The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu: The Temujin Tapes: Part One: "What Do You Think You’re Bullet Proof Now?”

Summary

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Murder Sheet: The Murder of Scott Macklem: The Guilt of Temujin Kensu

The Temujin Tapes Part One: "What Do You Think You’re Bullet Proof Now?”

Podcast: Murder Sheet
Hosts: Áine Cain (C) & Kevin Greenlee (B)
Date: February 17, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode inaugurates a multipart series featuring the personal audio archive—dozens of hours of phone calls—between convicted murderer Temujin Kensu and his late wife, Denise Derringer. The recordings, made by Denise, reveal Kensu's private persona, contrasting sharply with his public image as a wrongly-convicted gentle soul. The hosts focus on Kensu's patterns of emotional and psychological abuse, his need for control, and the profound toll on Denise's life. This installment emphasizes the intimate relationship, setting the stage for future episodes with even more damning revelations.

Content Warning: Discussion of emotional abuse, sexual language, profanity, rape, violence, and murder.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context & Curation of the Recordings

• The tapes were made by Denise, also known as Amiko Kensu, during her marriage to Temujin Kensu, who is in prison for the 1986 murder of Scott Macklem.
• The hosts reviewed dozens of hours of recordings, emphasizing they did not cherry-pick only the “worst moments.” No evidence of affectionate or kind behavior was found in any reviewed material.
• Denise’s motive for recording seems to be self-protection and documentation of abuse, possibly to validate her experiences or have a record in case Kensu accused her of lying.

  [20:00] Denise: “If you'd like, you know, maybe I should just start taping everything you say so I can like play it back to you.”

2. Kensu’s Relationship with Denise

• The tapes are saturated with Kensu’s demeaning, controlling, and abusive language toward Denise.

• Kensu continually belittles, threatens, and seeks to dominate her behavior, speech, diet, and personal affairs.

• Denise, despite extensive advocacy for him, is consistently the target of Kensu’s vitriol.

• The abuse is consistent, not the result of isolated conflicts.

  Examples of Emotional Abuse:

  • [24:34] Kensu (D): “Is that how you do what I say?...What does shut up mean?...Shut up doesn't mean be a smart ass or add more stupid, insidious comments. It just means shut up, doesn't it?”
  • [29:23] Kensu (D): “...What you need to do is grow up and take some freaking value or have your mouth sewn shut and you probably be a wonderful person and a great person to be around.”
  • [31:39] Kensu (D): “I will have a Catholian wife. I will have a respectful wife. I will have what my grandfather had, a woman’s girlsman shut up...If I had my way to me, I'd cut your tongue out, teach you sign language and bury you deaf and dumbs.”
  • [33:39] Kensu (D): “In this relationship there are rules. If you break those rules, you get punished for breaking those rules. And it's nobody's fault but yours.”
  • [40:29] Kensu (D): “If you were dying of cancer, it'd be somebody else's fault...How does time and money make you lie and make you put things in your body you're not supposed to put there...Those are all personal decisions you made...”
  • [43:00] Kensu (D): “You don't have any rights in this relationship. None. Zero. Rights aren't gifts...You earn them with your conduct, not with your weakness and your pettiness and your bitchiness and your whining...”
  • [54:14] Kensu (D): “Go take your big fat, bloated ass meat cheese doodles and blame me for that too, okay?”

  Hosts’ Reactions:

  • Áine (C) repeatedly notes the consistency and cruelty of abuse, the lack of partnership, and the marked absence of compassion or warmth from Kensu throughout the tapes.

3. Connections Between Private Conduct and the Macklem Case

• Kensu’s pattern of abuse and control toward women, as revealed in the recordings, is consistent with reports from several of his previous partners, including the victim, Crystal.
• Áine (C) observes that understanding Kensu’s controlling and violent tendencies, even over trivial matters, helps explain the alleged escalation to lethal violence when confronted with rejection or perceived humiliation.

  [40:02] “...I think his personality is such that when someone defies him and he perceives them as getting one over on him, he wants revenge. And I think, frankly, that comes from a controlling personality.”

4. Kensu’s Control & Manipulation

• The hosts dissect Kensu’s fixation on controlling Denise’s health routines and blame-shifting—accusing her of causing her own ailments, including cancer.
• He complains incessantly about her supposed failures to prioritize him above her own well-being, family, or obligations.

  [41:37] Kensu (D): “Did you copy the case materials?...What have you been doing?...Supposed to get this done for me. Today you were taking Jim to lunch and going to the doctor's, which you didn't mention yesterday.”

• Blames Denise for everything, even her own cancer and death, and reportedly influenced her to delay chemotherapy, as attested by Denise's son after her passing.

5. Sexual Interests & Relevance to Character

• One phone call is devoted to Denise helping Kensu order pornographic magazines, notably with content oriented around teenagers and high school girls, which the hosts connect to evidence patterns of predatory interest.

  [09:06] Áine (C): “I think it's really interesting that some of the pornography that Temajin can do is especially interested in obtaining involved teenagers or at least people purported to be teenagers.”

• This segment is highlighted to establish context for numerous allegations of sexual abuse and control involving Kensu and teenage girls/women.

6. Public Versus Private Persona

• The episode juxtaposes Kensu’s own, and his supporters', public claims (he is gentle, kind, incapable of meanness) with overwhelming evidence in the recordings of rage, cruelty, and manipulation.

  [27:02] Kevin (B): “Obviously that's not true. And if the people who are saying those sorts of things about him, if they are either wrong or lying about that, what else are they wrong or lying about?”

7. Denise’s Deterioration & Dependency

• Throughout the episode, Denise is heard begging for kindness and love, expressing her emotional exhaustion, and ultimately uttering heartbreakingly vulnerable questions.

  [59:11] Denise (E): “Why you hate me?” [59:12] Kensu (D): “Oh, you. Because you make me. Okay, don't ask me a stupid question. There's your answer.”

• The hosts discuss how Denise, isolated and emotionally battered, stayed in the relationship likely due to a complex interplay of hope, fear, and psychological dependency.

8. Consequences and Legacy

• In a bitter coda, after Denise’s death in 2012, Kensu attempted to obtain assets from her estate and even suggested her family sue her doctors for wrongful death, despite his own role in convincing her to delay lifesaving treatments.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

On Control and Abuse:

• [24:39] Kensu (D): “Shut up. Silence. Silence.”
• [29:42] Kensu (D): “If I had my way to me, I'd cut your tongue out, teach you sign language and bury you deaf and dumbs.”
• [30:31] Kensu (D): “Why did you hang up? You don't fucking hang up on me. You lost your fricking mind? What, do you think you're bulletproof now or something?” -- Episode title quote; interpreted as thinly-veiled threat.
• [47:44] Kensu (D): “Now, your argument is, if I beat you for the things you do wrong, then you'll stop doing...So you must then call me a bully. ...That's the feminist philosophy.”
• [43:00] Kensu (D): “You don't have any rights in this relationship. None. Zero. Rights aren't gifts...You earn them with your conduct.”

On Denise’s Situation:

• [59:11] Denise (E): “Why you hate me?”
• [74:50] Denise (E): “You don't love me. You never did.”

On the Impact:

• [60:02] Áine (C): “She ruined her life over this guy.”
• [77:41] Áine (C): “It’s better to be alone and be confident in yourself and be secure in yourself than to be with someone who is trying to destroy you...That is what I heard on these tapes. Trying to destroy this woman, to break her down and mold her to be to his specifications...”

On Denise’s Death and Kensu’s Exploitation:

• [79:04] Kevin (B): “…After she passed away, Mr. Kinzu tried to pursue legal actions against her heirs in an effort to get whatever more he could from them.”

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Important Timestamps & Segments

• Introducing the Tapes: [03:18–05:54]
• Pornographic Magazine Order: [06:33–09:00]
• Explanation of Kensu’s History & Case: [09:47–12:10]
• Abusive Language – Multiple Examples: [24:34–32:38], [33:39–36:44]
• Controlling Denise’s Health & Diet: [36:44–41:12]
• Blaming Denise for Illness: [40:29–41:12]
• Expressing Fear and Hopelessness: [66:00–69:40]
• Denise Begging for Love: [59:11–59:37]
• Discussion on Why Denise Stayed: [74:37–78:56]
• Posthumous Exploitation & Denouement: [79:04–82:01]

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Episode Tone and Style

• Direct, Empathetic, and Unflinching: Hosts provide thoughtful context and analysis, often expressing sorrow, anger, and disbelief at Kensu’s persistent cruelty.
• Journalistic Rigor: Repeatedly affirming they did not cherry-pick or sensationalize—“This is what the tapes reveal, and nothing gentler exists.”
• Advocacy: The hosts urge listeners in similar situations to recognize abuse and seek safety.

