Anya Cain (3:18)

Experian Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder as well as sexual violence.

Kevin Greenlee (3:27)

So today we're going to talk about wrongful convictions. And I think the most important thing to say about wrongful convictions right at the top is they do happen. The system is not perfect. It is filled with human beings. Human beings are capable of making mistakes. But at the same time, it's important to acknowledge that one of the few things, or one of the relatively few things that I think judges, prosecutors, police officers, defense attorneys, everybody in the system can agree on, is that no one wants an innocent person to be convicted. And so because of that, it's very hard to convict someone of a crime. And it's very hard. It's hard to make it stick if there's any problem with it, because the system is really designed to lean towards protecting the rights of the innocent. Does that make sense?

Anya Cain (4:29)

Yes.

Kevin Greenlee (4:30)

And the reason we're talking about all of this now is that there is a case lately that has been getting some attention that actually took place in my hometown, Columbus, Indiana. This involves a murder that happened in 1997. Murder of Sharon Myers, woman in her mid-20s, new mother was killed. A guy named Jason Hubble was convicted in 1999 of that crime. And recently the verdict in that case was overturned and he was ordered to get a new trial. And that's where things stand there. And I think it's important to talk about this case, and I want to talk about it in a different way than we often talk about wrongful convictions. Because usually you see this story say, oh, here's a wrongful conviction, or here's a verdict getting overturned. And that kind of sets in your mind a framework of how you view everything. And I don't want to start at the end. I don't want to start with the wrongful conviction, the alleged wrongful conviction. I want to go all the way back to the beginning and look at the evidence that the jury was given in this case so we can understand the verdict and then go forward from there. And as we do this, I think it's important to keep two questions in mind. Number one is, did Jason Hubble kill Sharon Myers? And number two is, did Jason Hubble get a fair trial? And it is entirely possible that the answers to those questions may be different. But for the courts at this point, the most important question is the second one. Was his trial fair? And I think at the end of this episode, we're going to give our opinions.

Anya Cain (6:31)

Yep. Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (6:33)

So we'll tell you what we think.

Anya Cain (6:34)

But can I just set you up, though? Can you tell the listeners what you've all read and how long that's been and the process here? Because I don't, I don't want people to think that you're just, you know, we're just talking about this based on some Newspapers.com clips.

Kevin Greenlee (6:52)

Well, I did read all the Newspapers.com clips about the original trial. I've also read all of the extensive filings in this case, all the post conviction appeals. I've read the filings from the state, from the prosecutor, from the defense attorneys, and of course, I read the final decision by the judge.

Anya Cain (7:12)

How many pages would you say that is in total? About approximately.

Kevin Greenlee (7:16)

Oh, not too bad. Maybe six or seven hundred.

Anya Cain (7:18)

There you go. Okay. I just wanted to throw that out there.

Kevin Greenlee (7:21)

Okay, let's.

Anya Cain (7:22)

Let's go into it. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

Kevin Greenlee (7:26)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

Anya Cain (7:28)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

Kevin Greenlee (7:30)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

Anya Cain (7:36)

We're the Murder Sheet.

Kevin Greenlee (7:38)

And this is the murder of Sharon Myers. The overturned verdict. SAM so Sharon Myers was murdered on May 13, 1997. Ms. Myers worked in the human resources department at a business called Arvin in Columbus, Indiana. Her job there was, you know, she'd answer employees questions about benefits and stuff. She'd help out with paperwork. She'd handle some paperwork. And in that capacity, she came to have some interactions with Jason Hubble, the man later convicted of her death. And people indicate that the relation between the two of them often seemed tense and edgy, and that Ms. Myers, in particular, seemed to have the feeling that Hubble was trying to game the system, trying to manipulate things so he could maximize his benefits, perhaps in, you know, ways she didn't consider on the up and up.

Anya Cain (9:24)

Okay.

Kevin Greenlee (9:25)

And so there's some tension there. And I suppose he would say that he was frustrated with her because she wasn't cooperating with whatever it was he wanted to Do. So on the morning of May 13th, in the morning, a woman named Sherry Young is coming to work, and she sees what she describes as a man and a woman walking away from her at the north end of this parking lot. And the man has his hand on the woman's back around the lower part of her neck, and he's a little bit taller than her. And she sees this couple go into a white van, and then it drives away. And something about this just strikes her as not something about it catches her attention. And she even goes so far as to make a note of the license plate. And also, I should say that as the van is going out of the lot, the driver of the van looks at her, and she makes eye contact with him, and she gets a very good look at him. And as I say, this is the day that Sharon Meyers is killed. And she's killed after being kidnapped in this parking lot. And so what this woman witnessed was the abduction of Sharon Myers. Terrible thing to witness. As I say, she got the license plate. The license plate is traced back, and it is found that it is linked to a white van owned by none other than Jason Hubble. So police go and speak to Hubbell. Once it's determined that Ms. Meyers is missing, he tells the story. Oh, I was just here all morning. I was nowhere near Arvin. But that story doesn't really hold up because in addition to the eyewitness testimony placing him there, there's also some high school kids in the area who observed that his car, who. His van wasn't in his driveway that morning. So he's lying. I mean, let's just say he's lying about his whereabouts that morning. So that. That. That is significant, wouldn't you agree?

Anya Cain (12:02)

I would agree. That's extremely significant. And also, I guess having a witness know the license plate number, that's pretty significant, I think. It's one thing to have a witness say, hey, I think it looked like Jason Hubble, you know, that. I mean, maybe a lot of people look like that. I don't know. But having someone be able to pinpoint a license plate number that leads back to a person's vehicle or a vehicle linked to that person, and they are known to have a bad relationship with the victim, that's very damning.

