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- [00:00]
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It's fall. The air's crisp. The sky's darker. In the evening. The holidays are drawing closer. Time to bundle up and get cozy with the latest sweaters, outerwear and essential layers from Quint's.
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A
As the temperatures drop, I'm once again returning to my favorites. My black V neck sweater and a dark blue turtleneck sweater, both in Mongolian cashmere. I just love wearing them. I love how they feel. But I'm also mixing things up with two new purchases. One is my Mongolian cashmere fisherman crewneck sweater in ivory. It's so cozy and soft. And the other is a black 100% washable silk long sleeve mini dress that's for the holidays when I'm feeling fancy.
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I love my two new quince sweaters too. They're warm and they keep me comfortable against the autumn chill. Check them out. Also, Anya has a delightful blue beret that I love and she's begun to wear.
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A
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Content Warning this episode contains discussion of murder and possibly some cursing.
- [04:00]
A
It's a frame up. Everyone's in on the coverup. The fix is in. The sacrificial lamb has been led to the altar. The fall guy has been procured and is ready to tumble. The cult's influence has reached the highest echelons. The real killers have gotten off scot free thanks to their friends in the local department. All the powers that be, the fat cats, the good old boys, the corrupt and their lackeys and their reply guys and gals are ready to get away with it once again.
- [04:30]
B
No, Anya has not lost it. She's just trying to make a point about one of the most common and corrosive strains we see in true crime discourse. She's talking about conspiracy theories and conspiracists. Real life conspiracies can and do happen. So let's define what a conspiracy theory is for the sake of this conversation. It is any sort of unfounded theory that puts forward some kind of conspiracy to explain a situation.
- [04:56]
A
There are all kinds of conspiracy theories, they are absolutely nothing new. Humankind has always turned to them to explain tragedies and anomalies, but they have been increasingly mainstreamed on social media. Many are strictly political in nature. Some are just kind of goofy, like the flat earth theory. But the ones that I encounter most frequently are the true crime conspiracy theories. Sometimes it's baffling to encounter these conspiracy theories and conspiracists in true crime make us wonder what is going on? Why are people so illogical and ridiculous in true crime? Why can't we just focus on the facts? I remember one time when we were talking to our friends Brett and Alice from the Prosecutors. I made some kind of comment around shared reality. I feel like sometimes we are losing that shared reality within true crime where you have conspiracy theorists just making stuff up. It's a problem. But fortunately, we have someone who can help us better understand conspiracy theories in true crime and beyond. We recently spoke to Sam McGuire. He's a master's graduate from OCADU in Toronto. His master's research was focused on conspiracy and its intersection with art. We recently invited him on to talk about what he learned about conspiracy theories and conspiracists in his research.
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B
In our new segment, True Crimeway, we'll be talking about issues endemic to true crime. At its best, true crime offers the audience a way to learn about stories of crime, social issues, legal realities, and the real human beings at the heart of these cases. It can be educational, compassionate, cathartic, thoughtful and incisive. And it can help raise awareness of cases. Good true crime can also showcase all sorts of different perspectives. It can center journalism, advocacy, legal analysis, investigative approaches, the experiences of survivors or victims, families, and a lot more. This is all very good, but too often we see true crime devolve. We have seen online mobs, harassment, conspiracy theories, ethics washing and more. True crime won't get better on its own. We think talking about these things will help.
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A
My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.
- [06:59]
B
And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.
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A
And this is the Murder Sheet.
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We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.
- [07:13]
A
True Crime Wave, the Lore of conspiracy theories with Sam McGuire.
- [07:24]
D
It's Sam. Can you tell us just a little bit about yourself?
- [08:06]
E
Yeah, absolutely. So I just recently finished up, well, recently, two years ago, my master's degree at OCAD University in Toronto, where my sort of research focus was the intersection of conspiracy theories and sort of the art world, which sort of my art, because I grew up, you know, as an artsy kid and sort of making art and, you know, being in gallery spaces and so on and so forth, and conspiracy, because, you know, I loved watching History Channel documentaries as a kid and sort of getting into that world and doing all the reading. But I think sort of things came to a head for me sort of on January 6th, when I remember I was like. It was like. I think we had a lockdown at the time in Toronto, and I was just like, on my phone and I was working on some project, and I just saw like, oh, shit, they're invading the capital now. So that was like, oh, this is, like, real. Like, this is a real thing that's happening. And, yeah, that's what sort of started to get me thinking about, well, what is this? And what are the nature of these beliefs? Because I think I've always. I grew up Catholic, and I've always been interested in the nature of belief. So, yeah, that sort of got me started on my path of researching conspiracy.
- [09:28]
D
Yeah, that. That was a day I don't think I'll ever forget either. I remember Kevin and I were, like, holed up in our apartment in Brooklyn, New York, at the time. We were living there at the time. And, like, I don't have a good story because we were just watching the Internet, I guess, just like Transfix, but also just like, what is happening to this world? I. I guess, to start off with. So you're kind of exploring that intersection between art and conspiracy. Can you tell us a little bit more about your master's thesis and sort of what kind of work went into that?
- [10:01]
E
Yeah, so it sort of started with this exhibition that the Met did, I believe, in 2017, called Everything is Art and Conspiracy. And the two curators identified these. The two camps that artists dealing with conspiracy theory fall into. Artists who are conspiracy theorists and use conspiracy theory or use their art to prove conspiracy. And artists who use that imagery of the. They use the term disaffected to sometimes parody, sometimes shine a light on the danger of this manner of thinking. And that was sort of the basis of my research. What was interesting about their exhibition is that they made a conscious effort to stop short of 2016. And I believe, in their words, to tell the story of how we got here. And I became sort of interested in this idea of, okay, well, where are we now? Because, you know, 2016 onward, and I completed in 2023, the realm of conspiratorial thinking was so different. Like, even in that four year span. And now I sort of, I, I'm joking with some friends now that I feel like everything I've done is sort of almost innocent in a way. It's just like, oh, everything's worse now.
- [11:19]
D
It's really shocking the speed with which some of this conspiratorial thinking has become mainstreamed throughout politics. But also, I mean, what we've seen in true crime has been very alarming to me, where you have just completely fringe modes of thinking, frankly, at the forefront. And don't get me wrong, that's not new necessarily. Like these modes of thinking and conspiracy theories aren't new within true crime, but they seem to be very prevalent right now, maybe more so than in the past. I mean, as a true crime consumer. Is that something you've observed around conspiracy?
