Anya Cain (2:43)

I think it's basically about how we look at true crime. I think that's the best way to think about it. And sort of some. Oh, some truths that we sort of see pop up again and again. And what we're trying to do by talking about this is give you a bit of a cheat code for when you're analyzing true crime, when you're analyzing our true crime, when you're analyzing true crime made by others. It's. It's just a way to kind of, I think, think about this stuff in a way that maybe hones critical thinking skills and maybe hones your ability to kind of like, avoid time wasting nonsense. Is that a good way of saying it?

Kevin Greenlee (3:23)

Sure. Why don't you push the music and then we'll get started. Just give us a chance, folks.

Anya Cain (3:29)

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

Kevin Greenlee (3:31)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

Anya Cain (3:34)

And this is the Murder Sheet.

Kevin Greenlee (3:36)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

Anya Cain (3:44)

And this is True Crime Truths, Ciphers, and Solutions. I just want to start off by saying that was the most ignominious start to a show that I've ever been on. You looking at me with the most desperate look on your face, yelling, give us a chance. Folks, I'm sure that has not really spurred a lot of confidence from the audience.

Kevin Greenlee (4:49)

This is like the beginning of a little mini franchise within the murder scene.

Anya Cain (4:54)

You're red face, and frankly, you should be.

Kevin Greenlee (4:59)

So you'll understand what this. This is. So here's what I propose as a true crime. Truth number one. Amateurs who announced that they've solved a big case by decoding a cipher are always wrong.

Anya Cain (5:14)

Yeah, I think that. Yeah, I agree with that.

Kevin Greenlee (5:18)

That that's something that happens quite a lot, and I'm not aware of an instance where it's panned out. And I'll go further and say that generally a lot of talk about ciphers and solving codes is something that is a hallmark of crank history. Certainly there's a lot of people out there who put forth the idea that Shakespeare did not write Shakespeare's plays. And one of their big pieces of evidence that they trot out is, oh, look at these codes and ciphers, and Francis Bacon or whatever. I think there's literally the Da Vinci Code, where there's, like, secret messages and paintings and stuff about the real truth that happens. And when it comes to true crime, people will look at someone like the Zodiac and say, okay, not only did this person make a code, but he must have made it fairly. He must have made it an accurate code.

Anya Cain (6:25)

He wouldn't lie about this.

Kevin Greenlee (6:26)

Why would he do that? And he must have put his real identity in there.

Anya Cain (6:30)

Yeah, and his Social Security number, everything

Kevin Greenlee (6:32)

we need to know to identify him. And he must have done it. This person, this non entity loser who's killed a lot of people, he must have done it in such a brilliant way that all of the experts who spent their lives decoding codes, they haven't been able to solve it. But look, this guy sitting alone at his computer today, just an amateur, he very calmly solves it, case closed.

Anya Cain (7:05)

Very calmly. Yeah, I think that is. I think you're hitting upon something. I can tell you why I think this sort of, sort of view or why this keeps happening. And that is because I think we all love the idea of solving it ourselves. Or like the intrepid amateur sleuth coming in and schooling the police, because that's what almost every mystery novel is about. And so it kind of makes the public enjoy that kind of thing and it makes it more accepting of that kind of thing.

Kevin Greenlee (7:38)

And to a certain extent, we saw that in the Delphi case, because in that case we had a video of the killer and so people could look at that. And I think one of the reasons why people got so involved in that case was the solution to the mystery of who killed those girls is literally right in front of our eyes. We just have to figure it out. And so that gives you the illusion that you have all the information the investigators have and maybe you can figure it out. And if you believe in the integrity of a cipher, whether it's in the Zodiac case or whether it's the real author of Shakespeare or the secret history of Da Vinci, if you believe in the integrity of those codes, then you think, well, I'm seeing everything the experts are seeing. Maybe I can figure it out too.

