Kevin Greenlee (2:31)

There is a perception out there that we are Experiencing a fandomification of different spaces. In other words, everything's becoming more and more like a fandom, thanks to social media, talking about politics, activism, and even true crime.

Anya Cain (2:46)

For a while, that distressed me. It felt less than ideal. It felt frankly, unserious. Like instead of having high minded conversations about crime and cases, we're dealing with members of the true crime audience cheerleading their favorite creators no matter what harm they cause or how hypocritical they act, and treating murder defendants like rock stars. It conjured images of hybristophiles running down serial killers, hard days, night style that flashed in my strange mind. At least it just seemed bad. But I happened to connect with Monia Ali, who runs the Fandom Exile substack. She's a self described former fan and Stan who set out to unlock the forces driving fandom today. The corporate influence, the money behind the scenes, and the problems that arise when bad behavior gets rewarded. She's taken a far less judgmental approach. Monia's point is that fandoms don't have to be toxic. They can be pro social and uplifting. So a fandomification of true crime is not necessarily the ultimate problem. The big issue may be really around some of the toxic behaviors that are associated with some fandoms. So naturally, I asked Monia to come on the murder sheet for a true crime wave segment.

Kevin Greenlee (3:55)

In our segment, True Crime Wave, we will be talking about issues endemic to true crime. At its best, true crime offers the audience a way to learn about stories of crime, social issues, legal realities, and the real human beings at the heart of cases. It can be educational and compassionate and cathartic and thoughtful and incisive. And it can also help raise awareness of cases. Good true crime can showcase all kinds of different perspectives. It can center journalism, advocacy, legal analysis, investigative approaches, the experience of survivors or victims families, and a lot more. That's all very good, but too often we see true crime devolve. We've seen online mobs, harassment, conspiracy theories, ethics washing and more. True crime will get better on its own. We think talking about these things will help.

Anya Cain (4:44)

My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

Kevin Greenlee (4:47)

And I'm Kevin Greenlee.

Anya Cain (4:48)

I'm an attorney and this is the Murder Sheet.

Kevin Greenlee (4:51)

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet and this is.

Anya Cain (5:01)

True Crime Wave True Crime Fandom with Monia Ali of Fandom Exile.

Host/Interviewer (5:52)

Okay, so first of all, thank you so much for joining us today.

Monia Ali (5:56)

Thank you for having me.

Host/Interviewer (5:57)

Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background in sort of fandom.

Monia Ali (6:04)

Yeah. So I.

Monia Ali (6:07)

Got involved in fandom when I was about 11 or 12, kind of going online and looking at fan sites and sort of engaging with, like, grab, making graphics. And then I started hosting websites. And at some point I had like 10 different websites at any given time. Just like little fan sites and you would make graphics. And I wasn't really involved in the fan fiction aspect of it at that time, but later on for other fandoms I was. But, like, that is one aspect that people often think about with fandom that you might not necessarily be engaged with, even if you are within fandom spaces. I've always had a great time with it. You would migrate from one media property to another, or one celebrity to another, keep friends from previous fandoms, and sort of like drag people along with you. And then I became a Stan, if people are familiar with that term. And it was a very, very different experience than just being in fandom. And.

Monia Ali (7:07)

It was not good. It was not good. It was fun. It was a lot of fun because the reason people do it is because it is very stimulating. But it ended pretty badly. And I. I jokingly say that I was exiled from the fandom, which is why my substack is Fandom Exile. Once that happened, I sort of started to think about what happened there. How did I go from being like a regular fan who engages with other fans to doing this, and then being so devastated and being so confused about the way that new fans relate to one another and how the industry is interacting with fans and fandom management and all of that stuff. So I started doing a lot of research into that and learning the psychology of fan behavior and group behavior and just looking at the way that worked. A lot of fandom ethnography, a lot of understanding the way industry has changed and their approach to fans and stuff like that. So that's a lot of what I cover on my substack, basically.

Host/Interviewer (8:08)

And what say the name of that again so people can follow it because it's awesome.

Monia Ali (8:12)

Fandom Exile.

Host/Interviewer (8:13)

Awesome. Yeah. I gotta. I gotta say, I myself have a bit of a fandom background. Not. Not necessarily to the same extent as that. The good thing about this is this website was nuked off the face of the Internet. So if anyone tries to find my fan fiction, you're not gonna. It doesn't exist anymore. I wrote Beatles fanfiction for years. I was a very lonely teenager. And when I say that, it sounds like everyone always assumes, oh, it's like, smutty. It was like, the Beatles have adventures. Okay. I was a very sheltered child. This is my. This is. This was like, my deep, dark secret for many years.

Monia Ali (8:48)

No, I love that, because the Beatles fandom resurgence is something that I'm fascinated by. There's a lot of that going on. And, yeah, the Beatles fanfic is definitely, like. Has been. Has been a thing since, like, since the 70s, essentially. So that's not. Yeah, that sounds like fun.

Host/Interviewer (9:06)

It was a blast. I had fun. I mean, I had. I had, like, online friends, and sometimes, you know, I'm like, that was actually kind of a nice thing. But, you know, at the same time, like, I could see getting sucked into something more so than. Than that. And I guess for people who aren't necessarily familiar. Can you just define Stan and, like, what that means?

Monia Ali (9:28)

Yeah. So the term Stan, I believe, is simultaneously from the Eminem song Stan, where he has, like, a crazy fan that's like, obsessed with him and ends up killing his girlfriend and himself and all this stuff. But it's also a combination of the word stalker and fan Stan. Right. In industry language, they don't ever talk about Stans, but they talk about superfans a lot. So to me, superfan and Stan is essentially interchangeable. Stans will often call themselves that. They'll be like, yeah, I Stan this or that, but they won't be like, I'm a super fan for this. Super fan is like the business term that's used because the way they describe that behavior and that attachment is essentially like, oh, you're talking about stands. You just don't want to say it outright that you're looking for these types of people essentially.

Host/Interviewer (10:22)

Right. And you don't. In. In. In the business realm, you don't want to have a core group of consumers named after a murderous character in Eminem song. Who. The woman who sings White Flag? I think so.

Monia Ali (10:35)

Dido. Yeah.

Host/Interviewer (10:36)

Dido. Yeah. So you want to. You want to clean that up a little bit for business speak. And I think that's. We're going to get to this later, but I think it's very important for us to kind of clarify that we're not just talking about a social phenomenon. There's a lot of money in this. And what I'm most interested. And I think why you reached out to me and that. Why we connected is just. It really feels like. And tell me if you feel differently or if I'm overstating this, but it feels like a lot of things are becoming much more there's. A fandomification, if you will, of, of other spaces that you wouldn't necessarily expect that. Like I see that in True Crime.

Monia Ali (11:14)

Yeah. I think like my perspective, and I've spoken to Internet researchers who also agree with this and the consensus, and it could be wrong, but the consensus seems to be that a lot of it has to do with the infrastructure online and how it sort of funnels you into a certain type of engagement and it encourages investment, whether it's monetary or time investment or just like effort that, you know, strengthens your attachments and creates these little communities. And then you start relating to one another and then suddenly it's like, oh, we all believe this and we're all on the same page. And then, you know, eventually someone might be like, oh, I'm not really interested in this anymore. And it's like, wow, you heathen, get out of here. You know, it turns, it turns into these little tweaks that are very self reinforcing because the algorithms and the echo chambers and all of that as well. I like to call it fandom greenhouses because there's nothing objectively wrong with any of this online infrastructure, like just on its face, but just the way that it wants you to keep engaging and wants you to keep invested and wants you to want more and sort of trained you into it sort of fuels that type of attachment and those types of networks. And I very strongly feel that fandom can be healthy. But there is a very big difference between fandom and like super fandom. I like to say that fandom is pro social and standom or super fandom is antisocial, essentially.

Host/Interviewer (12:45)

That makes a lot of sense because I was going to ask you, like, so, so, so the fan culture, when we're talking about fandom versus Standom, what does that look like? What are the signs that you're in a fandom? Potentially, yeah.

Monia Ali (12:57)

So fandoms are essentially communities, or I liked Alan Moore's definition. He says they're networks of cooperative individuals who quite like the same thing and can chat with others, sharing the same pastime and provide support for one another in difficult times. That's essentially like a healthy fandom. You can be a fan and not be a part of a fandom. You can be a fan and you're just counted as part of the fan base. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you're involved in like a community that create zines or art or talks about things and stuff like that. Right. Fandom is more evangelical essentially. And I use that term not because I'm judging it, but because this is a term that business literature has used. When they talk about what they want, they want customer evangelists, right? And they talk about evangelizing and how they want these superfans who will fight for you and who believe that they're part of something greater than themselves and who don't want monetary reimbursement. They want. They're volunteering to be your champion or your army, essentially, because that's another big thing that. Especially if you look at the music press, there's a lot of talk about how they want fan armies without really thinking about what that means. On the flip side of that devotion, if these people then turn on you or.

