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- [00:00]
Anya Cain
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- [00:16]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [00:38]
Anya Cain
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- [00:47]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [00:57]
Anya Cain
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- [01:05]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [01:30]
Anya Cain
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- [01:42]
Kevin Greenlee
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- [02:02]
Anya Cain
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- [02:33]
Kevin Greenlee
Content warning this episode includes discussion of murder.
- [02:39]
Anya Cain
So today we had in Ada County, Idaho, the sentencing hearing for the murderer in the University of Idaho murders. This is, of course, the quadruple homicide that took the lives of four young University of Idaho students who were all in a house on King Road in Moscow, Idaho. Their names were Zanna Kernodle, Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan and Kelly Gonsalves. This horrible crime happened in 2022, and we are final at the end. It's not the end of suffering and anguish for their families or the surviving roommates in this case, but we had the murderer, this quadruple homicide perpetrator sentenced today. And we're going to talk about what we saw. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [03:36]
Kevin Greenlee
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
- [03:39]
Anya Cain
And this is the Murder Sheet.
- [03:41]
Kevin Greenlee
We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.
- [03:50]
Anya Cain
And this is the University of Idaho, the Sentencing Hearing. SAM okay, so let's so today, basically, one thing you should note, just as sort of a production note, is that I watched this entire hearing. I sat for it remotely in a hotel room because Kevin and I are actually traveling for business right now. And so I'll be kind of we kind of discussed some of the high points beforehand, sort of giving you a heads up of what's coming up and talking about some legal issues. But this is gonna be an Anya heavy episode, just because I had all day to watch it and you didn't. Cause you were doing some murder Sheet business.
- [05:19]
Kevin Greenlee
I was. I would like to make an observation I believe I made at the time of the Richard Allen sentencing. Normally, when you look at the subject of a sentencing, be it sentencing, normally, when you look at the subject of a hearing, be it sentencing or something else, the most important part of it is the subject of that hearing. So you would think a sentencing hearing, the most important thing would the sentencing itself. But realistically, all of you, within the sound of my voice, we all knew before today that whatever sentence this guy got, he's never going to get out of prison. So we knew that. And what's really important and I think really, really crucial, is that this hearing gave the opportunity for a lot of people who have been quiet to finally.
- [06:07]
Anya Cain
Have a voice that is correct. And I will also add we're making the editorial decision on our parts that honestly I didn't really even think of it until I was watching this hearing that we are not going to be speaking the killer's name. There's no point. He's no longer innocent until proven guilty. He's a guilty party. And frankly, motive is elusive in this case. I think he could get up and talk for five hours about why he did this and motive would still be elusive in this case because it just is not going to be something that ever makes sense to normal people, non homicidal people. So we're making the choice to not give him whatever, whatever, whatever our voices would add to glorifying him in any way. We don't want to do that. So we're going to just choose to not name him. So if we slip up, I apologize but we're going to try to just call him the killer or the murderer. That's all he is now. That's his identity. That's all you need to know. So, you know, not judging anyone who does something different. People can choose how they cover things in their own way, but that is a choice we've made. So we actually heard from three of the four families today. And before I get started telling you about like what was said in these victim impact statements because that took up the majority of the time here, I will say they each weirdly enough captured something different that I feel like it covers a range of different, I guess, themes or emotions that people might be feeling in the wake of such loss. Madison Mogan's family, for me they captured the sorrow, the grief, the sadness I wept hearing from some of these people. It was, it was so raw and it was so heartbreaking to see their pain. Everyone who spoke was in pain by the way, but they very much that was what hit me about them. The Consolvuses, Kaylee's family, the anger, the rage, the anguish. But like how dare you do this to our family? The protectiveness. So that's another reaction. The Kernodles, they just said things in such a down to earth way. Something that I think you could almost imagine meeting them on the street. There's like something so relatable about them where you could just. This plain spoken way of dealing with things and kind of grappling with themes of forgiveness but also anger, but just very down to earth, very relatable. The Chapins did not speak Ethan's Family did not speak. So for me that's another reaction. It's like, what is there to say? What is there to say to this person? So it's a completely valid decision to not get up there. It's like everyone, when you're dealing with victims, families, any of these feelings, forgiving or not forgiving, speaking or not speaking, getting angry, being sad, feeling numb, all of that is completely valid. So the way this rolled out and Ashley Jennings, by the way, the deputy prosecutor of Lato county, did a great job. She was just kind of seemingly the person kind of like bringing up families and working, making sure everything ran smoothly. So she said that we were going to go in order of the charges. So it was going to be the burglary count and it was going to be the murder charges after that. And so just as a refresher for everybody, the state was represented by elected prosecutor Bill Thompson, the longtime Lato county prosecutor, his deputy Ashley Jennings, and then Joshua Hurwit, Jeff nye and a Ms. Allen who was also sitting on their side. And then the defense was of course Ann Taylor, the lead defense attorney, as well as Barlow and Masseth. Their first names escape me. The immediate thing that struck me upon turning on this stream and watching it was dressed in the bright orange jumpsuit, the traditional prison, jail, whatever, you know, what have you, incarcerated person jumpsuit. He's got, you know, I think a belly chain on. Can you talk about Kevin, why we were seeing him in street clothes in the pre trial phase, just normal dressed guy versus why now it's okay for him to be in that particular outfit, like legally there's a legal reason for that. And I'm curious you could explain that to our listeners.
- [10:42]
Kevin Greenlee
I think what you want me to talk about in regards to the convicted killer in this case is that before you are convicted you're presumed innocent and you don't want the defendant in a case who again is presumed innocent to appear before a jury dressed in prison garb because there would be a worry and a concern that that might affect their opinion of him and it might cause them to prejudge the case. But now that's no longer a concern because the case has been decided. The killer himself has acknowledged his guilt. So there's no reason to play pretend or to not acknowledge that he is anything other than what he is, which is the guilty killer of four young people.
- [11:36]
Anya Cain
And people might be wondering why is it so important that, you know, he appear not threatening or innocent or what have you? Why is that so important before a.
- [11:45]
Kevin Greenlee
Jury well, again, there's a presumption of innocence. You don't want a jury to look at a defendant and see them as a prisoner. Because when you see someone in prison garb, I think there's a natural tendency to think, oh, he's a prisoner, he belongs in that world, whatever. You want to give the defendant every benefit of the doubt and so you don't want him to look any different from somebody you might see on the street.
- [12:16]
Anya Cain
Yes. I just want to explain that I think sometimes victims, families can find it really jarring in cases where they feel like things like that are happening or they're like, well, we know he's a vicious monster, so why, why can't he, you know, why is he in his little outfits? And the thing is, our system is built purposely to protect first and foremost the rights of the defendant. That's the priority. It's actually not the victims, it's the rights of the defendant. And that's why that is. And that's good. I think that's a good thing. But it can be hard on victims families when they're going through the process and feels like everything's stacked against them versus the person that may have killed their loved one. Right. Uh, so that's important, important to note for, you know, the killer I noted had this intense gaze. I noted it at this point early on. He was seemingly staring at the judge as he was speaking. It was a four way kind of split down the stream. I was watching from the, you know, the Idaho court. And he was first and front and center for one of those pains. And then another one showed the prosecution, another one showed the wider defense, and then another one showed Judge Steven Hippler, of course is the judge in ADA county who is presiding over this. And he just seemed to be staring intently at the judge. Honestly, I wasn't paying that much attention to the killer the whole time. There would be times where I'd be looking for a reaction. Any reactions that were or were not there were extremely muted. There seemed to be almost a. Over time he seemed to be kind of more tense or clenched up a little bit. But that's just my view. You know, that's just, that's just what I saw or I thought I saw, maybe that, maybe that's not the case. But you may have also, we, we can't really ascribe anything. Is that fear? Is that regret? Is that sadness? Is that anger? Is that, you know, satisfaction? Is that just sitting for a long time? I mean, who knows? So I don't really Read into any of that. I'm sure a lot of people will be talking about, like, how he was very impassive and cold. And, yes, I would say that would be what comes to mind for me, too. But the same thing. I. I don't know what's in his head, and I frankly don't care to know. Like, it's just, you know, whatever. He's. He's not. He's certainly not as interesting as he seems to think he is. So. So the state kind of came out with Thompson saying they didn't intend to present evidence. They did bring in some photographs to use in the cloak in their sentencing argument. You know, like, this is one thing I always find weird about sentencing hearings, Kevin, is like, it's kind of a foregone conclusion on some level, it seems like. I mean, are judges sitting there being like, whoa, great point. Or, like, I don't know, like, is it just an opportunity to give everyone to vent? I mean, like. Or is it in the middle somewhere?