- [11:59]
E
Yeah, so, I mean, that's sort of why I was sort of interested in talking to y', all, because I. Because the main research I did was on political conspiracy theories and geopolitics and mostly focus is focusing on the US and that always was quite obvious. You know, you have jfk like those conspiracy theories and that's. And that's always been present and always been a conversation and like Roswell and Area 51 and, you know, whatever. But sort of hearing your guys's coverage of Delphi, I found it so strange how the same manners of thinking and the same theorizing of malicious groups controlling things infected that situation as well. And I was really struck with that because I feel like that hasn't happened before. Like, yes, like, you know, with something like O.J. simpson, there's a conspiracy theory that the, the police had something to do with it and, you know, maybe they did, who knows? But. And different sort of cases like that, but nothing to the point of Delphi where it's like, no, this is literally an Odinist cult controlling things and infecting every layer of this small county, which to me is just so out of the realm of possibility and just so, so strange. And I have other thoughts on, I want to get into, but I'll sort of stop there.
- [13:35]
D
It's so well said. Yeah, O.J. is going to help us find the real killers. Right. But, but with this, it's not just centered around one person, it's in order to believe. And this is what I try to stress to people because I, I mean, we hear from a lot of people from out of state, we live in Indiana and. Oh, so there's a lot of Odinists running around and it's like, no, you Know, I'm not, I'm not saying there aren't pagans of different, different beliefs, you know, that can be exclusionary folkish pagans who kind of believe a, a racist ideology where it's whites only, essentially, or inclusive pagans where they're just living their lives like they're not, they're not, they're not racist, they're just, they're just chilling. But when it comes to this, it's like you have to believe that odinists, violent group of odinists, have infiltrated like up to the governor of Indiana. Like, I mean, like, I don't, I don't know how else this thing is going to work unless it's really at all levels. And the fact that some people kind of just are like, shrug and say, well, maybe that's true, is just, is shocking. And yeah, I mean, do you see, where do you see this kind of new. I guess, I don't know, I don't say new wave because it's not new, but like this permeation of conspiracy theory theorizing, getting into all different aspects of life. Is this a situation where like, we should blame social media or like, what's going on here?
- [14:58]
E
I think this social media thing is an interesting thing to bring up and something I sort of talk about and think about a lot is, you know, there's this idea, you know, when the Internet sort of first started that you said, and I believe Stephen Fry, but this idea of like, well, the Internet exists now and like there can be no secrets anymore because this is this equity unifying access to information where no politician can lie anymore. There can be no secrets because it'll all just be out there. And sort of the exact opposite happened where now you have all these bubbles forming up and these echo chambers of, you know, and, you know, I say echo chambers, like both sides, right? Like, you know, you have left wing echo chambers and right wing echo chambers and you know, I'll let your listeners decide which one is more dangerous. But so to go back to if it's the Internet or not, again, I think that's also a question where, you know, you did see conspiracy theories like this with the satanic panic of the 1980s or, you know, some of the harmful JFK conspiracies that it was, you know, inside the government or the USSR or whatever, whatever, whatever. I, I mean, I want to say, yes, that the Internet and social media is to blame, but I, it is at least amplified it, right?
- [16:23]
D
Maybe not, maybe not the match that started the fire, but maybe gasoline on the fire.
- [16:29]
E
No, exactly.
- [16:30]
D
It's interesting you mentioned the political realm and I don't want everyone to yell at us, but I mean, I will get political here, but maybe sound annoyingly both sides. One thing with true crime conspiracy theorists that I've noticed, that I've observed is it really does seem to be a bipartisan phenomenon. You know, you have people who are like proud socialists in lockstep with, you know, people who are very pro Donald Trump. I mean, like they're, they're all aligned when it comes to believing, at least in Delphi, that there is, you know, conspiracy, conspiracy afoot. And I found that very interesting because it was like, you know, like, I'm sure these people don't agree on a lot, but they definitely agree on that. And I was, I was a bit, I was a bit surprised by that. What are your thoughts?
- [17:13]
E
I mean, I guess in one way it's good having that unifying element. I don't know, I, I guess is sort of what I've been struck by with especially Delphi is, you know, you have these people from, I'm assuming all over America and I'm assuming CAD as well, maybe Europe, you know, on the Internet. Speaking about this, I, I guess just the main thing I've thought about is well, how does this affect you? Like with, you know, I'm going back to O.J. simpson. Like, you know, you, you, you have the overarching culture of the LAPD's relationship with the, the African American community and that sort of motivate that conversation, those conspiracies. And that's like, oh, well, that make sense. Those, those motivations make sense. Like how does, you know, some 20 year old in New York give a shit about what's happening in Deli, Indiana? Like, I don't get, like, I just, I don't get it. But I, I think. And if I were to put a guess on it, one of the natures of conspiracy is that nothing is as it seems. And sort of this idea of the US against them and holding these beliefs gives you purpose. Because if you have this understanding that, you know, this crooked Odinist conspiracy theory in Delphi, Indiana is happening. Well, I'm a freedom fighter. I'm the one who knows the truth about this. And I think that's sort of what it comes down to. And you know, in terms of like political beliefs, I think, you know, there's extreme people on both sides, again, both sides, but who can hold similar ideas as that, if that makes any sense.
- [18:56]
A
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- [21:21]
D
Make sense and I think what you hit upon with why do people care? I agree. Like on the one hand, I understand Delphi. I understand why people came to care about the underlying case. I understand why people said, oh my gosh, that could have been my daughters or, or that, that makes sense to me. It is a very universal fear for parents and for kids. But when it comes to conspiracy theorizing, it's exactly what you said. And what's amusing to me is you'll see people from the outside who are not from Indiana, who are not from this area, who are really not familiar with it or its culture, making assumptions that are not based in reality or saying things like, wow, there's like, there's a, you know, all these meth arrests in the Delphi area. There must be, you know, like, cartel hub. And it's like, look in your own backyard. You know, I, I can guarantee you that in your town or nearby there's probably a meth problem somewhere. But you don't care about that because it's not giving your life meaning. You only care about it when it's this, this kind of, as you said, this freedom fighter mentality of we're going to solve it. I almost wonder, and this might sound really wild to you. I, I don't, I don't know what your thoughts are on this, but I wonder when I look at like the decline of organized religion and then some of the rise of this because like, organized religion gives some people their lives meaning. And then when you see people not doing that and that, that's not to say that organized religion is the only way. I mean, like one of my best friends is like an atheist and she is so involved in her community. Like her life is ab, you know, she's so engaged. But I feel like some people, it's like they don't, they don't have that community connection. They don't have the religious connection, they don't have the, the working, you know, philanthropically perhaps where volunteering something in their lives that make them feel connected to other people or a, a higher power or a higher purpose. And we're seeing them substitute that with all manner of junk online. And one of those things I think is true crime conspiracies. That's just my theory. I don't know.
