The Viper Pit Dynasty

Summary

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet Episode - "The Viper Pit Dynasty"

Introduction

In the August 7, 2025 episode of Murder Sheet, hosts journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee engage in an in-depth conversation with Waffles and Coffee, the dynamic duo behind the true crime podcast The Viper Pit. This episode delves into the challenges within the true crime podcasting space, critiques of existing shows, ethical considerations, and the collaborative efforts to foster a more responsible true crime community.

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Guest Introduction: The Viper Pit

At [04:00], Áine Cain welcomes Waffles and Coffee to Murder Sheet, highlighting their role as hosts of The Viper Pit, a podcast known for its critical perspective on other true crime shows. Waffles and Coffee introduce themselves, explaining the origins of their podcast:

• Waffles: "First of all, we go by weird breakfast food names... we turned it into this crazy, fun community."
• Coffee: "We were just doing it for our friends. Like, seriously, 40 people..."

---

Origins and Purpose of The Viper Pit

At [05:20], Waffles and Coffee discuss how their casual group chat evolved into a podcast. They emphasize their mission to critique and call out what they perceive as shortcomings in other true crime podcasts:

• Waffles: "Our passion is calling out other podcasters that really fucking suck. And there's so many of them..."
• Coffee: "They just think everybody's innocent. I don't think they're harmless or nothing."

They recount their initial focus on Bob Ruff's podcast endeavors, which they found problematic, setting the tone for their critical approach.

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Critique of Existing True Crime Podcasts

Throughout the discussion, Waffles and Coffee express frustration with mainstream true crime podcasts, particularly those that lack depth or exhibit biases. They provide specific examples:

• Coffee on Touched by Crime: "It's like how they relate to the murderer with minor details... It's pathetic."
• Waffles on True Crime Binge by Bob Ruff: "He just ripped off Serial by calling his podcast Serial Dynasty."

Their critiques center on perceived deficiencies such as surface-level analysis, lack of accountability, and fostering biased narratives.

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The Bob Ruff Saga

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Bob Ruff, a prominent figure in the true crime podcasting community. Waffles and Coffee share their antagonistic experiences:

• Coffee: "Bob Ruff is the host of the podcast Truth and Justice... he ripped off Serial by calling his podcast Serial Dynasty."
• Kevin Greenlee: "A lot of people don't know anything about Temujin Kinzu, and that didn't stop them from reporting on it."

They recount instances where Bob Ruff failed to engage constructively with their efforts to challenge his perspectives, leading to tensions:

• Coffee: "We invited him to our show, but he never responded. Then he started acting like we ghosted him."
• Anya Cain: "It was such a ridiculous situation... we've been doxed before."

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Handling Threats and Doxing in the True Crime Space

The hosts candidly discuss the darker side of true crime podcasting, including doxing and threats:

• Waffles: "We have children... if we're being doxed, they have access to our kids."
• Anya Cain: "We've been doxed before... it's unacceptable."

They emphasize the emotional and personal toll these threats take, highlighting the need for supportive communities and secure practices within the podcasting sphere.

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Ethical Standards in True Crime Podcasting

Anya and Kevin express concerns over ethical lapses in the genre, advocating for higher standards:

• Anya Cain: "I would like to see newspaper-like standards in true crime. A baseline of behavior we don't tolerate."
• Coffee: "We're using clips and providing full context. It's irresponsible to speculate without evidence."

They argue for responsible reporting, fact-checking, and the importance of not perpetuating false narratives about victims or suspects.

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Interaction Between Murder Sheet and The Viper Pit

The episode highlights a symbiotic relationship between Murder Sheet and The Viper Pit, fostering mutual support and collaboration:

• Coffee: "Big shout out to Bear Claw on that... Bob was very mad, but it worked out better for us."
• Anya Cain: "We're friends with them now... It's a breath of fresh air."

They acknowledge how their criticisms inadvertently boosted The Viper Pit's visibility, turning a contentious relationship into a collaborative one.

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Promoting a Better True Crime Community

Both podcasts advocate for a more logical, ethical, and supportive true crime community. They discuss strategies to combat misinformation and foster critical thinking among listeners:

• Waffles: "We just want people to think logically. Don't fall into believing everything you hear."
• Anya Cain: "By making fun of the nonsense, we're providing a cathartic space for listeners to express their frustrations."

They stress the importance of creating platforms where nuanced discussions can take place without the perpetuation of harmful myths or biases.

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Notable Quotes

• Kevin Greenlee [02:08]: "Warning this episode contains quite a bit of cursing as well as quite a bit of discussion about a variety of crimes."
• Anya Cain [03:21]: "We really hope you enjoy our interview with Coffee and Waffles... The Murder Pit is a lot of fun."
• Coffee [07:50]: "Some of them, it's... they're fun though. Like, I don't even."
• Waffles [10:31]: "Basically, we just want people to think logically. We're not trying to stop anybody from podcasting..."
• Anya Cain [12:22]: "I feel like true crime podcasts are in such a state because... I have a hard time figuring out, why so many podcasts are so mediocre."

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with mutual appreciation between Murder Sheet and The Viper Pit, reinforcing their commitment to elevating true crime podcasting standards. They encourage listeners to engage critically with content, support ethical storytelling, and participate in their respective communities for a more informed and responsible approach to true crime.

• Kevin Greenlee [99:12]: "It really was tough for us... you guys are a breath of fresh air."
• Áine Cain [107:29]: "We think it's really important to call out bad behavior in true crime."

The hosts reiterate the importance of integrity, community support, and the continuous pursuit of truth within the complex landscape of true crime storytelling.

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Murder Sheet offers listeners a candid exploration of the internal dynamics of true crime podcasting, the ethical challenges faced by creators, and the collaborative efforts required to foster a community grounded in logic and accountability. Through their engaging dialogue with Waffles and Coffee, Áine Cain and Kevin Greenlee underscore the importance of critical engagement and ethical responsibility in narrating true crime stories.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Waffles]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

Warning this episode contains quite a bit of cursing as well as quite a bit of discussion about a variety of crimes.

[Anya Cain]

Including murder.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Including murder. We take crime back very, very seriously. But sometimes some of the stuff around crime, some of the insanity around true crime, podcasting and things of that ilk, it can drive you so crazy that sometimes you need to laugh about it, and sometimes laughing about it and making fun of it can actually be empowering.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, absolutely. And honestly, sometimes the best, best medicine for seeing just people behave in outrageous ways in the true crime space is laughing at them and encouraging others to do so too. Maybe that's how we affect some change.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I agree completely. And with all that in mind, one podcast that Anya and I really, really enjoy is called the Viper Pit, which is hosted by Waffles and Coffee.

[Anya Cain]

Absolutely. So in this episode, we invited them to come on, and we chatted about a whole range of topics in true crime, and we cursed a lot. We did. Swears. Sorry. So if you don't like that, then.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Don'T listen to this episode, but still check them out. I also should say that during this episode, we make reference to Temu, and that is the name that the Viper Pit has given to one Temujin Kinzu, who has been a subject of a great deal of discussion on this program, and. And they have also done some good work on that case.

[Anya Cain]

We really hope you enjoy our interview with Coffee and Waffles. And we think that you guys should definitely check out their podcast. The Viper Pit is a lot of fun. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet, and this is the Viper Pit dynasty.

[Anya Cain]

First of all, Coffee and Waffles want to welcome you both to the Murder Sheet. Thank you guys so much for joining us today.

[Coffee]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Waffles]

Hello, darlings.

[Anya Cain]

Yay. We're really, really excited to do this. We've been wanting to do this for a long time, and so we're thrilled.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can you tell us about yourselves and the Viper Pit for people who have had the misfortune of not hearing it?

[Waffles]

First of all, we go by weird breakfast food names, and that was such a. It was an incredible journey to. From Waffles and I just being friends, making silly nicknames for each other, and we turned it into this crazy, fun community.

[Coffee]

Yeah. So the. The stupid breakfast names, they started. Me and her were. We just. We were just dming on messenger when we first started becoming friends a few years ago. And I. I had noticed that you could do nicknames on there, and I was like, hey, you can do nicknames on here. You want to just think of stupid nicknames? And she was like, yeah. And then what Was your nickname gonna be like Chevelle or something?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Coffee]

And I was like. I said, stupid nicknames.

[Waffles]

He said, you need to dumb it down.

[Coffee]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's whenever I suggested, like coffee and waffles. I don't know why I suggested that. I just thought maybe you gave me waffles. I can't remember. But it was just screenshots to prove it. All right. It was just the stupid Facebook messenger thing. And then we decided we were gonna do a podcast and thought it would be better just to stay anonymous because we didn't think anybody was gonna listen to this, or if they did, or if they did, they wouldn't like it or whatever. So I was like. And we were just doing it for our friends. Like, seriously, 40 people that we have. The. The original Viper Pit group on Facebook was just basically what we do on a podcast, but it was on Facebook and it just. I don't know, we got shared once and then shared again. And then like this one dude that hates us shared the living out of us. And then we got a lot. People started listening to it and didn't really expect that, but I'm just a guy. I'm 43. I'm at the age I just the other day I was like, am I 43? I couldn't remember if I was 42 or 43. I'm raising a 14 year old monster. Still. Still in bed. It's one o' clock summer. I don't know. I work a regular job. Not too much special about me.

[Waffles]

Yeah, we both work full time jobs, but our passion is calling out other podcasters that really fucking suck. And there's so many of them, it's like never ending.

[Coffee]

Some of them, it's. They're fun though. Like, it's. I don't even. Most of them, I don't really have a grudge against. Some, I definitely do. But some of them, like, we did this one. It was touched by crime. I nicknamed it Touched by Grime. But these people, there's. I don't like, these people just really are like, you know how it is in the true crime space. There's a lot more people that just think everyone's innocent than people that are comfortable saying someone's guilty. These are those people, they just think everybody's innocent. I don't think they're harmless or nothing. I think they just. They just had a podcast and they're kind of in this one group that we have a podcast that we make fun of. They're kind of bigger known names in that group. And so we covered their podcast just for fun. So some of these we just will cover for fun. We'll make fun of them still. But there's like, no, I don't. It's not like a big grudge against them or nothing. Some of them, it is, it's just, it's. I don't know, it's just fun. We just have a good time pointing out, like, the hypocrisy and just the BS behind a lot of this stuff. Some of it gets ugly sometimes. Like, we did a.

[Waffles]

Right.

[Coffee]

We did a Instagram live of Robbie Achaudry a couple. It was a few months ago, wasn't it? Yeah. And she was kind of going in on the. The Lee family, and, and it was, it got pretty disgusting. So there is that in there. But we try to keep it fun, though. For the most part.

[Anya Cain]

I think you succeed. I will, I will say, I know you guys don't take it super seriously, but I think pointing out the hypocrisy that is rife within true crime is very welcome as far as we're concerned.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's incredibly welcome. And it's like when you see this kind of craziness, either you can pull your hair out and scream, as Anya and I often do.

[Anya Cain]

We often do.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Or you can laugh at you guys.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I think you guys are reacting in a more healthy way.

[Coffee]

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I do grind my gears a little harder on some episodes than others, but, I mean, this stuff is, like, right in front of your face. Like, you hear this stuff on podcasts, like, did they just really say that and then publish it? Like, how did that make. Make air? And then, I mean, that's really. I think it makes, I think a lot of this stuff is out there because it's been years and years and years of unchecked podcasts that just say whatever the hell they want, and nobody's really going to say anything back to them because it's like, for the most part, most people are just like, oh, that's just, you know, Robbie. I mean, Robbie Achaudry. My God, the stuff she gets away with online, it's just like, oh, that's just Rabia Queen Robbie or whatever. And then that's it. It's like, okay, I guess. And then there's like a war being fought on Reddit and Twitter and all that stuff. I don't know. It's just, it's interesting for sure.

[Waffles]

As I was explaining to Latte in our last episode, basically, we just want people to think logically. We're not trying to stop anybody from podcasting, but let's all look at it with a more logical lens and not just fall into the, I don't know, the abyss of believing everything you fucking hear.

