The Mystery of DB Cooper: The Parachute that Doesn't Hold Air

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Mystery of DB Cooper: The Parachute that Doesn't Hold Air"

Release Date: December 3, 2024
Podcast: Murder Sheet
Hosts: Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee

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Introduction to the DB Cooper Case

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee delve into the enduring mystery of D.B. Cooper, the unidentified man who hijacked a plane in 1971, extorted ransom money, and parachuted into obscurity. Despite decades of investigation, Cooper's identity and fate remain elusive, fueling numerous theories and speculations.

Kevin Greenlee opens the discussion by recapping the infamous hijacking:
"Back in 1971, a man now known as D.B. Cooper hijacked a plane, demanded ransom money, and then parachuted into darkness, never to be seen or heard from again."
(Timestamp: [01:42])

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Recent Theories and Claims

The podcast explores a contemporary theory proposed by YouTuber Dan Greider, who suggests that Richard Floyd McCoy, a convicted skyjacker, might be D.B. Cooper. Greider asserts that McCoy and his family have discovered the parachute Cooper used during the hijacking, reigniting interest and debate around Cooper's true identity.

Áine Cain introduces the new development:
"Perhaps you saw media coverage of it over the holiday weekend. A YouTuber named Dan Greider has publicized some claims made by the family of the late Richard Floyd McCoy."
(Timestamp: [01:59])

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Expert Insights: Interview with Eric Ulis

To scrutinize these claims, the hosts interview Eric Ulis, a seasoned expert on the DB Cooper case. Ulis provides a comprehensive analysis, challenging the notion that McCoy is Cooper.

McCoy's Resemblance and Prior Activities

Ulis acknowledges the similarities between McCoy and the Cooper sketch but highlights critical discrepancies:
"McCoy resembles the sketch made of Cooper, and he later actually hijacked another plane."
(Timestamp: [01:59])

However, he counters that the FBI previously investigated McCoy and dismissed him as a suspect based on multiple factors, including eyewitness testimonies and McCoy's actions post-hijacking.

Ulis elaborates:
"There were about four or five primary witnesses, and all of them said he was definitely not DB Cooper. Additionally, McCoy was only 28 at the time, whereas Cooper was estimated to be around 50."
(Timestamp: [08:21])

Discrepancies in Parachute Evidence

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the parachutes provided to Cooper. Ulis explains the types of parachutes used and how the purported discovery of a parachute linked to McCoy does not align with the evidence from the original hijacking.

Ulis details:
"The parachutes found recently are completely different from those handed over to Cooper. The discovered parachute is an Air Force B4 rig, which does not match the Navy NB6 or NB8 rigs Cooper was given."
(Timestamp: [24:02])

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Analyzing the Parachute Evidence

The crux of Greider's claim hinges on the discovery of a parachute allegedly used by Cooper. Ulis methodically dissects this assertion, emphasizing the lack of tangible evidence connecting the parachute to the original hijacking.

Ulis asserts:
"There is zero evidence that the parachute found belongs to DB Cooper. It's akin to claiming the getaway car in a bank robbery was found, only to discover it's an entirely different model."
(Timestamp: [24:02])

Furthermore, he highlights procedural inconsistencies and the implausibility of such a discovery after five decades.

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Credibility and Motivations Behind Recent Claims

Ulis scrutinizes the credibility of Dan Greider and the McCoy family's claims, suggesting potential biases and lack of objective evidence.

Ulis comments on Greider:
"Dan Greider's tactics are questionable, and based on my dealings with him, I don't find him trustworthy in this context."
(Timestamp: [28:32])

He also touches upon the emotional motivations of McCoy's family members, who may wish to see their father as Cooper despite the lack of conclusive evidence.

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Media Sensationalism and Public Fascination

The episode critiques the media's role in amplifying such theories, often prioritizing sensational headlines over factual accuracy.

Ulis explains:
"The media can easily sensationalize stories like this, especially on significant anniversaries, fueling public interest despite the evidence being easily disprovable."
(Timestamp: [26:39])

He underscores the importance of critical thinking and reliance on verified information when evaluating new claims in cold cases.

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The Future of the DB Cooper Investigation

Looking ahead, Ulis expresses hope for advancements in forensic technology that might finally unearth Cooper's identity. He mentions ongoing efforts to obtain and analyze DNA evidence from Cooper's tie, which could potentially provide breakthroughs.

