The University of Idaho Murders: The June 18, 2025 Hearing

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet - "The University of Idaho Murders: The June 18, 2025 Hearing"

Introduction

In this episode of Murder Sheet, hosts Áine Cain, a journalist, and Kevin Greenlee, an attorney, delve into the intricacies of the ongoing University of Idaho murders case. Released on June 18, 2025, this episode provides an in-depth analysis of the recent hearing concerning the accused, Brian Kohberger, and explores the legal strategies, challenges, and broader implications surrounding the case.

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1. Overview of the University of Idaho Murders

The University of Idaho murders case involves the tragic deaths of four young students: Zanner Kernodle, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, and Kaylee Gonzalez, all residents of Moscow, Idaho. The case gained national attention when Brian Kohberger, a PhD student from Washington State University in Pullman, Washington, was arrested and charged with the quadruple homicide. As the trial looms, the case remains a focal point of true crime discussions and legal debates.

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2. The June 18, 2025 Hearing: Continuance Motion

On June 18, 2025, a pivotal hearing took place regarding whether Kohberger's trial would be continued or proceed as scheduled. The primary contention revolves around the defense's request to delay the trial, a motion opposed vehemently by the prosecution.

a. Defense’s Arguments for Continuance

Attorney Ann Taylor, representing the defense, presented several reasons advocating for a continuance:

• Protection of Defendant’s Rights: Taylor emphasized the necessity to protect Kohberger's right to a fair trial, citing due process and effective counsel. She stated, "We would submit that it's the court's responsibility to assess this motion to continue with heightened due process that's required in death penalty cases" (Timestamp: 08:07).

• Volume and Complexity of Discovery: The defense highlighted the overwhelming amount of discovery material, amounting to 68 terabytes, and numerous requests for additional information. Taylor pointed out, "They have a lot of discovery to go through. They have 68 terabytes...23 requests for additional discovery over the course of two years" (Timestamp: 09:50).

• Media Influence and Fair Trial Concerns: With extensive media coverage, including a significant Dateline episode, Taylor argued that media leaks could prejudice potential jurors. She mentioned, "The Dateline episode wasn't just a one-time deal back in May that continues to be talked about" (Timestamp: 25:47).

b. Prosecution’s Opposition

Represented by Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson and attorney Joshua Hurwit, the prosecution countered the defense's motion:

• Sufficiency of Current Preparations: Hurwit argued that the defense already had substantial resources, including 55 mitigation witnesses and 130 exhibits, ensuring they are prepared for trial without delay. "They can keep working on it throughout the trial" (Timestamp: 38:40).

• Strategic Delay Tactics: The prosecution suggested that the defense's motion was a strategy to delay proceedings unnecessarily. Hurwit stated, "What seems to be the strategy here is to delay" (Timestamp: 38:40).

• Timeliness and Victims' Rights: Emphasizing the victims' rights to a timely justice process, Hurwit asserted, "Those cannot be overwritten by the victim's rights provision" (Timestamp: 23:15).

c. Judge Steven Hippler’s Stance

Judge Hippler, overseeing the case, was known for his reluctance to grant endless continuances. During the hearing, he expressed the intent to deliberate on the motion promptly. Anya Cain noted, "Judge Hippler comes in with... he's going to take the matter under advisement. He's going to try to get his opinion out in short order" (Timestamp: 40:31).

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3. Discovery Issues and Media Leaks

A significant aspect of the hearing was the discussion surrounding discovery materials and unauthorized media leaks.

a. Defense’s Discovery Challenges

The defense team faced challenges in obtaining necessary records and interviews:

• Extensive Discovery Requests: With 23 additional discovery requests and seven motions to compel over two years, the defense highlighted difficulties in accessing complete and timely information.

• Need for Additional Experts: Taylor indicated that certain red flags in the evidence required further expert analysis, complicating the defense’s preparation.

b. Dateline Media Leak

A contentious point was the airing of a Dateline episode that purportedly revealed critical information about the case:

• Potential Source of Leaks: Both hosts discussed the uncertainty surrounding the origin of the leaks, speculating whether they originated from the prosecution or other parties involved.

  • Kevin Greenlee remarked, "If it did indeed come from the prosecution side of the fence, and that's a big if..." (Timestamp: 27:23).

• Impact on Jury Pool: The leaks risked prejudicing jurors who might form opinions based on information not admissible in court. Anya Cain emphasized, "...potential jurors are being exposed to it and perhaps being poisoned in their minds against Mr. Kohberger based on these leaks" (Timestamp: 28:07).

• Defense’s Position on Media Influence: The defense argued that such leaks compromise the integrity of the trial, making it challenging to ensure an impartial jury.