[Coffee]

Yeah, that's another thing. We use clips. So we're gonna, if we're covering a podcast, we're gonna tell you who we're covering, what episode it is, all that stuff, and then we're, we're gonna talk about what they said, you're gonna hear what they said, and we're gonna, I mean, we're using, we're, we're not lying. There's their own words, you know. Yeah. And we're also, like I said, obviously, we're going to provide you with what, what podcast episode is so you can go back and listen to it for yourself and get the broader context of the whole conversation. And I've never really had any push back on somebody being like, hey, I went back and listened to that whole podcast, and I think you guys were wrong or whatever. So, I mean, it's just their words, and we're just talking about it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, I, I think that's, I think that's wonderful. And I, I, I'm gonna say, like, it, it, it's by. I don't know, I, I guess I'm curious, like, why do you think true crime podcasts are in such a state? Because I, I just feel like I, I've gotten really jaded. I went from someone who was just like a casual listener who to, to maybe more, you know, of a prolific listener. And then when I got into it myself, I started seeing how the sausage was made to bring the, you know, breakfast metaphor into focus and, and, like, became just disgusted with so much of this stuff again. I, I feel like I, I, it's driven, it's driven both of us crazy to see some of this. But I, I also kind of, like, I have a hard time figuring out, like, why so many podcasts are so mediocre to the point where they are kind of that abyss of logic and reason and whatnot.

[Coffee]

I, Man, I don't know. Like, I'm just still trying to put all that stuff together myself, but it seems like the world loves conspiracies and bullshit. I don't. I mean, look at the Karen Reed case.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God.

[Coffee]

I didn't follow that too heavily, but it seemed pretty cut and dry.

[Waffles]

Yeah, we decided that case was freaking boring. Yeah, it seems so obvious.

[Coffee]

Yeah.

[Waffles]

The most interesting thing about it was Turtle boy, that Was cool.

[Coffee]

And, and it looked like he's insane. Yeah. And it looked like he really did affect the jurors and. I don't know. I mean. Yeah, just the whole, his whole. His. Everything he did, all the bizarre he did worked out. So you'll definitely see that copied in the future. I just. The only thing I can think of is people don't want to believe somebody murdered someone brutally or, you know, murder someone accidentally even apparently at the very least. And they just want to think that everything's corrupt. That's like real sexy to say that the, the police are corrupt, the prosecution's corrupt, and then of course you gotta. The defense attorney always sucked in all these cases. They're corrupt too. I don't know, man. Because we cover this stuff and these people are saying all this crazy shit with their chest. There's not like. I don't know, it's. But I welcome it. It's really fun to cover.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think it's funny you mentioned that the Karen Reed case was boring and that's the reaction I have to. A lot of the cases in true crime that people want you to cover. Is that really their heart? They're not super interesting because it's pretty clear what happened, right?

[Waffles]

Yeah, exactly.

[Anya Cain]

Adnan is the classic example.

[Waffles]

Yes.

[Coffee]

The case, I mean, that case is on life support, but it will not go away. You know, it's just Ivan Bates came out and did what he did. Thank God, demolished it. Yeah. But then it's like, here we go, undisclosed, and we're going to talk about the bombshell. And we covered the bombshell. Coffee calls it the Sparkler. And I mean, you hear this thing and it's like, you knew it wasn't anything because they would have. It would have been in some courtroom somewhere a decade ago. Right. Then Colin talks about the bombshell and we hear it and we did. And another thing we did for like some episodes, we'll. We'll cover, we'll cover that podcast with the clips. Then we'll also go to social media and get the reactions and like these pro Adnan groups and stuff. And it was just so funny to read all the comments of the people. They're like, so what was the bombshell like? No, nobody could put it together, but I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

God, I, I'm curious. Like, you guys have obviously found an audience in making fun of some of this stuff. Like, do you get the sense that people or at least a sub certain segment of the true crime audience is like, sick of this shit? I mean, to Put it bluntly, I.

[Waffles]

Think they're over it. A lot of people are. And they can. They see it. And there's not really an outlet for them to express how frustrating it is.

[Coffee]

That's a good point. That's kind of what we've been. The outlet is our Facebook group. And then people listen to us and we. We get messages all the time about people that are like, oh, my God, I didn't. You know, I didn't think. A lot of people just think they. They listen to a podcast and it's pretty personal, right? People listen to an episode of a podcast and they. If they're not all over social media, they just think they're alone in their thoughts with this. Then a lot of people come across us or our Facebook group or both, and it's an outlet for them to express how ridiculous this shit is. And that's kind of it. I mean, we. We were like 44. I don't. What was the original Viper pick group? Like, 44 people or something?

[Waffles]

Yeah, I think so.

[Coffee]

And probably 25, 30 of them actually were participating in the group or whatever. So we're like. We were a small group of people that thought like this. Anyway. I didn't, like, I mean, I didn't think we were gonna. I thought, like I said, we were just doing it for fun. I thought we were just gonna have fun with it. But yeah, a lot of people since that I've never heard. I don't know. We're still pretty new to this. So, like, when people quote us and stuff, and I'm like, I don't even know who that is. You know, it's still pretty, pretty crazy. But we've seen a lot of that where people are glad to have an avenue to express how they feel about a lot of this bullshit and true crime.

[Anya Cain]

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[Kevin Greenlee]

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[Waffles]

Yeah, and I want to speak on the original Viper pit group for a second because it truly was just some friends getting together realizing Bob Ruff is full of shit. Because this is how it started was Bob Ruff and I have to say, you know how Bob is constantly saying that he. It's ordinary people. It's crowdsourced. During the Pinyon Pines case, our group of vipers came together and it was absolutely the most astonishing, amazing crowdsourced investigation in real time. It was so good. Just pointing out all the things that Bob was getting wrong.

[Coffee]

Yeah. Big shout out to Bear Claw on that. Bear Claw was all over that case file.

[Waffles]

Yes. It nearly broke Bearclaw. She almost didn't make it.

[Coffee]

The case file that we just got off of their website, it was like, I can't remember how that was obtained, but they thought we stole it somehow. What? They had it on a. It was on a website that was wide open to the public.

[Waffles]

And then we got it, Grabbed it.

[Coffee]

Yeah, and they locked the, they locked that website down. It was just. We got threatened with lawsuits and all this stuff because there was a. There was an interview in there. Somebody leaked the interview onto YouTube of one of the suspects. And it sounded like he could have said he was. It was like one of those. Was that Robert? Robert. Is it Robert Durst from the.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Coffee]

Or he's like under his breath, he's like, I killed them all or whatever. Yeah, it was like that, but it was even more muffled. You couldn't really tell. But it kind of sounded like he said he was admitting to the murders. But that got out. Man, we've had so many good moments. That was before the podcast that got out onto YouTube. I can't remember. I don't even know who got it, but it was on YouTube. And Bob was like, I had to come off my vacation for this. He was just mad because he was on assignment. Well, that's the problem is, like these people. Like, Bob is guilty of this. Every season he goes to the advocates for all the information. And when he goes in and he basically says, you know, I think they're guilt, they're innocent. And then, you know, he goes about it. So they're leaning on him to make it to where he, you know, they, they lean on him to make it look like a good advocacy piece for their loved ones that are in prison. And. But the problem with that is you were getting. You're going to be hounded by the family whenever bad shit comes out. And so he got mad because this came out and he was on vacation in Montana and I don't know, I.

[Anya Cain]

Just ruined his vacay.

[Coffee]

Yeah, we have, I could have. We have so many spin offs that we could talk about like that. But yeah, Bob Ruff was The main reason we started the podcast, Bob Ruff.

[Anya Cain]

Is like your villain origin story or I guess.

[Coffee]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Who is Bob?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, Kevin wants to know who is Bob Ruff.

[Coffee]

Yeah, Bob. Bob Ruff is the host of the podcast Truth and Justice was originally. I call him the Serial Dynasty guy. He started out.

[Waffles]

That was our first episode. Waffles was Serial Dynasty. Dynasty.

[Coffee]

So he started out doing a podcast covering Serial and undisclosed. And he called his podcast Serial Dynasty, about the worst name you could ever come up with. So eventually, before the end of season one of Serial Dynasty, he was given a cease and desist or whatever they give you, like, hey, you're not Serial. You know, so he had to change his name. And luckily for him, he came up with a pretty decent name, Truth and Justice. So, yeah, that was. The whole deal was like he just ripped off cereal and called himself Serial Dynasty.

[Anya Cain]

So we say this, like, Cereal Dynasty sounds like a breakfast cereal themed misty parody. Like, I'm imagining like Captain Crunch and like Tony the Tiger in some, like, soap opera promo pose.

[Coffee]

Yeah, like the 90s. The 90s Bulls dynasty.

[Anya Cain]

But Serial, who shot Toucan Sam? Like, oh, my God.

[Coffee]

It's a pretty. Yeah, it was pretty bad. So like I said, he ripped off Serial by calling his podcast Serial Dynasty. So our first episode was Serial Dynasty Dynasty. Because we were ripping him off and then we just. I mean, it was. It's just so much fun. The guy is pure gold. He just, like. I don't agree with pretty much everything he says, but, man, I love covering him. He's my favorite to cover. So we would just go find interviews he did and more solid gold. Like the one with Janet Varney on the JV Club. We probably call that JV Club Dynasty or something.

[Anya Cain]

We do, yeah.

[Coffee]

Yeah. So, like, everything we covered at his at first was just a dynasty. He had this one.

[Waffles]

It was ridiculous.

[Coffee]

And I think people just need to know about Bob Roof. He had this one podcast. I think it's still up. We covered it. It was called. What was that called again? The Bad, like, life coach thing. I am the. I am the storm.

[Waffles]

I am the storm.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my. Isn't it like a QAnon thing or something?

[Coffee]

It's like some church thing. Like, the devil looked at me and said, are you ready for the storm? And then the guy said, I am the storm. I don't know, something stupid. So that was the name of his podcast and it was like a beach body. I don't know. He was trying to lose weight.

[Waffles]

Pyramid scheme to sell shakes and workouts.

[Coffee]

Yeah, yeah. I don't know, but that. If you have not listened to I Am the Storm. Oh, my. Just go. Please, God, listen to that. It's only seven episodes because he gave up on it because nobody else was listening to it. But, man, it is so good. It is. He has, like, a couple videos on YouTube about how excited he was for the I Am the Storm, and he's working out at some park with dumbbells, I think. I. I love covering Bob. Rough, man.

[Anya Cain]

Kevin, can you tell him our bizarre interaction with him? Is that. Is that okay to talk about? You don't want to.

[Coffee]

Oh, sure.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why don't you?

[Anya Cain]

No, no, you're the one who had it. I wasn't in that group.

[Kevin Greenlee]

For whatever reason. I joined the Truth and Justice Facebook page years ago, even before I met Anya. I'm not even sure why. I was listening to a lot of true crime podcasts at the time, and I joined it and I was a member. I just didn't participate. And so I see everything there. And.

[Anya Cain]

And then. Do you not remember what happened? Oh, my God, he's blacking it out. So then you. Basically, there was a port. When Bob Ruff was covering Delphi, he was constantly having, like, Bob Motta on, right? People were telling him, get murder sheet on to, like, kind of counterbalance some of this stuff. Because Bob Motta is, you know, a defense advocate and they're post on his group.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Well, I've asked them to come on and they just won't respond. And I'm in the group seeing this, and I know for a fact he never did ask us.

[Coffee]

Oh, I think I remember this.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, so we, like.

[Waffles]

I remember this as well. He said that you guys ghosted him or something.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we checked our inbox. We're looking. We're like, maybe we missed it. We can't find anything. There's nothing in spam. There's nothing any anywhere.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so I post in the group, no, you didn't. You didn't invite me. And right here. I'm right here. And then he acts like, oh, isn't it odd that Kevin joined just to tell me he didn't get my invitation? Why don't you come on the group now and do the show with me.

[Anya Cain]

Now it gets worse. There was. He said, I didn't actually email you. I sent it over Instag. Which we haven't logged into our Instagram in, like, seven years. Or like, the Instagram is just completely collecting dust. So we looked there. We didn't get. We looked on our personal instagrams nothing. So then he's like, well, why don't you come on now, like. And why are you. Why are you. Why are you in here?

[Coffee]

Why are you in here?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was in there.

[Coffee]

I don't know either.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I have a policy that if you publicly lie about me, I'm not gonna go on your show.