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Listener Takeaways

• The episode offers an unvarnished look into the mindset of a convicted murderer and the dynamics of long-term, coercive abuse.
• “Team Kensu”’s campaign of innocence is powerfully countered by private evidence of his pervasive malevolence.
• Patterns of abuse, need for domination, and predatory sexual interests are consistent with the criminal conviction and subsequent allegations.
• Emotional and psychological abuse can be as devastating as physical violence—and may even be lethal by influencing health decisions.
• The episode underscores the difficulty of escaping abuse and the need for public understanding and support.

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Coming Next

• The “Temujin Tapes” series continues. The next episode promises audio that suggests direct incriminating statements related to the Macklem murder and explores Kensu’s “Catholian” religion and racist views.

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If you or someone you know is affected by domestic abuse, resources are available. The hosts encourage all listeners to prioritize their safety and self-worth.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I'm Kevin and today we will be offering a look at some recordings which will shine a light on the real nature of Temujin Kinzu.

[C]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of emotional abuse as well as sexual language, profanity and discussions of rape, violence and murder.

[B]

So we are in possession of a trove of dozens of hours of phone recordings with convicted murderer Temujin Kenzu. These recordings were made by his late wife, Denise Derringer. The recordings we are going to feature in this episode shine a light on the real Temujin Kenzu, the person he truly is when he's not trying to make an impression. In media interviews. They show him as an emotionally abusive and threatening man. In our follow up episode we will share more of these recordings, including what we regard as an incriminating statement about his role in the murder of Scott Macklow.

[C]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

[B]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases.

[C]

We are the Murder Sheet and this.

[B]

Is the Murder of Scott Macklem. The Guilt of Temujin Kinzu the temujin tapes part 1 what do you think? You're bulletproof. Now.

[D]

It.

[B]

As I said at the top of the program, we got access to a trove of recordings made by Temujin Kanzu's wife, Denise Derringer. She was also known as Amico Kinzu. The couple married in 2001. Denise passed away from ovarian cancer in November of 2012. These recordings are phone calls, mostly involving Denise speaking with Kinzu. Some of the calls involve other people speaking with or about Mr. Kinzu. There are also many, many calls in which Denise tirelessly advocates for Kinzu with investigators, prison officials and attorneys.

[C]

When we went about the lengthy task of going through these many hours of recordings in order to determine what was worth potentially reporting on, what was not worth reporting on, we looked at some criteria in order to kind of come to those decisions. And I think some things more of go towards Kenzie's character and how he kind of treats the individuals in his life. There have been many claims made by mostly Kenzou and those close to him in the media over the years about what kind of person he is with, what kind of person he has become. And I think these. Mostly we tried to keep it relevant to that. I think you are going to hear a lot of pretty emotionally abusive conversations from him towards Denise in particular. And I think what is important to remember is we are not editing these to be the worst moments in what we received. We went through the whole thing. There's no loving, thoughtful, sweet side of Temujin Kenzo that we're not showing you. There just isn't. We were actually really struck by that because we assumed that there might be some kind of charming Persona that keeps people coming back in these situations. But in the audio that we received, in the audio that we looked through, we just didn't find that. And we will try to give you the context of these conversations when possible, but I. I just want to assert that when we went through these, there's. There's nothing like on the positive side that you're not hearing, I guess, is that's what I'm trying to say is that, I mean, you. You were the ones who first kind of were the pioneer through this audio. Kevin, what it. Is what I'm saying accurate?

[B]

What you're saying is accurate. And I want to say I mentioned the. How she would tirelessly advocate for him and try to serve his interests. And some of those endless calls that she made on behalf of this man. They deal with matters even as Trivial, is helping Mr. Kenzo get a new amp for his guitar. She also has a conversation with Mr. Kinzu about ordering something for him that is even more personal. We're going to pick up with Mr. Kinsu reading item numbers from a catalog.

[D]

1 27, 1 28, 129, 130. Okay, now here's what I need them to do. You get 13 for 100. So we should be getting a discount for 200. It should be more than 26 for 200. Because the other things they sell, when you buy 200, you get more. So it should be more than 26. I should be like 20.

[E]

This call is from a Michigan correctional facility for 200.

[D]

Okay, tell them to. I wanted to throw in some copies of silwa S I L W A Asia teenager if they have them. Or silver. S I L W A Big tits or silver.

[E]

I believe you're telling me this. Okay.

[D]

Or silver, opt at a B dash, G E, S, P R I, T Z T. Okay. Or so Carolyn, number one. All right. Okay, got that. Now this says. This says 10 each. 6 for 50, 13 for 100. We're spending 200. So as I said, we should be getting more than 26 because everything else you get a deal when you buy 200. So we should be getting like between 28 or 30 of them probably. I would imagine at least 30. All right. Okay, got that. Now I have not given you 28 or 30. So I need him to fill the rest of the order up because I want. My flyer only has so many on it. I need him to fill the flyer up with extras of cum shot or Abby Spritz or blow up or eroticat.

[E]

Or.

[D]

High school or Asia teenager so that the order comes up eventually to however many that I'm getting for this deal because I only have limited number on this flyer. Okay. Tell them don't send me any male homosexual stuff. Many kind. Okay? So tell them. They gotta, they gotta. I'm gonna trust them to fill the order up with whatever extras because I have more coming than they have in the selection list that I have. Okay. Also, when you call, find out if personals like SP123, if that's a regular hardcore magazine or if it's some kind of a swingers magazine. Okay. And find out what 69 is. Is 69 also hardcore publication? Because you can't tell by the COVID Okay, now the address.

[B]

So he's having his wife order porn for him.

[C]

Pornography?

[B]

Yeah. What are your reactions?

[C]

I think it's really interesting that some of the pornography that Temajin can do is especially interested in obtaining involved teenagers or at least people purported to be teenagers. He talks about Asia teens. It's really disturbing. He talks about. I don't know if it's a magazine or it's some kind of type of pornography, but high school. So there's a. There seems to be a preference for teenagers.

[B]

Maybe we should take a minute here. And discuss why that might be relevant. We don't need to go into a great deal of detail, but can you remind the listener about some of the very basics of this case?

[C]

The basics of the case against Temujin Kenzu are that he is an individual. He. I mean, do you want me to go into, like, his history as a whole or just the murder case?

[B]

Just the murder case and a little bit about his character.

[C]

Okay. So the murder case, he ends up taking a young woman in Michigan named Crystal out on a date. He rapes her and then enters into an extremely abusive, emotionally abusive, physically abusive, threatening relationship with her, where he is essentially telling her that he's going to kill her if she leaves him, he's going to kill her family. She ultimately does leave him. She gets back together with her kind of high school sweetheart, longtime friend named Scott Macklem. Scott and Crystal form a relationship. They become engaged, they become pregnant. Crystal is pregnant with God's child. And what the state's theory of the case was that Temujin Kenzoo finds out about this pregnancy. He, in legal hearings, has said that he was aware of the pregnancy and thought it might be his. And so then he was convicted of stalking Scott and traveling to shoot him dead in a parking lot. On November 5, 1986, he was convicted.

[B]

Of the murder of Scott.

[C]

In the murder of Scott. Yeah. Yes. And things like his rape and abuse of Crystal did come into the trial because it had directly. It was directly linked with the murder because it went to motive. Now that's been upheld in higher courts afterwards. So one thing that did not come into trial was that this is not an aberration for Timothy Kenzu. He has a number of different rape accusations from a range of different women, and also accusations of attacking men when they kind of got between him and the woman he was trying to abuse and control. So this is something that is very much within his character. We heard from one of his other ex wives who we called G, who talked about how he targeted her when she was just a teenager, separated her from people in her life, had him have her. Had her travel with him across the country, and subjected her and their infant daughter to some incredibly horrific physical abuse and subjected G as well to sexual abuse.

[B]

So there's a pattern of abuse here, number one. And also, I think some of this material is relevant because Team Kinzu has tried to act as if, oh, Crystal said I was threatening her. Well, she's lying. So that puts Crystal's credibility into question and it makes it worthwhile for us to take an in depth look at did he behave this way with other women? Because if he did, if he was abusive and threatening to other women in his life, it certainly adds more credibility to what Crystal said.