- [23:19]
E
No, I, I do agree with you and I, I again, sort of separating the true Crime thing, which I do want to get back to, cause it is so interesting. But this idea in general of the decline of organized religions and, you know, all this. You know, there's this term I forget who came up with. I'm so terrible at names, but the God of the gaps, where, you know, originally. Originally, like thousands of years ago, like, what caused thunder? I don't know. It's. It's angels playing. And now we know what thunder is, those gaps become smaller and smaller. And sort of this term, God of the gaps, I always think about where, you know, we use God or a deity to fill in sort of aspects of knowledge we're uncertain about. You know, like what causes weather patterns or what causes the sun to rise every morning. But now we know those things, and we know that there's very reasonable explanations for it, and there's not, you know, a guy lifting the sun every morning, those gaps become smaller and smaller. And I think people want to find narratives and purpose and solutions that are easier. And I think for folks, an idea that the government is hiding the fact that the Earth is flat is a lot more comforting than then. It's just space and, you know, particles and dust and things that happen to form. Like, I think for people, that's more comforting because that. You can understand that where you. You can't do. I don't understand the universe, like. And I think that's what it comes down to. It's simpler to understand, in a way.
- [25:00]
D
I think that's very astute, and I think it. It does make it more palatable, and it also gives you kind of an enemy to fight against. We need to stop the government from pretending the Earth isn't flat. Yeah, I'm sorry.
- [25:14]
A
That's just.
- [25:14]
D
Sorry.
- [25:16]
E
No, no. I mean, it's funny. Like, every time I bring it up, people laugh about it, but I. And it's. I've. I've gone past the comedy thing of it because I'm just like. I'm so used to just stuff now because I. I use that as like, the most extreme example of these things where it's so hard and fast wrong and there's, like, kind of nothing to debate there.
- [25:37]
D
But, yeah, as ridiculous as the flat Earther movement sounds, there's really not a lot of daylight between that and a lot conspiracies. Maybe the topic is more eccentric sounding. It's more out there. But when you. When you see the lodge or the lack of logic, when you see the. The modes of thinking, it's. It's almost identical because it's like, you know, you know, they're hiding something from us, we're the ones who are going to solve it. You know, it kind of plays on the same mindset. You know, one thing I was interested in, I wanted to throw this out there before we go back to true crime. In your master's, you talk about your family background and how that would almost preclude someone to believing in conspiracy theories. Can you, can you tell us a bit about that?
- [26:22]
E
Yeah. So my grandfather on my mom, on my mom's side was a spy, essentially. I don't like sort of using that term, but he was recruited right out of high school. He was a Austro Hungarian immigrant and he was trained at this place on the shores of Lake Ontario called Camp Axe, where essentially they would train recruits in the art of espionage and guerrilla warfare to sort of go behind enemy lines during, during the Second World War to disrupt German supply lines and you know, dress in uniforms and like, I believe one of the things they studied was to like kill silently and all these things. And my grandmother on my dad's side was part of the horrific Montreal MKULTRA experiments, which, you know, both sort of very traumatic things in my family background and sort of what that aspect of my life has given me, an understanding of the effect that government kept secrets can have on families and individuals. So that's always been a part of my life and understanding that, well, yeah, there are dark secrets out there, but I, you know, my grandmother suffered from severe PTSD as my grandfather did, and I didn't really know them. But you know, understanding the horrific things they went through gave me a deeper understanding of like, when these things are real, it's, it's extremely harmful. And so I think that's, you know, has given me the fuel to sort of rail against these things because it's like, well, no, I know what it's like when these things are real. And to make things up and discount certain truths, I, I've always found quite angering.
- [28:18]
D
Right. It's like, I mean, sometimes I feel with some of this conspiracy theorizing, it's like there's plenty, there's plenty to be outraged about that's real. Maybe was even kept secret for a long time, but, but is certainly real and documented. And that is one question though, because a lot of people may be wondering, well, listen, like, we know bad things happen in the shadows sometimes, you know, with the, with the government's approval or with a large institution's approval. We know that happens, but you know, how do we differentiate between the real and the not real. Because I think that's the difference between an actual conspiracy and a conspiracy theory.
- [28:55]
E
And I think that's something I realized quite early. Where there is a difference, or rather the term conspiracy theory is so broad. Right. Where they're. The example I always, always use is like, you know, I say to my coworker, well, I think my. Our boss is funneling money from the retirement fund and I have these tax receipts and I have all these forms that sort of showcase and I've had it double check by an accountant. Okay, well that's a theory of conspiracy. You know, my boss doing something illegal and I'm theorizing about that. Where, you know, I could also say, well, I think my boss is an alien because their license plate number is something ridiculous that I believe relates to a passage in the Bible that talks about the coming of angels. Right. Both are theories, but the, the standard of credibility is so different. And sort of why I use that is the term conspiracy theory gets used so much where people theorize that Nixon was doing whatever the hell he was doing with Watergate. That is a theory of conspiracy that was proven where, you know, QAnon, which I don't even know what the hell is happening with that now. Like, you know, the Democrats are blood sucking, whatever vampires or the. Sorry are. They're both conspiracy theories. But the credibility is so different. Taking a step back and sort of my understanding and what I believe is that conspiracy conspiratorial thinking and the way we view it now sort of started after JFK's assassination because, you know, the simplest way to put it is that, oh well, the President got shot and that footage was shown on national television. This unbelievable thing happened in front of all of our eyes. There has to be an explanation for this. And if that's true, and then following that, Nixon with Watergate and all these things, if these unbelievable things could happen, what else could be true? And then it just sort of spirals off into these varying different standards of credibility. I think that answered your question.
- [31:13]
D
Yeah, you did. And, and that's, that's exactly. I mean, with jfk, I mean, people did accept the War and commissions investigation at first, but as time passed, you know, I mean, there's not, to this day, there's not really a lot of money in saying Oswald did it alone. There's a lot of money in pandering to what people want it to be, which is they want a conspiracy. They want. No one wants to see the, you know, charismatic, attractive young president who's like representing all of our hopes and dreams for the future get gunned down by a loser. I mean, just a lone loser who wanted to make his mark in history and succeeded. No one. Like, that's a terrible narrative. We want him to be taken down by the CIA or the Cubans or the Russians, because that's more, I mean, it's more epic, it's more cinematic.
- [32:03]
E
Yep. Yeah. No, exactly.
- [32:05]
D
And, you know, I think with a True crime, we see something similar. And what you said about standards of credibility, I think that's one thing I see in true crime, and I'm curious about this for you. I see a lot of goalposts moving where people will say, they'll say, well, they'll make a claim, right? And at some point that claim will be debunked and it will be shown not to be true. And then, you know, I would think with, with non conspiratorial thinking, that would be a moment of reflection of, oh, well, if I thought that was true and it wasn't, perhaps my conclusions here are wrong. But what, what we, we don't see that naturally. We see the goalposts get shifted to something else. Well, it's like, well, you know, ignore that. But look over here. And is that something you see a lot with the kind of conspiratorial thinking?
