A (2:37)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

B (2:38)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting Interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet.

A (2:47)

And this is the truth about sex trafficking.

B (2:51)

Sa.

A (3:36)

All right, first of all, I want to say welcome back Lena, who's doing all of our episodes now.

C (3:43)

It's me, guys.

A (3:45)

Well, we're delighted to have you. It's always a wonderful blessing to talk to you and we love you. So we're really excited to have you back. But today we're going to be talking about something a little different than what we talked with you before.

C (3:56)

Yes.

A (3:57)

So, yeah, talked about some of your experiences before. Now we're going to talk about an topic that you're an expert in.

C (4:02)

Yeah, I guess I am an expert now, actually. I travel and educate about it. So, yeah.

A (4:07)

Yes. So this is sex trafficking.

C (4:09)

Yeah.

A (4:10)

And I guess maybe we can start off by. Can you tell us a little bit about sort of how you built up an expertise in this and what you've been doing as far as advocacy?

C (4:20)

Yes, absolutely. So I started dancing in high school my senior year. And it was through dancing, actually, that I ended up working for underneath, like, my club management, where we would get sent to go do, like, these jobs. You know, I had special clients, so we were under the impression that we were doing these, like, corporate things and doing favors for corporate. Human trafficking was not like a. A word really then. The only distinction that we had back then was like, escorting or prostitution. And prostitution back then was like pimps on a corner with a big hat, you know, type of experience. So we never considered it trafficking. We just thought, oh, this is kind of part of the job. But it wasn't until 2017 I started working at a safe house. I had been out of the dancing community for quite a while. And that's when somebody was telling me, you know, I believe you're a survivor of sex trafficking. I said, there's just no way. Like, I'd never had a pimp. I never worked on a street corner. And she explained to me, you know, corporations can be pimps, too. So I went to a training seminar with the Attorney General. And while I was sitting there listening to all of the different things that make classification a prosecutable classification for sex trafficking, it was like this wave of knowledge hitting me, like, wait a minute, the club does this, the club does this. At least the club that I worked at, you know, would hold our IDs, would send us, you know, cars and drivers and control our whereabouts when we were working with them. And I realized, like, oh, yeah, we were being sex trafficked. So I started speaking about it and my experiences. A lot of the girls that I worked with also came forward and shared their experiences, and I started traveling and getting asked to speak at events. Now I work with a couple different nonprofits for it, and I just got invited to join the board of the Michigan Anti Trafficking Project in October. So I'm really excited about that.

A (6:27)

Congratulations.

C (6:28)

Very well deserved. Thank you very much.

A (6:31)

So people might be hearing about your experience and thinking, well, that's not exactly what I'm picturing when I think of sex trafficking. And I mean, in your view, when people think of sex trafficking, what. What are. What are the. Some of the kind of the myths. And maybe not myths, but what's the kind of classic scenario. People are almost thinking, van.

C (6:48)

They think, big white van. Somebody pulls up in a van, kidnaps you, and then takes you like a brothel in Mexico. And it. It's. It's not like that in my experience. Right. I'm not. Not saying that there isn't things that have happened where people have probably been kidnapped and trafficked. Absolutely. However, the majority of it through the advocacy work that I've done, being in that environment for as many years. I was there for 15 years, and now working on this other side of it with these nonprofits and seeing the statistics, the. The stuff that's happening in. Within our own communities, a lot of it is more grooming, like, familial stuff, you know, happening in families, like sporting events, different things like that. It's not so much this idea of, like, oh, a guy's following me in a parking lot, and I'm in a van, and now my organs are being harvested somewhere. So the.

A (7:40)

The. The coercion is quieter and more intimate than somebody being in a normal life and being kidnapped and then being forced to be a sex slave.

C (7:53)

Yes. Yeah. And I will say there's different, like, dynamics. Right. So one of the things that I try to impress when we speak about it is there's different types of trafficking as well. So some people that are being trafficked, like, I had my own apartment. I was able to come and go and leave my job. Right. But there were these situations and things where, like, I testified against Ron Jeremy to the lapd cause that was one of the people that our club trafficked us to. Um, when he was arrested, I want to say, was it like 2020, maybe that he was arrested? I might have the year wrong on that, but the LAPD put out this thing that said, hey, if this. It was an experience of yours. So myself and another showgirl, you know, spoke to them and gave our testimony. But there's this thing that can happen where they have something on you. Right. They can hold it over your head. In my situation, I worked for a club that was a chain, and so if you get blacklisted from that, you're blacklisted from all of their different areas. I didn't know anything other than dancing, so I didn't have, like, a gun to my head. You know, you have to do this. However, it was like my whole life was in their hands, and so I felt indebted to them. And, you know, they know how to target people. I think that's something. There's also the trafficking type that comes up with the boyfriend. Right. We get the boyfriend experience where somebody's lured into a relationship. We're seeing more young, young people. That's happening too. And we have labor trafficking. So there's multiple different aspects of it. So this idea that somebody just runs up and kidnaps somebody is far less likely to happen than these other three avenues where you almost accidentally go into something because you're, you know, not seeing or ignoring red flags as they're coming up.

A (9:41)

So it's. It's. So sex trafficking is. Is in the larger umbrella of human trafficking?

C (9:46)

Yes. Yeah. Sex trafficking, labor trafficking. There' other types in my state and the advocacy work that I do, I work with sex trafficking and labor trafficking because those are the two types of experience that I had. The clubs that I worked at are sex trafficking and labor trafficking, which is how I became familiar with both. That makes sense.

A (10:06)

And. And I imagine there's some instances where maybe people can even be born into families where 100.

C (10:11)

Part of that lifestyle. Yeah. A lot of the survivors that I work with, because the different nonprofits that I work with have a lot of survivor stuff, which I think is great because you need to hear from the people that lived it. The majority of the stuff that I've encountered, there's a lot of family trafficking, a lot where a, you know, step parent or a parent is trafficking the children out to people, Whether that be, you know, physical stuff. I mean, there's lots. With the Internet now, it's. It's become an even bigger spectrum.

A (10:41)

That makes sense. Yeah, It's. It's. It's horrifying. So the child sexual abuse materials and then the.

C (10:46)

Yeah.

A (10:47)

Can that all be linked? That. Can you be.

C (10:49)

Oh, yeah.