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4. Mitigating Factors and Death Penalty Considerations

Given that this case involves the death penalty, the defense focused on presenting mitigating factors to potentially influence sentencing:

• Autism Spectrum Disorder: Taylor advocated that Kohberger's autism should be considered a mitigating factor, arguing against the imposition of the death penalty. "They're saying basically he shouldn't be subject to the death penalty because of the mitigating factor of autism" (Timestamp: 14:48).

• Legal and Ethical Implications: The debate over whether autism qualifies as a legitimate mitigating factor underscored the complexities of capital punishment cases.

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5. Jury Selection Challenges

The defense raised concerns about the current jury selection process, citing:

• Inadequate Time for Selecting an Impartial Jury: With extensive media coverage and potential biases, ensuring a fair and unbiased jury became increasingly difficult.

• Impact of Broad Case Publicity: The high-profile nature of the case meant that many jurors might already hold preconceived notions about Kohberger's guilt, undermining the principle of an impartial trial.

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6. Current Status and Future Outlook

As the hearing concluded, both sides presented their final arguments without reaching a consensus:

• No Immediate Decision: Judge Hippler indicated that he would deliberate on the motion and render a decision shortly, encouraging all parties to proceed with the current trial schedule unless a continuance is unequivocally justified.

• Upcoming Developments: The defense plans to introduce a forthcoming book and docuseries that might shed more light on the case, potentially influencing public perception and the trial's trajectory.

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Conclusion

The June 18, 2025 hearing in the University of Idaho murders case highlighted the delicate balance between ensuring a fair trial for the accused and upholding the rights and timely justice for the victims' families. With ongoing debates over discovery, media influence, and mitigating factors, the case underscores the challenges faced in high-profile legal proceedings. As the trial date approaches, both the defense and prosecution continue to navigate the complexities of the criminal justice system, with Judge Hippler's forthcoming decision on the continuance motion poised to shape the next steps in this gripping true crime saga.

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Notable Quotes:

• Anya Cain (Timestamp: 08:07): "We would submit that it's the court's responsibility to assess this motion to continue with heightened due process that's required in death penalty cases."

• Kevin Greenlee (Timestamp: 25:47): "We don't know for certain where they came from, what side they came from. People speculated that it must have come from the prosecution..."

• Anya Cain (Timestamp: 28:27): "If it is on the state side, that is extraordinarily troubling..."

• Joshua Hurwit, Prosecution (Timestamp: 38:40): "They can keep working on it throughout the trial."

• Anya Cain (Timestamp: 40:31): "Judge Hippler comes in with... he's going to take the matter under advisement."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from the Murder Sheet episode focusing on the University of Idaho murders hearing, providing listeners and non-listeners alike with a clear understanding of the case's current standing and the legal maneuvers at play.

Transcript

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[Anya Cain]

Available at pocket hose.com terms Content warning this episode may contain some discussion of murder. So today on the Murder Sheet, we watched the June 18, 2025 hearing in the University of Idaho murders. This case, of course, centers around the murders of four young people, four young University of Idaho students living in Moscow, Idaho. Their names were Zanner Kernodle, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan and Kaylee Gonzalez. That case was kind of thrust into the headlines. And then a PhD student from Washington State University in Pullman, Washington, pretty nearby, named Brian Kohberger was arrested and charged with that quadruple homicide. That trial is pending for this summer, at least as of right now. We're going to talk about a hearing where that was sort of thrown into question or, you know, that was discussed by the parties. And it's all about whether or not the trial will be continued or pushed back.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's get to it.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. My name is Anya Cain.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm a journalist and I'm Kevin Greenlee.

[Anya Cain]

I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the murder sheet and this is.

[Anya Cain]

The University of Idaho the June 18, 2025 hearing it okay, so before we get started, let's talk about the central discussion point in today's hearing that was whether or not Coburger's trial will be continued. Can you just talk a little bit about what a, what a trial being continued means? We kind of got into in the intro, but let's just confirm it, make sure I wasn't getting that completely wrong.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, basically, a trial being continued means pretty much what it sounds like. Instead of a trial happening when it is scheduled for whatever reason, it will be delayed and will happen at a later time. And normally in the course of our criminal justice system is not the least bit unusual for people on one side or the other to ask for a trial to be continued to for various reasons, maybe great reasons, maybe not great reasons. What was the reason that we were talking about delaying this one?

[Anya Cain]

Well, before I get into that, I will get into a little bit about the record around this. A lot of the points that lead defense counsel Ann Taylor made in today's hearing were also made in the filing that her team filed on June 16, which was defendants reply to the state's opposition to defendants motion to continue. And the the state's opposition to defendant's motion to continue was filed on June 5. So there's been a bit of back and forth and as we see, the parties are opposed on this. The defense wants to continue. The state is saying no. The state is represented by Lato County Prosecutor Bill Thompson, along with his deputy Ashley Jennings. And actually the attorney who was appearing today to discuss the state side was Josh Hurwit. So that's, I mean, and Taylor was presenting the defensive side. So Ann Taylor made a couple of different points. She started out and you know, the, the goal is to convince Judge Steven Hippler, who is now the judge on this case, that they want to continue. And honestly, I think the defense may have a bit of an uphill battle here. The reason for that is because Hitler in the past has made statements that sort of indicate that he wants this to be done. He does not want to delay this endlessly. So I think in order to convince a judge in that position, yeah, we want this continued, you're going to have to give some sound legal reasoning. Is that fair to say?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's fair to say.

