You Never Can Forget: The Forty-Seventh Anniversary

Summary

---

Podcast Summary: Murder Sheet – "You Never Can Forget: The Forty-Seventh Anniversary"

Date: November 18, 2025
Hosts: Anya Cain (journalist), Kevin Greenlee (attorney)

---

Main Theme and Purpose

This episode commemorates the 47th anniversary of the unsolved Burger Chef murders—a defining case for both hosts and the true crime community in Indiana. The hosts read and respond to listener questions, revisiting key elements of the case: the mishandled investigation, ongoing challenges in solving it, and the role community engagement may still play in surfacing new information. The tone is frank, thoughtful, and at times frustrated, with the hosts’ personal investment in the case shining through.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Case Recap: The Burger Chef Murders

• Victims:
  • Jane Friedt (assistant manager)
  • Ruthanne Shelton (17)
  • Daniel "Danny" Davis (16)
  • Mark Flemmonds (16)
• Timeline:
  • Disappearance occurred on Nov 17 or 18, 1978, between end of shift and night.
  • All four were abducted from the Speedway, Indiana, Burger Chef restaurant.
  • Bodies found two days later in Johnson County, a drive from the abduction site.
• Case remains unsolved and is personally significant to the hosts.

2. Evidence Handling & DNA Prospects

• Modern forensics (e.g., DNA) have advanced but may not apply due to early evidence mishandling.
• Dramatic evidence preservation failures:
  • Victims’ clothing stored improperly (in a trash bag, in a car for days), likely compromising DNA.
  • Neither the abduction site nor murder site properly secured—multiple agencies trampled the secondary scene, destroying potential evidence (e.g., footprints, tire tracks).
  • [12:17] Kevin Greenlee: “The Speedway Police Department did not take crime scene photos of the interior of the restaurant on the night of the kidnapping...they basically then took faked crime scene pictures.”

Notable quote:

“The secondary crime scene...was trampled by multiple law agencies. The evidence on the kids, on the victims was not well preserved. This was not—and listen, this is all pre-DNA—but other agencies managed to handle these crime scenes...with more care before DNA, and that’s why their cases are solved.”
— Anya Cain [10:17]

3. Agency Involvement and Inter-Agency Issues

• Multiple jurisdictions involved: Speedway PD, Indiana State Police, Marion County Sheriff, Johnson County Sheriff, brief early FBI engagement.
• Muddled responsibility and poor coordination contributed to lost opportunities, further complicating the case.

4. Listener Q&A: Lines of Investigation & Community Engagement

• Should law enforcement pursue further DNA testing? Possible, but with limitations due to preservation issues and lack of sexual assault (where DNA is often found).
• Calls for greater use of social media (especially TikTok) to reach new generations; potentially drawing out living witnesses or those with neighborhood knowledge from 1978.
• Community encouraged to gently ask now-older relatives about the drug trade and other rumors at that time.
  • “Who was selling drugs on the west side around Burger Chef in ’78?” — Anya Cain [16:27]

5. Open Theories: Drugs, Robbery, and Victimology

• Drug trade speculated as a possible motive but hosts remain cautious:
  • Two victims (Jane and Mark) had relatives later convicted of drug-related crimes, but direct involvement by the victims appears unlikely.
  • Many rumors about Mark owing a large drug debt seem implausible.
  • Ruth and Danny are consistently described as "squeaky clean" by people who knew them.
• Alternative theory: a local fast food robbery gang; supported by former police (e.g., Todd McComas) but viewed as just one plausible option.
• Many possible chains of events, no clear theory fits all the facts.
• “It’s almost like a multiverse of theories... Maybe we should make a tree of, ‘If this, then that…’”
  — Anya Cain [64:00]

6. Specific Questions and Deep Dives

• Can the murder scene yield new evidence? Touch DNA from clothing and potential weapon DNA, but time and mishandling dim prospects.
• Handling Rumors and False Leads:
  • Many locals claim to have swapped work shifts with the victims or have inside information; most stories don’t withstand scrutiny.
  • Caution urged: “For us to settle down with a theory...we’re going to need a lot more than just a feeling or intuition or a vibe.” — Kevin Greenlee [47:27]
• Suspicion Around Law Enforcement:
  • Open to the possibility of a corrupt cop, but no evidence found.
  • Difference between incompetence and malice:
    “I don’t attribute to malice what I can to incompetence.” — Anya Cain [41:09]
• The Enigma of Jane Friedt’s Car:
  • Her car found near Speedway PD, not enough mileage added to have been driven to and from the Johnson County crime scene. Status of the van sighting—dubious.
  • Adds layers of mystery, potentially multiple vehicles involved, or witnesses are misremembering.

7. Institutional Issues and Future Hope

• Indiana State Police do have a cold case squad (contrary to popular belief, [58:17]).
• Hosts urge investigators to pursue old-fashioned police work: re-interviewing, reviewing changed stories—not just waiting for a DNA break.
• Host-to-police relationships are cordial but lack insider updates; the hosts use every interaction to remind officials of public interest.

8. Reflections on the Case’s Difficulty and Lingering Mystery

• “The more I know about this case, the less certain I am. There are probably as many as a dozen possibilities I find plausible...It’s maddening.” — Kevin Greenlee [66:11]
• The crime’s randomness—methods of execution, locations—clouds all speculation.
• Uncertainty about whether drugs were central, or whether it was an unusually inexplicable robbery.

---

Notable Quotes (with Timestamps & Attribution)

• “The evidence on the kids, on the victims was not well preserved. This was not—and listen, this is all pre-DNA—but other agencies managed to handle these crime scenes and these pieces of evidence with more care before DNA, and that’s why their cases are solved.”
  — Anya Cain [10:17]

• "The Speedway Police Department did not take crime scene photos...they basically then took faked crime scene pictures."
  — Kevin Greenlee [12:17]

• "We want people who were in Speedway or the west side of Indianapolis or had familiarity with that to talk about what the drug scene was. ...There's a possibility that drugs played a role in this. There's also a possibility they didn't."
  — Anya Cain [60:35]

• "Why abduct people? You could just kill them in the restaurant. That's what most people do... It makes it seem like more than just a simple robbery."
  — Anya Cain [61:32]

• “If it happened today, things would have been handled very differently.”
  — Kevin Greenlee [32:09]

• “For us to settle down with a theory...we’re going to need a lot more than just a feeling or an intuition or a vibe.”
  — Kevin Greenlee [47:27]

• “The more I know about this case, the less certain I am.”
  — Kevin Greenlee [66:11]

• "Burger Chef is the most baffling freaking case because they're just all these weird hinge points where it can go this way or that way, and it's so ambiguous that you can't even determine."
  — Anya Cain [64:00]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Introduction & Case Recap: [03:27]–[07:14]
• Listener Questions & Evidence Handling: [07:14]–[14:08]
• Agency Roles & Investigation Problems: [13:21]–[14:08]
• DNA Potential & Investigative Techniques: [14:11], [18:23], [20:53]
• Law Enforcement Transparency & Theories: [21:12], [23:49], [32:14]
• Deep-Dive: Drug Connections & Victimology: [32:49]–[39:34]
• Debating Shift Claims & Rumors: [39:34]–[40:25]
• Law Enforcement Corruption? [40:54]
• Suspects/Rumors Explored: [45:56]–[48:13]
• Mark Flemmonds' Injuries: [48:13]–[51:33]
• Community Input on Case Details: [53:11]–[54:07]
• Handling Unreliable Witness Accounts: [55:00]–[58:10]
• Future Paths for Investigation: [58:17]–[61:32]
• General Frustrations and Closing Reflections: [65:36]–[67:55]

---

Takeaways for New Listeners

• The Burger Chef case is unsolved in part due to significant mistakes by law enforcement that were exacerbated by the era’s lack of forensic awareness.
• The hosts are candid about gaps in both the original and ongoing investigation, rejecting simplistic or unsupported theories.
• Community involvement may yet help—especially if people with connections to Speedway or the 1978 drug scene come forward with credible information.
• The case endures not only because of its tragic loss but also because it offers so few certainties, with almost every “fact” leading to more confusion.
• The podcast's atmosphere—a blend of professional frustration, investigative rigor, and emotional resonance—underscores why the Burger Chef murders continue to haunt both the hosts and their audience.