- [32:53]
E
Well, yeah, I, you know, and I think about the goalposts thing, it's not even with the goalpost shifting. It's it again, I go back to flat Earth because it's like that one is so interesting because it's the scientific method, right, where you have these guys doing these experiments and whatever result they get that will prove that the Earth is flat. And that, you know, goes against the very scientific method of. Okay, well, we'll, we'll follow whatever the results are. And whatever the results are, they have to be replicatable and they, you know, we'll believe whatever it is, but they're working backwards from a conclusion. And I, and I think it's the similar thing with true crime, right? Where. And I, you know, forgive me if I sort of get the evolution of this wrong, but with Delphi, it sort of started with, oh, well, maybe, you know, these sticks on the ground are runes. Oh, well, maybe they're not. Well, no, I think they are runes. And they are runes because of the police and the governor and like all these things. And it just keeps getting blown out of proportion because we're working backwards from this conclusion. But yeah, and, but I think also with the goal posts, I think this is what I can't understand. I can understand the working backwards from a conclusion because you're so set on a belief, and that's fine. Like, that's, I get that if, if you want to believe something and, you know, whatever, but when something is proven to be wrong and people just say, well, it doesn't matter, like that. I think that's what pisses me off because I talk a lot about empathy and wanting people to have empathy for these people, but when folks just sort of say, well, like, oh, that's not true, or whatever, like, that's just, to me, it's two very different things. And I hope I, I hope I made sense there.
- [34:44]
D
I understand, I think I understand where it's like people just being dismissive or, or so one thing we see is, you know, something will be debunked or there'll be information put out there and that just won't get commented on like that. It's just like, we're not touching that. It's the, it's the lie by omission.
- [34:59]
E
Yeah.
- [34:59]
D
And that is frustrating. And, and I, I feel like I do. And I'm, I'm curious, like, if you've seen this in communities, whether it's flat earth or whatnot. I, I, I do have a dividing line between people who I think are genuinely dupes in, in those communities who have been kind of taken in by this and people who I feel are more of profiting from it, either monetarily or getting attention. You know, the, the kind of classic breakdown would be the audience versus the creators doing it, but it's not always so simple. There can be commentators who I think are more knowingly exploiting people, and there can also be creators who I think are, have been taken in. So, I mean, I, I do feel like sometimes there's, there's different levels of culpability here.
- [35:46]
E
I, yeah, I completely agree. And I think, I think a good example from, like, my world is like, Giorgio Sucalos, the ancient aliens guy with the funny hair who's the meme aliens, where I've seen discussions about him where, you know, he started off as, oh, maybe ancient aliens or, you know, maybe that's a theory, and now it's more certain. And these things are true. As, you know, the show is picking up popularity and all these different things where he's very certain about these things now. And, you know, you do have to wonder about certain figures and. Yeah, and you see it with Delphi too, like the, all these YouTubers who are promoting these conspiracy theories. And they're getting attention from the defense team. Like, how much of doubt does creep into them? Or is it just a thing where you put it out of your mind? Because this is what's making you your money and this is what's paying your bills. And, you know, and that. And that's fine.
- [36:46]
D
Yeah. And getting your. Getting certainly your quota of attention. Because, I mean, all human beings, or most many human beings do want some level of attention or phrase or community. And basically, if you don't say what you're supposed to say, sometimes that can go away for. For these people. And here I have a funny ancient alien story. So Kevin and I love novelty. And at one point there was like an ancient aliens live show in Indianapolis. So we were like, we're gonna go. Just because we're just like, that's so wild. And, you know, I mean, we don't believe in ancient aliens, for the record, but we just thought it would be funny. But we go there and it was actually disturbing. It was really messed up. First of all, these guys on the stage are like the smuggest bunch of guys I've ever seen. Like, they're rock stars. I mean, they were so full of themselves. And it was like, what the hell? The worst thing, there was a woman sitting in front of us, directly in front of us, and she was angrily and loudly talking to the person next to her about how she not only believes the ancient aliens are real, but they're still here. And get this, she doesn't believe they have positive intentions for humanity. And, like, she's getting stressed out as she's talking. And I'm just sitting there like, this woman's life has obviously been made worse by any measure by believing in this. She's here, like, basically about to freak out because the ancient aliens are going to, you know, come do something to us. It was like, oh, my God. I mean, it was just, like, depressing. I'm like, I'm sure she has bills to pay. I'm sure she has other stressors in her life. Why does she need to be freaked out about the ancient aliens? You know, I mean, I feel like. I don't know, like there's a mental toll that this has on people, and it does make me sad for them.
- [38:37]
E
No, exactly. And I. I think it's, you know, but it's a similar thing with like, any. Because I, you know, you look at that. You look at, you know, all these things that are sort of designed to create fear. And I don't think the show itself does that. I think the community around it definitely does. And, you know, this is when you get from conspiratorial thinking into these systems of belief and that's where the line starts to blur, where these things almost become, as we sort of touched on before, like surrogates for. For religion, in a way.
- [39:12]
D
Yeah, it really, it does feel like a surrogate for religion. And again, I'm not, I'm not saying you have to be religious in order to be balanced or, you know, anything like that. No, I mean, there can be, there can be kooky strains of any religion and there can be more chill strains of any religion, but it's more of like, it's just replaced. It's been replaced so fundamentally for so many people. And yeah, I wonder if they could get some of the positive attributes out of, you know, volunteering or being part of their community. Whether that's through a religion or through charity work or anything. I mean, a civic organization. I feel like there's a real epidemic of loneliness and that fuels this.
- [39:49]
E
Yeah, absolutely. And I, I think also what I found, sort of going back to Delphi briefly about the Odinist thing, like one of my best friends is. I don't even know what his term is. He's a. He's an occultist who follows through the teachings of Aleister Crowley and he's like the nicest dude. And you know, he and I have like, long conversations about, you know, belief and, you know, what he believes and what I believe and like, like, he's just like the nicest dude. So I always find it so funny when sort of, you know, occult and Odinists and pagans are used as the scapegoat for things because it's like, yeah, I know one. And he's like, we get beer every week. Like, he's great.