A (10:50)

Sex trafficking and doing sex.

C (10:51)

Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. Like, in my experience, a lot of the women that I worked with there was. I. I try to explain to people there's A route. Right. Like whether it comes through not, not to say every family. So before everybody wants to jump me about it. But the majority of the victims that I saw have situations where they're coming from a home where they were sexually abused at one point. And so the idea to go into a relationship with somebody who's much or different things is enticing because they've already not had like control over their body because somebody else has had access to it. So these women grow up and getting into sexually abusive relationships isn't seemingly as bad of an idea to them because they don't see the abuse the same way, if I'm conveying that correctly.

A (11:41)

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

C (11:42)

So like for me, going into a club, having grown up and having sexual abuse in my home at the hands of a family member, I was presented with the idea that in this club nobody can touch me unless I want them to. And then when they ask you to do things coming from abuse already you're able to disassociate much easier. And you know, there's a financial benefit or now we have like a drug benefit or different things. So you see a lot of different windows in. But there does seem to be this common link of some type of brokenness within the like family structure. Whether it's, you know, parents that are working a lot or not checking with their kids. Kids are doing, you know, that's how these adults are able to kind of sneak their way in because they're. These kids are looking for a sense of longing and connection and the predators are using that to their advantage.

A (12:36)

Yeah, it's really interesting. It's like there's, there's going to be some kind of crack in the wall that.

C (12:41)

Yeah. That the predator can get through 100%. Yeah. If you're coming from a place where everything is great, you're well loved, you understand, you're having, you know, so much value and life spoken into I every day, you know, 40 year old guy coming to an 8 year old is going to send off alarm bells. But when they see, hey, here's this kid who's on the computer late at night alone, the predator can go, oh, okay. So obviously there's not a lot of parental involvement here or you know, they're not like hopping on and checking every single thing. And so they're looking at these little cracks in the surface and how they can work their way into the child's life.

A (13:18)

So it sounds like it doesn't even necessarily need to be the most dysfunctional family it can be Just something as simple is like, oh, I, my, my kids on the Internet.

C (13:26)

Unfettered Internet access. Yeah, absolutely.

A (13:29)

That's really scary.

C (13:30)

Yeah, I tell people a lot. I say, you know, if I wanted to traffic your child, I wouldn't take your child from a parking lot because you'd look for them. I would get your child to walk out the door with me by, you know, coaching them and making them feel loved. I would get them, teach them how to betray you. Even when I was there, the club taught me, you know, how to go to school because you had to. I'm going to school. Still. I was, still. I graduated high school and helped work with my schedule and stuff so that I could go and strip, you know, until 2:00' clock in the morning and then. But they would let me go at like midnight. So they're doing me a favor because they know I have class the next day, you know, and just doing these things that are luring me in to make me think like, I'm building up a family here. These people really respect me. I wasn't asking myself, why do 35 year olds want to hang out with me? I'm a high schooler. I just felt like I'm so, look at, I'm so cool and I must be so adult. Like when in reality, I remember the very first dance that I did, my manager took me up to the man and said, she's in high school. And that's what sold my dance. He didn't even question how old I was. As soon as he heard I was in high school, he got up and walked back to the couch with me. That's how I sold my first dance. So looking back now, they absolutely use that to their advantage to present this like pedophiliac fantasy for the customers of like, oh, here as a student, it's, it's pretty bizarre, but it, it's, I mean, it's no different. Predators are predators. They come in all shapes, sizes and colors.

A (15:05)

That's so deeply disturbing. But it's also, I can see where a high schooler would almost find some of that. Like, oh, yes, this empowers me. Yeah, I'm in control. It's an illusion.

C (15:14)

Yes, it's an. And I came from poverty too. So seeing money, you know, that's another thing. They, they're getting money, they're getting gifts. You're getting all these different types of things that are kind of feeding into this where I have so much lack of my own self. They're pouring into me. And that's what was creating the bond that was the grooming that was taking place.

A (15:34)

It's really horrifying. So businesses can do it. Yeah. Boyfriends.

C (15:40)

Boyfriends, for sure.

A (15:41)

Families.

C (15:41)

Yes, absolutely.

A (15:42)

Any, like, there's a. Are there. Do there tend to be major players in sex trafficking? Or is that something where it really just is very varied? Independent?

C (15:51)

Yeah, I will say, like in my state in Michigan, I remember meeting with a lawyer at a victims advocacy center. I had to go in there and learn about the county, you know, that we were working in. And she explained that there was like kind of like seven kingpins, you know, within that. That area. And so there's seven people, but collectively they all work together. So they're not. It's not like a gang thing. Like, oh, this is my girl and this is my girl. They. They switch and interchange. And these, these victims, male and female, are kind of being rotated through, so because collectively they're all after the same thing. When I worked with the FBI in 2020, it was three gangs, actually, and the gangs were working together. Three actual totally different gangs, mind you. Like, one is a biker and there's like a couple other that are like, into streets and drugs. But because they were all making so much money, they said, why don't we all form this like, coalition to become traffickers together? So I won't say that there's like, it's not like the movies, like we got Scarface at a table with cocaine and he's like the top guy. But there are groups that are working together. I don't think that the public sometimes gives these people enough credit because they are actually very organized. I will say they are organized and they're very business minded, which is why the whole myth of like following you around a parking lot or tying a ribbon on your car doesn't make sense because it just brings in like, way too much attention.

A (17:25)

That makes a lot of sense. And ultimately these people are motivated and tell me what's wrong, but they're motivated to make money.

C (17:31)

Oh, yeah, yeah. Money is. Is the end all. So whether it's through drugs or whether it's through trafficking, you know, their, their modus operanda is like, we want to make money and sex sells a lot faster. So it's easier to use a single person over and over again throughout the day. And there is people that disappear and stuff as well. I mean, so there's fear, there's intimidation. You know, there is threats against the family. Even when I was. Was working with the FBI to try to help one particular victim get out There was times where my whole family was afraid we didn't know what was going to happen, if they were going to find out who I was or what was taking place. So it's a big mess, really, but it's a mess that still has its own structure. It is a business. At the end of the day, it's a business.

A (18:17)

And you're not going to risk your business with unnecessary.