Monia Ali (14:15)

What will happen as interests wane or, you know, things change over time. Like, they don't like to think about the future. They like to think of, like, oh, these people are army. They're gonna buy everything and they're gonna be supportive of us, essentially.

Host/Interviewer (14:30)

Yeah, it's wild to com. But, like, even just comparing it to an army, like, there's like a violence, there's like a military. So it's just like, oh, man. Like, you know, is that. Is that the paradigm we want to emulate? Because it implies you're gonna go to war.

Monia Ali (14:46)

And this idea that, yeah, you're at war with other, other fandoms, essentially, that is like a big, big part of what is going on in the present day is that you have infighting between fandoms. And this is great for, like, Universal Music Group, right, Because they can have Billie Eilish fans fighting Taylor Swift fans. And plot twists, they're both under Universal, which means that the more they buy of each because they're trying to one up each other, this just helps the ultimate bottom line, right? And this was happening in the 90s with my favorite example is Backstreet Boys and NSync that were created by the same guy and were for quite a long time managed by the same person and at some point were on the same label. And if you were a fan at the time, you were like, we're battling against them. But all that money was going to the same guy, essentially. And he, I believe, explicitly said, like, well, if I'm going to have Coca Cola, I also want to have Pepsi. Like, I don't want someone else to create Pepsi and take money from me. I want to have both.

Anya Cain (15:56)

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Host/Interviewer (19:25)

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Monia Ali (19:31)

Yes.

Host/Interviewer (19:33)

I mean that's, that's amazing. But I mean it's. And, and the way, the way I see this permeate and, and here's one thing and I just, I'm curious your thoughts on this. Like when I see.

Host/Interviewer (19:46)

This kind of manifest itself in other, in other ways in the arts when we're talking about television shows or bands or musical stars or you know, something like that. You know, a lot of that can be very subjective. Up to taste you like this singer, not that singer. And you know, being critical, you know, you don't necessarily need to be as critical of that because we're just talking about like I like rock and roll. No, I like rap. Okay, that's like everyone's valid here potentially. But, but when we see the kind of fandom culture bleed into spaces where we are talking about facts and like the truth, I. That's where I see this get really risky because it's like, like we, that mentality, I don't know if that has a place in a space where we're really talking about facts. Is that, I mean, what are your thoughts on that?

Monia Ali (20:39)

I mean I still think it's really bad when it comes to entertainment as well because a lot of journalists have said that they just don't want to cover musicians or specific things because if they say it's not even that, they say I don't like this album. If they are not reverent enough for a fan base, they can get attacked and doxed and harassed and. Or if they report on something criminal that they have done, they can be harassed and receive death threats. There's a particular scandal called the Burning sun scandal in South Korea, where there were these K pop artists who were caught filming and drugging women in a nightclub and then filming themselves, raping them, and sharing those videos in a chat group. And it took years for this information to fully come out, because when it was first reported, a lot of the fans started attacking the journalists that were covering it. It. And even throughout the trials, they were like, no, this is. He's taking the fall for someone else, or this is real, or whatever. And there's one person that I know because she created a documentary about this, like, how shaken she was about this realization that, like, oh, I was, like, fighting for someone who was, like, a legitimate criminal. And she spoke to the journalist and, like, apologized in person and was just like, I'm really sorry for being part of that deluge against you. But, yeah, this carries over into all other spaces. And you could see this with, you know, accused criminals or. We're sorry, accused.

Host/Interviewer (22:08)

Or convicted murderers.

Monia Ali (22:10)

I mean, convicted murderers.

Monia Ali (22:14)

Or just. Yeah, a lot of that stuff does carry. Carry through. No, I think. I think what's. What's interesting is that there are. There's been, like, these two recognized modes of engagement in fandom, which is affirmational and transformative. So affirmational is kind of like, oh, I love this TV show. I just want to list all of the things that happen, and I want to keep track of the chronology and all the characters and what their favorite things are that we know from canon. And I want to maintain the database, and I want to talk to people that just love everything. And transformational is the one where the fan fiction comes in and the fan art comes in, and you sort of theorize about what could happen. But there is a third mode that is the forensic mode of engagement, forensic fandom. And I think that that is where true crime fans fit in. And it's not. It wasn't. That term wasn't invented for true crime. It was invented for shows like Lost and those kinds of shows that. That. That make fans into researchers who are investigating, who are digging, who are trying to find patterns and violations of conventions. So, like, in true crime, it might be like, well, this person said this in 2010, but then in 2015, they said this. What is the truth? How do we figure out what is what? And like, to me, that's the easiest way to understand how a lot of that works as a mode of engagement, essentially. Right. And wanting to narrativize things. And.

Monia Ali (23:38)

Yeah, you're. You're. You're digging, you're physically, forensically investigating, essentially.

Host/Interviewer (23:44)

I'VE seen so much of that. And, and to be honest, it's. It's not always a bad thing. You can have people who are following a case, and they might be. Maybe they see something or they put something together, get some good research. It can be a positive thing, for sure. It can really curdle fast. And you see as people, you know, digging up, you know, this is. This guy's. He's. He's a. He's my suspect. Not the police's suspect, just my suspect. And here's what he said on this date. And isn't it creepy? And you're like, violating someone's privacy and dissecting someone's life based on. Based on what is essentially fandom, as you said, like, which is, you know, just having this forensic interest and wanting to share that. And just because you have that, that, that doesn't mean it's like, a valid thing to do at all times. It feels like, no.

Monia Ali (24:36)

And people get very carried away. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Sunil Tripathi case, but he was a Boston student who was accused by Reddit of being the Boston Bomber. There's a really good documentary about it by. I don't think. I don't know if his family, like, actually, like, filmed it, but they're, it's, it's basically, they're, they're, they've endorsed this documentary essentially about how that affected them. To have all of these Redditors suddenly being like, we found him. This is the guy. He's missing because he's guilty. And I do believe that the people that were engaging in that actually thought that they were doing something legitimately, you know, helpful and that they were finding the truth. And. But it still had these really bad effects on this family. And, you know.

Monia Ali (25:26)

Yeah.

Host/Interviewer (25:27)

And that poor young man, he just. I believe he died by suicide, and that's why he was missing, to compound something as tragic as that. I remember being on Reddit that night. I don't think I, I was. I really have rarely ever had a Reddit account. Like, to be honest, the site kind of intimidates me for many reasons, but that was one where you're just like, oh, people are talking about this horrible tragedy. And then I'm seeing this guy's name come up, and I remember being like, like, like, we're not getting this from authority. Like, where are people? Like, what? And, like, it just, it just kept growing and. I don't know. I think you're right. I think people do have positive intentions But I. When you're seeing something like that happen, intentions don't. Don't really matter.

Monia Ali (26:11)

No, it's. It's. It's hard because. And I think that's always what I struggle with, because I try very hard not to be judgmental of Stans or these people because I recognize. I mean, I was there, so I know the feelings that are involved and how you think you're justified. And also, like, there are so many emotional reactions to it, and it's very easy to dismiss as well as, like, this is just online stuff. Like, no one cares. It's not real. But it's real to the individual who is having, like, maybe physical reactions to, you know, being harassed or whatever, or, you know, feeling euphoric because they found a clue and, oh, my God, everything is coming together. These are real sensations and emotions that actually do influence the way that we think and might behave. Right. And I think it's more important to understand the process rather than necessarily judge it or demonize it or anything like that. I also think it's incredibly human. And humans have a tendency to form fandom communities since the start because we want to talk to other people about what we like, and we want to commune over things. And it's only exploded because, you know, the printing press and zines and mimeographs, before photocopiers, people would create, you know, send out their zines. And then once the Internet really exploded, you could just find people within two seconds. Right. It's just not as much work to connect to other fans. Right. As you. As it would be in the past.

Host/Interviewer (27:39)

Weren'T there, like, people with, like, Charles Dickens's book who were like. Like, standing on the docks yelling, like, what happened?

Anya Cain (27:45)

A little Nell?

Host/Interviewer (27:46)

I mean, those are, like the original stands, right? They were.

Monia Ali (27:49)

They were.

Host/Interviewer (27:49)

They were actually showing up.

Monia Ali (27:51)

That's possible. I know that Sherlock Holmes had a lot of very intense fans who were very angry that the series was ending and someone did write, like, his own continuation. Didn't write his own continuation of it. I believe there were, like, Jane Austen book clubs. Like, back in. I was just like, yeah, that's a romantic comedy. Jane Austen book club.

Host/Interviewer (28:11)

But.

Monia Ali (28:12)

But originally, when she was publishing, there were these little salons of Austenites who would meet up. It is fully like, it's a human tendency to want to, you know, commune with other people over things that we love and sort of talk about them and, you know, just get really into it.

