 5th. In talking to redacted, he stated that that was not so and the suspect would have been there on approximately 11286 or 113 86. End quote. So just days after his arrest, he's starting to call people. We mentioned earlier about the occasion where he threatened or tried to intimidate a woman into giving him an alibi. Another detective was present at the time of the arrest. Well, let me just read this quote. It should be noted that while the suspect was under arrest and after being processed to the Port Huron Police Department, the suspect was allowed to make several telephone calls from the undesigned detective from the undersigned detective's office. The undersigned detective was present when the suspect did use his credit card to make these calls. The first call had apparently been placed to a karate studio somewhere in the Escanaba area. The undesigned detective was present while this telephone call was being made. And it was the undersigned detective's opinion that Mr. Kenzo was apparently trying to convince someone at the other end of the telephone call that he was in Escanaba on 11586 at approximately 12pm Oops.

[Anya Cain]

Well, that's not suspicious, right? That's just what normal people also in the, in between, like, that's what like, people. We've gotten emails from people that they're just like, wait, hand, wave away anything like. And for me, this is. It's not that he. It's not like, okay, I'm pretty sure I was hanging out with Kevin that day. Let me call him. That's bad because I'm tainting Kevin as a witness. And then it could be, you know, it could be like, looked at later as suspicious. But this is not that. This is if I'm calling everybody I know or anyone I had a, you know, visit with in remotely the same time frame as this situation. And Casting my net wide and I'm calling in favors. I'm, I'm calling people who I saw. I'm calling, you know, people and threatening them that I'm going to kill them and their families if they don't give me, like that's not normal. Let's not pretend like that's normal. And think about for the people who were kind of still like, oh, well, I don't know, I might have done that. No, you wouldn't have.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You wouldn't have.

[Anya Cain]

You wouldn't have been threatening people and calling everybody. You know, if you think you were somewhere, you'd probably maybe be most interested in that. And then the best situation is you, you give that information to your defense attorney or to police and then they handle it like you don't, you don't need to do anything. But like you certainly wouldn't be doing that much.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then there's a couple other things I'm just going to give you. This is an odd detail, may not mean anything at all. I'm going to read this quote. At this time and date the subject appeared at this office. The suspect is just a random citizen quote. At this time and date the below named suspect appeared.

[Anya Cain]

It's a subject. It's a subject.

[Kevin Greenlee]

At this time and date, the below named subject appeared at his office and turned over the described evidence stating that he had found this at approximately 6:45pm or on 11586 in the parking lot just east from the crime scene and towards the Fine Arts Building. End quote. And what he found was an empty shotgun shell carton with the label Federal High Power 20 gauge. So this was an empty box of ammunition that was found not in the parking lot where the murder occurred, but another parking lot it sounds like. So it's unclear if this had any connection whatsoever to the murder. It was hunting season. There was, I believe a fingerprint on the box, but it was not Mr. Kinsey's. And it's. We don't know whose it is.

[Anya Cain]

So it's unidentified.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's an interesting detail.

[Anya Cain]

I think people make too much of this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I do too. And then the other thing is Mr. Kinsey always says, oh, the police never talked to me. In these files there is a transcript of a 20 minute conversation they had with him right after he was arrested. And then there was also some pretty detailed notes on another conversation they had when he initiated in a, an interview with them a few months later.

[Anya Cain]

Are you telling me that Temujin Kenzu is lying about something?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. He suggested that there's no police interviews. And why.

[Anya Cain]

Why would he lie? What is he. Oh, they didn't even look into it that hard because they didn't talk to me. I would have said everything straight.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And basically he's. He gives the story he's. He's told since. So it's including. He's already, quote, he. He claims that, quote, he stated this stuff about Crystal saying he was part of some yakuza organization was a figment of her imagination. And she's seen this in a video movie about ninja with the actor Robert Mitchum, end quote. Kenzoo stated that Crystal had a wacky imagination, end quote. But again, this is something that he said for years. This is something that his supporters repeat, but this is something that's not borne out by the facts because he told this exact same story to a variety of other men and women. So I don't find these interviews particularly interesting. But as I say, we'll probably end up putting all this stuff in our group at some point.