C (18:20)

Unnecessary attention. Yeah. You're not going to go after people that like, oh, here's, you know, Brenda. She comes from a stable, loving home. We want the kid that kind of gets overlooked. We want the one that doesn't seem like has a lot of friends. The one that people aren't going to maybe search for because parents just have too much going on or they're getting moved around homes. Foster kids are at higher risk.

A (18:44)

And one thing you've mentioned a couple times in your situation as well is the youth of the people. Is this fair to say? I'm using myself as a kind of a dumb example. I'm 30. I'm 31, so I'm in my 30s. You know, sometimes I see people posting on social media of like, I almost got trafficked. And it's like, you're about my age. You're a bit older.

C (19:03)

Yeah.

A (19:03)

And I'm like, no one's gonna be.

C (19:04)

Trying to traffic me.

A (19:06)

I'm too old.

C (19:07)

Yeah. I feel like if you. If you get situations like that, like, we. Just a week ago, I was on a call, and the person I was on the call with had to go to a senior center. Right. Because they have claims of, you know, somebody is assaulting the seniors, and they're forensics examiners, so they have to go in. So in situations where you have older people, it's more likely happening that it's like, opportunistic. Right. Like a bunch of seniors here, somebody's like, hey, I'm allowing them to come in and assault these people versus, like, am I gonna kidnap somebody's grandma from the street corner and sell her? No, probably not. If you're older and you have a drug problem. Right. You're more likely to fall into that because the exchange will eventually become, well, why don't you work this off through sex instead of finance? But if you're just like a mom at the store, it's probably not as likely. You know, it's usually tied to some type of dysfunction in society. If older people are targeted.

A (20:09)

Right. Because they're vulnerable, maybe they can.

C (20:11)

Yeah.

A (20:12)

They're not able to convey what's happening.

C (20:14)

To them. Yeah.

A (20:15)

So there, there's a sp. There would be special circumstances there that would make that possible. But as far as like yeah, your suburb mom going to target me walking around the neighborhood. No one's. Because I, I have a husband who's going to hopefully raise the alarm.

C (20:29)

Yeah.

A (20:30)

And the police are going to look into it and bring down a lot of heat.

C (20:33)

You might scream as you're getting pulled away.

A (20:35)

I would not go along with it.

C (20:37)

Not going to go along with it. It's a lot messier for everybody involved.

A (20:41)

And I would also probably be very incentivized to get out of that situation. So it's, it's not going to be a good situation where you are having someone who's going to be fighting against you at every turn versus someone who's like, well I put myself into this situation. Yes, I deserve it.

C (20:56)

Yeah. That I think that's what they prey on. I know like in the ring that I was working on a lot of the victims that were older, it was coming in through drugs, they were coming to purchase drugs and that's what the gangs were using against them was drugs. So that was the stuff that I was taking back and forth to the FBI that the, the victim was reiterating to me.

A (21:16)

It just seems to be a lot of overlap in just my mind with some of these sexual crimes. We talked about child sexual abuse materials. We talked about, you know, classic more prostitution, illegal prostitution. And I guess like when I always, I my, you know, my mom grew up in New York City and, and she would you know, say things like oh like Times Square. It used to be like, you know, you would have the prostitutes and the pimps. You see them, they're dressed in a certain way. Yeah, it's very over the top and that's, that's since not really the case anymore. It' all gone online. But what, what does sex trafficking look like versus that kind of old timey way of. We think of prostitutes and pimps and I guess. Yeah, like I mean is there still that element. But now we just think about it as sex trafficking.

C (22:01)

I think that people the general public doesn't realize is that you drive by it and you just don't know what you're looking at. You know, it's not the same where like they're wearing the big hat, you know and there's like yeah, I got a cane and a like Lincoln. You know, it's not like that. Like when I've done street ministry before we cross trafficking victims and the guys that are watching from the corners, you wouldn't know. I know because I know the demographic. I know what we're out there looking at. And I've done street ministry with programs that specifically work with trafficking victims. Right. And so we're going out there. They know who the victims are. And you have like two guys that look like they're just standing on the street smoking a cigarette. Like, you wouldn't have any idea that that's what's taking place unless you know that area and know what you're looking for. I think a lot of it, I tell people if you drive by a sign that says massage, live entertainment, there's trafficking going on in there. But you don't know what you're looking at. Right. A lot of the clubs have like the. The Russian thing. Like. Right. Like there's girls that are brought over here from Russia. They're mail order brides. And the husbands will quit their job, put their wife in the strip club, and then she has to ride out her contract while she's here. So that's trafficking. Right. Because he brought her over here for the purpose of financial benefit. But we don't know what we're looking at. And so we're so focused on, like, wanting the Hollywood experience that we're almost like, numb to the mundane that takes place in trafficking that we want taken.

A (23:34)

We want.

C (23:34)

Yeah, yeah. Well, Liam needs to, like, kick a door open. Like, that's not happening. No. You know, is it fair to say.

A (23:42)

That, like, back in the day, those, those pimps and prostitutes, like, we would probably think of them as sex trafficking victims nowadays?

C (23:49)

Yeah, absolutely. Like, in our state, we're working on a bill where they're actually trying to change the verbiage surrounding that. We just introduced two bills where they want to, like, basically stop using the word prostitute because of the, you know, stigma that comes with that. When the reality is is a lot of them, I can't say all, some are there by choice, which is radical, but it does happen. But the majority of them are. This is a trafficking victim. This is not a prostitute. This is not Pretty Woman with Julia Roberts. This is a woman who's in fear of her life or has taken physical beatings and is in. Unable to say no to what is taking place. Yeah.

A (24:26)

And I think, I think sex trafficking victim is good verbiage. And I, you know, because I. Yeah, it's like, I don't want to say sex worker because someone on Onlyfans might be a sex worker.

C (24:34)

Yeah.

A (24:34)

They're in business for themselves and we.

C (24:36)

Have issues with only fans now too. Yeah, we, a lot of it has moving to these types of platforms and once again, we just don't know what we're looking at.

A (24:43)

Right.