[Coffee]

It's pretty good policy.

[Waffles]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Bye. It was just so weird because he could have just been like, oh, sure, I'll reach out to. He obviously didn't want to reach out to us and, like, just was trying to, like, bullshit his audience. It was so odd.

[Coffee]

I don't think it seemed like he was bullshitting his audience after they had been sweating them probably for a few weeks to get you guys on. And then that was kind of his reaction, I'd imagine. Yeah, like, oh, I already asked, and they're. They're ghosting me.

[Waffles]

This is a pattern, though, too, because Lisa, Brett Martinez, was trying to get in touch with Bob about the Pablo Velez case, which is one Bob did that I actually feel is innocent, and he gave it such little airtime. Anyway, Lisa tries to contact Bob over and over and over. She was ignored in emails, phone calls, text messages, and she even posted in his group, like, hey, I've been trying to contact you. And finally, after I don't even know, two years, he's like, oh, you're. You're trying to contact me?

[Coffee]

There's been a few weird instances like that with previous cases that he's covered. And, you know, he says everyone's innocent, obviously. And then the families of the victims or the. Not the victims, usually it's the ones that are in jail will try to get a hold of them, and they just don't have any success unless it's somebody like Rabia or something, you know? But I don't know. I don't know what his. His deal is with that, but I've seen that more than once, for sure.

[Anya Cain]

I was like, who's sliding into our Instagram dm?

[Coffee]

Why?

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we mentioned. We mentioned an email at the end of every episode. And in fact, I emailed him in the past because we did a show on the West Memphis Three in which we interviewed a person who indicated they thought they were guilty, and Bob Ruff famously thinks otherwise, and they criticized him for that. Yeah. And so I wrote to Mr. Ruff saying, you know, if you want to have an opportunity to come on and present your side, we'll give you the airtime. And he wrote back a very nice email saying, no, I'M not interested. Which is fine. But he has the email.

[Coffee]

Oh, yeah, good.

[Waffles]

Yeah, exactly.

[Coffee]

Good point.

[Anya Cain]

But, yeah, no, but yeah, that the Bob Ruff origin story for you guys is very funny. And I guess, like, have you. Have you had any contact with him since? Is he, like, really pissed off that you're making fun of him a lot, or is he. Is he just like, what's the situation there?

[Coffee]

It's hard to believe he doesn't know about the podcast, but we've had zero communication with the guy.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. So maybe he's in your Instagram dms. You don't know.

[Waffles]

You know, that's funny. I actually started an Instagram and there's nothing in there.

[Anya Cain]

So I don't know. Maybe waiting to start that dialogue.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's a message on MySpace.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Maybe MySpace. Carrier pigeon.

[Waffles]

Oh, on MySpace, you can have a song when people click on your page. I like that.

[Coffee]

I get the. I get the feeling, though, if we were as big as. If we were a popular podcast, he would have a problem with what we're doing, for sure. I mean, look what he did with the prosecutors. Whenever they said Adnan was guilty, he went out and did a 1716. However many episode rebuttal on that.

[Anya Cain]

He's not mad, though, you know?

[Coffee]

Right.

[Waffles]

The re. Ruffle.

[Coffee]

Oh. Which brings me. That's another funny one, too, because Bob Ruff has the. He had a podcast called True Crime Binge. Were you guys on that?

[Anya Cain]

No.

[Coffee]

No. Okay. So the prosecutors were. And I just thought it was so funny, like, to start the show, the very first thing Bob says, and welcome to the show, Brent and Alice. Of course, I had. That was why we covered that episode for sure. And I had that clip, and I was like, did he just say Brent? So a lot of times, whenever we're referencing the prosecutors, I'll call Brett. Brent.

[Waffles]

Yes. You said in the show, forever Brent.

[Coffee]

Yeah. So for that reason, he'll be Brent. And I know people that don't listen or haven't heard that episode or whatever are like, do they even know who the prosecutors are? But that's the. That's kind of the joke with that. It was just too. It was like. That's just how phoned in that whole podcast was. He had somebody going out, getting podcasters to come on the show and do an episode or whatever. And he was just. He showed up with a few. Few questions to ask. But it was good stuff.

[Waffles]

And it's worth noting that the longest episode is when he interviewed himself on that podcast.

[Coffee]

Was it the 100th episode or the 50th episode or something.

[Waffles]

I don't.

[Coffee]

There was some sort of like commemorating episode. Whether it was that or the year one year episode. It was like two hours long. And his guest was himself like in the. My God, like on the episode it'll say, you know, the prosecutors, you know what XYZ podcast. And then for his. That episode, it said bob Ruff on his own show.

[Anya Cain]

That is like an intervention.

[Coffee]

That's why I like the guy. That's why I can't look away like every. I mean, it's just not every week, but most weeks you're gonna get some gold out of that guy.

[Anya Cain]

I feel like there's some fun vibes there for sure. Like some of the other true crime nonsense you see is just like soul deadening. But that's like, that's fun.

[Coffee]

It's the. I mean, the best part about him is he. Because he takes himself so seriously. If he was. If he was. If he joked, if he. I mean, if he could take a step back and look and see and then laugh about it, we probably wouldn't be talking about the guy because it's. He's just not very self aware, you know what I mean? So the seriousness of his nature is. The joke is. Is great.

[Anya Cain]

That's delightful.

[Coffee]

Yeah, that's mainly how the viper bit started. It was really. It was a. It started out as a group chat and it was like 10, 12 people in there. And I was like, man, this is like really. It was a really. It was like my favorite group chat. I was like, we should make a Facebook page. And then we made the Facebook page and invited more people in and then the podcast and then eventually, I don't know, we were several episodes in before we even shared it. And then when we did that, people were asking for a Facebook group. So we made the Facebook group and it's kind of getting big. We almost have. I mean, I say big, but for us, big.

[Waffles]

It's not big.

[Coffee]

Real small. Anyway, great community.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Your Facebook page is a great community.

[Anya Cain]

It is.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Obviously I visit my murder sheet Facebook page, but other than that I visit very few true crime podcast Facebook pages, but I visit yours. You have a great community.

[Anya Cain]

I really like keeping it real in a meaningful way and I like that.

[Coffee]

Yeah, I mean, I just, I. We are ourselves. There's like nothing really fake. The same guy I am on the podcast is pretty much the same guy in real life. And I think the same is true with coffee. And I don't know.

[Waffles]

Definitely. I am still anonymous wolf Dog kind of embraced not being anonymous. But I'm still anonymous.

[Coffee]

Well, we got, we got doxed by someone. We found out about you, which is how we met. I believe. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Someone publicly that you guys should die and that we.

[Coffee]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And so we make clear. No, we don't support that sentiment. And who else.

[Coffee]

Thank you.

[Anya Cain]

We want them to die.

[Coffee]

Yeah. That was you. You guys just ask that person. No, no questions asked. They were out of your life.

[Waffles]

That was so amazing. You guys are true vipers. You really are.

[Coffee]

Yeah, that was a breath of fresh air because some other people were not so quick to do that and actually ended up supporting the person. So when you guys did it and you stood by it, that meant a lot. And we, we didn't. Like, I, I don't have a problem talking shit to that person and all that stuff, but I've been there, done that with that person before and I knew, I knew how they were. They're going to act. So I just let it go. And the more we let it go, the worse it got, apparently. I mean, I don't know what, it's hard to say what would happen if I said something, you know, but you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Take that sort of thing very seriously. And I, I think if you don't, you, you don't get to talk about ethics and stuff in true crime unless you live up to what you say. Even if it's no.

[Coffee]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Someone crosses a certain line of behavior, they're not going to be part of our community anymore.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, it's a situation where it's like, I'm all, you know, I mean, I, I, this is going to maybe sound somewhat cold, but like, I mean, we don't take ourselves very seriously. We take what we do seriously. And if, you know, if, if you're just kind of making excuses for behavior, you know, wherever at a certain point, you're not really living by anything. And, and I felt like that was a pretty clear cut situation where it's like, we don't need to be associated. It just, it's, I mean, it, it wasn't, it was not hard. It sucked. But it was just like, we just also felt like, why are you guys getting doxed? This is ridiculous. I mean, it was just such a ridiculous situation. We've been doxed before. We've had people post our house on like discords and like, Jesus. Yeah. Like literally nuts, you know, and so like, we've been, you know, and at the time we found it incredibly awful and traumatizing. Now we're like, whatever, you know, crazy Delphi, people want to come kill us. Go ahead. Like, you know, so you kind of stop caring. But at the same time, it's like.

[Waffles]

Kind of like, sorry, wolf dog.

[Coffee]

Oh, go ahead.

[Waffles]

Just a second. It's also the bigger issue. Like, we have children.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Waffles]

And I don't know about short stack, but latte is online now, you know, and so if we're being doxed, they have access to our kids. You know what I'm saying?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, I totally get, I mean, in our case, they only have access to our very badly behaved pit bull, Lanny. But it, but like when there's kids involved, it's like, you know, or, or just wider families. I mean, that's unacceptable. But it's like, but it just shouldn't have happened.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And we just realized, and frankly, it's terrible because you do have kids. But even if you didn't have kids, the principle is the same privacy in an unwanted and terrible way.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to tell you something. So back in the day and our moderator and I were talking about this, you know, back in the day, if you read newspaper articles, like old timey ones, a lot of the articles just sound made up because they were, people were just like, I mean, you and I were talking about that, Kevin. Like, they'd be like, oh, what if there was a earthquake in Chicago? That would be exciting. And then they'd just like write that even though it didn't happen. And like the only thing that stopped that was newspaper editors and journalists holding themselves to higher standards. And I, I, I would like to see that happen in true crime. It's not going to happen in true crime, in my view, because there's just not enough of an incentive and it's not organized enough and whatnot. But I would love to, like, we can at least take the first steps by saying, hey, there's like a baseline of behavior that we don't tolerate and that doxing people and death threats are, you know, pretty, pretty clear. Like, I don't think anyone should be pro that.

[Coffee]

I think you're correct and I don't see why it's, it's something that was just so hard for others to wrap their head around because it's like, con, like, I, I'm Joe. There's this joke. Okay, so there's what, the console. You got Jim Clemente. They're FBI profilers, right?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Coffee]

My joke is that I'm not an FBI profiler, but I'm a common sense profiler. And so like, it doesn't, like, why it's just common sense. When you see this person, like that person that did that to us. We've had interaction with them in the past before, and there's. I mean, there's some pretty. There's some pretty bad stuff about this person, and I. So that wasn't very surprising to me. But it. Just to see the people that were, like, just letting it go. Letting it go and letting it go and doing it in another Facebook group. Not. Not in yours, but another true crime Facebook group. And they didn't even want to. Like, they're breaking every rule in their Facebook group and didn't want to take action on the person more than just muting them for a few days or whatever that was. That took me back a little bit. That took me back a little bit. But, yeah, it's just common sense, you know, Just common sense. Same thing with what we point out on our podcast. Just common sense, like, logic. Just simple stuff that shouldn't be much of a. But we were talking. You're talking about, like, how the community has to evolve in, like, the old newspapers to today, and they're holding people accountable. And, like, people are babies, though. Like, whenever we hold somebody accountable for some crazy stuff they said they get this bully complex behind them. Like, they don't have to be held accountable because we're being meanies. It's just like, y' all are the.

[Anya Cain]

Ones that are wrong.

[Coffee]

Y' all are wrong, not us. You know, so if there's. It's. I don't know how to work that whole. The shift where it's just like, okay, guys, this is. We're. We're clear here. That's unacceptable behavior. Right?

[Anya Cain]

But yeah, I completely. I think you gotta go with the audience and just like, that's where the change comes in. Because I think, you know, creators, people are drawn to this. Right? Like, you can be drawn to it for very good reasons or finding community or wanting to get to the truth, or you could be drawn to it because you, you know, you want to have. You know, you want to be. Have people think you're important and hearing your voice and whatever. Right.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, the bright side, it was a terrible thing that happened. And it came also, like, right before the Delphi trial that we're going to be awfully busy.

[Anya Cain]

We're, like, about to go to the firing squad at that point.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was awful timing. It was a terrible thing that happened. But the bright side was it introduced us to your program.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we checked it out. We're like, they're. They're Great.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And, yeah, we're regular listeners and we really enjoy it.