- [15:06]
Kevin Greenlee
I think it's likely in the middle somewhere. The longest sentencing hearing you or I ever attended was the sentencing for Kent and Klein. And it was obvious, I think, going into that, that the judge in the case had done a lot of thinking about it, but that he hadn't made up his final mind. And I think the judge in that case was, like, really listening and pondering over a few things.
- [15:32]
Anya Cain
Judge Timothy Spahr of Miami County.
- [15:34]
Kevin Greenlee
And I think that's likely true of most judges. They have, at the very least, a general idea of what sort of sentence they think is appropriate and what's allowed and what's allowed. Maybe oftentimes they know the sentence they're going to impose, but sometimes there's still a little bit that they're still thinking over. And again. I do think it's important for the victims to get a voice in the process, because as you just pointed out, the system is really weighted heavily throughout the process to protect the rights of the defendant. And there's a lot of good reasons for that.
- [16:12]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I think that's how it should be.
- [16:13]
Kevin Greenlee
But at the end of the day, after the defendant has received a fair trial or has accepted guilt, as this person did, I think it's time to turn the stage over to the victims and their loved ones so they can get a voice.
- [16:29]
Anya Cain
I concur. I understand why it would be frustrating for families, but I think it's an imperfect system, but it's one that works better when individual rights are protected, even for bad people, because that protects rights for Good people. So, you know, we gotta protect our rights first and foremost. And that can be frustrating. But I think just knowing more about how it works can help people and can help, you know, if you, if you, if you're aware of how it works, then you can understand why things are happening versus feeling like it's just so biased against you. For the first charge, again, got into the burglary that this guy committed, breaking into this house. He got through the screen door and then went up and murdered everybody. So the first two witnesses were the two surviving roommates. Six young people lived in this house, or rather, you know, six young people were in this house in. On King Road. I believe Ethan was just visiting because Santa was his girlfriend. But you know, they were all frequently there and then the girls were all roommates. So this one, these two, these two roommates that survived are very much victims in this. Imagine waking up to some of your closest friends that you consider family brutally murdered. And then the killer goes uncaught for, for a little bit. Then he's caught. And then you are dragged through the mud in an incredible way on social media. So for the first. And again, like it's out there. But I'm gonna just use the initials for the roommates. Cause that's just where I feel more comfortable. I know in the very far past, I think we use their names and I just. Let's just use their initials. I mean, they've been through enough here. So BF was one of the surviving roommates. Asked that her friend read her statement for her. She did not read her statement. Her friend came up and read what she wanted to say. BF talked about losing a sister and how, quote, never in a million years would I have thought that something like this could happen. End quote. BF&DM, the other surviving roommate, were kind of known in the house as the scaredy cats. Like they were nervous about everything. Oh no, what's going to happen? And so she talked about, like she just thought that they would come up and then be. Everyone else would tease them about how they were scaredy cats and they got freaked out last night and it wasn't a big deal. And then they'd all make jokes and tease them and go to Taco Bell like they always did. And she talked about waking up at 7am with a toothache. Her dad's a dentist. She texts him, took aval, goes back to sleep. She talks about how she regrets intensely not calling 911 right away. She acknowledged it wouldn't have changed anything. You know, but injuries of, of There was no saving, no one bled out slowly. This was not. There was no saving anybody. But it still haunts her. She's like, her statement is like, it's defensive. Not in a way that's like weird, but in a way that's like this young, young woman has been like, had every single insane theory and criticism thrown at her. So I feel like she felt like she had to address it. It just made me sad and I just want to say something. I'm going to. I was thinking this and I actually posted in our Facebook group page in our, in our patreon because I was just like so angry listening to this. Every commentator and every frigging content creator who went after her or DM should apologize. Apologize for getting it wrong. Like do something right with your friggin life. Like, how dare you. These girls went through hell for no reason and then they went through hell again because all like the, the big brain Internet sleuths, you know, got together and said, isn't it suspicious that, you know, people wouldn't call 911 after a night of drinking when they have the faintest suspicion that something's going on? It's like, yeah, wait a way to let everyone know that you're a loser who's never like done anything in your life and has no idea how anything works. That's all I'm gonna say. Like how dare you apologize? And none of these people will because they don't feel shame and this is just content for them. It's not real. It's not real people who are really hurt by this. It's just a bunch of, you know, it's a, it's a game. It's like clue, we can all have fun. And it's like, you know what, go like anyways, to be clear too, even though this was the friend reading BF's statement, she's like weeping. She's struggling to get through this. You can tell how much this is weighing on her friend. I give her friend so much credit for coming and doing this for her friend B.F. who you know, wanted her words in there, but maybe this wasn't going to be the situation where she wanted to come out and do it again. God bless this young woman who did this for her friend. What a terrific friend and what a hard task to do. She did it really well though. BF remembered things like game nights, lazy wine nights, hot chocolate, cookies, warmth, going to the Sigma Chi Halloween party. They're just all very happy to be with each other. She actually individually described each roommate called Xana One in a million. Just life of the party. Very, very funny. Just always wanted to be around her. They would watch movies together and just snack. Kayla just like Kaylie, rather just radiant smile. Just full of energy and life. Maybe you could have ruled the world if she wanted to. Ethan was so sweet and genuine. Made others smile, always smiling. And he was like. Him and Zanna's relationship were like, you know, a true romance and they really loved each other and Bia felt that they were soulmates. Madison, I think she was very close to, I think that was her big in the sorority, her big sister in the sorority. And she was the older sister I would've always wanted. She said she looked up to her. She admired her more than anyone. She was ray of sunshine, passionate. Thanks God that she was her sorority little. They do dance routines or binge watch summer house or Jersey Shore and just. Yeah. She said, quote, who they are was so beautiful and they deserve to be remembered in the highest way. End quote. And she still wishes, like sometimes she finds herself wanting to text them to hang out and she has to remember that they're gone. So, yeah, Hipler, you know, thanked her for her courage and her friend sat down. Then it was DM's turn to come up and Ashley Jennings just asked for the stipulation that DM be able to sit in Jennings chair instead of at the podium, which was granted. DM was like nervous is an understatement. She came forward and it took her a while to be able to start speaking. She was crying and breathing very deeply, trying to calm herself down and eventually whispered, sorry, kept crying. I wrote down here, oh my God, this is so awful. It's just. It was really hard to see her pain. You could really, really. It was anguish. It was just heartbreaking to see. This is an extremely young woman who again, like went through the worst thing imaginable. Now she's getting up here to face her friend's killer, to face everybody, to face the whole stupid true crime Internet community, which again should hang its head in a collective shame. It makes me embarrassed to be in true crime. Stuff like this makes me genuinely embarrassed. It really does. It like I, I feel like shame because it's like I'm part of something that's capable of hurting people who have gone through the worst thing imaginable. And you know, but we need to, we need to, you know, like the people in the community need their blood so they can make stupid content about it and get like 30 likes. So, you know, that's why it happens. It makes Me so disgusted. Truly. So, you know. So at this point, the killer's looking. I thought he looked a bit uncomfortable here, but still pretty blank. DM said what happened that night changed everything and talked about how these four beautiful, genuine, compassionate people were taken for this world for no reason. I'm glad she pointed that out. No reason this happened. So, I mean, like, if it's. It's. You still lose your loved one if they get caught up in a stupid gang fight. But, like, there's a gang fight in this case, no motive makes any sense, right? Like, it just. He wanted to kill somebody. Some people. She said that the killer took the light these four carried into every room, took away the way they made everyone feel safe and loved. Her ability to tell them she loved them. Took away birthdays, graduations, celebrations, all the memories they were supposed to make together. She said they weren't just like a house of people living together. It felt like a home. And she just celebrated her birthday at the end of