C (24:44)

You know, I know like the porn industry. Like my interaction with Ron Jeremy, though I wasn't in porn. He used to tour the clubs. So we had porn stars that are coming in that are abusing the girls inside. But because back then being a stripper was akin to like being unbelieved about anything. These people had free reign within those industries to do these things and, and go in and take their pick and, you know, but nobody wanted to listen to it back then. So you do have to be careful with sex worker. Right. Because when you say sex worker, then it's just like. Yeah, it implies consent automatically. There was times where I was trafficked and then there was times where I prostituted. And they're different. Right. Like that's something that's important. Like there was times where I was like, I'm okay with what's happening, not because it's right, but because this is where my mindset is. And then there's other times where I'm not okay, I'm afraid, but I better act. Right. Because there's a consequence if I don't. Yes.

A (25:43)

And that makes so much sense. And someone who's in and you know, in a sex trafficking situation and is essentially doing sex works in exchange to pay off their drug debt.

C (25:53)

There's also an element of coercion 100% too.

A (25:56)

You're literally paying off a debt.

C (25:57)

Yes. Yeah. And you become continuously indebted. That's what I realized when we were working to get, you know, when I was working with the feds, is that there was this constant cycle of you're not going to get out of the debt because there's something is going to happen that's going to get more debt and more debt and you're going to get deeper in. And now we're, they're expecting them to do new jobs or like the victim that I worked with went from just being an addict who was going into purchase to now you're in charge of going and helping bring people in to purchase drugs so we can abuse them. And it's just like this continuous cycle. The prey becomes the predator as well.

A (26:35)

Yeah, I, I, you know, you, you do mention the. I'm, I'm curious. We talked about some of the victims and how different types of. I like that you mentioned that there's different ways this can look. Because what you experience is not necessarily the same thing as what somebody who's like a drug addict would experience. And it's not the same thing as what a child born into a family where they're doing this experience, or someone who just meets the wrong guy and is kind of lured into this. But so it's all. Can look very different, even though the same thing is essentially happening. And I guess the definition, the wider definition would be, is it. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong. Is it basically just like, like someone being moved around or. Or there's. There's someone being moved around for doing sex acts under some form of coercion?

C (27:19)

Yeah, you can get moved around. I, Yeah, I can say they. They can get moved around, but it's not as common because again, like I said, the public is driving by this stuff happening, and so they're not looking. And because they're not looking and saying, hey, this couple that's walking this child up and down the street doesn't really match the kid. And so they' asking the questions. Things are happening underneath where the traffickers can almost become, like, comfortable in their circle. And it's also, I will say, incredibly hard to prosecute on trafficking. Usually, like, we had to go the drug route, so we couldn't even go after trafficking because there's also like, what's, you know, what's being forced, what's consent? What's forced? What's consent? Especially when you're dealing with adults. And so people can get moved around. But what I saw was the children get moved. The adults are pretty stationary for the most part, in my experience. I can't speak for everything, but in the stuff that I've worked with, the adults were more stationary, the kids were getting moved.

A (28:23)

That's wild. And so, like, there's a situation where it's not even like. And I imagine, and I don't mean to say that any sort of judgmental or critical way, but there's almost a level of like, if someone might be a drug addict and maybe has a lot of criminal history, whereas it's like, okay, now they're saying that this was forced, but this wasn't. How do we prove that?

C (28:41)

How do we prove it?

A (28:41)

They don't have a lot of credibility.

C (28:42)

With a jury 100%. That was something that, like, the victim that I was trying to help, we ran into that issue multiple times. Like, even when they would get her and they, the feds would try to get information out of her, she would just buckle down and not say anything. And so as she's going Away, it looks like, oh, well, she's complacent in this. But then, you know, on the back end, she's coming to me and saying, like, I'm freaked out. I think they're going to kill me. But when she. She's sitting there, you know, in the cell and they're trying to speak with her, she just clams up because she doesn't know who's watching, who's, you know, who's inside the jail, like, taking notes to go back and take to these people. It's scary. It's very scary. And we saw stuff where unfortunately, you know, there was like, law enforcement involved and. And so you don't really know. I think when they're in that circle, they see such a different side of society that you lose the ability to trust who you can reach out to, you know, you. Yeah, yeah.

A (29:40)

It's horrible. Do. Do they kill people like these?

C (29:44)

Oh, yeah. Gangs. No. Well, like, I saw, like, at the club that I worked at, we had a guy that came up and stabbed his girlfriend in the parking lot for not making enough money. You know, there's obviously, like, a lot of, like, beatings, things like that that take place. The drug world seems to have a lot more. Like if. If it's trafficking mixed with drugs, there's a lot more. We call them accidental overdoses. Right. Because you can just pin it on stuff like that. So I can't say that they're. Nothing I experienced was like somebody getting drug outside and shot in the head. However, there are a lot of forced overdoses. I do know that. Yeah. So they. They will force an overdose.

A (30:28)

And that could be a boyfriend or a gang member.

C (30:30)

Yeah, boyfriend, gang member. I mean, even stuff with families as well. Yeah.

A (30:37)

You know, who are the. I mean, this is probably an outdated and problematic term, so I apologize.

C (30:41)

No, it's okay.

A (30:42)

Who are the johns? Who are the people? Who are the customers?

C (30:45)

Yeah, so that's a spectrum, too. That's a huge spectrum. Like, I. We had people that worked and. I don't care. I say it all the time. I've said it in front of them. Actually. We had people that worked, like, in the Michigan capital that helped. Yeah. Create legislature, you know, that were coming into our club on their lunch break acting for, you know, asking for sex acts and then going back, like, let's make laws to crack down on prostitutes. Like, are you kidding me right now? You know, and then. So, yeah, you're doing it. You're fighting crime, I think. But we had that and then, I mean, we had one. One guy I remember drove a special needs bus and he would park this with people in the bus and come into the club. And it was just like, what is taking place right now? To the point where the club actually intervened and said, you can't leave a bunch of people in the bus. Like, you have leave now. So I mean, the. And he was such a per. Of such a weird guy that would request really insane things. And. And so it's like you see like people, you wouldn't even think all the way to powerful people. And when you're dealing in that world and you see the powerful people come in, it just skews the whole perspective, you know?

A (32:00)

So it's not like some bad guy wearing a big mustache.