[Coffee]

Yeah, that's kind of what I was saying earlier. That person did more. More advertising for us than they thought they were do. They thought they were going to just get rid of us, and they ended up getting us on a lot of people's radar. And so, you know, things work out sometimes. It's a weird thing that. But it works out for the better.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to tell you, if you're not pissing a lot of people off also in true crime, then you're. You probably aren't really doing it. So, I mean, you guys have definitely done that. I know we.

[Coffee]

I believe so.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Waffles]

We pissed a lot of people off.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah. No, I'm. We're. I'm very excited to go to CrimeCon this year, but I've also been joking to Kevin. I'm like, some people might try to jump us in the parking lot. I don't know. Like, we don't know.

[Coffee]

Yeah. So you. You guys. All right, I'll be honest with you. So my thing is I listen to true crime, but I really do mainly listen to the shittiest podcast of true crime.

[Waffles]

Waffles doesn't listen to good true crime.

[Coffee]

Which I haven't listened to a lot of. Murder sheet. I know you guys have three hit pieces.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Get out of here.

[Coffee]

I listened to your Team you. I listened to all of Team you stuff, and I love. I loved it. But I will tell if anybody hasn't listened to that, I don't know where you've been, but I took the journey of listening to all the advocate podcasts on Team you I could find. And then because I knew you guys, people were saying. You guys were saying he was. He was guilty and stuff. So I was like, man, this is crazy, because there's, like, so many advocate podcasts for this guy's innocence. And I took that route, and I listened to all of them, man. All of them. And I was like, man, I don't know how they're gonna find this guy guilty, dude. Like, I don't know. Before the end of the first episode, I was like, why weren't these other podcasts talking about that this, like, because all those other podcasts were either just, you know, glazing the guy, they'd have him on. I had. And, you know, the guy's Fred Freeman teamu. All his names. So I didn't even look up, like, Fred Freeman. And. Right. So then I found another podcast, and now there's another one that I just heard about on my vacation I need to listen to. But it's just. It's rinse and repeat, cookie cutter. Same on all of these podcasts that are just letting him talk his. If he's on there, or they're just talking about all these witnesses that he was 700 miles away. It's the same. And some of them claim to have parts of the case file and all this stuff, and then you guys cover it, and I'm like, none of this stuff was in these podcasts. Like, I'm not sitting here acting like I've read every. Every word of the case file, but all the stuff you guys presented that these guys didn't, that's like a major red flag, you know?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, first of all, thank you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And second of all, I really appreciate it.

[Anya Cain]

I'm going to tell you, like, I don't think many people read the entire court transcript, like. And I'm going to tell you like, I. Kevin did that. Kevin was the one who pushed for us to cover this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I didn't want to do it.

[Anya Cain]

This is your fault.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because I knew he was guilty. I've known that for a while. But I also knew that if I wanted to cover it, I'd really have to go in depth. And I knew that would be a lot of work. And I'm a very lazy, lazy man.

[Coffee]

You guys went in depth.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I just got so tired of the lies and the omissions from all the other coverage of it. And so I felt like I had a moral obligation.

[Anya Cain]

It was crazy. We were on vacation. He's like, showing me this stuff. He's getting, like, red in the face. And I was like, fudge, okay, we can do, you know, Temujin next. And it was. What was nuts was like, I was hoping to go and read everything that he read and just kind of be like. I was very amped to be like, kind of the counterpoint and to be like the, you know, miss popular with everyone else. Like, at least Anya's reasonable. You know, he's more skeptical of some of these prosecution talking points. And then I read it, and I was also like, what the fuck? He's so guilty. Like, it was. It was. Yeah, it was crazy, but it was. It was one of those things. Like, I don't know. It's funny when people are like, I don't know. We've gotten. We've gotten some pushback. Not as much as we thought we're going to get, to be honest, but where you have. I mean, even from Temujin himself. But it's just, it's really wild to me. I want to tell you, like, Kevin read all of this stuff and it took you like, weeks to do that, right? And like, I had to basically do all of the work on the podcast, just like the general maintenance and like, putting together all the other episodes. Like, I had to just take on that. And even with me doing all of that, it still took him forever to do it. And I was getting, like, pissed off. I was like, how long am I going to have to, like, you know, edit everything? And he's still reading it, so I actually think, I don't think a lot of people actually did that because it takes forever. It's a pain in the ass. Court transcripts aren't exactly super sexy and interesting.

[Coffee]

No.

[Anya Cain]

Like, you have read them if you're going to cover them and claim innocence.

[Coffee]

And then the redaction. So sometimes you got to, like, figure that puzzle out who the hell they're talking about and stuff.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Coffee]

So, yeah, it's definitely. But when you hear that XYZ podcast had the case file, and then you listen to their podcast and they don't bring up, like, the damning about him, I don't know, alibi shopping and stuff like that. Like, that was. They said that in court, didn't they? And not the case file, but just the court trial transcripts. Like, didn't somebody testify to that? It's like, I don't know, man. I, I, I came away like, I couldn't believe, couldn't believe what I was hearing.

[Anya Cain]

And then it's bad PR strategy. I'm just gonna say this because then it just makes everyone feel like, hey, why the didn't you mention that versus, like.

[Coffee]

Yeah. Oh, my God. That was my thing was just the most is just look, with Maggie Freeling, we made fun of her. We covered her, as I think we called it. It could have been me. That's one of my favorite phrases.

[Waffles]

Everyone.

[Coffee]

Yes. We call her Maggie Free. Everyone. Yeah. One of my favorite phrases in, in True Crime with these people is how they try to relate with the murderer. And it's always this, some minor detail. And they're like, oh, I like kittens too. It could have been me. Oh. So anyway, and you see that in West Memphis 3. I liked heavy metal too. It could have been me. So anyway, we covered her. It's like that, Like, I don't, when you, when you, when I listen to Maggie Freeling, you know what you're in for, right? Every, Everything is. I think it was her unjust and unsolved, which I shortened to just solved her podcast. And you just know what you're in for with Maggie Freeling. But then the. Just the pile on. Well, the prosecutors covered it with her recommendation and I listened to theirs and it was pretty bare bones. Then the consult, I felt like they had a little more information. But then when I got to you guys, it was just the. It was like somebody uncorked the fire hydrant and it was just spewing everywhere. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.

[Anya Cain]

But it was funny because people in the beginning were like, they sound really pissed off. Why, like, why, like, why do Kevin and Anya sound like they're like. Like outraged? And it was. It was because we knew what was coming next. It was like we'd done so much reporting at that point that it was like, it was hard to. I'm gonna say this. I think everyone, you know, did. Did past coverage with like the information they had at the time. And I just think, you know, it's like, yeah, I'm hoping is now that we put out more now that now the conversation can move forward from the bullshit talking point of like. I think 18 people saw him at the different place hundreds of miles away. Like, that's not true.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think the conversation should move on to how can this.

[Coffee]

Yeah. For real.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Sorts of mistakes with other cases. Because it's not like I put on my deerstalker cap and went out on.

[Anya Cain]

Well, you did that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

My magnifying glass. All this information was out there. These transcripts are very easy to find.

[Anya Cain]

I just think no one actually read it. I mean, I'm really. I really strongly believe that. I don't know how anyone.

[Coffee]

So, yeah, it's a lot. And like with the. Like with the prosecutors, I think they covered it in 2021 or something. 2. They did two episodes. I mean, I don't listen to a lot of the prosecutors either, but I think don't they do like. I mean, right now they're on episode 9000 of West Memphis 3. But back then it was just one or two episodes. There was basically like True Crime Garage, just doing a couple episodes maybe on one case and just moving on to the next one. So podcasts like that that aren't really doing deep dives, that's about what you're going to get. You know what I mean? Because they don't have all day, they don't have months to prepare for one case if they're not going to do it the right way. But.

[Anya Cain]

Right. And I think, like, A situation, too, where it's like, it was so pervasive. It's been so pervasive for years that I think people here, it's like a. It's like a. It's like a multi level marketing scheme, right? You know, hey, do you want to make $5,000? And then, like, you know, you sign up and then suddenly, you know, your house is filled with all this, like, badly made clothing that you can't sell or offload. Like. So I think what happened here was you get hit up with the pitch of, like, the prosecution said he had to fly in an airplane to get there. And 18,000 people saw him, you know, thousands of miles away. How could it be? So you go in already buttered up towards him, of course.

[Waffles]

And then I always heard of it as the Impossible Murder.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And it's like, oh, like, when you. The branding is incredible for an Innocence Project, right? Like, the Impossible Murder. And look, he's such a sweet guy. Literally.

[Coffee]

Oh, my God.

[Anya Cain]

College newspaper article that talks about, like, I was a little nervous to meet a convicted murderer, but then I found that he liked puppies and I like puppies. And we were.

[Coffee]

Yeah, it makes nothing.

[Waffles]

It's like our friend temptation.

[Anya Cain]

Like, oh, my God, so ominous. And it's like. But I guess it's like there's twofold. First of all, the case against him is a good case and he was rightfully convicted. But second of all, then there's this weird fucking whitewashing of the dude who.

[Coffee]

Oh, my God, is on the.

[Anya Cain]

Like, has been accused of rape by all these women he was with, is accused of beating people, beating women, beating men. I mean, I think you said he's fighting grandma. Like, it's like, that is absolutely true. And so it's like there's a. It's just. I don't know, it's just the innocence industrial complex. It's just like, they need him. They're not actually giving you the real story. They're just giving you kind of a prepackaged thing that they need to sell it and have people not object to it. Because people are going to be a little more maybe skeptical if they're hearing about all the bad things this guy did. But, you know, you gotta. You gotta do that because it's the truth.

[Coffee]

I think. Another thing.

[Waffles]

I'm sorry, Waft Dog. Hold on.

[Coffee]

Yeah, go on.

[Waffles]

So originally, when we were deciding to do this episode, I was gonna bring in Marvin Heemeyer because I felt like in the true crime space, it was very similar because people just to See him as a hero, much like Luigi Mangione, which is just a fucking murderer. But Marvin Heemeyer, he's like fighting against the system.

[Anya Cain]

Right? And so is that.

[Waffles]

Sorry, what?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can you give us some background? People may not know who that is. Can you.

[Waffles]

Okay, so I think Waffles and I should cover it at a later date because we're not going to discuss it now. But have you heard of Killdozer?

[Anya Cain]

Yes, yes.

[Waffles]

So the guy welded himself inside of a giant fork, sorry, a bulldozer, and ran through the town. He ran over all these buildings, a school, and it was all because he was being told to hook up to the city sewer and he just didn't want to do it. And the city was patient and they were patient and they were patient. He ultimately sells the property, has $400,000 to his name, he rents back the shop and builds this thing. Has a huge hours long manifesto about how he's so abused and people love him. They think he's a hero because he's fighting against the system.

[Coffee]

Yeah, because I hate paying my water bill so much.

[Anya Cain]

I'll so, so I kill.

[Coffee]

Those are to hold up some stuff.

[Waffles]

July has been horrible. I, I messaged Waffles the other day last week and I said I, you know, I think we're probably just going to talk about Temu and not I won't bring in the case. And he said, Waffles said to me, I don't give a. About your car guy. I'm like dude, it's the Killdos.

[Anya Cain]

How dare you. This just got killed, Hoser.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like.

[Coffee]

I can't remember. I couldn't remember if he was Mad Max or what he was. I was dry. I drove 4, 500 miles on this damn trip. I was trying to pay attention to my GPS and all this.

[Waffles]

Yeah. I'm like dude just got back from vacation while I've been dying at work. Oh my God, it's been the worst July ever.

[Anya Cain]

So let me go anyway.

[Waffles]

Killdozer, it's, it's. I guess the similarity that I'm trying to describe is how people don't look at the facts. They just believe like it's maybe a romantic story somehow that he fought against the system, but actually it was just bullshit. And people love this dude. They, there's all. I don't know if you've seen any of the Killdozer shit, but it's like.

[Anya Cain]

Don'T tread on me, oh God, sovereign citizen type bullshit. Yeah.