Host/Interviewer (28:28)

And I like what you said. It's not a. It's not a negative thing. And it shouldn't be demonized on its face. I think, I mean, where I stand in true crime. I'm curious your thoughts on this. I think instead of just saying, well, you know, everyone go home, don't care about this, I mean, like that, that, first, that wouldn't work and second of all, like, I don't think that's reasonable. I think there can be good done by true crime and maybe some of the positive fandom culture can be a good thing. But we need to look at behaviors that are toxic and perhaps look at the behavior more so than somebody's opinion. Like what is being done versus anything else. I mean, what are your thoughts on that when it comes to trying to detoxify a fandom?

Monia Ali (29:09)

Yeah, I think the behavior is the most important part because that is where the negative impact comes from. Right. Both on yourself, because engaging in it sort of, you're going to regret it eventually, probably, and you're causing trouble for other people. I'm trying to think of how to.

Monia Ali (29:30)

Differentiate between true crime fans who really are just interested in learning about things versus the ones that are thinking that.

Host/Interviewer (29:42)

Some people call the people who are the conspiracy theorists true crimeanon because there's like similarities with QN that might be a little harsh in some cases. I think there is something to that. I'd say to me, when I look at true crime and you know, the weird thing about true crime and just the community in general is that at least online it's huge. I mean, it's huge, but it's also kind of compartmentalized. Sometimes it feels like I remember there was something a while ago where there was some podcast, there was some massive drama and I, I heard about it and I looked at it and I was like, I've never heard of this. Like, I, I didn't know this is a huge show with a mega fandom and a whole like, lore that I have no idea anything about. And I consider myself somewhat well versed in true crime. I mean, I'm in the space, so I think they're, there's like, there's different sides to it and different things people are getting out of it. There's the ones that are more creator personality driven, I would say, where it's like, let's, like we're friends and let's just sit down and chat about a case and, and I, I understand what people get out of that. And those are, those are enjoyable. Then there's ones that are more of like, we're going to do original reporting or research or legal Analysis. There's ones that are just kind of more like slickly produced things from, like, more of a corporate entity, which you're gonna, you know, you know, be very well, well done. And. And then there's people who are. Just have a very small audience, and they're online, usually on YouTube, and they're just kind of screaming at the camera about conspiracy theories, and, like, there's everything in between. So it. It's one of those things where, like, something that's affecting one area of it isn't necessarily a huge issue in another. Like, it. It just kind of. It all. It's so complicated. But when it comes to, you know, I don't even know where I was going with that, but I. I think when it comes to, I guess, the, you know, kind of trying to change behavior, it also helps to recognize that it is a very diverse. Just in terms of what people are doing.

Monia Ali (31:37)

Absolutely, Absolutely. And just the way that I think this is part of the problem that I've noticed is how.

Monia Ali (31:47)

Tribal it becomes. And by that I mean, like, truly based on the little community you. You are in. Like, a particular discord might have a very particular view, whereas the Reddit sub community might have a different view. And then the TikTok community feels a different way, and the formerly Twitter people believe something else, and just the way that they sort of oppose one another, but then simultaneously will associate something with another group and immediately disregard it because it's coming from the bad people or something like that, or how it becomes politicized. I wrote about Scientology, anti Scientology activism, and one of the things I noticed was there was a big coverage on the Danny Masterson rape case, and.

Monia Ali (32:32)

The people that were covering it were liberal media, mostly leftist. And then suddenly the conservatives discovered that that was going on, and they were like, well, if you guys think that he must be framed, like, no way that you guys are right about this. So suddenly you've created a political divide in something that doesn't need a political divide. Or if you look at Steven Avery and, you know, is he guilty? Is he innocent? Candace Owens decided that he's very guilty and has been going on a rampage about it. And if you have a problem with Candace Jones, then you might be like, well, obviously he's innocent, because.

Monia Ali (33:13)

Because she thinks. She thinks he's guilty. So obviously he's innocent, because in this case, it's also behavior. Right. We don't like how she behaves, which means that everything is, you know, null and void now. It becomes very. I feel like that's the environment that we're in right now, it becomes very, very difficult to parse through what's going on because everyone has such established beliefs and tribes that they're coming from, that anything that challenges it can be very fraught.

Host/Interviewer (33:41)

Yes. That is something we learned firsthand in a case that we covered extensively, which is the Delphi murders case.

Monia Ali (33:48)

We.

Host/Interviewer (33:49)

I think we're really naive walking into it because we. When we started, we were like, this sounds so embarrassing to even say out loud at this point because of, like, the benefit of hindsight. But we were just like, oh, we'll cover this case and put out facts, and people will engage with that. And like, a lot of people did. I mean, in fairness, a lot of people have. And that's. And that's wonderful. But within the wider context of everything we're talking about, like, all the tribalism and all the kind of, I think this guy did it versus I think that guy did it. You know, when you are putting something out there, just like with the people reporting on, like reviewing a music album or saying this creator or this star did something illegal, you know, there can be a big backlash, because if what you're putting out there doesn't comport with one tribe or specific sector of fandom's view of reality, they don't want it. They're not, like, they don't engage with it oftentimes. They just are just like, nope, take it back. Like, I didn't order this.

Monia Ali (34:50)

And it's like, okay, exactly, Exactly, I didn't order. This is the perfect way of describing it, because I think a lot of it has to do with parasocial relationships and attachments. And also, I didn't coin this term, but this term is imaginary social worlds, which is how you know people exist in your head. Kind of like you might have conversations with people or you picture people doing certain things. This can even be like, your friends. You're like, yeah, I think they went to the store. So I know that they went to the store. And this is also something that's been noticed in anthropologically, in human community since the dawn of time, because that's just how our brains work. So the more parasocial it is, the more you've filled in the blanks with what you believe. And then when something comes up that challenges it, suddenly it becomes very hard to take in and very difficult to sort of incorporate into your idea of that person. And we see this a lot with celebrities. I know you're a Taylor Swift fan.

Host/Interviewer (35:53)

And I do Enjoy some of Ms. Taylor Allison's books.

Monia Ali (35:56)

Yeah, no, definitely. And I feel like the report. I mean, this happens in multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple fandoms. Like every single fandom, probably. But I feel like it's been reported a lot on her where it's like the fans are upset about who she's d. It's like you'll read their tweet and it's, you know, the screed about, like, how can I reconcile the fact that I believe she was this kind of person? And now I'm being faced with this truth that is undeniable. Can I live with myself going to a cause? Like, how can I listen to this song? Because yada yada. And it's because they. They have this idea that they believe so strongly in, and they would never hold someone that they know in real life to those standards. That's also what's interesting. Like, you can be married to someone or your family and you love them and you disagree with some of the things they do or don't like some of the things that they like, and you're like, yeah, I still love them because we have a relationship. But if it's someone you only have a relationship with through mediated means and primarily through your own thoughts, which, again, I'm not saying that to judge it because that's just how it works. You're going to have a harder time incorporating things that challenge what you think.

Host/Interviewer (37:06)

Absolutely. Yeah, I. I definitely have seen that. And it's. It's always surprising to me because it's like, you know, I guess I. I guess I never. Beyond the Beatles fandom, I never really was that into a fandom. Like, I could be a fan of something, but I wouldn't really be, like, socializing around that. So I think I always have a different perspective. But it's just like, like, hope it's a good album. Like, that's kind of where I am. You know, Respect your business acumen. Like, but, like. But as far as, like, paying attention to who's dating whom, it's like that. That gets into a really kind of interesting personal space. And I think where it gets weird. And true crime for me is, you know, Taylor Swift's, you know, she, like, lover hater. She's, you know, very successful artist. Her songs, you know, do very well and, you know, kind of makes sense that she's a celebrity, therefore, because that's something, you know, we kind of designate, like, as something that, you know, is worth celebrating and kind of becoming famous over. But in true crime, people become famous or infamous or whatnot. You know, usually because of some connection to like a murder. And it's. And like, you know, when people are kind of scrutinizing victims, family members or attorneys or law enforcement officials or witnesses with that same kind of hyper focus, it's like it gets, it just kind of gets like people are not celebrities and there is still that kind of fake relationship. I mean, we actually interviewed a guy who, he was a sheriff's candidate, now he's a sheriff. And he told us like, he was getting like, you know, you know, he was part of this, you know, alleged conspiracy where he, you know, was being accused of all these things. And he said people were saying he was like a swinger and he owned an illegal massage parlor and a dog fighting ring. And he's like, when, when do I have time to do all of this? Like, I'm just a person. And it was like, it was like seeing a person react to the fact that they have kind of entered this toxic fandom and like, have been. People are having all these bizarre conversations with this guy in their head without, without knowing him, without really knowing anything about him, just based on assumptions or like incorrect information. That's just like, like we can't do that to people, in my opinion. I don't, I don't think that's good.

Monia Ali (39:25)

No. And that's the, that's the forensic aspect again, I think. And also this idea that.

Monia Ali (39:32)

Everything needs to be public, everything needs to be transparent. We have the right to know everything at all times, even though.