C (32:03)

No, you wouldn't have any idea. Yeah, I remember watching one time there was a very huge case in Michigan. I'm not going to say what, because I feel like people would be like, I can Google that. But I remember it was on TV and there was this attorney speaking who was representing this. This massive suit. And I remember looking going, oh, my God, that's Fifi. Because that was his name. Like his fake name was Fifi. And I was just like, what's he doing on tv? And then having to like, see him in the club. Like, wait a minute, you're a lawyer, you know, like. So it was like, oh, crap up. Because again, this is somebody who would come in and purchase sex, you know, from people. So it was such a bizarre experience from the outside looking in. And then the stuff that I dealt with, like when you're, you know, some of the johns are very powerful people. Like people that work for porn companies and the financial backing and things that they have. Real estate agents, you know, doctors, we had teachers. All types of different things that come in. It's. It's such a huge spectrum. You wouldn't know. I. I don't think you would know unless you have sixth sense where you can pick up, like, something's going on here. I can't figure out what it is, but I don't feel right around this person.

A (33:13)

Right.

C (33:13)

And.

A (33:14)

And yeah, I know. I mean, Kevin told me that, like, a lot of attorneys are pretty wild people.

C (33:20)

Yeah, I can imagine there's an element to that. Yeah.

A (33:24)

Is that fair to say, Kevin?

C (33:26)

Yeah.

A (33:28)

I was like, well, you're a little jealous.

C (33:30)

I plead the fifth, of course.

A (33:31)

But I think, you know, I think there's is something to that.

C (33:34)

Yeah. Well, it's like we. We're talking earlier on a different subject. I feel like that Some people have so much. They have to be so in control in some facets of their life that it's like their, their wild side, if it's not that, but. Or their, their darkness has to leech out another way. Right. And so you wouldn't think that this person who's so wise and driven and financially stable and that has this other side to them. But, but, you know, from what I experienced, what my friends that I know survived different these things and people I know that had, you know, grew up in this as children, the, the dynamic of seeing these people, that some of them are just, you know, your, your typical pedophile. But then there's others that it's like, this is how I cut loose. You know, some people go out to the bar and drink and this is their thing. Like I, I go to sex workers.

A (34:26)

Is it fair? I'm not trying to defend. Offend anyone in a situation like this, but is it fair to say, like, some of these people may not know they're like partaking in sex trafficking?

C (34:34)

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I actually tell people all the time, like, if you watch porn, you're partaking in sex trafficking. And that ruffles people's feathers, but it's.

A (34:42)

I bet it does.

C (34:43)

It's very true. Like, you can't be like, I'm anti trafficking and pro porn because like they're one in the same.

A (34:49)

Right.

C (34:49)

Like there's, there's trafficking happening there. You like the modeling industry, guess what? People are being trafficked, you know. Yeah. And one supports the other. Right. So like they, the CSC stuff, you know, the child stuff that floats around in the dark web is still umbrellaed underneath some of these same companies. We see that with the lawsuits that pornhub is currently experiencing where they have found CSC on there, but they're not taking it down and they have been collecting money off of it. So you do see, like one fuels the other. They are more intertwined at this point, I think because of the Internet than we would like them to be. It's just leached into everything.

A (35:29)

Is there a way? Because I'm sure a lot of people are wondering this. And in your view. I know this is controversial. I know people increasingly have been sort of advocating for being kind of open to sex work or people taking the means of their own production and kind of having that be empowering or whatnot. And I know that's controversial in and of itself.

C (35:48)

Yeah.

A (35:48)

Is there, is there a way to unentangle them or do you see this thing where, yeah, consume It.

C (35:54)

I don't think at this point we can untangle them because we. We don't know what's what anymore. Right. Like, so I knew girls that were doing like webcam stuff on the side, but I also knew that their boyfriends would sit in the audience and collect their money and, you know, beat them if they didn't make a quota. But yet they go home and now they still have to keep working. Like, we get out at 4 o' clock in the morning, she's got to go home and make content for the next two hours. And this is just when you had webcam access. So I can only imagine, you know, that the entanglement with things like OnlyFans and stuff. It's not to say that everybody that's on that platform is being trafficked, obviously, but how would we weed it out? They look so much like your everyday people. How would we weed it out?

A (36:36)

Yeah, you need to almost sit down and interview everybody.

C (36:39)

Yeah, yeah. You'd have to be like, let's do a moral contract before we get into this, you know, but yeah, yeah. I don't think that we can. I tell people, if you want to consume porn, right, and that, like, I'm not judging you. Everybody has their thing. I used to watch it too. But if you want to consume it and you're like, I want to make sure there's no trafficking involved, well, ask your friends, you know, Bill and Tina, to make some porn for you, you know, because they're not. They're in a loving relationship or whatever.

A (37:10)

You don't be friends with some. Really.

B (37:11)

Yeah.

A (37:12)

Just be.

C (37:12)

Yeah. Find a swingers party. I don't know, you know, but like, yeah, like they're. They seem like it's. Who knows? I'm sure there's something going on there too, but for the most part, like, there are ways. But like, you're gonna have to go to some organic marketing, you know, like, it's not gonna be found on these platforms anymore.

A (37:30)

It makes like now that I don't even want to say no.

C (37:32)

Don't even give them ideas.

A (37:34)

Like, that's. But I mean, but it's actually really disturbing because it's like, as you said, it's the same thing.

C (37:39)

Yes.

A (37:40)

As we're driving by something that we're not even seeing yet.

C (37:43)

You don't even realize what you're going by.

A (37:44)

Same people clicking on this stuff on the Internet and it's like, that's not even. Yeah, it is. You think it is.

C (37:49)

I mean, like, I look at Ron as a perfect Example, one of the world's largest porn stars, right? And everybody knew for the longest time that he was a trafficker, that he was an abuser, that he was a rapist. I mean, everybody knew. And at that point, the only reason I believe that he actually got caught is because he stepped outside of his circle of that world and he attacked what we would call like a regular person. Right? He went after a 15 year old girl at a party that had no ties to any type of sex work and attacked some random women in bathrooms. It took him stepping outside of that world and going after your everyday people for them to go, wait, hold on, wait a minute. And then once, you know, that door was open, like by the time I talked to the detective, I think he said at that point, like 75 other women had almost the exact same story that I did and that my friend had as well. We both, you know, reached out together. So it had been an issue for so long.

A (38:47)

That's like, I mean, it kind of goes with the theme we're talking about. You know, it's like when, when it happened, the heat comes down when, when there's somebody who's not almost being capable of being coerced to the same extent as everyone else and then everything. And that's why it, I mean, again, Ron Jeremy, you know, what he's doing is, is maybe a little bit different, but the sex trafficking angle, that's why you don't forcibly abduct people typically.