[Coffee]

So let me go back like with the, with the team, you and, and the People that think he's innocent and stuff. There's this weird thing in true crime where if some podcast that you like says this guy is innocent, when they always say everyone's guilty, so they must be right this time. Then your fans have, they do this thing. Not our fan. Their fans do this thing because this podcast has these weird spin off podcasts that really suck bad. But they would go interview the guy or talk about it on their. Or make. Make their own podcast based on this guy and do two episodes and then ghost you for three months on it. They feel like he can't just be innocent and. All right, let's go home, guys. We're, we're through here. They. It goes from the guy's innocent to he's some sort of worldly saint. Like he's a great guy because he's innocent of this crime, in their opinion. I don't understand where that shift takes place. Where it's like, since he's innocent, he must be a great guy. When you see this guy online posting team you, he's a piece of shit. He's a big piece of shit. And then even in the interview with Maggie Freeling, which was cherry picked and you know, Maggie would play a clip and then, you know, narrate over it or whatever, he's. He's calling three of his four daughters or three of his four children train wrecks. He's saying they're train wrecks, but I still love them. And I'm like, can you imagine some guy in prison for murder and he's not getting out for the rest of his life calling you a train wreck. Like, there's all these red flags in these interviews with the guy where he's a piece of. But then there's these spin off podcasts that want him, want to make it out. Like, he's just a great guy. I don't understand how you can't just sit there and you, okay, you think he's innocent, but can you admit that this guy's a piece of. Look at all the stuff he's saying online. He's like going, he's going after victims and, and talking about them and on his kids and all this stuff online, right in your group. Like, I don't understand. I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

Like, I feel one. It's branding. Like, you don't like if you're just like, yeah, this guy's a dirt bag rapist who probably would have done it, but maybe he didn't. Maybe there's not enough evidence. That's not really going to get a lot of people compelled about it. People want a. A martyr to. So they can feel like they, you know, are advocating for someone that they really believe in. And second of all, I think a lot of this stuff comes from Temin himself, right? Like, he's. He literally thinks he's a. Like a God. He thinks he's a. Yes, he's a. He thinks he's the dragon of the Catholian. People.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Bow down before him.

[Anya Cain]

Bow down for him. Like, I mean, he's. I was like. I was like, this is terrifying. Like. Like, these people. It's like. It's like you couldn't make up a. A story like this where it's like these people are all, like, kind of worshiping him. And then it turns out, like, he literally has a cult. Like, it's like. It's like, beyond parody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was surprised that no one mentioned the cult basket.

[Anya Cain]

There's literally. He literally thinks he's got. I have.

[Waffles]

I have a question. Are you guys going to have ads in this?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Probably.

[Coffee]

Why?

[Waffles]

Okay. Because we're not freeloaders, and I brought a sponsor. Let's play it now.

[Anya Cain]

What is it?

[Waffles]

Have you ever wondered if perhaps you are in a cult? Has your Reverend Father ever asked you to learn a new language or perhaps take on martial arts? If so, we can help deprogram you here at Am I in a Cult? We can help you navigate out of this strange world. Disclaimer program materials will be delivered in person via a courier, and a signature will be required. You must bow and utter the exact phrase, thank you, divine Father, for your teachings. Results are not guaranteed, and every purchase is final. Go to Amainacult Biz for more details and enter the code elder mysteries for 2.5% off.

[Coffee]

A hell of a discount.

[Waffles]

2.5.

[Coffee]

Like, on all that stuff, though. That's my. Kind of. Like, my thing is, like, they're making him out to be this great guy and all this stuff, but he's you. If he. If this was some guy in prison that just shut the up, they could get away with that. Yeah, but he's not some guy in prison that just shuts the up. He's all over social media being a. Idiot.

[Anya Cain]

I hope I don't sound like too much of a hippie dippy over this, but I. I think if you kill someone, you know, in your early 20s and you feel really bad about it, and you try to make amends and try to help other people in prison not go down that path of anger, and you. You really Work towards it. I think at some point, you know, when you're older, perhaps being let out of prison isn't the worst thing in the world. Maybe you've. Maybe you've done what you could to make amends and maybe. And maybe that's an okay situation. But that's not what's happening. That's not what happened.

[Coffee]

I mean, just compare it to Adnan Syed. I think that guy is 1,000% guilty. He did it, but I have no record of him. Totally just stalking victims or the family. I mean, he did a shitty press conference when he was out and.

[Waffles]

Well, he also had Rabia to do it for him.

[Coffee]

Rabia did. Yeah, that's true. But hey, even if it was in this. Yeah, that's true.

[Anya Cain]

But weird. These women who like, kind of basically like cling to these, like, violent men who, you know, have harmed or killed women and.

[Waffles]

Hypersta field.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, yeah. Who do their dirty work for them from beyond bars. Because I mean, Tim certainly has that in his wife Paula. It's. It's. It's really like. I'm just like. I told Kevin, I said we need to have a stronger term than pick me girl, like for this kind of shit. I mean, I think hybristophilia is part of it, definitely, but it's just. I don't. I don't understand how anyone could do that for. For this guy Timidgen. Just the way he treats women. He really isn't. I. The word sexist and misogynistic is thrown around a lot these days, but like, that is him. He.

[Waffles]

He.

[Anya Cain]

He is misogynistic. He hates women.

[Coffee]

Like, no doubt about it. It's. It's not like. I mean, we make fun of those women that get involved with men that are on death row all the time. And that's one thing. You know, you're. You're an idiot for that alone. But then for her to do what she's doing with carrying out all these messages she's putting on social media and doing all this crazy shit. That's next level. And like you guys had with his daughter with the. Was it A. Meek. Her name Amiko? The last wife.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, Miko. Really? Her name was Denise.

[Coffee]

Denise.

[Anya Cain]

Can'T even make this happen.

[Coffee]

Oh, man. So these fake names. Jesus Christ.

[Waffles]

So as like Coffee and Waffles. Anyway. Go on.

[Anya Cain]

Hey, did Waffles give you that name? Coffee? Should we.

[Coffee]

I know, I know, I know. But anyway, I don't. At least it's not Genghis Khan, you know.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my God.

[Coffee]

So Just with all the stuff she was doing out of. Just in he. He was making her do. And all this stuff's like, what are y' all doing, man? And who's like, you see that all the time with celebrities. They always fall because they have all these yes men behind them. Nobody wants to stick up. Maybe some people do stick up and say, you're an idiot for doing this. They probably get kicked out of the crew or whatever. But like, isn't. I don't know, what am I talking about? Nobody's telling this guy he could have a hundred yes men behind him and he's not listening to a damn word any of them say or not. Yes men. But people are going to tell him what to do. He's just not going to listen to him. He's. He's pretty. That's pretty clear. I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Anya Cain]

No, no, no. It's like, it's. It's the thing that always reminds me in situations like that is in the Shakespeare play King Lear, it's like the one person who kind of has your back and is like, dad, let's not do this. It's stupid. Gets like thrown out and all the sycophants get kind of drawn in. And what's so sad and what is actually truly breaks my heart in this Temujin situation is we interviewed his daughter Lena. She did an interview with us and she was very clear at the end. Just sort of like she prays for him and hopes that he like, maybe at some point repents a bit or considers that he's harmed others and like, I mean, that's the best thing he could do for his own soul at this point. And also just like, you know, even if you want to be cold eyed and strategic about it, you know, for, for clemency and. Yeah, you know, but he, he does not want to hear that. He wants to hear from all his fans who are telling him, you are the best thing and sliced bread. Get. Go out there and, you know, harass whoever you want. Tiger, you're beautiful. We love you. And like, it's kind of tragic. They're just keeping him in this place of anger at this point. They're just enabling that he's burning all.

[Waffles]

The bridges that he needs. Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, a hundred percent.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I mean, one thing that really bothers me is of course Anya and I are probably best known for our deli coverage that involves two girls who were murdered, of course. And people spread rumors about the murdered girls in that case, just awful things. Like, oh, they were on drugs or they were pregnant and those things. True. But everyone seemed to realize it's a really bad idea to be spreading fake rumors about murder victims. That's really unkind. That's beyond the pale.

[Coffee]

But in this case, not in this case.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Imogen and his supporters, some of them very prominent, have no qualms about making up stuff about the murder victim out of whole cloth and spreading them, even though it really hurts living people.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, like, Scott's a rapist and a drug dealer source. I made it up. Like, literally. You can't. It, like, there's. There's nothing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It's appalling.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we're. We're. We're doing. We're doing some research on this and doing some work on this. But it's like, it. I mean, like, here, like, if I ever get murdered, don't let them say I was, like, maybe secretly a drug dealer. I'm not, you know, like, it. Like, you. You have to have some evidence for that before you come out and just say that. Now, listen, I don't have any problem with defense investigators or people looking into it, digging into that angle. That's fine. You got to look at every angle, Even if it's maybe what makes the victim look bad or whatever. I'm not saying no one should have that avenue open to them. What we are saying is it's irresponsible to just, like, speculate on that. Rampant, like, you know, like. Like, that's where the problem is. You don't need to, like, voice it unless you have some evidence.

[Coffee]

I like how you. You guys. I think it was in the episode before the Lena interview. You're talking about how. Okay, well, you guys say there's a drug angle with Scott and the police were corrupt for not looking at it. We. We looked at it, and there's not an angle. So can we just let that go down? Like the herb guy, when an herb. I can't remember his name. I just know his old, old man name, Herb. He's like. He just conceded that, like, the source that he thought was the. The drug dealing angle was bullshit.

[Anya Cain]

So I think that dude was just tailoring his response to everybody because I remember, like, with us, he was very conservative and very, like, oh, yes. Well, I don't have any evidence of anyone lying and blah, blah, blah. I don't have any evidence, really, of Scott being a drug dealer. I remember when he went on the consult, in his interview, at one point, he seemed about to, like, swerve into conspiracy theories and I think he sensed that the hosts were uncomfortable, so backed off of it. But I feel like he's telling everyone what they want to hear. I just like, I don't, I don't. Like, it was such a weird dance we did with him. We emailed him, we're like, hey, send us what you got. Like, we'd love to see it. And we're open minded because at that point we were like, yeah, we think he's guilty, but maybe there's some good points that they're raising that would make us say, hey, we think he's factually guilty, but there probably should be a new trial or, you know, something like that, you know, like, and it was just this weird back and forth where we're like, just not getting anything. And we'd heard that he'd given stuff to other people, so we were just like, interesting that we see, we actually think he's guilty and suddenly it's like, well, we don't want to talk to you. Like, they don't want to convert us. They don't want to evangelize, they want to hide. Like, yeah, it's weird.

[Coffee]

That is weird. That is weird.

[Waffles]

I just, maybe they're in a cult.

[Anya Cain]

Maybe, maybe they're worshiping at the feet or the, the talons of the dragon of the Cathol.

[Coffee]

I want to know that, I want to know that guy's motivation. But it's, it doesn't matter. It's what we always see in these, these episodes we cover in our podcast. It's just once they get it in their head, a lot of times people can't change their mind. And, and I, I mean, I'm probably guilty of that for certain things. We're probably all biased in certain ways or whatever, but it's probably as simple as of an explanation as you can give for some of these advocates.

[Anya Cain]

I guess. I feel like, and I, I'll, like, I, Kevin, may feel differently, but for me, like, I know we, we, you know, we do cases that are, we'd go really in depth on and then we do cases that we're more casually covering in like a weekly episode. And like, we're really capable of getting stuff wrong. I personally believe, like, unless you really kind of like study every case individually as, like, as hard as you can, like you're probably not getting everything and you may get stuff wrong, but because there's just always so much that you don't see. And like, for me, I would rather protect my integrity as a whole than double down on one case because, like, for me, like, if I. I don't know, I remember I, like, badly fucked up in one episode where I was like, you know, guys, mental illness is different than personality disorders. And then a bunch of people who live with personality disorders are like, emailing me, being like, you got that wrong. And I was like, oh, shit, that's really embarrassing. So I remember I went into our closet and recorded something like. Like a hostage, like, tape or something. Being like, wrong guys to get it.