- [40:31]
D
Well, it's like, it's like picking on. I mean, with the Satanic panic that happened in the US I don't know if there was an equivalent in Canada, but in the US in like the 80s, you know, it was like everything satanic. Dungeons and Dragons is Satanic. And you know, a lot of crimes were linked into to that. But it was, I mean, it was, it was a farce. It was a. It was, it was not, it was not real. I'm not, I'm not saying that. I'm not saying you can't have a, A criminal who decides to put satanic elements into their crime. I'm not saying that. But like, as far as some widespread. All the Satanists are coming out and Killing us all. No, that, that's not, that didn't happen. And I felt like the Odinist thing was very reminiscent of that. And it was troubling because we talked to heathens. You know, the, the Norse pagans, who are more inclusive, call themselves heathens in the United States at least. And, you know, it was upsetting for them because it was like they're, they're waking up one day and suddenly their religion is on trial, essentially. And I didn't feel the defense did a good job delineating that Odinism is a specific white supremacist gang within the context of that faith. You know, again, like I said, I'm Catholic. If there was a gang of Catholics who were, like, doing some really bad stuff and they had their own thing going on, you know, that would be, and you wanted to talk about that, I would, that would be fine. But if you're just painting everybody with one brush, it's not, it's bad. I mean, especially for a faith that is. Not everyone understands what they're doing. So, yeah, it was, it, it definitely recalled Satanic panic, which was the same thing happening to, to people in that situation. But as you said, it's like, judge people don't, don't be making assumptions based on their religion or, or lack thereof. One thing I was curious about was, you know, we talked a bit about, I mean, why this stuff is corrosive and why it's not great. And one thing in your master's thesis was talking about, you know, engaging with some empathy with people, gently nudging, trying to have conversations versus trying to just debunk and dunk on people. Is that something that you still, first of all, is that something that you still believe? And what are your thoughts now?
- [42:44]
E
No, I, I, I think it, you know, something I absolutely still believe. And I, I sort of touched on it before when I got a little heated there where, yeah, these thoughts are corrosive. And I. The, the Flat Earth documentary, it's on Netflix, I think it's called under the Dome, is really great because there's this moment where they have this gathering of scientific, you know, scientists and stuff, and they're talking, and while the guy says, you know, this isn't. These people are intelligent. They're just sort of looking at these things the wrong way. Like they're doing all the things that we do, these scientific experiments, but they just got that one piece wrong. The engaging with empathy thing is absolutely something I still believe in because, you know, as we talked about, these beliefs are so scary. For folks, and they're living in this realm of fear where, you know, somehow a certain president will be the hero that saves them. And, you know, another. Another political party is, like, fully against them and wants to, you know, kill their babies and drink their blood and all this, where, you know, and you. You read about cases of people who, you know, got out of these situations and, you know, from any side, and it's. It's much better for them going forward. I think what I've sort of realized in the years since is that I think sort of the empathy thing is easier said than done because, you know, you can talk about, you know, I have a friend and we were talking and their. Their mother is, like, stuck. Was stuck at home for a long time because of COVID and sort of in a rural area, and they're watching Fox News and getting convinced of these. These different things. And for that, that's. This realm of fear gets created. But when you're talking about people who are openly antagonistic and, you know, who will sort of shut down conversation, that becomes a lot harder. And I think, I think I also say in that, like, you have the. You have the right to not engage with these people. Like, if you're like, I don't. Like, I know what you're trying to do. I know what you're just trying to, you know, incite anger. Like, you don't have to. I mean, as it sounds, you don't have to have empathy for that person. I mean, you can, but, you know, not in the same way of, well, I'm going to sit down. I'm going to convince you otherwise. Because sometimes people don't want to be convinced otherwise. But. And I think what I was mostly interested in was, you know, if it's a loved one who you see is getting convinced of these theories like this, like, doing your best to gently nudge and say, okay, well, I understand where you're coming from with this. And, you know, maybe you could just listen to this one podcast and, okay, yeah, I'll read that article. And like, just trying to create that chink in the armor where, you know, suddenly people can see the light and go, oh, wait, the world isn't as scary as I thought it was.
- [45:38]
D
Does that, does that ever happen? Like, I'm curious. I haven't. I have not engaged with that in my own life. I've seen. I've seen people in true crime with different cases. I've seen people change their minds and certainly walk away from spiritual thinking. I have seen that. I've not really had a direct hand in any of it. And I'm just curious, like, is that something that's common or is it more common that people just become more and more extreme?
- [46:07]
E
No, it's not common because, yeah, as we sort of talk, like, people get so entrenched in these things. But there, you know, I, I've read there are articles about there of people talking about how, like, I walked away from QAnon and all these things. I think what I've always been interested in is sort of identifying when people can be sort of persuaded otherwise and getting that empathy for them. But it's so hard, right, because I find this part of it the most sort of the difficult thing because then it sort of gets into sociology and like, these systems of belief. And I can talk about, well, you know, okay, well, you say to them, oh, well, maybe you should think about this, or I'll think about this. And then hopefully, you know, somewhere down the line, that little speck of disbelief turns into something much larger. But it goes back to this idea that we're in this world with echo chambers and all of these things. And it's. It takes so much bravery from a person to say, oh, this belief. I've spent how many years of my life on building it, building my life around it, like that woman with, you know, from your ancient alien story. Like, it, it takes so much bravery to go, oh, I think all of this is wrong. I need to reformat everything. And that's, That's a terrifying thing to do. Like, and, and. But you also see it with people walking away from cult, where they go, oh, wait, I think this is actually bad for my mental health and my life and I need to walk away. But that's an incredibly difficult thing to do and takes a lot of strength. And so I, I don't know how common it is, I suppose is my answer.
- [47:57]
D
Yeah, no, it's. It definitely takes a lot of strength. And, you know, when I see people do that in the True Crime space, I'm always incredibly impressed. Because it's one thing, I mean, there's also a lot of harassment that comes with it. You know, it is sort of. I, I mean, I, I know this term gets way overused nowadays and there's definitions of what a cult means, but when I see it, when I see people love bombing, you know, in their recruitment strategies and then ostracizing when people decide to leave, it looks like a cult. Yeah, yeah, that's just my take. And, and, you know, and, and that's. That's incredible strength to be able to leave that. Honestly, I think one of the things in the true crime side of things, I, I say true crime because it is Delphi. Delphi has been like patient zero as far as I've seen. But I do think this is going to be a lot of high profile cases from now on are going to attract the contingent of the community that's just very contrarian, conspiratorial. And I don't think we've seen the last of this with Delphi, unfortunately. And some people call it true crime. QAnon actually, because it's like, it's similar, similar level of thinking. And I just think one thing that actually does drive people away weirdly, you know, or at least makes them kind of start to question things, is that that community is so incredibly toxic that there's so many interpersonal dramas and infighting that it ends up pushing people out just sort of naturally. And then they're able to be like, what was that? You know, if you had a recommendation for someone in terms of, you know, you talked about the Thanksgiving table model and like, how that's been your approach of engaging with empathy and kind of asking those questions, like, what would your advice be to somebody who wants to implement that, whether it's within true crime or a different topic?
