The National Supermarkets Massacre

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "The National Supermarkets Massacre"

Original Air Date: July 7, 2026
Hosts: Áine Cain & Kevin Greenlee
Featured Guest: Bob Ciphers, journalist and author

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Episode Overview

This episode of "Murder Sheet" centers on the notorious 1987 National Supermarkets Massacre in St. Louis, Missouri. Hosts Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee conduct an in-depth interview with journalist and author Bob Ciphers, whose latest book, 25 Frozen 1 Thawed: Murder and Mayhem in the Midwest, revisits the mass shooting, its aftermath, and the surprising bonds forged between survivors, investigators, and storytellers. The discussion covers the harrowing facts of the crime, the investigation's twists, wrongful arrests, the eventual breakthrough, and the human stories that endured.

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Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. The National Supermarkets Massacre: The Horrific Crime

• Setting: National Supermarket, Natural Bridge Road, St. Louis, on September 4, 1987 (Labor Day weekend).
• Crime Details:
  • After closing, two armed men forced seven employees to the ground and shot them in the head execution-style, twice each (using the security guard’s gun after running out of ammunition).
  • Five victims were killed: Michael Beam (34), Rose Brown (49), David Spahn (27, security guard), Kenneth Bass (27), and Michael Marr (16).
  • The robbers stole $7,534.20, the security guard's gun, and bus passes.
  • Remarkably, two employees survived: Richard Fortson (hid undetected) and Harold Meyer, who survived two gunshots to the head and became a crucial eyewitness.
  • The brutality and randomness of the act shocked St. Louis, affecting the city’s psyche.
  • “To have an entire grocery store's worth of managers laying on a floor with bullets in their head, for [detective] Joe Burgoon to walk into that scene in the middle of the night, that was as bad as it gets.” — Bob Ciphers (08:48)

Timestamps:

• Narrative introduction: 01:01 – 04:32
• Bob Ciphers recounts the crime and immediate aftermath: 05:48 – 09:51

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2. The Investigation: False Starts, Flaws, and Dogged Persistence

• Initial Investigation and Arrests:

  • Police arrested two brothers (19 and 23), their cousin (27), and a 36-year-old parolee, based on confessions later alleged to be coerced.
  • Harold Meyer, surviving victim and eyewitness, told police immediately: "That's not them. That's not them." — Bob Ciphers (15:15)
  • Meyer’s ability to identify the perpetrators by their voices (from interrogation tapes), rather than faces, was key.
  • Due to Meyer’s insistence, charges were dropped—effectively saving four wrongfully accused men from death penalty prosecutions.
  • This misstep led to public uproar and embarrassment for the police, who returned to square one.

• Meyer’s 911 Call Fiasco:

  • Despite being grievously injured, Meyer called 911 but couldn’t be understood; the operator hung up on him. He then called his wife to make the emergency call, but police went to the wrong store location, further delaying help.
  • “He [Harold] can laugh about it now, but at the time… you can't even get the 911 people to have a conversation with you on the phone, that was a flaw.” — Bob Ciphers (09:59)

Timestamps:

• Initial false arrests & Harold Meyer’s intervention: 14:33 – 19:44
• 911 call mistakes: 09:59 – 14:33

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3. The Breakthrough: Classic Detective Work

• Case Goes Cold:

  • Months of fruitless investigation, shaken community, changes in store security and public behaviors.
  • Detective Joe Burgoon’s determined efforts and use of personal contacts and persistent subpoenaing.

• Lucky Break:

  • Routine traffic stop turned up a gun in the car—traced back to the slain security guard (David Spahn).
  • Subsequent connections led them to a family member, Donnie Blankenship; at his home, police found a bus pass with a number matching one stolen from the supermarket that was only valid during the week of the crime.

• Culprits Identified:

  • Donnie Blankenship and Marvin Jennings (25 and 27 years old at the time) were linked through physical evidence and voice comparison by Meyer.
  • Exemplary “grunt” police work and a measure of luck finally solved the crime.
  • “You want to talk about dumb criminals? ...they took a bus pass that was good for one week, one week only in September, six months earlier.... He takes the bus pass, goes back out to his car, calls in and says, hey, what was the number on that National Supermarket stolen bus pass...? Joe's standing there looking at the same bus pass. He cannot believe it.” — Bob Ciphers (21:00)

Timestamps:

• The cold case and eventual breakthrough: 19:44 – 24:56

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4. Justice and Aftermath

• Trials and Sentences:

  • Marvin Jennings: Convicted of five counts of first-degree murder and sentenced to life without parole.
  • Donnie Blankenship: Convicted of five counts of second-degree murder, eligible for parole after 100 years. Both remain incarcerated.
  • Appeals were rejected for both.
  • “Blankenship was convicted of five counts of second degree murder…he also got life imprisonment and would only be eligible for parole after serving 100 years…he’s still incarcerated too.” — Anya Cain (25:16)

• Impact on St. Louis:

  • The case changed patterns for grocery stores and the community at large—heightened security, fear, and widespread demand for resolution.