Ulis shares:
"The evidence from the tie doesn't lie. With modern DNA testing, there's a possibility to finally solve this case if the FBI cooperates with impartial investigators."
(Timestamp: [31:21])

He criticizes the FBI for withholding certain evidence and not fully utilizing available forensic tools, suggesting institutional barriers to resolving the mystery.

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Concluding Insights

The episode wraps up with Ulis emphasizing the necessity of objective analysis in true crime investigations. He encourages listeners to remain skeptical of unverified claims and to support evidence-based approaches in solving enduring mysteries like that of D.B. Cooper.

Ulis concludes:
"I want to know who the real guy was. I'm not interested in the fake DB Cooper. That's my guiding principle."
(Timestamp: [35:36])

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Key Takeaways

• Richard Floyd McCoy as D.B. Cooper: The theory lacks substantial evidence and is contradicted by eyewitness accounts and forensic data.

• Parachute Evidence: Recent claims about a discovered parachute are unfounded, with clear differences from the original equipment used by Cooper.

• Media Influence: Sensational media coverage can distort public perception, emphasizing the need for critical evaluation of new information.

• Forensic Advancements: Ongoing DNA analysis holds potential for finally solving the DB Cooper case, contingent on cooperation from investigative authorities.

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Notable Quotes:

• "The tie doesn't lie. The evidence from the tie doesn't lie, and the evidence doesn't have an agenda."
  — Eric Ulis
  (Timestamp: [31:21])

• "This parachute just doesn't hold air."
  — Eric Ulis
  (Timestamp: [37:11])

• "The FBI did its due diligence... but they just simply weren't the person."
  — Eric Ulis
  (Timestamp: [10:35])

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For those intrigued by unresolved true crime cases and investigative journalism, this episode of Murder Sheet offers a meticulous examination of the latest developments in the D.B. Cooper mystery, anchored by expert insights and a critical lens on emerging theories.

Transcript

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Back in 1971, a man now known as D.B. cooper hijacked a plane, demanded ransom money, and then parachuted into darkness, never to be seen or heard from again. Even now, no one is sure who he was or why he did what he did. But there have been many, many theories.

[Anya Cain]

And lately there's been a new one. Perhaps you saw media coverage of it over the holiday weekend. A YouTuber named Dan Greider has publicized some claims made by the family of the late Richard Floyd McCoy. The family claims that McCoy was D.B. cooper and that they actually have the parachute he used when he jumped into history. Some people think that story makes sense. They point out that McCoy resembles the sketch made of Cooper, and that he later actually hijacked another plane.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But there's a problem. The theory that McCoy is Cooper is not new. The Federal Bureau of Investigation looked into it decades ago and ruled McCoy out.

[Anya Cain]

So what's going on here? To find out, we went to Eric Ulis. Eric is an expert on the case and has talked us through the details of it before. We knew he was just the person to explain this newest wrinkle to us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Anya Cain]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the mystery of D.B. cooper, the parachute that Doesn't Hold Air.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So I guess to start off with Eric, our listeners remember you from your previous, you know, coming on our show to talk about JFK and DB Cooper. But, you know, can you just give us a little bit of a recap of some of the work that you've done on the DB Cooper case?

[Eric Ulis]