- [49:47]
E
What I always say is sort of meeting people where they are. You know, for the other example I always use, and I took this from Michael Barkin's book, so you're talking to someone who's convinced about chemtrails and you sort of, you play the thought experiment of, okay, well, if I believe, like planes are spreading chemicals that are doing whatever to the population, wow, that's really scary. So you, you recognize, okay, that's a scary thought. But then you sort of have to find a way to sort of validate their fears in a way. Validate their fears in a way that's genuine to you. So, you know, with chemtrails, right, you can say like, well, I don't think chemtrails are chemicals. I think they're water vapor, which they are. But it is a visual reminder of the amount of pollution that planes cause, right? So you sort of meet them where they are and then you can sort of build the conversation from that. It also becomes a willingness to listen. And I think something I touched on earlier where, you know, so for example, with someone in True Crime, like, I was just, I got really into looking at the, the JonBenet Ramsey thing again, which I found, which I had, I had a Very certain belief two years ago. And now I have a completely separate belief now, which I, I guess I can touch on later. But, but in those conversations you have to go like, okay, well you know, I'll read that article you sent me. If you read this one and, and you want to do that push and pull. It's also, you have to understand, you have to hope that the person has a willingness to listen. And ultimately it's up to you if you want to engage. And I think that's the thing because it's like, hey, look man, like, you know, I, I studied conspiracy for like two years. Like, this is my bag. But like, yeah, if you're like, your, your uncle is like convinced about Qanon, like the concept of like having to research all the different aspects that he's wrong about, like, that's a full time job. You don't have to do that. Like, only do it if you want to, but it's, if, if it's something you're willing to learn about and it's the person you genuinely care about also, then like, yeah, go for it.
- [52:01]
D
I feel like there's a concept too where like I, there's people who are going down that road but aren't that entrenched in it. And I see that in True crime where they like, they, they like, they're going that way and you can kind of tell based on like how they're talking or the questions or whatnot. And I think that's probably more fruitful for people. A lot of people with Delphi, people in Indiana, people who, you know, kind of were interested in the case but didn't really have a lot of time to research it. Or maybe we're looking more at the headlines and the gist of the articles. They might come away with some really wrong conclusions, just factually wrong. I'm not even talking about people's opinions. I just mean like, they had the wrong ideas. And what I found is when you explain things to them just very factually and say, okay, here's an answer to your question, here's what happened, they tend to be pretty open to that because they haven't at that point gotten into the more community aspect of the, you know, kind of conspiracy theorizing, like, they may be saying things that sound conspiratorial, but they're not, their heart's not in it at that point. And I feel like that's, that's where there's the opportunity for people to have conversations with their friends or families and bring them the materials that can help them get the facts more so than when it's already, you know, when they're already in the cult, so to speak.
- [53:30]
F
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- [53:45]
E
And that's a very good point, right? Where, you know, what I sort of talk about mostly is the person who is, like, completely convinced of these things. But, yeah, you have the other side of things where, you know, you could read a couple articles and just, you know, see a couple tweets and you get an idea about Delphi or, like, anything else, and suddenly that person's believing something that you know is not true. But, you know, if you trust that person's willingness to listen, like, yeah, it's so much easier to say, like, well, no, like, you should really read this. And I've had that a couple times, like, recently. Yeah. Where you go, like, well, no, you should really, like, look at these sources because this is much more accurate than, you know, the couple tweets you read or the TikToks you watched. Right. Where it's like, so once again, it's different degrees of belief and identifying where that person is on. On the. On that downward roller coaster.
- [54:38]
D
Yeah, I mean, like, I might. I myself, like, I. I mean, I. I used to listen to true crime pretty uncritically, I would say, before I started doing it. Honestly, doing it's one thing that helped. Cause I just realized, oh, here's how the sausage gets made, you know, and, like, that, you know, and then also, Kevin's very. Kevin. Kevin has a skill at critical thinking. And I feel like I've tried to emulate that a bit. But, like, I realized, oh, I like this podcast. So I'm just kind of like, adopting the beliefs that the pot. Or, you know, watching a documentary. Oh, this is a very slick documentary. I'm just gonna kind of repeat these points. And I. I've gotten more into looking at, like, original sources with cases and, like, what. What do the trial transcripts say? What do. What do the police reports say? That usually I feel gives people a baseline. And it's not that you can't then watch or listen to things that are synthesized by other people, you know, because, I mean, that's. That. That can be easier. But at the very least, then you have a little bit of a baseline to kind of like, Compare what people are saying to some. Some level of factual basis.
- [55:48]
E
And I think that that's a very similar journey that. That I sort of went on. I mean, I didn't start doing true crime, but. Yeah, like, I won't name names, but I was sort of listening to this, a couple true crime podcasts, and I was like, oh, they're really good. I like their sort of opinions on things. And then there was sort of like one specific case when I was listening to it, and I was like, oh, that's interesting. I wonder where they got those ideas. And then they said, oh, we got. We researched by watching this documentary. And then I watched that documentary and I was like, oh, they're just regurgitating everything from that. That's crazy. I was like, wait a minute, that's not good. Yeah, And I was like, okay, like, maybe I should, like, be looking at different sources here. And that's sort of. And, you know, it's sort of similar to what we're saying where, like, you know, with. When you want to learn the facts about something, it's not always super sexy. Like, when you have to, like, go through trial transcripts or go through autopsy reports and all these things. And it's just like, that's where the real work comes in of, like, looking at original sources.
- [56:52]
D
What you said is so apt because, I mean, that's why after Delphi, I mean, here's the thing. Now this makes me sound like a conspiracy theorist. I love journalists, media outlets, big fan of local news. And, you know, I think. I think people in local news and people in the news that were covering Delphi from the traditional news perspective did their best with a really difficult situation. Like, I can't underscore what a difficult reporting process that was, even for people with press passes, because, you know, there were just barriers to what they were able to do. They had to, you know, if they're going to leave the courtroom, they were gone. So they had to like, okay, do I watch the next session or do I make my deadline? So this is really not meant as some sort of, like, bashing the media thing, but, you know, when I read some of the Delphi coverage, I realize, okay, this is because I was there. It's like, okay, they didn't quite understand this, or I think they may have gotten this from this, you know, and. And so you kind of. There's limitations to. To things unless you're, you know, And I think the. The way around that is it. Most people don't have time to, like, sit through and get, like, hundreds of transcripts. I think what you do is you try to read widely and ask yourself questions about. Compare it to other cases. I feel like one thing that helps us often is that we, like, because we've read widely about lots of different cases. When people say things like, well, how could someone kill somebody for the first time out of nowhere and not be a serial killer? It's like, no, that happens. I mean, we've seen that happen. So, like, having a baseline of knowledge within true crime can be something that can help. And then just reading widely because, you know, one outlet might get it wrong, but then the other two nail it. And so then you can kind of see where's the outlier here and compare and contrast. But a lot of this stuff is like, media literacy, and it doesn't get taught. And I think what people end up doing is they're like, well, the mainstream coverage is terrible, so let's just gravitate towards new media creators. And it's like, that's the wild West. I mean, we're in it.