Timestamps:

• Trials and outcomes: 24:56 – 25:37

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5. Bonds Through Tragedy: Survivors, Detectives, and Storytellers

• Unlikely Friendships:

  • Deep emotional bonds formed between Harold Meyer (survivor), Joe Burgoon (detective), and Bob Ciphers (journalist/author)—relationships built on trust, empathy, and shared trauma.

  • It took years for Ciphers to gain Meyer's trust for an in-depth interview; their eventual meeting was facilitated by Burgoon.

  • “I’ve cried with these people and as I keep in touch with them now…there’s a little bit of a bond there. It isn’t like I’m best friends for life with these people, but I know these people now…they text me now and I keep in touch with people…and it’s like a whole new…group of people that I’m dealing with here.” — Bob Ciphers (40:10)

• Purpose of True Crime Reporting:

  • Ciphers emphasizes that his work’s true value lies in bringing attention to cold cases and possibly helping to solve them, not for money or recognition:

  • “If we did, it would be the greatest thing I ever did in my life...imagine if somebody listening to this…knows about one of these things and calls with the lead that solves the case.” — Bob Ciphers (25:37)

  • Áine Cain and others reflect on how true crime, done right, can crowdsource information and keep hope alive for cold and obscure cases.

  • “You never know who might be have been a neighbor at the time who heard something...now’s the time for us to really...crowdsource some of this information. And you know, if anyone has anything, send us an email.” — Host (37:09)

Timestamps:

• Bonds, outreach, and meaning: 25:37 – 32:57, 37:52 – 43:26

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Notable Quotes

• “Harold Meyer literally saved four people’s lives as the police had the wrong guys. And it turned out that Harold Meyer was correct.” — Bob Ciphers (18:14)
• “The city was an uproar...businesses were scared, shoppers were scared... Nothing was happening on the investigation, and people were just. Couldn't believe it, couldn't believe how bad guys could walk in and kill everybody and there's no leads, nothing.” — Bob Ciphers (13:05)
• “...dedication of law enforcement, the survival of a man…anybody who reads that story in that book and is not motivated by the human spirit, the dedication of law enforcement, the survival of the man…” — Bob Ciphers (39:17)
• “This story is a reminder that evil is out there. Unfortunately, we share a world with evildoers who will kill nearly an entire crew of a grocery store just for some money. But this story is also a reminder that in the aftermath of a heinous tragedy, we can find those trying to seek justice and those trying to seek the truth. And maybe when some of those people find each other, there’s some healing in that.” — Anya Cain (43:26)

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Timeline & Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |----------------|----------------------------------------------| | 01:01–04:32 | Introduction & case outline | | 05:48–09:51 | Details of the massacre | | 09:59–14:33 | Harold Meyer’s survival & 911 call | | 14:33–19:44 | False arrests, Meyer’s intervention | | 19:44–24:56 | Break in the case, evidence, real suspects | | 24:56–25:37 | Trials and justice | | 25:37–32:57 | Writing process, reporting on cold cases | | 37:52–43:26 | Reflections, bonds, impact |

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Tone & Approach

The hosts maintain a measured, empathetic, and journalistic tone, focused on facts, justice, and the real human impact behind sensational headlines. Bob Ciphers brings in a reflective, sometimes wry tone, candid about flaws in the system and the burdens borne by survivors and investigators alike, always underlining hope, healing, and the power of persistence.

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Further Information

• Bob Ciphers’ book, 25 Frozen 1 Thawed: Murder and Mayhem in the Midwest is available where books are sold, including Amazon and Barnes & Noble.
• Listeners with information on unsolved cases are encouraged to email murdersheetmail.com.
• Upcoming works by Ciphers will cover California and Las Vegas cold cases.

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Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

I'm Anya and we're going to talk about an infamous St. Louis mass shooting and the bonds that can form after tragedy with journalist and author Bob Ciphers.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder and violence.

[Anya Cain]

Grocery stores and supermarkets are sort of the great unifier. No matter who we are, no matter how we're living, no matter what our income level or background, we all have to eat. That means most of us end up shopping at grocery stores and supermarkets at

[Kevin Greenlee]

some point in the late 1980s. One notable retail chain in both St. Louis, Missouri and New Orleans, Louisiana was National Supermarkets. If you're from around there, maybe you even remember them well.

[Anya Cain]

One of those supermarkets was the site of a horrific tragedy on the night of September 4, 1987. Just after closing, two gunmen snuck into the National Supermarket on Natural Bridge Road in the city of St. Louis.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They held the employees at gunpoint. They beat some of them when they had trouble opening the Safe.