Monia Ali (39:39)

That'S not how the world works. Like, I'm not actually entitled to know every single thing about a case that I'm interested in. Because even if I wouldn't do anything with this information, like it might reach people that would do something with that information. If it's an unsolved case, it might reach, you know, the perpetrators and they can figure out how to, you know, do something to throw the scent off of them and all of these things. But there's this idea that everything needs to be out there at all times and the truth will out. And I think that's kind of naive because.

Monia Ali (40:12)

There'S all. There's, there's. I think there's as many people that mean well that are out there. You just need a handful that don't to really mess everything up.

Monia Ali (40:24)

And I think this is, I think also this idea that we, we're kind of all journalists in a way. I mean, not to. I don't think that they're actually journalists, but this is thing that like, I can Find this stuff. I can do some digging. If journalists do this, then why can't I? And I think I've been turned off by some podcasts where they were trying to talk to the police and were getting to me perfectly reasonable answers of like, well, we can't just like tell you all this stuff. And they're like, this is highly suspicious. How dare they not respond? Clearly there is a big cover up happening. And I mean it's like. Or that's part of the rules of how they engage with the media or the press.

Host/Interviewer (41:04)

You're absolutely right. And it is, I mean, I was very, I think like, I, for a long time I was like, oh yeah, maybe everyone can be citizen journalists and like trying to encourage people to like. But I think I, I, I'm, this is not a concept I thought of. I think I saw like some, a journalist post about this on, on Twitter or something a long time ago. But it was like, journalism is really hard and it's not super lucrative a lot of the time because you're spending a lot of time to put together something that, you know, it, it's not, it's not as easy as just getting out and doing the hot takes and yelling and.

Monia Ali (41:39)

No, the hot takes do a lot better, right? The, the quick to publish, like, oh my God, will do better and will give you attention usually. And it's. The fastest person wins. Right? There's all of that.

Host/Interviewer (41:54)

It's also easy to just make stuff up. I mean, tactics can be based in reality. But I can also just get out there and say, I know for a fact everyone in this case is corrupt and they're hiding and the real killer is this guy. And there's not really much, you know, and, and that's, and so that's why people do that instead of citizen journalism. They just, they adopt the mantle of citizen journalists without doing any. They're just angry citizens. I mean, they're not.

Monia Ali (42:22)

That just reminds me of two things. I'm not sure if you're, if you heard about this, that there was these true crime youtubers that have been posting AI stuff where the crimes aren't even real. Like, it'll be fully like this grandma married her teenage lover and then murdered him. And then people will be like, what the.

Monia Ali (42:43)

And contact police. And police is like, this isn't the case. This isn't the case. Like, we haven't. This isn't real. And there'll be like super upset that nothing has happened. Like, that was a crazy discovery for me that it was just like okay, so everything is now just entertainment and just narrative and who even knows?

Host/Interviewer (43:01)

I listened to a podcast once that kind of did something a little bit similar. I'm not going to name it. I don't want to get in trouble, but I remember, like, the way it was advertised. I thought it was true crime. And then I'm hearing it, I'm like, how do they get the killer to say that on camera? And then I was like, oh, oh, it's not real. And I felt really stupid. But it was like, but it's, it's unfortunate. It's like, I think with the entertainment aspect in the. And the fandom aspect wanting, you're wanting things that you're listening to or engaging with to be interesting or even, dare I say, entertaining. I don't think that's a huge problem. I think, yeah, like, if you're going to write an article, writing, you know, for a newspaper, writing it in a really jargon heavy and technical way that is hard to read is not conducive. I think writing it in a way that people can actually understand is good. But when the entertainment value becomes more important than anything else in any other considerations, that's when we're kind of getting into this part where I'm uncomfortable with the entertainment aspect of it, I guess.

Monia Ali (44:06)

I think it doesn't help that. And I think this is also partially why it's become so fandom heavy. True crime is because of the way that the entertainment industry has absorbed true crime essentially, and created media properties based on it. And I do think media literacy is a huge challenge in how people engage with a lot of this stuff. I've seen journalists that I actually normally quite respect and who will challenge things and say, like, who will say, like, oh, well, Netflix wouldn't put up something based on a true story that's not real. Like, obviously, it's all real. Obviously. And it's like, do you know how many lawsuits have tried to be like, what? Where are you? Where? What? How. What do you mean? Obviously, it's all, every single piece of it is true. It's like, that's not how you make. No, that's not how you make a show.

Host/Interviewer (44:59)

Also, here's the thing here. I mean, here's what bothers me about that too. You can have everything technically be true and still be completely misleading. Like, and we, we talked to a 48 hour former 48 Hours producer, and she talked about how they film so much they could do the, like an episode about the same crime and use none of the same footage. And have, like, two episodes that are totally different and probably give you a totally different sense of what happened, but they're still all technically true. It's so many things are editorial decisions. Do we make this guy look good? Or does this guy become the villain? Or does this. Is this the hero? And. And it's like, it can be true, but still you need to engage with it critically to really ensure that you're not just being taken in by a narrative.

Monia Ali (45:46)

That's such a good point, because that, I think, also highlights the problem with the true crime, true crime fandom, where you're saying there's different corners that believe different things or who behave different ways. If they all have a different part of that 48 hours, like maybe one section has the one where this guy's the hero and the other one has it when that. That guy's the villain and they're all arguing with each other and they all have different.

Monia Ali (46:12)

Pieces of information and nothing is, you know, making a full picture because you. You won't talk to people, right? You're not going to put it together. And everything becomes very focused on.

Monia Ali (46:28)

The case that you're interested in. And this is what happens with fans as well when they're. Because forensic fandom is 100% something that happens within, like, celebrity fandom or TV show fandoms and all of that stuff where everything is about that. So this person was behaving sketchily, maybe because they were having an affair. It doesn't have to mean that they were covering up their brother's crime. Like, not everything has to do with what you're focused on. Like, they liked this post on Instagram. Obviously, that's shade to the investigators. Or it's like. Or it's shade to their ex friend or. Or it's not even shade at all. It creates these whole narratives that are. Because we can't make sense of just, like, everything, we have to make patterns out of it, right? So. And if we have a focus, then everything revolves around that focus. And then we see all the behavior around that through that lens. And I feel like.

Monia Ali (47:25)

I could be wrong, but I feel like this is partially what we've seen in, like, the Karen Reed case, for example, the way that people have been analyzed through a very specific lens because everything means something very specific to them, right?

Host/Interviewer (47:37)

Yeah, 100%. And it's like. And frankly, it's a more interesting story, grand conspiracy, like, led by a dog or something, versus, you know, I'm, I'm being facetious, obviously, but, like a grand conspiracy Involving all of these people to, to screw over this one woman versus a drunken accident slash vehicular homicide. You know, like, like people often in true crime and this bothers me, we did a whole episode on this. They gravitate towards the interesting and sometimes the evidence points towards the interesting. Anytime you see someone, you know it looks like a suicide. Oh wait, but the, the autopsy proves it was a murder. Sometimes it is more interesting, quote unquote interesting meaning like intrigue or there's a twist or there's an unexpected result but, but oftentimes it's just not and you have to go where the evidence points. And I, I mean with, with Reid and with Delphi and with a lot of these cases that you see, I think, you know, the evidence doesn't necessarily point to the most interesting conclusion about like a cult or a grand cover up conspiracy. And I think like, I, I, I think it's really unfortunate that we are seeing it become more entertainment because I think that dulls people's critical thinking skills. And I can attest to this because I was totally in that camp. You know, I, when I first started listening to murder podcasts, basically I'd be like, you know, without really think, you know, I was a history major. So in my history major capacity in college, I would be very critical of like, okay, well, Captain John Smith says that Jamestown was messed up because of this, but he had an agenda and like, you know, kind of looking at things through that lens. What does the archeology say? What do the other people writing about it say? What is, you know, like, what do current day experiments say about why the colony was doing so badly? But I wouldn't apply that same level of thinking to podcasts and I would often just find myself either kind of agreeing with premises that weren't very well established or not questioning why, oh, you know, this person does, you know, a wrongful conviction focused podcast. Isn't it odd that every case they end up talking about turns out to be a wrongful conviction in their view? And it's like, you know, or this is done by someone who has a more pro police bias and they're just justifying everything that happens with the police. So it's like you gotta kind of, I don't know, you gotta, it's, it's annoying because you kind of want to turn off your brain sometimes. But like when it comes to true crime, it's like we can't afford to.

Monia Ali (50:17)

And it's better for the creators because they are creators in this case. Right? They're not necessarily journalists or reporters. They are creating entertainment and it's better for them to have entertainment value and, you know, to drag out a series. I mean, I don't necessarily want to call out any specific people because I actually don't even remember the names of the podcasts and everything. But, like, if we look at the Maura Murray case, I remember listening to like a 20 episode podcast and it's like, do we need 20 episodes?