Transcript

[Anya Cain]

It's fall. The air's crisp. The sky's darker. In the evening. The holidays are drawing closer. Time to bundle up and get cozy with the latest sweaters, outerwear and essential layers from Quint's.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We love our sponsor Quint's. We shop there all the time. We love getting luxury goods for less. Quint's has prices that are 50% less than similar brands because they cut out the middleman to get you quality items at a reasonable price. Washable silk tops and skirts, Italian wool coats and and of course their signature Mongolian cashmere sweaters.

[Anya Cain]

As the temperatures drop, I'm once again returning to my favorites. My black V neck sweater and a dark blue turtleneck sweater, both in Mongolian cashmere. I just love wearing them. I love how they feel. But I'm also mixing things up with two new purchases. One is my Mongolian cashmere fisherman crewneck sweater in ivory. It's so cozy and soft. And the other is a black 100% washable silk long sleeve mini dress that's for the holidays when I'm feeling fancy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I love my two new quince sweaters too. They're warm and they keep me comfortable against the autumn chill. Check them out. Also, Anya has a delightful blue beret that I love and she's begun to wear.

[Anya Cain]

I love that beret. Step into the holiday season with layers made to feel good, look polished and last from Quince. Perfect for gifting or keeping for yourself. Go to quince.commsheet for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.commsheet to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quinn's.commsheet you can't live the good life without good sleep. Our sponsor Cornbread Hemp crafts quality CBD gummies to help with that. And they've been aiding us in the shut eye department even when we're all wired after spending the day chasing down horrible murder cases.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Cornbread Hemp Sleep CBD gummies have valerian root, chamomile, lavender and full spectrum hemp extract.

[Anya Cain]

We found that they really help us wind down. I struggle to fall asleep.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I have a hard time staying asleep.

[Anya Cain]

These gummies from Cornbread Hemp have helped us both. Cornbread has helped me just settle down at night, which I really appreciate. Just feeling myself get sleepier and sleepier until I drift off into dreamland. And these gummies are the first USDA organic melatonin free CBD gummy In America, we're talking gluten free, vegan, no sugar coating. It's all very clean, natural, and frankly, it's the perfect addition to your bedtime routine. CBD is non intoxicating and the CBD from Cornbread is third party tested and USDA organic.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right now, Cornbread Hemp is offering 30% off your first order. Just go to cornbreadhemp.com msheet and use code msheet at checkout. That's cornbreadhemp.com msheet code msheet for 30% off.

[Anya Cain]

Dude.

[Kevin Greenlee]

This new bacon, egg and chicken biscuit from AM pm.

[Anya Cain]

Total winner, winner, chicken breakfast.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Chicken breakfast? Come on. I think you mean chicken dinner, bro.

[Anya Cain]

Nah, brother. Crispy bacon, fluffy eggs, juicy chicken and a buttery biscuit. That's the perfect breakfast. All right, let me try it. Mm, okay.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, totally. Winner, winner, chicken breakfast. I'm gonna have to keep this right here. Make sure every breakfast is a winner.

[Anya Cain]

With the delicious new bacon, egg and.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Chicken biscuit from AM PM ampm.

[Anya Cain]

Too much good stuff.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm Kevin, and on this episode of the Murder Sheet, we're gonna be talking about the unanswered questions in the Burger Chef murders that still haunt us all 47 years later.

[Anya Cain]

Content warning. This episode includes discussion of violence and murder. So today is the day we're recording. This is November 17, 2025, and exactly 47 years ago today, a crew of four young people working at the Burger Chef in Speedway, Indiana disappeared. This was the day they disappeared, sometime between today and November 18th. No one knows exactly what time they were abducted, but unfortunately these. These four young people who were assistant manager Jane Friedt, as well as the rest of the employees at The Burger Chef, 17 year old Ruthanne Shelton, 16 year old Daniel or Danny Davis, and 16 year old Mark Flemmonds, were never seen alive again. Their bodies were found that Sunday. They were abducted on a Friday. Their bodies were found that Sunday in Johnson County, Indiana, which is, you know, a drive away from Speedway. And this case has come to haunt the area. It's come to haunt us personally. Kevin and I met working on this case. So this case is very significant and important to us and it remains unsolved. And so for the anniversary, we decided to kind of turn it back to all of you in our audience and ask you what do you want to know about the Burger Chef case? What suggestions do you have for us in terms of trying to get more information out there about it and more information back to possibly get answers for these four families and you guys delivered as usual. And today we're going to read some of your questions, suggestions, comments, statements on the show to kind of reignite the discussion of the Burger Chef murders. My name is Anya Cain. I'm a journalist.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I'm Kevin Greenlee. I'm an attorney.

[Anya Cain]

And this is the Murder Sheet.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're a true crime podcast focused on original reporting, interviews, and deep dives into murder cases. We're the Murder Sheet.

[Anya Cain]

And this is. You never can forget the 47th anniversary.

[Kevin Greenlee]

It. And I want to say we haven't done an episode on this case for a while, but behind the scenes, we certainly talk about it every chance we can with anybody who will listen, and we certainly talk about it amongst ourselves quite a bit. So we still think about the case.

[Anya Cain]

Quite a bit all the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We're haunted by it. It's the case I most want to see solved. Is so obviously the biggest question we all have about this is who did it and why. But there's a lot of other questions around it that we're trying to get answers to other people are curious about. I'm curious, what sort of questions did we get, Anya?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And before we start, for anyone who's maybe new to the Burger Chef case and is not familiar with it, I be including a link in our show notes, which is when you click the episode, you'll see this to a recap episode that we did that just gets into some of the big theories, some of the big points. We have a whole extensive series called you never can forget on this that you can go back and listen to. But if you just want the thrust of it and like what happened in this case, the details, I would suggest going listening to that recap if you're not familiar and then you can come back and join us for this episode. Just I, I, you know, we're going to be assuming a bit of knowledge on people's parts with this. So I would just say look in the show notes. The episode kind of just goes into all those things. So I'm gonna look at Patreon first, I think, and we'll look at the questions we got here. One question was I was just thinking about this actually because of yogurt shop, and I was wondering if there are items sitting in an evidence room that Othram or others might take another shot at. So this is an interesting question because it also refers to another restaurant homicide with four victims that got solved recently, and that was the 1991 Austin yogurt sh murders and that saw four young girls tortured, brutalized, bound, gagged, shot and then left in a yogurt shop that was set on fire by serial killer Robert Brashears. So horrible case. They just solved that with a combination of DNA technology and ballistics. And this question refers to Othram as well, a well regarded, well known DNA outfit within True Crime. You've probably heard of them helping to solve different cases that have a DNA element. So the question here is, you know, we know the DNA. There's not been any DNA in the case because it's, you know, it's not solved or at least there's not a significant amount in it because, you know, if there was offender DNA that they found, I would imagine things have been resolved by now. But maybe there are items of evidence that haven't been tested yet and there's still hope for DNA. That's the question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Technology always gets better and better, so there's always that chance. Knowing what I know about the state police and how it works, I would speculate that if there is anything out there that could reasonably get those kind of results, they would go ahead and test them. The thing you need to remember is that in the early days of this case, so many mistakes were made. And from our, from our perspective now in concern of this question, I think one of the most important mistakes that was made was that evidence was handled very, very poorly. I remember for instance, that all of the clothes of the victims were put in like a big trash bag and put in the back of a guy's car and he drove around with it for a while. This isn't really a storage method that's conducive to preserving DNA.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I think it's, it's oftentimes the detail that gets cited as the primary mistake made by police was that the evidence was not preserved in the restaurant properly. But it's way more than that. That, that, that really lets everybody else off the hook too much in my opinion. The secondary crime scene where the bodies were found was trampled by multiple law agencies. The evidence on the kids, on the victims was not well preserved. This was not, and listen, this is all pre DNA. They didn't, you know, but like other agencies managed to handle these crime scenes and these pieces of evidence with more care before DNA and that's why their cases are solved. So I mean it's, it's a tragic thing. Another thing going against DNA is that there's no evidence of sexual assault. And you know, that's a, that's a horrible thing. But it's a situation where Sexual assault, you know, can, to be graphic, you know, lead to more DNA possibly being accumulated at a scene years later. Things like rape kits and that. In this case, there wasn't. In this case, you just have a very bizarre crime scene with multiple methods of killing used. And it's all very mysterious, and no one knows why this is. But, you know, the body's being found outside the bodies, you know, they're not being a sexual assault component in this makes, you know, DNA, you know, possibly a difficult thing. So, you know, and I want to say, like, we actually did an interview with one of the police officers who was one of the first responders to the scene. And I just want to say, like, he expressed a lot of regret and guilt for the way this scene was handled. He was, I believe, just a trainee at that point. I don't believe he's responsible for what happened. I think it was a systemic issue. It's not something where we can assign blame to one person, but it's something where best practices were not followed. So I just do want to note.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That, and I'll just quickly give an example of that, something that I've always found really, really striking and shocking. The Speedway Police Department did not take crime scene photos of the interior of the restaurant on the night of the kidnapping. And then later they thought, oh, we really should have done that. So they go back into the restaurant and try to make it. The restaurant's been cleaned by this point, and they go back into the cleaned restaurant and they try to make it look like it did a day earlier in their memories. And they basically then took faked crime scene pictures. And they did not immediately tell other agencies that these were recreations. Other investigators had to look at it and spot tiny details in them that were wrong.