Kevin Greenlee (12:39)

And, yeah, and the. The license plate links back to a vehicle that matches the description of the vehicle she saw. So if you want to say, oh, she got the wrong license plate number, it would have to be an amazing coincidence that the number she got incorrectly also linked Back to a vehicle of the technical description.

Anya Cain (13:01)

Right. Yeah, it's, it's, it's damning. And, you know, and if it was a situation where it was like, oh, yeah, well, we were carpooling or we were, you know, like, if there was something where there would be an explanation for them being together at that time, that would be one thing. But he's saying he's not even there. Well, then why. Why is someone seeing you there? So his story doesn't at all cover this in any sort of satisfying way.

Kevin Greenlee (13:24)

So he talks to the police. The. The lead investigator becomes a man named Dennis Nolf, who we will be hearing more from. So I want to highlight something he said early on in one of his interviews. He's told that the police think he might be responsible for Ms. Meyer's disappearance and death. And according to the police report, Hubble said it might be possible. He can't say he did do it, but he has prayed to God every night since that it isn't so end quote.

Anya Cain (14:03)

That's a weird thing to say.

Kevin Greenlee (14:05)

Yeah. I would think if you were wholly innocent of a crime, you wouldn't say what might be possible. That I did it.

Anya Cain (14:13)

Yeah, no, that's not. That's not normal. And it's sort of setting up the whole, oh, maybe I blacked out and did something bad sort of nonsense that you hear from a lot of people who don't want to admit what they did, but they're walking up to that point.

Kevin Greenlee (14:27)

Yes. I also want to mention that his. His van is searched, and on the inside of the van, they recover some distinctive fibers from a blanket that they were told they came from. A blanket. There's these distinctive fibers. And it is said that there was a blanket in the van, but that blanket is not in the van now. So we don't know what happened to the blanket. Now, let's flash, but let's flash forward a bit to after the. After Ms. Meyer's body is discovered some months later. There are some fibers on her body which are consistent with the fibers found in the van, probably from this blanket that is missing.

Anya Cain (15:16)

Okay. I want to throw something out there. And you may be. You may be gearing up to get into this, but are we going to talk about the crime scene or how she was killed or, like, where her body was discovered or details like that? In terms of just kind of giving people a sense of.

Kevin Greenlee (15:30)

Of that, we certainly can.

Anya Cain (15:32)

Yeah, I think we should. I would be interested, because that's going to be important later as some things.

Kevin Greenlee (15:37)

Come up well, she is found in an area of Camp Atterbury Till Marsh, which I should mention has some distinctive grass and some growth. And some of this distinctive growth from that area is subsequently found on the underside of Mr. Hubble's van. So, first of all, before we get more into the death scene, I think it's important to note we have a witness placing Ms. Myers getting into the van. We have the fibers which indicate she was in the van, and then we have this material underneath the van which indicates the van was at the site where the body was dumped. So I find all of that very, very compelling. Ms. Meyers died of strangulation from a ligature that was made from her own clothes.

Anya Cain (16:33)

Okay.

Kevin Greenlee (16:34)

And this is a detail which is discussed later, but I'll mention it now. After she was abducted, her shoes were found left behind at the crime scene.

Anya Cain (16:50)

And this is something I've been wondering. If you don't know, that's okay. I just figured I'd ask. And if you don't know, again, that's all right. But what kind of shoes were they? The reason I ask is because, you know, I'm curious if they were more of, like, formal shoes, pumps that would be easy to kind of be kicked off in a struggle, or if they were, you know, like, say, sneakers or tennis shoes, where they'd be more difficult to take off.

Kevin Greenlee (17:14)

I don't know what kind of shoes they are. My impression is that it feels. And from my reading, my strong impression is they just came off during the struggle.

Anya Cain (17:24)

That's what you would think. You know, if. So if there's, like, the abduction site and the shoes are removed in that situation, that it sounds like either she's trying to leave behind a clue that something's wrong, or they're kicked off in a struggle. But I was just. Yeah, but the type of shoe would also be a bit more like if, you know, if their boots, they have to lace off, those are not going to come off as easily in a struggle, whereas other types of shoes absolutely will.

Kevin Greenlee (17:51)

Exactly.

Anya Cain (17:51)

So I'd be curious. We don't know that at this point, but, you know, that's information that I'd be interested in. We all love true crime. That means getting to know a ton about some scary stories and situations. We are all aware of the danger, but that means we can prepare for the worst and possibly protect ourselves and those we love.

Kevin Greenlee (18:12)

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Kevin Greenlee (19:10)

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Kevin Greenlee (19:43)

2025 Experian Experian so in addition so now we know how she died and her body is a found. Her body is discovered roughly six months later. It's also worth noting that Mr. Hubble made some incriminating statements to people he was incarcerated with, a man named David Thomas. And Thomas testified at the trial that Hubble told him sometimes women need to be beat and sometimes killed. He also claims that Hubble said at one point I covered my tracks well. I've done a lot of planning. And this testimony from Thomas was corroborated from by an employee at the jail who said that Thomas told him those things contemporaneously when they happened. And there is also a his fiance also heard about those statements at the time. Mr. Hubble also worked with a guy named Michael Lofton at a lumber company and he also made some incriminating statements to Mr. Lofton, saying things like the police will never catch me, I'm smarter than they are and things of that nature. And Mr. Lofton shared some of these comments at the time with people, including the fact that A person testified that Lofton told him that a guy he worked with killed a woman. Okay, so we have him making incriminating statements. We have his van being seen at the crime scene. We have him lying about where he was that morning. We have an eyewitness placing him kidnapping Ms. Myers. We have the fiber evidence, we have the undergrowth that got caught on the underside of his van.