Anya Cain (8:24)

Yeah, it's like I can play along at home. And I think that's actually a positive impulse from people because they want to help and they want to participate. It can go into some pretty wild and inaccurate places, but I don't think it's necessarily usually a harmful impulse, but I think there are actually better ways of putting that impulse to work. One, one of those being going into investigative genetic genealogy and going into, you know, the kind of genealogy side is a way for a lot of people to get involved, maybe work with some Doe cases, give some does their identities back or identify offenders. That's a way for people. I've talked to a lot of people in that space and they're often just, you know, they have. They have a day job, and this is their passion, and they're doing it, and they're doing great work, and they're actually solving cases. That's the one instance where I'm seeing the civilians really punching above their weight. And I commend everyone in that space because I think that is an opportunity where people are putting that impulse, and it is kind of like a puzzle you're piecing together. Okay, this is this guy's cousin. Let's look at the records. Was there a cousin that's missing? That's where we can have that same impulse. But you're actually achieving results versus what I would say is probably. I mean, I think there's a. It's not always about the ciphers, but has anyone noticed that every couple of years there's a couple of headlines saying, oh, wow, the. These sleuths say they solved the Zodiac murders, or these sleuths say they solved Jack the Ripper? Has anyone noticed that? And did they? The answer is no. The headline, I mean, it's. It's bad. It's bad. Reporting, first of all, from the mainstream press, as usual, with this kind of thing, instead of coming into the same thing happened with, what was it? The guy who fell out of the air jumped out of the.

Kevin Greenlee (10:19)

Cooper.

Anya Cain (10:19)

Cooper. Yeah. So, like, people just kind of run with this, and the press breathlessly reports on it and frames it in the most broad and inaccurate way possible and over the top way possible. But does it mean it actually got solved? No. And one big reason for that is some of these really old cases are, frankly, possibly unsolvable. And then even the ones that aren't, you would really need more evidence for the police to consider it solved. And somebody claiming to solve a cipher, somebody claiming to have one piece of information is not a solved piece.

Kevin Greenlee (10:56)

They say, oh, we have the code, or whatever. But often in these cases, when the solution to the cipher is presented, it's like they had a suspect or they had some idea of a suspect, and they worked. They tailored their solution to that. I keep on talking about the people who say, oh, there's a code that Francis Bacon wrote Shakespeare. A lot of those people already had that solution in mind when they went and found this code. And it's like a game. If you want to believe anything, you can look and you can concoct your own code. Like, look at the statements of FDR during World War II, and you could probably find little hints. Oh, if I look at every other word here or this, maybe I could make it like he's saying something else.

Anya Cain (11:46)

Yeah. When you want something to be true so badly, you will find that truth wherever, wherever you look, because it's, it's just what you want to believe. And I think a lot of us, a lot of people struggle with that, maybe in, in other walks of life. But certainly you actually, you were, you've been reading a lot about the Shakes, the, the author controversy of, of William Shakes.

Kevin Greenlee (12:09)

And I do that because I love wasting my time.

Anya Cain (12:11)

And, and you, you, you actually kind of came to a conclusion that I thought was interesting because that also involves a lot of codes, things like that, people trying to sleuth it out. And you said it struck you as extremely similar to a lot of the kind of crankery we see in true crime.

Kevin Greenlee (12:30)

Yeah. The behavior we see in true crime is not new. It's played out through history in a variety of forms and in pseudo academic settings and actually academic settings with things like Shakespeare.

Anya Cain (12:45)