Monia Ali (50:48)

Yeah, I feel like we can figure out what probably happened. And then there's other cases where you know more and you're like, oh, this podcast is making it seem like this is this big mystery that. But there isn't actually a mystery. Like Elisa Lam is one of those examples, right. Where that has been dragged out. And you will still see today crime to a crime podcast that will like cover it and be like, what's. What happened here? I think there was a. And this also, I think hurts the survivors, the, the people that are left behind because they get strung along. And I think there was one podcast that was covering a specific case and was working closely with the mother. And over time, the podcast creator realized like, oh, actually I don't think that this was a cover up anymore. So they like basically stopped doing it, which I actually respect that they called that off. But then that, you know, the family became incredibly upset because it's like you turned on us because it's not a question of like, we're seeing the evidence, it's. It's a question of, you know, belief. Right. There's quite a few of those. And I think, especially if there's unexplained deaths or, I mean, when I say unexplained, I just mean like things that are maybe, you know, there's not a camera filming everything that happened. So you can challenge a lot of it. It's very hard to, you know, just accept that it's over. Right. And if you keep ruminating on it, you can still maintain that connection. Essentially.

Host/Interviewer (52:13)

You see that a lot in, in death cases where there's some lingering questions or whatnot. And I, you know, one thing, if people come to us with those cases and people have, we always try to be very candid of like, we may not end up agreeing with you that there's any, anything suspicious here. And in fact, we probably won't, you know, because if you're hearing from the coroner and the pathologist, you know, then that's kind of, you know, that's. It's not that people can't make mistakes. And if you can, you know, if there's second opinions, whatnot, we'll look at that. But oftentimes, I think a lot of those cases are more interesting to me in the, in the capacity of like, you know, is there a. Is there a gentler way for law enforcement to handle survivors and maybe like, be more candid with them or share more results sooner before the doubt and before the like kind of search for answers begins? Because I feel like that just re. Traumatizes a lot of people. But yeah, what you said, using family members of victims or people who have died, using real life investigators, real life defense attorneys, prosecutors, what have you, witnesses as like props. It's not like we're talking about like Jack versus Sawyer from Lost. You know, like, we're not. Like those are not real people, but like, at the center of these stories, there are real people. They're not just characters and they have real feelings and they can see what we write about them online. And even if you think somebody is a murderer, you know, you can kind of. You can still exhibit some restraint in maybe not make a really mean post or maybe keep that thought to yourself or maybe wait till we have more information before you start going on that. Like, I'm, I'm not the kind of person where I'm like, yeah, no one's saying anything mean about Ted Bundy. Like, no, it's. But it's like there's a, There's a time and a place for some of this stuff. And I think people kind of front load some of it when they're having these discussions or just like any thought that pops into people's heads, they're putting out there, and it's like, that's not. Does not. I, I don't think there's a lot of value in that. I'm curious. One thing, you know, when you see true crime kind of developed into this fandom, developed into this more like entertainment space, what are some of the things that stand out to you about how that manifests itself or things we can kind of be aware of?

Monia Ali (54:34)

I think one of the most notable things to me is the idolatry that happens to like attorneys or yes. Witnesses sometimes, or suspects or relations. And I think sometimes that is leaned into because you could make a career out of this. Like, you can, you could use this as a launch pad or even podcast hosts. Right. Like, there's a few that I can think of where I'm like, okay, you really just took this to become a public figure and it worked, I guess. Congratulations, that's where it really looks bad to me. And I think when trials become essentially carnivals, where, you know, someone brings alpacas and there's the food trucks start to roll up and the merch stands, and is this a tailgating event or is it a trial? Like. And I think if you're in the middle of it, it might be like, oh, isn't it, you know, fun that we're all in this together? But that just shows that how profitable that type of engagement has become. Right. And how these entire industries can sort of pop up around it and be. And want it to continue, because that's. Why wouldn't they want to be able to sell tacos at the courthouse. Right.

Host/Interviewer (55:51)

I think that's really well said. And I mean, obviously, all of the Anya Cain stands are totally valid and they should keep doing.

Monia Ali (55:57)

I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.

Host/Interviewer (55:59)

Like, I, As. As a creator, we're in kind of a weird space because we want people to be in our audience and engage with the show. I want them to engage with it critically, though, because we're not going to get everything right at all. Like, we're very fallible people and we have blind spots. Like, there's no, like, there's no way around that. And so, like, I feel like when people are trying to cultivate fans versus an audience, like, an audience can be listening critically and saying, okay, well, I see what you mean, but you got that wrong. Or that's not really what it's like in my town that you're describing. Or, you know, they can kind of push back and kind of help guide you to be a better journalist or be a better reporter of the facts, whereas fans are just, you know, no, they did everything right. Don't. How dare you say anything to them? I, you know, I. That prevents a creator from, in my opinion, growing and getting better because everything they do is just perfect.

Monia Ali (56:52)

I think it's also a red flag. Just. Just from what you were saying, when creators start to do, like, appeals to motion and guilt tripping and, like, paying attention to what the call to action is, I think can be very good. Like, is the call to action, like, go after this guy who spoke up against me, or is it, you know, maybe we should all do FOIA requests so that we can learn more about what's happening. Or if you want to show this suspect that we believe is innocent, that he interferes, then you can write him a letter rather than go and harass people online. Right. Like, what is the call to action? And when I'm saying, like, appeals to motion. It's not just like, oh, or get angry or get upset, but also this thing of like. Like that I've seen a lot of Patreon people do sometimes where they're like, oh, please keep supporting me because I am having such a tough week, or things like that where it's like, so then you're not really selling a product necessarily. You are selling, like, this investment that someone has in you. And it's not saying that, oh, they should go hungry, but it's more of like, well, what exactly are you getting money for? What are people attached to?

Host/Interviewer (58:02)

I feel like creators really need to be ethical and not manipulative when we're talking about stuff like that. We have a Patreon and it's like, if you want to join, you get ad free episodes, early episodes, and then we'll rant at you twice a month. And if that sounds great, yay, you can do it. And if people like Apollo, like, oh, I can't afford it anymore, that's okay. Like, we're not like. Like, do, like, support you first. And if it's something that adds some fun to your life, then great, then you can get it it. And if not, or it's not a good time, then that's good too. Like, you, like, whenever I see people being like, almost, yeah, like that manipulative, like, of like, oh, I need, you know, this or that, and it's like, I don't know, just that's we're getting into grifter territory there. Like, have it be something that people can come to, and if it's not enough to sustain you doing it full time, then, you know, get. Have it on the side and work at that. But, like, you can't, like, just relying on your fandom to, like, support you in all matters at all time. It just. It isn't fair. And it also. I think I forget Kevin always says this. There was, like, someone in comic books. I don't know, I don't want to misquote it, but it was like, basically, like, you get the fandom you deserve, and if you're constantly, like, highlighting behavior that's kind of like, not great, that people will know that that's how you get attention. You're constantly kind of engaging in a more, like, normal way, then that's going to be a better outcome for everyone in the situation.

Monia Ali (59:32)

I think that's a very salient quote. Like, I think sometimes it doesn't really work out that way, but there's definitely a degree of Encouragement of bad behavior that I find beyond shocking. And this is part of what I discovered when I started to dig into things where there's fans that actually engage in legitimately illegal behavior that are still rewarded because maybe they have status in the fan community so they'll get insider information and access to things. So.

Monia Ali (60:12)

I have a bit of a pet peeve with reporting that demonizes fans without recognizing the two way street that is going on a lot of times, especially if we're talking about stalker fans, for example, which I mean actually fans who stock not stans. Because I discovered when I was digging that it's like, oh, there actually does seem to be information that goes out to the same people over and over again because you start recognizing you're like, oh, this person actually met Taylor 20 times this year. That's funny. Like, how did that happen? Did they just stumble on them or have they been given information? Because when the celebrity is seen with fans, that is counted as fan service that then leaks online and then all the fans can be like, wow, look at that. I could meet them one day. But it's actually very controlled as to who even gets access to that information. Or they end up in a car chase and they still get rewarded with like a fan pit and they're in the background of paparazzi photos because they're just always there, but they're not being, you know, chased away or like turned away at concerts. Like they're still, they might be invited backstage even. So how. Why would they stop doing that if they're only getting rewards from it?

Host/Interviewer (61:23)

Yeah, no, and it's like. And the reason, and this is why I so appreciate the work you've done exposing a lot of this and writing about it is that the reason is monetarily it benefits, it benefits you to have very loyal, very rabid because they're going to buy a lot of stuff, merch and whatnot. So if it's good for business, you know, the, the saying goes and you know, like then, I mean people are going to encourage it. But you know, especially, I mean throughout this in entertainment, like there, there it does seem to then just permeate into a more toxic and possibly harmful community when that is encouraged.

Monia Ali (62:00)

Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's once again there's absolutely no regard for what happens when these fans now face a conflict of like, wait, I. This person isn't who I believed and I wasted all of this money on them and I wasted years on them and all of my investment was to a mirage. Like what do I do now. And I think that is going to spread, like, the. The way that certain fans have organized protests is going to spread. And I could easily see that taking over in the true crime spaces as well. What happens in Korea a lot of times is that disgruntled fans will rent trucks and there'll be messaging on them and they'll, like, circle around the agency and. Or they'll send funeral wreaths and, like. And this is not like a once in a while thing. Like, there was one group who. There were three truck protests in one month, essentially. So it's like, it's not like a unusual thing. So I could see that happening, like, at the prison. Like, send a truck to the prison that says free. Free Luigi. Like, I don't. I don't see why that wouldn't happen. Like, 100% that would happen.