Anya Cain (21:40)

Okay, so he's obviously guilty.

Kevin Greenlee (21:43)

It's a pretty strong case.

Anya Cain (21:45)

Yeah. Yep. Well, why are we talking about this then?

Kevin Greenlee (21:49)

He, yeah, he is found guilty, but that's not the end of it because there has been a motion filed in the case that made some pretty strong accusations. Before I get into that, I should mention that the same year that Ms. Myers was killed in Columbus, Indiana, an 18 year old woman named Kelly Eckhart was killed in Franklin, Indiana. Or that she was abducted in Franklin, Indiana as she's walking home from her job at Walmart. Her body is also found in Camp Atterbury. She is also killed by a ligature strangulation made from her own clothes. And her shoes are not on her when she's discovered. But it's a different situation because her shoes were not left behind when she was abducted. Her shoes were found like stuffed down into like a fire pit or something.

Anya Cain (22:54)

Toilet. Toilet pit.

Kevin Greenlee (22:55)

Toilet pit. Pardon me, after her body was discovered. So that seems to be different.

Anya Cain (23:00)

I think there's a big difference between shoes being left at the site of an abduction where they can conceivably have been left behind by the victim or kicked off, and shoes being removed from a victim at the crime scene and concealed nearby by the killer.

Kevin Greenlee (23:15)

Exactly.

Anya Cain (23:16)

That's a big difference. That's not the same thing. Both victims are ultimately shoeless, but one seems to be some a killer manipulating a crime scene and the other one seems to be a byproduct of an abduction. So yeah, those are different things, but.

Kevin Greenlee (23:36)

There are enough similarities that obviously if you're a defense attorney, or frankly even if you're a police investigator, you should look at both of them together and at least consider the possibility maybe one person did both of these.

Anya Cain (23:51)

I agree. You have to look at the similarities here as well as the differences.

Kevin Greenlee (23:57)

A man named Michael Dean Overstreet was ultimately convicted of the murder of Ms. Eckhart. So earlier this year there was a very dramatic filing that comes out from a defense team representing Mr. Hubble. And they make all sorts of startling accusations about bombshell pieces of evidence and details that were not given to the defense team by the prosecutors at the time. And these bombshells and things of this nature tend to be things that suggest that Mr. Overstreet, the killer of Ms. Eckhart, was also the killer of Ms. Meyers. And some of it, when you first read it, I'll concede it sounds shocking.

Anya Cain (24:48)

Yeah, I mean, that's how these things tend to work.

Kevin Greenlee (24:54)

The one that got my attention the most was Mr. Overstreet's wife says that on the day Sharon Myers is abducted and killed, her husband, Michael Overstreet says, I'm going to use my brother's white van and I'm going to go down to Arvin's in Columbus to apply for a job. He is then gone all day and he comes back home covered in blood. That's an astonishing claim. And if we take it at face value, it's certainly disturbing. Would you agree?

Anya Cain (25:38)

I would agree. And this is Melissa Holland.

Kevin Greenlee (25:40)

Yes, this is Melissa Holland, who was married at the time to Michael Overstreet. But there are some problems when you look at it with this story. The first one is at the time of the murder of Ms. Meyers, where he is said to be going down to Columbus to apply for a job. He already had a job, and he would have been applying for another job during the working hours of the job he had. And there's really no reason to imagine why he would have done that. Another problem with it is, yes, his brother did have a white cargo van. And we have eyewitness testimony saying that Sharon Myers was kidnapped by a person in a van. But all testimony indicates that this van that belonged to Mr. Overstreet's brother was not a van that he was permitted to drive by himself. So it's hard to believe he would suddenly get permission to take his brother's van down there and commit this murder. And the other thing that's really, really striking is that in 1997, Ms. Holland, who was married to Mr. Overstreet at the time, she gave several recorded interviews to police. And in these interviews where she discusses things about her husband and things of that nature, she doesn't really indicate that she thinks he was involved in the Myers murder. And she kind of refers to, well, he did come home one day with blood on him, but she doesn't indicate then that this happened on the day of the Meyers murder. And so why do we imagine that her memory now would be better than her memory 30 some years ago?

Anya Cain (27:46)

Yeah, I, I, I have a question about this.

Kevin Greenlee (27:49)

Please do.

Anya Cain (27:50)

So did she meant, did in, in those recorded interviews, did they talk about the Sharon Myers case?

Kevin Greenlee (27:59)

Uh, there were a couple questions about it.

Anya Cain (28:01)

Okay, so, like, they're. The police are almost bringing it up as, like, a possibility, right? Yes. And in those recorded interviews at that time in the original investigation, she's not connecting the dots for them?

Kevin Greenlee (28:14)

No.

Anya Cain (28:15)

In the recorded interviews, at the very.

Kevin Greenlee (28:16)

Least, they're asking, did he know anybody in Columbus? Or things like that. So they're not explicitly asking about details of the murder itself, but they're giving her openings. And when she describes the incident at that time in the 97 interviews about him coming home with blood on him, what she said was, one time he come home without his wedding ring. I think that was the time he come home with blood on his clothes and he come home without his wedding ring. I accused him up one side and down the other for cheating on me and everything. And I was like. He was like, no. Finally he told me I had to take my ring off to wash the blood off my hands. I got in a fight. I'm like, whatever. I still didn't believe him. So she's indicating that the suspicion. The suspicion she had at the time were that he was cheating on her.