I really think that that is mostly snobbery at play for somebody to say that, oh, the only way that you would experience things like power and romance and, you know, whatever is, if you are a nobleman, is, is just the most classic, the classist, nonsensical stuff that I've ever heard in my life. And it disgusts me on a visceral level. So, yeah, I, I, I find all that very, like, yikes. But I mean, same with a lot of the true crime crankery. Although I think, like, some people with the people who are, like, trying to crack a cipher, I don't think they're intending harm. I think they're just getting carried away with something. I want to say this. I studied history in college, right? And I loved history. I love history. One thing about studying history, I guess, is, like, it's not just people coming in and, like, throwing out their hot takes, right? Like, you don't just have historians kind of being like, yeah, I think, I think Abraham Lincoln was pretty cool, you know, like, or like, he was relatable. Like, there's a, there's a process within academia within, you know, scholarship called peer review. And that is like a very much, that is a very important, I guess, concept that acts as a filter. So one aspect of academia in, say, history, for instance, because that's what I'm familiar with, is, you know, you have to publish research, you have to publish scholarly articles within academic journalist journals. And peer review is a way for your peers essentially to review and possibly rip apart your research. And it always struck me as like, wow, that seems like a very, you know, that would be pretty rough to go through for the academics. But what it does is basically it keeps everybody honest and it ensures that stuff that isn't just like people assuming things is getting in there. And it makes, it makes the work more trustworthy and more scholarly, I guess. And that kind of quality control is absent in most forms of new media and certainly even I would say a lot of mainstream press now the role of editing is, you know, really, is really going down. But I would say with like, with stuff when someone's claiming like oh we solved Zodiac or oh, we solved Jack the Ripper, if there isn't like any peer review to, to look, to whatever extent that might be possible, it's like, I don't take that seriously at all. Neither should you. Because like what, you're just saying that. And also like of course you're saying that. Cuz you're not gonna get any headlines if you say, well, we are still working on it, we haven't solved it yet. But I mean like it just at some point you have to be skeptical about claims like that. If you're like us, you're trying to save money right now. One major personal finance hack we've discovered is investing in clothing staples that hold up over time and never go out of f. That is why we love our sponsor, Quince.

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Kevin Greenlee (19:17)

And let's go back to what I was saying in the beginning. Anya, do you really think that someone like the Zodiac would be brilliantly constructing codes and playing by Marquis of Queensberry rules completely fairly and above board. And he's constructing these brilliant ciphers that experts have failed to break for decades, but when they are finally broken by today's amateurs, they're going to reveal true facts. Because let me ask you this. I can imagine a situation where you're a very smart woman. I can imagine a situation where someone at a grocery store discovers a huge theft of cereal boxes, and there is a note in cipher left behind. And I can imagine nobody being able to break that. And then, like, 30 or 40 or 50 years from now, an amateur breaks it, and it says, kevin stole the cereal. In other words, even if you break the cipher, who's to say that the information in the cipher is accurate?

Anya Cain (20:24)

Yeah, I. Like, what if I'm just framing somebody

Kevin Greenlee (20:26)

I don't like or someone you love? Because my understanding is you love me.

Anya Cain (20:34)

I'm framing my little sweetie. Yeah, I don't know. I agree with you. And it's like. Also, like, you're assuming that he. I mean, listen, you say I'm smart. I think I do dumb stuff all the time. Also, I don't know if I. Like, even if I really tried to construct a cipher, I might mess it up. I don't have that attention to detail always. So I guess I'm just. I agree with you. Like, it reminds me, like, there's. I really do feel, and I don't know, like, I never see people talking about this, but I really feel like so much of our understanding of true crime is so influenced by fiction. And if you're writing. If. If I presented to you a fictional story, Kevin, that I wrote, and a cipher was one of the clues, and then I had the cipher at the end pan out to me. Nothing. Depending on how I wrote that, you might say, well, that's kind of unsatisfying. Like, you're gonna set up this cipher as this big thing, and then you're gonna have it be nothing. And so I think people are almost operating by those rules of, like, well, it has to mean something. No, it doesn't. Like, nothing has to mean anything in real life. Real life mysteries are not like fictional mysteries. Fictional mysteries are when they're good, crafted by an expert fiction writer who is making them as entertaining and cool as possible. They're cutting out all the fluff. That's why in detective fiction, you know, you're not gonna see that your detective hero go back to the office and file a bunch of reports for hours. Like, because that's not the interesting part of the job. And the same Thing with the mystery side of things, the clues, you know, in real life, there are things that don't add up, there are coincidences that don't pan out, and there are clues that turn out to mean something different or ultimately don't really lead anywhere. And I just think that we need to keep that in mind when we're hearing people make claims about real life cases.

Kevin Greenlee (22:28)

And I think this reminds me of something else that you sort of bring up there. In fiction. It's exciting and fun when we have an amateur come along and show up the police. Whether it's like a Sherlock Holmes or someone like that, just a gifted amateur. But in real life, if you actually do have a situation where a cipher or a puzzle is an important part of the case, that cipher will be solved by someone either in law enforcement or consulted by law enforcement who is an expert. It won't be solved by your aunt Susie, who's really good with crosswords.

Anya Cain (23:14)

Wow, you're just slamming the amateur sleuths right now.