[Anya Cain]

I will say one thing that, you know, I'm. We don't need to read it because it's kind of confusingly written, but there were sort of contemporaneous notes on the phone call that Crystal and Temujin did together. And what struck me with that was he just kept on basically saying. He basically used like the 1980s version of therapy speak on her, where he was going between trying to get from her information on how the investigation was going while also being like, oh, you're so crazy. Oh, you know, you're nuts. Like, here's how mentally ill you are. Like, just trying to. Basically classic gaslighting. It was, it was very interesting. I don't know, it just kind of tells you something about him, I think. But that was, you know, I. I guess I'm just like, again, if he was a guy who's just a normal person where there was no indication he was interested in ninjas and stuff, I could understand some of this hue and cry, but there is. And people just sound completely uninformed when they go on about this because it's like a lot of people were saying the same exact thing. I guess they're all lying, right? All the women in his life lie about him because they're awful, right? I mean. Or he's a guy who fundamentally hates women. He's resentful against women, he's misogynist against women. And I guess I'm just like. With all this lying, with all the lying he's done over the years, it's like, I Think he just thinks other people are stupid and they're not going to look into it. I mean, I really think he has a fundamental contempt for other people and he's certainly willing to use people to his advantage. But, you know, I think he. I don't think he. I think he just sees other people as marks.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. As we say, people who have only been given half of the story, who have come to. To the wrong conclusions, frankly, don't feel bad about it. It's. Now you have the whole story. And I think that's about all I wanted to cover from these files we got from the police. I think it's likely we'll be doing a couple of other episodes relatively soon that I think will be of interest in this case.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But meanwhile, I think you had some things you wanted to remark about before.

[Anya Cain]

I do. I just want to ask you what was for you what was like the most significant moment in reading these files? Like what, what, what stood out for you? I have. I have something that stood out for me. So I'm just curious if you had something.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's been so much, frankly, disingenuous arguments from people saying, oh, we don't even know if Scott knew he was being allegedly threatened by Temujin Kinzu. We don't even know. Maybe it was somebody else entirely different. Maybe it was some mysterious other ex boyfriend of Kristal's. So the detail that there were cars behaving suspiciously outside the Maglem home and that he went and he spotted those cars outside where Mr. Kinzu was living, I thought that was telling. And I think it really lays bare the weakness of that particular line of thought.

[Anya Cain]

That is absolutely the moment for me, too.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And again, shame on people who want to drag Mr. Macklem's name through the mud. Just shame on them. It's time to let that go.

[Anya Cain]

I agree. It's. It's like, you know, like, it's like. I don't know, it's like, it's great that you feel like the need to, like, you know, impress a murderer, get him free or whatever. But, like, I. I guess I'm just like you. You can. You can talk about strengths or weaknesses with the case without. Without doing that. It's been years, you know, I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So what moment stood out for you?

[Anya Cain]

