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Give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Queens.commsheet content warning this episode contains discussion of murder and violence. So today is July 2, 2025 and Brian Kohberger just pleaded guilty to the murders of Zanna Kernodle, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan and Kaylee Gonsalves. We just watched the hearing in which he did that and now we're going to talk about it. My name is Anya Cain, I'm a.

Kevin Greenlee (4:46)

Journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

Anya Cain (4:49)

I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

Kevin Greenlee (4:52)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

Anya Cain (5:00)

And this is the University of Idaho Murders. Ryan Kohberger pleads guilty. Sam.

Kevin Greenlee (5:51)

You know, Anya, one thing that I thought was interesting was that the way the hearing began, pretty much right at the very beginning, Judge Hippler said, you know, I didn't find out about this hearing or this plea agreement until Monday evening. And he said he and his staff have been receiving a lot of communications from the public urging him to do this or that in regards to it. And he said, you know, I'm not reading any of that stuff.

Anya Cain (6:21)

No, it's. Sorry, I ain't reading all of that, basically, but nor should he. And I love that he started out with this. This judge has been. I mean, Judge Steven Hippler has been terrific. Honestly, in my opinion. Like, I just think he's done such a good job of, like, explaining stuff to people, but honestly, to anyone who sent anything to the judge or his staff, you are a deeply embarrassing person. You know, like, I mean, like, I understand that people, like, feel all heated about whatnot, but, like, learn about how things work before you do stuff like that, because if you know about how anything works, you would know that we should not have trial by mob in this country. We should not have online lynch mobs essentially going around and pushing, pressuring judges into doing this or that.

Kevin Greenlee (7:06)

Yeah. You do not want a judge to make a decision based on perceived sentiment from the public. You don't want whoever has the most supporters, for lack of a better word, to get the judge to rule in their way. You want the judge to make the decision based on the facts and the evidence of the law. And he also pointed out he has very little power here.

Anya Cain (7:28)

Yeah, there's just so much wrong with doing this. And again, it's this kind of true crime. Karen, you know, let me speak to the manager. I don't like this outcome, so I'm going to complain, like, attitude that people have that is just totally inappropriate when it comes to the law. Like, that's not a good application here. If people feel fired up because they're unhappy with what their elected prosecutor is doing, or they think they're soft on crime or too hard on certain crimes, or biased or not not doing a good job, the. The, the remedy is to put up someone who you would prefer and get them elected. If there are judge races, pay attention to those and vote for who you think is going to do the best job implementing the law. Sometimes judges are appointed, though, so that's not always going to happen. But. But irregardless, sending a bunch of complaining, like, this is an Amazon customer service. Like it's not like. Like it's not. It's not like, oh, no, like this isn't the outcome I wanted, so do something different. And we saw this with. Happened with Judge Francis Gull in the Delphi case. And, you know, people, oh, she's so corrupt and awful. And I'm going to send her an email. And it's just like, you know, you're just outing yourself as someone who just doesn't get it.

Kevin Greenlee (8:39)

Basically, it was the judge's responsibility today to make sure that Kohberger understood the consequences of pleading guilty. Because when you plead guilty to a crime or to a charge, you're giving up certain rights you have. And you want to make sure, does this man who's about to plead guilty, does he understand what he is giving up? And the judge also wants to make sure that the person who is pleading guilty actually committed the crimes he's pleading to. Those were his big responsibilities today.

Anya Cain (9:12)

Absolutely. So immediately Hitler's laying down the law, so to speak, and saying, you know, no outbursts or outbursts or demonstrations. If anyone tries anything, it's immediate removal. And possibly you're not going to be allowed back in here. You know, by in here, I mean, like, other, you know, future proceedings. And he said it was highly inappropriate that people were trying to contact him. And, quote, this court will never take into account public sentiment in making an opinion regarding its judicial decision in cases, end quote. And he's going to go, quote, based on where the facts and the law lead me, end quote. So I love that he said, I'm not going to read your stupid emails. I'm not going to listen to your stupid voicemails. Keep your stupid away from me. I'm going to forward all this to court security and if necessary, law enforcement. Have a great day. So we salute him.