Kevin Greenlee (23:19)

I love the amateur sleuths. We met because we were trying to sleuth out Burger Chef.

Anya Cain (23:24)

We were. We were. I think. I guess, like.

Kevin Greenlee (23:30)

And I have no problem with people trying to solve things on their own.

Anya Cain (23:33)

It seems harmless for the most part.

Kevin Greenlee (23:35)

But what bothers me is when media companies try to blow those things up into something they're not.

Anya Cain (23:42)

That's my problem too. I think that I'm. I'm in agreement on you. I really don't mind Susie at home messing around with the, the Zodiac cipher. I don't think. I don't think that's gonna work. But if, you know, on the, on the, like, zero point, you know, 00, 01% chance that she gets it, great, wonderful, you know, will happily tip the hat to her. But it is frustrating when you see media cover things where it's like an amateur sleuth claiming to have broken a cipher. And it's like, how do we know? Like, you know, and like the like and, and, and, and oftentimes claiming a case is solved or, you know, and they do the sneaky thing where they're like, oh, sleuth claims to have solved it. It's like, yeah, but you're still telling people it's solved.

Kevin Greenlee (24:28)

You know, I think, I think, Ms. Cain, you're inching towards the second true crime truth of the proceedings.

Anya Cain (24:36)

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (24:37)

What. What is that second true crime truth? Ms. Cain?

Anya Cain (24:40)

If a book or documentary series or some other kind of true crime project promises to offer a final, definitive solution to an Unsolved crime. They are grossly overstating matters.

Kevin Greenlee (24:53)

Yes. That is marketing. And they are often, I'll say it, lying to you. And I tend not to want to pay attention to people who are lying to me. Think of an unsolved crime from decades past as something like an archaeological dig. When archaeologists find relics and stuff from the past, they use that information to try to piece together what everyday life was like. And I think I got this metaphor from Scott Turow. And they make assumptions and guesses. And that is very similar to what investigators do when they are trying to solve a crime. And it gets to a point where you have enough evidence that maybe you have broad strokes of a crime, but you don't have absolutely every tiny, tiny little detail. And maybe it's a situation where you're never going to have every last little detail. But when someone comes out and says, oh, we have the final last details, and now we know definitively who killed jfk, you know they're lying to you.

Anya Cain (26:09)

Yeah. Also, we already know who killed jfk. It was the Harvey Oddswald.

Kevin Greenlee (26:14)

Exactly.

Anya Cain (26:15)

Beat you to the punch, folks. I think I, I hear, I, I, I think what you are saying is accurate, and I agree with it. I will carve out a caveat that I think you have started to carve out, but for me, it's about the, the emphasis, it's about the tone, and it's about the, like, the level of the claims. If someone is coming to me and saying, I have definitively solved Jack the Ripper, I'm gonna say, no, you haven't. If someone comes to me and says, here's my suspect, here's why I think this, and here's why I think it's the best suspect out of all of them. I'm more open to that, because then it's just about saying, this is what I think. I'm open to be wrong. But from the information we have now, this is what I think is the best solution. I don't have so much of a problem with that. That's just hypothesizing.

Kevin Greenlee (27:04)

But the problem is, Anya, if someone comes out and says, oh, I have some interesting information, I kind of think this guy might be Jack the Ripper. What do you think, folks? And someone else comes out and says,

Anya Cain (27:15)

this is Jack the Ripper, and I

Kevin Greenlee (27:17)

can prove it, which of those things are most people gonna watch? They're gonna watch the one that makes the most extraordinary claims, which is probably the one that is least responsible.

Anya Cain (27:27)

That is what is so troubling about some of this is. It's the. The confident idiot versus the intellectually honest person who's not going to make over the top claims. And who's the public gonna go with? Obviously, the. The confident idiot. Because they want, you know, they want. They. We crave certainty. We crave, you know, oh, we solved it great. You know, we don't. We don't crave the nuance, and we don't crave the. Well, this is the. What I think is the best. So it. This game favors people who are either not that bright or also are willing to be intellectually dishonest.

Kevin Greenlee (28:04)

Right.