In particular, I've done quite a bit of work on a few different areas in the case. The primary area that I've spent. My efforts in the case have revolved around the tie and evidence that has been procured from the tie. DB Cooper left on board the jet a skinny black clip on tie that was recovered by the FBI in Reno, Nevada. And at the time the tie was recovered, it was a very little evidentiary value. But in recent years, with the advent of scanning electron microscopes, DNA testing and the like, it's actually served as a treasure trove of evidence. So I've really been spending a lot of time on that. Fortunately, there was a scientist, a guy named Tom K, who managed to get access to the tie on two separate occasions. Once in two, nine, once in 211. And at that time, he applied some. What are called carbon sticky stub. Sticky stubs to the tie, which enabled him to collect some of the particles from the tie. And then those particles were analyzed. So they kind of. They've pointed a certain direction. A lot of that data is the kind of stuff I've been digging into. But ultimately, I think that the scientific evidence that has come from the tie is pretty clear that DB Cooper was in research and development, was basically a metallurgist engineer. I identified one particle in particular, a titanium and antimony alloy that appears to point specifically to a company called REM Crew Titanium, which later became known as crucible steel. They were a major subcontractor for Boeing throughout the 60s and 1970s. Their titanium research lab involved a very small number of men who were engineers, and that ultimately, through a whole series of talking with people who work there and looking at a number of different things, everything from U.S. patents to, you know, scientific analysis of the particles and talking to metallurgists and so forth, ultimately has led me to focus on one person of interest in particular, a gentleman named Vince Peterson, who has long since passed. He passed in 2002. And I've communicated with the family, and I know quite a bit about Mr. Peterson. So that's really what most of my efforts have been. Have been spent on. Have focused on. But I'm very familiar with every aspect of the case. So even this. This newer. This newest stuff that's come out related to a parachute and everything else is. Is a little bit. Is a little interesting to me because I'm actually very familiar with all of this, and I'm very familiar with the people behind it as well. Dan grider, who's the YouTube gentleman behind it, Richard Floyd McCoy, his son and daughter, both of whom I've met. So, I mean, I know who these people are, and I'm very familiar with the evidence and everything around it. So I can speak pretty intelligently to the veracity of what we're dealing with.

[Anya Cain]

Here and not to hide the ball.

[Dan Greider]

I think what you're doing with the tie is valuable and is important and has the potential of real answers. I don't think this parachute discovery, for lack of a better word, has that potential. I. I don't want to hide the ball. I don't think Richard McCoy was DB Cooper without talking about the parachute stuff. Yet some people do believe he was D.B. cooper, and they believed it even before this parachute discovery, for lack of a better word. Was there reasons for thinking he was DB Cooper? Basically, he kind of vaguely looks like the. The sketch. And he was also someone who skyjacked.

[Eric Ulis]

A. I think that's exactly it. He conducted a copycat skyjacking in April of 1972. So five months later, and he got away with it. The only reason he got caught is because he had talked and he. The FBI knocked on his door one day and found $500,000 hanging out in his closet. So. But if you look at the sketch of Richard Floyd McCoy and you compare it to the original DB Cooper sketch, there is a striking resemblance. So it makes perfect sense to think, wow, this guy. Boy, this guy. This guy could be the guy, you know, I mean, he has to be high on the list. But very quickly, the FBI ascertained that he was not D.B. cooper based upon a number of critical things. The. Probably the most important thing is that there were a handful of premier witnesses, primary witnesses. The flight attendants who communicated with him sat and talked with D.B. cooper, that type of thing. And there was about five, I think four or five primary witnesses. And all of the witnesses said, quote unquote, that he was definitely not DB Cooper. So that's a very big problem. If the witnesses say, hey, well, we get that the sketch kind of resembles the image, but he's just. He's not the guy. He's definitely not the guy. The other thing is, Richard Floyd McCoy was only 28 years of age at the time of the skyjacking. And the witnesses pegged DB Cooper's age as close to 50, close to 50 years old. So you've got a, you know, you're off by 20 years there, which is a very, very big problem. Additionally, Richard Flood McCoy had a lisp. He spoke with a lisp. He was from North Carolina. Maybe he had a little bit of a southern twang in his accent. But neither one of those things were reported in the. From the witnesses, they said that DB Cooper had a non discernible American accent. So there's really nothing pointing to him being D.B. cooper that said the. The FBI did its due diligence. They took it seriously, they investigated him seriously, and ultimately eliminated the guy as, as a suspect.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was wondering, was there any evidence even, maybe even going further than that, pointing away from McCoy being involved? Like, our understanding is that there's some evidence that he was in Vegas at the time?

[Eric Ulis]