That. That one. That one. I mean, the fact that this murder victim was basically, you know, gathering evidence in his future murder is really chilling and disturbing. And the fact that this guy was going through some of this fear and anxiety and problems before his death when he should have been excited about getting married and having a baby. It just makes me really sad. And I think, Kevin, I think Kenzie should rot for what he did to all of these people. I really think he should rot for what he did to Scott. And I think hearing people kind of repeat these, like, weird, weak arguments is just. I don't know, it's. It's disillusioning because it's the same exact stuff we saw in Delphi. I'm sorry, I'm gonna just say it. It's the same. There's no daylight, okay? There's very little daylight. And I'm not talking about people who are like, it's not enough evidence for me. That's not. That's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who are just like, you know, repeating the same talking points all. You know, it's like, yeah, we see. We see there's a group chat going on. You know, like when you're just going out there and putting out the Kenzu crisis communications, you know, like, talking points that have been, like, hastily fashioned and are often inaccurate. And then if anyone else tells you, no, that's not right, instead of addressing that and thinking, hmm, wow, I had a lot of information wrong, maybe I should, like, I don't know, change my opinion because it was built on a pack of lies. It's like, no, no, no. Like, let's. Let's just move the goalposts, like, constantly. You're just seeing the goalposts disappear over the horizon, and then you walk up to them and you're like, all right, but this is still wrong. Oh, there they go again. It's. It's like, it's. It's exactly what you see in Delphi. It's exactly what you saw with people defending Co Burger. It's this kind of. It's another genre, another flavor of this true crime nonsense where it's like instead of you're. You're basically making an assumption that someone has to be innocent and then just filtering everyone, everything through that filter instead of actually looking at things as they are.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And again, we live in the real world. We don't live in the world of make believe. Let's not talk about evidence that you like to imagine might exist if the police just did something differently. Let's look at the evidence which does exist, which has been uncovered over the years by police and by Mr. Kinzu's investigators. Let's look at that and let's stop the stupid speculations.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. So now I Had a couple of things that I, you know, we've seen even in recent times, a couple of other things come out about this case that I thought were, you know. Well, I'm not going to say anything right now, but we saw some other things come out and I actually took the time to compile a list of suggestions in terms of how this case could be covered more responsibly going forward. And to be clear, Kevin and I, as you can tell from listening to the episodes, we strongly believe in Kenzoo's guilt in the murder of Scott Maglem. But that's our opinion. You don't have to agree. And that's okay. Like, there could be two intellectually honest positions to take in this case, and I think there are. But when I. When I look at some of this stuff, it's. It's not intellectually honest and it's actually actively harmful. So here are. I'm gonna. I have a couple of categories. The first one is things that I think need to be addressed in projects going forward. If someone's doing a deep dive into this case or doing a coverage of this case, I believe strongly that all or most of these topics should at least come into it. And so I'm going to read those. One, you need to address the multiple women who have come forward with stories of rape, coercion, domestic abuse, financial abuse, all sorts of awful things against themselves and others by Temajinkenzu. That needs to be addressed. That needs to come up. We cannot keep whitewashing this as a true crime community. Two, you need to mention the fact that Kenzou called around multiple witnesses, including the witness who then called around his friends in an attempt to solidify Kenzu's alibi, thus tainting the alibi. This needs to be mentioned in conjunction with the fact he was also threatening at least one person to provide him an alibi or he would kill her or rather kill her family. That needs to come into this. We cannot just keep on saying, oh, well, there were all these alibi witnesses without mentioning the tainting because that influenced the jury's decision. And if you're not mentioning that, you're not explaining to your audience what happened. Three, the fact that numerous courts and legal officials and the jury have all found him guilty or upheld his conviction over the years. People often like to cite, like one judge who I believe reversed the conviction before being overruled by the rest of the court. People like to mention dicta. Let's mention the majority opinions. Perhaps that might be good. That might be actually a Little more relevant. Four, we need to mention Kenzu's contention that there is a vast conspiracy against him, including but not limited to his own original defense attorney, David Dean. Yes, you heard that right. Five, we need to include that Kenzie's other accusers came forward immediately to police. These are not women who just were sitting around and then in 2011 were like, oh yeah, maybe I'll get involved. We're seeing their insights and their experiences in this original police report. They're there. It's not new. It wasn't used in trial because I imagine it was overly prejudicial and did not have a direct bearing on what happened to Scott. That's why only crystals came in, because hers had direct bearing on what happened to Scott. But it doesn't mean that they were just sitting around and were like, ah, yes, I think I'll get some of that clout. AKA basically being reached out to random shoddy creators for the rest of my life who want to exploit my pain and exonerate the guy who abused me. What, what a, what a, what a wonderful thing to have happen to you. Right. So six, we need to mention that Kenzo told multiple lies, including acting like he wanted to testify on his own behalf, which was clearly untrue given that he said to the press immediately after the trial that he did not want to testify and that was his idea. Um, what number am I on? I guess seven. We need to mention that Crystal clearly described Kenzou owning a shotgun that has since vanished. We need to mention the ammo in car. We need to mention all of that. Okay. We need to mention his stated interest in guns. We need to mention the fact he was telling other people he had guns and was having his, his romantic partners feel bags of guns and telling them that he had guns. We need to debunk this thing. They hated guns or was just a, you know, using his fists of fury in order to do things. He was absolutely someone who was interested in owning weapons, said he wanted to, said he did. And that was glimpsed by Crystal. So she does not say he owned a shotgun. She describes a shotgun in the testimony. People who read the testimony will understand that. Now I'm going to list some talking points that I think need to die. One, the idea that Scott Mecklem was being threatened by a person who is not Temujin Kenzu. There is no evidence for that. Nobody is saying that. Two friends of Scott Macklem saying he was threatened before he met Temujin Kenzu. The incident they, they cite for this is the friend is clearly getting the wrong date because the guy actually says Temujin Kenzoo's name at the time. So he's not like bringing up some random person we don't know. He's saying, oh, it's Temujin Kenzoo. And it was in December. Couldn't have been in December, so he got the date wrong. It's not hard. Three, we. I need. We need to drop this kind of, oh, Scott Macklem's victimology. He was into drugs. People have been trying to dredge up stuff on him for decades. They failed. If you have something concrete, let's hear it. If not enough. Four, we need to drop the idea that police needed to waste a bunch of time and resources going down blind alleys just because I guess people today don't want it to be Temujin. You know, you're given the case you're given. You have to look at who's coming up and having a lead in a guy who was saying that he wanted to kill this guy and then immediately being like, but let's look at all the drug dealers when no one's saying he's involved in drugs. That's not good police work. Okay? It's not. That's not being thorough. That's like just. I don't. Like, I don't know what that is. That's just stupid. Five, we need to stop saying scores of witnesses placed him far, far away. Only two matter. As far as the timeframe goes. That's the thing that I think gets people hooked on this case are like, 18 people said that he was in, like, the Upper Peninsula. Like, whoa. Like, how could it help that he's in a plane?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Whoa.