[Anya Cain]

Like, why is there ice in the cups?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Because the ice would have melted because of the length of time between when the kids went missing and when they were discovered. So, yeah, there's a lot of things that the agencies did that were wrong. What's another question?

[Anya Cain]

And I do. Before we get into another question, when we talk about agencies, this was originally a Speedway Police Department case. The crime occurred in Speedway. Indiana State Police came in pretty quickly, too late, to mitigate the damage done by Speedway in terms of their mishandling of the crime scene. Then we have. When the bodies are found. So we have Speedway. We have the Marion County Sheriff's Offices involved. They had an investigative component back then. And we also. Because that Marion county is where Speedway is. Johnson County Sheriff's Office also gets involved because that's where the bodies are found. And our view is that from what we've heard, Johnson County Sheriff's Office was not great about the crime scene when they were the where the bodies were found and that it just got out of control.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The FBI was also involved briefly.

[Anya Cain]

The Federal Bureau of Investigation was involved very briefly for a couple of days when they were missing because there was a possibility that it was an abduction that crossed state lines. Once it was found to have only crossed county lines within Indiana, there was no federal nexus and they left. So you know, Kevin worked brilliantly and hard to get the FBI to release their files on the case, which he successfully did after many years of trying. And those, those came out and we talked about those in a previous set of episodes. But some interesting information there but you know, nothing too bombshell. So let's do another one. So this is some more suggestions. Somebody suggested that we share the case quote on TikTok with the appropriate hooks to engage younger viewers and that a call to action would be to ask your grandparents and great grandpar parents that lived in or around Indianapolis about the case and anything they remember from Speedway, Indiana. This was something that was regularly asked on a now redacted and memory hold podcast. Even if you don't have information about ask your relatives if they visited, lived there or know anyone who does that you can talk to. What sort of suspicious activities were the responsible parties likely engaging in after the crime? Ask the tick tockers to follow up on certain questions. Anyone who suddenly wanted to get rid of some firearms or refused to ever go in a Burger Chef again, et cetera, some great suggestions there. If we can become maestros of TikTok, I would love to deploy this. And if any nice tiktokers are listening, feel free to steal this idea because you're probably going to be better at it than we are. But let's, let's, let's do this. And for everyone who's listening who has people in their life who were alive on the west side of Indianapolis or Speedway back then in 1978, especially people like listen, maybe your uncle was kind of a, you know, a stoner. Who was he buying weed from? Get people to talk about this. No one's going to get arrested for some pot buy they did when they were in high school in 78. I just want to know who was selling drugs on the west side in Speedway around the Burger chef back in 78. And again, no one's gonna get in trouble, I'm pretty sure. Statutes of Limitations have largely passed, and no one's. No one cares. But I want to know what the drug ecosystem was, who was violent, who was sell, who was. Was anyone letting teenagers run up a big debt, you know, anything like that. So, and actually, here's another question that kind of gets into this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Quote.

[Anya Cain]

My main interest, I suppose, would be whether the case is still being actively considered, inasmuch cold cases are within isp, and whether there are avenues of investigation that they still consider viable. I know ISP hasn't been exactly forthcoming with information since the red Ball fiasco, so this is a very tough one to answer, end quote. I also, I wonder if Doug Carter, now retired and presumably more free to speak, might have any insight. Actually, the previous questioner also said we should do an interview with ASMR sensation Doug Carter. He had an. He had a video that went viral where he was, like, doing ASMR when he was, like, inspecting the new troopers for Indiana State Police. And so congrats to him for that. It's great. He's a great guy. So are there viable avenues of investigation? We don't know. I. Okay, you go first.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think, yes, I think there are viable avenues for investigation. I think there's always hope in any case. Maybe that makes me naive, I don't know, but that's what I believe. And I'm not confident that the case is being worked on actively within isp, and I'm sure there's reasons for that because there's so many other cases going on. But I would be shocked if they weren't at least discussing some of the DNA angles, because every day it seems like in the news we see cases solved by DNA. So I wouldn't be surprised if they were looking at things like that. I don't think they're actively going out and knocking on doors.

[Anya Cain]

Your home should be your refuge. But as true crime podcasters, we can tell you that criminals are out there willing to violate your peace and security for whatever their insidious motive is. It's a real danger, and it's probably one of the scariest things that can happen to a person or a family.

[Kevin Greenlee]

One big problem is that traditional home security systems are helpless to deal with this. They don't react until an intruder is already inside or actively breaking in. So the trauma is already going to be there for the homeowner. But Simplisafe is different, and that's why we trust them to protect our home. And now our listeners are going to get 60% off in SimpliSafe's Biggest sale of the year.

[Anya Cain]

The reason we love our Simplisafe home security system is we know it's proactive. If a possible intruder comes up to our door, their live agents will be on it to jump on the situation. They'll confront the person, tell them police are on the way and start sounding alarms and flashing lights. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to monitor Alerts yourself. SimpliSafe's AI powered cameras and live human agents will do it all for you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've used our SimpliSafe home security system for years. It's a brand we trust. It's become a part of our lives and given us peace of mind. As true crime podcasters, we've gotten threats, so we take security seriously. We trust Simplisafe to protect our family from burglars, criminals and anyone who might do us harm.

[Anya Cain]

Don't miss out on Simplisafe's biggest sale of the year. 60% off. Right now our listeners can save 60% off on a SimpliSafe home security [e-mail] msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no save like Simplisafe. I think DNA is wonderful. Solved a lot of cold cases, as we all know. I don't think it's a silver bullet in a case where there's no definitive confirmation that there even ever is going to be DNA. I mean, I don't know, they might have found DNA today and they're working on it. I have no idea. We have no way of knowing that. But I mean, speculating, I don't think they, I don't think this is a good candidate for DNA. I hope I'm wrong. I desperately hope I'm wrong. But if it's not, and then we can't be just waiting around for DNA. We have to have people, investigators knocking on doors, re interviewing people, re interviewing people whose stories have changed. Re interviewing people who, you know, it's been revealed, you know, lied or, you know, like that's what needs to happen. You can't. DNA cannot replace old fashioned police work.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if you've listened to some of our earlier coverage of this case, you were well aware of the fact that we were critical of isp. And I think it's fair to say our coverage did not make us friends within the people at ISP who actively work on this case. So we don't really have any sources over there as to what may or may not be currently happening.

[Anya Cain]

No no, no, no, we definitely don't. This questioner also said, as I recall, former mayor Stephen Goldsmith was prosecutor investigators presented with their case in the early 80s. I wonder if he'd to sit for an interview. Stephen Goldsmith, go on murder sheet. Let's go.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I don't think it would come as a surprise that we reached out to him multiple times and he had to receive a reply.