[Coffee]

Out there real quick.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Like, just to put it out there really quickly. Like, I. And like, there people were like, why didn't you edit that out? Because that sounded insane. It sounded like you were being kidnapped. And it was like, I would rather people know I up. Because then, you know, kind of be aware that, like, I'm. I'm not trying to be all, like, humble or, like, fake humble, but, like, I. I don't want to lead people astray. I don't want to lead Cliff, like, the, you know, Pied Piper situation. Like, I want people to be skeptical that Kevin and I do a lot of work on these cases, but we are not perfect. And, you know, and I love that because we do get a lot of pushback from our audience. And I think, like, that's what we've tried to cultivate. Like, we'll have people who are experts in different types of law or experts in mental illness or who are law enforcement officers reach out and be like, hey, like, you guys, but you fucked that up. And then we can go and address it or talk about it. And that's. That's. We want to be learning. We're students of this as well, because I came in from a retail beat and Kevin came in from intellectual property loss. So we're. No, we're just. We're kind of covering it as journalists. So I. I guess I'm just like, I. If somebody showed me a video of somebody not Temujin doing, you know, killing Scott tomorrow, I would be happy to say we got that wrong. We got that badly wrong.

[Waffles]

But.

[Anya Cain]

But with the information we have now, I feel very confident that he's guilty.

[Coffee]

That makes the getting stuff wrong thing. I've always taken this approach where I try to be upfront as much as I can, and with my knowledge on the case. Like, we covered deli. I didn't know about deli. It was mainly. It was mainly coffee, mostly.

[Waffles]

We were talking about Bob and Bob and then Lana, of course, but.

[Coffee]

But I didn't know nothing about deli. And up front, I said it in the episode I said, I don't know about this. So I'm mainly. I was coming at the case with just my common sense profiling that I love to do, and coffee was gonna give me, you know, details of the case and all that stuff. And I remember somebody. Somebody shared our pod. Maybe it was. I don't know where it was actually. Somebody shared our. That episode. Bob Motta listened to it and he said, oh, I only listened to a few minutes. That one dude said he didn't even know anything about the case. So who were they to speak on this? Like, you got to have this weird. It's like this weird thing in true crime where you got to have all the credibility in the world. You got to know every single thing about the case, or you. You don't. Your opinion doesn't matter. Like, if my biggest point on that was the guy, I think that was the first episode where we learned that he. I learned that Dick Allen confessed, like, 61 times or whatever.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Coffee]

I'm like, that was. That was like a Karen Reed moment where I'm like, why are we here? The like, why are we here? This guy can't shut up about how he did it. But we're supposed to act like every one of these. It was just. I don't know.

[Anya Cain]

And then, I mean, Bob Mata didn't know about that case. And he file and he got a seat with the defense the whole time.

[Coffee]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of people don't know anything about Temperature and Kinsu, and that didn't stop them from reporting on it.

[Coffee]

Yeah. And then. Yeah. Yeah. And another thing was, like, when the prosecutors covered Adnan, they got. I think they said that hey was going to pick up her cousin and it was her niece or. I can't remember what the detail was. Wow. And like, Ravia. Ravia made a tweet, or maybe it was Colin saying, like, oh, they don't know the basic facts of the case. How are you going to listen to what they have to say? And that was totally a response, as in, they were frightened because that's a popular podcast. More popular than her podcast.

[Anya Cain]

Way more popular.

[Coffee]

And it was going to be. And then, you know, they're probably. At that point, they didn't say it, but you knew there was probably more than likely you're going to say that Adnan was guilty. But. And I think he. They had already said some negative things about Adnan. It wasn't a total glaze job like Rabia prefers. So, yeah, with the getting stuff wrong. I, like, I tried to do like, we play clips and we respond to clips. So it's pretty much right there. It's hard to get that wrong. But sometimes we will freestyle and I will fuck shit up. But.

[Waffles]

Right. We don't read from a script. We're just talking. And if there's shit we missed, people will let us know, and then we'll do shit we missed. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And also, like, you're roasting people for their behavior. You're not off. You're not saying, hey, I'm gonna do this investigative deep dive into something. You're saying, hey, these people are acting like nuts. Let's not. Which is, for the most part, very much a service that is much needed in True Crime, in my view.

[Coffee]

Yeah, it's fun. I don't know why anybody, nobody else has really come forward with this before.

[Anya Cain]

It's so much fun to do Incestuous Community. Everybody's like, oh, so we have. We're on the same network. Or I promo swap with them, or I don't want to make it awkward at CrimeCon. And I think there's just a real reluctance to criticize anyone. We know this because we've criticized people. Only people who ever, ever took it in any good humor whatsoever were actually True Crime Garage. They were super nice about it. I sent them a really big deal. Anya signed off on it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Why do I. Anya sent.

[Anya Cain]

It was the bitchiest email I've ever sent in.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Like, I nearly got frostbite just from touching it.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I was scared.

[Anya Cain]

This is why people have, like, a hashtag Save Kevin thing going. I know. So I sent that to him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It was an awful email.

[Anya Cain]

You know what? But I was. I was frustrated them because I felt like they were accusing, like, a witness in the case. And I was like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But she said to the captain of True Crime Garage, and he immediately said, hey, give me a call. We're talking to him.

[Anya Cain]

They're like, oh, shit. And so we did. And it was actually a good conversation. Like, it was like, I. I understood more why they were like. I still didn't agree with it, and I don't think he still agreed with me. But we were able to kind of, like, come together in a weird way. So I feel like the people who are, like, actually open to stuff like that are usually the people who are okay. But a lot of.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're friends with them.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah, we're friends with them now.

[Coffee]

They're.

[Anya Cain]

They're great. I love Nick and the captain. They're actually really just solid, cool dudes. But, like, the thing about the lesson in that is. That's the rarity. Usually if you criticize somebody.

[Coffee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

You piss off not only them, but all of their friends, all their fans and their worst.

[Coffee]

And the podcast friends. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

And then they're, you know, they're talking shit about you on. On Reddit for the rest of your life and it's just like nobody, Nobody, like, especially people who like, I don't know, there's like a. This is ethics washing in true crime that I hate. I would rather people just like come at it and just be like, here's my like legitimate opinion, whatever. But when people are like, oh, you know, victims advocacy and innocence advocate and like, like fake ass NPR ass voice, you know, like this true crime is ethically sourced. It's like, go fuck yourselves. And it's just like, yeah, doing anything ethical, you're just making ethicals.

[Coffee]

I mean, come on, dude, let's get real. These like with Ravi Achaudry and the horrible she said about the Lee family and, and her fans will tell you that she's the most. Most ethical thing in true crime. You know what I mean? So yeah, she's the queen. All that stuff. So that ethics, I don't like I said we're gonna do an episode and then at the very end we're probably going to talk about the Sopranos and fake tits at the bottom. So that's, that's about the ethics in true crime. You know what I mean?

[Waffles]

No, I cringe every time people are listen to this podcast about a super serious true crime case and then we talk about porn.

[Coffee]

Yo, dude, it does. Like we just we it. I'm to be honest with you, the main thing we do on our podcast is we just don't give a. We don't care what people are going to think. We don't care if you're going to listen and, and be offended or whatever. That's fine. We're. I mean this, it's for adults. Like, that's the whole thing with true crime. People will listen to a case about rape and murder. But then when we talk about, you know, onlyfans girls on Instagram or whatever, they're like, oh, that's disgusting.

[Waffles]

Trigger warning down, bitches.

[Coffee]

Yeah, exactly. But I had something else I was going to say about the ethics part of it, but that is the high horse I'm sick of. Really?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I just am sick of people. And also, you know, it's not ethical. It's like when, you know, I like, I've seen this with, you know, like, like people will Behave in just horrible ways. I mean, motto was, was just his stuff, was a lot of his stuff I thought was beyond the Pale within Deli. You know, like, if he's doing the circuits with, you know, the true crime festivals and whatever, they can invite him. But like, it's like, you know, like it just. At some point when people are continuing to support that kind of crap, it's like you're okay with it. And I don't, I, I think he should apologize to the victims families and, and then maybe there's some consideration of welcoming people back into the fold. But like, I don't. He. I don't think he sees himself as done doing anything wrong. And I, I just, I, I personally, I just find that disgusting. I, I hate that about true crime. The clickiness. It's just like everything is just, you know, we don't want to offend anybody. We don't want to do this. And it's like sometimes you have to call out bad behavior and.

[Waffles]

Yeah, like Lena Oriani, doesn't she have like 60,000 YouTube members or whatever? And she was selling jurors information. 9.99 pay for it is what she said.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, she.

[Waffles]

She outrageous.

[Anya Cain]

They shared like a. They shared like a hotel room. Her and Mata, like he's in like live stream one night. It's just like, what is going. Like why, like, like why does. I mean, there's just no standards. I mean, there's no like basement to like this. People will just do whatever and then act like it's okay and it's just not.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And speaking of Lana Oriani, I'll admit something. After you write a book, as we wrote a book on Delphi, the publisher makes you go through and everything you say you have to be able to support with a source. And they want sources for some of the things we said about Lana Oriani. And we knew she said it was one of these YouTubers or something, but we couldn't find them. And then I said, wait a minute. The viper pit covered this and they have. That was a tremendous help. And it's one.

[Coffee]

Oh, you got it from us.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Well, yeah. And then it allowed us to retrace.

[Coffee]

Where we came from.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, a lot of time. That's one of the many reasons we thank you in the acknowledgment.

[Coffee]

Yeah, that's awesome. It's just. I'm not even kidding right now. I just gotta. You gotta be kidding me.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What's wrong?

[Coffee]

I just got a DM from Paula Kinsu.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Really?

[Anya Cain]

No, you didn't really?

[Coffee]

Not even kidding.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Can you read it?

[Coffee]

Hello. How are you? Curious. If you have researched Temujin's wrongful conviction and what your thoughts are on it. I'm not kidding. I'll screenshot this. I'm not opening it right now.

[Anya Cain]

Oh that's so creepy.

[Coffee]

That is fucking weird. I've never talked to this woman a day in my life.

[Anya Cain]

Now you're about to be part of team Kenzie.

[Coffee]

Yeah, she's got a rude awakening.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I wonder who you're gonna be talking about.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, you're gonna like we all worship the Catholian people and we the Grand Dragon is who we worship.

[Coffee]

I'll probably be reading something some. She talked about me. More honestly than. Than that.

[Anya Cain]

You're gonna have to. You're gonna have to definitely get invest in a lot of robes and a lot of dragon style things. Lots of dragons, dragon tattoos, anything.

[Coffee]

How weird.

[Waffles]

Practice. You're bowing. I. I just checked Koffi's messenger and they didn't send me a message. Sup with that? I thought it was a nice one.

[Anya Cain]

You're not. You're not good enough to be part of the Cathalion people apparently.

[Waffles]

Sorry.

[Anya Cain]

Sorry to find out this way.

[Waffles]

I've already been in a cult. They know they can't do it.

[Coffee]

Dude, her and that profile picture with them looking like the next Karate Kid is just too fucking much for me. Like come on.

[Anya Cain]

Like let's joke about how I used to abuse women with ninja weapons.

[Coffee]

I said the Karate Kid, the Karate Grandpa over here.

[Anya Cain]

What's. You guys point this out and by making fun of this stuff you actually like kind of underscore stuff in a way that we kind of can't sometimes. But like he's so cringy. He's like. Like he's like this like guy who thinks he's a cool rock and roll ninja guy. Like he's like almost like if a like a cringy sitcom dad were evil. Like it like that. Like it's like there's something about him that's just so embarrassing that I don't understand where people find him like really compelling or deep or anything like that.

[Coffee]

I'll tell you this much. You guys kill me with your jokes that you're not really like trying to make anybody laugh but it's. Oh my God. I can't remember what episode it was during the team you coverage but you were talking about something that Paula wrote online and it was appalling. And Kevin said no pun intended.

[Anya Cain]

I threw a lot of accidental puns in Real life. And a lot of. A lot of accidental double on. Super lucky dad.

[Coffee]

I remember where I was at in my truck at work. I drove through this intersection, just bouncing at my truck from laughing so damn loud. People looking at me probably thought I was having a seizure or something, but it was so damn funny.

[Waffles]

All right, let's talk about the te thing for a second, because apparently that word is now auto banned in certain groups. You can't say temu.

[Coffee]

I love.

[Anya Cain]

You guys were geniuses. This team of Charles Manson is exactly what he's trying to be, you know, straight up.

[Coffee]

Oh, yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Imported.