Anya Cain (29:10)

Okay. And so she's not. She's. She's not. So I take it that her later statements about this matter are more specific and tied to the Sharon Myers case.

Kevin Greenlee (29:22)

Now she's saying this definitely happened on the very Same day that Ms. Meyers was abducted and killed.

Anya Cain (29:31)

So suddenly her memory's really good on this.

Kevin Greenlee (29:35)

And I think generally we can imagine that a person's memory about an incident is better soon after that incident happened. And as time passes, the memory might not be as good.

Anya Cain (29:50)

So, interestingly, this person, this Melissa Holland, appeared on a true crime documentary series for investig discovery that aired on February 11, 2018, called First Love Forever Evil. So she's made some of the rounds in terms of true crime productions. I'm just. I think that's important to note here. At some point, it becomes almost like, oh, I'm. I'm. Well, we'll see. I'll let you say what else happened here.

Kevin Greenlee (30:20)

Well, I mean. And again, in this. In these interviews, she specifically asked about Sharon Myers. He mentioned. The detective says at one point, I'm quoting from the transcript, there's the discovery of another body recently. The young girl's name was Sharon Meyers. Are you familiar with her? No. Do you know if your husband is familiar with her? No. And again, you would think if she's telling the truth now when she says that, oh, he came in on the very day of the murder covered in blood. And I've been thinking he was guilty of this crime ever since she had an opportunity to tell it with police in this recorded interview and she didn't take it. And so I have some real problems with this story.

Anya Cain (31:06)

I think there's some serious credibility issues right there.

Kevin Greenlee (31:09)

And also I can't get past the fact that evidence suggests that Mr. Overstreet did not have easy access to his brother's white van to suddenly take it. And again, why would he, during working hours, Sudd decide, I'm going to go apply for a job in another town?

Anya Cain (31:31)

Also, how did he somehow magically put on a license plate that matched something to Jason Hubble?

Kevin Greenlee (31:37)

Yeah, that's the other thing. We all this talk about the, the abduction being linked to a white van. We know what white van it is because the, the eyewitnesses who saw it, she gave the license plate number.

Anya Cain (31:50)

A lot of this would be a lot more, it would be a lot more, I'd say, like gray area for me if we didn't have that license plate number. I might say, okay, well, I don't know, maybe he stole his brother's van that day or maybe he just happened to have it and they don't remember. I could, I could get into that mindset of like, maybe there's a chance there's two white vans, two white guys. Perhaps it's a different one. But that specific detail really anchors Jason Hubble into being the one who did this. And then all the other information we have, like the fiber matches, like his history of problems with Sharon Meyers, like his incriminating statements, just further that. So, yeah, I, I don't find Melissa Holland credible at all. And the question is, what happened there?

Kevin Greenlee (32:43)

Well, I, I, I don't find her credible either. What happened is there was a week long hearing on this case all the way back in February. And this detective, Mr. Nulf, about whom we'll have a lot more to say, I assure you. He was asked about this. Did you know that on the day of the murder, Mr. Overstreet is said to have traveled to Columbus to apply for a job and returned home covered in blood. And Nulf says, oh, in the back of my mind, I thought we had that. So he's saying now that he thinks he had this information, even though there's no evidence of this information showing up in the recorded interviews or in the written reports at the time. And I'm obviously not a police officer, I'm not an investigator, but I would think if I had a conversation with someone prior to starting the recorder and they said something like that, I would make sure they repeated it on the recording, and I would certainly mention it in explicit detail in my reports. So I. It's odd. What do you think?

Anya Cain (34:01)

He sounds like a guy who's just saying whatever. Like, you know, like, oh, yeah, I think we knew that there's certain people you talk to, and you can basically get them to say whatever you want because they never want to sound like they don't know something. That strikes me. And that specific statement is basically what has completely undermined this verdict.

Kevin Greenlee (34:22)

That's one of several things that completely undermined it. But, yes, it's a blockbuster story. And if he's saying, we had this in 1997 and I didn't give it to the defense, that's a huge problem.

Anya Cain (34:35)

Yeah. And the question is, is he. I mean, well, it doesn't matter now because they're going to get a new trial anyway. But is he accurate when saying that? If he is accurate, if he's saying, oh, no, we knew that, and we did not provide that to the original defense team, that's a catastrophic problem, as you can imagine. But if this is just a guy who doesn't want to sound dumb on the stand and is just kind of, you know, I mean, this guy, this detective, there's some real problems here with him in particular. Like, if you want to look at anybody who. Who's basically trashed this case, it is Dennis Null.

Kevin Greenlee (35:17)

Yeah, he's made some terrible errors in this case. And I think the defense attorneys for Mr. Hubble, they note that there was a lot of information that the police, by which I think largely they mean Mr. Null, kept from the defense, and they also acknowledge that this information was also kept from the prosecutors.

Anya Cain (35:45)

So, yeah, when you have police going rogue, if that is true, if that is true, that information was kept from both parties by police, then you have the seeds of destruction for any verdict, because that's not how things are supposed to work. And frankly, that the burden of all of this going down rests upon, you know, the detective doing that.

Kevin Greenlee (36:15)

There's also some smaller things that were mentioned that weren't given to the defense. Mr. Overstreet is said to have made a comment at one point to his wife about how the shoes were missing from Ms. Eckhart's body and also missing from Ms. Myers. And just saying, oh, you know, what do you think of that? And that's not necessarily incriminating of Overstreet.

Anya Cain (36:43)

But also, you have to believe Melissa Holland to Have that work, I guess.