Host/Interviewer (63:09)

So much of the conversation about him has evolved from guilt or innocence or even the macro of health insurance and has gone to just basically making him a sex symbol. And it's like.

Monia Ali (63:22)

And a fan object. Like, he is actually a great example of how neutered the conversation has become. And I've seen complaints about this on Tumblr where they're like, you guys now just made him like a wooby. And you're like, my little meow, meow.

Monia Ali (63:40)

You know, and you're like, you're not engaging with the situation, you're not engaging with the context. You're not engaging with anything around it. You're just like, you just have this little, you know, your idol is here and you can worship him. And there is actually a lot of fan fiction about him. I think he's the one I've seen the most for currently on. On certain fan fiction sites.

Host/Interviewer (64:00)

It's. It makes me. And, like, just a grappling of, like. I mean, I don't know. I don't think. I mean, I. I don't think it's a secret. I'm not. I'm not for vigilante justice. I don't think that's really ever good or justified or. I just think that that's not something especially true crime creators should be like, yeah, but like, at the end of the day, like, for Luigi Mangioni, like, he's this young man and he's facing.

Host/Interviewer (64:27)

Very, you know, like, life in prison, possibly the death penalty. Like, it's.

Monia Ali (64:31)

It's.

Host/Interviewer (64:31)

It's very serious. It's like. And I'm not trying to be like, the like, unfun person who's just like, no, don't have Any fun or don't do memes. But, like, I kind of. Like, I don't. When I see that kind of thing, I'm just like, yikes. You know, I mean, like, this is a tragedy all around. And also, it kind of does seem to cheapen a lot of the discussion that happened in the beginning where there was actually a lot of discussion about the health insurance angle and whether people agree with that or not or, you know, like, debate or people saying this or that.

Monia Ali (65:02)

It's.

Host/Interviewer (65:02)

It's more of, like, that seems like a more grounded conversation to be had around this versus, like, ooh, he's wearing these shoes. Like, look at his sweater. And it's like, I'm not trying to. Like, there are other things that we can kind of have the, you know, sort of, like, idle discussion about, but this just doesn't seem like the appropriate venue at all. I don't. Maybe I'm just being.

Monia Ali (65:22)

I don't know. No, I think you're right. And I think that this is also partly a problem with the devolution of the mainstream media and reporting outlets and stuff like that. I blame BuzzFeed a lot because BuzzFeed, the thing is, like, I don't necessarily think there's anything wrong with having, like, those would be conversations, but they also belong in a specific place and.

Monia Ali (65:50)

Not elsewhere. Like, this should not be spreading elsewhere. Right. Like, I think a lot of the problems we see have to do with the fact that there's, like, no borders. Everything is frictionless. What happens on Stan Twitter can easily just, like, be retweeted into, I don't know, some politician's feed who is now retweeting that. And then now this is part of the discussion, and Politico is going to report on why this person, like, likes this album more than that one. And, you know, there's no friction whatsoever. And movies that are for a specific audience suddenly are being attacked from people that. It's like, it's not for you. It's not for you, and there's nothing wrong with it, but you're amplifying it in a degree where it's like, yeah, I mean, it's not for you. It doesn't have. Not everything has to be for you. And I mentioned BuzzFeed specifically because, to me, Tumblr is one of those places where, like, what happens on Tumblr should stay on Tumblr. But BuzzFeed, you know, made it a habit of doing, like, entire articles that were just Tumblr screenshots. And let's Bring this out into the mainstream, and that gets hits, which means, let's do more of it. And then that sort of starts to spread. And other people adopt the same thing because they need to get hits. Right. There was something I was reading where there was these entertainment journalists talking about Game of Thrones and how that changed the media landscape for them, because suddenly every single outlet was like, we have to have a morning after discussion. We need to have a podcast. We need to have the fans that are reporting. So suddenly, these very serious outlets had this entire sub, like, just Game of Thrones, which then becomes. I don't. I don't even know what the next big series was. Succession. Succession, I feel like, is another big one that had, like, you know, massive things. Or you'll see something covered extensively in the media, and then you look at the numbers and you're like, wait, this wasn't even the number one show. Like, wait, what? Like, why are we talking about this? It's like, oh, because it'll. It feeds. Like that engagement, right? Clicks, Right? Yeah.

Host/Interviewer (67:49)

I mean, I'll tell you, I was part of that. I remember we were like, talking about.

Monia Ali (67:52)

Like, okay, what do we do with Game of Thrones? And I remember.

Host/Interviewer (67:54)

I don't even remember if I just wanted to do it or they. I think I. I think it was actually my fault, but I remember you're to blame. I'm to blame for this to a certain extent, because I was like, this is. I love this show. This is fun. And this is. I ended up not enjoying it by the end, but for a time of.

Monia Ali (68:11)

This is rad often happens.

Host/Interviewer (68:13)

Yeah. Like, yeah, there were some quality control issues, I think, but I There. I did enjoy it at the time. And I was like, hey, I was. For the careers beat at Insider, which was, like, all about, like, leadership and careers and, like, advice and, like, I wanted to launch into something more hard news, and I eventually did, but at the time, I was like, let's just have fun with this. And I was like, what if I did, like, a leadership ranking of everyone in Game of Thrones? And they're like, yes. And it did numbers. It did. I mean, it was like. Like, I mean, it, like, it worked. I was. I got a huge amount of clicks that. And I think that put me over the top for, like, whatever my goal was. And I was like, well, this worked. But. But looking back, I was like, what the hell was that?

Monia Ali (68:52)

Of course. Yeah, it worked. And that. That leads into what you were saying of the fandomification of everything. Like, all of These outlets to survive feel the need that they need to cater to this, which I don't think it devalues the rest of their content, but it might like hollow it out perhaps. Like there's not enough, you know, attention or given to that. And, and it also just like pushes that content into everything else. Right.

Host/Interviewer (69:19)

And it's, it's like, it's like one off. Okay. But as you said, like if that becomes like, okay, that's the only thing we can do to really get what, you know, like it becomes like an easy dopamine hit almost and you almost the sugar rush of something like that versus an article that's going to be really deeply reported and like a slow burn to be more influential. It's very hard for traditional outlets to navigate especially when they're facing the competition of social media. But it's honestly I, I, I'm like, I miss the days where every, you know, like there were certain things that were just kind of serious and had people taking things seriously versus things that were just like whatever, you know, and like I, I, it's definitely, it's definitely trouble. And in true crime you get a lot of that where it like, like just kind of ridiculous stuff is happening and you're kind of like, like I don't know, kind of crowds out other things. And when you have everyone investing so much into a handful of cases, especially when the investment is basically like making up conspiracy theories and like lying, it drowns out cases where they don't necessarily have that profile. But maybe some of that energy could be used into putting like missing and murdered indigenous women to the forefront. Like let's, like let's talk about some of those cases. Not conspiracy thought, theorize about them, but just like talk about them. Like we could be using the energy, we're using, wasting I would say in some of these, like Karen reads and whatnot and we could actually be uplifting cases involving people of color, cold cases that were never solved. Like there's, there's public interest and I, I think there's public interest in doing some of that and I just don't see, I see a lot of antisocial behavior in true crime and I'd love to kind of have that shift to more pro social behavior and because honestly like one reason why we end up covering some of these cases too is like we're trying to debunk nonsense that's been put into them but like that kind of keeps us tied up in some of them. Like I'd like, I mean we're finally getting to the point where we can do some non, you know, some cases that we've been wanting to do for a while, but we've been just so like trying to be like, stop lying. That it's like, it's like it just, it's hard and. But when it's when you see it as a fandom and people not really taking it seriously and people more of like doing it because, like, I think people find meaning in it and I think they like friends. And I think like, it's a positive experience on some level.

Host/Interviewer (71:50)

I see people in, in some of the conspiratorial side of true crime. You see it like somebody comes forward. It's a classic example. I'm wondering if this is something that you see in other fandoms or maybe more toxic fandoms. But someone will come forward and say, I have questions about X Kate. And then suddenly their comments section underneath their post is just like this love bombing of like, you are the smartest person to ever exist. Thank you for blessing us with these insights. And they're like, wow. And you just see them start sliding into it and you want to like, just come and be like, run, run away. Like, this is not going to end well. And it's just like this like love bombing that gets you sucked in. And then suddenly if they step one foot out of line and don't go with the craziest conspiracy theory, they are going to be cast out of their friend group.

Monia Ali (72:39)

Yes, No, A hundred, a hundred percent. And I've seen this referred to.