Yeah, there, there is evidence that indicates he was in Vegas as well as Utah shortly thereafter. The problem is there's nothing that absolutely pegs to precisely the time of the skyjacking. You know, I mean, he was in Utah the following morning. So it seems highly probable that he would have gotten back to Provo, Utah the next morning, you know, let's say 12 hours later or something. But it's not impossible to be sure. The same sort of thing with Vegas. So. But yeah, there's. There's evidence of that. And we've got witnesses that have also said that, you know, he was there, you know, in Utah, and there's just nothing to indicate that, that he was gone during that period of time and that he was the guy. So. And also it's important to note that he was somewhat sloppy. I mean, how he conducted his. He was a little more detailed, certainly more detailed in terms of what he ordered the pilots to do and so forth, but he was quite a bit more sloppy. In fact, one of the pieces of evidence that ultimately convicted him is that one of the demand notes he accidentally left with the flight attendant and she kept the Note and it had his fingerprint on it. And D.B. cooper executed his skyjacking almost flawlessly. One would think that if you had a second bite at the apple, so to speak, that if anything you would improve that you wouldn't, you know, all of a sudden kind of make all these mistakes, you know, like a rank amateur or something. So there really is just nothing that substantiates that, that he was D.B. cooper. And yeah, so again, the FBI comfortably eliminated him. And, and again, I understand he's on first blush, he's kind of a compelling interest based exclusively on the facts that he did something very similar months later and that there was a resemblance to the sketch, but he just simply wasn't the person.

[Dan Greider]

So this new bit of so called evidence involves the parachutes. So before we get into that, can you tell us what parachutes were used in this case? Where they came from, what they looked like, what we know about them.

[Eric Ulis]

DB Cooper requested four parachutes and the four parachutes were in the form of two front parachutes and two back parachutes. I believe what DB Cooper essentially wanted or expected was two regular back parachutes and two reserve parachutes that would normally clip to the front. So essentially two sets of parachutes, the main, coupled with a reserve, what they delivered to him ultimately were two back parachutes, but they were what are called emergency rig parachutes. They're parachutes that are designed for emergency situations. Like if you're a fighter pilot and you have to eject, you know, you're ejecting from the, from the jet, obviously under extraordinary circumstances. And it's a one shot deal. That that emergency rig parachute, if it doesn't work, you die. There's no reserve attached to it at the same time. So the thing about the emergency rigs is that they're extremely durable. I mean you can probably jump out of a plane at 500 miles an hour. And that thing, the thing's going to work, they never fail. So it definitely delivered DB Cooper to the ground alive. And those two back parachutes came from a gentleman named Norm Hayden, who has since passed. You know, he's in the FBI files, the 302s. We've read the files, we know what the rigs look like, the emergency backed rigs and everything else. And There are either NB6 or NB8 rigs, which are Navy parachutes, basically Navy emergency rig parachutes. Additionally, there were two reserve parachutes that came from a second source from the Issaquah Skyport, which was in Issaquah, Washington. The guy named Lynn Emerick, who was the head guy there at Issaquah Skyport, is the one who pulled out the two parachutes. The two reserve parachutes, one of which was perfect, perfectly functional, worked perfectly well, the other of which was actually inoperable and it was a dummied up emergency rig or it was a dummied up reserve parachute that was supposed to be used exclusively on the ground for training purposes. So it wasn't functional, didn't work, had half the canopy cut out, that kind of thing. So that was one of the two that he handed over to the Washington State Patrol, which was ultimately delivered to D.B. cooper. Unbeknownst to him, he didn't realize till later what what his error this holiday.

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[Eric Ulis]

Cooper jumped with one of the emergency back rigs and with that dummy reserve. He did take one of the reserve parachutes, the one that didn't function well. I firmly believe that he didn't take the and the two others he left behind one of the reserve. The other reserve that was left behind he cannibalized. He he opened it up and he took something approximately around 100ft of shroud line cut about 100ft of shroud line out of that parachute that he used to affix the money and bag and other items to his person before he jumped out of the jet. The other emergency back parachute that was delivered to him that was left behind on the jet was untouched. Perfectly, perfectly fine condition. So the dummy reserve parachute that he took, I do not believe that he intended to use it or secure it to his his body in any way as an, as a backup measure of, you know, additional measures security. Rather, I think the evidence is pretty clear that he actually used it to house some of the ransom money because when the ransom was delivered, it was delivered In a canvas white C First bank bank bag. Not very durable. And I think he immediately realized that that bag probably wasn't going to hold up under after jumping out of the plane and may break up and he may lose all the money. So I think he took some of the ransom out, put it in the dummy reserve and attached it to him in some manner. But that's, that's ultimately how that happened. The dummy reserve that D.B. cooper jumped with as well as the main emergency back rig that D.B. cooper jumped with, which was perfect, perfectly operational. Neither one of those has ever been found.

[Dan Greider]

Well, I guess now some people would say otherwise because there is this claim. What, what is the story people are telling about this discovery?