[Anya Cain]

And like, I think he'd be super interesting to talk to for so many reasons. I'm going to say this. He was presented with a really dumb case against Donald Forester that did not go anywhere. So, like, I mean, I'd be curious to know what he knows, but at the same time, like, he was a important part of a piece that I think is like, the one thing I'm convinced, the one person I'm convinced had nothing to do with Burger Chef is Donald Forrester, who was a convicted rapist, an evil man. Would not surprise me if he raped and murdered other women. He was like that serial killer type.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But yeah, the police, the sheriffs, rather presented Goldsmith with some evidence saying, we think this guy did it. Are you going to charge him? And Goldsmith said no.

[Anya Cain]

In the 80s, there was this standoff between Marion County Sheriff's Office, which, you know, like, really would liked Forrester for the case. And they kept on taking him out of, you know, Michigan City Prison, which was. He was having a very bad time because he was extremely racist and bringing him to, like, the comparatively nicer Marion County Jail. And he kept on telling them what they wanted to hear. They had him in a room with crime scene pictures. They had him in a room with, like, information about the case. They were feeding him information about the case, most likely accidentally. I mean, I'm not saying there was any malfeasance here. It's just like it wasn't a good interview. And he still got a ton of details wrong. He was like, yeah, I stabbed Jane in the leg. She wasn't stabbed in the leg. She was stabbed twice in the heart. Like, like he just was getting stuff wrong. Like he, he. I mean, also, if I hate to say this, but it had. Had he'd been involved, there would have been sexual assault. I mean, that was his thing that he did. If he had a woman in his power, whether they were known to him or not known to him, he would sexually assault them. So I, I think that was all, you know, a mess. I think Indiana State Police was correct to be extremely skeptical about that. And I think Goldsmith and his office were also correct to be Skeptical about that. I know the Marion Sheriff's Office took it hard, but I understand that they put a lot of resources into that, but it was just. I don't think it was correct.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What's the next question?

[Anya Cain]

I think that's it for Patreon.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think we only had a couple on our Facebook group. Do you want to do that?

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I'll look at that. Look at the situation.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So.

[Anya Cain]

Let'S see.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And then I have the ones from the Burger Chef group group ready to go when you're done.

[Anya Cain]

This is a similar question and unfortunately it looks like, I don't know, our Facebook group's been weird lately. Like AI or something is automatically removing comments. So I do apologize if that's happened to anyone in our group lately. I don't know why that is, but I know our moderator is trying to work on it. We're trying to look into it, but I. I don't know. So if you asked a question here and we didn't get to it, I'm sorry, Somebody did ask a related question to something we already covered about DNA. Is there still evidence from the case that can be checked for DNA? The answer to that is yes. Whether it has DNA or not on it, or whether it has offender DNA. Right. I mean, if they find something and it's traced back to one of their victims, non criminal relatives, you know, like a younger sister or something, that doesn't really mean anything. All right. Onto. Onto the burger. There's a Burger Chef group that we're in. So we also ask people there.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We actually are one of the administrators of that group.

[Anya Cain]

We run this town and that's okay. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So we asked for it there. We haven't been giving the names of the people who submit the questions. I'm going to make an exception in this case because the question comes from Christopher Davis. Christopher Davis is someone who cares very, very deeply about this case. He's really researched it extensively. And it's one of the things in this case where I don't know if you've had this experience with other really highly specialized areas, but it gets to the point where if you want to talk about something that's really, really in the weeds on something, there's probably only a few people you can talk to. And one of the few people that I can talk to and Anya can talk to who really know all of the weeds and details would be Christopher Davis. With that said, I think he and I and Anya have some pretty serious disagreements.

[Anya Cain]

We do, we do, but we've had Chris on the show before and so appreciate his question.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Actually, he has two. I'll read the first one. I'd love to get a breakdown for the public of just how the Johnson county crime scene could have yielded evidence capable of solving this crime. I often frame it this way. If four bodies were found in that field and no one knew where any of them had been prior to being killed, would we still not have an expectation that the crime scene be handled appropriately and yield evidence to the agency in charge? I think this is useful because even if people think as I don't, the Speedway police ruined this case from the beginning. It doesn't matter because our only option now is ISP solving it. So the Johnson county crime scene, to be clear, this is the. The murder site. This is where the four bodies were discovered. What sort of evidence could be expected to be yielded from that? One thing we mentioned earlier was if the clothing had been handled appropriately, there's the possibility of touch DNA. Use your imagination and think. Is there any place on a person's body that the killer may have touched as they were, like, maneuvering them to wherever they were taking them that could have potentially yielded touch DNA?

[Anya Cain]

Shoulders of jackets, collars of jackets. Right. Wrists of jackets or clothing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Anya mentioned earlier, I think tire tracks, if they.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think I mentioned that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I thought you mentioned the tire tracks had been obliterated because so many.

[Anya Cain]

I don't think I said. I think I just said the crime scene was trampled.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The crime scene was trampled. So any tire tracks of the murderer's vehicle? Basically gone. Any footprints are gone. What else could we have yielded from that scene if it had been protected?

[Anya Cain]

You know, a knife was used. Right? A knife was used on Jane. So let's zoom back a little bit. Ruth and Danny are lying side by side, and they're shot multiple times in the head and neck with a.38 caliber weapon. Jane is stabbed twice in the heart with such force that the knife handle broke off inside her, killing her instantly. And Mark is found. Mark is the most bizarre one. He's found where he's. He's suffered, like, trauma to his nose. And he's found with his, like, feet and legs almost like. Like, tucked under his body, where that kind of creates almost a situation where he's kind of, like, leaned. His head is leaned back. And essentially what. What it appears to be is he was somehow knocked unconscious and then asphyxiated on his own blood, which is almost like one on earth happened. So, like, as far as, like, Weapons with that, obviously, bullets. That's not gonna. That's never a very good source of DNA. A knife, if the killer nicked himself and some of the blood was the per. The perpetrator who stabbed Jane versus her, that could be something. Would be, you know, potentially fruitful. Although I know getting, like, combined DNA like that is kind of a nightmare to sort out.

[Kevin Greenlee]

As long as we're doing this exercise, why don't we continue it and talk about what we could have learned from the crime scene in the restaurant? This is where the four people were abducted. This is one of the things we have disagreements with Chris. We just read that he kind of lets the Speedway police, in our view, off the hook. I think they bear some responsibility here. What kind of details could we have gotten from the crime scene if it hadn't been cleaned?

[Anya Cain]

I see where Chris is going with this, and I do think this is worth pointing out. A restaurant is a public place. People have a good reason to be in a restaurant if they go eat at the restaurant. Right?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Right.

[Anya Cain]

Someone's DNA or fingerprints at the restaurant, if it's in a public accessible, like, you know, booth or whatever, that's not necessarily something that would point to anybody. That just means you ate at the restaurant. Where things would be more helpful at the restaurant had things been handled differently is had there been fingerprints of people who did not work at the restaurant in areas of the restaurant that they should not. So, for instance, honor around the cash registers. The public shouldn't be handling the cash register. So why would there be this unidentified fingerprint there? The safe. The office. The safe was found emptied out. So if someone's handling the safe, if someone's handling things in the manager's office during this robbery, all of that would have been helpful because that. There's no reason for anyone to be back there. So in. If that. If that was fruitful, that would have potentially solved it. And I'm thinking for both scenes, things like cigarettes, right. Cigarette butts, like, with someone smoking in one or both places. Right. That could. That could point to somebody.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm gonna go ahead and read Chris's second question.

[Anya Cain]

I just want to say, again, I do see what Chris was saying with. In terms of it being worse because the murder site is, like, where the murderers were, right? I mean, like, that's like. We know that. Whereas anyone could have potentially been in the Burger Shove. But I think the. I think the sloppiness of the handling of the initial crime scene almost bled into the sloppiness of the handling of the later crime scene. And I think, I think all of it is bad. It's. It's not really.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I think all of it is bad. And I'm not inclined to let the Speedway police or frankly, any of the agencies involved in any of the crime scenes off the hook.