September. Then this happened in November. Talked about, like, how they should have been doing stuff together, and instead she's sleeping in her mom's bed, making escape plans everywhere she goes, figuring out how she could defend herself in any situation. Sometimes she has panic attacks now that she described as slamming into her like a tsunami. She can't stop shaking. It's just. This is something that's completely changed her life. And she. I said that I thought this was a really apt description. She called him the killer. A hollow vessel, something less than human. And she had a dream recently. This made me cry. Sorry. Where she got to say goodbye to the four of them. She told them she had to say goodbye, and they all kept asking her why they had to say goodbye, and she couldn't tell them. And, yeah, my heart goes out to BF and dm. I hope they're able to heal from this as much as possible. I hope people leave them alone. Just leave them alone. Like, there's no reason to prolong and put more pain into the world by doing this. And in the next case, I'm begging people. I understand that we want answers, but we're not the police, okay? We're not the defense attorneys. We're not the defense investigators. We're not the prosecutors. We're all just watching, right? Even reporters. We're outside observers. We're not parties to the case. There's no. Absolutely no reason for us to be sleuthing out other possible suspects and naming them in this way. It's just not right. It's not right. And it has to stop. And we need better moderation and we need better standards. These two women talked about how they were being like they were getting wave after wave of angry messages from people calling them all sorts of vile things, accusing them of all sorts of vile things, accusing them of killing these friends who they clearly loved, who they felt were a home together with. And I mean, to have to go through that after experiencing something like this, I mean, it's just compounding the trauma. They should have been left in peace. They should have been left to grieve and deal with this. They shouldn't have been harassed. They shouldn't have been smeared online. And again, shame on everyone who participated in that. We have to do better as a community. This can't, I mean, what do you think?
- [27:57]
Kevin Greenlee
Yeah, it needs to stop. You would think we would know better by now because we saw that in this case, we saw it in Delphi, we've seen it in a long line of cases, and we know that it causes nothing but unneeded extra pain and suffering to people who have already undergone more trauma than we can imagine.
- [28:21]
Anya Cain
And like, I think a lot of it happens not because people are trying to be awful. I think it happens because they're not thinking, they're not, they're not being empathetic. And I would just say, like, I think the way to handle this because, like, you know, we, we don't support the creators who are doing it. Obviously don't give them a click. That's money. But the thing we can do just for the everyday people is if you know somebody who's, like, posting all about, yeah, what are these roommates doing? Just like, if you know them in real life, you could just say something like, hey, you know, like, that's not it. This isn't it. Like, this is, I mean, bring some shame back into everyone. Like, public shame is, is not something we should just be inflicting on people because they happened to be witnesses in a murder case. But it is something I think we should inflict on people who are trying to, you know, do what people did to these kids. So I, I, I just like saying something if you're seeing it, like, that's not really cool. Like, like something because, like, it's unacceptable. And people feel way too comfortable just saying whatever the hell they want online. Like, like, like Those girls are 19, they're 20, they're in college, they just went through the worst trauma maybe without like, having any sort of, like, charges against them or any, like, concrete evidence other than, like, I don't know, like, my favorite YouTuber has a suspicion she's got a. You know, maybe. Maybe beyond that, we shouldn't be posting things about how awful they are, how suspicious they are. Like, I just. I don't know, like, can we just have, like, a basement in terms of standards? Can we have, like. Like some line people won't cross? Next came Madison Mogan's family, starting with her stepfather, Scott Laramie, and her mother, Karen Laramie. They. Scott read it on behalf of both of them, talked about how Maddie was their gift, their life, their purpose and their hope. And Scott met her when she was just two and a half years old. That's when he got together with Karen. And she was just a beautiful, bright, kind, empathetic, observant girl who always had a keen wit. He was really having trouble getting the words out. It was just heartbreaking to watch. He said this world was a better place with her in it. I noticed a couple times Judge Hippler kind of dabbing his eyes or his nose with a tissue. I don't know if he was tearing up. I don't want to make an assumption, but I wouldn't be surprised because again, I personally was crying through most of this whole thing. It was really, really sad and hard to watch. And I just. These poor people talked about how Karen took years to grieve from her mother's death in a car crash, whereas Maddie helped her heart to heal. And now her world is collapsing again. She's suffering from anxiety and depression. She says a lot. How am I supposed to go on when I've lost my favorite person in the world? He said he's not gonna waste the words on the defendant or he's not on the defendant anymore, on the murderer. And that evil has many faces and it does not deserve our time and attention. That was what he said that made me think, I don't wanna mention this guy's name. Quote, we are done being victims. We're taking back our lives. We will turn our time, talents and attention to hope, healing and helping others. And end quote. And Hitler, you know, apologizes for their loss and said, God bless you. You can see the Laramies hugging people as they're walking away. Then Leander James came up. He was standing there also with Karen. James is an attorney who sort of the. You'll recognize this, Kevin. Pro bono counsel for the victim's family. And he read Karen's statement for her, talked about the. When you kill a child, you are not just killing that child. You are defiling the efforts and sacrifices of that child's parents, extended families, siblings, educators, the community that put everything into that child. And children being our future, you're just. You're just defiling that. And she also thanked the court and the prosecutions and everyone who supported the families. I saw Jennings kind of give them a bit of a smile as they walked off. And James and Laramie hugged. James and Karen hugged a while after she left the stand. Next was Kim Cheeley, the paternal grandmother of Madison. As she started, I could. I believe I could still hear Karen crying. She. So Kim's son is Ben, who's Maddie's dad. And she talked about how they were very happy with the plea deal. It punishes the killer, protects the public, and removes the burden of the long and gruesome trial and years of appeals from them. So they voice support for that. And she talked about, quote, my family and I are so grateful to Bill Thompson and his prosecution team, as well as the Idaho State Police. She mentioned the Moscow police, FBI, Judge Hippler himself, the University of Idaho officials. And she talked about how Maddie was the little girl who made her a grandmother. She was her first grandchild, and, oh, my God, I start crying. She talked about how when Maddie was little and they, you know, she was starting to say words, but, like, maybe struggling as little kids always do. She started calling Bananas Bo, Deedle, Deedles for some reason, and then thought Nana was the same as Banana, so started calling her Deedle. And she held up a necklace that Maddie had gotten her, which said Deedle and Maddie. And she talked about how she never thought she'd be the kind of person where she'd get a tattoo, but she got one, which was an angel wing tattoo, replicating the one that Maddie and her sorority sisters had all gotten. And now she can always look at it and remember Maddie. And she's had to do a lot of counseling. EMDR families all had depression, and they've really struggled with the media attention. Some days it's, you know, she says, some days it's beyond me how the parents of these kids are still upright. She also said her heart aches for the roommates, the families of the other kids, and the family of the perpetrator. I thought that was very generous that she acknowledged that there'd be pain to go around there. And they want to celebrate on May 25, which was Maddie's birthday. They want to call it Maddie May Day, and just encourage people to use that day to do a random act of kindness in Maddie's name. Up next came Benjamin Mogan, who's Maddie's father. He's very soft spoken and he thanked all the people who helped bring the case to a close. Quote, I know it's not the resolution everyone wanted, but I think that everyone worked so hard. We really appreciate all of. He said that Maddie was the only child he ever had, and she was the only great thing I ever really did. And he thought that they would have the rest of their lives together after her, you know, college experience, to hang out and be with each other and be a family. She'd earned all her credits for her degree at that point, apparently. And he thanked Karen and Scotty for doing a great job raising her and talked about how they got to spend a lot of great times together. They went to a Mac Miller show out in after, you know, it was sold out. But he, I guess, did some radio thing where he called in and got some tickets. So he got to bring her and her friends to the show. And that was her favorite artist at the time, Mac Miller. And, you know, he's passed away, he mentioned. And Zach, the cousin of theirs who drove them that night, has also passed