Anya Cain (28:04)

And. And that's what. And the. And again, so it's not about. You can't listen. We've had people on the show who've had books about historical cases, and they've said, hey, I think this is the best suspect. That's fine. That's not really what we're talking about. What we're talking about is people saying they have the definitive solution. This is it, folks. We solved it. I guess for me, in general, there

Kevin Greenlee (28:25)

was an author a few years ago, a prominent mystery writer, who said, I've solved Jack the Ripper. And it's definitely this artist, Walter Sickert. And that's the sort of thing that just makes me very, very skeptical.

Anya Cain (28:41)

It's intellectually dishonest. I don't like that. And also, like, yeah, just knock it off with real crimes. You know, if you want to write some fiction where, you know, you solve it or, like, I don't know, it just. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. And, you know, and also, this is a cousin to what the issue we're talking about here. This is a cousin to the issue, but I would be skeptical, and I am skeptical. Not, you know, I think you have to. You have to evaluate a project on its own merits. Okay. When we're talking about true crime truths, it's not always everything is black or white. There's shades of gray in between. But you also have to look at what are they saying? Are they saying, I have the definitive answer and, you know, no one can touch me? Or are they saying, no, this is what I think, and here's the evidence for it. You know, like treating it more like an academic issue, treating it in a more scholarly way, treating it more like, you know, I'm open. Like, this is my. Like, the whole thing about a hypothesis is that you take steps to try to debunk it. Right. And that is not always a hundred percent possible with an older case because you, you know, There might be information gaps, but at least you're acknowledging things like acknowledging the information gaps. Things like not speaking so definitively. Things like putting forward what your information is, but also what might be some questions that remain. All those are good signs.

Kevin Greenlee (30:07)

It's like, okay, we found another relic where archaeologists, we found another piece of information and maybe this can make us reassess this or that. You can say that, but don't say, oh, this little relic we found completely changes our understanding of everything and it proves this.

Anya Cain (30:23)

Exactly. And you know, and that's an over time archeologists know that over time interpretations can differ. Right. And you might have an, might have an archeologist look at something and say, this was a barn. This was a barn. This is why I think, because this, this and this. And then later on they reevaluate and they say, oh no, no, this was actually something different. This was, you know, and that is having that kind of willingness to change your mind is important. And not becoming emotionally invested in one outcome. You wouldn't want an archeologist to be like, no, it's a barn. Don't. I wrote a whole paper on it. Don't come at me. It's understandable to become wedded to your opinion, but you can't. We don't have the luxury of doing that when we're talking about real life events that we don't have all the information for. But I think a cousin of this is when you have a podcast that like takes like the Scott Peterson case for instance, or whatever, like something that's been adjudicated very heavily and suddenly is coming out with like the story you never heard before. And it's like, usually we've heard that story before we got it. And when you're framing it as such and taking a kind of contrarian position, again, it's okay to take a contrarian position. But when you're framing it in this over the top way of like the hidden story, it's just, it rubs me the wrong way because it's like maybe it's a hidden story for people who weren't paying attention to the trial or all of the in information from pre trial or the investigation. But you know, it that's meant to manipulate the public. I mean that, that's the only, that's the only, like it's meant to manipulate the public into either thinking that they've had information concealed from them or into thinking that this is going to be a worth their time because they're getting something new. You know, like I really I don't wish this because I believe in freedom of speech, obviously, but, like, sometimes you almost feel like there should be, like, FDA labels on stuff of, like, how. How nutritious the information is, because a lot of this stuff would. Would not be allowed in restaurants, and the freaking local health inspector would be shutting them down because they're. They're selling stuff that's not. Not nourishing. And it's. Frankly, sometimes it's just rotten. Like, I really feel that way.

Kevin Greenlee (32:40)

And for me, you know, so much of my thinking about true crime is really affected by the work I did on Burger Chef, first by myself and then with you. I remember I had the naive view when I first started, oh, there must be, like, investigators or something out there who know the real truth about what happened with this quadruple homicide. And my thinking was there's definitely an answer out there that someone knows. And I think at this point, you and I have spent years studying this case, and if you want me to, I can make plausible cases for maybe a half dozen different people being the killer. But if you try to force an honest answer out of me as to who committed that crime, the answer is, I don't know. And when I talk to the investigators who worked this case and you ask them privately, just between us, the honest answer is always, I don't know. Because there's so many ambiguity in these cases. And so on some level, you're just playing with people's lives and tragedies when you say you have an answer when you don't. Because there's a reason these cases have gone unsolved for decades, and it's because the evidence just isn't there. I'll.