[Eric Ulis]

Well, amazingly, 53 years later, or I guess 52 years later, whatever, apparently this, this parachute was found in some storage unit related to the, the now late wife of Richard Floyd McCoy by the kids. I, I am very suspect of the story. You know, people finding evidence 52 years later is like, okay, a little too convenient. But having said that, irrespective of that, we've got photographs of the parachute that was found. We got photographs of the parachute that was handed over to the FBI. It is a completely different parachute than the one that was described by a gentleman named Earl Cossey who had packed the parachutes and was a parachute expert. He was very detailed. He knew exactly which parachutes had been handed over. The parachutes that had been handed over were Navy back NB6 or NB8 parachutes. And they look a certain way and they have certain components that make up those parachutes. The one that was found and handed over to the FBI recently, and I guess this was in September of 2023, so I guess it's been a little over a year at this point, is a completely different rig. It's a B4. It's an Air Force rig called a B4. And it has certain components to it, including D rings and cap wells and other things to it that are, were not incorporated. We're not part of the parachute that was handed to DB Cooper. So just looking at the parachute, any expert or knowledgeable person looking at the parachute can clearly see it's not the same parachute. It's kind of like saying the guy committed a bank robbery and drove off in a Mercedes Benz. And then somebody finds a Chevy Tahoe and tries to say, hey, we found the getaway car. No, it's two completely different vehicles. So it's, that's, that's the thing. So it's, it's very provable very easy to disprove. The veracity of the, of the find makes for good media attention and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, perhaps that was one of the motivating factors behind the story. But for our purposes, for those of us who were trying to solve the case and who were intellectually honest, I think it's absolutely clear that that has absolutely. That parachute has nothing to do with DB Cooper, is completely unrelated, and that the real parachute is still out there somewhere, just yet to be found.

[Dan Greider]

So what evidence they offer to suggest this was the actual parachute?

[Eric Ulis]

Well, I think there is zero evidence. I think what's tantalizing to the FBI, and I applaud the FBI for taking all these types of tips seriously. But what's. I think tantalizing the FBI is purportedly this parachute was owned by Richard Floyd McCoy. Now, Richard Floyd McCoy was a legit skyjacker. He did the same thing. He skyjacked the jet, was ultimately convicted, 45 years in prison. He ended up breaking out of prison and decided to get into a gunfight with the FBI, which he lost. He was killed on November 9, 1974, in a shootout with the FBI. So, but by virtue of the fact that apparently this parachute was one that was formerly in the possession of Richard Floyd McCoy. Yeah. Okay, let's take a look at it. You know, let's, let's make sure. Let's. Let's. Let's make sure that this thing is. Is not related. But very quickly, it, you know, after, upon looking, looking at it, becomes very quick to. To ascertain that there's absolutely no relationship. So I don't, I don't, you know, I don't have expressed any ill will or anything toward the FBI. They did their job. It's. And that's that it's very easy for somebody like Dan Grider to make a big deal out of it. The fact that the FBI interviewed him and the brother and sister of Richard Floyd McCoy, they actually took DNA, a DNA sample from Richard Floyd McCoy Jr. It's very easy to, you know, make a lot of ways and make a big deal out of it, because the case is basically been closed since 2016. But honestly, it's little more than the. What the FBI has done all along. For those of us who have read the, you know, 40,000 pages of FBI files, we can see many. The FBI took all the tips and all the suspects inquiries and so forth seriously. There's one person, for example, that professed to have a divining device. It was basically a jar with Alka Seltzer and soda water and with a little wire that would point to where the money was buried. The FBI took that tip seriously because they didn't know, is this Cooper, is this a kook or whatever the deal is. So, you know, they're just, they're just doing. They're exercising a measure of due diligence here. And that's all they've done here with this case is just exercise a measure of due diligence. It is not in any way, shape or form any kind of endorsement from the FBI saying that, you know, this is a legitimate find related to the DB Cooper skyjacking.

[Anya Cain]

Why do you suppose the media runs.

[Dan Greider]

With stories like this when they are so readily and so easily disprovable?