C (39:15)

Yeah, yeah. Because it's opportunities like, and you're.

A (39:18)

Then everything's going to come down when that gets revealed.

C (39:21)

And there are people and stuff that I've seen, you know, just in working with these nonprofits where people were so close to getting trafficked and they really, truly were cases like that where, you know, a child came forward. There was one in, in Flint where a child came forward because she tried to cut contact off with a guy that she had met on a game. Oh God. On like a children's game. I can't say if it was Roblox Minecraft, but like something like that. Then went to, you know, phone conversation. Something in her said, oh, I think I'm going to back away from this. I don't. You know, she was maybe 13 and he freaked out. I mean, just, you know, like, why won't you meet me? Why won't you come here and all that. And then the police actually did end up going to him and found out that there was other victims attached to this. So like he was a trafficker. You know, I Don't know what they arrested him for, but I do know because she had to testify against him. So, yeah, like it, um, you know, that kind of stuff, like there it is happening and people are luring them in. But again, like, you wouldn't know that unless you went through this kid's phone and, and all that. I mean, I tell people, like, I understand we can all believe that we've done our due diligence to raise our kids to know better. And you can have 10,000 conversations, but if you're going to put, you know, the Internet in their hands, we have, you know, we have to be more mindful of like, what conversations are taking place place. I do this advocacy work and I found a guy speaking inappropriately to my oldest daughter when she was much younger on Roblox. And it's like this happened even in my home where somebody is trying to get her to like engage in sexual conversation. I'm not gonna say he was a trafficker, but did I find a pedophile trying to talk to my kid on there? Absolutely. So we have to. Even me thinking I educate about this, I still had to be like, okay, let me get your phone. And that's something that we still have. Like, my daughter's 17 and I'm like, give me your phone. Yeah, you know, like, let me see it. You. I still have these conversations with my 18 year old or 19 year old who's in college. Like, you know, so you have to.

A (41:25)

Yeah, I think it's really. I think a lot of parents feel like I raised my kid right. They're not going to do anything, but they forget that. You know, kids are confused. They also are people pleasers sometimes and that can be a bad combination when they're confronted with a pedophile.

C (41:39)

Right. And they might not know what they're looking at. You know, I, they're not, they're going to come right out and be like, hey, I'm going to send you a picture of my genitals.

A (41:46)

Do you mind?

C (41:46)

Or. Yeah, let's just make your friends. Yeah, like, you know, you don't want to make your friends. I mean, we see it all the time with these different groups and that, and if they can get them out the door, then you have a more likely situation. I personally think a lot of the stuff where you do see the kidnapping, we just have pedophiles and bad guys being bad guys for the sake of murder and rape versus the trafficking aspect.

A (42:09)

So like, you know, I say, I say, like I see women saying, I saw you Know, someone tied a loop on my car, or someone was creeping me out in the Home Depot parking lot. And I, I think to my myself either you've been, like, listening to too much true crime and perhaps are being paranoid and you just saw a guy.

C (42:23)

Yeah.

A (42:24)

Or you saw a creepy guy and your instincts told you that. And so it's like, don't disregard your instincts because someone may be praying, seeking to prey on you, but just not in like a, you're going to be sold internationally kind of way in a more of like rape and murder kind of.

C (42:40)

Yes. Yeah. And like, I, I had my own creepy guy incident, like, um, like a week or so ago. I was, like, working, and some guy was just standing in the dark behind this tree, like, staring at me. And so instead of being like, trafficker, I was like, what do you want? What that do you want? You know, like, to the point that it, like, brought people out of the bar and they were around me like, hey, dude, why are you standing in the dark staring at this girl? You know, So, I mean, but not everybody has that. But, like, they're not going to go where there's a bunch of camera following you around a store, following you around a parking lot. The whole tying ribbons thing. Like, they might be trying to steal from you, they might be trying to, like, take your car. They might be trying to just randomly sexually assault you. But we don't have, at least in, in my state, in Michigan, we don't have one documented case of anybody being abducted from a shopping center and sold into sex trafficking. It's not to say that it's never happened, but I think people expect too much out of statistics for underground crime. And that doesn't make sense either. Like, you know, we, A lot of this is a lot more mundane, I think, than people realize.

A (43:50)

And it's more people kind of being put in a position where, of course they're choosing this, even though they're not really choosing it, is coerced, but they almost think they are.

C (43:58)

Yeah. They think that they're meeting the guy of their dreams.

A (44:02)

When I was eating a couple, you know, number of years ago, where I was walking down the street, it was very late at night, very dark, very rural area, and a group of men in a car came up and started shouting some very sexual and disturbing things at me.

C (44:17)

Yeah.

A (44:17)

And I, you know, at that point, I'm like, Ms. True Crime. I was literally listening, I think, to like, missing Maura Murray before getting off this bus in this little area. And I remember, think I, I, I Was like, so I'm like, oh, yeah, I'll just run away.

C (44:31)

Yeah.

A (44:32)

Like, they were. I was walking this way.

C (44:35)

This.

A (44:35)

The side street was here, and, like, this is the main road, and they're coming here and they're gonna turn.

C (44:39)

Yeah.

A (44:40)

And I kept walking toward the car.

C (44:42)

Yeah.

A (44:42)

Like, I don't even know what's wrong with, like. I mean, I'm, like, looking back, I'm like, oh, my God. And, like, nothing happened. It's like, you know, a lot. And I. You know, I mean, if I wanted to post about it, I almost got trafficked. I think it was. I don't think there was.

C (44:54)

I almost got raped. I mean, it sounds maybe rapey.

A (44:56)

You know, it was definitely a rapey.

C (44:58)

Encounter, but it was encounter.

A (44:59)

It was. You know, I don't. I think they were just trying to freak me out. I mean, I don't think there's.

C (45:03)

Well, there is that too. Right.

A (45:05)

You're a woman in a public space.

C (45:06)

Yeah, I was. You know, how dare you walk down the street with your legs and your head and dress.

A (45:13)

Yeah. Like.

C (45:14)

Or men, too. I mean, we see it with men, guys getting, you know, and trafficked and. And that as well.