[Anya Cain]

Like, that's gets them only two matter. Only two matter. So 18 is just. Just trying to pad it out to make it sound more impressive. 6. We need to drop the hints that scores of judges, prosecutors, politicians, defense attorneys, witnesses, police, and more are conspiring against Temzu. 7. We need to stop putting forth the idea that he's just a cool rock and roll dude who's into karate and having a good time, because that's not true. And that's very clear if you actually look at the case. So stop saying it because it's really offensive and horrible. Stop whitewashing this guy. We're as, as true crime people as journalists. We're not his flack, we're not his PR person. We're not his stressed, aggrieved publicist who's running around on the phone trying to book him gigs okay, we're supposed to be telling the truth. He's not a cool rock and roll roll karate dude from the 80s. He's not fun. He's not nice. He's horrible. You can still think he's innocent, but he's horrible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

He's also not very smart.

[Anya Cain]

And I am so sick of people whitewashing a rapist. I'm so sick of people whitewashing a convicted murderer. I. You don't need to do that. You. You can go based on the evidence and come to a different conclusion about us, but you don't get to throw away all of the discussion of abuse, all the discussion of rape, all this other stuff.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That brings up another thing. I wonder. What. How you would respond to this. I've seen the talking point that it's not fair to call Temujin Kinzu a rapist just because many, many, many, many, many women say that he raped them and has.

[Anya Cain]

I'm literally gonna explode if I hear that again. We're gonna get that in my what I'd like to see section, which is coming up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay.

[Anya Cain]

Let's just say, like. Like I'm trying to keep it together. Um, yeah, let's stop whitewashing. It would be a nightmare to be this guy's publicist or flack. We don't need to. We don't need to take on that job for ourselves. And it's. It's wrong to do this. It's really sick, actually. So I think I'm, like, on, like, eight. I don't know. I can't count. I put these in bullet format instead of, like, numbered formats. That was stupid idea. So anyway, so, yeah, we're talking about how he's not smart. I can't even count. So Therehere we go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

8.

[Anya Cain]

We need to drop the idea that it was unfair to bring in Kenzu's treatment of Crystal into trial. It had a direct bearing on what happened to Scott. It's been also. You don't have to take our word for it. You don't have to take. Well, the murder sheet likes it, so it's good. No, it's been adjudicated in court repeatedly. Repeatedly. Judges in Michigan are cool with it, so I think we all should be cool with it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It.

[Anya Cain]