[Anya Cain]

Like you want, you know, as you mentioned, continuing continuances are not unusual. But at the same time, you don't want things to be delayed or dragged on endlessly Is that fair to say? Is that also kind of the.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, you don't want people just to artificially drag out the process forever. That's not in the interest of justice. On the other hand, you don't want to rush people to a trial that they're not prepared for. So much of the criminal justice system is just this very, very complicated balancing act of different interests.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. So in this situation, Ann, Taylor Swift said that the continuance would be necessary to protect CO Burger's right to a fair trial, his due process rights, his right to confront accusers, his right to effective counsel. I mean, a lot of it was her basically saying, we won't be ready, we won't do as good of a job. And she noted, again, this defense team has been from almost the jump, banging the drum about they have a lot of discovery to go through. They have 68 terabytes. She says it's a huge amount. They filed 23 requests for additional discovery over the course of two years, seven motions to compel. If you've been following our coverage, you probably will recall a lot of the defense complaints has been about there's too much discovery. And no, they didn't give us this, and they should have. And, you know, I think there's some question about the merits of some of their arguments around that. And the response to a lot of it might be like, well, it's your job, kind of deal with it at some point. But at the same time, you can understand that that is an enormous amount of discovery to go through. And, you know, we can. You can understand why they're bringing that up.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Absolutely.

[Anya Cain]

She directed the court to go back to the defense's second motion to compel, to go back to sort of May and June 2023. And, you know, kind of like, like, look at that as far as a template for some of these discovery things. And has said that, you know, them going towards trial at this point is more about their dedication of complying with court orders rather than them feeling like this is the best lawyering they can do. And this is what Taylor said as far as what she believes Judge Hippler's responsibilities are. Quote, we would submit that it's the court's responsibility to assess this motion to continue with heightened due process that's required in death penalty cases, end quote. She cited some cases, noting sort of the death penalty is different. You can imagine it's pretty self evident why that would be. If you are going to be executing someone at the end of the day after. After an outcome that sort of, you know, I, I heightens the risks, heightens the stakes. You know, it makes it so that you really want to make sure everything is correct and right. You don't want to be looking back years after someone's executing and saying, wait, his rights were really violated in that way. So it's, it's, you know, because you can't. There's no, there's no remedy. Then the guy is dead. So, you know, it makes sense that they'd be bringing that up. And she noted that the discovery is still ongoing. They received discovery this week and she noted that she had not reviewed it yet. Can I ask you, Kevin, in a case like this, is it shocking to you that discovery is coming in at this late date?

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's far from ideal, but given the complexity of this case and all the ongoing work being done on the case, it's not shocking.

[Anya Cain]

Not at all. That's. That's incredibly common. Also, we don't know what this is. She didn't specify. Oh, we got this. So it could be, it's also not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like the trial is next week.

[Anya Cain]

It could be as simple as Bryan Coburger's making a call to his family and that's taken in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

To, you know, and then submitted as discovery to the fence as well. So I, it's not, you know, there's. These cases are kind of almost in a way, like, when it's going on, they're kind of like living, breathing things in a way where they kind of, you know, stuff keeps on getting generated really up until the last moment, maybe sometimes, you know, during. That's not really appropriate because that doesn't give anyone time to deal with it. But it's, it's not. I think real life investigations don't normally fully comply with what you would want. You'd want to, okay, nothing significant happened after this point, but you can't control for that. And she noted that there have been red flags. And what she meant by this, I believe was her definition was sort of these issues are, you know, the issues that could come up that could mean a lot to their experts who are going to testify, but they need to fully investigate them and may require additional experts. One big thing that she was talking about here that I was sort of picking up on was we're not. Just because it's a death penalty case, we're not just talking about the sort of trial phase or the fact finding phase of, like, guilt or innocence. She's also talking about the mitigation phase and the penalty phase. Can you talk a little bit about penalty phase of a death penalty case and like, what that sort of means.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, basically, she is contemplating, and I'm going to try to say this very clearly, the penalty phase only becomes relevant if she loses, if, in fact, Kohberger is convicted. And so you might say, oh, by even talking about this at all, she's acknowledging that she expects to lose. And that's not true because certainly if you are a professional, you try to prepare yourself for anything that might happen. So no matter what happens in court, you are prepared to deal with it. Similarly, I would imagine that the prosecution in this case is prepared and working on how would we cross examine Kohberger if he goes on the standard? That doesn't mean they. They truly expect him to go on the stand. They just know there's a theoretical chance he might. And if he does, you want to be prepared for it, and maybe all that work is wasted. So, similarly, she wants to kind of plan for some of these things that might happen if he is convicted, but that doesn't mean he will be convicted. And did I answer your question at all?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And I think that the mitigation factors, that's where the stuff where they're talking about, like autism spectrum disorder and the debate over that, that's where that comes in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

They're saying basically he shouldn't be subject to the death penalty because of the mitigating factor of autism.