Kevin Greenlee (9:58)

He also points out that the level of communications he's receiving is a burden to court staff, who, after all, has a lot of other cases to work on.

Anya Cain (10:06)

And also not only that, but that it's disruptive to court staff and deeply unfair to other defendants in other cases who are having their case go through the process and other victims in other cases that are having their case go through the process. So, as usual, true crime stays embarrassing, and people who are too obsessive about one case basically ruin it for everybody else. So that's true crime In a nutshell, in 2025, it's deeply unfortunate. And if I guess any of us, if someone comes to me and says, oh yeah, I was one of the people aiming, I would just say, you know, basically knock it off. Like, if that's, if, if your friends are doing that, if people, you know, are doing that, like, that's not a good use of their time or energy and they should be putting it into something else, regardless of what their reason is. You know, again, I get things get charged. I get things get emotional. But like, people shouldn't be doing that. That's just ridiculous. It's embarrassing. We have to make true crime better. We have to make true crime a place where people don't feel entitled to do stuff like that, you know. So he talked about the separation of powers. Like, again, like, it's like a. It's like a teacher having to like, explain to an unruly class, like, here's how things work, you fools. He says, you know, the prosecuting attorney is the sole authority in terms of determining what charges to bring, what penalties to ask for for those charges. And that also includes death penalty. So he wrote, like, you know, people asking me to implement the death penalty no matter what, I can't require the death penalty. And let's think about this for a minute. Would we want to live in a system where, you know, the judge just comes in and says, no, this man must be executed? Haha. Like. Like, let's think about that for a minute. That's awful. That's not how it should work. I mean, right?

Kevin Greenlee (11:54)

Absolutely.

Anya Cain (11:56)

No, I don't like this guy. So I think he's just going to be executed. And as you said, he said, my job is to make sure this plea is made freely, clearly and intelligently. He is only going to reject it if the defendant did not admit to all the elements of the crime and he wants to ensure that there's a factual basis for the plea. He did apologize. An interesting scheduling thing. He. We were kind of. And you expressed a little bit of concern about this behind the scene. Kevin, you were like, this is a really, like, tight turnaround in terms of a plea. Do you remember that?

Kevin Greenlee (12:29)

I do. I understand the reasons for it, which Hitler articulated, which I'm sure you're about to mention, but the idea of the plea coming in on late Monday afternoon, early Monday evening, and the hearing being on Wednesday morning, my thoughts immediately went to the victims of the families, or rather the families of the victims, pardon me, who, some of whom don't live in Idaho. And will want to be there, and they're not really getting a lot of time to set up travel arrangements.

Anya Cain (13:04)

No, it really was a tight turnaround. He apologized for that. He said that he learned about it with everyone else on Monday afternoon. And he noted that there was a short notice for the defendant's family as well as the victim's families. He said, quote, it was important I take the plea as soon as possible, end quote. And that was namely because he. He felt that this. This whole thing has been such a kind of intense responsibility for the court system that, okay, if there's not going to be a trial, we need to stop working on the trial at once. Because they had been going through, like, thousands of jurors to potentially, you know, prospective jurors to potentially pick up panels for the upcoming trials. So it was kind of like, we need to lock this down. And I understand his thinking, but I also understand that that would be very troubling, you know, to have to run to Idaho for this, for the. For the people involved. He. He thanked the ada, county sheriff marshal service, county court administration, and all the security. So he was very much like, you know, I find a lot of judges are very much, like, protective of their teams, you know, and I think we saw that with Delphi to a certain extent, and we saw it with. We see it with Hitler here. So he's thanking all these people who are making it possible and noted that a lot of them were taking vacations and came back from that because they were anticipating this trial happening later in the summer. So they kind of, you know, had to. Had to kind of loop back. Now as a reminder to people, CO Burger was facing five counts, one count of burglary, and then four counts of first degree murder. And what we got more information about what this plea deal is going to look like or what it looks like. It's. It said that the defendant cannot argue for a lesser sentence. So he was going to get 10 years fixed on a. On a burglary charge. Right, right. And then for counts two through five, each count would be a fixed life sentence served consecutively waived, right to appeal, as well as appeal the sentence and the right to seek leniency or reconsideration. So he's kind of throwing away his ability to do anything about it once he gets sentenced. Is that fair to say?