[C]

I think it was interesting. He took issue with some of our reporting on his preference for teenage girls and the fact that he would enter into these abusive relationships with these very young teenage girls. And he took issue with that. And this, I mean, it's been a pattern of his for a long time. This pornography order certainly speaks to his sexual interest in them. And I just think it's worth noting. I will say this. A lot of these issues around Kenzo's character. When we say Team Kenzu, we refer to there's a small group of people kind of directly around him who seek to get him out of prison and advocate on his behalf. And when we're talking about that, they have made it a public issue in the media for decades. They've made his character an issue. So if his character was not at issue, at least in terms of how this case has been reported on, it's. It would be of less interest to us. But because the public has been fed one thing for so long, we think some of this is very clarifying and important to discuss. It may not have anything to do directly with the murder case, but it does have something to do with. With the case in the sense that as you said, for years Crystal has been maligned as a liar. And certainly you can imagine if a man viciously abuses one woman or is accused of doing so, and is accused of being a rapist by one woman, but treats all the other women in his life with the utmost respect and does not have a history seemingly of doing that, that is going to raise questions. It doesn't mean you need to dismiss the accuser out of hand, but you can look at patterns of behavior as far as how you yourself assess a situation. But in this case, we think a lot of what you're about to hear is going to go towards some of those patterns of behavior and it may change some people's minds about how they view Crystal's testimony.

[B]

And before we get too much further, I'd like to say bear with us on the quality of these recordings. We've worked really hard to make them as understandable as we can. Keep in mind these were recorded probably approximately 20 years ago. Not on state of the art equipment. No. And I also want to say the recordings we received also contained a lot of calls, a lot of calls of Denise dealing with creditors who wanted payments for her bills, which is obviously a very stressful situation for her. She was advocating and working so hard on behalf of Mr. Kanzu and spending money on Mr. Kanzu that it really caused her some financial difficulties. Not going to be playing those calls in these episodes. I also want to say as I as I mentioned, Denise passed away back in 2012. We don't know therefore why she chose to make these recordings. Of course, it is worth noting that there was no expectation of privacy on the behalf of Mr. Kinzu because as he is well aware, any call that he is making from a Michigan Department of Corrections facility is recorded. Since he is an inmate, he is well aware of that.

[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[B]

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[C]

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[C]

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[B]

And there was also this that I wanted to share with you. At one point in one of the recordings, Mr. Kinzu says something and then he denies he said it. Here's Denise and oh my God.

[E]

If you'd like, you know, maybe I should just start taping everything you say so I can like play it back to you.

[B]

So that is also isn't a possible reason for these recordings.

[C]

I think this was a woman who on some level was very much aware that she was being emotionally and psychologically abused and was trying to take precautions based on that. Although she never did officially leave him or break with him. This certainly some of the statements where she feels like she's being gaslit and she's felt, it feels like she's being lied to speak to why she may have chose to record him in these instances. But we should note that we have, you know, there's no reason to believe this is a comprehensive set of all their conversations. So we do not know why she chose to record some calls and perhaps not others.

[B]

Right. With that said, I feel these recordings give us a great deal of insight, not only in Mr. Kinsey's relationship with his wife, but also his views on a variety of social and political issues. They also show him apparently trying to influence a witness at one point. And there's also one moment where he makes what seems to us to be an incriminating statement about the murder of Scott Macklin.

[C]

Are we going to get to that in this episode?

[B]

No, that's going to be in our follow up episode, which I believe we're also releasing today.

[C]

I believe so. And today's episode. In this first episode, we're going to mostly, I think, focus on Kenzo's relationship with Denise and what that looked like. What it looks like when he's interacting with a woman in his life.

[B]

Exactly. But before we hear more from Mr. Kinzu and Denise, let's hear from other people about them. First, let's hear from Paula Kinzu. And this is a little bit complicated. Paula, as far as we know, is Mr. Kinzu's current wife. We hedge a bit because multiple persons have told us that Mr. Kinzu has told them that the pair have split up. And I've even seen a comment Mr. Kinzu made on social media which seemed to confirm that.

[C]

But we've seen no legal filings.

[B]

We've seen no legal filings. We've seen no comments on it from Paula Kinzu, at least not publicly. She had kind of an odd essay on the social media platform, neither confirming or denying it. So I don't know what's going on there. But with that said, I want to quote from an Instagram post that Ms. Polikinzu made. She wrote, quote, amiko was Temujin's wife, a woman who fought fiercely for his freedom. I would love to strategize with her, to stand beside her. Two women bound by love for the same man, determined to bring him home.

[C]

And she's not the only one who's sort of commented on that relationship and the dynamic There. In an interview for joy Marie Mann's 2025 self published book, Our Friend Temujin Kenzu himself refers to Denise as his best friend and his number one supporter.

[B]

After Denise died, Mr. Kenzoo filed legal documents to try to get whatever he could from her estate. More on that later. But in one of those documents, Mr. Kinsey's attorney wrote, quote, that the petitioner and his wife shared an intensely close and loving relationship up until nearly the very end of her life. Is that true? One more thing before we get more into this. You might recall an episode from last year where Anya read a long letter that Mr. Kinzu wrote to his daughters that was filled with bile and vitriol. A social media post from an account identified as Temujin Kinzu admitted that Kinzu had written that terrible letter, but tried to excuse it by suggesting he was drunk at the time. He admits he got drunk and someone else wrote typed the letter as he vented his frustration. I would note that this is the only time he has ever been accused of doing anything like this. There are no mean letters and not a single threat in a single letter phone call, or even the prison inmate email system. Tevagen is one of the kindest, most gentle, loving, thoughtful and generous people you could ever know. And that is why so many thousands care about him. Is that true? With that in mind, let's start listening to some of these recordings to see for ourselves what sort of a person Mr. Kinzu is now.

[D]

Is that how you do what I say?

[E]

I already told you that.

[D]

You don't already tell me.

[B]

Shut up. Silence. Silence.

[E]

You'd already gone silent.

[D]

Silence means silence. God damn it. You're just gonna push it, aren't you?

[E]

No, I'm not.

[D]

What does shut up mean? What does it mean?

[E]

It means I don't get to explain. What does it mean? It means shut up.

[D]

Don't play word games with me. What does it mean?

[E]

I mean shut up.

[D]

Does it mean keep talking? Does it mean keep talking?

[E]

No.

[D]

Does it mean talk when I'm talking?

[E]

No.

[D]

What does it mean?

[E]

Just what I said, shut up. And it doesn't matter what shut up means.

[D]

Shut up doesn't mean be a smart ass or add more stupid, insidious comments. It just means shut up, doesn't it?

[E]

Mm.

[D]

Does it mean make more sarcastic comments and push your frickin luck, huh? Nope. This means piss me off more. Doing the same. You know I can't stand. Nope. All right then.

[B]

What do you. What do you think of that, Anya?

[C]

I think that one thing When I was listening to these tapes and interactions like that, I think that's important to remember is that these tapes that we're listening to are interspersed with Denise's calls to prison officials to try to make her husband's life significantly better. This is a woman who dedicated time, money, energy, her life, her relationships to this man and to. This is not an aberration. This is not one fight that got out of control. You're going to hear that, you know, as you listen. This is like a pretty typical, fairly standard, maybe even some ways mild interaction between Denise and Kenzu. And I think, I just want people to remember that. People I think have made excuses over the years talking about, well of course he said bad things about Crystal because she accused him. Well, of course he said bad things about his daughter because she doesn't believe in his innocence. When we talked to Elena, that was something we heard of, like, well, she's not supporting him so he's angry with her. This is a woman. And I think both of those two reasonings are extremely victim blaming and nonsensical and frankly perpetuate abuse and abusers. But if people want to make those arguments, that's their right. Fine. When we look at Denise, she's quite literally doing everything she can to help him and he still treats her like this on a very regular basis. I think that's really notable and I.

[B]

I want to highlight what I, I was just reading. People talking about how sweet and gentle he, love he and loving he is. How him being mean only happened once when he was drunk. Obviously that's not true. And if the people who are saying those sorts of things about him, if they are either wrong or lying about that, what else are they wrong or lying about? And Mr. Kinzu is not a gentle soul and we did not find him being gentle or loving with Denise in these recordings. But again, these recordings were made by her and we do not know what she might not have recorded for posterity.

[C]

That's true.