[Anya Cain]

Right. And, you know, the debate over whether that even is a mitigating factor. So like it. So that's where that comes in. And I'm going to quickly kind of just read through, because this was actually a really good summary of kind of what she said. I'm going to read through the points in the final filing and. And just kind of like go over the high points. These were reasons why it should be continued. One, compliance with the Court's scheduling order does not fulfill Mr. Coburger's right to effective assistance of counsel in a capital case. So basically, we're going to be rushed and we're not going to do a good job and we're not going to be effective. Two, Mr. Cope, is that actually back up? Is that normal for an attorney to be like, we're not. We might not be effective here?

[Kevin Greenlee]

What do you mean?

[Anya Cain]

Like, is that. I mean, like. I mean, I. Ann Taylor has a good reputation in Idaho. It seems like a very capable attorney. Is it unusual for her to be basically saying, like, I don't know, we might not be so effective if this trial date goes on?

[Kevin Greenlee]

You're just trying to make the strongest case you can and preserve all of the issues.

[Anya Cain]

You can pardon my blunt language, but even if that means basically saying, like, we might kind of suck, you know, like, I mean, is that like, it just seems kind of like, whoa, okay. I mean, yeah. I mean, as the, as this judge has pointed out, you know, she's taken on another death penalty case. So he's kind of like, are you that strapped for time here? But, you know, she's definitely got a lot to do. Two, Mr. Kohberger's case has been pending for less than two and one half years. That is a short duration compared to other capital cases. Put a pin in that. We're going to get back to it later because Judge Hippler had something to say about that. Three, this Capitol case is extraordinary both in complexity and media attention. We talked a bit about the complexity, we talked a bit about this huge amount of discovery they have to wade through. But also this is probably one of the more followed cases in the national media at this point. It's up there, even the world. Yeah, it's definitely gotten a lot of attention. So she's definitely right to point that out. And when you have a lot of media attention, one thing that you might worry about is are you going to get a fair trial? So that's one thing. Four, the recent Dateline episode of Media Leaks are uniquely prejudicial and distinct from ordinary media coverage. Let's put a pin in that because I know you and I want to talk about that later. And they brought it up at the hearing, too. Five, the current jury selection process does not allow enough time to select a fair and impartial jury under the circumstances. So here we're also getting into the jury selection. Obviously important to select people who do not have a made up mind on the case. Either way, you don't want to get one of the pro burgers, although frankly, I don't know how many there would be in Idaho. I guess we'll see. You don't want to get somebody who's just like, well, he looks weird, so he's guilty. So I'm just going to go with that. You want to get people who are going to listen to the evidence and be impartial. That does not mean you need people who never heard of this thing happening before. You do not need a jury who's like, ignorant of this happening. Right? Like, you can get someone who's like, yeah, I heard these four kids were murdered, but you just don't want someone who's like sleuthing it and, like, really getting into it and watching all the coverage and, you know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we often talk. The example we often cite is, like, football. I don't really follow football. I'm aware we have a football team in town. I might be aware if we won or lost a particular important game like the super bowl or what have you, but I'm not so emotionally invested in it that I would. Wouldn't be able to change my mind about a particular play or whatever. So you can know about something as long as you're not emotionally invested in it. As long as you're open to new evidence changing your mind, then it's fine. And we use football as an example because a lot of us who follow true crime, we really know all of these details. We really know everything about these cases. We do get emotionally invested in them, just as some people get emotionally invested in football. And it can be kind of hard for us to imagine, oh, how can this person be aware of, like the Delphi case, but not care about it the way I care about it? And what you have to remember is just think of something like football. The odds are maybe you're not emotionally invested in football, but certainly there are people who are emotionally invested in that.

[Anya Cain]

And you might know who won the super bowl or who won a specific game or. Or, you know, oh, this controversy happened around football. But you probably don't know enough to really, like, have made up your mind in a significant way.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yes. If that makes sense. And I. I know Taylor Swift lost the super bowl this year.

[Anya Cain]

She didn't. Oh, my gosh.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But go on.

[Anya Cain]

No. Can you just get out of here? What are you doing now? You're making me cough. This is what you're doing. Um, so. Yeah, so that. So that's. That's important. Six. This is number six in Taylor's points in her. Not Taylor Swift and Taylor. This is what you do. This is what you do. You're sitting over there with your little jokes.