A (45:19)

And I do want to ask you.

C (45:20)

About that before we go, like, you.

A (45:21)

Know, so I. I think we have the perception it's women. Is that. Is that true or is it more diverse?

C (45:25)

No, it's both. Especially, like. Like I said, I was doing that stuff in the drug community. Men as well. One of the. The victims, I know her boyfriend, you know, it happened to him as well, where he was raped the first time, and then because of that, they filmed it and then used that as blackmail against him to use him, you know, for sexual favors and such. So it does happen in both, especially with young kids. We've got the young kids aspect as well. So I will say, say, probably more preferentially female. But it does happen, you know, with both. Absolutely.

A (46:01)

And then with children. That aspect of it is that, you know, is that a big portion of this? And how does that tend to manifest itself?

C (46:08)

I would say the kids is, I think, probably the one that we don't realize the most of, like, the gravity of what's taking place with children right now, especially with the family dynamic. Right. And, like, we just had a woman in Saginaw that got busted. She was, you know, making of her own children and then sending it to a guy, and then they were uploading it type of thing. So they're profiting off of it. So that we would consider that trafficking, because There's a financial aspect to it as well. So a lot of it is these kids, you know, these types of things that are happening in within the home or there's children that are like born into it, you know where. But the thing is, is like, you wouldn't know those kids exist. Like, you're not going to know because they're not coming from these affluent homes, anything. These are people that are already just lost in the system as they. Are they in school? Some are. A majority of them I know get taken out, you know, so they do get taken out of school, which is sad because it gives homeschooling such a horrific name. Yeah. It paints such a bad light on it. But a lot of them, I mean, they're. They are still functioning members of society because they've been groomed to think that this behavior is normal. They don't know anything different. There's a lot of brainwashed that goes into these things.

A (47:27)

So horrible.

C (47:28)

Yeah.

A (47:29)

One of the big things that kind of inspired this episode was we recently watched and discussed a documentary called or docu series called Amy Bradley is missing from Netflix 2025.

C (47:40)

And this is.

A (47:41)

And I'm just going to describe the scenario to you and I just would love you to tell me if it sounds like a typical sex trafficking case or not. So, a young woman, 24 years old, I believe, 23, early 20s, who goes out on a cruise ship with her family in the late 90s, 1998, I believe, and they have a good time. Then she goes missing. She's last seen in her family's cabin on the balcony. There's a school of thought that believes she fell off her family or, you know, perhaps met with foul play on the ship. Her family for years has said that they believe she was sex trafficked. They point to some photographs of a woman that appeared online that they say looks like her. And, um, you know, I mean, to be honest, for me, the kind of kidnapping off a cruise ship element just seemed very unlikely, I guess.

C (48:33)

What are your thoughts? Yeah, well, I mean, I can't say it's never happened because I've never been. But I mean, how hard would it be to smuggle a human being off of the cruise ship? You know, it would make more sense if like, they kidnapped her while she was on an island. Stop. Right. Like, versus just magically disappearing from the ship. Plus you got the whole family family there. Right. So they're gonna raise alarm bells where she at. That's gonna bring a bunch of attention. That's gonna get the ship Search that's gonna get. It's not, it's too messy, you know, to think, yeah, this is what happened. So, like, whether she fell off or something nefarious happened, it's obviously a place where you could get rid of a body. We're in the middle of the ocean. Right. But getting her on and off the ship, that seems highly unlikely.

A (49:20)

I, I, I tend to agree. And it just, it just struck me as like, we, and to see so many people taking that so seriously. Yeah. And again, we all acknowledge weird things happen.

C (49:29)

Yes.

A (49:29)

Unusual things that are outside of the norm happen.

C (49:32)

Yeah.

A (49:32)

But the idea, and I couldn't find any other documented case of somebody disappearing off a cruise ship where they're linking.

C (49:37)

It has to be such a, a huge conspiracy. Like, how many people would have to be involved. Right.

A (49:43)

How many people are risking their jobs?

C (49:44)

Right.

A (49:45)

And freedom.

C (49:45)

Right, and freedom. And, like, did many more people come missing off this same ship because traffickers just stop at one?

A (49:52)

Yeah.

C (49:53)

Right. Like, oh, she was the prize possession.

A (49:56)

Like, let's bring a ton of heat down on our whole operation when meanwhile, we have tons of girls around the Caribbean who would probably do this.

C (50:04)

Nobody would know that. Yeah, yeah. And we could, I mean, just taking somebody off the island seems far more probable than, you know, getting taken off of the.

A (50:12)

I think there's an element of this sort of kind of like, mythologized element of, quote, unquote, white slavery of like, you know, it's.

C (50:18)

So I agree.

A (50:19)

They're taking the white women and it's like there's something kind of racialized about that that makes me uncomfortable.

C (50:24)

Yeah, I agree. Well, and I will say from, like, okay, like the cases that we were able to prosecute in Michigan, it's not primarily white people. It's people that are coming from more. And this isn't to say that, you know, black or Hispanic communities come from more poverty, but it's almost like it's easier to go into certain communities where the, you know, schooling system might be not as strong or, you know, where there's more poverty and stuff. And those, you know, you know, there's all spectrums of poverty. However, it seems like, at least in, in our state and the stuff that we were able to prosecute, they, there was a mixed bag there. So it's not just like, oh, we're just targeting hot white women. You know, it's like, I mean, if anybody, I'll say, like, labor trafficking is primarily Hispanic people, you know, So, I mean, if we're going to, like, pick a nationality for things. Yeah. That they're going after, like, for farm help and stuff. So it doesn't. No, I. I think that's just something like the. It's almost like the white savior thing.

A (51:26)

I think it is, you know?

C (51:26)

Yeah.

A (51:27)

We're special. And they're trying to be, quote unquote, trying to.

C (51:30)

They just want the blondes, you know, Like, I'm not blonde and I got traffic, so how about that?

A (51:35)

Well, you're beautiful.

C (51:36)

Oh, well, thanks. Oh, you know, I was blonde for a short bit. Maybe that's what got them to me, you know? So they were like, oh, she's blonde.

A (51:43)

Finally.

C (51:44)

Let's traffic her.

A (51:45)

It's like people who are in a vulnerable position one way or another. That's work. Or through their upbringing or through drug problem or through meeting the wrong person romantically or through being on the wrong websites.