I. I don't. I don't like. I like. It had a direct bearing on what happened to Scott. The motivation was the possessiveness of Crystal and having a normal boyfriend who then just turns around and shoots your fiance. That doesn't really make any sense. So you need to get in. What happened To Crystal, you need to get into their relationship. You need to get into his treatment. And to be clear, I don't think it would have been fair to bring in other victims of Temujin's behavior into trial trial because that wouldn't have directly connected to Scott and it would have been too prejudicial. So I think police, I think prosecutors, Prosecutor Robert Cleland in this situation used discretion and did the correct thing. And again, it's been held up in court. So when people are acting like this is some horrible aberration, well, appeals people had the chance and they didn't get it through. So I don't know what to tell you. I guess we're all just smarter than the Michigan judges here right now. The. I think nine. We need to drop the insinuation that Crystal is the true killer of Scott. This is so wrong and so offensive. You're, you're going to a woman who lost the father of her child. She lost, you know, her love. She lost her fiance, the guy she wanted to marry. He was brutally killed by a guy that she just happened to have the misfortune of going on a date with, who became obsessed with her and spent months beating her psychologically, tormenting her, threatening her. So like, let's not put her through that too. Anybody who does this at this point, I will kick into the sun. I guess I will just say that, like, I, I, I'm like, I can deal with a lot of things and people coming up with some stupid stuff. But if, think if people are doing that at this point, at this point, when all this information has come up, like you just, that's crossing a line. I think, I think that's horrible. And I think that is not necessary. What do you think?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree.

[Anya Cain]

Here's things I like to see. So you mentioned one of them. In the discussion of Crystal being raped and abused by, by Temu, I see the following. I see things like, well, why didn't she report the rape immediately? I see things like, why didn't she leave him, just dump him? I'm trying to be really careful about what I say right now. Anyone who's done. And to be clear, I'm not an expert in domestic violence. I'm not an expert in rape. I'm a journalist who covers this because I cover true crime. In the reading I've done and just the reporting I've done, it's very clear to me that in instances of rape and sexual abuse and domestic abuse victims, survivors do not always immediately disclose what they've been through that's extremely common. And adding to that, that the fact that Kenzie was threatening Crystal and that he threatened other women, that other people didn't disclose immediately, I think that falls into that classic pattern. So same with domestic abuse. People don't leave immediately. People leave, take a long time to leave, or they never leave and they get killed. So we don't get to unlearn everything we know about rape and domestic abuse and domestic violence just because it's bad for our narrative in a specific case. You know, you don't get to say in most instances, well, yeah, I believe the victim. And yeah, of course she wouldn't disclose immediately because she was scared and because she didn't she wanted to just go away or blah, blah, blah. Oh, but in this situation, I think it's suspicious because, like, you know, that's good for my guy. Then we don't get to do that. That's extremely offensive to anyone who's survived any situation like that. And what you're telling your audience is if any of them have gone through that, you wouldn't have believed them unless they had done it in the perfect way possible.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if you have a long list of women saying, this man assaulted me, this man beat me, this man raped me. That man's a rapist, and you don't need a judicial decision to back that up. Another stupid talking point I've heard is, well, if the state really and truly believed the women, if they really believed he was a rapist, then why didn't they ever charge him with rape? And the reason for that is because the man is serving a life sentence without parole for murder. So why put all of these women through the ordeal of a trial when you're not going to make his punishment one iota worse? And also the fact of the matter is, because of the nature of the crime of rape and domestic violence, and domestic violence, it can be hard to prove because it's a crime that happens often between just two people, and they're telling contradicting stories. And it can be hard to get to the truth in court.

[Anya Cain]

This is 1986 we're talking about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. So he is accused of rape by a variety of women who tell consistent, believable stories. You don't need to charge him with those offenses because he's already serving a life sentence. I always try to be very careful. I don't want to put too much on a person's plate or put my thumb on the scale. And I want to be fair to everybody, But I feel very comfortable Saying this man is a rapist and a vile one at that.

[Anya Cain]

I don't, I don't believe. I, Again, I don't believe in the kind of dictum of like, you have to believe everyone about everything. I don't, I want to see some consistency and I want to see does this hang together? And also I can believe someone and not necessarily feel like it's prosecutable. Right? There's a difference. Like, there's what's going to hold together in court and then there's what I believe and what you can prove and whatnot. In this case, I strongly believe these women. I strongly believe Crystal. I believe everything what they're saying about him. And I am disgusted that people would essentially be using like talking points. That would be shameful for like a 1980s, like old school cop who's like, yeah, why didn't they report it right away? You know, we've all seen true crime stories that have that guy in it, right? Like the old school detective who dismisses the rape allegations because, like, yeah, she, well, did you scream? What were you wearing? You know, that kind of stuff. And we all want to scream when we're listening to those podcasts. It's like, oh my gosh, if you had just done the right thing, you might have actually prevented a bunch of murders. Right? And why we're adopting that kind of like, bizarre thinking that we know is not backed up by like, psychology or anything else, why we're adopting that just for this guy, I do not understand.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's being done in the service of a man who deserves no charity. And it's being done in a way that causes unnecessary harm and pain to a lot of women who don't deserve it.