away and now Maddie's gone. He read a Father's Day card written by her talking about how she can't wait until they hang again soon and I'm proud of how far you've come and things like that. He talked about he went through a lot of addiction issues, substance abuse issues, and she encouraged him to live on because knowing she was out there was such a beautiful person. Just kept him alive and hanging on through a lot of rough moments. At one point you just said, I wrote a bunch of stuff, but I don't know what to say. I just miss her so much. It shouldn't have happened. I love you, Maddie, and I wish you were still here. I noticed at that point Bill Thompson wiping his eyes as well as Judge Hibbler. It was just, ah. The sheer amount of misery caused by this just completely sense. Like, I know that we say senseless a lot in True Crime, but, like, this is completely senseless. Yeah, it's. It just. I'm sorry to be, like, so emotional and like, I don't know, I just. I could. I couldn't. Like, it was just. It was hard to watch any of this. I'm sure anyone else who watched it, streamed it or whatnot, like, feels. I don't know. I don't know how these folks are. I. I mean, I. I'm just praying for them. So the next one who came up was Steve Gonsalves. This is Kaylee Gonzalez's father, he immediately turned his podium to be facing. I believe it's a bit hard for me. I. Visually where everything was in terms of the camera angles, but I believe he was shifting his podium to look. Be. Be looking more directly at the killer. He said that. And if the. Again, as I mentioned, if the Mogans were the grief side, this was the anger side. So we talked about how picked the wrong state to do this in the wrong police, the wrong community, that he tried to break this community apart. But instead, his actions united everyone in disgust for. For the killer. And he talked about how. I thought this was, again, kind of repeating in a different way what Mr. Mogan said. But just today, you have no name again. I think that. I think that's. There's something very wise about that. I mean, what do you think, Kevin, in terms of not naming or glorifying people?
- [39:17]
Kevin Greenlee
It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot of sense.
- [39:21]
Anya Cain
So he said that this was a situation where, after he heard the news, he and his family basically tried to get to work. And they knew early on that this guy's white car had been caught on camera. They knew DNA had been left. He called him foolish, stupid, even with his master's degree. Quote, you're a joke, a complete joke. He said, soon he'll be nothing more than initials on a tombstone. He used his initials rather than his name. And he said, from this moment, we will forget you. And then he talked about how when this guy leaves for prison at the end of this quote, we're laughing at you. He asked. He said, God bless all the men and women that worked on this case, allowed them to grieve and get through this. There were hard times to be expected. Thank you. I felt like he was very gracious and sort of a tacit acknowledgement that although the Gonsalvices have been very critical of Bill Thompson and his office for the plea deal, there seemed to be a tacit admission of, like, they're still unified, and there were hard times around this, but there. I thought it was very gracious of him to say that. So next up, I'm probably gonna say her name wrong, but I think it's Olivia Gonsalves. This is Kaylee's older sister, and she also talked about how she loved Madison Mogan, Kaylee's very close friend, as a sister, too. And she said she was here to speak in truth. She said that these girls were not yours to take study stock or silence. She talked about how Maddie and Kaylee were Everything that the killer could never be. She said if he had approached them in the street and they would have given him directions, thanked him for any compliments, laughed to make him feel more comfortable, to make him less awkward, and, quote, in a world that rejected you, they would have shown mercy. End quote. She talked every day. I'm angry. I'm left shouting at the inside of my own head. End quote. She said she silently promised her sister and Maddie that she would show up for them and would never leave them, would never let them feel alone. She said she. She would always fight battles for them. She. She talked about how there's no guilt, no remorse, no apprehension from the killer. She talked about how he's a sociopath, a psychopath, a murderer. She has questions and told him to sit up straight when I talk to you. I thought that was cool. She talked about how she wanted to know how his life was before the murders. How did he prepare for the crime before leaving his apartment? Why did you choose my sisters? Why did you approach them before making a move? What else did you do before leaving home? She talked about how he failed miserably at being a murderer, which I completely agree with. Leaving a knife sheath with your DNA on it is pretty rookie move there. She talked about, you know, have you been pulling out your eyebrows? She wanted to know why. November 13th. Did he really think a gift card would save him and obscure his purchase on Amazon? How is stargazing fun with all the visual snow he seemingly suffers? Where's the murder weapon? Enclosed? What did you bring into the house? What was the second weapon used on Kaylee? And what were Kaylee's last words? She wanted to know, did he have anxiety when the Bearcat pulled up on December 30, 2022? What did you regret more, returning to the crime scene or never, ever going back to Moscow? If you were really smart, do you think you'd be here right now? What's it like needing this much attention just to feel real? Do you feel anything at all? Or are you exactly as you always feel? Nothing? And she talked about how the darkness he carries around will be his sitting with that will be his sentence. She called him delusional, pathetic, hypochondriac, loser who thought you were so much smarter than everyone else, either scolding or nitpicking and criticizing others so badly wanted to be special or different or mysterious. Some 2010 online IQ test told him he's so elite in terms of his intellect, but he's just a wannabe. Quote. The truth is, you're basic with shallow motives. Not profound, just pathetic. And you call them stupid, Stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty. And then she sees right through him. She ended with this. If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep, like a fucking pedophile, quote, Kaylee would have kicked your fucking ass. So that actually elicited a round of applause. And from then on, people started clapping whenever the victims would say their piece. Sort of like a show of support. Hers was, you know, like Steve Gonzalves's. It was the anger, but I thought with both of them, it was very eloquent. But certainly with her, you really, really felt the big sister rage coming in and just dressing him down with these questions. I was very impressed with her. She came across very strong. You can tell it's heartbreaking as well, but just the anger. How. I mean, how angry would any of us feel if some loser just did this to our beautiful younger sister or, you know, whatever, like, whoever in our lives that we care about. It's like the senselessness. You would, you would, you would. I mean, I think we'd all want to say stuff like that, but I feel like if it was me, I would probably get tongue tied because I'd be so that I wouldn't be able to get it out. But she was able to really calmly and eloquently deliver these punches, verbal punches, and, you know, definitely. Christy Gonsalves, Kaylee's mother, came up. Steve noticed, brought her water, and stood by her throughout this. She took a deep breath. Quote, I didn't think I could find the words low enough to meet you where you are, she said. But she talked about with her daughter, he didn't just take her life. He shattered other lives and attacked what he could never be for as a person. As she talked about, you're not that good. In fact, you're not good at anything. Considering he was working on a PhD in criminal justice, talked about how he couldn't get a job, couldn't get a female to look in his direction, couldn't get along with others. She wished. She says she wished they could get a death sentence, but she said she was confident that, quote, men in prison will have their way with you, end quote. And there was a number of instances of this where they were talking about how they were hoping. I think they were saying it more delicately, delicately than I'm saying it now, but just would be sexually assaulted in prison. And that's something we do hear about a lot from victims families, where they kind of hope that that's part of the deal, obviously crimes shouldn't be occurring in our prisons, but they do. I think, especially when there seems to be like some kind of sexual motive to the crime. People are like, well, that was what you were motivated by and now it's gonna happen to you. So that's, I think, where that's coming from. And she said, hell will be waiting. And she also had a quick message from her younger daughter, Aubrey. You may have received A's in high school and in college, but you're going to be getting big Ds in prison, end quote. People liked that one a lot. There was a lot of applause for that. Shannon Gray came up next. He is the attorney from Kaylee's family. He read statements from her grandparents and her aunt, Tammy Butts. Tammy said, quote, talked about the cloak of darkness that he kind of snuck in under to take Kaylee away. Quote, you just give creepy non expressive stares as you had your team of women defend you, end quote. I also found it, it is interesting that he had a team of exclusively female lawyers defending him. I mean, I don't think there's any, I don't think that necessarily was purposeful. It is just interesting because I personally, this is just complete speculation on my part, but I think the dude had a problem with women. That's just my guess. What do you think? We're speculating.