Kevin Greenlee (15:25)

That's fair to say. And so it was, as we say, it's important that the judge make sure the Coburger understood what he was giving up. He's giving up quite a lot I don't know.

Anya Cain (15:36)

Like, again, I. We said this in our previous episode. I understand that people may want the death penalty in such a heinous case, and they feel like, oh, now he's just gonna be able to go live his life. But this is, this is like, in some ways, like, the worst outcome for him because he can't fight anything anymore. There's nothing more he can do. He's basically powerless at this point.

Kevin Greenlee (15:57)

Yeah, he's done.

Anya Cain (15:58)

And, like, when people are saying, oh, well, now he can just, like, sit back and do interviews about what he did in prison, I mean, I don't know what to tell you. The death penalty takes forever to be implemented. He could probably do similar things in that situation, too. It's not like he would be executed next month.

Kevin Greenlee (16:16)

You know, we looked it up, actually. The last time someone was executed in the great state of Idaho was in 2012. So it's not like they are executing large numbers of people.

Anya Cain (16:28)

I understand that's for some people, death penalty would be the only recourse here, but it's also not necessarily what the judge would have sentenced him to. So I don't know. I don't understand the reaction to this. I think it's mostly emotional. And then we've also heard from people who are like, oh, we're not going to learn the full story. And I get that, you know, you kind of want to know what happened, but I mean, not really from a reliable narrator either way.

Kevin Greenlee (16:54)

And I, I, I don't share the negative feelings about the plea. I understand it. I do understand it. You, what he did was so heinous that you want him to face the worst possible punishment, which I guess would be death. And so the idea that he doesn't have to face that worst possible punishment, I can understand why that would be galling. But at the same time, it is important to recall he's going to be in prison for the rest of his life. The family does not have to worry about the possibility of appeals and what all that might mean. You don't have to go through the trial where very, very strong case. You never know what a jury might do. Certainly there have been many recent cases where people have been surprised by jury verdicts that don't seem to be tied to the actual evidence. So I understand the emotional reaction. I still think this was the right thing to do.

Anya Cain (18:00)

I completely agree. And I mean, again, I know the Gonzalez family is very upset about this. This is Kaylee Gonzalez's family. They've really slammed the prosecutors on this and you know, again, I tend to be like, well, victims families are entitled to their feelings on things. But I think to see members of the public reiterating attacks on the prosecutors in this case, I don't think that's appropriate. I just don't. And also, the Gonzalez family is not the only family that lost someone in this situation. I've seen that the Chapin family have expressed support for this plea deal. So, I mean, there's a nature of compromise. Not everyone is always going to get what they want. But I think we're well beyond that. Giving that these four wonderful young people were murdered. And, you know, it's just you're kind of trying to mitigate and do what's right in this situation. As true crime people, we all know that scary things can and do happen all the time, frankly, when you're least expecting it. Feeling safe at home is very important to Kevin and I. But in this day and age, I need more than just a good lock. I need a security company that makes it their mission to protect me and my family.

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Anya Cain (20:25)

The prosecutors don't work for the victim's families. In an ideal world, you would have prosecutors working hand in hand. And everybody's happy when it comes to both the prosecutors and the victim's families. But the the prosecutors are not the police and law enforcement officers and the victims families are not their clients. The people of Idaho and the people of Lato county are the people they're representing. Right.

Kevin Greenlee (20:51)

Yes.

Anya Cain (20:52)

So, you know, it's, it's not required that every decision ultimately they have kind of a balancing act to do. And I, I think this, I think this secures justice for these four college students while also being, frankly, the, the practical best option and the one that leads to the less possibility for Bryan Coburger possibly making more mayhem down the road.

Kevin Greenlee (21:24)

I believe this. What happened today was justice.