[Anya Cain]

It's like, what are we gonna ask them next? Did you give them the wrong idea? How short was your skirt? Like, I mean, like, it's disgusting to me and no one. And then people don't do it in these other cases and it's like, what the hell? Like, it is so ass backwards. And if I see it, I will say something. I don't care who's doing it. I, I will say something. This is not acceptable. It's not acceptable for you being, putting that garbage out to your audience. And if I see it, I will say something because I, I, I'm, I feel very passionately about this. Like, it's not okay. And it also makes true crime, it cheapens and coarsens it. Where we're essentially using our understanding of things like rape and domestic violence as a, like, Something we can turn on and off, depending on what. What we want from the outcome of a case. It's. Victims do not always disclose, especially when they're being threatened, especially when there's violence. It's 1986.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if you want to believe he is not a rapist or not a person who perpetrates domestic violence, then you have to believe that all of these women, who many of whom never met each other, had no connection with each other, that they somehow simultaneously came up with the exact same lie. And I don't believe that. I believe these women, and I believe Temujin Kinzu is a monster.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to tell you a story that has to do with Burger Chef for a second. And it gets into. It loops back. There's a situation that happened with a suspect in the Burger Chef murders. Donald Forrester. Horrible rapist. Horrible man. You know, one of those guys where you're like, man, I. You would have been a serial killer if you'd gotten the chance. Or maybe there are some bodies that we don't know about. This guy abducts a woman. He doesn't know her. He abducts her with his cousin. They rape her. She jumps out of the car. I'm convinced that that saved her life. I'm convinced that she saved her life and other lives by escaping that night. I think they were going to kill her. I'm very. I'm actually, like, fairly confident about that. She escapes, she runs. She manages to get to a house. They don't let her in, but they call the police. She's naked. She's got burns on her legs from jumping out of a moving car to escape. These men and police come up. It's in Anderson. Anderson, Indiana. Anderson. Police come and they're suspicious of her. They think, like, well, I don't know. Like, that sounds kind of crazy. They don't believe her. They treat her like she may have done something wrong or like, well, I don't know. What are you. What are you really doing? And this is. Again, she's naked. She's been abducted by people she doesn't know. This is not a dispute. It's not a domestic dispute, but they kind of treat it like it is. And like, oh, we're pretty suspicious of you, actually. And thank God. Goodness. Indiana State Police Detective Tom Davidson. He's since passed away. He gets the case. They call, you know, he gets called in and he is able to crack it open. He believes her immediately. When we talked to him, he was, like, crying, remembering some of this stuff. Because he empathized with, with this person, with this survivor, and because it still affected him years and years later. And the reason I bring that up is because, you know, when you look at these old cases involving rapes, involving things like this, you have people who are more in the mode of the Anderson police were in that situation. And you have people who are like Tom Davidson. And I feel like the investigators in this Port Huron, all the, these guys who were involved, they were more like Tom Davidson. They took this seriously. And, and that is to their credit. So when I see people beating up on this investigation or they did a lousy job, I, I reading this file, I feel like they, they took these claims seriously and they looked at them and that you cannot say that for every police department, especially back then, that they wouldn't just dismiss it as being kind of out there, like, I don't know, maybe there's a misunderstanding between two people sort of thing. So I want to say that I don't, I don't know, I kind of went off on a tangent there. I'm sorry. But I just wanted to say that. Let's talk about other things. I'd like to see more of. I would like to see condemnation from creators of varying opinions of Kenzu and Paula's horrible treatment of both Crystal and her family members and others in this case, including recent doxings and post with her phone number and post with her full name. Okay. It's not just Crystal that gets this abuse anyone. This should be condemned. And when, if you're going to have Paula Kenzu, you know, Kenzoo's biggest cheerleader on your program and just do a giggly, you know, chat fest, gabfest interview with her about what a wonderful advocate she is. If this isn't your first question of why are you doing this, as far as why are you tormenting your husband's rape victim, then that's not a good use of anyone's time and you're not using your platform in a way that I find appropriate or, you know, good. And you're basically just telling anyone who's been through this that, you know, you don't care and that you would probably side with their attacker over them. So that's, that's one thing. If that's not condemned, then I am very suspicious of whatever is going on there. And then lastly, we do not all need to agree on guilt or innocence, but people do not get to throw out everything they know about rape, domestic violence, etc, just because it hurts their preferred narrative. And I think if we, if a work doesn't do most of these things that I've just listed out in these various categories, it's not worth your time. And it's by a person who decided to either act as a flack for a serial rapist who murdered a 20 year old father to be because he's an angry maniac, or it's because they're ignorant and they didn't do any of the necessary work needed to understand this case and they did not look past these superficial traditional media headlines on it. And then in that case, they're not necessarily morally horrible, but they're lazy and they didn't do a good job. So you shouldn't listen anyway. So I, I, that is my, that is my take. I mean, I, I, we need to demand people do better in true crime and this is where we start. Like you can, like people have been telling a story that's not true and it needs to stop. Because at this point, I can understand why it happened. In the past, I can understand it. But now, now's a new day. And now there's more information out there and if you're not at least grappling with some of these really important issues, you're not doing your job. It's a privilege to have a platform. It's a privilege to be able to speak to you guys about crime. But that privilege comes with some serious responsibilities. Okay? And if you're just whitewashing things and trying to fit things into a really easy narrative, that's not okay. Not at the expense of rape victims and domestic abuse victims. And we have a lot more to say on that. We have a lot more information that we're coming, that is coming together, that we will be coming out with that I think will really continue to shake the foundations of this case. So this isn't over. This will be continuing. We will continue to report on it. But it's, it's, it's, the more I learn, the more appalled I am. I guess I'll just say that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'll say that too. One more thing before we close. I mentioned we'd be interested in hearing from people who knew Denise, who married Mr. Kinzie when Mr. Kinzie was incarcerated. I think all the talk about, oh, Scott's victimology, it's born out of silliness. But it does have an underlying good point to it.