- [47:45]
Kevin Greenlee
We're speculating. Yeah, I think he probably had a problem with women. I certainly get that impression.
- [47:50]
Anya Cain
He targeted these beautiful young sorority, kind of like college co ed girls, right? And there's like a certain type of man that just sees, you know, young women who have a lot going for them, who have a lot to look forward to and just feels, I want to destroy that. I think, I don't know why, but there's like hatred there. So she told him to burn in hell. And she said, quote, it's not right that you received life. So some of the Gonzalez statements, you're getting some of the tension around the life sentence. But you know, she said, quote, you're nothing, you're a coward. Burn in hell. Then Linda Lukens, one of the grandmothers, quote, talked about the vicious killing spree, took all these beautiful lives and quote, I think you will meet some new friends in prison who will be there just to help you, end quote. Cheryl Gonzalez, another grandmother, said, quote, somewhere in your life something went dark and talked about how he became dark and evil and how he, she wants him to be cast out, but she will not let his hatred penetrate her own soul. It was recess at this Point. Then we're back with the Kernodles, starting with Jasmine Kernodle, Zanna's older sister. I was struck she looked a lot like Zanna. And she talked about, quote, you don't deserve the power of my words, my feelings, or me. She talked about she wanted to honor the people who lost their lives, how a piece of her heart was ripped out, losing her sister and best friend. How no sister will ever come, no sentence will ever come close to basically being justice for their loss. Talked about how Zanna was kind, funny, and just a gift. She talked about how God is not bound by the courtroom when it comes to justice, and judgment ultimately belongs to him. Quote, for your sake, I hope one day you can feel the full weight of what you did. End quote. She encouraged him to surrender himself to Jesus Christ. And because no punishment ultimately compared to the eternal separation from God. She talked about how Zanna was a fighter. So is she. And she walks with the comfort of knowing she will eventually see her sister in heaven, but in the meantime, she won't be able to be a maid of honor at her wedding and play with her future children. And she's just left with trying to fight to be someone Zanna would be proud of. Next came her dad, Jeff Kernodle. He talked about there was a hard road because she's gone. There was a story he told that really broke my heart. He talked about flying up there on an airplane to go to the sentencing hearing. And he's kind of drifting off to sleep on this airplane. There's a little girl on the airplane, and she starts turning to her dad and saying, daddy, Daddy. For a second, he thought of when Santa was a little girl and would be calling for her, miss something. So he, like, woke up confused. Like, that's just so hard. That's so these people didn't deserve to go through this. Talked about how she made such a big impact, and people have reached out to him saying, you know, she. They didn't know her, but they wish she could have been their friend. She seems like a lovely girl. They could have hung out. He was so excited for her to figure it all out, but she never got to finish college. Of course, how this has impacted the college community. People lock their doors now. He talked about how he almost went over there. He regrets not going. The reason he didn't was because Zanna said she wasn't feeling well. So he wanted to go over to help her with that. But she told him, you've been drinking. Don't drink and drive. And he said he wishes he had, because if he'd been on the couch, maybe they would have had a chance to get away from this guy. So Kim Kernodle, Zanna's aunt, came next. Talked about how she's blessed to have her niece in her life. She tries to always look for the positive because she knows evil and hate can destroy people. And Xana was such a fun, loving, high spirited, beautiful person. Now they can't get their nails to get done together anymore. But. But she said the families are united and stronger than ever. And she said she forgave the killer. She can't live with the hate anymore. She has to forgive him. And if he, if he ever wants to talk, she asks him to contact her. There are questions that she has that she wants to ask him. Sparky Kernodle, Zanna's uncle, talked about feeling the pain from everybody who spoke previously that every time you hear a family member speak, he would feel it tug in his center core. And the anguish was just overwhelming. He said, instead of rehashing everybody's points, I'm gonna make one of my own. He talked about how for the killer, his friends, siblings, parents, his whole universe has been contaminated. He's tainted his family name. He's made just it a horrible, miserable thing to even be connected or related to him. And that's all he had to say. Randy Davis was Anna's stepfather. Talked about how he's met some new families. He turned to the gallery at this point to address the other families and said, basically, this may be the last time all of us are in a room together. I love you and God bless us all. Let's get through it. He said he had stuff he wrote up, but he doesn't want to read it out. He probably would get kicked out if he did. And he said, I'm addressing you guys to the gallery, not you pointing at the killer. He talked about how Jasmine, Zanna, there was a funny memory he wanted to share where they'd taken their brother, his son Elijah, and put him in a dress and makeup. But when he got home from South Dakota, he saw it and he was like, oh my gosh. They would just do silly antics and things. And he said, quote, this evil thing is not going to take nothing from us. End quote. He said, I don't know what my limits are. I'm really struggling, dude. I just want to be. He said he basically wanted to take this guy out into the woods and teach him about loss and pain. Not that he would kill him, just teach him about loss and pain. And he said, I Guarantee you are weak and you are going to go to hell. You're evil. There's no place for you in heaven. You are going to suffer, man. He's shaking as he's talking and he says, I hope you. I can't like, I'm not going to make a move on you, but I hope you feel my energy. Go to hell. Very powerful. Karen Northington, Zanna's mother, also spoke. She talked about her beautiful daughter Zanna, who was beautiful inside and out. She said she forgives the killer through Christ. Quote, the Lord filled me with joy, hope and peace that surpasses all understanding, end quote. That Jesus Christ has allowed her to forgive this murderer without him even being remorseful at all. And, um, she quoted scripture. She said, I do not fear you. She said, I don't want to let you rent space in my head. She read Ephesians 6 from the king James Bible, which is finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of his might, put on the whole armor of God and that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness and wickedness in high places. Wherefore take you under the whole armor of God that ye may be able to withstand the evil day. And having done all to stand. She takes a long pause. She's sniffling. She said she doesn't want to share her memories of Zanna or any moments of goodness with this guy and. But she said she will pray for him and pray for him to ask for forgiveness from the God. In the meantime, she will wash her hands. There's nothing from the chapins again, they may have nothing to say to this person. He took away their son. What is there to say? But I can also understand and respect everyone who did talk. So it's just different. So what do you think about all that? I gave you a lot to process. I'm sitting here watching this crying. At one point, I kind of like pumped my fist when some of the Gonsalves were saying what they had to say. It was powerful. Everyone really did an amazing job speaking.