Anya Cain (34:09)

I'll push back on that a little bit lightly because I. I agree with what you're saying, but I do some. Some people do think they know what happened in Burger Chef, and I think that's sincere, and they have a right to that opinion, and they have a right to strongly formed opinion.

Kevin Greenlee (34:25)

But we're talking about, like, media companies here.

Anya Cain (34:27)

Yeah, I know, but I. I'm just. I'm just saying, like, I think that's okay. And I think, like, coming out with a project that says, I think this. This. I think it was. I mean, in. In. What I'm talking about specifically is people think it's the robbery gang in Burger Chef. And I think that's. I think those people are. That's their opinion, and I respect it. And I think that's certainly a strong theory within the case. But I agree with you, in general, I think there's more to the case than that, and if people want to take that opinion, that's okay. But people should also be. There's other schools of thought.

Kevin Greenlee (34:57)

Yeah. I'm also aware in that case, when people present, oh, it's the robbery gang, or it's this or it's that, they are tailoring the information they present to you in order to support one particular theory.

Anya Cain (35:08)

Well, they can't. You know, we're. Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (35:10)

And I, I see that in other cases where people say, oh, there's a definitive solution to this crime, this Jack the Ripper crime, they just share the information or evidence that they think supports that, and they don't necessarily share the evidence. That does not.

Anya Cain (35:23)

I think one thing that's important for us to remember as we evaluate claims around this, just as audience members, is that if it was so cut and dry, why wasn't it charged? Now, there can be a reason for that and that that doesn't necessarily. There can be cases where police investigators or prosecutors drop the ball in some meaningful way. You know, if you show me some case where, I don't know, I'm making this up, but like, a guy was stalking his ex wife and doing all this stuff, and then she ends up dead and they never charged him, and you look at some of the information and you're kind of like, why wasn't he charged? This is. There's a lot here that can happen. So to me, the lack of being charged is not always a tell, but it often is. It often is. It certainly often is. Because I, I think, you know, unless you can show, well, this should have been charged, if you're just saying, well, the vibes were right for this, you know, for this solution, then I, that's not, you know, it's not as cut and dry as it's made out to be. It's not as cut and dry as it's made out to be. If you're, if it's not charged and there's really no reason for, you know, like, there's no indication that the prosecutor was too nervous about it and didn't do their jobs or the police dropped the ball. If there's no evidence of that, then I guess, you know, I, I then, then I think, like, anything is kind of overstated. Because I guess for me, I've come to a point where in some of these cases, I think answers could be possible. Even if prosecution or adjudication is not possible, especially older cases, we might get to the point where it's like, oh, this guy confessed to a bunch of people and had a bunch of specific information. He's dead, it's never gonna get prosecuted. But we think we know what happened now. And, and that's kind of where I'd like to go with some of these older cases. But you know, like, for the most part, I, I think under our system of laws, it, it's more meaningful to me if there's something where it's like, oh yes, this would be charred, right? You know, versus like, oh, we kind of think it's this guy. I don't know, like there just seem. I think people need to stop overstating stuff in true crime. I guess that's kind of the, we can talk about theories, we can talk about whatever.

Kevin Greenlee (37:37)

But the problem, as we say, is that overstating is the way you get an audience.

Anya Cain (37:41)

The audience again. And we're talking about. I, I mean, I, like, I, I think that we personally have a very smart audience not just sucking up to you guys right now.

Kevin Greenlee (37:49)

We have the best audience in the business.