- [58:57]
E
Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Yeah. Because there's guys like you who are doing this amazing. You know, I, like, I listened to your entire, like, Delphi trial coverage, like, while I was grading during midterms, and I was like, this is fucking awesome. Like, just, like, day by day, I was like, this is great, because it's like, everything you want to know is going to be there. But, yeah, you have those other places that are just regurgitating facts from other sources and all these things. And, yeah, these. These lies get spread. And, you know, maybe not even lies, just misconceptions. And then, you know, all this stuff happens.
- [59:32]
D
I. I really appreciate that, Sam. And, yeah, it was. It. I. I was always worried because we were so tired. I was like, what did we say in that episode? And then I. It was actually kind of like you're. It was like the feeling of being trapped in a bubble, but, like, you're the only one who sees it. Because I felt like there were a couple people at trial who thought that the case was being presented in a strong way against Richard Allen. And we were very much at the. You know, we were in that group, but it was very small, comparatively to everyone else. And we just kept on having these conversations where we were like, are we losing our minds? Like, you know, like. Like, are we. Are, like, are we not seeing something? But I just felt like, I don't know, it underscored a lot of concerns I have about just media in general, whether that's new media and traditional media. But it was just like we just kind of kept on being like, guys, aren't you seeing like what we're seeing? And it was no one. It felt like sometimes very few people were. And then we were seeing people literally just I would, I don't make stuff up, but also just like completely twist things around. Like something would happen and it would be like made out to be this huge deal and it would just be like, did we see the same thing? There might be a master's thesis in someone just looking at like Delphi coverage because I feel like it was wild. And one thing that was really frustrating about the case, and I'm sure you've seen this in other kind of conspiracy theory esque situations, is that there can be a real like tribes form. And one thing that we have always tried to do is just it's our opinion say, you know, we're going to cover it the way we think is right, but people are free to disagree with us and it's going to be our perspective and we could be wrong. There was a reason why we never said anything about whether we thought Richard Allen was guilty or not prior to trial because we were very cognizant of the possibility that we could hear or see something that would really cement it for us either way during trial. And, and to a certain extent that did happen, you know, and, and, and we wanted to kind of leave that open to, to kind of being, you know, seeing the, seeing the evidence and, and what was kind of surreal was just, you know, it got to the point where there were people who were so virulently in the bag for the defense that anyone who like questioned any tactics by the defense attorneys, not even talking about guilt or innocence, just like question tactics were painted as like very pro state. And we were just like what? Like that's surreal. Like, I mean, like, I mean especially if you look at our early coverage, I think labeling us as pro state, I don't think the state would agree with that. I just think it was just. That was interesting that it was kind of like you're. There's this you're with us or against us attitude that I kind of feel like fits the conspiratorial mode.
- [62:22]
E
Yeah, like I sort of originally heard about Delphi from a different podcast from it from again which I won't name and sort of how tragic and horrible the story was. It is for lack of a better term, like enthralling. And you know, so I sort of put it on my mind and you know you know, whatever, when. About my life. And then once, I think once the trial started, I sort of saw sources that were sort of proclaiming his innocence and sort of claiming these, these things. And I was like, oh, that's okay. I mean, I don't know. Like, I, I just got the stink of, like, it's only the same right here. Like, why, why is everyone so adamant that this guy's innocent? And then, like, I sort of did more reading and I was like, you know, your guys's trial coverage was so great and, like, looking at other people as well. Like, it was like, yeah, no, this seems pretty, pretty open and shut. Like, but just going back to this thing of these different camps, sort of what I found especially interesting with the, the JonBenet Ramsey thing where I, like, I watched that silly documentary on CBS years ago where they sort of made the argument that the brother did it. And, like, I sort of thought that I was like, oh, that makes sense, I guess. And then I sort of put it in my mind, and this is that thing we were talking about before where, like, you know, I never made my personality reliant on my theory of seanbennet Ramsey or, you know, Delphi. Like, I was like, oh, man, these are fucking terrible things that happened. And I think that is what happened. Okay. You know, next thing. But you sort of, once you sort of look into these things more, it's like, well, no, okay. These are gross mis, Misinterpretations of the facts. Yeah. And again, like, yeah, you experience it yourself, like, even as someone like me who prides themselves in critical thinking and has researched conspiracy theories where, like, you, you find yourself believing them out of. No, because you don't know better. And, like, I'm sure I believe conspiracy theories right now that I don't even know. Like, you know what I mean? Like, yeah.
- [64:30]
D
And I. Can I just say, Sam, I think you and I went on the absolute opposite journeys because I went from thinking intruder theory 100% to I don't have a specific theory about anyone in the family doing anything. And I, I tend to think probably a most likely thing is some kind of accident situation that kind of got out of control. But I, I, I, that was one case I totally changed my mind on as I read about it. And it sounds like you maybe went in the opposite direction.
- [64:58]
E
I did. Yeah.
- [64:59]
D
That is. But that's hilarious, first of all. But second of all, that's a case where I think, you know, and I think this is where I kind of stress in true crime. I think behavior is more important sometimes than theories. You can have conspiracy theories, but a lot of the problems I see in true crime are people harassing each other or people spreading lies or obvious rumors or things like that. And I think a lot of the problems could be tamped down while allowing for disagreement on theories for unsolved cases with. If we're able to as, as new media creators and consumers, kind of flip the script on, like, what's acceptable. Because I can tell you, just because I have that opinion doesn't mean I would approve. If I saw someone who shares my opinion behaving terribly online, I'd be like, stop it. Knock it off. That's ridiculous.
- [65:46]
E
You know, exactly.
- [65:47]
D
Shouldn't be a cult. We should be people who are, like, having intellectual discussions, who are holding each other accountable on, on behavior. And that's where fundamentally I think that's even more important. You know, I mean, we, we enjoy listening to some different podcasts and sometimes we agree with their takes and sometimes we don't. But the ones I like are the ones where I'm like, I know that there's integrity behind your opinion, and you did a lot of research, and I trust that even if I don't agree with your conclusion, you're showing your work and, and that's, you know, that's, that's all good. So I think that's kind of where, where I see hope in true crime, because I, I hope we can kind of get to that point where we can kind of push off to the side some of the conspiratorial stuff, because it, it often seems very linked to the bad behavior and we can all have disagreements and, and talk about controversial cases without any of that, you know, in my opinion.