[B]

And as we say, there are dozens, dozens of hours here and we cannot share dozens of hours of soul deadening conversation.

[C]

We would not do that to you guys.

[B]

Where this terrible man, and I do say he's a terrible man, where this terrible man abuses a woman who loved and adored him. We are just offering a selection today which we believe fairly illustrates what the relationship was like. And as I say in our next episode we'll share recordings which highlight other aspects of Mr. Kinzu's personality. But let's get back to his relationship with Denise. He often Gets upset with her when she speaks. You kind of heard an instance of that there. But her speaking seems to be a real flash point with him. Here's another example.

[E]

That is what they told me, and I believe you said that because you say that when you're mad at me or when you're mad about something.

[D]

You say, shut the fuck up.

[E]

You say those stories.

[D]

Don't you ever fucking talk over me again. Do you understand me? Do you understand me?

[E]

Well, we don't have much to talk about. We don't have much to talk about.

[D]

If you don't answer me. Do you understand?

[B]

Yes. What do you think?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, that's just pretty. Pretty typical of the way he speaks to this woman.

[B]

It's.

[C]

It's. I feel. I feel tremendously sorry for her.

[B]

Here is a more extreme example.

[D]

But I warned you and warned you and warned you and you. That when I called you, I said, I warned you and I warned you, didn't I?

[E]

Why are you.

[D]

Why don't you talking nice? Don't tell what I need to do, okay? What you need to do is grow up and take some freaking value or have your mouth sewn shut and you probably be a wonderful person and a great person to be around.

[B]

This is just. I. I mean, I'm making an obvious point. This. This is just appalling and disgusting.

[C]

He's telling this woman to sew her mouth shut. I mean, it's just. I don't know. It's nasty.

[B]

Here is another example. This one seems to have happened after a conversation on the phone in which Denise seems to have hung up on Mr. Kinzu.

[C]

One thing that often seems to put go before these incidents is he feels like she's not doing enough for him. Even though we're hearing her do a.

[B]

Lot for him, she has a lot for him.

[C]

But, like, he feels like it's not. Nothing's ever enough.

[B]

Yeah. Here's the thing with Mr. Kinsu. Nothing is enough.

[C]

Yes, you can do anything. You could. You could. You could hang the moon for him. And it's, you know, two minutes later, you're getting this treatment.

[B]

Here we go.

[E]

Why are you calling me?

[D]

Why did you hang up? You don't fucking hang up on me. You lost your fricking mind? What, do you think you're bulletproof now or something?

[E]

No.

[D]

Well, you must.

[B]

So obviously, that seems to be a threat. If you don't do what I want, if you don't treat me with the respect I feel I deserve, you have. You must think you're bulletproof because you.

[C]

Must think you could survive bullets, which is very interesting from a man who was convicted of shooting and killing a man with a shotgun.

[B]

In this next clip, Mr. Kinzu is going to talk about what kind of a wife he wants. He says he wants a Catholian wife. And you may be saying, what on earth does that mean? It is a reference to the Catholic people, which, as you may or may not recall, is an utterly preposterous religious cult that Mr. Kinzu founded, which I disparage. And we will have more about that cult and his feelings about it in our next episode. I just want you to have that context as to what a Catholic wife is.

[D]

I will have a Catholic life. I will have a respectful wife. I will have what my grandfather had, a woman's girlsman shut up. He respected because she knew when to shut up. She knew when to do what she was supposed to do. And he treated her like a queen.

[E]

In exchange and guaranteed you me that.

[D]

When she was a bitch, he let her have with both barrels. She shut up. This is you and her. The only difference between you and her, she wouldn't shut up if you don't. Because 99.99% of the problem, this relationship is your mouth, something you cannot control. If I had my way to me, I'd cut your tongue out, teach you sign language and bury you deaf and dumbs.

[B]

What do you think of that, Anya?

[C]

I mean, it's a horrific, graphic, violent threat. And, you know, it definitely exemplifies how he views his relationships with women in general. Women are meant to shut up around him and comply and do whatever he says, and then they won't have any trouble with him.

[B]

Yeah, our problems come when you articulate things that I don't want to hear. There doesn't seem to be any sort of a recognition that this woman is another human being with her own thoughts, desires and needs. They're as important as his own.

[C]

Listening to dozens of hours, I never once heard something where it made me feel like he cared about how she felt or how he was making her feel. It was all about him and what she was doing to him. And that was striking.

[B]

And, of course, Mr. Kinzu's desire to control when she spoke is only one manifestation of his wish to dominate and control. Denise. Here he is talking about how she needs to follow rules, especially those around diet and exercise.

[D]

These are all choices you make. It's like you're incapacitated. You know, if you had no legs and I was yelling, you start using a ski machine that'd be a bad thing. You're not doing it because you don't want to make the effort. That'd be your decision. That your fault, not fine, you eat back to it. That's your fault, not mine. I have little bags of chips at work. That's your fault, not mine. Think I'm so stupid that I don't know? That's your fault, not mine. So what's your point? While the moaning, the crimes and whining, the these are all decisions you made.

[E]

They are not off decisions you want to argue.

[D]

There are rules and if you don't follow rules, they tell you the rules and you know the rules. Then if you script you break those rules, you get punished. And it's nobody's fault the planet but yours. In this relationship there are rules. If you break those rules, you get punished for breaking those rules. And it's nobody's fault but yours. The rules are clear cut and clean. No confusion about them. There's no gray areas. Exercise means exercise. The right food means the right food. I spent that months and months explaining to you how you're supposed to eat five fruits and vegetables a day. That you're 40 times more likely to get one of seven different cancer if you don't. I guess that means I expect you to. 5 Fruits and vegetables a day doesn't mean that I want to hear the crap out, you not have a time or blah blah blah, or you don't like oatmeal, or you don't like grapefruit or jalapenos or whatever it just means to it. There is nothing to discuss. Okay? When you choose not to do that, you're punished. You know all of this. You chose not to do everything you were supposed to do. Okay, so like you said, hey, whatever you want to call it. Why does that bother you? These were your choices.

[E]

They were not my choice.

[D]

You chose not to exercise. You chose eat junk food. You chose not to put on your retin a, you chose not to take your herbs, your vitamins. You chose these things, not me. You did.

[B]

Okay.

[D]

There are no excuses. When I was locked down in sick and couldn't go anywhere unless I was in shackles, I still exercised every single day. The choices you make. I could lay on my ass and watch TV and play tapes and write books were jacked off. But no matter what, I devoted time to exercise every single day. I still do. Even if I gotta sit in my room and do my abdominals for an hour on the concrete floor, doing my foot lockers on my Desk. I still do. There are no excuses. One day out of the month. One day out of the month. You really actually don't have.

[E]

Michigan to exercise.

[D]

And the rest of time is. There's never a time you don't have an excuse for eating crappy food over good food. You're free and you can get good food. You work in Myers, you can get good food. And when you work in a home where the state law requires they have fresh fruits, vegetables and fruit juices, you can get good food. This is all garbage.

[C]

So, yeah, I. I wanna. I have a couple. Do you have anything on that?

[B]

I'm just appalled. I feel so terrible for a woman hearing this kind of talk from a person who's supposed to love her. He's treating her like a child. Here are rules. If you don't do the rules, you're going to be punished.

[C]

He's not even treating her like a child. You don't. I mean, this is. Okay, this is vaguely threatening language about punishments. It's very dark. It's very humorless. I'm gonna. I'm gonna say two observations. One, we previously had Tim Jenkins, whose biological daughter Lena on the program. One thing Lena talked about with her experience of getting to know her father as an adult was that immediately Kenzu began trying to control her diet, trying to get her to take supplements. He had very rigid ideas about that. She was, you know, kind of freaked out by that. Understandably. I think that level of seeking to control another person to this degree, and it's not like a situation where they can wave it away as, oh, well, he's just trying to help people be healthier. I mean, does he sound like he's trying to help somebody, or does he sound like he's freaking out and controlling every aspect of their diet and then becoming angry and abusive when they're not able to comply with his wishes on that regard.

[B]

You sometimes tell me, kevin, I wish you'd eat a little bit healthier. You never say, kevin, there are rules. You're going to.

[C]

I will punish you.

[B]

It's. It's.