Kevin Greenlee (36:48)

And also, you know, which I don't. A lot of this stuff is hearsay and would not have been admissible in court. But what you have to keep in mind is that Mr. Hubble had a very good defense attorney. And even if he was given stuff that was inadmissible, he may very well have taken that information and done his own investigation and come up with stuff that was admissible.

Anya Cain (37:15)

He needed to be able to have the opportunity to investigate this in a really strenuous way in order to possibly come up with a third party suspect that could have raised reasonable doubt for the jury. So, yeah, I mean, he needed. He needed everything. He needed everything that was relevant. Not just stuff that would be admissible in court, but just discovery, all relevant discoveries.

Kevin Greenlee (37:36)

He needed it all. And there's no justification for some of this stuff being taken and hidden from him.

Anya Cain (37:43)

Is the implication that the police were the ones not providing it?

Kevin Greenlee (37:48)

Yeah, this guy, as opposed to the prosecutor.

Anya Cain (37:51)

I know the prosecutor on this is dead.

Kevin Greenlee (37:53)

Yeah. Kathleen Burns. She's passed away. There's no indication that she was involved in that. Oh, and I want to say something else here. During the course of his investigation, Mr. Nullf compiled some investigative notes, which of course is normal and above board and what you'd expect. The trial defense nationally wanted those notes, but they were ruled not to be a part of discovery. But even if the notes themselves are not part of the discovery, if there's any information contained within them which would be potentially exculpatory of Mr. Hubble, then that, of course is something which should have been turned over to the defense. And it was not. And in fact, it looks like someone you know, presumably Mr. Null, went so far as to prepare a second version of his notes. And in that version, any suggestion of links to Overstreet to this crime were removed. I mean, I'm going to talk about some more of this stuff, this supposedly incriminating information about Overstreet, which I really don't think a lot of this stuff is super incriminating. And I'm not bearing the lead here. That's what I think. And I think even if the attorney at the time had had it and investigated it, I don't think it would have led anywhere. But it is very easy for me to say that now. And who knows what might have happened at the time.

Anya Cain (39:29)

I mean, listen, the outcome is the outcome or what may have been the outcome or whatever. But the thing is, the process has to be fair. And you need to be given every chance to do Everything you can for your client. And when you have police investigators not doing what they're supposed to do and violating people's rights, then regardless of whether it would have ultimately had an impact, that renders the situation unfairly so, it's extremely troubling. And it just, you know, I mean, this, I mean, it's appalling, frankly. I'm, I'm appalled. People should be angry about stuff like this.

Kevin Greenlee (40:05)

Yeah, I am. I'll give you another example. A man named John Masco says that he saw Overstreet and Sharon Myers arguing on a boat ramp in May of 1997. And this information was not shared with the defense. And again, okay, you think, well, this establishes that Overstreet knew Sharon Myers and it places them both together near where her body was discovered. This, this is huge. This is huge. But when you look at it a little bit further and a little bit deeper, this guy, Mr. Mascow also claimed that he saw Mr. Overstreet arguing with Kelly Eckhart at Walmart in August of 1997. And Kelly Eckhart was the woman who worked at Walmart who was killed by Mr. Overstreet. So he just seeing Mr. Overstreet with all these women who end up dead.

Anya Cain (41:06)

It'S almost like he's making it up for attention.

Kevin Greenlee (41:09)

And it turns out the day he says he saw the argument at Walmart, Ms. Eckhart wasn't even working. And then a few months later, after hubble is arrested, Mr. Mascow says, well, on second thought, the person I saw having this argument with Sharon Myers was not Overstreet. It was Jason Hubble.

Anya Cain (41:29)

So did this guy also see, like, Charles Manson and Sharon Tate arguing in Hollywood? I mean, who is this person? What a loser. Like, I, I, I, I want to say this, like, can I just, like, guys, we need to. Not all witnesses are created equal, okay? Like, there's people who will absolutely lie and make stuff up to get attention and to feel important. And you're thinking, why would anyone do that? Well, that's because you're a comparatively well adjusted person who isn't nuts and wouldn't do something like that. But you, you cannot underestimate how many people there are out there. How many people who are unsophisticated, bored, lonely, not doing anything, and basically want to insert themselves into a case so they can either feel helpful or powerful or get someone they don't like in trouble or whatever. So like, when people are saying, well, you know, these witnesses said, I, there's certain witnesses that are going to be Credible. And then there are others that aren't. And this is just one of those ones where it's like, no, he's changing his story. He's trying to fit it to this or that. That means nothing. His word means nothing. He's a liar.

Kevin Greenlee (42:36)

Yeah. And to the credit of the defense attorney, the original trial defense attorney in the case, in the hearing when all this came up, he said, well, I wouldn't have used this at the time because I find it unfruit.

Anya Cain (42:48)

I'm not an idiot.

Kevin Greenlee (42:50)

But again, he should have had the information.

Anya Cain (42:54)

Yes. There's a big difference between if it's going to ultimately change the outcome and if he should have had it, he should have had it regardless.

Kevin Greenlee (43:02)

Because you can never know what a skilled attorney or what a skilled investigator might be able to do. And I say, I, I don't think any of this stuff really implicates Mr. Overstreet.

Anya Cain (43:13)

I think it's like stuff that it would have, you know, when you hold up Overstreet against Hubble. Hubble, the evidence is there. Overstreet. There's some conjecture from some people who don't seem, frankly, very reliable. But I mean, a big thing with the media running with it now is everyone wants there to be a serial killer. Right. Everyone wants, oh, the wrongfully convicted man and the serial killer who got away with one of the murders. And it's like, you know, I, that's a, that's a narrative that's, you know, people like. But it's, it. I don't think that would have sailed at the time because there's just not a lot here with Silver street stuff. It's just, it's, it's not much.