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[Anya Cain]

The U.S. department of Health and Human Services and the Ad Council. 6. The ABA guidelines define the prevailing professional norms for effective assistance and are statutorily adopted in Idaho. And there's a difference between the state and the defense here. The state's like, we don't need to consider the ABA guidelines for the appointment and performance of defense counsel and death penalty cases. And then they cited a couple cases about that and the defense is like, no, we need to have those. I guess.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

7. A continuance is necessary to enforce Mr. Coburger's state and federal constitutional rights. And these cannot be overwritten, ridden by the victim's rights provision. And one of the reasons that they brought that up is the state said the victims have a constitutional right to a timely disposition. And the defense is saying that cannot override the defendant's constitutional rights to a fair trial and effective assistance of counsel under amendments 6 and 14. So, you know, and he's saying, they're all saying, quote, those are not in tension with the interests of victims. They're essential to ensuring that an outcome is fair and reliable, end quote. Otherwise, in other words, you want to make sure the right person goes away. Otherwise the victims, you know, rights are kind of being ignored in a different way. Right. So yeah, that's kind of the, the what's coming from the, the order. And a lot of that was touched upon in some way by, by Taylor at the hearing. And they, she cited some interesting things. She said they've had numerous challenges gathering records and interviewing collateral witnesses. They want to do interviews with other family members other than just his parents. They want to do interviews with people and get educational and medical records, past treatment records. And she said that the date, quote, the Dateline episode, this is what they have to say. And maybe we can kind of get into the Dateline a bit here. Quote, the Dateline episode wasn't just a one time deal back in May that continues to be talked about, end quote. And I agree with that. What she's saying here is essentially Dateline isn't just Something that happened, and it's like, oops. And then everyone forgot about it. The information put out by this Dateline episode that covered the Idaho murders case and had a lot of, like, revelatory and possibly explosive information about, you know, evidence pointing to CO Burger's guilt that has had, you know, reverberations around the case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Let's talk about those leaks. And the first thing I think is worth saying about those leaks, number one, is we don't know for certain where they came from, what side they came from. People speculated that it must have come from the prosecution. Maybe it did. I don't know. So that's the first thing to point out. I do want to say you and I, Anya, when we covered the Delphi case, we were very critical of the defense in that case, when some protected discovery materials were leaked to the public. And it's very important to be intellectually consistent. So I want to stress that a leak of this nature is really. It's really disastrous potentially. And if it did indeed come from the prosecution side of the fence, and that's a big if. But if it did, in some ways, a leak from the prosecution is arguably worse than a leak from the defense, because the prosecution is the state. They have the power of the state. They have the power to take away a defendant's freedom and in some cases, a defendant's life. And if, even with all that power, they then go further and try to stack the deck with selective leaks, that is something I would find extraordinarily troubling.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we also talked in this episode, you mentioned the problems caused by the fact that this case is being covered so extensively in the media. The problem caused by that is a lot of stuff gets revealed to the public that maybe wouldn't be considered reliable evidence in a court of law. And we want the jury to just base their opinions on what is determined to be reliable and presented in a court of law. And it's entirely possible that some of this devastating information that was leaked to DATELINE may not meet the standards to even be introduced in court.

[Anya Cain]

Yes, that's critical.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so because of that, potential jurors are being exposed to it and perhaps being poisoned in their minds against Mr. Kohberger based on these leaks, which may have come from the prosecution. So that is something I find tremendously troubling.

[Anya Cain]

So I want to say something. You know, we have.

We.

We debated behind the scenes covering the Dateline episode in and of itself, you know, because I was kind of like, we, we. We should talk about this. This is crazy. And Kevin pointed out, we're not really serving you guys our audience when we're just basically like riffing off of reporting someone else did. And I agree with that. I think, I think there's, there's a time and a place for that, and it just didn't really feel like it rose to that here. And there's also a lot of unknowns, like, where the heck did they get this information? And, and as, as, as a journalist, I, I don't really. I saw people getting very upset with Dateline on social media, and I completely understand that reaction. At the same time, I understand where Dateline's coming from. They're trying to inform the public and get a scoop. I don't understand why someone would leak this to them. I'm gonna tell you, having spoken about this, just behind the scenes with other people who are following the case. And I mean, like, smart people who are not like weird co Burger fans. Like, there's a whole weird fandom arising around this case like we've seen in so many other cases. So buckle up for that, folks. But I'm just talking about normal people who are just kind of like, you know, just trying to cover it or trying to look at it. A lot of people at this point. And my own opinion is it looks like a, a stateside leak. It doesn't look like a defense leak to me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That, that seems more probable. I haven't seen, but I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

I could be wrong.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I haven't seen direct evidence that would prove that.

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And this is serious enough that I hate to like, point the finger without.