[Coffee]

And it's a shortened version of his name. Every. And, like, that's another thing. Like, we get. A lot of times we get quoted or it just ends up in a group or whatever. And I'll see it. I'm like, again, it's just kind of crazy because I don't know these people that are doing it, but it's. It's flattering. And people quoting Coffee's team. You. She's the one that started that. I'll give her all the credit is. I love it. I love seeing it. Because just people. It's just totally easily to relate with because this guy is. He's a knockoff. He's bullshit. He's not the real deal. And yeah, to the point where it got banned in a Facebook group is hilarious to me.

[Anya Cain]

I have a question. Do you guys ever say on your podcast and then people are quoting it back to you later, like, in a comment or, like, reaching out, and you don't definitely.

[Coffee]

It just happened. It just happened before I got on here. This.

[Anya Cain]

But you don't even remember saying it. And you're like, what the did I say about that?

[Coffee]

All. All the time. This. Well, this girl. This girl sent me a quote from episode 37. It was like 80 episodes, 80 episodes ago. And it was something pretty provocative to say. And I was like, what the hell? And she's like, no. And then she sends me the clip of me saying it. I'm like, well, that clip would have helped more than the way. The way you said it, you know? Yeah, all the time. Do you guys get that, too?

[Anya Cain]

Oh, okay. I can tell you the worst was during the Delphi trial because we were, like, outside all the time and very.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Cold and tired, getting very little sleep.

[Anya Cain]

No sleep.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And at one point on our Facebook groups, suddenly, like, people are posting pictures, not actual photographs, but drawings of cats in jury boxes, and they say, oh, this is what Anya was talking about.

[Coffee]

Ha ha, ha.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're like, what the hell did she say?

[Anya Cain]

Awful. I was like. I was like. I think I was, like, messaging people. Like, what did I say?

[Coffee]

Yeah, yeah. And you don't want to be a dick because they're trying to, you know, might be trying to compliment you or whatever, but you don't know what the hell they're talking about. Yes, that is happening.

[Anya Cain]

I'll tell you. We have a funny. This is in the book about Delphi. But this was. This was the weirdest, most surreal moment during the trial. I'm going to tell about the quote from the closing argument. So I talked about how Richard Allen had a bridge guy starter kit in his house. Because. I don't know. I guess. Oh, yeah. I was overly online at some point in my life, and I remember all the starter kit memes, and I just, like, that's what came to my mind. So I just said it very casually. And then the prosecutor quoted that in his closing argument. And I remember just like, sinking down in my chair being like, what the fuck is happening? We asked him afterwards. We were like, like, what the. Like, you know, when we finally got to interview him, we were like, how did. Like, he actually preemptively told us because we were just like, what the fuck? How did that happen? And he told us that he was getting, like, suggestions from some of, like, the people who were like, you know, they're the families of the prosecutors. They're kind of like. Kind of get the everyday person on the street vibe of what was going on. And one of. One of them actually, like, wrote down something from my the bridge guy starter kit in quotes, but didn't mention that it came from us. And he figured it came from, like, somebody else, so he included. And then afterwards, they're like, you quoted murder sheet. And he was just like, oh, fuck.

[Coffee]

Damn.

[Anya Cain]

He did not want to be associated with the. Because, you know, I mean, like, they were. We were already getting all these kind of conspiracy theorists being like, they're plants from the prosecutors. And they're like, like, man, we're undercover cops. And it's like, what the. No, we're not. But, you know, it was. It was crazy. I was just like. Did not expect to be quoted there. It was very flattering. But then it was really embarrassing when I found out how it happened, because they were just like, we did not mean to do that.

[Coffee]

That Delphi case that brought out. So I. I'm again, I'm not totally versed in it, but I see now. I don't know if I can think of another Case off top of my head with so many whack job conspiracy theorists in it. I mean, the Kevin, the Karen Reed one is pretty damn bad, but man, I don't know. Some Delphi ones were just over the top, unfortunately.

[Waffles]

I think this is going to be the future of going for true crime for sure. It's going to be all sensationalized. There's going to be every conspiracy theorist out there trying to make a book and people are going to swallow it.

[Coffee]

I mean, we shouldn't be surprised. I, I'm, I mean, I was in the grocery store the other day. Magazines are dropping like flies, but I think the National Enquirer is still pumping out tabloids, aren't they?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, definitely.

[Coffee]

And you know, like, and have they got anything right ever? Like, they don't even try to get right and, or if they do, it's some like sensationalized story from a somebody's long lost brother or whatever the hell. But I think people must be eating that up. It's still getting printed on paper in 2025. It's crazy. Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

The people that bother me are the creators who basically like seek to cultivate like a audience of dumb and wrong people who like, basically just like they know better, but they just want to validate those people's dumb opinions. So they just kind of like, oh yeah, maybe there is a conspiracy. Ooh. It's like, it's, it's like a camp counselor telling their campers like scary stories in front of the fire. It's just pathetic.

[Coffee]

And it's like, you know, Bob Mata, he's. He, he did a podcast with the somewhat. We're going to cover this podcast. I visited the, the city that it was in in my vacation. And the description he gave of this place, I thought it was some backwoods 30 miles from an interstate, 30 miles from a highway, you know, half a mile, three, two, three miles between houses and all this stuff. And so it's some like hick town and all. I go there, man, this is like they've got, it's right off the interstate. They got a mall, they got a Target, they got a Walmart. What the is this guy talking about? Yeah, like every restaurant you can want to eat at. They had a nice community center and a nice park and pool and everything was nice. Like, what the, man? I mean, I love going to the, to cities with, with the crime scenes and stuff. I went to Delphi on this trip as well, but heck, I had it like it was 1950s America and, and I'm just like dude, it's not even close. And then the crime happened in 2020. So anyway, yeah, that's. That.

[Anya Cain]

Delphi gets that too, because people want to act like Delphi. And Carroll county in Indiana is like this den of corruption. And every time you go there, people are, like, glaring at you out the window. And it's all, like. Everyone's, like, plotting, and it's like, it's a normal place.

[Coffee]

Yeah. Spoiler.

[Anya Cain]

Did you get a biscuit in Delphi?

[Coffee]

No, I didn't get a biscuit.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, God. Waffles you up badly, let me tell you.

[Coffee]

Let me make this point real quick. What did. What did Bob Mata say about bridge guy with the Carhartt on and all that stuff? Oh, we're in Midwest. In the Midwest, Indiana, it's hard to find somebody that's not wearing Carhartt. I gotta tell you, I didn't see one person while I was still fighting Carhartt. Not at all. It's just another city that's, you know, it's a civilization. Like these places, they act like it's 1950s America, dude. It's just a regular place to live. Delphi was pretty nice, actually. I was pretty impressed with it and that the Monon High Bridge Trail. That was all real nice. That was. That was really nice. But, yeah, it's just crazy.

[Anya Cain]

I will tell you, like, you know, I do see people dressed like that, but they're not people. Also then confess to it 61 times and, like, also put themselves in the same exact outfit of the guy.

[Coffee]

God, so much.

[Anya Cain]

Killer would know. It's like, you know, not.

[Coffee]

It doesn't just stop at the car. Heart. For sure. Yeah. Good Lord. Yeah.

[Waffles]

That was in waffles. You saw. You guys saw fish from the bridge?

[Coffee]

We did, actually. I was. I went to where the bridge is, and they have it, you know, the trails. Railed off or whatever. And my son was behind me. He's like, oh, look, dad, you can see fish from up here. I turned around, I was like, thank you for reminding me, because I was on the points. And you can see fish from up there for sure.

[Waffles]

Bob Ruff is like, you can't see fish. That's a dumb story.

[Coffee]

Yeah. So anyway, yeah, like you're saying with the people that are. I think Bob Ma is definitely smarter than he puts on, but he does drag that. That crazy audience with him.

[Anya Cain]

Here's the thing, though. They're a. They're a. They're like a ball and chain. Because, yeah, once you. Once you just cultivate that. The kind of Conspiracy theorists. Then all the normal people, you know, are saying, get me a helicopter the fuck out of here. You know, like, I don't want anything to do with you anymore. And so, like, that's one thing we've seen where when people are kind of cultivating that, they kind of are, like, almost falling into their own weird subset of true crime. And. And even people who are more on the fence are turned off by that because the rhetoric is just so. So crazy, I think. So that's like, one thing that gives me hope for true crime.

[Coffee]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've. Like I said, I thought the amount of people that thought, like we do with the. Listening to these podcasts and hearing the thought, it was very minimal. But it's. Every day we get more and more followers and listeners and stuff. So there is hope that the majority is not as. As silly as we think they are.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think the crazies are just really loud. I think most.

[Coffee]

Yes.

[Anya Cain]

Not to sound like Richard Nixon. I think there is, like a silent majority here where people are like, well, I just, you know, I don't. I don't think everyone's being railroaded. I think some people are innocent, some people aren't. And, you know, innocent until proven guilty. But that doesn't mean I need to become like, a fanboy of a killer.

[Coffee]

Right. Right. Yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It really was tough for us going through Delphi and some other things, and you guys are a breath of fresh air. I wish there were a lot more shows like yours out there. And I encourage people to check it out and support it and join the Facebook group, which is a great group.

[Anya Cain]

I agree.

[Coffee]

Thank you. It's the Viper Pit podcast on Facebook. We'll ask you a few questions. What are the hosts names? Waffles and Coffee. How'd you hear about us? The murder sheet. Or you can just lie. You can tell us whatever you want.

[Anya Cain]

No, say the murder sheet.

[Waffles]

Uncle Kevin told us.

[Coffee]

Yeah, say the murder sheet. I want to see if we. If we have an influx of people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A single person.

[Coffee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

One solitary person who wanders it.

[Coffee]

We'll send you a screenshot.

[Anya Cain]

We got him.

[Waffles]

So the group is great. We have fan fiction. I hope you guys read it. You guys are included. And they called you the Homicide Blanket.

[Coffee]

I loved it. Oh, while we're here. While we're here, are there going to be. I'll tell you.

[Waffles]

Homicide Blanket.

[Coffee]

You guys are our first interview. You're like our first everything. And coffee was like, hey, somebody wants us to interview once. Somebody wants to interview us on Their podcast. You know me, I'm like, was it Johnny Carson or somebody? I'm not really interested.

[Waffles]

Art Bell.

[Coffee]

I'm giving, like, a team you 90s reference here, but as a Jerry Springer, I don't know who you want. And then you said, no, it's the moron sheet. I said, well, of course I want to get interviewed by the moron sheet. And since then, since we. You've been called the moron sheet by team, you people are wanting T shirts.

[Anya Cain]

I know. We're working.

[Coffee]

What do you think about. Are you thinking about doing that?

[Anya Cain]

Strongly considering it. And it would be the second insult that has inspired a T shirt.

[Coffee]

I think it's the best reply to these that really try to hurt your feelings.

[Anya Cain]

Murder she People was also an insult. So more on sheet. I love the moron sheet. There's something kind of innocuous about it. Like, usually people call us the murder shits. And it's like, yeah, that's been done to death. You know, like, come on. Like, think more on sheets. A little bit of a throwback. It's a little bit cliche, cleaner.

[Waffles]

I think you should make a homicide blanket shirt.

[Anya Cain]

I love homicide. That's like the nicest thing anyone called us. Yeah, we've gotten the. Yeah, murder shits is the big one. And then I think more on sheet. Yeah, I give him credit for that. I like that one.

[Coffee]

That was hilarious. I mean, it's the best. Like, I watch. I don't watch a ton of wrestling, but I used to watch wrestling a bunch when I was a kid. There's a. A guy named Jim Cornett. He's outspoken. He's got his own YouTube channel. He. He talks about wrestling and all that stuff. One of these one. So one of the younger guys in wrestling back, I don't know, 10, 15 years ago, talked about him and made a shirt with his face on it, like, looking all crazy. And Jim Cornette sued him and got the. Got the rights to the shirt and then sold it himself. And I think that is the best way to reply to these jerks, to just embrace it.

[Anya Cain]

No. Yeah, we're. I think we're gonna. I think we gotta figure out what the design is, but I'm really digging it. And it's just like, it's easy. So crazy, you know? Cause, like, it was so funny in the beginning. We, like, reach up being like, we do think you're guilty, but we'd love to hear your side of it. Like, please come on our show. And we never heard back. And we're like, yeah, I'll probably never hear from him. And then now it's just been constantly. Yeah. Go to war in the Facebook. Oh my God.