C (51:55)

You know, it's like I was a homeless teen. Yeah. Perfect candidate. You know, like, hey, we'll help you. You're going to get. You're going to get so much money right out of the gate. And they were right. Like, there. There's a little bit of lie mixed with a little bit of truth, too, that these traffickers aren't just going in and just feeding them lines of crap. They're making promises that they're keeping up with. Right. Or the gifts or the things that they're saying they're going to do. They're doing carrots. Yeah. Like, it's the carrot in front that says, hey, come on, come. Once you're isolated, things become very different. Obviously. That makes sense. Yeah.

A (52:25)

You know, as far as. I mean, I think most of the people listening, hopefully are adults, because this is a show for adults, because it.

C (52:31)

Talks about some pretty heavy, again, unfettered Internet access. If your kids are listening, let's talk.

A (52:36)

About these issues with your kids. But I don't want them to get scared too much. So maybe that's something that's between parents and kids. But do you have any recommendation for people on how to. To ensure something like this doesn't befall their kids?

C (52:50)

Yeah, you have to talk to your kids with real conversations. That. That is something that, like, we're not gonna mince words. And, like, I'm sorry if it makes people uncomfortable to hear the word vagina, but it's like, don't let people touch your vagina. We don't call it a cookie. Okay. Because when somebody's like, they're touching my cookie, you're not gonna think about, like, oh, you're supposed to Share your cookie and boom, we just let a kid, you know what I mean? Like get. And so we have to have like honest conversations. We have to have conversations and, and like if you're going to hand your kid access to the world, understand that predators don't care how much you love and have reared your child. If they get some one on one time in a chat room with your kid, they're going to go in, they're going to. Yeah. And they're going to rewire them and stuff. So. And they will get your child to turn against you and they'll teach them how to do that. And so we have to have open conversations. Like you don't need to terrify them with statistics or show them taken. Right. But we do have to have like here's phys boundaries, here's verbal boundaries. People should not be saying these things to you. Are people asking you to lie to me? What are they asking you to lie about? Are people having inappropriate conversations? You have to like have those kind of things and not just hope that we've done such a good job that it won't come to our doorstep.

A (54:09)

Yeah. If you, if you show them taken, they're just going to assume as long as I don't go to Europe.

C (54:13)

Yeah. As long as I don't, you know, go up and get candy out of the van man, then I'm fine.

A (54:18)

You know, it's more of like this guy is being nice to you online not because he's a nice guy who's your friend.

C (54:23)

Yeah.

A (54:23)

It's because he wants to rape you.

C (54:25)

Yeah. Because he's going to probably rape you, you know, and, and so it's like no adult wants to like wow, I just find this nine year old so interesting, you know, and we have to be like, be willing to have those tough conversations. I think that's really important. And not live under this ideology of, you know, oh well, if we just don't talk about it, it doesn't happen. Because if you don't teach your kids about the dangers of the world, the dangers of the world will fight your kids. And that's the truth. So we have to have those tough talks.

A (54:56)

Absolutely. And recognize when this does happen. And yeah, like, you know, something as simple as having the wrong boyfriend could.

C (55:02)

Lead to this and that's, and that create mass panic also. I think that's another big one. Like creeps are going to be creep. And if you want to like, you know, taking a photo of like hey, here's this weird guy that's followed me Six blocks around. You know, go ahead, feel free. But let's not create mass panic and start, you know, telling people any of. Almost trafficked me. Like, what do. How do you. Did he yell, I'm gonna traffic you? Like, you know, like, what is he doing that's making you think that?

A (55:27)

You know, let's like, focus on what is happening versus assuming why it's happening and what is happening in those situations. If people are sincerely running into weird encounters with men or whatnot, then that should be talked about because you could help other people who run into that.

C (55:43)

Yeah.

A (55:43)

So talk about it, but let's not make the inference about here.

C (55:45)

Yeah.

A (55:46)

Because that just. It confuses the issue. And when people don't understand the issue, then they can't safeguard against it.

C (55:50)

Right. And not everything is a conspiracy. I think that's important, too. Like, some things are just. There's awful people that do awful things, but it doesn't mean that it always has to be tied to this bigger, broader thing. You know, I think, like I said, you know, the majority of the stuff that happens, we don't even realize what we're driving by and what we're existing in. You know, you can drive if you just circle a city enough times. You know, a large city. Like, let's say we go to Fort Wayne. We drive around 18 different blocks. We've probably passed a home of somebody who's being trafficked. It just doesn't look the way that we do. Like, it might be happening to the children or it might be happening to an abusive spouse, you know, where the. The wife is being pimped out and stuff. So. But it doesn't always have to be, you know, sounds of freedom or whatever. Those, you know.

A (56:36)

Oh, God.

C (56:37)

Yeah, I know.

A (56:38)

Yeah. We need to take out the Hollywood version and think. Yeah, version that. That's so wonderfully said. Lena, is there anything. I didn't ask you about that you think it's important for people to know?

C (56:47)

No. I would say, if anything, like, you know, look. Look for behavioral changes, too. I would say that. I think that's a really big one. Like, I didn't notice. I knew the. The victim that got severely, you know, trafficked in that. And she is out now. Thank God she's out. She's on the road to recovery. She's doing fantastic. However, I didn't notice the changes. Right. Like, I just. Like this person's life was always so much chaos that it was like, oh, this is just a different. You know, the. The drugs are getting worse and, well, now they're, we're periods of time without speaking or, you know, when I was a kid getting groomed by an adult, you know, like I started acting out, but people just thought I was having a hard time or, you know, being over emotional. So there's, there is things to look for and that's again where we have to have those hard conversations. Hey, what's going on? You know, is this relationship safe? Do you feel safe? Those kind of things? Absolutely.

A (57:40)

Well, Lena, thank you so much for sharing your experience.

C (57:42)

For sure. Yeah, I love you guys.

A (57:44)

We love you too.

C (57:45)

I'll be back tomorrow for another segment.

A (57:48)

Now you're the unofficial third murder.

C (57:50)

Yeah, I feel like I'm one of you now, you know.

A (57:54)

Awesome. Well, thank you again.

B (57:56)

All right, thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved question crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

A (58:18)

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B (58:41)

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A (58:53)

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