Kevin Greenlee (43:53)

So I want to read a few things that were in Mr. Nulf's notes which were not shared with the defense. An ISP detective mentioned to me that a guy named Jack had said something about Michael Overstreet's brother knowing Sharon Myers. He also said that the detective would be talking with a female that may have some information for us. Again, not super significant, but if I'm the defense attorney and I know that a suspect in another murder case might have a connection to the victim in my murder case, I want to have that information because it also could go.

Anya Cain (44:35)

Toward forming a nexus to introduce a third party suspect. Yes, right. I mean, forget even just what's an. Like, you need to have a nexus. You need to be able to link things to a certain extent to get a judge to sign off on a third party defense. And all of this could have at least gone toward that at a trial.

Kevin Greenlee (44:54)

To try to raise some reasonable doubt.

Anya Cain (44:55)

To raise reasonable doubt.

Kevin Greenlee (44:56)

Here's. Here's another example Null has. In his notes, I received a voicemail from Terry Nicholson of the Johnson County Sheriff's Department. He informed me that the Kelly Eckhardt suspect, Overstreet, had worked with Sharon Meyer's husband at one time. And that's not shared with the defense attorney. And again, that's something I don't believe that turned out to be correct. But that's something that, in theory, could have helped show a connection between Mr. Overstreet and Ms. Myers.

Anya Cain (45:28)

You can't play a card game when you've taken out a bunch of cards from your opponent's hand. Right. Because maybe you would have won anyway, but that's still cheating, and that's not how the game is supposed to be played. I have a question. Did Nulf give any reason for these pretty significant omissions on the stand when confronted or. You know.

Kevin Greenlee (45:57)

He said that at the time of the deposition that he gave back at the time of the original trial, he didn't notice that the defense attorney wasn't breaking up some of these things. And the current judge says, quote, this court does not find Nullf credible.

Anya Cain (46:14)

No, they shouldn't. This. I mean, this is outrageous.

Kevin Greenlee (46:19)

The current judge writes with the amount of information pertaining to Overstreet that Null was made aware of, and Nulf's admission that he did not follow up on any of it, and considering his, quote, redrafted investigative notes, which show all information pertaining to Overstreet being removed, it would have been impossible for Nullf not to notice.

Anya Cain (46:40)

You know, I see that they reference tunnel vision, and sometimes defense attorneys bring up tunnel vision. It's like, yeah, because the evidence points to your client. Sorry, but. But there's. That. There's like, okay, we looked at a bunch of people, but the evidence is against this guy. And then there's, like, taking stuff out to avoid mentioning it to the defense attorney. I mean, that's. To me, that's true tunnel vision. That's something where it's like, I'm not even gonna let the opposing side know about this. You know, and again, it's. That. That's not how it's supposed to work. You cannot tie the hands of your, you know, opponent. Like, it's just not fair.

Kevin Greenlee (47:21)

Yeah, it's. It's not fair.

Anya Cain (47:22)

And I. And I mean. And again, when you started talking about this, part of me was almost like, well, is there a possibility that they basically just got nilf to say something on the stand that kind of crashed everything down based on these kind of frankly fraudulent sounding claims from shoddy witnesses. Like did they almost use Melissa Holland as a Trojan horse to come in and disrupt this and get the verdict overturned by having an elderly detective say something on the stand of like, well, I don't know. I think I knew that. But it sounds like the problem here is a lot more significant than just that. So I. That's not, that's not. That was my initial impression, but it feels like here there was a concerted effort by Null to not provide the defense with what they needed around this possible third party suspect.

Kevin Greenlee (48:18)

Yeah, I'm going to read another bit from the judge's ruling in the case. Quote, the court finds that Null intentionally failed to truthfully inform the defense attorney of the information he was aware of linking Overstreet to Meyers and implicating him in Meyer's murder as an alternate suspect. Nullf's testimony was misleading and was a significant barrier to the defense attorney in gaining information or being able to investigate information that could be material and substantive to the presentation of his alternate suspect theory to person suspect theory or used to impeach witnesses such as Knulf.

Anya Cain (48:58)

Yeah, I mean, that seems fair.

Kevin Greenlee (49:00)

So.

Anya Cain (49:03)

It'S not just a ploy here. It's the reality that this detective.

Kevin Greenlee (49:10)

In.

Anya Cain (49:11)

What seems like a very intentional way just from this reading about it, really botched this case in a way that is catastrophic.

Kevin Greenlee (49:23)

He. And I should say it's the supposed links to Overstreet that are getting the media attention. But it's also mentioned in the filings that information potentially pointing to other suspects was also not shared with the defense. And I use the word suspect very, very loosely. I'm basically saying anything that might indicate that there might be another person, I.

Anya Cain (49:55)

Mean, like, what is wrong with this guy? Like what? You know, I mean, this is. That's disgraceful. And that's. And that's. It's terrifying that this person may have worked on other cases.

Kevin Greenlee (50:12)

For instance, here's an item, an item that was suppressed. Had heard that Sharon Meyers had been seen in the Lowe's store just days ago and had been in an argument with a male. Her husband confirmed they had been in there just prior to the incident. He was not sure what day it was, but he did become angry with her and raised his voice. Now, obviously, Sharon Meyer's husband had nothing to do with the murder. But if you're a defense attorney and there's information that your victim was in a public Argument with someone just days before the murder. You want that information to investigate it.

