The Yogurt Shop Murders and Serial Killer Robert Eugene Brashers:

First Person: Steve Kramer on the Federal Bureau of Investigation, DNA, and the Golden State Killer

Podcast: Murder Sheet
Episode Date: December 9, 2025
Host(s): Áine Cain & Kevin Greenlee
Guest: Steve Kramer (Law enforcement veteran, FBI in-house counsel, co-founder of Indago Solutions)

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Steve Kramer, a former FBI attorney who has been pivotal in leveraging DNA—specifically genetic genealogy—to solve notorious cold cases. Kramer shares his career journey, insights from the Golden State Killer investigation, and explains the breakthrough developments in the 1991 Austin Yogurt Shop Murders, where DNA and ballistics have now linked serial killer Robert Eugene Brashers to the crimes. The episode examines the evolution of forensic technology, the realities of federal law enforcement work, and the collaboration required to bring decades-old cases to a close.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Steve Kramer’s Unconventional Path to Law Enforcement

• Kramer never intended to become an attorney, initially aiming for a medical career and later finance. At his father's suggestion, he went to law school and discovered a passion for prosecution during an internship with the San Diego DA’s office.
  • “I loved being in law enforcement, and I enjoyed prosecution… it was super fun, you know, going out to crime scenes at night, you know, under the police tape, talking to detectives.” – Steve Kramer (08:01)
• Early prosecutorial work in Maricopa County saw him quickly handling homicide cases, before joining the FBI as in-house counsel in LA.

Reality vs. Myth: Life Inside the FBI

• Law enforcement work at the FBI is marked by strict internal policies, not the dramatics of TV and movies.
  • “The FBI is very constrained, very constrained, you know, by its own policies and regulations....” – Steve Kramer (25:06)
• Hollywood tropes of FBI-local police conflict don’t reflect the collaborative reality.
  • “I can never remember a scene where like, like the FBI rolled up to the locals at a scene, said, all right, we got it, we're taking over. Like, that's never, I’ve never seen that in my life.” – Steve Kramer (27:28)

Espionage, National Security, and Handling Internal Spies (23:45–24:39)

• Kramer was part of a secret FBI squad investigating moles within the Bureau.
  • “It was really interesting…pick out like a handful of prosecutors and agents and...work in a separate squad…It was a very successful operation. And we rooted out, you know, a lot of interesting things.” – Steve Kramer (21:45)
• The squad investigated and charged agents, including J.J. Smith, for espionage and improper foreign relationships.

Early Involvement with DNA and the Golden State Killer Case (30:23–47:54)

• Drew on his early legal scholarship on DNA (with roots in the O.J. Simpson trial) when introduced to the “Golden State Killer” case.
• Kramer's persistence and focus on innovative technology led to negotiating with genetic genealogy companies to use their databases for criminal investigations.
• Instrumental in the first identification of a serial killer (Joseph James DeAngelo, the Golden State Killer) using genetic genealogy.
  • “Here’s six of us...five of what five of us knew nothing about genetic genealogy, and we solved this major case.” – Steve Kramer (43:02)
  • “The news was really how we did it. Like, how we use genetic genealogy. I mean, that quickly overshadowed...the crimes of…[DeAngelo].” (47:54)

After Golden State: Founding Indago & Expanding DNA Technology (51:47–54:25)

• Kramer and colleagues left the FBI to accelerate innovations in forensic genetics, launching Indago Solutions, aiming to automate and expedite family tree generation in criminal investigations.
  • “To really...try to make a dent in that and actually catch these criminals before they commit more crimes is—that’s why we’re doing the software.” – Steve Kramer (54:36)

The Austin Yogurt Shop Murders & Serial Killer Robert Eugene Brashers (55:26–71:43)

Background:

• 1991: Four teenage girls are bound, sexually assaulted, shot, and the shop is set ablaze.
• For years, DNA evidence cleared previously accused suspects, but the true perpetrator remained unidentified until recent forensic breakthroughs.