[C]

Yeah, it's. It's horrible to listen to. It's coercive. It's abusive. But then the other thing is. So I mentioned how it totally validates what Lena told us because again, it seems like Denise was unfortunately experiencing that same thing. But it also. People have often said to me, or, you know, I've seen people not. Maybe they don't say it to me anymore, but we've gotten emails and we've seen comments like, well, you know, why would Kenzu be so angry at Crystal for defying him that he would go back and kill Scott people? And listen, I don't think that's an unfair question necessarily. Why do that? You know, they had been broken up for, you know, a while. Why would he take that level of anger out on this young man in that situation? I think his. I think his personality is such that when someone defies him and he perceives them as getting one over on him, he wants revenge. And I think, frankly, that comes from a controlling personality. And I think we're seeing that here. I don't. I don't think this is his high stakes. I don't think Denise sticking with his diet plan is super high stakes. But the level of which he is obsessing over it and angry with her and feels like she's defying him is palpable in this conversation. And so I think this is how he reacts to everything.

[B]

I think that's a great point. And keep in mind, we've also learned that he believes people in his bloodline have huge significance over and above what they would in a typical family because they're Catholic and they're princesses and princes. And he believed that Crystal might be pregnant with his child. That child would be raised by another man. And that is, in his mind, certainly a lot more important than the fact that his partner may not be eating as many vegetables and fruits as he thinks she should. And we're seeing the level of anger just towards that.

[C]

Yeah, I think we can't overlook the control, the anger, the need to control every aspect of somebody's life. So when you look at it through that lens, I think the murder ends up making a lot more sense. I mean, it still doesn't make sense to a normal person, but it makes sense in the framework of who Kenzu is.

[B]

Him wanting to control what Denise eats reminds me of this other clip that we wanted to share.

[D]

If you were dying of cancer, it'd be somebody else's fault. You'd never admit it was your fault. You'd never saw the possibility that things you did might have caused it, say somebody else's fault. I've never had time to take care of myself. I never had the money to take care of myself. How does time and money make you lie and make you put things in your body you're not supposed to put there, make you break your word all the freaking time and make you have low self esteem? Those are all personal decisions you made of your own freedom.

[B]

And that, to me, is just jaw dropping. He's saying if you got cancer, you're not going to admit it's your fault. And of course, she did get cancer and died. And so this suggests that he blames her for that.

[C]

Yeah. And that's. I mean, yeah, it. I mean, honestly, in the conversation, a lot of things seem to be, you know, him labeling different kind of absurd things as Denise's fault.

[B]

Yeah. Health issues came up a few times in this recording, often intertwined with Mr. Kinzu's desire to control Denise. Here is an example.

[D]

Did you copy the case materials?

[E]

No, I haven't got that done yet.

[D]

You've been gone all day. What have you been doing?

[E]

I've been at the doctor's, and then I had to go get blood drawn and I stopped by and took Jim out for lunch since I was on that side of town when you were.

[D]

Supposed to get this done for me. Today you were taking Jim to lunch and going to the doctor's, which you didn't mention yesterday.

[B]

So he's upset. He has some trivial errands that he wanted her to do, and instead of making those her absolute number one priority, she has the gall to go to the doctor. That is appalling.

[C]

Yep. I mean it. Yeah. So much of this is just dehumanizing. And like her, you know, her world does revolve around him. You can tell from the tapes and how much she's doing for him. But it's also like, you know, anytime, like she prioritizes herself or even something else in a minor way, he reacts very poorly.

[B]

Yeah. You should be able to go to the doctor, for the love of God, without being criticized by your husband. Whether or not your husband is incarcerated, Mr. Kenzie makes absolutely clear in these recordings with her how he sees her place in the relationship.

[D]

Shut up. Let me tell you something, okay? You don't have any rights in this relationship. None. Zero. Rights aren't gifts. Rights respect the things you earn. You earn them with your conduct, not with your weakness and your pettiness and your bitchiness and your whining. You know, you have non stop reminded me five and a half years of all the things you've done for me. Here's what you've done for me. You have spent money on me and you have bitched about it 24 7. You have copied the things and you have bitched about it. You had mailed things and you had about it. You went hat shopping and you bitched about it.

[E]

Michigan.

[D]

You have bitched about every thing you have ever done. And You've made every thing you've done mean nothing. Cuz you have bitched and whined about it. Oh sh. Whatever. I don't care if you're mad, I don't care if you're offended. You roll, you worthless piece of. You have about everything you've ever done for me and made me feel crappy about it.

[E]

You know what?

[D]

I don't even say anything, okay? Because I'm so sick of you. I have heard and heard and heard and heard and heard about your house and your kids, your cats and your fucking bills 24 7. Every single time I see you, that's all I hear about is bills and deaths, bills and deaths, bills and deaths, bills and debts forever. That's how you get gifts to. I don't want this kind of gift.

[E]

That is not how I get gifts. I give gifts by you saying, go out and get a hat. And when I go out and get a hat, it's the wrong hat. Go out and get another hat. So I go out and get another hat. It's not the right hat. I'm talking about five hats later and it's still not the right hat and you're bitching.

[B]

Any comment?

[C]

I always like it when she gives it back to him. I think Denise had a bit of a spark in her at times where she would stand up for herself like that. But you know, you can kind of. She gets kind of emotionally beaten down over time. It's very sad to hear. I, I mean, to me what's, what's significant about this is that not only is he, you know, you know, speaking to her in a pretty horrible manner, it's what he says that kind of captures my attention. He talks, he complains about her talking to him about her cats, her kids, her, you know, that's her life, her bills, her con, her life and concerns, she brings them to him. And that's a problem for him because it's not about him. That seems to be the frequent complaint. Anything that doesn't directly involve him is really verboten as far as he's concerned in these conversations. And you know, it's it again, if this, it's not a one time like blow up fight. This is just kind of pervasive throughout the hours of recordings that we listen to. So I mean, I don't feel like we're being unfair. I don't feel like we're picking and choosing stuff. This is pretty much how it's. How it is how their relationship comes across. If Denise was going out of her Way to record this stuff. It obviously meant she may have felt like she needed a sanity check or needed to be able to hear this later on and hear how she was being treated.

[B]

Yeah, I wonder if she shared the recordings with people to see what they thought. Because sometimes when you're trapped in an abusive situation and the person who is emotionally abusing and threatening you is, sometimes they're able to convince you that that's normal and they gaslight you. And so maybe she used these as a reality check to share them with others. I don't know.

[C]

I'm gonna say this too. Like, his goal in some of these fights, you know, I mean, like, in a healthy couple, every. You know, I mean, not every, but a lot of couples, you have an argument, you're human. You get into a disagreement. The goal should be typically to maybe express your frustration and then work together to deal with it. You know, in a lot of these fights might be the wrong word, because oftentimes she's not even giving it back to him. It's just him berating her and calling her names and talking about all the ways she's inadequate. It really seems like his goal is not to work out a dispute or even vent or voice his frustration with her. It is to tear her down on a fundamental level, to dehumanize her, to take away her sense of self worth in a very fundamental way. And that's what's alarming about it, because that's never something. If that's happening in a relationship you're in, then run.

[B]

Mr. Kinzu's tendency to demeanor and devalue women, the undertone of violence and threats. These things come up over and over again in these recordings. Here's another example.

[D]

Now, your argument is, if I beat you for the things you do wrong, then you'll stop doing.

[E]

No, that's not at all.

[D]

Oh, you're telling me you're so stupid you would do something that would get you beat? To make what point?

[E]

Not enough.

[D]

So you must then call me a bully. You think you need to push somebody until they get angry. Then if they go too far, you get to call them a bully. That's the feminist philosophy. We can say whatever we want about men and do whatever we want to men, and it's all okay. And if you guys don't like it, you're all a bunch of bullies. So give us, give us, give us. We don't have to give you anything.

[E]

But you do the same thing.

[D]

No, I don't do the same thing. I do exactly what I have always told you I would do from the very beginning. I have never pretended to be anybody that I am not. I am exactly who I am. I have lived by the same law. I have lived by the same rules. You have known what things I liked and did not like and would and would not tolerate and what things I expected and did not expect. I don't do the same thing issue. I don't make hosts of promises to do things that I have no intention of doing to pacify people. You did this. You will bear the brunt of this.

[B]

Yeah, that's striking to me for a couple of reasons. The attitude is, if I do something to you that is violent, if I abuse you, it's not my fault, it's your fault because you drove me to it.