[Anya Cain]

No. And I'm not. That's why I'm not like, I'm not. We're not coming down hard. I'm just to be honest.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But if it is on the state side, that is extraordinarily troubling. And I, I would be very concerned about how that would affect the rights of Mr. Kohlberger to have a fair trial.

[Anya Cain]

I feel like one thing about Ann Taylor is that she's one one defense attorney in a high profile case. That is, from my observation, I could be completely wrong. If you think I'm wrong, let me know why. But I don't feel there's been language that her team has used in filings that's a bit over the top and whatnot. But generally, I don't get the sense that they've been courting the media as much. I think they have the sense that they're under siege from the media and that the media is against their client. And the media is therefore kind of the enemy in a way. And I don't feel like they've been trying to, you know, they put out some stuff that has been conspiratorial in filings. I'm thinking about the phone expert, Syray, but generally it just doesn't have the same vibe as kind of your Delphi or your Karen Reed. I think they've been more shy of the media and trying to really focus a lot on this death penalty stuff and focus on more of the law. And again, that's my opinion. I'm couching this as my opinion. It could come out tomorrow that, you know, it was totally the defense that this. I'm just, I'm giving you. But I, no matter who did it. And actually, it's worse, as you said, it's. If the state did this, I would be really curious how this happened. A full accounting would be nice. And also, I guess what's wild to me is, like, there's no risk to anybody to just, you know, come out with stuff and do a documentary after a case is adjudicated. I get why it was in Dateline's interest to push something through. Because then they got the scoop. Right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

And that's all that matters to, to, to people in their position. Um, they don't really care. I mean, like, I'm, like, I, I, I'm, I know. Like, you know, people might hear from a Dateline producer. I'm not saying they're bad people, but they're sharks. They'll come in and they will take a bite out of the case, and then they will swim onto the next case. That's their job. They, they're not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And the job of the legal professionals in this case is not to leak information.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. Not to, not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The people to be super upset with, in my mind, are not so much the reporters, but rather the people who leaked it to those reporters.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, exactly. It's like. So I guess my question is why on earth did somebody, whoever that was in a position of knowing, feel that it was a good idea to do this? What did they feel was beneficial to them? I don't understand that. Because to me, like, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not even gonna throw out any possible positions. Cause I don't want to give anyone an idea of, you know, like, kind of bias anyone towards anything. But why would a person in a position of, of power or in a position of knowing, why would they care whether or not it, like, you know, got a dateline producer, a raise or a bonus or a good story. Like, why would they care about that? Why would they do this? Why would they trust somebody? Why not just wait till it's over and then you can tell your story and there's no problem?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then are. Are they. Were they consciously trying to poison the jury pool? I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

It's concerning. I mean, I would hope not, but, you know, I mean, it kind of like at some point, intention doesn't matter. And then the other question is, like, I mean, the. The. The. The scenario that I could almost imagine is, like, you trust a producer, and they say they're going to hold it till after the case, but then they just go with it. But I don't know. That's kind of burning a bridge in a pretty severe way. So I. I don't know. I mean, it's. It's really like, normally, you and I, like, we can have some fun. Like, Kevin. This is what Kevin and I do. This is probably why we started the podcast. But, like, behind the scenes, we'll talk about crimes or weird stuff that happens in crime, and we'll be like, oh, I bet this happened, you know, kind of speculation, and you can kind of come up with a scenario and you realize it might not be right, but you can come up with something that kind of makes sense and ticks all the boxes. I'm really struggling here. I cannot. I don't understand why this happened. And it disturbs me just as any other leak in any other case disturbs me more so, though, because I do feel like there's a good chance this came from the state.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And I just, you know, that's not how you're supposed to do it. You want people to be buttoned up. That doesn't necessarily mean state, by the way, does not necessarily mean late to prosecutor's office. You know, this was a sprawling investigation involving multiple law enforcement agencies.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And no matter what our personal opinions are at the moment about Mr. Kohlberger's guilt or innocence, he does have rights.

[Anya Cain]

He has a right to a fair trial. It's, like, sacred and enshrined in our Constitution. There's just.

[Kevin Greenlee]

No, I don't want the jury to make a determination about his guilt or innocence based on anything other than what is presented in that courtroom.