Anya Cain (37:51)

We do, we literally do. But I think we've, we've tried to cultivate like a place of intellectual curiosity and honesty and people who actually care about the truth. And that is really not the case in, through a lot of the, the wilderness of true crime, there's kind of like a little, you know, we're all in like our little bastion here in our corner of true crime. And there's other like minded shows like that and other like minded creators or people who do care about that. And beyond that, people want blood, you know, I mean, people want, I want you to name the guy who did this and so I can freak out about it and people want conspiracy theories, people want all that. So a lot of, a lot of this kind of overstatement seems to be a symptom of the lack of rigor that, you know, basically is creators being rewarded for their lack of rigor and for their lack of intellectual honesty. It's. The incentives in this space are warped because you get showered with praise. Attention, clicks, media attention. When you come out and say Jack the Ripper was this guy, versus if you say, well, I've done a lot of research and this is my suspect, but I acknowledge that these are the problems with this theory and we'll probably never know. But I think based on all the information, my feeling is it's this guy.

Kevin Greenlee (39:13)

And so with that, I think it's time to bring the curtain down on this, our pilot episode discussing true crime truths. So now you have an idea of what we were trying to say.

Anya Cain (39:25)

You were so sweaty about it.

Kevin Greenlee (39:26)

Why are you.

Anya Cain (39:27)

Why are you. Why are you being all, like, nervous?

Kevin Greenlee (39:30)

Well, so let us know first if you think we should ever do this again. And let us know second. Do you have ideas for your own true crime truths that we should discuss? We have a little list. We have a little list.

Anya Cain (39:46)

I'd say, like, for me, the two that we talked about today. Amateurs who quote, unquote, solve a case by decoding a cipher are always wrong. I think that I definitely agree with. I think I definitely agree with the second one. If a book, documentary, or project promises to offer a final, definitive solution to an unsolved crime, they're grossly overstating matters. I think that tends to be true. I think sometimes with the amount, I could see instances where I could actually buy a definitive solution if enough evidence is presented in an honest way. But I think that tends to be true. That's where I come down on these truths. What about you?

Kevin Greenlee (40:23)

Yes, I agree with you. It's hard for me. Maybe it exists, but it's hard for me to think of a book or documentary series that offered a definitive solution that turned out to be definitive.

Anya Cain (40:39)

Yeah.

Kevin Greenlee (40:39)

Can you think of one?

Anya Cain (40:41)

Not off the top of my head. And I think it also depends on. Definitive, for me, doesn't mean someone confidently asserting a theory. It means someone claiming, almost like, that this is the only solution and we solved it and all that. That, to me, is more of a problem. But, yeah, I think. I think be skeptical. And sometimes it's easy to get sucked into a creator's views or a creator's kind of storytelling. And just if someone's coming, like, I think it's just kind of like if someone comes up to your door and says this, these beans are magic and they'll make a giant beanstalk to the sky. I think most of the time you'd be like, that's kind of a pretty specific, outlandish claim.

Kevin Greenlee (41:23)

You are really calling me out for buying those beans yesterday.

Anya Cain (41:26)

Yeah, I'm still mad about it. And frankly, you know, we had one cow and now we don't know. But it. But in reality, it's the same thing with claims around media. And I think that's just be skeptical. It's not contrarian to just be skeptical about claims and to kind of hold people to a standard of like, you know, I think true crime gets better when people are kind of confronted on some of this stuff and confronted on whatever, because usually it's. Usually it's more about, I mean, I'm just gonna, like, like, people, I think, don't realize this when you don't ever work in media, whether it's mainstream or new media. But usually it's less about the person being actually convinced about something. And usually it's about what narrative can we sell to the public.

Kevin Greenlee (42:14)

Right.

Anya Cain (42:15)

I'm just bluntly saying that, you know, you and I don't care about that. That's why we go through this in the most nerdy way possible because we really have no business acumen and are just rambling at you. But a lot of people, and we

Kevin Greenlee (42:30)

like to be honest.

Anya Cain (42:31)

We also like to be honest, but a lot of people don't care about that and they will just tell you, well, okay, well, we can, we can build a whole series around this concept. And it's not about stress testing that concept to make sure it's at least intellectually, rigorously done. It's just about selling the concept.

Kevin Greenlee (42:49)

Anya, the stagehands have their hands on the riggings. I told them they could bring the curtain down. They're waiting. Can they bring that curtain down?

Anya Cain (42:57)

Yes. Yes.

Kevin Greenlee (43:00)

Let the curtain drop as you push the button. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

Anya Cain (43:25)

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet. If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

Kevin Greenlee (43:48)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with

Anya Cain (44:00)

other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening.

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Anya Cain (44:42)

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