[Anya Cain]

They stole $7,534.20 from the safe, the security guard's gun and several bus passes, as well as five lives.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They gunned down the crew at the store to eliminate witnesses.

[Anya Cain]

The victims were 34 year old Michael Beam, 49 year old Rose Brown, 27 year old David Spahn, 27 year old Kenneth Bass and 16 year old Michael Marr. All were forced to the ground and then shot in the head multiple times, execution style.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But little did the killers know one of their victims did not die at least not immediately. 30 year old store manager Harold Meyer held on. He was shot in the head, just

[Anya Cain]

like the others lying on the cold floor of that supermarket. He wasn't sure if he was going to make it, but he wanted to hold on, to survive, to ensure justice was done. To see his family again.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Seasoned journalist Bob Ciphers recently covered this heinous case in a segment of a great book, 25 frozen one thought murder and Mayhem in the Midwest.

[Anya Cain]

In this interview, Bob will share with us all the twists and turns of this case. He'll also get into what it was like to actually write this book. This crime shocked St. Louis, but it wasn't an easy case to solve either. Bob will get into where the case stands today, what happened to the people involved and the bonds he's formed with those who lived this case. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is

[Anya Cain]

the National Supermarkets Massacre.

[Bob Ciphers]

It.

[Anya Cain]

Bob Ciphers is no stranger to the Murder Sheet, of course. He previously came to talk with us about his book Dead End Inside the hunt for the i70 killer, which saw him in bed with the task force dedicated to finding a multi state serial killer. He also previously came on to discuss his latest book, 25 Frozen 1 Thawed which also covered the story of precious Hope, an unidentified child who was murdered in St. Louis. Cyvers is an award winning journalist who worked for KMOV TV in St. Louis for years.

[Kevin Greenlee]

In his new book, he gets into 25 of the most infamous Midwestern crimes he's ever encountered along with one standout case the police ultimately cracked and we are thrilled to have him back.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And now I think we'd like to go into the thawed case of 25 frozen and one thaw. This one is a standout because of course you're writing about all of these terrible, terrible cold cases and it's like, you know, it's so frustrating because you want to figure out what happened to these people, but this is the case where we actually get that catharsis at the end of the book. And I was wondering, I guess to start off with, can you tell me about when this happened and sort of how you came to report on this?

[Bob Ciphers]

Sure. So the case was from back in. It was Labor Day weekend in I believe, 1987. It was the National Supermarket Store, which was a chain of stores in the St. Louis area. And on Friday night of Labor Day weekend, the store closes at 10 o' clock and everybody goes home. Seven store workers would stick around for an hour that was routine on closing night to just clean up and get the place ready to be open first thing in the morning. So the store closes and they begin their cleaning process and get the cash out of the till and whatever, stock the shelves, sweep the floors. And a couple of bad guys get in and they line up all seven people in the store and make them lay down on the floor. And the two bad guys then pull out their guns and. And start shooting everybody in the back of the head. Men, women, young workers, store managers, and killing everybody. And after they went and shot everybody in the back of the head once, they went and grabbed the gun of the security guard. One of the guys they shot and killed, because he's now dead, got his gun out and went and sprayed everybody again a second time. I mean, their first mistake was they didn't have enough bullets in their own gun. Now they had to steal the security guard's gun, but they shot everybody in the head twice and left them all for dead. Into that scene later walked Joe Burgoon. And I found out about the story again. I was not in there at the time as I got to know Joe and met Joe and talked about, you know, his famous stories and Precious Hope and onto this one and some others in the book. And hearing this story, Joe made it clear that this was the worst thing he ever encountered. To have a walk in there and see all those bodies on the floor and the blood, and that was the worst story he ever covered. Precious Hope may have been the most heartbreaking, but the National Supermarket Store was the biggest story and the worst story. And his investigation of that and the police work on that and the, the mania in the city of St. Louis on that to salt to get this thing solved. And again, we see this now in the news, these mass shootings. And as horrific as they are, I hate to say it, but we've almost become kind of numb to it. It's out there for a day and then we go to something else. It's like, do we think we've seen our last school shooting? No, we know we haven't. There's going to be 50 more over the course of time. And there's going to, you know, you went through what you had in Las Vegas at the, at the Mandalay Bay or the Bellagio Hotel where the gunman got on the 30th floor and opened fire. On those concert people and just started spraying bullets. I mean, these are. These are unimaginable, horrific scenes. And I'm going back to 1987 now when this happened 40 years ago almost, and imagine what this must have been like again, maybe pre cno, cnn, satellite trucks. But this must have been, as Joe says, something they'd never seen before, you know? You know, you know, Joe's covered many homicides where there's multiple victims of drug deal over drug deal gone bad. But to have an entire grocery store's worth of managers laying on a floor with bullets in their head, for him to walk into that scene in the middle of the night, that was as

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

bad as it gets, I. I imagine. I mean, it's horrifying to read about. I used to cover retail for Business Insider, and, you know, the idea that such carnage could occur at a grocery store, which is, you know, like a. Like a place where people go. Go to buy their food. I mean, it's just like a part of the community. I always like to say the names of the dead on the show. And so that was in this case, I believe, Rose Brown, Michael Beam, looks like Kenneth Bass, Michael Marr, and then David Spahn.