[Anya Cain]

And if you believe in his guilt strongly, you should also be upset because that this is a situation where a judge can say, oh, well, we figured out that your side did this, so now you're going to lose this piece of evidence. You can't use it at trial. So it could weaken the case against him potentially if penalties are levied out. In that sense, again, we're getting ahead of ourselves. We don't, we don't know what happened, it seems like. I mean, I would hope that is ongoing, them looking into it and kind of preventing this from happening again. I kind of, you know, like, I don't, I don't know. It's disappointing though. It really is. And so anyways, Taylor correctly pointed out that as a result of this quote, Julie selection is going to be particularly challenged based on the media coverage in general. She also noted that a book is coming out in a few weeks which is going to be attached apparently according to her at least to a Amazon prime docuseries that is boasting inside sources and information in the case. So she's basically saying let's let the docu series kind of play out. You know, sort of like air that out and then come back to this whole trial business. Personally, I don't know if I find that super compelling. It. It's sort of like it is what it is. It's. I mean, like, I think a lot of people do not follow this and you could probably see to fair jury anyway at this point. I mean, that's just my opinion. It's gonna, I mean, I understand why people find that hard to believe because we all care about crime and true crime and whatever, but like a lot of people just don't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's the football thing. Hundreds of thousands or millions of people watch football every week. I know nothing about it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, but I think Ann Taylor, you know, made her argument that was, you know, that's what she's gonna do. So the next attorney to speak for the state this time was Joshua Hurwit, and he was previously the United States Attorney for the District of Idaho and is now working on this case and helping them. Lato county prosecutors, of course, Bill Thompson. And so Mr. Hurwitz spoke, he talked about, he stressed that the judge should really just look at the objective record and say is that. And say that the record supports denying the motion. You know, he cited a couple of cases and kind of brought up, you know, one from the Idaho Supreme Court where they were evaluating whether or not counsel was effective and what his conclusion from that case was. Just the, in order to be effective defense counsel doesn't need to investigate the entire life of the defendant to present mitigating circumstances. He referred to this as, I think like a scorched earth investigation. And you know, he, he Said he said, pretty bluntly, quote, what seems to be the strategy here is to be to. To delay, end quote, so that, like, they're trying to delay the trial date. He said that, you know, the state filed for an extension. I forgot about this, but I remember now. I remember the state filed for an extension because they had a mental health expert they wanted to bring in. The defense said no, absolutely not, because the trial date is coming up. But then now they're saying no, actually, let's push the trial date back anyways. So he says basically the defense is trying to use the discovery as sort of an excuse, the dog ate my homework kind of type thing to try to remove the death penalty, but now to push back the case. And he said it came out that the defense has a specialist who's working specifically on the issue of mitigation. Hurwitz says they can keep working on it. You know, I mean, they can work on it throughout the trial. Says that there are 55 mitigation witnesses, 130 exhibits, and what he described as a robust team on the defense side, including retained experts.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That sounds pretty robust.

[Anya Cain]

He said that Taylor honed in on the social life history of the defendant. And he's, you know, they've had expert reports, they had the defendant's forensic psychiatrist and a licensed psychologist, both experienced specialists who conducted significant and, quote, fulsome life history investigations. So basically, like, what else do you need? Is kind of the vibe over there? Taylor comes back with, yes, all that, but we've had witnesses who've refused to speak with us. And what she said was especially around past treatment records and medical records. So that's kind of interesting. So maybe people who looked at CO Burger from a mental health perspective in the past, I imagine, Kevin, that that's a bit complicated when you're looking at people who might have some sort of duty to keep people's information private through HIPAA or whatnot. But also now they're being called to like, give that information to his defense team. Like, I guess that can kind of get complicated.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It can get complicated pretty quickly.

[Anya Cain]

And she said the gravity of what they have to say can't be known to our experts, end quote. To me, that's really vague. Like, yeah, I mean, possibly like a guy in a pirate costume could burst into the courtroom and say, I have evidence of CO Burger's autism and here it is, and deliver to them. But like, how can you know what you don't know? Like, we're getting into Donald Rumsfeld terror, like unknown unknowns and Known like, I did, like, at some point. Like, it just feels sort of like delaying tactics. If I'm being totally blunt, that's my opinion. This is a delaying tactic, but it's one that I understand and sympathize with because I know they have a mountain to go through. So I'm not mad about it. My opinion is I'm not mad about it, but I don't. Like, at some point it's like, okay, you kind of just gotta go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I tend to agree with you. It's not unusual for if you want a particular outcome, you. You make strong arguments. You also include some arguments that aren't so strong. Just. You just throw everything in.

[Anya Cain]