- [56:13]
Kevin Greenlee
It sounds like it was quite an intense experience. And I'm sorry I wasn't here to give you a hug.
- [56:21]
Anya Cain
Aw, thanks, babes. I was just thinking, like, I don't know, these poor people, they didn't deserve it. None of these young people who lost their lives did. The young people who survived didn't. It's just like, just so senseless. This stupid, awful fool who did this. So next, Bill Thompson, the longtime Lato county prosecutor, took the stand. He asked to push off, like, restitution. I think there's, like, something about, like, payment and whatnot. There's no objection for that from Ann Taylor. And he talked about how this killer was not coerced to make admissions. He said that Hitler did a great job taking pleas and appreciated the court's discipline and insight. And this killer has waived a multitude appeal on a multitude of rulings on dozens of motions seeking to dismiss the case. I wanted to ask you about that. So. So basically, like, he would have been able to, like, appeal on, like, anything brought up throughout this whole pretrial. And, you know, if there had been.
- [57:23]
Kevin Greenlee
A trial process, yeah, he could have taken a shot. But he made this agreement basically waiving his right to appeal.
- [57:31]
Anya Cain
Can you emphasize how big of a deal that is?
- [57:34]
Kevin Greenlee
That is a huge deal, and it gives, really, a lot of security and peace to the families. Because we on the outside often tend to think of a guilty verdict as the end of a story. But for the families involved, who are a real part of it, they have to worry about these appeals. Because people can try to file appeals for almost anything and take a shot. And the process can last for years. Think, for instance, of Jeffrey McDonald, who famously murdered his family over 50 years ago. Appeals in that case went on for decade after decade. So it's really. It's one less thing for the families to have to worry about. And if I were in that position that they're in, I feel it would make it easier for me to move on, knowing that this chapter is definitely closed.
- [58:35]
Anya Cain
Yeah, I would be like, I would want this person thrown into the shadows where I never have to think about them again. And part of the revenge is never having to think about them again. I can understand wanting to kill somebody, though. I can understand wanting somebody to be executed for what they did to your child or your sister or your brother. But in the reality that we live in, that takes forever and adds to the appeals. So again, my heart went out to the Gonsalvases and the Kernodles. I believe they both were disappointed in the lack of a death penalty and that some of the letters reflected that. And I think people, when I said, please don't contact the judge or that's embarrassing, thought I was talking about them. I'm not. They're entitled to feel however they want to feel. And if they want to be mad or rage against this or that, that's Understandable. I do have a problem with true crime people sort of becoming a mob and harassing a judge, though. I have a problem with the people in the public who are just doing whatever that's not responsible. But as far as grieving people reacting angrily online when they get news that's unwelcome after they've been through the worst thing, I'm not going to judge them. I mean, they've been through hell. They've been through absolute hell. You know, if, if, you know, I, I guess, like, it's just, I. They're in a different category for me because they've just been through the worst of the worst and they're entitled to their feelings, in my view. I just think people who are observers shouldn't be just doing things that are reckless either way. So he talked about how, you know, he actually gave some more insights into how the plea came about. And this gets into some interesting legal territory. He talked about how, you know, June 18th, remember this? This was pretty recent. There were arguments about the defendant's, you know, final motions to the court where he was suggesting others were responsible for what he did. Do you remember that? Remember that third party defense? Remember that? All you true crime cranks, where they're all acting like, ooh, it's a big day, and know the third party. Yeah, no, no, he just did it when it went like the Lucy with the football kind of thing, where it's like, you know, everything's a conspiracy. Right. But they talked about how Thompson said that, you know, around then, you know, there was this first consideration that there was any possible plea because the defense had always maintained that he was factually innocent. Can you talk about that? Because I think it was pretty obvious for a lot of people, us included, that this guy was very likely guilty early on because of the evidence against him, because it wouldn't make any sense for his DNA to be at the scene.
- [61:08]
Kevin Greenlee
So you're asking why?
- [61:09]
Anya Cain
Why? So, but like, you know, I guess I'm just like, sometimes I think I hear people in true crime being like, wow, the defense is going with factual innocence. That's really powerful. Can you talk about how? Like, that's just kind of. I mean, that's normal, right? I mean, they have to do that.
- [61:22]
Kevin Greenlee
That's absolutely normal. You wouldn't expect defense attorneys to argue against themselves or give up good negotiating positions. If you go into a situation and say, well, we all know he's guilty, what do you think? Insanity, you're not really going to get good offers from the prosecutor. So you act as if you have a stronger hand than you do. You don't negotiate against yourself, you can't.
- [61:54]
Anya Cain
Suborn perjury, but otherwise you have a lot of incentive to just be like, no, it's factual innocence. I mean, and that's normal. And that's a good defense attorney's job. I really do feel, I know some people were annoyed by her. I really do feel Ann Taylor handled this in an impressive way to the point where she got her client to not be executed. Because I think that was a possible outcome had this gone to trial. So there's that, but there's also, you know, like, that's a defense attorney's job. But I guess members of the public needn't be overawed by that strategy. I remember when that happened in the Richard Allen case in Delphi, there was a lot of like, wow, I can't believe they're emphasizing actual innocence. And then they came out with this, like, poorly hashed together ramshackle theory of a cult did it. And it was like, you know, just because people are really being like, chest thumping about factual innocence doesn't really mean anything about the strength of the defense's case. Like anything, it's strategic. In some cases it might be a big deal where they have a really good third party suspect who really might have done it and they're saying, this guy didn't do it, he's an innocent guy. That's fine. That can be, that can show strength from the defense, but it can also just be like, that's what they're going to do. So, so anyways, Thompson continues. He talked about how, you know, the following weekend, you know, so after this kind of initial thing from the defense sort of seem seeing like, okay, is there a plea offer on the table? They, you know, he felt it was because the reality of the evidence and the strength of their case became a reality for the defendant. He said the prosecutor, prosecution team met with representatives from the families virtually and talked about the status of the case, you know, going to trial and let them know about a possible inquiry, about an offer for a plea, and asked them for their thoughts and feelings. And they were all candid. And he said they've been, quote, they've been candid since. And we respect that and we understand, recognize and acknowledge that there was a difference in opinion among representatives of the different families, end quote. From what I can garner, it was the Chapins and Mogans being pro plea deal and the Kernodles and the Consolvases being anti plea Deal. Although, frankly, you can imagine that people on both sides within those families may have different opinions. It's just not clear. I'm generalizing here. Just from what was reported, he said that the following weekend, the prosecution team all met and how that they're all very professionally and personally invested in this situation and how they reached a decision. Were there to be a plea offer, Only one possibility. And that would be plead guilty to all charges, straight up, no bargaining about counts, reduced sentences. So they made that offer to the defense. What do you think about their offer, Kevin, that offer from the prosecution? Why they would go that route of just like, that's it. Plea, plead guilty to everything, straight up. We're not messing around. We're not dancing around with you about giving you, you know, reduced sentences. Like, what. What does that show you about the prosecution's hand in this?
- [65:01]
Kevin Greenlee
It shows the prosecution had a very strong hand, and they knew it. And they weren't going to give the killer a good deal. They weren't going to do anything that would make his incarceration shorter. I think at the end of the day, they were primarily concerned with locking him up for the rest of his life, and that's what they did.