[Bob Ciphers]

David was the security guard.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

These are all just people doing their jobs, closing up for the day.

[Anya Cain]

But there were two survivors, right?

[Bob Ciphers]

Yep. Well, one of the survivors was not lined up to be shot. He was hiding. He was elsewhere in the store. They never found him. Richard Fortson. But the key man in this case was a man named Harold Meyer. He was the manager of the store. He also got shot twice in the head. But incredibly, he survived both shootings. And at the beginning of that chapter, Harold's been shot, and he crawls to the phone. He sees a phone. He can barely move. He doesn't know if the bad guys are still in the store. And he picks up the phone and calls the 911 operator, and I'll let you tell that story. I mean, she. Harold can laugh about it now, but at the time when you. When you've been shot twice in the head and everybody's dead, and you can't even get the 911 people to have a conversation with you on the phone, that was a flaw. When they finally, you know, after the 911 operator told Harold he needed to speak up louder, that she couldn't hear him, and, like, I. I can't speak up. They may be in the building. And. And finally she says, I'm sorry, sir, I can't understand you. I have to go. And she Hangs up on him. Oh, my goodness gracious. Harold didn't know what to do. So he calls his wife and he says, Sweetheart, can you call 91 1? Can you tell him to send ambulances? We've all been shot. And he's telling her, I don't think I'm going to make it. I love you. Tell them to get to the National Store on the road we're on as soon as possible. Well, the wife calls 91 1. And as I mentioned, there were a chain of national supermarket stores, and there were two of them on this natural bridge road. And the police went to the wrong one. That store was quiet, no lights on, and because the 911 operator. Now, this was her second phone call that she thought was a prank about the shooting at the. They just dropped it. And meanwhile, everybody's laying there dying. And had they got there earlier, they might have saved some lives because he was the chief homicide investigator. As soon as somebody got there and they picked up the phone and said, this is a homicide. Get homicide out there. Joe Burgoon's beeper went off. You know, back in the day, Anya, we had these things called beepers on our. We wear on our chest. There were no cell phones. And Joe slept with his beeper. And when that beeper went off, he jumped in that old Plymouth car. So it was his case, obviously, as the top guy. As soon as he walked in, Harold Meyer is laying there on the floor dying when Joe Burgoon busted through the front door. And, you know, Joe knew that Harold was his eyewitness, but he also knew Harold might be dying. And Joe said they were rushing Harold to the hospital. Harold could barely speak. And Joe says, you get through this, Let me do my job here, and I'll be there to see you in a couple hours. And at that point, Joe Burgoon did his work at the homicide scene and then pretty much moved into Barnes Hospital and lived with Harold Meyer. And the two of them pieced this together. But even the heartbreak or the fiasco of that shooting, as bad as and horrific as it was, the nuts and bolts of that story, of that chapter is what happened then afterwards between Harold Meyer and Joe Burgoon to get this thing solved. Because the city was an uproar. I talked to some photographers who were working at that time at my TV station. Businesses were scared, shoppers were scared. Grocery stores were changing hours, Security guards were on. The town changed. You know, they adjusted. Nothing was happening on the investigation, and people were just. Couldn't believe it, couldn't Believe how bad guys could walk in and kill everybody and there's no leads, nothing. But, you know, the city was an uproar. And then they, when they finally, finally arrested four guys and started going forward with murder one and death penalty, the city was relieved.

[Anya Cain]

The suspects were two young brothers, a 19 year old and a 23 year old, as well as their 27 year old cousin and a 36 year old convicted robber on parole. The 23 year old and 27 year old later accused police of beating confessions out of them. We are not naming these men on purpose for reasons that will become very obvious later in this interview, because there was a big problem with all of this.

[Bob Ciphers]

Harold Meyer told them it was the wrong guys.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I want to, I want to, I want to go over that because you mentioned, you know, Burgoon basically forms a bond with Harold the Survivor, with Mr. Meyer. And what kind of clues was Meyer able to give him as far as piecing together what happened and trying to figure out who did this?

[Bob Ciphers]

Well, I don't think Harold was certain who did it, but he knew who didn't. And when he saw on TV the photographs of the four people they'd arrested and charged with murder, he immediately told Joe, Joe, that's not them. That's not them.