[Anya Cain]

No. Yeah, this was a bad. This was. This was.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I, I will let me hasten to say the, the Speedway Police Department today, the Indiana State Police today are very different agencies than they were in 1978.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I mean, I don't believe in like collective guilt. Right. I don't believe in like everybody is terrible who worked on this. No, I mean, a lot of people put in a lot of good effort. It's just, it, it, it's like.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if it happened today, things would have been. Oh, it would have been handled very differently.

[Anya Cain]

So differently.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Chris's second question. I'd love to see a real. No punches pulled look at the victimology of the Burger Chef employees. Not just the victims. We know more than one had ties to drugs and criminal figures at the time of the murders. Todd McComas and Stoney Van came the closest to doing this when they posited how one of the robbery gang members may have recognized Jane. But I think their tunnel vision let much more obvious potential connections fly by the radar. And I think it's time to talk about real risk factors in these kids lives to see if any cockroaches scatter when we turn that light on. End quote.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, no, that's. So the reference to Todd McComas. Todd McComas is a former Indiana State Police detective, I believe, and he. Really nice guy. We've had him on the show as well. His show. 1041. Right. Am I getting that right? Of course. I'm blanking on what his show is as we're talking on this show. But you know, his show is like very. He believes strongly that there's a specific robbery gang that was hitting burger chefs and KFCs in the, in. In the Indianapolis area at the time.

[Kevin Greenlee]

There was such a game.

[Anya Cain]

There was, yeah.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And he believes they're the ones responsible.

[Anya Cain]

So he, that's his theory. He did that series, does a very good job of kind of like explaining what that theory is and why they think that. And I think that is a popular theory within law enforcement. And I think it's a good theory. I, I don't have a theory. Right. Like, I don't, I don't subscribe to anything conclusively. I think there's, there's problems with the But I think he does a good job of explaining it. But I think Chris's point is fair victimology around. Who are these kids, the victims and the other people who worked at the burger chef.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. And we, we can do this in a way that I would never want to spread identifying rumors about someone unless there was solid evidence. But we can talk about general things, about some of the stories we've heard about drugs at that Burger chef. And I think we can also talk about things that are public record about some of the relatives of some of the Berger Chef victims. Two of the victims had brothers who later became charged with drug offenses.

[Anya Cain]

Jimmy Friedt, Jane's brother, was charged with, you know, extensive cocaine smuggling. That seems pretty significant. Now, I just want to be clear. I personally do not think Jane Fried herself was involved in drugs. Like, when talking to people who knew her, just kind of looking at her life like, I don't, I don't see her as someone who is like a drug person necessarily. I know some people have put that out there and spread that around. But I. People who actually knew her who, like, you know, I don't know, it just doesn't really fit with my image of her. I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm just, I'm just saying that, like, I have, I have a skepticism about that to a certain extent, because again, anything can happen. But I also, but I do think she did have proximity to the drug trade, just at least through her brother. And if we're looking at that, you know, is someone trying to use her to get to him? Is that a possibility? We don't know. Maybe. So he's very involved in cocaine smuggling. One thing you have to realize is that drug Indianapolis was awash in drugs in the 70s. Like, people try to act like, oh, Speedway was like Mayberry. Yeah. If there was like a significant cocaine and marijuana trafficking thing.

[Kevin Greenlee]

What about Mark Fleming's brother?

[Anya Cain]

Mark Fleming's brother Kevin. Kevin Flemons was later convicted of a drug related murder. So he was obviously heavily involved in drugs. Mark grew up in a very strict religious family, but obviously that didn't take for Kevin. And with Mark, you hear rumors about him at least, like smoking pot or being involved in drugs. Now, I want to note he's 16. There's a really big difference between smoking pot occasionally and being involved in some kind of drug deal that gets you killed. In my view, there has to be like specific things that happen with a drug deal. We've also, there's been rumors and these have been reported in the press that Mark owed a significant drug debt. But one thing we, we run into when we talk to people who were aware of the drug atmosphere back then is like who allows a 16 year old to build up a debt of thousands of dollars? That's bad business. What kind of drug dealer is doing that to the point where then he has to kill somebody? Like that doesn't. Yeah, that doesn't make a lot of sense either. So. But again the stories about, the stories about Jane and Mark, Ruth and Danny, not so much. Ruth was very squeaky clean in the sense that she was. Loved computers, you know, like very religious, you know, like things like that. I don't want to, I don't want to flatten people. Right. Because like, you know, everyone has, is multifaceted. But in terms of like Ruth being involved in any sort of criminal behavior, you don't hear that, you don't really hear that with Danny at all. And again like with Mark and Jane, I feel like it's flimsy. I feel like it's very flimsy that they were involved in anything. I mean these were kids who like, they had jobs, they went to the jobs. I just don't, I don't.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I would never want to do what I feel people have done with Scott Macklem and invent stories or rumors. I'm, I'm interested if you have rumors, you know, share them, send, send them to us privately. I'm not going to put anything on this show that identifies people there being involved in nefarious activities unless I have solid proof of it.

[Anya Cain]

I think we can.

[Kevin Greenlee]

With that said, I pretty confident in saying that there was a lot of drug activity added around that burger chef.

[Anya Cain]

I think we can say that there's been reports with Jane and Mark. I'm skeptical of those. We did talk to Mark's best friend who knew him very well. I mean he didn't feel like he was involved in drugs or anything like that. You know, I mean I, I just, I don't, I don't feel like we have anything conclusive around that. We do have something conclusive around Mark and Jane both having relatives who are engaged in pretty extensive criminality. And again, that's not all of Mark and Jane's relatives. Those are people like Jimmy and Kevin were like, I think aberrations. They weren't like, oh yeah, their families were all doing this. It was like, no, these guys kind of turned out this way and they're doing that. But doesn't really reflect on the entire family. It just, you Know, sometimes people just go down the wrong path. But. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I think what really interests me is more of all, I mean, I'm going to just say this. When you look at press reports and you look at what we've been told and you look at everything, I find it extremely bizarre that there are so many people who claim to have switched out the shift that night. Like, everybody switched with Mark. Like, it's like a, it's like a musical chairs of everybody. Oh, I, that would have been me, but I switched shifts. I find that odd.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I, I, I, I find it interesting. Maybe I find it less odd than you because I think of all the people who say they were in Ford's Theater, right underneath Ligon's box when he was shot. People have a tendency to want to insert themselves into a story.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, I agree. But I also, if, I mean, if any part of it's true, then a lot of people were keen to switch cysts all of a sudden. You know, I mean, I think it is a part of, like, people trying to insert themselves in. But like, you know, it's like we have, you know, it just, I, we hear that a lot. We hear that a lot. People coming forward and claiming to have, you know, seen something or done something associated with this. This does seem to be a case that, like, does like, attract a certain element of people who are basically like, oh, I saw this. And then you look at their story and it doesn't add up. And it's like, why are you lying? Can you just go away?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, we might get to one of those later on in this discussion. Let's move on. Here's a question from someone else. Why isn't anyone looking into why the Speedway Police Department effed this up so bad? Or, sure, you want to say they were a small department, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. At the same time, you want to taint at least one of the employees with a drug connection. Well, wouldn't you wonder if at least one of those cops was involved?

[Anya Cain]

I mean, okay, like, I hear what, I hear what this person's saying, but first of all, in terms of looking into why they messed it up, I mean, we have like, we, we interviewed somebody who was a trainee that night, who responded to the scene. And again, he's, he feels a lot of guilt about this. He, I don't, he's, I don't think he's someone who went in with any intention to do anything wrong. He was there with a more experienced police officer and I think they called in people and things just did not go the way they were supposed to go. I mean, I for, I mean to say that they were trying to like frame this up from the start, I don't think makes any sense because they would have had no reason to. I think. I don't attribute to malice what I can to incompetence. I guess that's kind of a like a lesson in life. You know, I think sometimes we, when we see police or institutions fail, we want to read malice into that because like we can't stand the idea of them being incompetent. Like we don't want anything to be incompetent because that means that life is random and you might just like luck out and like, or, you know, not, not have any luck and run into something like this. If they're malicious, then at least they're competent at doing bad things. So, you know, so that, I guess that's one aspect I'm willing to consider.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Any and all possibilities. And certainly one of the possibilities you and I have looked at over the years is the possibility that at least one member of the Speedway police department could have been involved in this.