Well, it's like, I get why they want this, but I mean, it's just like, it sounds like they have a pretty substantive situation. She. She argues that the APA requirements would have them go through his whole life history. And one thing that kind of came between her and Hitler, who sometimes has, you know, I wouldn't say testy exchanges, but just kind of like, he kind of juts but butts in there and is a little bit like, kind of skeptical. And she's very unflappable, so she kind of just handles it. She was saying, oh, two and a half years into a case, the average is three and a half for capital cases. Judge Hitler comes in with in federal court, which moves at a snail's pace on its best day in regular cases. And Taylor's like, well, I'm not a federal practitioner, so, you know, but like, you know, he's basically saying this is in federal court. And what Hitler said is he's going to take the matter under advisement. He's going to try to get his opinion out in short order, quote. In the meantime, I fully encourage everyone to continue as if the trial is going to. Going to take place when it is scheduled for. There was then nothing further brought up by either side for the public session. And then it went into a closed private session, so the bailiffs cleared the courtroom. One other thing I wanted to mention, and again, this is something that's come out in other media reports and we're kind of going to be deliberately vague about this, as has a lot of other media, and I think that's the right call and I think that's responsible reporting, so kudos to everybody. But it's also come out that a woman was pulled over recently and, and brought in for sort of a looks like a DUI investigation who claimed in body cam footage that was then put on YouTube that she was a witness in the Coburger case and that she was the person who was the doordash food delivery driver who had come to that residence where the kids were and basically, you know, may have seen something important. So obviously, if the person is having some trouble, Right, with the dui, that could be something, I don't know, depending on the situation, could be problematic for the state, but at the same time, kind of give some interesting insight into, you know, things we might be seeing going forward. So I guess any other questions you have or any other thoughts on what's going on in Idaho?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Nope. You've covered it all brilliantly.

[Anya Cain]

I wouldn't say that, but I really appreciate it. And yeah, we'll be kind of continuing to check in. I mean, do you think he'll. Do you think Hitler will continue it based on everything we just heard?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Honest answer. I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

My honest feeling, having heard the arguments and not being a lawyer obviously, is he will not continue it, but he could sometimes, you know, you could understand continuing something just to be on the safe side, but you could also understand where you're saying, well, I'm not really hearing anything that's super significant. And it feels like we're just kind of trying to delay things. So, you know, he's got a lot of interest to weigh here and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we certainly keep an eye on this. Shall we move on?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think that was it as far as Idaho.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I wanted to mention again that we are going to Crimecon in a few months and we want to make sure that Crimecon doesn't think they've made a terrible mistake in allowing us to. And so you can help us with that. If you buy your tickets to Crimecon and use our special code, there are no. At least some people are coming to see us. And in return, you get like a discount, right?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. This is. You get a 10% discount off your standard badge. And the code is murder sheet, very simple. M U R D E R S H E E T so you'll get 10% off your standard badge. Save some money, come hang with us. We'll be there. We'll be signing books at that point, and we will be really excited to talk to you so that we don't have to stand around awkwardly. So come talk to us, please.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And that way Crimecon will know they did not make a mistake in allowing us to come.

[Anya Cain]

They didn't make a mistake. We. And we. And we won't be. We won't be just awkwardly like, I'll. You Know, you start to get into that point where you don't even know what to do with your arms or your hands. Like, just standing there is just painful.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm looking forward to it. I was actually at the inaugural Crime Con here in Indianapolis.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, you're like a Crime Con veteran. I've never.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You've never been to one?

[Anya Cain]

I've never been to one. So I'm really excited. I think it's gonna be a great time. I'm really excited to see some of the creators that I love and I listen to. I'm really excited to, you know, see. I think there's gonna be some really cool panels and events, and it'll just be really cool. I've also never visited Denver, so I'm excited to see Denver. Excited to see Colorado.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Great comic book store there, I understand.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And they kind of got. I mean, I've been to the airport, I guess, but I've never been, like, out in Denver, so it'll be really fun. And we really hope to see you at CrimeCon 2025 again. Your standard badges, 10% off with code MURDER sheet. And hopefully we can hang there and don't feel like you're, like, bothering us. If you come up to us, like, we will be bothering you because we'll be like, please stay with us so we don't have to just be standing here looking awkward. So.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And as Anya says, we will all hang. Oh, you like Ben Franklin over there?

[Anya Cain]

What do you mean, Franklin? Oh, not. Not like we're not going to be executed by the British. What are you talking about?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't even know what you're talking about.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. Now you're worried you're going to be in there in your tricorn hat and looking ridiculous. Let's just get out of here.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail] if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the murder sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to Talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered. You can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So we want to shout out one of our wonderful sponsors right now, and that sponsor is Happy Mammoth. This is a wonderful natural wellness brand. We've been using it and it's been terrific. They're a great solution if you feel like you might be dealing with some hormone disruptors. I mean, that kind of happens to everyone. It's in the air, it's in the food, it's in lots of different products.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's really reduced your cravings.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, for me, it's. I mean, I get cranin nuts about my cravings. Sometimes I will, you know, suddenly really want Macintosh apples, which aren't even in season, and various other things. We all know I've been stealing a lot of cereal recently, or allegedly, I should say. And so to kind of help beat that, I've been using their Hormone Harmony supplement. It's just a supplement. You take it a couple of times, you know, couple doses, and I feel like it's boosted my gut health, to be honest. It's also something that women who are in perimenopause or menopause, they can use it and it' to reduce your hot flashes. You're going to have more energy, get to sleep better. So it's really good for women of all ages. But for me, the gut health element of it has been really special. So if you're interested for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order@happy mammoth.com, just use the code msheet at checkout. That's happy mammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off today.