Anya Cain (21:28)

Absolutely. You know, I think, I, I, I don't know. I'm like, looking at the statement that Gonzalez family, like, release, and I just, I, I, you can tell how angry they are, and I think you have to just, we have to understand that this is going to be a situation that would make anyone angry. You know, this is a situation where they're hurting and they're going through something in a very public sphere.

Kevin Greenlee (22:02)

And I have nothing but, I have nothing but sympathy.

Anya Cain (22:06)

Yeah. For them, you know, But I don't think the hate that they're directing towards Thompson. Prosecuting attorney Bill Thompson of Lato county is appropriate, frankly. And I also, I mean, it seems like they were the ones to basically call on people to reach out to hip hop, which. No, like, like, that's not appropriate. It's, I think they have to, I think it's, it's good for people to redirect some of the energy here into perhaps memorializing and remembering these four young people. And what they, you know, what we're missing out on by the fact that they're not in the world anymore.

Kevin Greenlee (22:46)

And one of the best things about this plea deal in my mind, is that it means after a couple of weeks, we don't have to think about Kohberger anymore. No, he's gonna be gone.

Anya Cain (22:56)

I would encourage people not to. I mean, there's a, Again, there's a lot of curiosity, why did he do it? And I, I don't know. I think at some point, like, do we care? Like, isn't it just, like some weird. Isn't it? Very. It doesn't have the whiff of something that's like, just a problem with women that went too far or, oh, I want to be like the smart serial killer type and blah, blah, blah. And it's like, you know, again, like, aren't we kind of giving him what we want when we kind of just like, get really wrapped up in that? Wouldn't it be.

Kevin Greenlee (23:26)

And get fascinated with it?

Anya Cain (23:27)

Yeah. Wouldn't it be better to just kind.

Kevin Greenlee (23:29)

Of say, here's, here's my question, which is, is there any reason he could give that would be good enough that would make us say, oh, I understand it now. No, I don't think so. I. I don't think so.

Anya Cain (23:40)

And I'm going to tell you this. A trial can definitely be a place for a lot of details to come out. So, I mean, that's, that's absolutely true. So people saying, oh, I wish there was a trial, totally understand that. And I agree. I would hope that since the case is closed, that some details could come out just through things like records, requests or interviews. So that would be my hope. But I agree a trial can be a great opportunity for additional things to come out. But I will say this. We sat through the Richard Allen trial in Delphi and we wrote a book on the case and we dug into everything we could, and I still don't have a detailed play by play about how every single thing happened and why every single thing happened that can answer every possible question. Because the fact of the matter is that one person knows all of that, and that person is Richard Allen, who is huddled in a prison cell somewhere under kind of layers and layers of self pity and wallowing and support from stupid people who are fans of a child killer. And he's not really motivated to answer some of those questions. So, you know, at the end of the day, if someone's not motivated to tell the truth, if someone's not motivated to be truthful, if someone's not motivated to come forward, and even if they do come forward, are you really sure about this? You have a lot of cases where somebody comes forward and is essentially victim blaming. Oh, yeah, I did this. But it was because they screamed or it was because they were trying to run away. Like, I wouldn't have killed them otherwise. But so, I mean, like, let's really assess the value of what Coburger's words would actually be. I mean, he's been arguing this whole time that he's innocent. So, I mean, obviously that wasn't true. So, I mean, what, what are we going to get from him? Again? I get it. I'm curious, too. I'd love to know some of this, but I just, I would really encourage people. We very, we very well may not ever get all the answers. Regardless of trial or no trial.

Kevin Greenlee (25:43)

He's been arguing that he's innocent. At least that's what his attorneys have been arguing. Today, though, in court, he was asked a series of questions which he responded had basically, yes, no Questions. And he acknowledged through his answers today that he did these crimes.

Anya Cain (26:01)

It was really remarkable to hear him just say, like, guilty. Yes, yes, yes. It was like he. He sounded very normal, sounded very, you know, matter of fact, whatever that means. He's wearing khaki pants, a grayish tie, white shirt. At one point, he kind of awkwardly stood up. And then Hitler's like, thanks for the sign of respect, but you can stay seated. He clarified that he's not under the influence of alcohol or drugs. He's thinking clearly. He understands the consequences of him pleading guilty.