Breakthrough:

• Indago’s team, collaborating with Austin PD and Texas AG’s office, was part of a national expert group re-examining old evidence with advanced DNA extraction and analysis techniques (58:52–61:04).
  • “Any of these cases...it’s always a team effort…The people that preserved the evidence in the very beginning...they’re heroes.” – Steve Kramer (61:04)
• Success required blending genealogy, Y-STR searches, and ballistics (NIBIN) hits across multiple states:
  • The use of Y-STR (male chromosome) DNA, cross-state collaboration, and improved lab techniques led to a match with Robert Eugene Brashers—a previously identified serial killer exhumed in 2018 following DNA work by CeCe Moore.
  • Ballistics matched shell casings from the Yogurt Shop to cases in Kentucky and South Carolina, with Brashers’ unique crimes and travel corroborating the DNA findings (68:00–71:00).
• Despite a failed fingernail scraping test years earlier, new lab work yielded the crucial CODIS match.
  • "Dan took it out to another laboratory...they were able to develop a partial STR CODIS profile enough that they could use it to identify whose DNA that was. And so then they compared that DNA from the fingernail scrapings of Amy to the Greenville suspect…it was a match.” – Steve Kramer (68:00)

Memorable Teamwork Moment:

• Dan Jackson (Austin PD) coolly texted Kramer about cracking the case after Kramer’s repeated “harassment” for updates:
  • “He texted me…‘Hey, I think I solved the case. I’ve been really busy.’...I’m like, you are such an ass...Can you imagine this? We're working this case, you know, for two and a half years. And he’s like, I think I solved this.” – Steve Kramer (64:55)

Lessons & The Future of Genetic Genealogy (71:43–76:20)

• The Yogurt Shop case exemplifies how treating cold cases with urgency and assembling focused, multi-disciplinary teams can break decades-old mysteries.
• Kramer believes forensic genetic genealogy should be used in all relevant cases, not just cold cases—and advocates for automation and wider education:
  • “Forensic genetic genealogy is not a cold case technique…it is for any criminal case...It should be used in every case.” – Steve Kramer (72:24)
  • “You have better DNA on cases that happened yesterday than you did on cases that happened 10 years ago. So we should be using this on every case.” – Steve Kramer (73:55)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On FBI Regulations:
  “The FBI rules are really set up, I think, more to catch agents doing something wrong...there’s just a lot.” – Steve Kramer (28:16)
• On Cold Case Investigative Mindset:
  “If you treat a cold case like a cold case, oh, we’ll get to that next month...Then the cold case is going to remain cold. But if you treat it more like an active case, why can’t we do that today?” – Steve Kramer (39:42)
• On Golden State Killer Breakthrough:
  “Once I understood a little bit about how genetic genealogy worked...I’m like, oh, we’re gonna solve this case...100% confident I will solve it within five years. 80% within 12 months.” – Steve Kramer (45:14)
• On Collaboration:
  “Total credit to Dan Jackson and Mindy Mofford — ran it the right way, never gave up… I was mostly a cheerleader to them on it.” – Steve Kramer (70:30)
• On Impatience and Drive:
  “I am very good about harassing people…we were actually told by a high-ranking person at the FBI…‘You guys just want to solve all the cases right now, don’t you?’” – Steve Kramer (63:01)

Key Timestamps

• 04:19–10:42: Kramer’s early career in prosecution, entry into FBI
• 13:14–24:39: Espionage investigations and internal FBI mole hunt
• 25:06–30:23: Dispelling FBI myths and explaining internal realities
• 30:27–47:54: Golden State Killer case—origins, obstacles, genetic genealogy application
• 51:47–54:25: Post-FBI, the founding of Indago, automating genealogy software
• 55:26–68:00: The Yogurt Shop Murders case: investigation relaunch, DNA and genealogy strategy, breakthrough details
• 68:00–71:43: Ballistics and DNA converge—identifying Brashers, multi-technique success, credit to the full team
• 72:24–76:20: The future—advocacy for wider and faster use of these techniques
• 76:20–76:31: Closing thoughts and thanks

Takeaways for Listeners

• Law enforcement cold case work is laborious and procedural but can be transformed by new technology and persistent, multidisciplinary teamwork.
• Genetic genealogy and modern DNA analysis have fundamentally changed criminal investigations, unlocking decades-old mysteries previously thought unsolvable.
• Successful breakthroughs require not just science, but relentless drive, strategic thinking, and collaboration across agencies and fields.
• Advances in forensic tech should not be limited to cold cases—their application in active investigations could prevent additional crimes and save lives.