Anya Cain (50:55)

Here's the problem with, like everything. This is a very nuanced case. And something can be important enough for it to be shared in discovery and just part of discovery. So therefore should be shared and not necessarily influence Kevin and I's opinion on the overall facts of the actual murder. Right. They're two different things. As we mentioned at the top, there's who murdered Sharon. And then there is was the trial against Hubble fair? And all of this goes toward the trial being not fair because the defense was hamstrung from the beginning by dishonest tactics when it came to the police providing them with discovery. And again, when I hear the case against Tubble, I don't feel like any of these minor things would have changed the outcome. But that does not mean that it is fair to not share it with the defense. No one else, no one gets to make that call. The defense gets to decide what is important and what they can do something with. And heck, maybe you have a skilled enough attorney, something happens or they're able to get something, or they're able to go for a deal instead of, I like you, just. You can't know how it's going to affect everything. But that's not. That's not up to anyone to say, well, oh, well, it wasn't important. So we just didn't include it. No, like you have to include stuff like this. And it just seems like there was a concerted effort not to do that. And of course the media is running with overstreet because the media just wants everything to be a serial killer. I mean, I'm just gonna call it like, you know, and it's. Oh, it's oh, another. Another overstreet case. Okay. It. It's more interesting to me the. The depths of duplicity as far as the discovery handling. And it makes me concerned. Were there other cases from this time that this detective work where. Worked where something similar happened? And I'm sure people are going to be looking at those cases with a new. With a new lens after all this came out.

Kevin Greenlee (52:58)

So if you were wearing a hat, as frankly you should be, I would tell you now to hang onto it.

Anya Cain (53:05)

Oh, God, what now?

Kevin Greenlee (53:08)

So Null, during the course of his investigation, he becomes convinced, obviously, that Mr. Hubble is the guilty man. He doesn't pursue other leads. And for a time, the prosecutor doesn't believe that there is enough probable cause yet to file charges. Nullf is frustrated by this and he gives an interview to Local media.

Anya Cain (53:37)

Are you kidding me?

Kevin Greenlee (53:39)

And so because of that, he ends up being removed from the case. So it's also obviously improper for a police detective to go and complain and give interviews about cases he's working on.

Anya Cain (53:56)

That's clown behavior. You know, you're trying to pressure the prosecutor's office, which is those. Their job is to prosecute. Your job is to police and investigate. You know, you don't make that call. And perhaps there's certain instances where a prosecutor is too cautious, but it's not appropriate to go to the press and complain about that.

Kevin Greenlee (54:18)

So a new detective is given the case. He reviews, obviously the reports and stuff filed and prepared by Mr. Null. It's said that he never asked Mr. Null questions about the case. So he's just going on what's in the written record, which we now know is not complete and which might also contain. Which might also not contain things that may have been removed at some point by Mr. Nulf. So that further causes problems. Jesus. And so I guess this is where we end up. I think my personal opinion is if I was on the jury, I would have voted to convict Mr. Hubble. Would you?

Anya Cain (55:05)

Yeah, 100%.

Kevin Greenlee (55:07)

I believe he is guilty of this crime.

Anya Cain (55:09)

He obviously murdered a young mother, probably because he's somebody rageaholic misogynist. So I don't feel bad for him at all. But I do think he got a very unfair trial.

Kevin Greenlee (55:20)

I don't think his trial was fair. And I say that even though, you know, I don't think any of these new bits of information are. I think a lot of them are credible. And I think the ones that are credible, they don't change the fact that it was a van with Mr. Hubble's license plate being driven by a man identified as Mr. Hubble who kidnapped Sharon Myers.

Anya Cain (55:49)

Yeah, it doesn't. It. That's hard to dislodge that the actual.

Kevin Greenlee (55:53)

Evidence that convicted this man is untouched by all of this. But. And this. I'm not happy with this. He did not get a fair trial.

Anya Cain (56:05)

No, not at all.

Kevin Greenlee (56:06)

His. His attorney should have had access to this information, a lot of it, in its present form. It wouldn't stand up. It wouldn't have stood up under cross examination. A lot of it is hearsay. But perhaps the defense attorney could have gotten something admissible out of it. I don't know.

Anya Cain (56:22)

You never know what's going to happen. But it's just the. The rules are. And, and our trials are supposed to safeguard the right of the individual and the. And the defendant and that's primarily, you know, what. What our constitution says. So you have to abide by the rules which are set up to engender that. And this work by null is shameful. This is shameful. This is absolutely not fair. And as far as I can tell, you know, looking through this with you, this is a case where a police detective is essentially undermined. A case where a guilty man was appropriately punished for murdering a young mother. And he's going to probably walk because of this.

Kevin Greenlee (57:11)

Well, yeah. The question is, what's going to happen next? It's possible the. The. The current Bartholomew county prosecutor, who had no role in any of this, she may choose to try to appeal it, and if so, more power to her. If not, she needs to decide, and she will decide. Am I going to refile the charges? Because, again, this crime happened in 1997. The trial was in 1999. I don't have to tell you folks, that was a long, long time ago.

Anya Cain (57:47)

People die.

Kevin Greenlee (57:48)

People die. Who knows what the current state of some of the evidence is?

Anya Cain (57:52)

The evidence degrades.

Kevin Greenlee (57:55)

It may be very difficult to retry this case.