Monia Ali (72:46)

I've seen this referred to specifically for like Twitter or TikTok or I guess Instagram. Anywhere where you can comment on someone's thing. First of all, the uninitiated, I almost said uninitiated fans, but like uninitiated people that are not fans are called locals. They're locals, right? Well, first of all, you need to have a specific language to talk about everything, right? Like that. That strengthens the in group dynamic that you know how to refer to outsiders. So they're locals.

Monia Ali (73:14)

And what they refer to it as is like, oh, a local just said they really like the song. And the hardcore super fans are scanning and tracking everything. So they see, oh, this random person wrote about that. So then they go and babysit them in the comments. Just sort of lead them through into.

Monia Ali (73:34)

You know, into the vortex. Like, oh, if you like that, you should also. Have you seen this video? Isn't he cute? Isn't this great? And just the way that it also isn't about the music. A lot of times it is about like, oh, isn't this video cute? Oh, I read that he hugged all of his fans. Now I'm a fan. It's like, okay, but he's also a musician. Do you like the music? It's like, well, I haven't listened to it, but I really like him. And it's like, okay, so you're not. Like, none of this is related to what the thing is. But yeah, I've seen it referred to as babysitting the locals and how they were trying to get more organized. And, like, if you see someone is already babysitting them, like, don't jump in because that they'll be overwhelmed. So just go find someone else to sort of, you know, lead them through. And it is. In these particular cases, it might not necessarily be love bombing, but love bombing is 100% a thing. And you see it a lot of times when people are like, wow, this fandom is. Is so nice and so welcoming. And it's like, yeah, wait until you say something that people disagree with or not even people, but, like, one specific subset of the fandom disagree with, disagrees with and gets very loud. Because that's also interesting and I think is reflected in true crime that the loudest are not necessarily the majority. Like, their opinion is not necessarily the majority. Which is why we see things like catering to social media.

Monia Ali (74:58)

Doesn'T lead to, you know, a win in a case necessarily. Even though there's like, well, we're trending every day. Like, our hashtags are at the top of the list, and we have so many videos and all of this stuff. And it's like, yeah, but it's not. This is just fluff. Essentially.

Host/Interviewer (75:17)

Most people think this is crazy. If they see this and you, like, hit a bunch of people with, like, standing over accused or convicted murderers, most people find that really distasteful. It's not to say that they're not open to an innocence narrative. It's just to say that, like, there's a difference between saying, hey, I'm not really sure if there's enough evidence here, but let's see what happens at trial. And then saying, well, I didn't think the state proved its case, so I disagree with it. There's a big difference in that. And, like, making a collage of, like, you know, calling people the defense daddies and, like, salivating them and just getting really, really weird. And. And, like, I think most. I mean, I hate to sound Nixonian, but yeah, the silent is like, what is that, like, get some help. Like, get this away from me. I mean, when we've described this to just people who are not into this at all, they're just.

Monia Ali (76:08)

They're.

Host/Interviewer (76:08)

They're baffled. And it's like, it's. It's not. It's actually not an effective strategy unless you're dealing with other people who are also very online, you know, and not everybody is. I mean, a lot of people are. Some people are moderately online, and then other people are just not really at all or just, you know, they're on Facebook, they're not on Twitter, they're on Instagram only or whatnot. But, yeah, that's. That's fascinating. The babysitting really creeps me out. That's just. I mean, like, I'm sorry. Like, I. I get the intent and I get the sort of evangelization efforts, and I. I understand that to a certain extent. That's understandable. You love this works and. Or this artist, and you want other people to enjoy it, and you want to get them in a community. There's something very nice about that. But the process by which that works is kind of like. A little calculated.

Monia Ali (76:59)

Yeah, a little. Yeah. Very, very calculated. And I'm actually.

Monia Ali (77:06)

I'm currently doing a deep dive into Firefly fandom.

Host/Interviewer (77:10)

Oh, my God.

Monia Ali (77:11)

Yeah. And this is a very early fandom that really weaponized the guerrilla marketing approach. And a lot of what they talk about, because there's a podcast from 2006. Like, there's literally a podcast from 2006 that's, like, archived. So I listen to it, and they have, like, Project SQL and, you know, they have all of these steps how we're going to do to make sure that Universal knows that there is a demand. Like, if you have steps, they give you out assignments and.

Monia Ali (77:41)

Yes. And that is just like, oh, this is just standard practice these days. Right. This is just how fans operate these days. Or super fans operate these days. Yeah.

Host/Interviewer (77:52)

That was in response to it getting canceled. Right. So it was kind of like a. This is it. Right.

Monia Ali (77:57)

Like, so this was. So they were definitely very loud when it was canceled, but when the movie came out, they really wanted a trilogy, because everyone signed on for a trilogy, which is a pretty standard approach. Right. The movie did not deliver the returns that the company wanted, so they didn't do it. And I also don't think Joss Whedon wanted to do more. He was already on the Marvel train. He was going to go do Avengers. Right. So I don't think he was going to do more Anyway, and this is actually a very interesting case where the fans did a lot of the promotion for the movie and the studio, I think, believed that this was enough. Like they thought that the fans would convince people to go see it. And it's like, that's not how it works. Like you, you actually do need to put some money in your promotion. Like, you can't just rely on these foot soldiers. And they ended up trying to sue fans who were promoting the movie for using their marketing material afterwards. And it turned into like a big disaster.

Host/Interviewer (78:58)

Yikes. I mean, you're kind of manip. Like getting them to do your work for them and then when it doesn't work out, you're like, yeah, screw him.

Monia Ali (79:04)

That's not.

Host/Interviewer (79:05)

I mean that. And that. And that is. That actually segues into something though that I wanted to ask you about. Like.

Host/Interviewer (79:12)

How. How can people recognize when they're. I mean, I guess it's a two part question and I think I know the answer to the first. But can all of this maybe on the standom side, the stanning, can that be unhealthy? And how can people engage with fandoms in or outside of true crime in a way that's help helpful or healthy to them and not just like having them get taken advantage of or causing a lot of mental stress for no reason?

Monia Ali (79:43)

Yeah, I think standom is inherently unhealthy and it's one of those difficult things where I will get a lot of people that push back when I talk about what happens. And they're like, well, they chose to do this. Like they're very happy to be buying 500 copies of this album. And I'm just like, are you listening to yourself? And also like, yes, of course. It's very euphoric. You feel high that you've accomplished something or which I think is actually even worse in the true crime spaces because you actually have people's lives on the line and justice is actually on the line. Right. So you might feel even more motivated that like, yes, we can change things and we can get justice and it's only once you fall out of it that you're like, what was I doing? Like, that was crazy. And when bad things happen and you're. You feel incredibly stressed out and anxious and you can't sleep and you're just like, wait, maybe this is the flip side of that constant euphoria. Right. And one of the things that is the most important, I think is to be honest with yourself about how you are feeling about things, how you are engaging with things and try to have.

Monia Ali (80:49)

A semblance of. I think it's called affective forecasting, where.

Monia Ali (80:57)

If you can ask yourself if. If, like a week from now or a year from now, like, I discovered that I was wrong about this and not like, oh, if this piece of evidence came out, because you could easily, like, you could. You could easily be like, well, I wouldn't believe it, or whatever. But no, if you actually came to believe that you were wrong.

Monia Ali (81:14)

How would you react? And if your first thought about being wrong is like, my stomach hurts, like, I feel stressed out at thinking that maybe I'm wrong, then you might already have, like, a certain attachment to a specific idea that is not necessarily good for you and you might still be right. Like, it's not a question of, like, oh, as soon as you feel this, then everything you're doing is wrong. Like, you might still be correct in your thinking, but you might be relating to it, attached to it in a way that is not for your best, like, in your best interest, essentially. And I think it's very hard to be honest with yourself about that stuff. So. So I think that's what I'm saying, like, be honest with yourself. And like, don't. You don't necessarily have to go out there and be like, I'm thinking about this and like, how. Let me analyze how I feel. But, like, you have to be able to think about how you relate to things and how you feel. Because as well, in the moment, it's so easy to get carried away and, you know, road rage or whatever, right? You're just like, you're all caught up in it. And afterwards you're like, oh, well, I'm fine. Like, you have to sort of recognize how you're reacting and see that in context. Because it's also very easy to recognize when other people are doing it, but it's very hard to recognize when you are engaging in it.

Host/Interviewer (82:31)

That makes a lot of sense. And one thing I wanted to ask you about is, like, what you've described comparing the stands to the fans, the fandoms don't really sound like necessarily inherently a problem. You have a community around something you enjoy, you know, and I think that's really important to stress. And also note the macro things that are guiding people into fandoms. What you said about the way the Internet is structured, it's not just like people are forming a mob or being crazy, you know, it's like, there are. There are. It's like sort of like when. When, like, I remember reading a book and it was talking about, like, how people deal with emergency situations. Sometimes, like victims in a disaster are denigrated, where it's like, oh, they all stampeded, or no one, you know, got off the boat in time. And it's like, like. But the way things were structured, it actually made it more likely for that to happen. And you, like, you're kind of missing the big point about like, what the company did that was wrong or like the way this was structured, that was wrong and that would actually prevent the next tragedy. Instead of just being like, they all panicked. Haha. You know, like, people who are in fandoms and who are maybe stands kind of are kind of caught up in some macro stuff. And it's important to acknowledge that. But part of me can't help but feel really uncomfortable with the idea of true crime as a fandom or true crime fandoms within the larger thing. How do you feel about it? Like, do you think we can have some positive fandoms and that's okay, or do you think we should be trying to kind of cleanse the temple and eradicate fandoms from space at all? Like, is that possible? I mean, I don't know.