[Eric Ulis]

Well, I think part of it has to do with the fact that it just so happens that the 53rd anniversary of the skyjacking was literally on November 24, so just a handful of days ago. And this story happened to break, you know, within probably 24 or 48 hours of the anniversary. And that. That tends to happen. But it's, it's. It's a fascinating story. It's. It's a fascinating story. And I suppose it's an end. You know, the media can honestly report that the FBI sat down and interviewed Dan Grider and the kids and took possession of this, this evidence, quote, unquote, and DNA, and are looking into the case. And which again, to those of us who are in the know, we realize, well, that's not a big deal. It's not really a big deal, but it, it, it is. It's just very easy to sensationalize. And I think that it, you know, there, there's a lot of interest. There's a lot of interest in the DB Cooper case. I can see this, you know, globally, especially in the American speaking territories or countries, the U.S. canada, Great Britain, Australia, New Zealand. So I think it just, I think that has something to do with it as well. It's the kind of thing that the readers like to read about. So I imagine that that's. That's a big part of it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And I'm curious, having known some of the players at the heart of this recent development, do you have any other further insights? I'm trying to ask this question carefully so as to not, you know, automatically start a lot of drama. But I'm just like, in terms of the credibility issues here, in terms of the motiv. Any other insights on that?

[Eric Ulis]

Hey, drama comes with this case. It's all good. And anybody who Knows me, knows that I'm a straight shooter, and I don't bullshit when it comes to this kind of thing. So I just tell you, I think, you know, Dan Grider's a controversial figure. He's a very controversial figure. I know the guy personally. I don't like the guy personally, and I like pretty much everybody. So I think that's kind of saying something basically. I just think he's full of. To be perfectly blunt. That's my opinion, and I think I'm right about that. As for Richard Floyd McCoy's kids, the son and daughter, I think that they earnestly believe that their father may well have been D.B. cooper. I can understand that their dad was a. A skyjacker and, and was. Went to prison and everything else. So it's not. It's probably not difficult for them to make the leap and envision their father being a DB Cooper. But at the end of the day, if you want to really get to the heart of what this, you know, who, who was involved with this, you have to kind of remove emotion from it. You got to be very objective. You got to be intellectually honest. And I think it's a little difficult for family members, either yay or nay when it comes to the family.

[Anya Cain]

There.

[Eric Ulis]

There's some families that sort of want the family member to have been DB Cooper, and there are others that adamantly don't want their family member to have been DB Cooperative, both, which entails a measure of emotion and a lack of objectivity to some degree. I have no problem with that. I'm not related, as far as I know, to D.B. cooper, so I can become perfectly objective about it. But so having what I'm. What I'm getting at here is I don't. I think they. They believe 100% everything they've expressed. Richard Floyd McCoy Jr. And I believe his sister's name is Shantay. Shantay or Chantel, but apologize to her because I can't remember which one it is. But I do question, however, Grider's tactics a little bit more stringently just based upon my. My dealing with him and just sort of his reputation in the cooper world. And that's. That's just the way it is. I don't, frankly, I don't give a shit if people like what I have to say about or not. That's just the truth, you know? You know, I'm not. Like I said, I don't have time to waste them. I'm not going to bullshit people on that. That's just reality. Very controversial figure. Yeah. And there you go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Do you have any tips for our listeners on how they can assess, I guess, stories about D.B. cooper and sort of these fabulous new leads that as they come up? Because, I mean, we've seen that happen in a lot of different cases, you know. You know, every other year it seems like they're solving the Zodiac murders. And it's like, I think people understandably see a headline and think, whoa, okay, wow. How can we all better assess these going forward? So maybe we don't get our hopes up when it's a nothing burger.

[Eric Ulis]