Kevin Greenlee (26:30)

He's happy with his defense attorneys. He understands what this plea deal means. And then he went through it with the judge and essentially said, yes, I'm guilty of all these things. I did it.

Anya Cain (26:43)

And we also heard from Bill Thompson, again, the lady county prosecutor. He went through the. Basically the state's proffer of what? You know, it's not all the, like, it's not everything, but it's like a broad, high level summary of what they feel the big pieces of evidence against Coburger are.

Kevin Greenlee (27:01)

And again, that's important because you want the judge to understand why the plea is happening is you want not only for the defendant to acknowledge, yes, I'm guilty, but you want the judge to have an understanding on the record. Here's the evidence the state would have presented. So the. So the plea is backed up by evidence.

Anya Cain (27:23)

Yeah. And, you know, I told you, I think I've made jokes to you, Kevin, and I may have made jokes in our Facebook group, like, prepare to see all the pro burgers melt down over some of this. And I've seen that, and I've seen a lot of like, well, maybe he's guilty, but the state really bungled the investigation. I don't think they did. I think they did a good job. I think they had a lot of evidence against him, was a strong case.

Kevin Greenlee (27:47)

Sounds like they got the right man.

Anya Cain (27:50)

Oh, but, Kevin, you can be guilty and still framed. I mean, it's just like, okay, like, cope harder. You know, I don't, like, I don't know why we always have to do this. And, you know, one person on Reddit saying that, oh, the case was bungled does not make it so. Like, especially if you really can't cite anything relevant to that. I think they did a very robust investigation that was very much clear to me from Prosecutor Thompson's statements. You know, is any investigation perfect? No. Does that. Should we expect that? No, I. Should we expect, like, competence and thoroughness? Yes. And I think we got that Here.

Kevin Greenlee (28:27)

Yeah, every single investigation through all of history is done by human beings and human beings are not perfect and make mistakes. So you can find mistakes of some kind in any investigation. Well, wouldn't have been better if they had done this or this or. But the thing to ask yourself is, are these mistakes, these inevitable mistakes, are they significant? Do they, they affect the result? And certainly in this case and maybe most cases, the answer is no.

Anya Cain (28:58)

The evidence he went over, went into Co Burger purchasing an Amazon gift card in March 2022. He was residing at his parents place in Pennsylvania at the time. He also bought, then bought a knife, a sheath, a sharpener on Amazon. At the end of that June, he moved from Pennsylvania to Pullman, Washington to pursue a PhD at Washington State University, which is of course in Pullman, which is right across the state line from Moscow, Idaho. He said that beginning in July 9, 2022, Coburger began connecting to the cell tower that covered 1122 King Road where of course the victims were murdered. Thompson was correct to point out that this is a densely populated area with a lot of college related occupants living around there. So it's not like it's like tying him to that specific residence, but it's bringing him to that area. And then July 9th through November 7th, 2022, there's a number of 23 times he's his cell phone is hitting on that particular tower late at night, early into the morning. They do not have any direct evidence of, they do not have any evidence of direct contact with either the home or the occupants. But again, we're putting him in the area. August 22, 2022, Lato County Sheriff's Deputy Darren Duke pulls him over around 11pm west side of Moscow. It's a traffic stop. They get a sense of his car, they get a sense of his license plate which is Pennsylvania at the time night of the murders, leaves the Pullman residence. Phone is turned off, remains off for hours and hours. Video surveillance of businesses around Moscow and Pullman show a car matching the description of his car going towards there this light Elantra circling that neighborhood and stops at an intersection, does a U turn. The defendant's car goes back and is believed to have parked behind and above the King Road residence that he got through the residence through a sliding kitchen door. He went up to the third floor with a knife, murdered Madison and Kaylee and then left, went downstairs, encounters Xander Kernodle who was on the second floor and kills her and then goes into her room and kills her boyfriend Ethan Chapin, who is sleeping There leaves the knife sheath next to Madison. And the snap of that knife sheath has a single source of male DNA. That obviously is a huge tip. And Zanner Kernodle had been awake at the time she'd gotten that door dash order. It's just really, it's so tragic. It seems like he was targeting either Madison or Kaylee, and then Zanna just happened to encountered him. And just very tragic. Thompson said that each victim sustained multiple knife wounds. No evidence of any sexual assault, and the two other roommates survived despite one of them encountering him. He drives through back roads to get back to Washington, doesn't go on Highway 95 because his car would have been picked up by surveillance. And at some point goes later on, goes to the Lewis and Clark Valley, where there's a lot of rivers, this confluence of rivers there Also, another serial killer case has been unsolved associated with that valley. But, yeah, so he leaves, you know, at the end of the semester, he leaves, goes home for the holidays. FBI agents, they end up becoming aware of him through this DNA. FBI agents, or they end up becoming aware of him and they kind of like get his father's DNA from trash. And, you know, we all kind of know where it goes from there. Thompson described his workplace and his, like, his apartment as, quote, spartan would be a kind characterization. Not a lot of stuff there. His car had clearly been, like, vigorously cleaned. And all of that was found six to eight weeks after the murders. So at the end, it was interesting. Thompson. I don't know if you got this sense, but it did seem like Thompson was crying.