- [65:25]
Anya Cain
Yeah. And again, it's a complicated situation. They're going to be disappointing half the families if it goes through. They're going to be making half of the families very happy. Ultimately, they have to consider all that, and they have to serve the people of Lato county, and they have to do what they think is right. I read an article from the Idaho Statesman that talked about Thompson. He often does plead, plead, you know, have a plea deal in cases of death penalty. So this is not really out of part. You know, this is not really different for him. It's not like he did something really out of character. Um, and that makes sense because I think the death penalty. Just like we talked about strategies for the defense, that can be a strategy for the prosecution. If you have a defendant who's very much trying to avoid a death penalty and feels the case against them is good, they're probably going to be more likely to negotiate. So he talked about how it was really important for them not to be, like, super loud about the. These plea negotiations, because for both sides, if it got out that there was a plea, that was a possibility, but then it never happened, and that got out to a jury pool that would be devastating for possibly both sides. Can you talk about that? What does he mean by that? What's wrong with a jury pool knowing, hey, they tried to Do a deal and then it didn't work out.
- [66:42]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, I mean, think of how you would feel if you go in and as a prospective. Pardon me. If you go in as a prospective juror and you hear, oh, this man is presumed innocent. But by the way, he was thinking about pleading guilty. That would make you think, well, he must be guilty, because why would he be interested in taking a plea? So that's the reason why you keep that information from jurors. It's an attempt to ensure that the juror's perception of the defendant is kind of a clean slate.
- [67:17]
Anya Cain
Exactly. So he. He. This is where Thompson really started to choke up. I felt his voice was shaking. He talked about how. He talked about, quote, these fine, suffering people. He acknowledged that some of them were really unhappy about the deal. He talked about, that's my responsibility. He, you know, that was ultimately his call, and he understands some people were upset about it, and he owns that, and that's on him. I thought that was a lot of grace again. I talked about how Steven Gonzalez, I felt, showed grace. The prosecution, he was showing grace back again. It's one of those things where I feel like no one's necessarily wrong in how they feel. It's just sometimes these things happen where not everyone's going to be completely satisfied with the situation, but everyone's kind of got to do what they see as right. So he talked about how he wanted to basically impose the final judgment on this killer and close the door, and close the door on the chapter of this immense tragedy. He wanted 10 years fixed in for the burglary and then life without the possibility of parole, no possibility of appeals for the four murders. He was. I think he was actually, like, crying as he was talking. You can tell that this person, this. This prosecutor really definitely cared a lot and put a lot of this of himself into this prosecution. As he was listing out the counts, he turned off. I loved this so much. I mean, it was. It was a bit. We know that criminal attorneys on both sides have a bit of the theater in them, right? Like, they. They do things that are kind of supposed to elicit a reaction, but damn, did this elicit a reaction. I mean, he turned off the camera facing the killer, the one that really centered him, and that went black. And I was like, what's going on? And then he put on a projector. First a picture of Maddy Mogan, just a beautiful young girl posing in front of a tree. Then Kaylee in front of a lovely springtime background. Zanna holding flowers. He's choking up saying their names. People are sobbing in the background. And. And then lastly, Ethan, who's just smiling, crossing his arms, and asked for life, for each to run consecutively back to back, not at the same time, quote, to recognize and respect the unique individuality of each of these beautiful young people whose lives were taken with brutality and for no reason, end quote. The killers. He just seemed more sunken at this point, more weird mouth movements and turning his eyes to the side. He quoted a justice at the Idaho Supreme Court who was previously a judge at Lato County, John Stegnert, who observed that even God cannot change the past. He says everyone in the room has the ability to take themselves forward. I feel like he was giving some insider advice to the families gathered and to the friends gathered. And he talked about the families of these four young people, but he also talked about another family. And he showed a picture of the four victims and the two surviving roommates all together on November 12, 2022. They're all smiling. They look so happy. They're all hanging out. He talked about how it was a very special family of Friends at 1122 King Road. I mean, again, he's tearing up here. Talked about how they were all dynamic, vibrant, loving, special and innocent. And they were 12 hours that from that photo, four of them would be brutally murdered in their sleep. And Hitler was dabbing his eyes. He said, they remain, though, even though four of them are gone, they remain a special family that we should all recognize and appreciate. He has nothing to direct at the defendant. And he just had one last thought. He said he hoped, you know, he wants this man to die in prison like they will never see the light of day again. And that he's going to be stood up, walked out with his belly chains and leg irons, and he's going to go to the Idaho Department of Correction, and the door will close behind him forever. And they want that closure for everyone, for everyone involved. So there were no arguments from the defense. Can barely hear. Ann Taylor. At this point, the killer is offered an opportunity to say his piece. And what can that look like, Kevin, when you have a killer maybe speak at one of these. After hearing about the horrific impact of their crimes from everyone else, it can.
- [72:06]
Kevin Greenlee
Be really fascinating to hear. And no one will know precisely what he might say. But obviously today, I know there's a lot of interest. A lot of people hoped he would say something. A lot of people were hoping for some kind of an explanation, but of course, he kept silent.
- [72:27]
Anya Cain
Yeah, that's exactly right. And judge. Judge Hippler has some words of insight that I think we should all hear, because I'm the kind of person where I think in the beginning, I would have been like, oh, I really want to hear what he says. And I'm so curious. And that curiosity made me, you know, want to be okay with starting a true crime podcast with you. So I understand it. I get it. But as I've. As we've done more and more cases, at some point you just sort of get to the point where it's like, I don't think it really matters that much, and I don't think we're going to hear anything that's really that insightful from a person like this. So it was Hitler's turn next, so. Oh, no, I'm sorry. Let's get back to what the killer said. So he's given this opportunity and he says, quote, I respectfully declined. He just sounds like a weird loser. I'm sorry. Like, just hearing his voice was just like, made me irritated after all of this. It was like, I respectfully declined. Like, whatever, just get lost so we never have to think you think of you again. Judge Steven Hippler starts by acknowledging and thanking all of the people there, everyone who spoke, the courage and the strength. He thanks counsel from both sides for their professionalism. He said it was a great honor to preside in this case and help bring some resolution and to the extent possible, justice. He said. During the quiet morning hours of November 13, 2022, a faceless coward breached the tranquility of six beautiful young people and senselessly slaughtered four of them. Due to the killer's incompetence and outstanding police work by state, local and federal authorities, they were able to get him pretty quickly. He talked about how he slithered through the glass door into the house, how he was unmasked today, sitting before them in his little orange jumpsuit, and that he had committed an unfathomable and senseless act of evil. He talked about how these parents took their children to college in moving trucks and then took them back in hearses. He talked about he was not going to be saying his name. Oh, no, he didn't say that, but he wasn't saying his name. And I loved that. He talked about how a soul was a hole was ripped in the souls of all these people, destroying a special part of their very essence. Any parent defines themselves as a parent. It's their purpose. It's their huge part of their being, and that was stolen from these parents. He said that there's been a media circus Demanding retribution. Just like a mess. And the surviving witnesses were put through it. Quote, I can't. And this is about the surviving witnesses. Quote, I can't think of how courageous they have been, despite the hell they faced by uncaring people who've come out with all kinds of crazy theories about two kids simply being kids. End quote. Yes. Looking at you crazy true crime people, like, we don't need you. Like, we need to isolate these people so they can't do it to people in future cases. It's getting the point of witness tampering, but it's also just senseless cruelty, and we need to see it as such. I think a lot of this stuff we would never tolerate in our lives. Like, if you saw someone being that awful to someone in person, you'd be like, get away from the Starbucks barista and leave them alone. But because it's some people we don't know online, we sit back and we're bystanders. We need to stop being bystanders. We need to start calling this stuff out. Sorry, I just kind of. This really bothers me. He talked about how the public has, quote, the need to know what is inherently not understandable, and that just fuels the killer, giving him spotlight. The spotlight, lots of attention, and the power, quote, he appears to crave. He said, I can't force the killer to speak legally. Can you talk about that? Why can't the judge who seems all powerful just snap his fingers and say, killer, tell us why you did this? Why can't he do that?