It's a little tough. It is very tough because in the case of D.B. cooper, and I'll speak to that, because I know more about that than Zodiac, for example. I mean, I know the people who are trustworthy and those who are not trustworthy. And so, you know, I'm a person who speaks truth to the case and is primarily focused on the evidence and the story that the evidence tells. I say that the evidence, you know, in the case of D.B. cooper's tie, I say the tie doesn't lie. The tie doesn't lie, the evidence from the tie doesn't lie, and the evidence doesn't have an agenda. It doesn't care who your favorite suspect is. The evidence is what the evidence is, and the evidence speaks to the truth. So that's where I live. I focus on that. There are some other people, a guy named Tom K. Who's a well known scientist who's really done a lot of work utilizing that evidence. You know, he's the same kind of guy, he's the same sort of way when he talks about the evidence and stuff that's been procured from the tie, which he has really spearheaded in a lot of ways. You know, you can trust what he says. Related to that, a parachute expert who has been really pretty instrumental in this recent, you know, uproll related, parachute guy named Mark Meltzer. Very, very reputable, honest man, parachute expert, attorney. You can take what he says to the bank. I mean, these are the kind of people you want to listen to, the people you want to avoid are the people who are you or the people that, that are suspect peddlers that they're trying to push a suspect. They've got, you know, they're, for whatever reason. And yeah, I've got my kind of favorite guy, Vince Peterson. But I'll be the first person to say, I don't know if he was DB Cooper or not, but what I am willing to do is I am willing to. And this is this is hot off the press. I'll just tell you this right now. In fact, I was communicating with the. With an FBI agent that I know today about this. I have an envelope, a still sealed envelope from 1961 that Mr. Peterson, Vince Peterson, sent to his wife. When the wife received the envelope, she tore down the edge of the envelope and removed the letter. The envelope is still sealed. The stamp is still on the envelope. I have. I received that envelope from their daughter. That envelope would be a terrific piece of evidence to sequence Vince Peterson's DNA. I have tried at length, as you know, to get access to DB Cooper's tie and to try to get my hands on the D. Cooper did, the DNA profile that they have or whatever they're working with. But I've been rebuffed at every turn. So what I have done recently, as recent as today, is I have formally written a letter to this FBI agent, and I'm trying to get the FBI to take the envelope and for the FBI to actually test the DNA on the envelope and compare with whatever they have on their CODIS system there. See if there's any kind of matching. Leave me out of it. But let them do it. And I hope they take it seriously. I hope they do it. And whatever the results are, or whatever the results are, if they actually do it and they say Vince Peterson, the DNA doesn't match at all. Fair enough. Doesn't match at all. It's time to move on. We can check that guy off. The problem is there are a few suspect peddlers out there who, I mean, literally, Jesus Christ himself could come down and say, you got the wrong guy. And they're going to argue with Jesus Christ himself. And those are the kind of people you want to avoid. So there you go.

[Dan Greider]

What you're telling us is very exciting, and it does bring up something about how you could tell if a person is, to be blunt, a crank or not.

[Anya Cain]

Because when you put forward a theory, it's important.

[Dan Greider]

If the theory is falsifiable, you have to be able to imagine evidence that would disprove it. And you've offered your theories about Mr. Vince Peterson, and you're also saying, here's evidence that could disprove it if this DNA doesn't match. And that's. That's very, very exciting at the end of the day.

[Eric Ulis]

I've said this many times before. I want to know who the real guy was. I'm not interested in the fake DB Cooper. You know, I mean, I want to know who the real guy was. And so that's kind of like my guiding principle, who was the real guy? And let's see if we can prove it. And to the degree that people have that as a guiding principle in some manner, you know, then I think it's easy to, to stay somewhat grounded. Sure, you're going to be disappointed at times when maybe somebody, you get really excited about you. It doesn't quite pan out. But that's okay. That's fine. I mean, you know, Teddy Roosevelt's the man in the arena, quote about, you know, you know, basically get. Getting in the ring and dusting yourself off when you don't succeed and basically going at it again, you know, you know, being resilient and persist in that kind of thing. I think that's a laudable. Those are laudable traits. It's very American, as a matter of fact, so. And it's American crime. So there we go. But that's it. I mean, that's just how I operate as far as this goes. I know there are others. I'm not the only one, but there are also a lot of charlatans. You know, there are others, others who are much more agenda driven and, and I know it's hard to delineate between the two if you're, if you're on the outside, it really is. But honestly, a little bit of prodding around on the Internet and YouTube or whatever, you could probably pretty quickly ascertain whether or not somebody's full of hot air or not. And honestly, this parachute just doesn't hold air.

[Anya Cain]

Love that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, I do wish the media would do a better job betting, though. That is their jobs. And it feels like the ball was dropped here. And I'm just going to say one thing. When you, when you cross off a name, that's more data you've, You've crossed up and that's, that's an accomplishment in and of itself. So we commend your approach. And I guess I just have a dumb question. Do we have, do we have a sense if the FBI does have DNA, of, of DB Cooper, like could, would like, or that they could potentially get it eventually?