Kevin Greenlee (32:55)

It sounded like that when he was mentioning the victim's names at the end.

Anya Cain (32:58)

Yeah, he seemed to be welling up and getting emotional. And, you know, I imagine for this, you know, prosecutor's office and for everyone who worked on this case, it's pretty heavy emotional burden. So based on all this, Hitler said that he found that there was a factual basis. He went through each count individually with CO Burger, and he just kept on pleading guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty. And Hitler accepted it and directed it. That should be entered. So what's next?

Kevin Greenlee (33:31)

What's next is the sentencing. And one interesting wrinkle there is that typically when someone faces sentencing, there is a certain process which is followed, including the preparation of a presentencing report, which can take a lot of time. But in this instance, there's not going to be any presentencing report. Neither side wants that. I think everybody has a good idea that the sentence is going to be the maximum sentence. So because of that the timetable is accelerated. And so the sentencing is just going to be in a couple of weeks as opposed to a couple of months. I believe it's going to happen was the week of July 22.

Anya Cain (34:19)

It's going to happen July 23. And Hitler said that if, for some reason Thompson said that he believes that they can do it in a day if they start early. And he suggested 8:30. Hitler went with 9am and Hitler said that for some reason they run over because he wants everyone to have their chance to speak. They can go into July 24th.

Kevin Greenlee (34:42)

So the people who are going to be speaking are going to include people, family and maybe friends of the victims who want to tell the court how this crime has affected him so that the judge can have that information before he imposes a sentence. Which means, frankly, it will likely be a very emotionally difficult hearing to watch because we're going to see a lot of people talking about a very significant loss.

Anya Cain (35:13)

Yeah, these four young people should have been, should be living their lives. I mean, they should be graduating, they should be getting jobs, having families. It's not, it's not fair that they're not here anymore and that Bryan Kohberger is, you know, their, their lives were worth a great deal. And it's, it's, it's tragic. It's really tragic. And so we're going to hear the heartbreak and the emotion and the anger, I imagine. I note that Hitler said that Kohberger's ability to wear civilian clothes going forward is revoked. He's going to be in prison garb. He is, has pled Guilchney. So it's, it's different now. When Thompson asked Hitler if the trial date would be vacated, I noted that Hitler sort of derisively chuckled and said, you know, yes, the trial date will be vacated. You, you know, this is a, this is a judge who's done some high profile cases before. And I could, you know, you could tell that he was going to do what he was going to do, but he was also like, I think, you know, it was going to be a lot. So I think they're, you know, I think there's, there's maybe some relief there or some kind of like, okay, at least this is wrapped up. The defense waived pre trial investigation. I imagine they have a lot of perhaps what they feel could be mitigating just through, I mean, like, there's no mitigation at this point. I mean, he's stipulated that he's not going to argue for a lenient sentence.

Kevin Greenlee (36:39)

Usually a pre sentence Report, the defendant is trying to. To argue for a more lenient sentence. He's not going to do that. So what's the point?