- [75:58]
Kevin Greenlee
Human beings have rights, and you can't force someone to speak in court. There are certain constitutional rights all Americans have, and those can't be hands waved away or fingers snapped away just because a lot of us have certain curiosities.
- [76:16]
Anya Cain
Because we really, really, really want to know. It's good that the system is like this. It may be frustrating in instances where we really want to know, but it's better that it's like this because no one. You don't want to torture someone to tell you anything. Like. Like, there's, like. It's just. It may seem imperfect sometimes, but when you look at the alternative, it's way better than that. Right? Like. Like, I think sometimes people are like, oh, man, I wish they could just make him tell. And I'm like, I get that right. We all want to know on some level. There's a curiosity, but at what cost? And if the cost is violating everybody's, like, civil rights at all times, you know, it. That's not a good reason so he talked about, and this is also. He summed up exactly what I was thinking. So Hitler said, you know, even if this guy is forced to speak, somehow he can't do it. But even if he was speaking, how could anyone know if he was telling the truth? Like, do we really believe anything this guy would say after what he did, after what he did to these kids and after how he's tried to slither away? He said he says he felt that instead of getting the truth, we'd get a bunch of untruthful bits that were designed to leave people wanting more information. And he says he really hopes that people kind of just forget about this guy, that they're not using him for clicks, for royalties, for profits, that it's not the exclusive interview with the Idaho Killer. He wants criminal behavioralists to study him away from the spotlight in a professional, academic manner. He talked about how there's some quote from a judge he said, where it was like he tried to think of something nice about every defendant he had, and one of them was only that he had good penmanship. And he said, in this case, he was really struggling to say anything good about this killer because he'd just seen no remorse, no redemption, no regret. And so he gave exactly what the state asked for. He was fined $50,000 for each victim with a $5,000 thing to go to the family of that victim and had a fixed term of life imprisonment with no parole and 10 years fixed for the burglary. The killer was just blank. And he talked about, like, okay, normally I'd say appeals here, but the appeals may be in violation of a plea agreement, so discuss that with your counsel. He asked for everyone to let the families go out first before they leave, meeting the media and the public. And he thanked everyone for their stories. Quote, I'm encouraged by your humanity and strength, and God bless you, end quote. I just want to say God bless Judge Hippler. I thought he did a really terrific job throughout this whole arduous process. And I thought the council did well, too. And my heart breaks for these people. I'm sorry I got so emotional talking about it. Watching it online was very upsetting. I, we need to be, we need to do better in true crime, for, for, like, witnesses in this situation and families in, in other situations. But, but definitely. I don't know, I, I, I really Keep these people in your prayers or your good thoughts or however you believe and try to. Let's try to focus on Kaylee, Ethan, Zanna, and Madison. You know, they're what matter here? The killer doesn't matter. And if I hope that behavioralists and criminologists study him and are able to get some insights on what went wrong with him. Right. Why did a guy who seemingly had, you know, the ability to do well in some areas of his life, why did he decide to do something so incredibly evil and awful? But we don't need a podcaster isn't going to capture that. You know, a documentary special isn't going to capture that. Let's just let him fade into the darkness where he belongs and let's celebrate the young people who just were taken too soon. Like, let's put our attention there. I would really encourage all of us to do that. And let's acknowledge that it doesn't matter why he did it. He had no gr. I mean, there's no reason to do it. There's no, like, reason that's going to make it make sense. Anything he says should be treated with suspicion and it doesn't really get us any closer to understanding anything. So what are your thoughts, Kevin, after hearing me ramble?
- [80:33]
Kevin Greenlee
Well, I really appreciate you sharing with me and everyone listening the stories these people told about the loved ones they lost because those are the ones that should be remembered.
- [80:50]
Anya Cain
Absolutely. Well, thank you all for listening. I really appreciate you putting up with my rambling and crying and whatnot. And, you know, take care.
- [80:59]
Kevin Greenlee
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [81:20]
Anya Cain
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www.buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.
- [81:43]
Kevin Greenlee
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [81:55]
Anya Cain
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. So we want to shout out one of our wonderful sponsors right now, and that sponsor is Happy Mammoth. This is a wonderful Natural wellness brand. We've been using it and it's been terrific. They're a great solution if you feel like you might be dealing with some hormone disruptors. I mean, that kind of happens to everyone. It's in the air, it's in the food, it's in lots of different products.
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Kevin Greenlee
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Anya Cain
Yeah, for me, it's. I mean, I get cranin nuts about my cravings sometimes. I will, you know, suddenly really want Macintosh apples, which aren't even in season, and various other things. We all know I've been stealing a lot of cereal recently, or allegedly, I should say. And so to kind of help beat that, I've been using their hormone Harmony supplement. It's just a supplement. You take it a couple of times, you know, couple doses. And I feel like it's boosted my gut health, to be honest. It's also something that women who are in perimenopause or menopause, they can use it and it's going to reduce your hot flashes. You're going to have more energy, get to sleep better. So it's really good for women of all ages. But for me, the gut health element of it has been really special. So if you're interested for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first order@happy mammoth.com just use the code M sheet at checkout. That's happy mammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off. Today we're obsessed with our quince pieces. Is that fair to say?
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Kevin Greenlee
That's fair to say. What is Quint's Quince is a company. It lets you get really high quality clothing for very affordable prices.
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Anya Cain
They do that because they basically cut out the middleman. You're just getting cut him right out. Yeah, they're getting it from the artisans. They're giving it to you. It's wonderful. It's going to be 50 to 80% less than those of their competitors. And you're just going to get some wonderful things. We recently went shopping to get some summer styles. We'd previously gotten some winter styles, but we wanted to update, so we went on quints and we both got something. Let's talk about what we got. I got this wonderful a hundred percent European linen dress. It's a button front dress and it's in blue chambray stripe. I love this dress. I'm picky about dresses because, like, I feel like I'm have a weird shaped body and sometimes they cut me off in a weird way. This one just fits like a dream. I love the way it fits. It is very much a classic sort of style. So I'm not worried about it going out of style in like two minutes and then I'm looking foolish. It just looks like something I can wear for years and years. I know I'm going to be wearing this dress a lot this summer.
- [84:39]
Kevin Greenlee
I got a great shirt. I can't paint word pictures like you do, but I'm very happy with the shirt. I've gotten compliments on the shirt. It's a comfortable shirt.
- [84:48]
Anya Cain
For anyone who is interested in learning more about the, the products that we purchased, he got a hundred percent European linen utility shirt in martini olive. So I think it looks really cute. I think that you look very cute in it. So I love it.
- [85:02]
Kevin Greenlee
And keep watching our Facebook page because we will probably, if I convince her, take a picture of Anya wearing her dress and her beret.
- [85:11]
Anya Cain
Oh, I got a beret too, because Kevin insists on me buying new hats. So I got a little blue beret and I, yeah, I, I just really. Quint is one of those brands. I just love working with them because it's just stuff that I love to kind of come back to and keep buying because I love what they're doing, I love how ethical they are and I know that they're going to get me quality pieces fast. And with their wonderful return policy, you can try on different things. Make sure the sizing's right for you. And it's just a great deal for murder sheet listeners. So give your summer closet an upgrade with quince. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.commsheet.