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[Bob Ciphers]

And now Joe had a problem on his hands because he had to go to his bosses who had to go to the prosecuting attorney and say, we think he got the wrong guy. And they're, they're telling Joe, no, we got the guys, we got the guys. And Joe's saying, well, don't you think the person who got shot who's still alive would know if you've got the guys or not? The one eyewitness to this, and my eyewitness says these are not the guys. You cannot go forward on murder one and death penalty when my eye, the one person alive is saying it's the wrong guys. Harold Meyer literally saved four people's lives as the police had the wrong guys. And it turned out that Harold Meyer was correct. Harold made it clear that it wasn't so much the faces he could recall as it was the voices. And they had audio of these people. The police interrogation. They went and showed Harold the interrogation of these people. And Harold said, it's not them. It's not the voice. It is not definitely not them. He was 100% certain. And so police had no choice but to embarrassingly Call a news conference, send the people out of jail, announce the case had been dropped, and now what do you think the reaction of the city was? Oh, boy. And now it became up to Joe Burgoon. Back to square one. Months have gone by on the investigation. Now what?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Tell us about how they ended up narrowing in on Marvin Jennings and Donnie Blankenship.

[Bob Ciphers]

Yeah, the amazing thing there was just the randomness of what it takes to track things down, or the luck, if you will. Police kept looking and looking and waiting and stopping people and talking in the community. And literally, this thing went cold. And the leaves were changing. The city was not right. And it was just frustrating on everybody's part. And finally, though, Joe Burgoon, who'd made, like I said, his life of contacts and making sources, he's going through his Rolodex, if you will. Those old things we used to have before cell phones, when we had beepers, we had Rolodexes. And he's getting subpoenas for every person involved in every crime he could ever come across.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Then the most routine thing in the world happened, something that happens many times over in St. Louis or any given city. But this minor decision by a police officer ultimately helped thaw this frigid case.

[Bob Ciphers]

Police randomly stop a car for speeding on a road, and they find in the car there's a gun in the car. And the gun is not traced to the owner. The owner says it's not his. He's giving it to his. By his nephew or something. And police start putting two and two and two together. And they can't track anything. They have no idea this is connected to the case. It's just a routine. Now there's a gun in the car. And then they find out as they test the gun, it was the gun of Spawn, the security guard. And now they had their first lead as. As months went by. And so now they're looking at this gun, they're looking at this family who's driving the car. Joe Burgoon is getting subpoenas for every person in the world that this man is. This family's related to. He's not going to leave any stone unturned. And finally, he gets a subpoena for one of the family members named a man named Donnie Blankenship. And Joe goes to the home of Donnie Blankenship. The bad guy stole, like, I think, $7,000 that night. But you want to talk about dumb criminals? Anya, besides the $7,000, they took one more thing. Keep in mind, this was Labor Day weekend, and now we're way months past that, they took one more thing besides the $7,000. They took a bus pass that was good for one week, one week only in September, six months earlier, that bus pass was worth $5. Free bus rides for a week. And each bus pass back then had a number on it, a code of what, you know, 80075 or whatever. So Joe Burgoon goes into this house with a subpoena, and Donnie Blankenship is not there, but he sees a desk, and on the desk there's a bus pass. Well, Joe thinks, well, really, what are the chances? He takes the bus pass, goes back out to his car, calls in and says, hey, what was the number on that National Supermarket? Stolen bus pass from, you know, six months ago. 87011, whatever. Joe's standing there looking at the same bus pass. He cannot believe it. He just cannot believe it. And you fast forward and that was it. The bus pass was being held by the killer. And sure enough, as soon as they got his voice audio and played it for Harold Meyer, that's the guy. And case solved. And only because Harold Meyer stood strong and only because Joe Burgoon tracked down every lead, and only because the police got lucky and stopped a car from speeding that wasn't in their own jurisdiction. And the guy has a gun in the trunk, and they track down the gun and it's not his, but it was given from somebody else. And now we're going after that family and tracking down every subpoena. You talk about grunt work, police work. These things aren't done in the day, but it solved the biggest homicide ever known in the city of St. Louis.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's incredible. It was incredible police work. And I. I think. I think for me, the story's so interesting too, because it kind of reflects. Sometimes you hear about disasters when it comes to police handling these big cases, but you also see the success stories. And this one, you almost had both because you had all those people who were arrested and they were kind of pushing that forward, overly aggressive, they. But people like Burgoon were able to intervene and say, no, we need to follow the evidence, not just what's convenient and like in the. In this case. Fortunately, the Burgoon side won.

[Anya Cain]

Blankenship and Jennings were 25 and 27 in 1987. They both went to trial. In 1988, Jennings was convicted of five counts of first degree murder and additional charges. The jury recommended that he get life without parole. And that's exactly what he got. His appeal was rejected, as was his writ of habeas corpus.

[Grainger Announcer]

He.

[Anya Cain]

He's still in prison. Blankenship was convicted of five counts of second degree murder as well as additional counts. In 1989, he was acquitted of a few counts as well. He also got life imprisonment and would only be eligible for parole after serving 100 years. His appeal was denied. He's still incarcerated too.