Anya Cain (36:47)

We've heard about some of the negative reactions from the families to this plea deal. My understanding is that the Mogan family is also in support of what. What's going on here. He. I know Ben Mogan, Madison's father, said, quote, to cbs, quote, we could actually put this behind us and not have these future dates and future things that we don't want to have to be at, that we shouldn't have to be at, that. Have to do with this terrible person. We get to just think about the rest of our lives and have to figure out how to do it without Maddie and without the rest of the kids, end quote. So, again, like, I think we can be compassionate towards the Gonsalves family and the Kernodle family, who are not happy with this, but we can also remember that, you know, families are rarely in lockstep in cases like this where there are multiple victims, different people want different things. And ultimately, you know, it's not. It's not necessarily the wrong call for a prosecutor's office to make a decision like this. It's not necessarily them being unkind or unethical or incompetent. It may be something that people disagree with, but I think there's a very strong factual reason and practical reason and reason for justice to do it this way. And I think, you know, we can say that family's feelings are valid, but I don't think the public should be trying to stir up hate against any. Any figure in this case that's doing their jobs.

Kevin Greenlee (38:23)

I agree completely.

Anya Cain (38:24)

Whether that's a prosecutor or a defense attorney. You know, I. I don't. I don't think that's appropriate. I really don't. I'll be very interested to see the sentencing hearing, though.

Kevin Greenlee (38:37)

It'll be very interesting indeed. Yeah, as I say, very, very sad.

Anya Cain (38:42)

Oh, yeah. Sentence. Sentencing hearings are difficult to watch, as you said. It's. It's hard and it's. It's just hard to see, but it's really necessary. And I think it can give families a really good chance to sum up for everyone what they've been through.

Kevin Greenlee (39:00)

And it's very empowering if someone took the life of someone you care about. It is very empowering to stand up in court and look them in the eye, if you wish, and tell them exactly what you think of them.

Anya Cain (39:16)

I remember when we were at the Randy Small sentencing, he'd killed Bob Adair. In Brown County, Indiana. And Bob Adair's daughter told this guy who shot her father's head, head off with a shotgun just a really horrible. Over, like a stupid property dispute. She looked at him and said, you know, like, basically, you're. You're pond scum. For some reason. That always stuck with me. And, like, I think, I think the judge kind of admonished her to tone it down because she was cursing a lot at one point. And I don't blame her. Like, that would be me. But I, I just remember, like, it was just this outpouring of rage and it was, it was, it was like, you know, good for her, honestly.

Kevin Greenlee (39:55)

Yeah, exactly.

Anya Cain (39:55)

He was pond scum. And this guy Coburger, I don't even know what to make of him. I mean, just pathetic waste of a person, but. And, you know, I just. It's. It's tragic. But anyways, anything else you wanted to say?

Kevin Greenlee (40:12)

I think not.

Anya Cain (40:14)

All right, well, we'll wrap it up and we'll be following any further developments in this case. But thanks, everybody for listening.

Kevin Greenlee (40:20)

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

Anya Cain (40:40)

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com/murder sheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

Kevin Greenlee (41:03)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.

Anya Cain (41:15)

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We're obsessed with our Quint's pieces. Is that fair to say?

Kevin Greenlee (41:40)

That's fair to say.

Anya Cain (41:41)

What is Quint?

Kevin Greenlee (41:41)

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Anya Cain (41:47)

They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors. And you're just going to get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles, but we wanted to update. So we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful 100% European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambry stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses because like I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.

Kevin Greenlee (42:42)

I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.

Anya Cain (42:52)

For anyone who is interested in learning more about the, the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive oil. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.

Kevin Greenlee (43:06)

And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably, if I convince her, take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.

Anya Cain (43:14)

Oh, I got a beret too because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret. And yeah, I, I just really. Quint is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things. Make sure the sizing's right for you. And it's just a great deal for murder sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's quinece.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet you know, Anya, we are in.

Kevin Greenlee (44:02)

This true crime space. It's such A difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't, like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.

Anya Cain (44:19)

Yes.

Kevin Greenlee (44:20)

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