[Eric Ulis]

This is what I know, and this is also what I suspect. In 2001, the FBI did test the tie for DNA and did come up with some partial DNA profiles or a partial DNA profile. This is again, using 2001 technology, which is light years behind what we have today. Two and a half decades later, they had a DNA initiative. In 2004, I believe there were eight gentlemen that they tried to affect a comparison and apparently none of them really went anywhere. They couldn't really affect a comparison. They couldn't wholly eliminate anybody from it just because they weren't 100% sure that the DNA they were working with was actually D.B. cooper's. And again, they had limited technology. Now, I filed a lawsuit in. It must have been 2023, I think was March of 2023. I filed the lawsuit asking to get access to DB Cooper's clip on tie with the DNA specialist for the purpose of swabbing a heretofore undiscovered part of the clip on tie that I believe may contain a complete DB Cooper DNA profile that is also not contaminated in the form of a spindle. There was a little adjustable spindle incorporated into the tie knot that apparently everyone had overlooked. And so I took it to court and I was unsuccessful. I do believe, based upon a number of things, that part of the reason I was unsuccessful and that the FBI pushed back and didn't give me and a DNA specialist access for the purposes of testing was I believe, that they ultimately tested it themselves. And I do believe they came away with a, a DNA profile that was much better than what they had previously. Now, there are a few reasons I say that, and one of the reasons I say that is because they did Indeed later in 2023, approach Richard Floyd McCoy Jr. And ask for his DNA, that presumably they wouldn't have asked for his DNA for comparative purposes if they didn't have anything new to work with. Because by 20, by 2020, the FBI and those in the FBI lab, and I've talked with FBI agents about this, basically felt like whatever they had from procured in 2001, and in terms of a partial profile was, was basically a joke. It was completely unusable. They just, they had, there were just too many questions related to it. So obviously something changed by 2023 to when they got the DNA from Richard Floyd McCoy Jr. So I do believe they do have an updated profile and I do believe it's on the CODIS system. I did file another Freedom of Information act earlier this year regarding the 2001 DNA profile in the 2023 DNA profile saying, hey, you know, if you're not going to give me access to the tie, at least give me the profile, give me the numbers, whatever it is. And they wrote back and they rejected my request, of course, because they said that information is all on codis and CODIS is specifically exempt from foia. So. So that was good to establish as far as that's concerned there. So I do believe that the FBI has some usable DNA and may even be very usable, maybe, you know, maybe a close to a solid, 100% solid profile. So that's exciting. That's exciting. But it only is exciting. It only helps us if they're willing to leverage that, if they're willing to tap into it, if they're willing to use it, if they won't give me access to the tie or whatever, or give me the DNA profile and at the same time take the profile themselves and lock it in CODIS and are unwilling to tap into that resource, they're in effect, covering up DB Cooper. They're making it impossible for anybody to ascertain whether somebody could have been DB Cooper or not. They're, in effect, of protecting the guy at that point, which doesn't seem quite right. So, I mean, I realize they can't entertain every single request to make a DNA comparison or what have you. I get that. But I think, you know, arguably, if you look at what I'm coming to the table with in the. In the terms of the scientific evidence pointing in the direction of Vince Peterson or somebody close to him, you know, we're dealing with something that's on a little different level here. You know, we're not talking about divining devices or rods or things of this nature. This is hard science. So I think it does behoove them to actually take this envelope, which may well be the silver bullet, and test it and let's see if there's a. There's a match or not.

[Anya Cain]

We want to thank Eric for taking time from his holiday weekend to speak with us. You can follow him and his [e-mail] that's E R I C U L I S.com thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Kevin Greenlee]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at wwpatreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Anya Cain]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can Join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So it's the holiday season right now and you might be looking for things to gift both your loved ones and perhaps yourself for some self care. And one thing we'd like you to keep in mind is we have a wonderful sponsor called Via Hemp. This is a company that makes it possible for us to do our show. They support us and so supporting them also supports us. And they've got some really cool deals for Murder Sheet listeners who are interested. If you're 21 and older, you can go to viahemp.com that's v I a h e m p.com and you can get 15% off their products which are these amazing premium award winning THC and THC free gummies. They've also got things like topicals, drops, vapes. Each one of them is crafted with a specific mood or effect in mind.

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[Dan Greider]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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