[Bob Ciphers]

And I'm at the point of my life, Anya, where, you know, I've done a lot, like I mentioned, a lot of things. I, I'm not under any false hope that I'm going to solve a case here. I'm really not. But if we did, it would be the greatest thing I ever did in my life. I mean, just imagine if somebody listening this on murder Sheet knows about one of, picks up this book, knows about one of these things and calls with the lead that solves the case. What that would mean for you and Kevin, what that would mean for me, what that would mean for the police, the families. That's why I do this. It's certainly not for the money, as you've alluded to. It's certainly not for any recognition that I don't need at my age. It's kind of what's sitting out there is the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow for me.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I hear you. And I think this book really captures the passion that you have for cold cases and for trying to further along these stories. And I think that's wonderful and absolutely commendable and what true crime should be. And all of you better buy his book, Murder Sheep. People read it. If you know about any of this stuff or if you have relatives who were living in some of these areas back in the day when this stuff happened. You know, the best thing we can do for some of these cold cases that haven't gotten a ton of national media attention is we can just go back to people we know who might know something and ask them who they know and spread it around, get people talking.

[Anya Cain]

What do you remember about this?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Who might know? And if we can do that, we could actually at least make an attempt to get some information out there. I think that that is the best thing that true crime can do for these cases that are not necessarily the things that we hear about on the news all the time. You know, this book, this second book that you wrote, your first book on the i70 case, was amazing. You basically embedded with a multi state task force that's dedicated to trying to solve a serial killer case. It was fascinating. And then this one is a collection of these fascinating different cases that are just incredible, many of which I had not heard of before. And I really enjoyed kind of getting to know those. How. How did you go about writing this book? How did this book come to be? And then what was your process as far as collecting some of these cases?

[Bob Ciphers]

Sure. Well, after I wrote the first book, which I really had, you know, when I retired and I came here to chase grandchildren around and play bad golf, which I'm really getting good at, I had time on my hands. One thing I knew, I did not want to watch any more local television news. I'd had enough of that my whole life. I don't think the plumber goes home and wants to work on the toilet. So I had time on my hands, and all I could do is write. So I thought, I'll write, you know, and the only thing on my bucket list was I wanted to go to the Holy Land. I'm devout in my faith, and I wrote a book about that experience. And there's things in the Bible that, you know, kind of piqued my interest, you know, And I wrote a couple of books about biblical feelings. And so I. I was writing, but I. Those books weren't going to sell. I really didn't care. They're in libraries around the world. I'm thrilled. And then finally, the police from the 70 serial killer task force tracked me down and said, you're writing books? And I said, well, religious books. Well, why don't you write our book on the i70 killer? Our task force is done. It'll be the last thing ever out there standing. And who knows, you know, somebody might read something and pick it up. And I thought, well, okay, I guess I can try. And so I did. But now I had to find a publisher. You know what's funny about this? The difficulty there. And you guys went through this, and I would send it. You go online and there's a form to fill out. Well, how old are you? Well, I'm 66 years old. They're not looking for me. What's your social media presence? Like I said, I'm 66 years old. Have you ever written a book before? No, they're not looking for me. I was the last guy in the world they're looking for.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Let me just say something, though. The fact that I actually cite your experience sometimes, and I'm so glad you were ultimately able to find a great publisher and publish, but the fact that you, an experienced journalist who knows all these cases like the back of your hand, who embedded with some of these detectives, the Fact that you had a hard time selling a book, a crime nonfiction book, means that our publishing system is broken to me.

[Bob Ciphers]

So eventually I get. I get offers back from some of these places that say, well, look, Bob, I'm a 27 year old recent graduate, and I do writing classes, and if you'll give me $500, I'll represent you. And I'm thinking, you know what? I just spent 35 years editing television copy for a major market television station. You'll never get the job I just held for 35 years. I'm not going to pay you when I'm already a professional editor. But finally, Genius took me on. Genius Publishing took me on. They liked the theory. They said, give it a crack. I sent in the manuscript. I had zero expectations. I don't couldn't tell you if it was good, bad, better than what they usually get. They thought it was okay. And I said, is there any expectation here for this book? And they were small. They were a small publishing thing. And they said, well, you know, most books, if we sell 500 in the course of a lifetime, you know, we kind of save. If you sell 500 books in the course of the next, it sold over a thousand the first year. So they were happy. It wasn't like we didn't make any New York Times bestseller list, but for them, it was a success. And so they came back and said, you know, what else have you got? And it's like, oh, I don't know. So I started thinking about it and I said, well, you know, in 35 years, I covered a lot of cases that were cold cases. Maybe I'll just put the collection together. And I went back over everything I'd written, my archives, and. But even then, I didn't have the thawed case set up to go. I knew I needed that conclusion. I needed Joe Burgoon on that thawed case. And I kept that bug in the ear till the phone call for lunch came along. And I called Genius and I said, I can write you a book.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Nice. That's awesome.