Monia Ali (84:03)

I don't know if it's possible because a lot of it also has to do with what exactly is your fan object? Like, is your fan object the suspect or is your fan object the podcast host? Is your fan object, you know, Nancy Grace, or is your fan object, you know, this, this lawyer? Where is your actual loyalty lying? Right. I do find it very difficult to picture a normal, healthy fandom when we're talking about, like, criminal stuff. I think you can have an interest in it. You can be maybe what I called affirmational fandom would work for True Crime, where it's a question of just like keeping track of, you know, information and timelines and whatever, which is a type of fandom. Right. So that could be, that could be fine. And I actually, as uncomfortable as it makes me to know that there are, you know, fan fiction and fan art of things, I still also feel like sometimes people go to that because it helps them mentally with things and they might grow out of it and all of that. Right. So I try not to be too judgmental of it, but I do believe it should be kept at a specific corner and not. Not spread elsewhere. So I think that's. That's where, where it becomes hard is like, what exactly are you a fan of and is it. I also think that some of the more quote unquote problematic casual Fans are not great either because they are fans of sensationalism and, you know, like, isn't that crazy? And the people that really want to watch Dahmer or watch the Menendez brothers story, because they're like, I want to see how fucked up it gets. Like, like, you know, you're like, okay, but they're not interested in the case necessarily. They're not interested in anything else. But they're like, yeah, let's see what Ryan Murphy has. For me this time. It's all about how you engage with it, I think. And it's. Yeah, it's about how you engage people.

Host/Interviewer (85:55)

No, that. That makes a lot of sense. I think people like hard and fast rules, or at least I do, because then it's like, here's what I can do. But as with many things in true crime, it's complicated. Like, the classic example I use is like, you know, I think it's really important to consider the feelings of family members of victims. Reach out, get their. Get their takes. If they want to speak, let them speak. There's going to be some projects that are perfectly ethical that are not going to be something that family members and victims approve of because they might pursue a wrongful conviction angle. And those should be allowed. I mean, those should be allowed. It's not like, oh, we should ban those just because this is general rule that we should follow of trying to include and alert and inform family members of victims if we're doing a project. But generally it's like, yeah, hard and fast rules tend to not work. It's really, you know, and like, yeah, I mean, like, you hear a lot of people where they love the dulcet tones of Keith Morrison. Right. Like, and, like, I don't see a problem with that. I mean, he does a good job and, you know, things like that. But, you know, I might add, like, I think people should. You can. You can be a fan, but never turn off your critical brain. And if you like someone, that doesn't mean you can't help them grow and hold them accountable. Or that doesn't have to mean yelling at someone. It could just mean like, hey, you kind of got this wrong, and here, here's some information. And, you know, and that. I think that tends to be a healthier relationship because it doesn't put creators or anyone else on a pedestal.

Monia Ali (87:25)

It.

Host/Interviewer (87:26)

It makes them human and somebody who, you know, you can be helped to do better in the future, I guess.

Monia Ali (87:32)

Yeah. And I do think you can have a normal, healthy relationship like that. Like, there's there's plenty of stuff that I'm a fan of that I'm not engaged in the fandom with, but I'm like, I'm still a fan of it. Like, I, I, I, I would call myself a fan or things I'm in the fandom with, but I'm like, very peripherally involved or very only involved in certain things. And I think because I have the experience of having been in the, like, the deep end, I also can very quickly tell when, when something is like, intrigues you. And I think here, here's another thing that's very interesting. And I learned this from cult psychology. And this might have come up when you discussed conspiracy theorists and why theories and why people believe them. But this idea that you can have a peak experience when you get a piece of information where you're like, wait a minute, what? And then you just have this like, moment of like, like what? And suddenly it all makes sense and now you have a purpose. And I think that can happen a lot in true crime where you're like, this is such a weird case. And then you read a comment by Free Jason number two, who gives a theory that you're like, suddenly once you put those words together, it all clicks in my head and I, I, I know the truth now. Even though it's like.

Monia Ali (88:45)

It'S just a random comment that may have, have some true elements in it, but might not. But once again, like, because you have that emotional reaction, it's very hard to maintain that critical perspective. Right? Of like, wait a minute, maybe I should investigate.

Host/Interviewer (88:59)

Yes. And like, and like, just remember there's so many angles we don't know. Like, someone who might be portrayed as a great suspect because they're like, creepy because somebody said, like, they looked weird in a video, like, they may have been having a really bad day or like they're stressed or they're anxious or they're, they have neurodivergence, you know, like, and, and there's so much, there can be so much information in cases. I often have trouble because I get so in the weeds. And I remember this happened to us once where we were like, doing a case and it was like, oh, it's just this kind of weird felony murder case. A guy and his friend were robbing a brothel and the friend got killed and the guy survived but got charged with felony murder. It's like kind of a weird law school case you read about because how weird is that? But then we found out, like, he led this whole meaningful life after he got out of jail. And, like, had child and was like, who became a homicide detective. And like. And like. Like, he was just this, like, amazing person who was able to kind of, like, repay his debt to society and became like a volunteer firefighter. And we were just like. I was like, crying putting all this together. And it was like, you never know, like, the worlds that people contain. And like, that's so true for true crime. So easy things where it's like, we're just a fan of this side or another. I think myth this, you gotta try to. I think any kind of thing like that before a trial doesn't even make any sense because we've not heard everything from both sides. So, like, that's too. I mean, some of these things form way too quickly. But even after, let's all just consider there's a lot, you know, we don't know and that there we. It's easy to make assumptions. You want to make assumptions. I think it's, you know, if you want to say, this killer's terrible for doing these things, okay, but, like, we don't need to go further. And I think sometimes people fill their imagination into places where it shouldn't go because life is so complicated.

Monia Ali (90:49)

I think it feels a lot better to either fully hate someone or fully love them as well. I think that's also important to remember. You can be a fan of something and not be a fan of everything, right? It's like, I'm a fan of certain TV shows, but I like to pretend that certain seasons didn't happen because I don't have to be in love with the whole thing and I don't have to turn my back on the whole thing either. Like, you can like certain parts and sort of, you know, leave the rest. And a defense attorney can be right in one case and wrong in another. Like, yeah, life is so complicated and hopefully long for people, right. That there's many errors they can make, but also many right things. And the problem with the Internet is that everything. I like to call it the perpetual present. Because you can find.

Monia Ali (91:35)

Something that happened 2005, and it is like it's happening for the first time when you encounter it, right? And it's just fresh in your mind, and you're just like, this is happening. And it's like, well, for them, it's now been 20 years. They might not think about it the same way, but you're just encountering it for the first time. And you're just like, wow. Which I think a lot of TikTok things like, do, right?

Host/Interviewer (91:56)

Yes.

Monia Ali (91:57)

Like The Beatles revival, where they're like all of this information, it's like the first time, right? And it's like, okay, well. Well, for you, perhaps. Not for everyone else. Not for everyone else.

Host/Interviewer (92:06)

Well, well, Monia, thank you so much. This has been amazing. I wonder is, is there anything I didn't ask you about? I'm sorry, I'm like waving around my gavel.

Monia Ali (92:14)

Yeah, I feel like the judgment is coming.

Host/Interviewer (92:17)

Oh, my God, it's coming. No, I'm just kidding. Is there anything I didn't ask you about that you wanted to mention? You think it's important for people within True crime or who are interested in fandom to sort of understand?

Monia Ali (92:29)

No, I feel like I, I feel like this was a good. I, I feel like I could have talked way more true crime specifics, but no, I think. I think this was good. Awesome.

Host/Interviewer (92:37)

Well, thank you so much. We really appreciate you coming on the show.

Monia Ali (92:40)

Thank you.

Anya Cain (92:42)

Thanks so much, Simonia, for coming on the show. We really, really appreciated it and enjoyed the conversation. And please check out Fandom Exile. I'll be including a link in the show notes. It's definitely a worthwhile read and it's really crucial for understanding a lot about online culture these days.

Kevin Greenlee (92:57)

Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email us@murdersheetmail.com. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

Anya Cain (93:18)

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com.

Anya Cain (93:27)

If you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet. We very much appreciate any support.

Kevin Greenlee (93:41)

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee, who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the web@kevintg.com.

Anya Cain (93:51)

If you're looking to talk with other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet discussion group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.

Kevin Greenlee (94:22)

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Anya Cain (95:37)

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Sponsor/Ad Voice (95:51)

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