[C]

You pushed me. Look what you made me do. I think that again, people for years have made an issue about Kenzo's character. They've made an issue of Crystal's character. They've said, is it likely that this wonderful man could have possibly treated a woman so poorly as Crystal claims? Could he have beaten her and raped her and threatened her and done all these things? I don't think that should be a question anymore after these recordings. I mean, he's threatening the woman who's his biggest advocate in the world, and he's talking about how, you know, justifying, beating her because, you know, feminists don't have it right. You know, men can. Men can retaliate and that's fine. I. I just really says everything. And also, he doesn't really define what pushing him means. You know, he's not talking like. Like what I think for him, people pushing him is not making him the center of everything at every moment. I think that's for him enough.

[B]

He often returns to the subject of her diet.

[E]

Yeah, well, I mean, every day, you know, I have been busy.

[D]

Busy exercising, meditating in the morning, saying your morning shop, saying before you go to bed, say your meal shawls. Every time you eat, take all your herbs and supplements and all the ones you haven't purchased yet you were supposed to get a long time ago and still haven't gotten. You've been busy doing your breathing exercises, putting your retin a on Hey, I forgot you don't do. Had me make a list of you and tell you to post them on the wall where you'd see them and you couldn't miss them. And you don't put them up, they're buried away in some drawer, you can't find them. And doing all things that are on that list. Oh, wait, I scratch you don't do that to you. That's why I had typed up for you where I said, use your retin A. Number two, I love you. Number three, do your face or sizes. I love you. Number four, take your vitamins. I love you. Like that one that you're going to put up somewhere that you never put up.

[E]

You mean the one you lied on?

[D]

Yeah. That was necessary. It wasn't another stupid, childish comment. Childish?

[E]

You're sitting here insulting me.

[D]

Oh, so that makes it okay, right? You know what? You know, what matters to me is. What matters is that you say it's okay if you do something wrong as long as you think that I'm not right, so.

[E]

No, that's not what I think.

[D]

You can't argue me. Of course, if you burn dinner, I can go anybody I want.

[E]

No, if that's what you say, then I'm the one who says that's not right.

[D]

It's funny, it's tragic, and it's pathetic. You just did it again.

[B]

What do you think of that.

[C]

Again? It's. It's. It's just he seems to regard so many things as an attack on him, and that looking for justification for his own retaliation seems to be a big theme with his dealings with Denise. Again, who is his ally, is his partner, is his wife, is his advocate.

[B]

And if he raises an issue with her, that's fine.

[C]

That's fine.

[B]

But if she raises an issue with him, she's just being childish.

[C]

She's being childish. If she defends herself, you know that's not welcome because she's speaking when he doesn't want her to speak it. She cannot win. She cannot win. These arguments, they're not designed for her to win because they're not conversations between equal partners. They're a man trying to break a woman's spirit and dominating her through insults, through threats, through yelling, through all manner, through belittling. It just.

[B]

It.

[C]

That's. When we talk about how Kenzu is not like a nice, gentle person. I mean, this is what we mean. This is how we treat someone who has done so much for him.

[B]

Yeah. And I thought the whole point of choosing to marry someone is because you like hearing what that person had to say and you enjoyed being with them.

[C]

Yeah, it's really, you know, it's. It's. Again, like if we listen to these tapes and they were him, like, blowing up at her once, you know, and a bunch of normal conversations, otherwise I would have probably been inclined to say, well, Everyone fights. Or you might say the wrong thing, or you might say something kind of mean and, you know, whatever. Also, I, I mean, prison's a high stress environment, right? But that's not what we listened to. What we listened to was, was, was horrifying. And it was basically him trying to deeper, you know, dehumanize this, this woman and her sometimes sticking up for herself, but often not. It's so sad. I mean, I feel terrible what happened to her. I think it's a horrible fate to go through something like this.

[B]

He makes derogatory comments about her weight whenever he can, obviously as a way to belittle her. Here are a few moments from a conversation they had that seems to have occurred after a visit where she walked out on him.

[D]

Sir, you're still a fucking moron. Nothing's changed. Stopping out didn't make a change. Didn't make you grow up. I don't think you're a woman now. You don't, you don't see any spouse. You don't have more stature in my eyes, okay? I just don't care anymore. You wanted it that way.

[E]

I didn't want it that way. You want it that way.

[D]

Whatever. Go take your big fat, bloated ass meat cheese doodles and blame me for that too, okay? Go somebody else and blame me for that too. Whatever the you want to do. Screw everything, burn it all, blame me. It's always been your way. It always will be. Whatever. I just don't give a Anymore, okay? Okay. You know, but you're not gonna dump.

[E]

It on me if you don't give a. Then shut up.

[D]

Shut up. Like I said, don't be a childish ass.

[E]

Why are you continuing to talk?

[D]

Five fucking minutes. It's my fault. Whatever.

[B]

So that's interesting for a couple.

[D]

What?

[B]

What do you think?

[C]

What do you think?

[B]

I, I, I think she makes a good point where she's like, why are you talking? If he really doesn't care, why does he persist in trying to tear her down and belittle her? Yes, basically, he does care. He wants to control her. He wants to belittle her. Any other comments on that one?

[C]

I might save this. I, I've been thinking about, like, one thing I want to get to by the end is, is just why would a woman like Denise stick with him? But I think maybe we can kind of get toward the end and go into why I think that is and why. I think sometimes psychologically it could be harder to move on from these really traumatic, horrible abusive experiences than we would all like to think.

[B]

Yeah, and I'm. There's every possibility out there that there are women out there now listening to us speak who might find themselves in a similar situation.

[C]

I just want to say to our audience, if someone's talking to you like this, and if someone is consistently being incredibly cruel and mean and tearing you down and making you feel really bad about yourself, that's. That. That's abuse. That's emotional, psychological abuse. It's not.

[B]

You deserve better.

[C]

You deserve so much better. You don't deserve this. No, nobody deserves. Nobody deserves it, you know? And again, partners fight. Romantic partners fight. You might say something crummy and regret it later. It's not that every relationship has to be perfect, sunshine, all the time. You and I fight, Kevin, but you fight fair. And you fight with the intention of trying to make your relationship better, hopefully. And if you say something crummy, then you apologize and you mean it and you move on. It's not. It cannot you. This is not healthy. This is not something anyone should be dealing with.

[B]

And of course, Mr. Kinzu attacked more than just Denise's weight. He also called her intelligence into question.

[D]

Did you somehow come to the conclusion that you're smarter than me all of a sudden?

[E]

No.

[D]

You think you should daily try to correct me about stupid, petty, ignorant things? Does that make you feel intelligent?

[E]

No.

[D]

And suddenly think you're a brain type person with 9/10 of her life is interesting.

[B]

He said she wasted 9/10 of her life because this is a man who spent decades in prison. And I want to say Denise had a job. She supported herself. She raised children in the free world while he spent his time locked in a cell because of his choice to take the life of another human being. So, yes, she is smarter than him. Almost everyone on this earth is smarter than Mr. Temujin Kanzu. Anything else you want to say about that?

[C]

So much of his attacks on her seem to be rooted. Like many deeply unhappy and frankly abusive people. I think he is a well of insecurity and is a well of a sense of his own inadequacies. We all have inadequacies, okay? Every single one of us. None of us is perfect. And healthy people deal with that by trying to do self improvement, trying to just accept themselves, trying to know their limits and their strengths. And insecure people often project and they attack others on the basis of things they themselves feel insecure about. I think you can tell what he feels very insecure about when you look at how he deals with people. But I think you can also see a man who's taken that and has learned that he can get things from treating people this way. When he. When he was free, he knew he could get what he wanted by being abusive because women would be too scared to leave him. That would provide him with sex that he could coerce at any time. That would provide him with money that they would collect for him using his fake charity schemes. That would provide him with transportation because he could just take their cars. That would provide him with anything he wants. And so I think from prison, we're seeing him continue to try to use that, because that's the language he knows works, and it's. You know, it can be effective even when he's not able to physically be there to threaten somebody because he can break them down in different ways.

[B]

At one point, Denise asked her abuser the obvious question. Why do you hate me?

[E]

Why you hate me?

[D]

Oh, you. Because you make me. Okay, don't ask me a stupid question. There's your answer.

[E]

Say goodbye didn't make you hate me.

[D]

Yes, you did. And you won't stop. Say goodbye.

[E]

I've changed so much.

[B]

And again, this is what we see. Before. He's blaming her for his treatment of her.

[C]

Honestly, Denise's voice in this. In that moment just gutted me when I first. It still guts me because it's like she's just begging for something from him, and he's responding with this almost kind of like icy indifference. And hearing her saying that she. She said she changed so much. Is that what she said?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

She ruined her life over this guy.