[Bob Ciphers]

I can take you behind the scenes with the National Supermarket.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Did you and Burgoon like, beyond that, you know, dinner or that lunch that you had with him and Harold, did you guys just, like, sit down and talk about some of these old cases?

[Bob Ciphers]

Over the course of. Many times, yeah. When I was still working at Channel 4, Joe, after working for the city of St. Louis for all those years, hit mandatory retirement age, which was a shame for the city of St. Louis, because Joe then picked up his bags in St. Louis County, a different jurisdiction, said, joe, you're no longer with the city. Can you please come to the county? Because we have unsolved homicide cases. And he went out there and did a handful of cases there. And in the book, a lot of some of these cases are from the city, some of the cases are from the county, and a lot of them, I don't know how many, but a lot of them are collections from Joe Burgoon, so. Well, now Genius wants to know what else I've got.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So you got like, conscripted by the i70 detectives, and now Genius is just like, keep going. I mean, I'm glad because you're great at it. And I would read up a hundred of these books. So I hope you any. Any hints about what might be next for you.

[Bob Ciphers]

I have a book coming out in March and a book coming out in May, and I'm working on two or three more down the line. So the wife says I should watch Netflix with her, but I'm not big on the tv, so she watches the Netflix and I'm sitting next to her writing on books. And then I'll tell her to pause the show because I've got some incredible horrific story to tell her about this insane murderer that's just hard to understand. You won't believe this story. And it's a strange world up here.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

She's like, can I go back to the Netflix?

[Bob Ciphers]

I want to see Brad and Jen get back together. She says, oh, my.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I think any of any of the murder she. People listening who have a spouse or a partner who is not into true crime will understand that feeling. I. I do want to ask you any hints about what those books are about down the line.

[Bob Ciphers]

So the book in coming out in March, my publishers at Genius Book, Stephen and Leah Booth, are California kids. And they put a bug in my head. Hey, you ever look the California cold cases? So I've dug up for them basically in case the book never sells. Here you go. Here's a handful you're the best of in California. And I will say that's a big state that's got some unbelievable wild characters out there. And those stories are each one of those, like the 25. They're. They're interesting. And then they'll come out in March and in May to go to Vegas. I found that in Nashville when I tried to. I took books down there. If anybody came to our table geographically, that was from the path of the i70 killer. Indianapolis, Indiana, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Texas. They all wanted that book. If Somebody came in my path from New York or Florida or California. They had no interest in the. In the i70 killer. So I left there thinking geography made a really big difference in what sells at the CrimeCon convention. So we're going to Vegas. Why not a Vegas book?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I love it.

[Bob Ciphers]

The Vegas book will come out in March. I'll be standing there with a California book in one hand, right next to Las Vegas, and a Vegas book in the other hand. And, you know, 90% of the people that we saw in Nashville were female. It's the ladies who love the true crime. So I'll be standing there with a book in each hand, and we'll see. I'll have amazing stories, I'll tell you that. I mean, I'll find the best of the best of the best stories of all time in those states. And if you like cold cases and ridiculous, stupid true crime, I'll track them down.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's going to be amazing. Yeah. And we're going to be a CrimeCon too, in Vegas, so we're going to have to hang out.

[Bob Ciphers]

We are.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It'll be fun. It'll be really great. So I'm. I'm very excited, and I can't wait to read what you do next. Where can people get 25 frozen one bodies?

[Bob Ciphers]

Anywhere they get books. I will tell you where you can't get a book, because I was asked at this, At a TV show, I think, in Kansas City. They said, bob, where can we get your book? And I'm starting to say, like, Amazon. And then for some reason, I say, toys R Us. And then I pause as the reporter looks at me and I say, toys R Us. I think they've gone out of business like 10 years ago. And when they were in business, I don't think they were selling serial killer books on the shelves next to the crayons and coloring books. Live tv, but not Toys R Us, but either Amazon or anywhere you get your books. Books. A million Barnes and Noble genius books. You can call Bob and I'll send you a book. Whatever's easier for you.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I love it. If anyone has any trouble, send us an [e-mail] and we'll help you figure out where you can get the book. But I. I will say, you know, especially for our Missouri murder sheep people. Especially for people in the kind of states that border Missouri, this is a. This is a book that I'd love for you to kind of share with people, you know, who, again, might. You never know who might know something. You never know who might be have been a neighbor at the time who heard something that they didn't think was a big deal, but maybe a big deal. So now's the time for us to really kind of, this is where true crime can shine, which is crowdsourcing some of this information. And, you know, if anyone has anything, send us an [e-mail], we'll try to get your information to the right place.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Before we concluded, we asked Bob to reflect on the scope of this case and what it took to bring this story alive in the book.