[Anya Cain]

Yes.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I've not found any persuasive evidence that that is the case. And I certainly haven't found any persuasive evidence that would indicate that the crime scene was messed up to obscure that person's involvement. But it is something we have considered. There's more evidence that comes up. I will certainly take it seriously.

[Anya Cain]

Here's what we would have been looking for as far as like a purposeful cover up of the crime scene. We would be looking at that person responding very quickly to, to mess things up. Yeah, you know, we wouldn't be like if that would be a red flag. Other people responding and just kind of making the wrong choices over time. Doesn't feel. That just feels like incompetence and not realizing what they had or some people realizing that this is very serious. But they're not the ones in charge or they're not the ones in control of the crime scene. You know, I think that's. But I mean we're, we're open to that. We're open to police corruption, police involvement. Certainly, you know, people have told us things about the Speedway police Department back in the 70s that were not very flattering. That, you know, there was an element of, you know, racism there. There was, there was, you know, if you were a black driver, you didn't want to drive through Speedway. Right. So there, there's Things that are, like, concerning and, you know, just from a societal perspective, but we don't have any smoking guns as far as that. And, and again, like, if I don't have evidence of malice, I'm not going to assume that. Yeah, I, I'm open to it, but I'm not going to assume that.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I'm, I'm definitely open to it, but.

[Anya Cain]

If anyone has anything, please let us know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I will take it seriously.

[Anya Cain]

And, and in terms of, like, tainting one of the employees with a drug connection, I, I think there were, I mean, they're rumor. There are drug connections through the relatives with Jane and Mark, but I, I don't know where some of those rumors came from about Mark specifically, because I feel like he got, he got a lot of that in the press in the 70s. It was like, oh, they're looking into him having a drug debt. And it's like, where is that coming from? I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know either.

[Anya Cain]

I wish I knew. I mean, that would be interesting if that's, Is that coming from police officers? Is that coming from his peers? Is that coming from. I don't know. So I, I, I, Some of those journalists I would love to get my hands on, some of them are dead. Like, who told you this? Yeah, and, and, and, and somebody said, if you're going to even try to cover this case for a fair review, you need to dig deeper than they have before. It's time to stop covering for the people wearing a badge and look at everyone. I mean, we certainly have, I don't know. I mean, if that's directed at us.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We, I mean, I think we've covered this story with more depth than anyone else.

[Anya Cain]

Yep.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A lot of the information out there now that's being discussed is information that was originally released on our podcast.

[Anya Cain]

That is so true. And I'm gonna say, like, you know, we're open to anything. I don't, I don't care. I mean, like, I, we're just, like, we're not gonna just randomly accuse somebody and say, this is definitely the murderer without some substantive evidence. I'm not gonna say that there was police corruption that influenced how this turned out. Without evidence. I need evidence. I'm open to all of that, but I need evidence. And I'm skeptical when people just sort of say things as if, well, this happened, so then this must be true. Without evidence, I just need, we need something concrete to do anything with any of this.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The next one's more of a comment saying, people will hate me for Saying so there's no doubt in my mind that Jeff Reed was involved. Jeff Reed is someone who's often cited as suspect. A possible witness named Alan Pruitt says he saw Jeff Reed there that night. I'll say it's plausible in my mind that Jeff Reed's involved. The problem with me is I'm not comfortable saying that there's no doubt in my mind that anyone was involved. This case is so complicated with so many suspects.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. People are totally entitled to their own opinions or thinking. This theory is better. We talked about, you know, like, Todd McComas thinks it's the robbery gang. I think Chris has his own theory. We've flirted with theories without ever committing. And, you know, I think. I think this person thinks it's Jeff Reed, and that's totally fine. I think he's a viable suspect. I think all of the people I just mentioned have more viable theories than Donald Forrester did it, in my opinion. So all of that's on the table. I think it's just that for us to settle down with a theory, for us to marry a theory, we're going to need a lot more than just a feeling or just an intuition or just a vibe. Just because for us, it would be very. It would. It would be like a really big deal in our opinions, for us to sit down and be like, we actually think it's this now, people. There's a difference between us expressing an opinion and. And like a case going to trial. Right. But for me, I would want to feel very confident. Okay. I think we know this is what happened before we settled on something. Right now we're extremely agnostic about theories. And we also. One of our biggest thoughts that we talk about a lot is it could be someone we've never heard of. Could be someone who's not even in the police file. It really could. I don't know. So Jeff Reed, I think, is a good theory. And this person knew him so kind of felt like there were some things there where he could have done it based on his personality. And I think that's fair. I just think we're just. We want even more than just one possibly, you know, unreliable witness who may have had his own agenda.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So the next person to make a question or comment brings up the issue of Mark Flemont and his injuries. Mark Flemons happened to be African American, and I mentioned that in case it turns out to be relevant. So, as Anya mentioned earlier, the victims, Danny and Ruth, were side by side shot. Jane's a short distance Away, stabbed in the heart. And Mark is a distance away, and he has suffered some sort of an injury to his face and is basically. There's no nice way to say this. He choked to death on his own blood. And so it's unclear how he sustained that injury. It is possible that as the violence was happening, Mark saw an opportunity to escape and took off running in the dark and literally ran face first into a tree, and as a result of that injury, fell back in such a way that he choked to death on his blood. It's also possible that he was hit with a baseball bat or a motorcycle chain of something of that nature. We don't know and the police don't know. And this is crucial for a number of reasons, one of which is none of the other victims appear to have been beaten. If Mark was beaten, does that suggest that he was singled out for some reason? Was he. Was there some bit of information they wanted from him? Did they just dislike him more because of the color of his skin?

[Anya Cain]

Did he fight back?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Did he fight back? Was it an instance where he just took off running and it was just awful chance that he didn't. Wasn't able to escape?

[Anya Cain]

Part of. I've always been like, you know, had he fallen differently, we've been told that he wouldn't have died. So it's like they almost left him to chance more. Did that. Was he. Does that mean that. Did they just want to knock him out or something? Or like, you know, why leave him to chance? When you make sure everyone else is dead, Are you out of bullets or did the. The knife broke in? Jane. So this is all you have. It just it. Depending on whether he's beaten or it's more of an accident, it really kind of changes the calculus on whether, like, on how you even look at the crime. And this is the problem with Burger Chef. There's no, like, solid variables that you can count on everything as well. It's either this or that. And if it's this, then it means this, but if it means that, then it's that. And it's just, you know, it's impossible to make any freaking conclusions on this thing because you just don't know. I'm going to tell you. I personally hate the tree theory. I hate the tree theory.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Came running into a tree.

[Anya Cain]

I think that just sounds dumb. And I'm not saying it's not what happened, but I'm just saying that just doesn't sound plausible to me. But again, like, I don't know. I just have a hard Time believing someone could be running so fast that that happens. Like, I think if someone was able to show me something where, like, that happened or something, you know, like something similar happened, I. I might be able to get on board with that more, but I just. It just sounds really. It's. It. I think he was attacked. I don't think a tree did that to him.

[Kevin Greenlee]

But then if he was attacked, why did they just leave him? Because the beating he suffered, if it was a beating, was not enough to kill him. I don't know. If he was just in a slightly different position, he would have lived.

[Anya Cain]

I mean, do we know that, though?

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's what everybody who's worked on the case has told us.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. I don't know. Have we heard speculation. Was he wearing a backpack or something?

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't recall.

[Anya Cain]

I. I thought we've heard speculation that something like he may have made some sound that, like, made them think he was dead or something. I don't know. It again, it's just. It's hard. It's really difficult. The tree thing, though, I just don't. I don't know.