- [66:43]
E
And I, and I completely agree because I find this also with politics, like, when you sort of get down to, like, budgeting issues or where money should go, it's like, well, that's not controversial. I think we can have a civil discussion about that. But something I, I really, I really thought about before, I think also why I was a little, like, nervous to talk to you guys was like, especially with Delphi and like, you know, Gemini Ramsey, we touched on, like, at the end of the day, these are conversations about, I'm laughing because I'm uncomfortable conversations about, you know, young girls who were murdered. And there's so much, so much respect and responsibility in talking about these things. And I had to sort of question for myself of like, well, I am going to be engaging in this conversation in a very small way, but, you know, do I want to engage in this conversation and like, you know, I think I have ideas and stuff to add. But, you know, at the end of the day, these are horrible tragedies that happened. And I think for people who are, I don't know, I'll just say this, like, looking at some of the thumbnails when you, like, Google Delphi, it's like, oh, God, like, it just makes your stomach. Like, it just makes my. Makes me sick. And I think that's sort of what I really sort of thought about is like, there's so much responsibility with these discussions of, like, you know, we can have these different theories about, like, oh, the intruder or, you know, the brother, or like, you know, Odin. But at the end of the day, like, there's two beautiful girls who were murdered, and that is disgusting and terrible and I can't even imagine. And the responsibility thing is something I've.
- [68:31]
D
Been thinking about that's really well said. And I think if everyone can take that to heart when we're having conversations like this, true crime will improve naturally because we'll be taking it seriously, as we should. That's something we've really, honestly, like, we've come close at times to being like, do we want to continue in true crime? Feels like the sordidness of it seems to be growing sometimes, or at least from our corner, we see that with being. Being involved as we were in Delphi, but also just other cases seems to be spreading like a mold. And it's like, you know, and the. The one thing that like, kind of keeps this is like, if reasonable people completely seed the ground, then that's not good. I'm not saying we're always reasonable or we're always right. I'm talking about the macro sense. Like, if everything, you know, like listeners and whatnot. And. And, you know, and. And that's. I think that's important. I. When I see those thumbnails, I know exactly what we're talking about. When I see thumbnails, when I see the. The casual cruelty about just random people that, you know, like. And just the lack of reporting just. I know that sounds weird, but bothers me. Like, people will just say things and not bother to check them. Not bother to, like, call anyone who might know and get information. It's just like, source. I made it up and it's like, I don't want to.
- [69:56]
E
Why?
- [69:56]
D
Like. And I don't know, I'm just rambling at this point. It. It bothers. It bothers me. And it bothers me that, that even has an audience. I kind of do feel, though, at this point, with true crime going the way it's going, it's going to be like a red flag to say you like true crime in like 10 years. If it keeps going this direction, it's going to be like, that's on your dating profile, like swipe, swipe left, you know, like that it's going to be giving me a sign of something not good. Because we're, we're getting to the point where I think people are raising reasonable questions about whether any of this is even like something that people should be interested in or people should be doing. And the reason for that is because they're able to show again and again some of this harassment, some of this kind of out there behavior, some of this kind of people's brains getting broken by fear and feel like we need to push back against that and kind of make true crime something where there is some value in reporting the facts or holding police accountable in cases where that is warranted or, you know, providing families an opportunity to speak and kind of have an opportunity to tell their story. There can be different positive things to true crime, but we need to emphasize those over what we've been seeing with the conspiracy theorists.
- [71:14]
E
And I, I think also what sort of makes. Because again, I'm looking into conspiracy and true crime. And as we were just talking about, like, it is almost like a microcosm in a way, because, you know, with the trial, you're, you're disputing, you're talking about facts and what these facts mean. Like that to me is the distillation of, I'm using that word correctly, of conspiracy. Like we have, we can all agree on these facts. What we do with them is different. And I think it's also a microcosm because, you know, this isn't about, this isn't about the presidency. This isn't about global machinations. At the end of the day, whatever this is about, about Delphi, this is about the murder of two girls. And you know, I, I do want to, I feel bad for saying that thing above, like, why do you care? Like, obviously you care because these two girls died. But like, if you believe, like, why are you forming these beliefs that there's an Odin conspiracy in Indiana? Like, that doesn't make any sense, you know, because I can understand why global machinations are scary and why you should care about that. Whatever, whatever it is. But like, I think we're just seeing this distillation and this, this going from the macro to the micro of These beliefs. And, you know, and I. And I think I do fully agree with you that I do think Delphi maybe, hopefully, and I hope it isn't, is the tip of the iceberg. And I'm sort of interested what happens with the University of Idaho murders, because I think that's a similar community that we're seeing grow. But you know who. I think only time will tell. And I do think that I. The. The whole. Sorry, I'm rambling as well now, but the conversation of why do we like this? You know, is something I guess everyone sort of has to grapple with, and that's a whole other separate conversation. But, you know, I. Yeah, I really hope it doesn't become a space where people just sort of look at everyone, go like, oh, this is. This is gross and, you know, sick. And. Because, yeah, I think there can be a lot of good that can come from this, like, holding police accountable and, like, identifying. Like, I was watching an interview with the guy who did the. The director of the Ted Bundy documentary on. On Netflix, and he. He had a point that he was talking to his young daughters and they didn't know who Ted Bundy was. And he was like, oh, I want to make this so people can understand these signs of what this can sort of look like. And I think, yeah, as cautionary tales, almost. Yeah, that's. That's my rant.
- [74:15]
D
Absolutely. And unsolved cases, there's absolutely a public interest in trying to raise awareness and get people talking and increase pressure on authorities to maintain resources. So, I mean, there's a lot of good true crime can do. And I try not to forget sometimes it just feels like gladiatorial combat, you know, like, that's what it's become. But, no, this is. This has been great. Sam, I'm curious, is there anything I didn't ask you about conspiracies, conspiracy theories, anything like that that you wanted to mention that you think it's important for people to understand about the concepts or just anything in general?
- [74:51]
E
No, I mean, I think that's everything. I, you know, I think I did get a little. I, as much as I believe it, I find it very hard to talk about the empathy thing, because it's hard because it's like, you know, people are so on so many different places on the spectrum of belief and, like, where to engage with this empathy thing, like, you know, understanding that people are scared. Understanding that people are scared about things. And I think that's what I always try to remind myself when I'm seeing these conversations. Yeah. But I guess also I just wanted to thank you guys for the amazing work that you guys do because it is like so remarkable and I feel like it's exactly the content I like where it's so like, you know, every fact presented. So yeah. But yes, I think I covered everything I want to talk about.
- [75:44]
D
That means a lot. Thank you so much Sam and thank you for coming on the program.
- [75:48]
E
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
- [75:52]
A
Thanks so much to Sam. We really enjoyed talking to him and we so appreciate him taking the time to share his learnings about conspiracy theories and conspiracists with us. We're going to include a link to his research in our show notes.
- [76:04]
B
Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.
- [76:25]
A
If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com. if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.
- [76:48]
B
Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com if you're looking to talk with.
- [77:00]
A
Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.
- [77:29]
B
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D
Thanks.
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