Anya Cain (57:59)

So this creep might walk because this police officer couldn't do his job properly. That's great. You know, this is why it's important to also constantly hold law enforcement to a high standard, because you have cases like this where, you know, everyone else could be doing their jobs appropriately. The judge, the prosecutor, and the defense attorney. It just takes one detective to decide, well, the rules don't apply to me, and I'm just going to do whatever and not hand over stuff I need to hand over, and that's going to completely derail everything. And in that case, as much as I think that Jason Hubble committed this crime, he absolutely deserves a new trial, because this first trial was not fair. And that's it. And so the judge in this case made the right call, I think, by asking for a new trial. As frustrating as it is. I'm sure it's agonizing for Sharon Meyer's family, but it's. It's unfortunate. It's just. It's so unfortunate. My heart goes out to them. I mean, they're having to deal with the possibility of this guy getting out. And of course, the media is going to, you know, run it as like, oh, isn't it nice he got out? And it's like they're. They're not looking at any, like, I.

Kevin Greenlee (59:09)

Know it's a serial killer.

Anya Cain (59:11)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's this. You know, that's not the point here. The point here is what the hell was going on in Columbus in the 90s where this was happening.

Kevin Greenlee (59:18)

That's why I wanted to start by looking at, here's the evidence that convicted him. And that evidence is not touched in any way by any of this new stuff. That evidence still stands. And it's important to remember that just because a verdict gets overturned and a new trial is awarded, that does not necessarily mean that a person is innocent of the crime charged.

Anya Cain (59:45)

I mean, let's look at our history. Right when DNA came to the forefront, there were cases that were overturned where it was like someone was raped and murdered and it turned out the DNA matched someone else, not the person convicted. Those people were factually innocent and yet they were convicted. There can also be situations where someone, their conviction is overturned, maybe they walk ultimately, because there's no new trial. That does not make them factually innocent. People get away with murder. No one likes to think that, but they do. And the second. So I mean, I guess the two questions are who killed Sharon Myers? And for both of us, I think it sounds like we're convinced that Jason, Jason Hubble and two, did Jason Hubble get a fair trial? And the answer is no.

Kevin Greenlee (60:33)

And I, I want to say, if you're like me, there's a big part of you that is frustrated and angry about this, that a person who is guilty might get away with it. That, that's very upsetting. But also there's a part of you that should be proud of our system, because our system is designed to protect defendants rights. And our government has the power to take away a person's freedom. Our government has the power to execute people. It should not be easy to use that power. It should be difficult. And the process by which the government exercises that power, it's very important that it be as fair as possible. So as frustrating as this is, it is a testament to how seriously we take rights of defendants and the rights of the accused in this country.

Anya Cain (61:35)

And we have to also always look at agents of the government such as Dennis Nelf. And if there is indications that things like that are going on, police agencies and the public need to respond swiftly and firmly that that is not acceptable. And that cannot stand. Because not only do you have undermined verdicts like this, where if all this had just been left on the table, the outcome probably would have been the same, but the verdict would be safe. Or, you know, or you have people being possibly wrongfully convicted who are factually innocent and you have things operating in an unfair way and people's rights being violated and that. That should not stand. So exposing this stuff is important and, like, should not, you know, should just be a lesson like certain people should not be in a position of power in. In. In policing if. If they're going to do stuff like this. It's one thing to make a mistake. We all recognize that police officers and detectives are. Are human beings. Mistakes can be made. Errors can happen. But something as. As calculated as this is, is. Is disturbing to hear about.

Kevin Greenlee (62:49)

For me, Anya and I have not done any court reporting in person, I think, since the Richard Allen case, because we're traumatized. But there is. There is a. On October 2nd, and we're going to go there and see what happens. It should be interesting. Mr. Hubble's team has asked for bail. They've also asked for a speedy trial. That may just be a way to try to get him out on bail. We'll see. And at least at the time we record, I haven't seen any formal notice of appeal filed by the prosecutor in the case. I don't know what her thinking is. It's very clear. She also believes Mr. Hubbell is guilty. But before she makes any decision about whether or not to bring him to trial again, she needs to carefully examine the evidence she has and determine whether or not she thinks she can get another conviction.

Anya Cain (63:56)

Yeah, a prosecutor can't bring charges if they don't feel like they're gonna win. That's ethically not right. So that will be interesting to see what happens there. But I think there's a good chance that he ends up walking over this from. From what I'm hearing and from how old this case is. But if they feel like the evidence is still strong enough and they can present it to a new jury, then I imagine they will do that. Because this prosecutor's office, Bartholomew county, has certainly fought every step of this. But again, you know, if. If the. If a. If a. Basically a detective in the situation kind of undermines the case from the beginning, then that foundation, you know, collapses, and no one else can do anything about that.

Kevin Greenlee (64:40)

But certainly if she thinks she can do it, more power to her. Yeah, I believe this guy's guilty.

Anya Cain (64:49)

Oh, this guy's. Yeah, this guy's guilty. And like, we don't need to celebrate this person. We can celebrate the. Him for acting as it should, but we don't need to, you know, boohoo to this guy. You know, he absolutely deserved to be in prison. He killed a young woman. He killed. She. She was a new mother. I mean, this is what he did is heinous. So, I mean, we don't need to shed any tears about him. We can save that for Sharon Myers and her family, but we can also acknowledge that the system reacted appropriately here. And, you know, I'm sure that was a difficult decision for that judge, but it, it needed to be done. You can't, you can't have things occurring in an unfair way. I think sometimes people, you're like, oh, well, he's guilty. Just leave him in. That undermines the rights of everybody. That undermines innocent people that, like, we can't, you know, we, you can't just, like, let, let injustice stand, regardless of whether the evidence, you know, it just, this is just, this was not fair. So they have to either do it again or drop it.

Kevin Greenlee (65:50)

So we'll let you know what happens at the next hearing.

Anya Cain (65:52)

Yep. Thanks, everyone.

Kevin Greenlee (65:54)

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

Anya Cain (66:15)

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Kevin Greenlee (66:38)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.

Anya Cain (66:50)

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