[Kevin Greenlee]

A couple comments, people. Why didn't they protect the crime scene? Yeah, I. I don't know. I wish they had. Somebody wonders if the police have tested all of the evidence that they possess. That I can tell you probably not, because a lot of the testing that can be done of this materials would destroy the material. And so police would have to say, well, if we test this today, maybe we have a 50% chance of getting a result, but the material would be destroyed. Maybe two years from now or five years from now, there'd be a much better test available. So I don't think they've literally tested everything. I know there were some. This person also mentions a cigarette in Jane's car. My understanding is there were a lot of cigarette butts in her car. Yeah, because she liked to smoke in the car. I don't believe they've tested every single one of those, if any.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah. And many of those may be just hers. Let me just say. Like in the BTK case, in the case of serial killer Dennis Rader. Bind, torture, kill in Kansas City. In Wichita, rather, in. In Wichita, Kansas. So he. He does all these crimes. And Ken Landware, who was the detective on that case. Sorry if I butchered his name. He. Essentially the way he solved the case was he just refused to test it for DNA until they really had a shot at it in the early 2000s. Had he destroyed evidence earlier with these more primitive techniques, they may that. That would have been a problem, potentially. So sometimes holding back is the prudent thing to do. And even though that's really frustrating, we want them to do something. And we certainly are in that boat of frustration as well. But it's like, if DNA gets, like, a billion times better in five years, then it would have made sense to wait.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Here's a question. I'm curious why it took so long for the investigators to interview the elderly couple driving by that night and seeing the employees getting in the van. So this is. This is a story. A couple of people have claimed they were driving by that night and saw this abduction happen. And then as they're. And they're driving by at a normal rate of speed, they see the people getting into the car, and then a stoplight or two later, the van somehow has caught up with them, and they hear, like, screaming from inside of the van. And they. They claim they called police several times and didn't get a call back. I'm. I'm going to be blunt, if that's okay.

[Anya Cain]

Please, please be blunt.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I. I don't believe them.

[Anya Cain]

I don't believe them at all. At all.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And if I don't believe them about what they claim they saw, I, I also don't believe them about the police response.

[Anya Cain]

Do you. Do you want to say why you don't believe them?

[Kevin Greenlee]

There's a number of reasons why I don't believe them. One of which is, at least in the conversation with us, they referenced this. Oh, we had just seen this particular movie and the movie they referenced, and they say, oh, there was also a child with them, and the child was upset because we just seen this horror movie, and the horror movie they referenced didn't come out until like, a year afterwards. And the idea of this van. You see people being led into a van as you're driving by at like, 30, 40 miles per hour. I question how much detail you can see. But I also question, okay, you continue to drive at that rate of speed, it's going to take a couple minutes for all those people to get inside the van. Somehow they catch up with you at the next stoplight. Yeah, that doesn't really make sense to me. The idea of them screaming inside the van, and you can hear that, and you can hear that. If they were willing to scream to attract attention, why didn't they do that earlier when they were being led into the van? Or. I don't understand that. It just doesn't have the ring of truth to me. What do you think?

[Anya Cain]

It doesn't have the ring of truth to me either. I think it's made up. I mean, listen, we run into this all the time with Burger Chef. People ask, why would anyone lie about this? For attention. I mean, it's simply for attention. In some cases, it's actually not malicious. It's just people have some vague memory that they associate with this case and they build it up in their own minds and they essentially lie to themselves. And it's like, oh, yeah, no, like, you know, they vaguely remember seeing something and then they just build it up and it becomes a whole elaborate story. And then they start, you know, hawking it to people. And again, like, I think it's, I think it's self delusion.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We've heard lots of stories.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, we've heard a lot of nonsense. We've had a lot of people waste our times and I resent all of them. Like, I don't resent people who have something when they come forward and they're like, listen, I'm not sure what this is. I'm gonna give it to you. That's fine. You know, like when people. But we've had so many people like pitch us, oh, we have the answer, you know, and then it's like, doesn't make any sense based on what they tell us. And it's like, like sometimes it's just lies and sometimes it's more self delusion. And I can, I can understand that people are capable of fooling themselves. And like, I'm not saying that they're trying to be liars, but it's like, come on. You know, and then it just gets repeated endlessly because it's like posted on some Facebook group or Facebook page or it comes out in, you know, like post somewhere and it's like, this isn't helpful. Like, why, like why would you do this? And yeah, like if it's such an important thing and you remember the anchoring thing is a movie that came out a year later, then yeah, no, we're not going to take that seriously. It's just dumb.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, it's dumb. I think that's about it. Do you have any other questions you wanted to highlight?

[Anya Cain]

Somebody said ISP doesn't have a cold case squad anymore. I don't think that's actually not true. It was true for while, but they have reopened a cold case squad. That gives us some hope. I don't think the cold case squad is necessarily working on this one. I, I just don't know. But they do have a cold case squad. I hope at some Point, the cold case squad at least reviews this to just make sure that they're doing, you know, there's no things that could be done. I mean, again, I, I just don't, I don't love the idea of sitting around waiting for DNA in this case. I, I understand it, because DNA, if they find, like some known restaurant, if they find one of the robbery gangs, DNA on something, it's over, Right? They got it. But like, and I know that's like kind of the, you know, the silver bullet, right? But it's, it's just, I don't know if they're gonna get that. And I think people are old and dying and they should talk to some of them and get their statements again before that happens. And I know they don't have endless resources. I know. But I think this is an important case and it deserves to not be treated like a cold case. I, we were talking to a former FBI federal prosecutor the other, the other day, and he was like, listen, if you treat a cold case like a cold case, you're probably not going to solve it. If you treat it like a case and you're doing what you need to do to get answers and like, whatever that means, whether that's DNA, whether that's talking to people, whether that's this or that, ballistics, whatever, that's the way it gets solved, right? You don't treat it like it's this ancient thing where it's like, oh, gosh, you know, you run it down. And I would like to see that energy.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I would, too. I'm not going to reveal any off the record conversations or communications, but I think it's fair to say anytime you hear us on the program, interview anybody at isp, you can probably safely assume that if they're in any area even remotely connected to Burger Chef matters, that either before we turn on the microphones or after we turn them off, one or both of us say, hey, do you hear about this Burger Chef case? So we're always trying to nudge people, and we're not.

[Anya Cain]

Like, we're actually usually not even asking questions like, to get information for ourselves. We're more of just like, can you, can you, can you please, can you.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Please solve this case for us?

[Anya Cain]

Can you please solve this case? Like, please just know people care about this case and people really want it to be solved. It's really an important case and we don't want it to be like, oh, well, no one's asking us about it, so I guess no one cares. Every, like, people care People care deeply. I think the questions we got are a testament to that. People want to know, people want to help, people want to be supportive. And this is just something where we need to keep pushing. But from, from a, from a crowdsourcing perspective, as I mentioned at the top of the show, we want people who were in Speedway or the west side of Indianapolis or had familiar, had familiarity with that to talk about what the drug scene was. There's a possibility that drugs played a role in this. There's also a possibility they didn't. It could have just been a robbery. But there's enough weirdness about this that drugs look like something that are a possibility. And I. Can I explain what that means to me?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Please do so.

[Anya Cain]

Most fast food homicide robberies, a lot of them are inside jobs where you have aggrieved young male employees, usually two, who either get fired or they're being reprimanded at work, or they're just unhappy and they come back and they kill everyone and they rob the place and they don't get that much money, but they kill everyone and they rob the place. And what those usually look like is they force everyone into the office or into a freezer and they just stab or gun them down. Sometimes they're bound, sometimes they're not. That's how it looks like when we're talking about Burger Chef. They were abducted from the scene. Why, why abduct people? You could just kill them in the restaurant. That's what most people do. Why run the risk of taking them out and taking them across county lines? At any time you could have car trouble, you could be pulled over, somebody could see you. You're just, you're going out in the open in a way that, you know, it's. It is late at night. But nonetheless, you're still adding that level of risk there versus just kind of shooting everyone in the restaurant and then con having it being a self contained thing. So that has always stuck for us as like, why? And. And perhaps if you're trying to use people as like leverage for some sort of drug deal gone wrong or there's something around that, or we need to go talk to these people. I don't know. I mean, we're speculating at this point, but it makes it seem like more than just a simple robbery.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I don't know. Anything's possible. To me at this point, one thing that always sticks in my mind, I think I've said this on the program before, is Jane fried her car.