[Bob Ciphers]

This crime was just beyond the pale. And what was interesting to me about this is I heard this story for the first time, and I'm talking, Joe, boy, I'd like to write about this story. Joe, I'd like to tell this story. And Joe was putting me off. And I said, you know, for me to tell this story, I gotta talk to Harold Meyer. Months went by, years went by, and I wanted to do this story. And Bob, Harold Meyer is a private man. And he's not gonna, you know, the bad guys know he's out there and he's alive. He's not gonna speak. And to make this book possible, I knew I had to have Harold Meyer. His story is what makes this book. So as years went by, I kept in touch with Joe, would see Joe, talked to Joe. Joe calls me one day out of the blue and says I'd moved up here and retired. When are you coming back to town? Let's get together for lunch. And I said, and this wasn't even coming up about Harold Meyer or this story. I said, okay, Joe, let's go to lunch. When do you want to go? And Joe says, how about next Saturday at 3? And I said, okay. And there's a pause on the phone, and Joe says, call and make a reservation. Then he says, make it for three. And I knew, I knew to get to go there that day and meet Harold Meyer, because just like Joe Burgoon, he's tied for first. These two guys. I'll tell you what, anybody who reads that story in that book and is not motivated by the human spirit, the dedication of the law enforcement, the survival of the man.

[Anya Cain]

So that was how Bob finally, after so many years, got to talk to the man who survived the National Supermarket's massacre.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We previously talked about the strong bond that formed between Joe Burgoon and Harold Meyer. Well, that transferred over to Bob as well, as he was the journalist who captured their story. Here's Bob talking about the retired law enforcement investigator he profiled, yeah, we kept

[Bob Ciphers]

in touch as he switched jobs and we still keep in touch now. The dirty rascal called me before I could call him to wish me a merry Christmas. I had a little bit of a hospital situation in the fall and Harold Meyer reached out to me from Florida where he was playing golf, to see how I was doing in my old age. I've got two new friends that seem to be interested in how old Bob's hanging in. You know, I've cried with these people and as I keep in touch with them now, you know, when you, when you, when you got two people hugging and tears are flowing and you try to understand the best you can of what they've gone through for all this time, there's a little bit of a bond there. It isn't like I'm best friends for life with these people, but I know these people. Now, Vicki Webb, who may have been the survivor of the i70 killer, who, you know, she went undercover for 30 years and just hid, wouldn't talk to anybody. And Harold Meyer went undercover and hid and wouldn't talk. And now that I've dealt with both of those people, kind of the same thing of you can trust me and I'm here and we're going to go forward on this together and we're going to tell these stories and maybe we get lucky and maybe we don't. I don't know. But, you know, you go back, go back to the dead end book and traveling the country and meeting all those victims, families that thought they were forgotten and you're trying to do something for them and they know it would take a miracle, but just the fact that you're trying and that they text me now and, and I keep in touch with people and it's, you know, it's like a whole new, I'm not going to say friends, but a whole new group of people that I'm dealing with here. Just like Bob. Thank you for doing this. We thought everybody had forgotten about us and no, no, not forgotten to say that I can pick up the phone and call Vicki Webb today and see how she's doing or Harold Meyer, how you're playing golf in Florida. I enjoy it. I get a kick out of it. And believe it or not, for whatever reason, they seem to like to hear from Bob. So it's a win. Win. This is a new book, the 25 Frozen One Thought and I had my first appearance at a, an author event in Edwardsville, Illinois a couple of months ago and I show up there with a bunch of other authors to meet the public and have the books out. And I pull up my chair and desk to sit down and it's a big day for me. It's the re. It's the launching of my book. And who's there waiting for me? Joe and Harold. I never told them. I'll tell you what, you meet a lot of people in life, you make friends at an older age, and what a what a great day that was. For me,

[Anya Cain]

this story is a reminder that evil is out there. Unfortunately, we share a world with evildoers who will kill nearly an entire crew of a grocery store just for some money. That's how little some people value human life. But this story is also a reminder that in the aftermath of a heinous tragedy, we can find those trying to seek justice and those trying to seek the truth. And maybe when some of those people find each other, there's some healing in that. Thanks so much to Bob Ciphers for talking with us. Check out his book 25 Frozen 1 Murder and Mayhem in the Midwest. We had an awesome time seeing Bob at CrimeCon and we really do encourage everyone to check out his book.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with

[Anya Cain]

other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

we often receive a lot of messages.

[Anya Cain]

Thanks again for listening.

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[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Hey, it's your ceiling vent. So I'm dripping. Could be the rain, could be the upstairs bathroom. Yikes. You could hire the guy your neighbor recommended, but I'm pretty sure that's just his cousin. Do we know if he's licensed, or does he just own a ladder?

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[Bob Ciphers]

Go with thumbtack.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Upload a photo or voice note, and

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[Bob Ciphers]

with the right pro for the job.

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