[B]

She.

[C]

She wrecked her life. I want to emphasize that this woman, she ran her life aground to help him and to give everything to him, and this was her reward. Think about that for a minute. Her reward was to be stuck on the phone with him for hours, crying, begging for just a little bit of love, understanding, compassion, and for her, to him to throw that in her face and throw what she was trying to do for him in her face. I think this is one of the most chilling projects we've undertaken to. To learn the depth of the abuse that was going on in this relationship, to learn how negatively she was affected by this. It's horrible. And. And again, I. I want to. I want to. Just in case anyone's confused about this. Denise ruined her life. I mean, is that fair to say?

[B]

Yeah. And we'll get a little bit more into that later.

[C]

Yeah. And. And this is what she got in return. And. And all she wanted to do, I think, was be loved by him. And he would withdraw that love from her to control her.

[B]

There are a few moments on these recordings where Denise does stand up to him, at least a little, and they are satisfying to hear.

[D]

You want to hang up because of that? Okay. You royal. You. Me. I didn't. You. Oh, Bo.

[E]

For six years you have.

[D]

I counted on you.

[E]

For six years you have fucked me and friend me and took everything from me. Yeah, that all be because you do it to people.

[B]

She hung up on him.

[C]

God bless her.

[B]

There are also several instances on these recordings where there are references in their conversations to filing. What does that mean? What they were talking about filling filing for a divorce. And in what we're about to hear, Mr. Kinzu indicates that he wants such a filing if it occurs to be kept secret.

[D]

Oh, so as usual, you're going to tell somebody else our personal problem.

[E]

No, I'm not going to tell them my personal.

[D]

Oh, you're just going to say, well, oh, okay, yeah, I can help still, like you always do. And they're just supposed to not figure anything out because they're all stupid, right?

[E]

Well, what difference does it make whether they think we're together or we're not together if I'm still believing in your.

[D]

Case an enormous amount since I stupidly placed a lot of trust in you and I stupidly told her a lot of positive things about you.

[E]

To say that it didn't work out between us has nothing to do with your case.

[D]

She's saying a rotten, worthless shit who can't keep her word does not mean it did not work out between us. I wasn't free. I didn't break the my word. I didn't cheat. I didn't leave you. I didn't screw around, gamble or do drugs or get drunk or sell the house behind your back. Don't imply in any way, shape or form this is not your handiwork.

[E]

I didn't ask for divorce.

[D]

You did. You know what? That's just like me saying, well, you know what? He had to build these rotten things, honey. But you asked for the divorce.

[B]

See, I thought it was interesting that he. He's concerned. Everything only matters as to how it affects him. And, oh, somebody might think less of me because I'm getting a divorce. And so that's just also kind of interesting in light of what may or may not be happening in his current relationship with Paula.

[C]

I think so, too. But I also think there's an element here where a dysfunctional, emotionally immature, and even potentially abusive person often tries to compartmentalize their lives. And the you want. That means projecting a specific image of what you think somebody wants to see to different people. And it seems like for him, potentially, people being aware of, oh, you know, my relationship with Denise, which is supposed to be this grand, shining, Catholian marriage, is crumbling, is not something that he wants everyone to see. Because maybe if those people go to Denise and say, hey, what happened?

[B]

What? What?

[C]

You guys seem so strong, and she tells them what happened, I think he realizes that support for him might erode. He has to play this parlor game where he's basically giving everybody this different projection. And I think, you know, a person who is functional and honest would just say, oh, yeah, we got divorced. It didn't work out. She's saying here that she still believes in his case. She still presumably believes that he's an innocent man who's been wrongfully convicted, even offering to continue to do work around that, do advocacy. But he can't have that because she. He knows on some level that she knows something about him that I think he realizes if she speaks her truth, that that might change things for me. People might perceive me differently.

[B]

I think in a way, she's speaking her truth now with these recordings.

[C]

I agree.

[B]

Here's another instance where they discussed the topic of filing.

[D]

What were the other two threats about? How would I better deal and how I need to do something. I need to not do something, and I better not do something.

[E]

I didn't say anything like that.

[D]

I didn't really. Fine. Well, when you ordered this tape will hear you saying, you need to not call me again.

[E]

I said, you need to leave me alone.

[D]

That was the other comment you made afterwards. You know, when you tell somebody you need to do something with angry tone, that's an implied threat. That's not what I do, is I would use the law legally.

[E]

I'm sure you will.

[D]

And what you said you would do.

[E]

I'm sure you will because that's how much you love me and you care about me you never cared about. And you need to just stay away from me.

[D]

Telling me to file.

[E]

Leave me alone, Temen. Leave me alone. I don't want to be with you anymore.

[D]

Is that how you feel? Yes. You're sure? You're sure?

[E]

I'm tired of being hurt.

[D]

No, no, that's not what I asked. Sure.

[E]

I don't do anything but make you unhappy.

[D]

What I asked.

[E]

I want to be with you, but it'll never work out. Never in a million years to believe.

[D]

I didn't say anything.

[E]

What.

[D]

What I want to Believe that.

[E]

You say no.

[D]

What?

[E]

You say, I said I want to be with you. But it.

[D]

You didn't. You just said you absolutely didn't.

[E]

I don't. Because it's not going to work.

[D]

You do or you don't. You do or you don't. That's a simple business decision. Make your mind up one. Well.

[C]

What?

[E]

Are you listening?

[D]

No. Absolutely not.

[E]

Well, then why should I cry this garbage?

[D]

Well, you told me to file. You said it.

[E]

Yeah, you did.

[D]

The gauntlet down.

[E]

You need to file.

[D]

Okay, well, fine. Then I'm going to. And I'm gonna seek 50%.

[E]

Yeah, fine.

[D]

Okay, fine.

[E]

And then you need to just.

[D]

I don't know. I guess never bite me again. Never bring it up again. Right. Cool.

[E]

That's what you want?

[D]

No, I'm not the one who said it. No, I didn't say a word about it.

[B]

Nice try.

[D]

See, you can't blame me for your decisions.

[E]

I love you with all my heart, but this is. Would you shut up and just listen to me for one second?

[D]

When you scream, absolutely not.

[B]

No.

[E]

I love you with all my heart. And this is just not gonna work.

[D]

I can tell. I'm feeling it right now.

[B]

That's very difficult to listen to. It's.

[C]

It's heartbreaking. One thing that I always noticed, and I think I mentioned this to you before, as she becomes more emotional, you can hear the devastation in her voice. She's crying. At one point, she raises her voice because she's trying to tell him, I love you with all my heart. But this isn't working. She's saying, I don't think I make you happy. She's saying, you know, it's not working out. It's falling apart. He becomes more and more calm. He almost becomes a little bit flippant. Like this kind of tone of like, well, if you want to do that, that's fine.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it's like he withdraws from the emotional reality of the situation, and it becomes almost like a taunting tone of. Kind of like, I don't really care about this. And he's, like, playing with her. And he starts trying to lock her into statements where it will be her fault because she asked for divorce, even though he previously seemingly asked for it. But, no, it's gonna be her fault. It becomes more of him trying to choreography, choreograph the situation and the conversation in a way that he feels then he can hang the blame completely on her versus having some kind of actual emotional connection and conversation, even when it's difficult.

[B]

I was also Struck by. At the beginning where he's saying, oh, you said you didn't want me to call anymore. That's a threat.

[C]

Yeah. What he views as a threat, what he views as provocation, what he views as something that he needs to respond to in kind or with force or with threats or with negative statements or with abuse is not something that you and I and what. What normal people think, okay, somebody singing, you know, don't call me anymore is not a threat. Like, that's just. That's a request. He doesn't understand the difference between a request and a threat to his being because his ego is so incredibly fragile that he cannot handle the slightest iota of rejection, and he responds violently or abusively to it. He cannot take someone telling him, I don't want you here anymore. I don't want to be with you. I don't want you. Get. Go away, please. He can't deal with it, so he needs to construct a reality in which that it feels like a threat to his ego. It feels like an existential threat. I think. I think that's why he killed Scott. I think he experienced an ego death from Crystal's rejection. To add insult to injury, they're pregnant. He thinks it's his. How dare they. And I think he stewed on it and stewed on it and acted, and that's it. It's not that complicated when, you know, the personality involved. It's really not that hard to believe, and it's not baffling. And I feel like we know him now. We know him better. We heard him talk to this woman. You're supposed to his number one fan, his number one supporter is number one Girl Friday. And this is how he treated her again and again. He tormented this woman for no reason. This is how he treats people. It just is. And when she's saying, don't call me anymore, when she's saying, this isn't working out, all that's threatening to him, all that's a threat to him, and therefore she deserves everything that he can dish out to her. He's threatening her legally. I don't know if we caught that. He's saying that he's going to take half of her assets. He's saying that he's gonna. He started to say he was gonna basically bleed or dry in court at one point, and then she kind of. She started going in. But he. He makes similar statements to other people that we'll get into at another time.