[Anya Cain]

Oh my God. The car.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Her car is discovered Like a mile or so away near a park that's not far from a police station. What does that mean? I don't know. If everybody was put into a van, did somebody then get into Jane's car and drive it by the police station to abandon it?

[Anya Cain]

And this is a Speedway police station.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Speedway police station. I don't know. Did Jane go somewhere and then come back? Was there a van and a police car? Was there no van at all? Is that just a lie? I don't know. I don't know why. Jane's car was discovered near a park by the Speedway police station.

[Anya Cain]

And in case you're wondering, oh, hey, well, maybe they drove her car out to the murder site, did what they did, and then brought it back to this. To Speedway. No. And the reason we know that is her car was serviced right before the murders. We know the speedometer does not support the fact that it went back to Johnson county and back. So, like, we know that that didn't happen. So what the heck happened? And this is. Again, this is the kind of like, it's. It's like. It's like Schrodinger's case. Like, we don't. Like there's so many unknown quantities that we can't even determine what's what or what's up and what's down because. What does that mean? Like, there's like, Burger Chef is the most baffling freaking case because they're just all these weird hinge points where it can go this way or that way, and it's so ambiguous that you can't even determine. And that's why we don't feel comfortable forming a theory until we really try to come down hard on one or another. Because it's. It's almost impossible to interpret. Like, you have to have almost, like, several different. Like, it's like a multiverse of theories where you have, like, okay, like, let's just assume this, and then we can kind of formulate something. Or let's assume that, and then we can kind of formulate something. And you almost have all these different possibilities. Maybe we should do that. Maybe we should just go back and look at all the different factors and just make, like, a tree of, like, okay, this leads us to this conclusion. This leads us to that conclusion. This leads us to this conclusion, and then just, like, go from there. Or maybe we can just, like, lose our minds entirely.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah, why don't you do that?

[Anya Cain]

I'm gonna, like, disappear for a month, come back totally insane. More so than usual. I don't know. Man, this case is just. It gnaws at you. It's just like. It really bothers me. It bothers me that we've been working on it for years, and I still don't feel comfortable telling people, giving people a straight answer when they ask me, who did it? Who do you think did it? I'm more confused than when I started, man.

[Kevin Greenlee]

The more I know about this case, the more I've learned about this case over the years, the less certain I am. There are probably as many as a dozen different possibilities that I find plausible, including that as somebody we don't even know, not even connected to drugs, but there's nothing to put me over the finish line, for lack of a better word, about any of them. It's maddening. It's maddening.

[Anya Cain]

This case is madness.

[Kevin Greenlee]

We are going to continue to work on it, but we're not going to do episodes unless we have something worth talking about.

[Anya Cain]

If Delphi was hel. Case is purgatory. You're just endlessly wandering around looking for something, and you don't even know what you're looking for, and you just. You know it. You're just stuck. Like, that's. That's what Burger Chef is. And so we appreciate all of you who ask questions and left comments for helping us maybe become unstuck and maybe start going in some different directions. And again, if you had grandparents, uncles, friends who were active, then you don't have to go up to them and say, hey, were you involved in cocaine? Or you don't pot, you don't. Don't do that. But what you can do is just start a conversation with them and sort of ask questions. And a lot of people enjoy talking about their past or their childhoods. And so if they can help us and we can just kind of get more information about what was going on back then, I think that would be super helpful. Or just rumors amongst kids. I mean, again, they might be rumors.

[Kevin Greenlee]

I should warn you, it can't be awkward because I tried to do that at a Christmas dinner once with your.

[Anya Cain]

Oh, yeah. I'm not gonna say whom, but yeah, I know what you're talking about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

And I said, hey, did you do drugs back in the 70s? Give me all the details. And are you.

[Anya Cain]

Are you wearing a wire?

[Kevin Greenlee]

Yeah. Didn't go as well as I might have hoped.

[Anya Cain]

Here. People who were. Are older now who did drugs in the 70s. No one's judging you. Okay. Hot's cool now, right? I mean, it's. It's. It's. It's not legal in Indiana, but it's like, basically people. I mean, it's. It's very much on the way in many states, and it's not seen as this social stigma as it once was. So no one cares if you smoked a bit of weed and, you know, you were buying it from someone. Like, just. It would be very helpful. It would be much more helpful to talk to people like that than to talk to people who are like, I saw this and they didn't. You know, again, some of those people are being honest. And we have talked to people who are like, I did see this, and I believe them. I'm not sure if it's relevant, but I believe them. We've talked to plenty of people like that, but it's just hard to know what's. What's. You know, if it's a good memory or if it's something they're kind of, you know, whatever. But then there's other people who are just looking for attention. It's the people who aren't coming forward that I want to hear from. It's the people who are like, yeah, I bought some pot, and here's how it worked. And, like, here's how much. Okay, here was how much drug debt I racked up. That's what I want to know about.

[Kevin Greenlee]

So is that it?

[Anya Cain]

I think that's it. Thank you all so much for listening and, you know, let us know if you guys. Oh, actually, I think there were two questions in our email, if you don't mind. I don't want to forget about those people.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Okay, go ahead.

[Anya Cain]

Yeah, two bonus questions. One question was, you know, just let me see. Somebody did send us, like, a screenshot of the Indianapolis Star talking about, like, a possible, you know, van. So I'll look more into that. That was, like, around a perch purse theft situation that might be interesting to look at. And another person actually sent us some archives. So thank you so much. These aren't even questions. These are just actually people providing us with resources, and this is why we do what we do, because people are always so helpful and kind and sort of giving us different leads to run down. And we salute you and thank you. So no questions, but just some things for us to kind of look into. Awesome. I guess that's it.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's it. Thank you so much. Thanks so much for listening to the Murder Sheet. If you have a tip concerning one of the cases we cover, please email [e-mail]. if you have actionable information about an unsolved crime, please report it to the appropriate authorities.

[Anya Cain]

If you're interested in joining our Patreon, that's available at www.patreon.com murdersheet if you want to tip us a bit of money for records requests, you can do so at www. Buymeacoffee.com murdersheet we very much appreciate any support.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Special thanks to Kevin Tyler Greenlee who composed the music for the Murder Sheet and who you can find on the [e-mail] if you're looking to talk with.

[Anya Cain]

Other listeners about a case we've covered, you can join the Murder Sheet Discussion Group on Facebook. We mostly focus our time on research and reporting, so we're not on social media much. We do try to check our email account, but we ask for patience as we often receive a lot of messages. Thanks again for listening. We've run into some pretty creepy people in our true crime journey and we've even gotten some threats as a result. Safety is often top of mind for Kevin and I.

[Kevin Greenlee]

That's why we trust our long term sponsor, SimpliSafe. SimpliSafe is a home security system that's both innovative and proactive. They're not just about sounding the alarm when someone breaks through your front door. They seek to prevent the break in from even happening. We've used them for years. The reason is the peace of mind they give us every day. Right now. Murder Sheet listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system. Just go to simplisafe.com msheet SimpliSafe deploys.

[Anya Cain]

So many technologies and techniques to keep you safe. I'm talking about AI powered cameras. Not to mention they're always looking out for you. Professional monitoring agents are on hand to intervene in real time. They'll switch on the two way audio to confront possible prowlers. Start blaring sirens and spotlights to get rid of them.

[Kevin Greenlee]

Simplisafe is great for renters and homeowners alike. You can customize your approach to home security. They've got lots of different options, but one constant is that you don't need to sign a long term contract. Between that and your 60 day money back guarantee, it's a cinch. Try out SimpliSafe today.

[Anya Cain]

Right now my listeners can save 50% on a SimpliSafe home security system at simplisafe.com msheet that's simplisafe.com msheet there's no safe like SimpliSafe with stays under $250 a night. VRBO makes it easy to celebrate sweater weather. You could book a cabin stay with leaf views for days, or a brownstone in a city where festivals are just a walk away. Or a lakeside home with a fire pit for cozy nights with friends. Or if you're not a sweater person, we can call it corduroy weather. More flexible and with stays under $250 a night, you can book a home that suits your exact needs. Book [e-mail].