[Coffee]

Like, dude, I just. It's fat. I mean, the guy's nuts. He's. He's off his rocker. But it is, I mean, I don't mean it's the wrong way, but it is just. It's nice to see what he really is, but at the same time it's at the sacrifice of, of innocent victims. But you know what I'm saying? Whereas you have, you do have so many people that do. They, they are guilty, but they have advocates and they walk the line, you know?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah.

[Coffee]

This guy, it's just like, even if you think he's innocent, why would you waste your time? It's like, Steven Avery, that guy's a pile of shit too. Why would you waste your time with that guy? But people will. People will.

[Anya Cain]

I think, I think a few will. I think a lot of people have changed their minds on Tim.

[Coffee]

Oh God, so many people.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think people hear it who are open minded, who don't have their egos tied to one way or another. It's kind of like, oh, well. And you know, some of them are like, hey, I think I might have still voted innocent on, you know, if I was, if I was on the jury, I would have voted not guilty. But I don't feel comfortable with this, so I'm not going to support it. So I feel like people are. People are generally in those two camps of guilt.

[Coffee]

I totally respect that too. It's just if you want to think he's in. I've said that before. If you want to think he's innocent, fine. But to keep supporting this guy being a piece of shit online, that, I mean, that's a.

[Waffles]

It's outrageous. It's outrageous what he's doing it.

[Anya Cain]

It's totally nuts. And I don't mind him going after us. Kevin and I are used to it. I mean, like, we've, we've really, like, we could give the speech from Blade Runner, like about like what we've seen in true crime and like what's happened and like threats we've gotten and like, I just don't give a at this point. I'm like, we're totally burned out in that respect, which is good, you know? You like, I think it's good. But like, I don't want him going after the people he can considerably, you know, continuously goes after because it's like, they don't deserve it. This is Their real lives. Like, leave him alone. Like, people, you know, I, I, that, I mean, I, I want people to see what he is, but at the same time, like, these people have just been through so much, and I, I know, you know, I just, I.

[Waffles]

They're the victims.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Like, you know, if he wants to go after us, we'll. We'll dance with him. You know, we'll. We'll do whatever. Like, I don't.

[Coffee]

Yep. And by the way, there's a post on the Viper Pit that is a bunch of screenshots of what he said on the gallery. And like, we're not trying to re. Victimize. We're not trying to be. Like, some people have said, well, you're just as bad as him for posting it. It's like, no, no, because whenever he did it over there, nobody's gonna say to him over there because they're afraid of offending the guy that the prosecutors think are in it is innocent and they don't want to get kicked out of the group. There's all that eggshell walking versus in our group, you get to see what he said and although awful things he said. And by the way, that post in the gallery is gone now. Yeah, you get to see all the horrible things that he said and just to be aware of what you're dealing. I mean, because those posts or those comments that they throw up in the gallery or whatever, pick your podcast murder group they're in or Facebook group they're in. Yeah, they'll be there for a little bit. Then a lot of times they get pulled down. We got the post. You can read all the crazy shit he said. And then if you walk away after reading that and you're like, he's still seems like a misunderstood guy or whatever, that's like, okay, all right, you know.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, I don't think you're re victimizing anybody. I think putting the truth out there is important here. I think it really is. And I think the tide.

[Coffee]

Yeah, we put it out there and I mean, obviously, you know, everybody in that group knows how we feel about the guys, so there's no eggshells to walk on. And you can definitely just see it for yourself. React if you want to, comment if you want to, and that's that. But I don't know. I just can't believe that's the support that guy's got for. I think it's showing his ass.

[Anya Cain]

It shows you unquestioned innocence fraud spawns, which is just more stalking, more abuse, more bad behavior, like, not A case like that is going to happen. Like you mentioned, Adnan, he's not maybe as Robbie to do that for him, but he's not necessarily doing it himself. But in this case, this kind of guy has been treated like a pampered prince by this true crime community for years.

[Coffee]

Yeah.

[Anya Cain]

Now people are seeing him unmasked.

[Coffee]

Yeah.

[Waffles]

Our friend.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Our friend Tim.

[Coffee]

Oh, God. Just like. Okay, well, I'll say this, one more thing on that team you guy is that. I mean, it truly is. You guys did such a great job on it. And I'm not trying to glaze you guys on this, but it's. I just can't help it. But you guys did such a great job on it. There is t. This is the timeline for team you before murder sheet and after murder sheet. And that's the bottom line because there's. You go back and listen to these podcasts before you dropped yours, and it was a completely different. A completely different presentation of this guy. Then you guys come out and it seems like people are like, maybe I don't want to finish my podcast on this guy. Or maybe I don't want to start my podcast on this guy. Or maybe I gotta think of a different approach to start my podcast on this guy. Because the information's out there now. You can't hide behind this. In the innocence fraud thing, I don't really try to say that too much because people can be like, oh, he's one of those. It's just like a, I don't know, impulsive phrase, I feel. But that's what this shit is when you're not putting out all the fucking evidence. Yep.

[Anya Cain]

Well, thank you so much. And I just want to say though, I mean, after you talk to Paula Waffles, maybe you'll completely singing a different tune tomorrow.

[Coffee]

I'm gonna probably just. I'm gonna tell her, like, hey, it's kind of crazy to catch you while I'm getting interviewed by the murder sheet. But check, tune in, tune into them. You'll have my answer. Yeah.

[Waffles]

So one of my favorite quotes ever is one I made up myself, which is. Which is always keep an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

[Coffee]

Yeah, buddy.

[Anya Cain]

Yes. I love that.

[Coffee]

Yeah. That's another one of my rants I was going to do on grinding of gears. That is the number one thing you hear people say in whenever they're trying to get you convinced that someone is innocent when they're actually guilty is now try to keep an open mind. And it's like, I think I'm going to close my mind off to all the bullshit theories you're going to present me. Like, why would I open my mind to that? It's stupid.

[Anya Cain]

But, yeah, well said. Yeah.

[Coffee]

People try to keep it open mind.

[Anya Cain]

People don't know what innocent until proven guilty means. People don't know what open mind means. People like.

[Coffee]

People just reasonable doubt. You want to throw that in there.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. People just give way too much doubt with a reason.

[Coffee]

They quote Bob Rough. God.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, my God. I'm gonna check out that. Become the storm.

[Coffee]

I am the storm.

[Anya Cain]

I need to get motivated with my life. So I'm excited.

[Coffee]

And go. He's got a Facebook page, guys, for I am the Storm. Go there and check it out. There's one young lady that asked a question that's been left on red for, I think, eight years now.

[Waffles]

When is the next episode coming out?

[Coffee]

Yeah, check out the Facebook group. And I think he still has stuff on YouTube for I am the Storm. But it is. It is my favorite. It was my favorite Bob Rough thing ever. He did have. I will say this, he did have a podcast that was deleted from the Internet.

[Anya Cain]

Whoa.

[Coffee]

Called off duty. And on off duty, he was himself. And then it was a couple other people from the fire department, I believe, Mike Bussing, I think, was in there. And he was the biggest Trump supporter on the planet, which, look, I'm not getting into politics. Do your thing. If you. My mom voted for Trump, who gives a shit? Right? But. And back in. Was that 2016, the first election for that guy? If. If he. I think that's the reason why I got pulled down. Because when. You know how it is when you bring politics into your podcast, it really does just stir up a shitstorm.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah.

[Coffee]

But when I. That. Which, like I said, I don't give a shit who he voted for, but when I. It's like, hey, what. What. What happened to. I asked him, like, what happened to this podcast you got rid of? It's not on the Internet. And he said, I can't remember what his. His reasoning was for getting rid of it. He's said. He's since said it on a few podcasts. Something to do with. He felt like he was ripping off another podcast. I don't know, whatever. And I said it wasn't. I was like, it wasn't. Because you were like a really big Trump supporter on there. And he's. He said he was playing a character. He was. He said he was playing a character. I was like, I don't know, man. It sounded like you're being yourself, like everyone was being their self. He tried to say he was being a character, but that was. I love that off duty podcast, but that is. It's gone. I can't get it. We would. I would seriously cover every one of those episodes, but it's long game.

[Anya Cain]

That's amazing. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. There's so much lore there.

[Coffee]

It's way more to Bob Rough than anyone thought, but I can't get enough of the guy.

[Anya Cain]

Well, we appreciate you guys so much for coming on the show. And just, we. We would really. I want to echo what Kevin said. You guys are delightful. Your show's delightful. Please listen to the Viper Pit. I really. I. People are always recommending it to us, but I. We listen all the time and I. I would recommend it to anyone who hasn't checked you guys out yet.

[Coffee]

Thank you very much. It was very nice to come on here. Like I said, our first interview. This was great.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. Well, you did a great job.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Thank you so much. We really want to thank Waffles and Coffee for taking time out of their busy schedules to talk with us earlier this week. This took a long time for us to get all of our schedules in alignment. We were trying to make this happen since, I think, at least June. We really appreciate their patience in working with us and accommodating our busy schedules.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we. We're so excited to talk with them. Check out the Viper Pit. I think it's pretty much available wherever you listen to podcasts, so check it out and consider listening. I think it's a riot and it really provides if you're feeling burned out on true crime. I think it really provides a necessary and nice cathartic space to just sort of laugh at some of this nonsense.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And check out their Facebook page as well. And if you do that, tell them we sent you. So we get the credit.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we want the credit.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, Please email us murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

[Kevin Greenlee]

You know, Anya, we are in this true crime space. It's such a. A difficult place to be in sometimes. And one of the reasons is because you're talking about cases that people have a real emotional involvement in. And so if you reach a conclusion that some people don't like online, they're going to, like, start attacking you and even threatening you.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I know when that first started happening to us, it was really, really unsettling and difficult. And I know one thing that really helped us feel better and safer to continue on with the show with SimpliSafe.

[Anya Cain]

SimpliSafe has been a company we've trusted for years. We've used them for years to protect our home. And one of the reasons is they just give us that peace of mind. As Kevin said, we're no strangers to controversy. And sometimes that can mean getting threats or getting basically veiled threats where people say they're gonna come hurt you because they disagree with what you're saying about a case. And so with Simplisafe, we're able to kind of keep the murder sheet train chugging along and not worry about that too much because we know that they are so proactive about how they keep homes secure. This is a company, I mean, their new Active Guard Outdoor protection that's there to stop break ins before they happen. They're not just letting you know about, oh, this bad thing happened. They're trying to prevent it from even happening so you don't have to go through that trauma. They have live monitoring agents on hand 247 to possibly detect suspicious activity around the property. They have cameras. And also, one thing I like about them is they're flexible. They know that different people have different needs. They know that if you're a renter, you can't necessarily set up the same amount of equipment and it can't be on the walls permanently as you could do if you're a homeowner. So they're great for renters, they're great for homeowners. No contracts, no hidden fees. Visit simplisafe.com msheet to claim 50% off a new system with a professional monitoring plan and get your first month free. That's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like Simplisafe. So we wanna shout out one of our wonderful sponsors right now. And that sponsor is Happy Mammoth. This is a wonderful natural wellness brand. We've been using it and it's been terrific. They're a great solution if you feel like you might be dealing with some hormone disruptors. I mean, that kind of happens to everyone. It's in the air, it's in the food, it's in lots of different products.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So it's really reduced your cravings.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, for me, it's. I mean, I get cranin nuts about my cravings. Sometimes I will, you know, suddenly really want Macintosh apples, which aren't even in season, and various other things. We all know I've been stealing a lot of cereal recently, or allegedly, I should say. And so to kind of help beat that, I've been using their Hormone Harmony supplement. It's just a supplement. You take it a couple of times, you know, couple doses, and I feel like it's boosted my gut health, to be honest. It's also something that women who are in perimenopause or menopause, they can use it and it's going to reduce your hot flashes. You're going to have more energy, get to sleep better. So it's really good for women of all ages. But for me, the gut health element of it has been really special. So if you're interested, for a limited time, you can get 15% off your entire first [e-mail] just use the code msheet at checkout. That's happymammoth.com and use the code msheet for 15% off today.