[B]

Yeah, I think we have one more clip we wanted to play today. And this is another one where the topic of filing comes up.

[E]

Temujin, I don't want to speak to you ever again.

[D]

Really? No kidding. You're gonna have to, one way or another.

[E]

I'm serious.

[D]

Well, you know, I don't care what you want because you don't care what anybody else wants. So nobody should care what you want.

[E]

I can't take this anymore.

[D]

You need to go anymore.

[E]

You need to get away from me.

[B]

Really?

[D]

Do I? Or what? Oh, you're gonna do what? You're gonna lie? What? Say I'm guilty? Tell people I'm a mean guy? We can play that taxation game. I don't care about that. Fine. Play the accusation game.

[E]

I am not playing any accusation game. I don't plan on telling anybody anything.

[D]

You just threaten me again.

[E]

I. It's not that. I just said I don't plan on telling anybody anything.

[D]

No, no, no, no, no. Wrong. It's not what you said. No, that's not what you said.

[E]

Yes, that is what I said. Tell him to play the tape back for you. No third party calls are allowed.

[D]

I need an. I better. They can play the tape back. These are public records.

[E]

Well, have them play it back for you. Because you weren't listening.

[D]

Well, no, you weren't realizing what you were saying. Because this is what you do. You mouth off the graph like an idiot and the whole world can hear me say that too. You can order copies of them all for all I care. I could care less. I'm letting everyone know right now that I'm sick of your lies. I'm sick of your garbage. You're not the person they think you are. You're a snake. You stabbed me in the back a thousand times and I'm.

[E]

I stabbed you in the back a thousand times. You have one minute left.

[D]

What do you call a thousand lies? A thousand broken promises. At least five threats in this phone call.

[E]

I haven't threatened you.

[D]

You want to see what animosity is? I'll show you animosity.

[E]

You're the one who's going to challenge me for everything you know. I said go ahead and file because I don't think we can do this. We?

[D]

We.

[E]

It takes two. It takes two to make it. It takes two to break it.

[D]

No, it takes one to break it. You're the one breaking it.

[E]

I didn't call you up and start yelling at you. Yes, you did.

[D]

Play it.

[E]

Tell them to play it for you. Yes, you did.

[D]

They'll play it for you. You buy them all. Okay? You can use Them in court. Your defense. You told me to file you. Remember? You launched the first.

[E]

You don't love me. You never did.

[D]

I know that sounds so dramatic right now. The world's listening. But it's a lie.

[B]

You know, it's.

[E]

It is not. It isn't.

[D]

And you threaten me at least five times.

[E]

I didn't threaten you. You threatened me.

[B]

Again. Very difficult to listen to. He talks about these calls being recorded, and he understands in his mind, they're public records.

[C]

Smallest man alive. I just want to say. Go ahead. If you wanted to say something else. I just wanted to say why I think she stayed with him.

[B]

I'll say one thing, and I'll head over to you. I just want to point out she did end up filing for divorce, but it was not pursued, and the two of them were still married when she died with ovarian cancer in 2012. And before I tell the end of the story, I'm turning it over to you to make whatever comments you wish.

[C]

I feel like a lot of people may be confused about why she did stay with him. And I think it's important to understand the dynamics of abusive relationships when we're talking about why that may be. Because it. If. If it was extremely easy to leave abusive relationships, I don't think, you know, it wouldn't be such a problem. People wouldn't be getting murdered by domestically abusive partners to the same rate that they are. It takes a long time to leave. It takes a lot of support to leave. And. And a lot of people just don't. They don't have the tools to leave. And that's not because they don't have people who love them, who would help them. It's just because maybe internally they can't get there at that time. And. And more, I think more public education, more public awareness needs to be done to help those people who are having trouble. But when we look at Kenzu, I think there's something a little bit also insidious at play. For years, he's been surrounded by his team, team Kenzu. People like Bill Proctor, a former journalist who became an advocate for Kenzu. People like B. David Sanders, who became an advocate for Kenzu. And these people have been running around for decades talking about how he's imminently about to be released or he should be released, or everyone's horrible for not releasing him. I think these women who get involved with Kenzu feel in their hearts that he's about to get out. I feel like they've been fed that for years. I feel like he's feeding them that. I feel like people around him are feeding them that. And that creates an environment where even if he cannot do anything to them at this moment, while he's on a line in a, in a prison and he can't get to them, I think a lot of them expect him to get out at some point, or at least there's enough of a possibility of that that they are actually in fear for their lives as well, because they feel that if I cross him and he gets out, I'm going to have a real problem on my hands, and I may actually be in physical danger and I may even lose my life. I think the fear he instills in them is also piggybacking off of the kind of innocence fraud movement that is carrying him. And I think that's odious. But I think they feel like they're actually in danger. And I'm here to tell, tell you the listeners, and certainly, hopefully this gets back to people who might find themselves in this situation with Kenzu, you know, to be the next, you know, woman helping him out on the outside or other similar abusers and predators who are incarcerated. You know, I mean, certainly in Kenzie's case, he's not getting out. And, and for everyone else, you know, there are resources that can help you be safe. And just because you have not been hit physically does not mean that you're not in an abusive and coercive relationship. And it's really important to get.

[B]

You don't have to live this way. You should be with someone who makes you feel special and not someone who makes you feel terrible or, you know.

[C]

What, you know, it's better to be. It's better to be alone and be confident in yourself and be secure in yourself than to be with someone who is trying to destroy you. Because I can't say anything less than that is what he was trying to do. That is what I heard on these tapes. Trying to destroy this woman, to break her down and mold her to be to his specifications, and to his specifications is basically somebody who will not think and not have any independent thoughts and not have any independent actions and will just be a vessel for what he wants at all times. And, and maybe even further than that, can also anticipate all of his random needs. And so I just think that these women thought he was getting out. I think there's still fear about that. I, I, in his case, I don't think that's likely at all. And I think that he is, is a bully who will just not will not stop. There's no fixing him. There's no making him nicer because it's not coming from anyone else. It's not about what anyone else is doing to him. It's coming from him internally. That's where the, the toxicity is coming from. So, you know, I just, I wanted to say that because I feel. Do you feel like I'm being fair here in terms of where some of the. Why they're sticking with him?

[B]

Yeah, you're being very fair. And well said. I'm glad you made a point of saying that. Thank you.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm going to step in here and wrap up by telling you the rest of the story. As I mentioned, Mr. Kinzu and Denise were still married when she died of ovarian cancer in 2012. What happened after that can be found in public records. After she passed away, Mr. Kinzu tried to pursue legal actions against her heirs in an effort to get whatever more he could from them. But it turned out that all of her talk over the years about her money problems, all of her talk about how she was spending everything she could on him and running up huge debts in order to do everything she could to help him, all of that was true. Her estate was valued at a little under $6,000. And all of that was consumed by funeral expenses. So there was nothing to give him. But Mr. Kinzu saw another way to perhaps make a dollar off of Denise. He suggested that her family file a wrongful death action against her doctors because in his point of view, it had taken them too long to give her a diagnosis. Her son explained to Mr. Kinzu's attorney in a letter in the public file why that would not work. It is true that there were some issues with my mother getting a correct diagnosis when the pain came back after her initial hysterectomy and tumor removal. Unfortunately, it is also true that after the surgery and before the pain returned, my mother, with the insistence of Mr. Kinzu, delayed the start of the chemotherapy treatment recommended by her doctors for at least two and a half months. A fact I reminded Mr. Kinzu of in our conversation. End quote. In other words, Denise had believed Mr. Kinzu when he told her he was intelligent. He had believed her. She believed him when he told her that he had advice worth following. And so she had followed that advice. And that advice may have been what killed her. So in our next episode we were hear from Mr. Kinsley on a variety of other topics including his phony religion and race, his views on race, his views on race. We will also hear what we feel is an incriminating statement about his role in the murder of Scott Macklemore. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[C]

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[B]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web at Kevin TG.

[C]

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.