[Anya Cain]

I agree.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Which is that for all of these years, all of these decades, we have been talking endlessly about this stupid man, Temujin Kinzu, who is a violent thug. And in and of himself, he's not a particularly interesting or worthwhile man. Certainly doesn't deserve really our attention. The person who really does deserve our attention is the victim in this case, Mr. Scott Macklem. So if anyone within the sound of my voice knew Mr. Macklem, cared about Mr. Macklem, loved Mr. Macklem. Please reach out to [e-mail] we'd love to talk because we'd really love for people to get to know the real Scott Maglev.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm going to say this. We will protect you. You do not have to have your voice on the show. We do not want to put you in a position where Paula Kenzie is going to, like, freak out and like, spam your work with a billion emails. We will protect you. We understand the ramifications of talking and speaking out in this case, that you will be threatened by Paula and you know by as an extension of Temujin Kenzu. And we will protect you. We protect our sources. We take that extremely seriously. So if you're worried about reaching out, just know that we're not going to do anything that jeopardizes you. We're going to talk about it. And even if you just want to give us some information off the record and you don't want to be involved, that's fine. But we are looking for that information because Scott's life mattered. Scott made a big impact on people despite living a very short time and, and certainly being taken away far sooner than he ever should have been. But I think we would like to do more to honor him because it would be nice to report on someone who just genuinely seemed like a good, genuine guy versus this other hot mess of a person who just again, brought misery to pretty much everyone he's ever interacted with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think that's it for now. Right?

[Anya Cain]

Yep.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, thank you all for listening.

[Anya Cain]

We appreciate it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder sheet and who you can find on the web. @kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We're obsessed with our quince pieces. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

What is quince?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quince is a company. It lets you get really high quality clothing for very affordable prices.

[Anya Cain]

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors and you're just going to get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We previously gotten some winter styles but, but we wanted to update. So we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambry stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses cause like I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

[Anya Cain]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in Martini olive oil. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably if I convince her, take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, I got a beret too because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret. And yeah, I, I just really. Quince is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things, make sure the sizing's right for you. And it's just a great deal for Murder sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quint. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quince.commsheet you know, Anya, we are in this true crime space. It's such a difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to, like start attacking you and even threatening you.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

SimpliSafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, we're no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically hit, veiled threats where people say they're going to come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with Simplisave, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new active guard, outdoor protection that's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened. They're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 247 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras. And also, one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment, and it can't be on the walls permanently, as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters. They're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe.